are europe and the US really different? (OT?)
bpuharic
the US, due to fundamentalism, it turns out that the US and europe are
not as different as folks think:
http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/the-narcissism-minor-differences?page=0,0
SpaceMadness
It is true, theres a few creationists in my college class and they
take their marching orders from their reformed church who in turn
copies pretty much everything from the creationists in the united
states. Now thankfully religion is a private affair here more than it
is in the states, attempts to have creationism or "ID" made part of
the curriculum in the largely secular state funded school system
receive the welcome they deserve, plain dismissal. :)
It's pretty much a non issue here.
Bob Casanova
appeared in talk.origins, posted by SpaceMadness
<spacem...@gmail.com>:
>On 2 jan, 16:09, bpuharic <w...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> although creationism is a cultural phenomena generally associated with
>> the US, due to fundamentalism, it turns out that the US and europe are
>> not as different as folks think:
>>
>> http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/the-narcissism-minor-differences?...
>
>It is true, theres a few creationists in my college class and they
>take their marching orders from their reformed church who in turn
>copies pretty much everything from the creationists in the united
>states. Now thankfully religion is a private affair here more than it
>is in the states
....finally, after at least 2000 years of religious
persecution and warfare...
>, attempts to have creationism or "ID" made part of
>the curriculum in the largely secular state funded school system
>receive the welcome they deserve, plain dismissal. :)
>
>It's pretty much a non issue here.
Keep watching; it may not stay that way. It only takes one
fanatical side to create a pogrom, as was shown far too many
times in European history. The latest involving Christians
was less than a century ago, and the current one involving
radical Islam is ongoing.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
Dan Listermann
"Bob Casanova" <nos...@buzz.off> wrote in message
news:7d7vj5phvtrj3b30k...@4ax.com...
.
David Hare-Scott
Where is 'here'?
David
Iain
> although creationism is a cultural phenomena generally associated with
> the US, due to fundamentalism, it turns out that the US and europe are
> not as different as folks think:
I, thay ar alike in natural intelligense, but the new territories hav
the more aggressiv religion, and ar the wurse for it.
--Iain
Iain
> On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 07:20:34 -0800 (PST), the following
> appeared in talk.origins, posted by SpaceMadness
>
> >On 2 jan, 16:09, bpuharic <w...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> although creationism is a cultural phenomena generally associated with
> >> the US, due to fundamentalism, it turns out that the US and europe are
> >> not as different as folks think:
>
> >>http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/the-narcissism-minor-differences?...
>
> >It is true, theres a few creationists in my college class and they
> >take their marching orders from their reformed church who in turn
> >copies pretty much everything from the creationists in the united
> >states. Now thankfully religion is a private affair here more than it
> >is in the states
>
> ....finally, after at least 2000 years of religious
> persecution and warfare...
>
> >, attempts to have creationism or "ID" made part of
> >the curriculum in the largely secular state funded school system
> >receive the welcome they deserve, plain dismissal. :)
>
> >It's pretty much a non issue here.
>
> Keep watching; it may not stay that way. It only takes one
> fanatical side to create a pogrom, as was shown far too many
> times in European history. The latest involving Christians
> was less than a century ago, and the current one involving
> radical Islam is ongoing.
Thare is a new right wing emerging in Europe. One that is suspicious
of efforts to create a wurld made one, and of science overaul, and
that mistakenly bethinks fundamentalist Christianity to be part of a
package deel needed of thwart the leftist conspiracy.
--Iain
J. J. Lodder
Extreme right wing politics and fundamentalist christianity
are entirely different things in most parts of Europe,
Jan
Mike Lyle
> Iain <iain_i...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
[...]
>> Thare is a new right wing emerging in Europe. One that is suspicious
>> of efforts to create a wurld made one, and of science overaul, and
>> that mistakenly bethinks fundamentalist Christianity to be part of a
>> package deel needed of thwart the leftist conspiracy.
>
> Extreme right wing politics and fundamentalist christianity
> are entirely different things in most parts of Europe,
>
anti-clerical, Disneyesque pagan, or scary-Catholic. But I fancy I may
be seeing signs of a sort of "US Republican envy" in a few of the UK's
loony right: the deeply sane and balanced philanthropist Melanie
Phillips, for example, is flirting with, if not Creationism, then at
least anti-"Darwinism".
--
Mike.
Bob Casanova
talk.origins, posted by "Dan Listermann"
<d...@listermann.com>:
Point; thanks.
Bob Casanova
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Iain
<iain_i...@hotmail.com>:
So, what's old is new again. OK.
Ron O
When I went to the ISAG 2008 Genetics meeting in Amsterdam the dutch
scientists were embarassed by their northern compartiots young earth
creationist fiasco that was brewing. They had some term for them, but
I can't remember it. One of them told me that it was equivalent to
"hillbilly" in the US.
Ron Okimoto
Ron O
> Ron O wrote:
> > When I went to the ISAG 2008 Genetics meeting in Amsterdam the dutch
> > scientists were embarassed by their northern compartiots young earth
> > creationist fiasco that was brewing. �They had some term for them, but I
> > can't remember it. �One of them told me that it was equivalent to
> > "hillbilly" in the US.
>
Does it mean ignorant redneck hick?
Ron Okimoto
Kleuskes & Moos
> Ron O wrote:
> > scientists were embarassed by their northern compartiots young earth
> > creationist fiasco that was brewing. They had some term for them, but I
> > can't remember it. One of them told me that it was equivalent to
> > "hillbilly" in the US.
>
Heikneuters?
Kleuskes & Moos
Hmmmm... At least one of the graphs is utterly misleading: the length
of railways (per capita), where the netherlands (relatively small and
densely populated) scores quite low. Now if we calculate the total
length of railways per square mile/kilometer, the outcome would be
drastically different.
"Lies, big lies and statistics" as the quote has it.
Free Lunch
<kle...@xs4all.nl> wrote in talk.origins:
Railway km per capita seems to be a rough approximation of density.
The freight difference might be worth looking into, but I have never
seen that claim about freight share before.
J. J. Lodder
RAM
"Lies, damn lies and statistics" is how I learned it. Often
attributed to Mark Twain or Benjamin Disraeli but actually the first
published report in 1995 is by Leonard H. Courtney a British
politician and president of the Royal Statistical Society.
J. J. Lodder
> On Jan 2, 9:09 am, bpuharic <w...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > although creationism is a cultural phenomena generally associated with
> > the US, due to fundamentalism, it turns out that the US and europe are
> > not as different as folks think:
> >
> > http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/the-narcissism-minor-differences?...
>
> When I went to the ISAG 2008 Genetics meeting in Amsterdam the dutch
> scientists were embarassed by their northern compartiots young earth
> creationist fiasco that was brewing.
Must have been a quite minor event.
Jan
J. J. Lodder
Creationismand Intelligent design in the American sense
doesn't exist in Europe. (except as an import product)
American developments have been driven by lost lawsuits
which are not of relevance in Europe.
What does exist in Europe is good old-fashioned
protestant fundamentalism,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
The Netherlands have the heaviest used railway network
in the world.
It's overloaded, many tracks are being doubled,
and level crossings (hence switches)
are being eliminated to increase capacity further.
Jan
Nick Keighley
> http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/the-narcissism-minor-differences?...
I didn't see any mention of creationism or funcdamentalism in the
article.
The railways and poverty stats looked a little odd.
Nick Keighley
I'd noticed no science scepticism in the UKs right wing. Do other
parts of europe have such a thing?
> and
> that mistakenly bethinks fundamentalist Christianity to be part of a
> package deel needed of thwart the leftist conspiracy.
>
> --Iain- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
gregwrld
> Ron O wrote:
> > scientists were embarassed by their northern compartiots young earth
> > creationist fiasco that was brewing. �They had some term for them, but I
> > can't remember it. �One of them told me that it was equivalent to
> > "hillbilly" in the US.
>
Are there many hills in The
Netherlands? (Never been there)
gregwrld
Ye Old One
Yes, but only in the south.
--
Bob.
J. J. Lodder
Her website doesn't give recent hints on 'Darwin' supporting this,
Jan
Kleuskes & Moos
There are some. We like to call them mountans, to the never ending
amusement of austrians and swiss.
Kleuskes & Moos
I stand corrected. Thanks.
Wombat
Where I live 40km north of Amsterdam it is so flat that it has been
remarked that if you stand on a bucket you can see half of Noord
Holland.
Wombat
Mike Lyle
> Mike Lyle <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
>> Yes indeed: the European fascistic tendency has always tended to be
>> anti-clerical, Disneyesque pagan, or scary-Catholic. But I fancy I
>> may be seeing signs of a sort of "US Republican envy" in a few of
>> the UK's loony right: the deeply sane and balanced philanthropist
>> Melanie Phillips, for example, is flirting with, if not Creationism,
>> then at least anti-"Darwinism".
>
> Her website doesn't give recent hints on 'Darwin' supporting this,
>
School? If so, it's good to know.
<http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/000756.html>
There are bits like:
"...But secularists, including the militant atheist and evangelist for
Darwin Professor Richard Dawkins, are enraged. They say that the school�s
fundamentalist Christian teachers are undermining the scientific
teaching of biology."
and
"...But evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it."
--
Mike.
Dan Listermann
"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hi2rds$8nt$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
So tell us how creationism is hole free!
.
Ye Old One
group when s/he wrote:
>> Yes, but only in the south.
>
>So the answer should really be: no, there aren't many. Only a few in the
>extreme south and they are not very impressive (highest elevation just
>over 300 meters above sea level I thought).
Well I know there is a big tower on top of one of the highest from
which, iirc, you can see Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium and of course
The Netherlands.
>
>But they are impressive to the flatlanders from Holland, of course.
Of course. I think I'm right in saying a lot of the Dutch holiday in
the Limburg region.
--
Bob.
It doesn't matter what temperature the room is. It's always
room-temperature.
Mark Isaak
>
> "Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:hi2rds$8nt$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> [...]
>>>
>> You say "recent": has she changed since this 2002 piece about Emmanuel
>> School? If so, it's good to know.
>> <http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/000756.html>
>>
>> There are bits like:
>> "...But secularists, including the militant atheist and evangelist for
>> Darwin Professor Richard Dawkins, are enraged. They say that the
>> school's fundamentalist Christian teachers are undermining the
>> scientific teaching of biology."
>> and
>> "...But evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it."
>>
> So tell us how creationism is hole free!
Creationism is a hole with holes in it. They sort of cancel out.
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume
john wilkins
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:52:28 -0500, Dan Listermann wrote:
>
> >
> > "Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:hi2rds$8nt$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>>
> >> You say "recent": has she changed since this 2002 piece about
> > > Emmanuel
> >> School? If so, it's good to know.
> >> <http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/000756.html>
> >>
> >> There are bits like:
> >> "...But secularists, including the militant atheist and evangelist
> > > for
> >> Darwin Professor Richard Dawkins, are enraged. They say that the
> >> school's fundamentalist Christian teachers are undermining the
> >> scientific teaching of biology."
> >> and
> >> "...But evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it."
> >>
> > So tell us how creationism is hole free!
>
> Creationism is a hole with holes in it. They sort of cancel out.
Creationism is what's left behind when you take away the explanatory
holes.
J. J. Lodder
Wrong.
Just ook at the distribution of place names
with -berg in them.
A typical one, Hillegersberg (nowadays part of Rotterdam)
has a 'berg' (Dutch for mountain) of less than 10 m.
To get the idea you can look at
<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Hillegersberg_Rotter
dam_007.jpg>
The church (at the core of the medieval vilage)
is built on top of the 'berg',
(which is a natural formation, relief inversion)
Jan
J. J. Lodder
J. J. Lodder
Their 'ebene' is equally amusing,
to flatlanders,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> On 4 jan, 00:16, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
> > Ron O wrote:
> > > When I went to the ISAG 2008 Genetics meeting in Amsterdam the dutch
> > > scientists were embarassed by their northern compartiots young earth
> > > creationist fiasco that was brewing. They had some term for them, but I
> > > can't remember it. One of them told me that it was equivalent to
> > > "hillbilly" in the US.
> >
> > Boerenpummels?
>
> Heikneuters?
The only equivalent expression I can think of is 'Tukkers'.
(which of course doesn't have the same connotations)
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Mike Lyle <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> [...]
> >> Yes indeed: the European fascistic tendency has always tended to be
> >> anti-clerical, Disneyesque pagan, or scary-Catholic. But I fancy I
> >> may be seeing signs of a sort of "US Republican envy" in a few of
> >> the UK's loony right: the deeply sane and balanced philanthropist
> >> Melanie Phillips, for example, is flirting with, if not Creationism,
> >> then at least anti-"Darwinism".
> >
> > Her website doesn't give recent hints on 'Darwin' supporting this,
> >
> You say "recent": has she changed since this 2002 piece about Emmanuel
> School? If so, it's good to know.
> <http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/000756.html>
I say 'recent' because I only looked at recent,
based on your 'is'.
> There are bits like:
> "...But secularists, including the militant atheist and evangelist for
> Darwin Professor Richard Dawkins, are enraged. They say that the school's
> fundamentalist Christian teachers are undermining the scientific
> teaching of biology."
> and
> "...But evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it."
Would you be willing to claim that there are no holes in it?
A forteriori, that there is any scientific theory
(still worked upon) without holes in it?
Jan
richardal...@googlemail.com
wrote:
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> [...]
> >> Thare is a new right wing emerging in Europe. One that is suspicious
> >> of efforts to create a wurld made one, and of science overaul, and
> >> that mistakenly bethinks fundamentalist Christianity to be part of a
> >> package deel needed of thwart the leftist conspiracy.
>
> > Extreme right wing politics and fundamentalist christianity
> > are entirely different things in most parts of Europe,
>
> anti-clerical, Disneyesque pagan, or scary-Catholic. But I fancy I may
> be seeing signs of a sort of "US Republican envy" in a few of the UK's
> loony right: the deeply sane and balanced philanthropist Melanie
> Phillips, for example, is flirting with, if not Creationism, then at
> least anti-"Darwinism".
>
> Mike.
Melanie Phillips has come out very firmly in support of "intelligent
design", asserting that it is a scientific theory.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3573761/creating-an-insult-to-intelligence.thtml
RF
Burkhard
Isn't it also a common toponym? I've worked with a couple of
Vandenberges, van den Bergs, etc (or is this simnple because they are
very tall ;o))
J. J. Lodder
> On Jan 7, 10:54 am, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
> > gregwrld <GCzeba...@msn.com> wrote:
> > > On Jan 3, 6:16 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
> > > > Ron O wrote:
> > > > > When I went to the ISAG 2008 Genetics meeting in Amsterdam the
> > > > > dutch scientists were embarassed by their northern compartiots
> > > > > young earth creationist fiasco that was brewing. They had some
> > > > > term for them, but I can't remember it. One of them told me that
> > > > > it was equivalent to "hillbilly" in the US.
> >
> > > > Boerenpummels?
> >
> > > Are there many hills in The
> > > Netherlands? (Never been there)
> >
> > A great many. (in the east and south)
> > A typical heigt is 100 m,
> >
> > Jan
>
> Isn't it also a common toponym?
Yes, there are quite a lot of -berg places,
also in the flat wester parts of the country.
The 'berg' they base their name on
may be barely noticable in the landscape.
I suspect some of the 'bergs'
were a burg or burcht originaly.
> I've worked with a couple of
> Vandenberges, van den Bergs, etc (or is this simnple because they are
> very tall ;o))
Van den Berg (and variants) is a very common family name,
(some of them seem to have succesfully moved to the USA)
Jan
Ron O
> On 4 jan, 00:16, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Ron O wrote:
> > > When I went to the ISAG 2008 Genetics meeting in Amsterdam the dutch
> > > scientists were embarassed by their northern compartiots young earth
> > > creationist fiasco that was brewing. �They had some term for them, but I
> > > can't remember it. �One of them told me that it was equivalent to
> > > "hillbilly" in the US.
>
> > Boerenpummels?
>
It did start with an "H" and I think that they were referring to the
agricultural dairy land in the North.
Ron Okimoto
Kleuskes & Moos
Tsk, tsk, tsk... we're not getting personal, are we?
J. J. Lodder
alextangent
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> [..]
>
>>> Isn't it also a common toponym?
>>
>> Yes, there are quite a lot of -berg places,
>> also in the flat wester parts of the country.
>> The 'berg' they base their name on
>> may be barely noticable in the landscape.
>> I suspect some of the 'bergs'
>> were a burg or burcht originaly.
>
Derived from the Old English burh, a "fortified town or other defended
site, such as a hill fort." Hence the connection with hills.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/burh
Burkhard
> Burkhard <b.scha...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> > On Jan 7, 10:54 am, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
> > > gregwrld <GCzeba...@msn.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jan 3, 6:16 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
> > > > > Ron O wrote:
> > > > > > When I went to the ISAG 2008 Genetics meeting in Amsterdam the
> > > > > > dutch scientists were embarassed by their northern compartiots
> > > > > > young earth creationist fiasco that was brewing. �They had some
> > > > > > term for them, but I can't remember it. �One of them told me that
> > > > > > it was equivalent to "hillbilly" in the US.
>
> > > > > Boerenpummels?
>
> > > > Are there many hills in The
> > > > Netherlands? (Never been there)
>
> > > A great many. (in the east and south)
> > > A typical heigt is 100 m,
>
> > > Jan
>
> > Isn't it also a common toponym?
>
> Yes, there are quite a lot of -berg places,
> also in the flat wester parts of the country.
> The 'berg' they base their name on
> may be barely noticable in the landscape.
> I suspect some of the 'bergs'
> were a burg or burcht originaly.
Ah, the sort of place that needs a hard Burk to defend itself - I
really should have thought of that ;o)
Mike Lyle
> Mike Lyle <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> Mike Lyle <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> Yes indeed: the European fascistic tendency has always tended to be
>>>> anti-clerical, Disneyesque pagan, or scary-Catholic. But I fancy I
>>>> may be seeing signs of a sort of "US Republican envy" in a few of
>>>> the UK's loony right: the deeply sane and balanced philanthropist
>>>> Melanie Phillips, for example, is flirting with, if not
>>>> Creationism, then at least anti-"Darwinism".
>>>
>>> Her website doesn't give recent hints on 'Darwin' supporting this,
>>>
>> You say "recent": has she changed since this 2002 piece about
>> Emmanuel School? If so, it's good to know.
>> <http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/000756.html>
>
> I say 'recent' because I only looked at recent,
> based on your 'is'.
Yes, but what range counts as "recent" for you in this context? I was
hoping you could bring me up to date. My impression from hearing her
remarks in the last year or two is that she's still apparently flirting
with American-style loony Right politics (which, as you know, don't
match a ready-made template in British thinking).
>
>> There are bits like:
>> "...But secularists, including the militant atheist and evangelist
>> for Darwin Professor Richard Dawkins, are enraged. They say that the
>> school's fundamentalist Christian teachers are undermining the
>> scientific teaching of biology."
>> and
>> "...But evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it."
>
> Would you be willing to claim that there are no holes in it?
> A forteriori, that there is any scientific theory
> (still worked upon) without holes in it?
>
Jan, you're getting disputatious: that's most unusual for you. I dare
say I'm not the only person who knows what it means when an extreme-ish
conservative says "evolution is not a fact. It's a theory..." After
that, any mention of holes is mere ornamentation. I await your
disagreement with resignation, but without trepidation.
--
Mike.
rmacfarl
"nmp" <add...@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:4b466013$0$22940$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>
> But perhaps "holbewoner"? (=caveman)
>
>
You don't mean "Holstein" do you? That's what Americans call the
breed of black & white dairy cattle I know as "Frisians"...
J. J. Lodder
J. J. Lodder
> Sorry I can't think of anything so specific with an H.
>
> But perhaps "holbewoner"? (=caveman)
I'm not aware of any 'creationist fiasco' in 2008 in the Netherlands,
either brewing,, surfacing or developping, or whatever. Nothing, nada.
Perhaps Ron O could help this guessing game
by telling us what the supposed fiasco was about?
Jan
Mike Lyle
Holsteins are, as far as I know, a strain of Friesians, rather than
simply renamed. Both are found in the same regions. But both tend to
exemplify the ruthless modern approach to breeding, though: follow a few
limping cows kicking their own udders for a while for sad evidence.
--
Mike.
J. J. Lodder
J. J. Lodder
> I suspect "fiasco" is only a slightly sarcastic/jocular overstatement.
> When was that creationist national flyer campaign?
Last year, iirc, and certainly later than 2008.
> It was more hilarious than it was a fiasco, but it did cause some debates
> here and there.
>
> It did remind us, too, that creationism never ceased to exist in the
> Netherlands.
Creationism never existed in the Netherlands.
What did (and does) exist is honest protestant fundamentalim.
> Which is still an embarrasment.
Why?d
> It should have disappeared just like smallpox.
The Netherlands aren't doing too badly,
with over 50% 'buitenkerkelijken'.
(people not belonging to any church)
> But when America sneezes...
The lice come out of the woodwork,
Jan
Ron O
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> Ron O wrote:
> >> > On Jan 4, 6:01 am, "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleu...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >> >> On 4 jan, 00:16, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
> >> >> > Ron O wrote:
> >> >> > > When I went to the ISAG 2008 Genetics meeting in Amsterdam the
> >> >> > > dutch scientists were embarassed by their northern compartiots
> >> >> > > young earth creationist fiasco that was brewing. �They had some
> >> >> > > term for them, but I can't remember it. �One of them told me
> >> >> > > that it was equivalent to "hillbilly" in the US.
>
> >> >> > Boerenpummels?
>
> >> >> Heikneuters?
>
> >> > It did start with an "H" and I think that they were referring to the
> >> > agricultural dairy land in the North.
>
> >> Sorry I can't think of anything so specific with an H.
>
> >> But perhaps "holbewoner"? (=caveman)
>
> > I'm not aware of any 'creationist fiasco' in 2008 in the Netherlands,
> > either brewing,, surfacing or developping, or whatever. Nothing, nada.
>
> > Perhaps Ron O could help this guessing game by telling us what the
> > supposed fiasco was about?
>
> than it was a fiasco, but it did cause some debates here and there.
>
> It did remind us, too, that creationism never ceased to exist in the
> just like smallpox.
>
> But when America sneezes...-
This was in 2008 and for some reason the Dutch YEC creationist
contingent was making noises. I took some jabs at the Dutch
scientists because several years before some of them couldn't believe
that the US could have such problems in this modern age.
Ron Okimoto
J. J. Lodder
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Burkhard <b.sc...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> [..]
>
> >> Isn't it also a common toponym?
> >
> > Yes, there are quite a lot of -berg places,
> > also in the flat wester parts of the country.
> > The 'berg' they base their name on
> > may be barely noticable in the landscape.
> > I suspect some of the 'bergs'
> > were a burg or burcht originaly.
>
> Right, it is the same word as the English "borough".
Dutch has both '-burg' and '-berg' in place names.
They can't be interchanged arbitrarily,
Jan
heekster
>Noone suggests they can. Language is never that simple.
You got that right.
Here is a quick list of cognates and their meanings, and etymologies.
Note that ? marks below represent the letter "Ezh"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezh_%28letter%29
borough �fortress; town (orig. fortified) OE.; town of a certain
(political) status XVI. OE. burg, burh = OS. burg, OHG. burug (G.
burg), ON. borg, Goth. baurgs :- Gmc. *bur?s, rel. to *ber?an protect,
shelter (Cf. BORROW, BURY).
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-borough.html
burgh Sc. form of BOROUGH
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-burgh.html
Burgh
Burgh, Borough, Bury (Teut.),' a fortified place,' 'a town;' as
Edinburgh, Peterborough, Shrewsbury, Hamburg, Cherbourg, Carisbrook,
Burgos. [A.S. byrig, Ger. burg.] Burn (N. Eng. and Scot.), 'a brook;'
as Burnfoot, Blackburn, Tyburn, Eastbourne. By (Scand.), 'a dwelling,'
' a town;' as Derby, Rugby, Whitby,
http://chestofbooks.com/travel/reference/World-Gazetteer/Etymology-Of-Place-Names.html
Berg means mountain or hill, see iceberg, Bergspitze, Zauberberg. It
can also mean cairn, as used for a grave marker.
berch, barrow, bjarg,
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/germet&text_number=++93&root=config
Berg
Berg, Borough (A.S. beorh), 'a hill;' as Ingle-borough, Flamborough
Head, Queensberry, Browberg Hill, Konigsberg, Bergen. [From the same
root as Burgh.]
http://chestofbooks.com/travel/reference/World-Gazetteer/Etymology-Of-Place-Names.html
Burg is associated with watch-tower, or borough, and in German, with
castle.
Gothic: b?rg-s f. (cons) `city; fortified place; tower'; *b?rgja m.
(n) `citizen
Old Norse: borg f. `Wall, Burg, Stadt'; b�rgi n. `umhegter Platz,
Burg, Schanze'
Norwegian: borg; b�rge (in ON)
Swedish: borg
Danish: borg
Old English: burg, burh `Burg, Stadt'; eor?-byrg `Erdwerk, Ufer,
H�gel'
English: barrow; borough, burrow, -bury
Old Frisian: burich, burch
Old Saxon: burg
Middle Dutch: borch, burch f. (/m., n.), borcht `burcht, vlek, stad'
Dutch: burcht, burg m., f.
Middle Low German: borch
Old High German: burg 'Burg, Stadt' (8.Jh.)
Middle High German: burc st. f. 'burg, schloss, stadt'
German: Burg f.
http://tinyurl.com/yj89ofq
Hope this is of some help.
Etymology database queries.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?basename=\data\ie\germet&root=config&morpho=0
List of databases.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/main.cgi?root=config
J. J. Lodder
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > nmp <add...@is.invalid> wrote:
>
> [..]
>
> >> It did remind us, too, that creationism never ceased to exist in the
> >> Netherlands.
> >
> > Creationism never existed in the Netherlands. What did (and does) exist
> > is honest protestant fundamentalim.
>
> What is so honest about fundamentalism, protestant or otherwise?
They genuinly and honestly believe in it.
(at least some of them)
> "Creationism never existed in the Netherlands" is something I really
> can't agree with. Or perhaps you are using some strange definition of
> creationism that I don't share with you.
Creationism is an American aberation.
It is the pretence that the 'theory of creation' is a scientific theory,
that can and should be taught as science.
The raison d'etre for this were American 'equal time' doctrines,
and the outcomes of American court cases.
Nothing like it existed in the Netherlands,
until it was imported from the US.
> People who believe that the
> universe was created by their God in 6 days or that God let everything
> evolve except humans, which he created on some special occasion, are
> certainly creationists in my book.
Nothing wrong with believing that,
as long as it's just that, a belief,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> Ron O wrote:
>
> > This was in 2008 and for some reason the Dutch YEC creationist
> > contingent was making noises.
>
> I still think it was probably the flyer campaign. Jan is right that it
> happened last year, but it was already announced with some fanfare in
> 2008.
Ron's confrence was mid 2008.
Too early for this I think.
> Exactly what sort of creationists were behind it you can see on
> their list of recommended websites in English:
> <http://www.creatie.info/engels-websites-58.html>
That's why I said it's a case of
'the lice are coming out of the woodwork'
> They had their flyer delivered to every household in the country.
>
> > I took some jabs at the Dutch scientists because several years before
> > some of them couldn't believe that the US could have such problems in
> > this modern age.
>
> Right. Of course it is rather incredible.
Why? The 'bijbelbelt' is a permanent feature
of the Dutch political landscape.
And the most stable one,
Jan
Wombat
One of my daughter's teachers tried to teach creationism in science
class.
He was ejected from the school immediately.
Wombat
J. J. Lodder
Of course.
Dutch schools must satisfy national quality standards,
and there is an inspection of education
to make sure that they do,
Jan