The whole Jew thing
Excession
Thanksgiving. It just doesn't come up in day to day life.
But in American TV shows and films, the very act of existing and being
of Jewish extraction, appears to be a curse.
Other than exceptionally large noses and an odd set of religious
notions, plus a huge problem with the whole Holocaust thing (I haven't
mentioned Nazi's yet, not really), Jewish people are just people.
Why the fuck are they so reviled and hated? Oh, there's the Shylock
thing, money-grubbing because they are that way inclined -- but so are
the Dutch and the Scottish and quite a lot of America has a 'penny
saved is a penny earned' culture. You don't see Dutch people getting
a global "ambulatory colostomy bag" labelling? (Well, not often).
The hate against the Jews is one thing, the fucking total paranoia of
Jews about -everything- is another. Isn't Woody Allan Jewish? Or if
I said 'Kent, you're a fucking Jew' would he be really, I mean,
mortally offended? (not that I think Kent is anything other than
mentally different to most others).
No, I don't want Nazi sympathisers knocking on my virtual door or my
real door, threatening to edjumacate me about the implicit evil that
comes of being Jewish. Just a few lines of semi-rational explanation.
The whole 'Jews killed Christ' thing is just ancient, is that all it
is?
--
David Andrew Clayton # Please rot13 my email address
q...@cpht.bet.nh # before sending email replies.
I post therefore I am. # uggc://jjj.cpht.bet.nh/~qnp <-- rot13
imbibe@mindspring.com (David Polewka)
Excession wrote:
> Here in Australia, the concept of 'jewish' is as fleeting as
> Thanksgiving. It just doesn't come up in day to day life.
>
> But in American TV shows and films, the very act of existing and being
> of Jewish extraction, appears to be a curse.
>
> Other than exceptionally large noses and an odd set of religious
> notions, plus a huge problem with the whole Holocaust thing (I haven't
> mentioned Nazi's yet, not really), Jewish people are just people.
>
> Why the fuck are they so reviled and hated?
In Israel, they're fighting over land and water more than they are
over access to the Holy City or what happened 2000 years ago.
Population control everywhere would go a long way in fixing that
problem.
Elsewhere, politicians use the Jews as a way to divert attention
from their own inability or unwillingness to do the right thing
regarding
their nation's economic affairs. Less government interference in the
economy everywhere would be the remedy for that disease.
Ace Lightning
>Here in Australia, the concept of 'jewish' is as fleeting as
>Thanksgiving. It just doesn't come up in day to day life.
i understand that there are some places in Australia that
have a very concentrated Orthodox Jewish population, though.
>But in American TV shows and films, the very act of existing and being
>of Jewish extraction, appears to be a curse.
but many Jews wind up in the entertainment business, both
as talent (like Woody Allen, Barbra Streisand, Irving Berlin)
and management (like the "Goldwyn" and "Mayer" in MGM). for
a long time, "comedian" almost always implied "Jewish", unless
some other ethnicity was specified. and, of course, a lot
of the vocabulary of show biz comes from Yiddish - shtik,
nosh, yenta, schlemiel, bubbela...
America's major cities all have sizable Jewish populations.
especially New York - no matter what ethnicity you are in
NYC, you're also at least a little bit Jewish, just by
proximity. (also a little bit Irish and a little bit Italian.
those three waves of immigrants were the foundation of New
York as we know it today.) in the comparatively Jew-deficient
heartland of the country, "New York" is often a code word for
"Jewish", from "New York style cheesecake" to "those pushy
New Yorkers".
this, and America's vociferous political support of Israel, are
probably why most people in Arabic countries think that the
population of the US is somewhere between 60% and 90% Jewish.
the actual figure is somewhere between 2% and 5%.
>The whole 'Jews killed Christ' thing is just ancient, is that all it
>is?
it's a bit more complicated than that. in the Middle Ages,
the Jews refused to convert to Christianity. Christian
doctrine included the idea that the life, teachings, death,
and resurrection of Jesus were the fulfillment of what God
had already foreshadowed in the Old Testament. therefore,
all Jews were "supposed" to become Christians. their refusal
was seen to be a deliberate slap in the face to Christianity.
on top of that, Christianity considered "usury" - the practice
of charging interest on a loan - to be a sin, but the Jews did
not. so most money-lenders, pawnshop owners, and bankers were
Jewish. this meant that these Jews had control over the Gentiles'
money. and everybody who isn't rich envies and hates people who
*are* rich.
so... they're rich, they keep to themselves a lot, they have
a secret language, they practice a religion the average joe
doesn't understand, they eat weird foods (and refuse to eat
perfectly ordinary things like pork). any time the local
leadership needs a scapegoat, to distract the populace from a
war or a plague or a corrupt cardinal's shenanigans... blame
the Jews! execute them for heresy, burn their homes, confiscate
their wealth, drive the survivors out! the Austrian painter with
the funny mustache was only one of the more recent Jew-haters...
but he *was* responsible for so many of them winding up in the US.
nikolai kingsley
> Here in Australia, the concept of 'jewish' is as fleeting as
> Thanksgiving. It just doesn't come up in day to day life.
if you lived next door to Ricky, it would. she's in the heart of
Moschiach Territory. whenever there's some Jewish festival on, she hears
about it whether she wants to or not. good thing is, you don't get a lot
of mormons.
Mr. Greenjeans
If there is no self, whose arthritis is this?
Drink tea and nourish life. With the first
sip-joy. With the second...satisfaction. With the
third,-peace. With the fourth, a danish.
Wherever you go, there you are. Your luggage is
another story.
Accept misfortune as a blessing. Do not wish for
perfect health or a life without problems. What
would you talk about?
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single
"oy."
There is no escaping karma. In a previous life,
you never called, you never wrote, you never
visited. And whose fault was that?
Be here now. Be someplace else later. Is that so
complicated?
Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain
nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkes.
The Tao does not speak. The Tao does not blame.
The Tao does not take sides. The Tao has no
expectations. The Tao demands nothing of others.
The Tao is not Jewish.
Breathe in. Breathe out. Breathe in. Breathe out.
Forget this and attaining Enlightenment will be
the least of your problems.
Let your mind be as a floating cloud. Let your
stillness be as the wooded glen. And sit up
straight. You'll never meet the Buddha with such
rounded shoulders.
Be patient and achieve all things. Be impatient and
achieve all things faster.
To Find the Buddha, look within. Deep inside you
are ten thousand flowers. Each flower blossoms
ten thousand times. Each blossom has ten thousand
petals. You might want to see a specialist.
To practice Zen and the art of Jewish motorcycle
maintenance, do the following:
Get rid of the motorcycle. What were you thinking?
Be aware of your body. Be aware of your
perceptions. Keep in mind that not every physical
sensation is a symptom of a terminal illness.
The Torah says,"Love thy neighbor as thyself."
The Buddha says there is no "self." So, maybe you
are off the hook.
Mr. Greenjeans
> especially New York - no matter what ethnicity you are in
> NYC, you're also at least a little bit Jewish, just by
> proximity. (also a little bit Irish and a little bit Italian.
> those three waves of immigrants were the foundation of New
> York as we know it today.) in the comparatively Jew-deficient
> heartland of the country, "New York" is often a code word for
> "Jewish", from "New York style cheesecake" to "those pushy
> New Yorkers".
'Dig: I'm Jewish. Count Basie's Jewish. Ray
Charles is Jewish. Eddie Cantor's goyish. B'nai
Brith is goyish; Hadassah, Jewish.
If you live in New York or any other big city, you
are Jewish. It doesn't matter even if you're
Catholic; if you live in New York, you're Jewish.
If you live in Butte, Montana, you're going to be
goyish even if you're Jewish.
Kool-Aid is goyish. Evaporated milk is goyish even
if the Jews invented it. Chocolate is Jewish and
fudge is goyish. Fruit salad is Jewish. Lime jello
is goyish. Lime soda is very goyish.
All Drake's Cakes are goyish. Pumpernickel is
Jewish and, as you know, white bread is very goyish.
Instant potatoes, goyish. Black cherry soda's
very Jewish, macaroons are very Jewish.
Negroes are all Jews. Italians are all Jews.
Irishmen who have rejected their religion are Jews.
Mouths are very Jewish. And bosoms.
Baton-twirling is very goyish.
Underwear is definitely goyish. Balls are goyish.
Titties are Jewish.
Celebrate is a goyish word. Observe is a Jewish
word. Mr. and Mrs. Walsh are celebrating
Christmas with Major Thomas Moreland USAF (ret.),
while Mr. and Mrs. Bromberg observed Hanukkah with
Goldie and Arthur Schindler from Kiamesha, New York.'
-Lenny Bruce
imbibe@mindspring.com (David Polewka)
Mr. Greenjeans wrote:
>
> Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain
> nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkes.
http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/vol04/vol04.247
2)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 94 11:59:35 CST
From: msw...@facstaff.wisc.edu
Subject: Bupkes
Re: Dan Leeson's query. Bupkes (or "bubkes") means "beans", in Yiddish
as in English a thing of little value. In my shtetl (E. Flatbush, mid
'50s) it was vulgarly used to mean "snot", and it wasn't till I
actually
studied Yiddish that I learned the primary meaning of this word. Don't
think it had any connotation of "goat shit"--what did we know from
goats
in B'klyn.
Meyshe-Yankl Sweet
3)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 94 12:45:36 EST
From: eeglc%cunyvm...@yalevm.cis.yale.edu
Subject: Bobkes
To Dan Leeson:
My understanding of the origin of Bupkes is that "bob" is a Slavic word
for bean. One diminutive form, bobkes, has been narrowed in meaning so
that the word is used only in its abstract sense, which you accurately
described as "something of little or no value; cheap". A former
companion
of mine used it to mean the little balls of lint and pieces of candy
wrappers he would find in his pants pockets; each individual piece was
called a bupkes, and when there were lots of them, he'd refer to them
as
"bupkeses". That is definitely NOT real Yiddish; I mention it as one of
countless developments that take place with Yiddish words when passed
down from a native speaker (his worrying, nagging mother) to a son who
had almost no knowledge of the language.
Anyway, many (most?) Yiddish words ending in a voiced consonant lose
the
voice when a suffix beginning with a hard consonant is added. The
opposite is also true. I heard the actress/singer Miriam Kressyn say on
a
WEVD program Hirzhbm for Hirschbein. The word to calculate, to reckon,
romanized as kheshbenen is pronounced khezhbenen. To get back to
"bupkes", if you want to talk about real small beans, you call them
beblekh. There's an analogy in German, where the word Waffen, derived
from High German, means weapons, and its doublet from Low German,
Wappen,
is used for a more abstract word, coat-of-arms. I realize that's not an
exact analogy, but I think you get the picture.
Ir must mir moykhl zayn; s'iz kimat erev nitl, un bay undz goyim frest
men kolerley zise zakhn. Mayn kerper hot tsores mit tsuker, un mit eyn
sho tsurik hob ikh arayngeshlungen gantsene kest shokolade. Es zhumet
mir
der kop!
Vintsht mir ale a gute khoge!
Rick Gildemeister
4)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 94 14:47:19 EST
From: rtu...@cas.org
Subject: Bopkes
As far as I know, a "bopke" is a turd. As children we used the term
"bopkes" to refer to a hand of poker containing not even one pair. On
no
authority whatsoever, it looks to me as though it comes from the Polish
"bobek" (pl. "bobki"), sheep or goat dropping(s), which, I think,
derives
from "bo'b" bean.
Rick Turkel
.
.
--
Ace Lightning
well, the basic theme of every Jewish holiday but one can
be summed up as, "They tried to kill us. We won. Let's eat!"
(with various ritually significant food items for many of
the holidays). i mean, it's not as if they have any festivals
that require fireworks, the banging of large gongs, or parades
with bands composed of untrained, tone-deaf, drunken bagpipers.
Ace Lightning
>>America's major cities all have sizable Jewish populations.
>>especially New York - no matter what ethnicity you are in
>>NYC, you're also at least a little bit Jewish, just by
>>proximity. (also a little bit Irish and a little bit Italian.
>>those three waves of immigrants were the foundation of New
>>York as we know it today.) in the comparatively Jew-deficient
>>heartland of the country, "New York" is often a code word for
>>"Jewish", from "New York style cheesecake" to "those pushy
>>New Yorkers".
>'Dig: I'm Jewish. Count Basie's Jewish. Ray
>Charles is Jewish. Eddie Cantor's goyish. B'nai
>Brith is goyish; Hadassah, Jewish.
>If you live in New York or any other big city, you
>are Jewish. It doesn't matter even if you're
>Catholic; if you live in New York, you're Jewish.
>If you live in Butte, Montana, you're going to be
>goyish even if you're Jewish.
> -Lenny Bruce
like i said... almost all comedians were (and, in the
larger sense, still are) Jewish. New York is Jewish.
(New York has more Jews than Tel Aviv.)
the entire state of Nebraska is goyish. ditto Wyoming,
Iowa, and of course Utah. most of California is goyish,
except for Hollywood.
Lenny Bruce was one of the all-time champion Jews.
Mr. Greenjeans
> think it had any connotation of "goat shit"--what did we know from
> goats
> in B'klyn.
A goat in Yiddish is a Tsig. The pellets that are
eliminated are called the diminutive of bupkes (if
there is such a thing), bipkis. Therefore the
expression for the whole is: Tsigidah bipkis. Or in
the case of geese, Gantseleh bipkis.
My bubby told me.
MGJ
Truth Hurts
Youare a babe in the woods, but now no more if you read all the following:
Because many of us are in fact Arabic (Jews of old are Arabic (Islam))all
wish itwerenot so, however here it is in a nut shell, the thing the disgusting,
Ashcanazi, Communist Jew, et al hates and fights above all else, truth:
[The word "Islam" means "Under God's rule or laws"]
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they
http://re2.mm-c1.yimg.com/image/1100476191
do it from RELIGIOUS CONVICTION." ~ Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) ~
http://judicial-inc.biz/False_Flags_summary.htm
http://www.rense.com/general31/thr.htm
+Proof America Is a Christian Nation:
http://paminifarm.jeeran.com/christnation.html
+You payed over $3TRILLION to Jew in 2002 dollars
http://snipurl.com/bq1p and http://snipurl.com/bq1n
+You War-for-Jew http://snipurl.com/bpgv
+You War-for-Jew Cost http://www.costofwar.com
+You Hemorrhage-for-Jew http://PAMINIFARM.JEERAN.COM
+You Lose 275,000 Jobs everyear to Jew http://snipurl.com/bqmf
+God nor Jesus are Jew http://snipurl.com/cfit
+Jew Qualities http://www.jewwatch.com
+Jew bar code begins with 729
+Warning+Warning http://snipurl.com/bqmk
+"Intifada" is Arabic word for "SHAKE-OFF"- Ever see a dog shake
off his blood-sucking fleas http://palestinenet.org/english/
http://ourworld.cs.com/nonzion/index.htm?f=fs
http://ourworld.cs.com/nonzion/id70.htm?f=fs
+Jew bar code begins with 729.
+Hebrew's destruction
http://www.theology.edu/lec21.htm
+"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6.
Sweet Christian Warrior, May Our Father's Spilt Blood (Via His
Vessel, Jesus) Be Your Shield.
+More on Jews in Jesus' Own Words in John 8:44
+Cross http://snipurl.com/bqvr
+In God We Trust http://snipurl.com/bqui
Entire Bible http://snipurl.com/ddod or http://snipurl.com/deb1
Inside The Mind of a Jew:
"The Christians are always singing about the blood. Let us
give them enough of it! Let us cut their throats and drag them
over the altar! And let them drown in their own blood! I dream
of the day when the last priest is strangled on the guts of the
last preacher."(Jewish Chairman of the American Communist
Party, Gus Hall).
Stand Up and Shake Hands With the Real Jew:
http://www.halturnershow.com/IsraeliAtrocities.html
PALESTINE LIVES (pictures):
http://snipurl.com/e05i
http://snipurl.com/fdll
Jew bar code begins with 729
Buy Olive Oil from Palies:
http://www.zaytoun.org/suppliers/index.htm
Jew bar code begins with 729
Jesus' - uh - hope for Jews- John 8:44 and 45
Jesus said- Donot Feed the Trolls: Math.7:6
Divest From Israel Campaign:
http://www.divest-from-israel-campaign.org/
"God forbid that I should lose the life eternal,
for this carnal and short life." Mrs. Priest.
Lots More Talmud Law Insanity:
http://snipurl.com/d6y3
http://snipurl.com/d6y4
http://snipurl.com/d6y7
http://snipurl.com/d6yg
http://snipurl.com/d6xw
http://www.abbc.com/
http://snipurl.com/d6ye
http://snipurl.com/d6yd
http://snipurl.com/d6yj
http://snipurl.com/fapi
More on This Dire Subject:
------------------->*(1) http://snipurl.com/debf
------------------->*(2) http://snipurl.com/debg
------------------->*(3) http://snipurl.com/debi
------------------->*(4) http://snipurl.com/debj
------------------->*(5) http://snipurl.com/debk
------------------->*(6) http://snipurl.com/dedg
------------------->*(7) http://snipurl.com/dedj
------------------->*(8) http://snipurl.com/dedk
------------------->*(9) http://snipurl.com/dedm
------------------>*(10) http://snipurl.com/dedq
------------------>*(11) http://snipurl.com/dee1
Truly
xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
Ace Lightning
i grew up among Jews, and "bupkes" almost always meant
"something worthless, trifling, meaningless" (like a losing
hand at cards). it's usually translated as "goat droppings".
the connection with "beans", of course, is that goat shit
is almost like rabbit shit - mostly a collection of smallish
pellets.
"goose shit", on the other hand, is literally "loose as a
goose".
Kent Paul Dolan
> Or if
> I said 'Kent, you're a fucking Jew' would he be really, I mean,
> mortally offended? (not that I think Kent is anything other than
> mentally different to most others).
Umm, since my first lover, my first college roommate,
my last landlady from whom I rented a room in her house,
were all Jewish, probably I'd be most offended at the
"fucking" part, which erectile dysfunction has left me
mostly lacking for lo these couple decades now.
My father Chester, morally offended at all the religions,
and repetitively offended at the paraphenalia of Judiasm,
nevertheless found no offense in the Jews themselves. I
follow this example.
> The whole 'Jews killed Christ' thing is just ancient,
> is that all it is?
Well, and of course that's merely among the ignorant.
What Christianity professes to hold as true is that
_all of humankind_ murdered Christ. It was, for example,
waking up from dreams of pounding the nails into His
hands my personal self that convinced me I didn't need
a (Lutheran, FWIW) faith that laid such a guilt trip
on me.
HTH
xanthian.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Bibliophilia
>can be summed up as, "They tried to kill us. We won.
>Let's eat!"
BUAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Yep, that's true. Any why not go ahead and eat?
Kate Orman
> you're a fucking Jew
A slight rearrangement is required to make this accurate in my case.
- K
Kate Orman
> Lenny Bruce was one of the all-time champion Jews.
Superjew, in fact.
- K
Bibliophilia
nikolai kingsley
>>you're a fucking Jew
>
> A slight rearrangement is required to make this accurate in my case.
you're a DALEK SYMPATHISER!
http://www.ghastlycomic.com/comics/20051211.jpg
introducing Jimmy O'Shea, Hentai Attourney.
Ace Lightning
>>Lenny Bruce was one of the all-time champion Jews.
>Superjew, in fact.
Jackie Mason...
Excession
>"Excession" <q...@cpht.bet.nh> wrote:
>
>> Or if
>> I said 'Kent, you're a fucking Jew' would he be really, I mean,
>> mortally offended? (not that I think Kent is anything other than
>> mentally different to most others).
>
>were all Jewish, probably I'd be most offended at the
>"fucking" part, which erectile dysfunction has left me
In that context, the word isn't a sexual connotation, Kent.
>My father Chester, morally offended at all the religions,
In the same way that, in this context, 'chester' probably isn't short
for 'Child Molester'. (I say 'probably' just to be on the safe side).
>> The whole 'Jews killed Christ' thing is just ancient,
>> is that all it is?
>Well, and of course that's merely among the ignorant.
Greater than 90% of Americans are grossly ignorant, in my absolute
opinion.
>What Christianity professes to hold as true is that
>_all of humankind_ murdered Christ.
I was merely covering that base.
Dac
Excession
>>>you're a fucking Jew
>> A slight rearrangement is required to make this accurate in my case.
>you're a DALEK SYMPATHISER!
Is that qualitatively worse than being a Cyberman Arsefucker?
>introducing Jimmy O'Shea, Hentai Attourney.
Bukkake Island : "de vulva, de vulva, it's spewing shit again, boss"
Hey has that pilsudkis guy anagrammed
sher...@invalid.alphalink.com.au yet?
sheramil:
Arshile -M
asherim -L
Ashriel (4) -M
Earlish (0) -M
El Arish -M
haliers -M
Hermias -L
Ishmael -R
Isleham (0) -R
lime-ash (2) -R
meharis -L
Mishael (4) -R
Mishler -A
mislear (2) -H
Selimah -R
Arshile sounds like a great putdown.
"Ishmael calls me Arshile"
Miby Dock.
Dac
Truth Hurts
Hello,
If you all donot stop ignoring me and my post, iam going
to get explicit . . . and nasty too . . . if i can . . .
Truly
Truth Hurts
Truth Hurts
"Truth Hurts" <795...@127.0.0.1:7501> wrote:
>
>Hello,
>
>If you all donot stop ignoring me and my post, iam going
>to get explicit . . . and nasty too . . . if i can . . .
>
>http://paminifarm.jeeran.com
>
>Truly
>
I was only joking . . . honest . . . go ahead back to talking among yourselves
. . .
Bob Bain
If you cut a jew in two
do you still have a whole jew
or simply two whole parts
of a former jew ?
(These are questions interested parties require answers to !)
Bob Bain
It isn't widely understood that Adolf Hitler attempted to clarify a
childhood problem he experienced with orange juice.
He didn't like orange juice !
He told the whole world that he didn't like juice !
Unfortunately when he explained to the world that juice should be
removed from the shelves his edict "rid the world of juice" was
misunderstod due to his appalling Austrian accent.
He often held his hand up high in an attempt to say "Enough of this.
The juice most go ! The JUICE must go !"
.............but to no avail !
Of course he was bigoted.
He only objected to orange juice.
// u l i e n
"Kent Paul Dolan" <xant...@well.com> wrote in message
news:bb6b7039731c7e7ab0f...@mygate.mailgate.org...
> Well, and of course that's merely among the ignorant.
> What Christianity professes to hold as true is that
> _all of humankind_ murdered Christ. It was, for example,
> waking up from dreams of pounding the nails into His
> hands my personal self that convinced me I didn't need
> a (Lutheran, FWIW) faith that laid such a guilt trip
> on me.
At least you didn't have to think about one of your ancestors having stolen
from the tree of knowledge and be damned forever for his fault. Eden is
forever barred to you.
--
// u l i e n
"// u l i e n" <hostil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:u2Cof.5591$Dd2....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
One has to wonder if it was the thieving of the tree that caused the
backlash of 90 million years. Was it that Adam stole from the tree, or was
God annoyed because he didn't want Adam doing the Knowledge Apple, kind of
like a friend getting pissed when he finds out you've injected heroin.
--
Singing Cowboy
"// u l i e n" <hostil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> Well, and of course that's merely among the ignorant.
>>> What Christianity professes to hold as true is that
>>> _all of humankind_ murdered Christ.
>>>
Rubbish. Q.V. the Sermon on the Mount.
> One has to wonder if it was the thieving of the tree that caused the
> backlash of 90 million years.
There is no Eden. Genesis is a metaphor, syncretional
shorthand for the onslaught of transgenerationalist
memories scribed in neural grooves or writing in its
various forms. Human organized societies are already
proven to have pre-existed before the debate date
of Bishop Usher and Huxley.
There have been many ghods who might have, or
still do, influence the fate of millions. The old religion
seems laughable, when observing the modern adherents
arguing among themselves as what Wicca really means...
A low key brawl in an German beer stall.
Truth Will Set You Free
Hello,
The folks that translated the Bible messed things up rather badly:
The apple story is symbolism. Eve, Adam and Satan (the snake) had a sex orgy
in the garden. The resulting birth of twins, Cane and Abel, was: Cane was
the son of Satan; Abel the son of Adam - so now go figure - it will be a
lot easier now that you know the truth. The truth will set you free, and
John 8:44 will do the trick, but the beat goes on at: http://paminifarm.jeeran.com
Truly
Bob Bain
<795...@127.0.0.1:7501> wrote in message id
<43a40ebb$1...@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>:
>The folks that translated the Bible messed things up rather badly:
>The apple story is symbolism. Eve, Adam and Satan (the snake) had a sex orgy
>in the garden. The resulting birth of twins, Cane and Abel, was: Cane was
>the son of Satan; Abel the son of Adam - so now go figure -
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/adam.html
The Apocalypse of Adam
Translated by George W. MacRae
The revelation which Adam taught his son Seth in the seven hundreth
year, saying:
Listen to my words, my son Seth. When God had created me out of the
earth, along with Eve, your mother, I went about with her in a glory
which she had seen in the aeon from which we had come forth. She
taught me a word of knowledge of the eternal God. And we resembled the
great eternal angels, for we were higher than the god who had created
us and the powers with him, whom we did not know.
Then God, the ruler of the aeons and the powers, divided us in wrath.
Then we became two aeons. And the glory in our heart(s) left us, me
and your mother Eve, along with the first knowledge that breathed
within us. And it (glory) fled from us; it entered into [...] great
[...] which had come forth, not from this aeon from which we had come
forth, I and Eve your mother. But it (knowledge) entered into the seed
of great aeons. For this reason I myself have called you by the name
of that man who is the seed of the great generation or from whom (it
comes). After those days, the eternal knowledge of the God of truth
withdrew from me and your mother Eve. Since that time, we learned
about dead things, like men. Then we recognized the God who had
created us. For we were not strangers to his powers. And we served him
in fear and slavery. And after these things, we became darkened in our
heart(s). Now I slept in the thought of my heart.
----------------------------------
These are the revelations which Adam made known to Seth, his son, And
his son taught his seed about them. This is the hidden knowledge of
Adam, which he gave to Seth, which is the holy baptism of those who
know the eternal knowledge through those born of the word and the
imperishable illuminators, who came from the holy seed: Yesseus,
Mazareus, Yessedekeus, the Living Water.
-----------------------------------
!!!! ? !!!!
Kent Paul Dolan
> Cane was the son of Satan
The "truth" that will set you free of such superstition is
the truth that human beings are quite capable of doing
evil without some invented boogyman "Satan" to provoke
that evil-doing.
xanthian.
And equally capable of doing good without some "God"
on whom to blame the impulse or who takes the credit.
[The girlfriend, rescued off the street, started praising me in
pillow talk for all the things I'd "done for her".
This list translated almost directly word for word into "I was
hungry, and you fed me, I was injured, and you succored
me, I was cold, and you sheltered me".
Not too shabby, for an atheist.]
nikolai kingsley
> This list translated almost directly word for word into "I was
> hungry, and you fed me, I was injured, and you succored
> me, I was cold, and you sheltered me".
>
> Not too shabby, for an atheist.]
the real reason many so-called xtians despise many atheists - the latter
make the former look bad, by genuinely acting the way the former are
supposed to.
Ace Lightning
>[The girlfriend, rescued off the street, started praising me in
>pillow talk for all the things I'd "done for her".
>This list translated almost directly word for word into "I was
>hungry, and you fed me, I was injured, and you succored
>me, I was cold, and you sheltered me".
yeah, but does she claim to be Jesus?
(i didn't think so.)
although "insofar as ye have done these things for the least
of them, ye have done it for Me" also applies in this context.
>Not too shabby, for an atheist.]
my mother used to say that my voice and music tutor was "one
of the best Christians" she'd ever known. he was a cantor in
a local Conservative Jewish synagogue. he also was far from
an ascetic. he had been an opera singer in Europe before WW II,
and he enjoyed fine food and wine, the company of beautiful and
intelligent women - and intelligent men; he had provided piano
accompaniment for Albert Einstein's violin playing - and a good
belly-laugh of a joke. but he was generous of spirit, and
fundamentally kind.
Ace Lightning
>>Not too shabby, for an atheist.]
>the real reason many so-called xtians despise many atheists - the latter
>make the former look bad, by genuinely acting the way the former are
>supposed to.
likewise for many pagans. not only do most pagans focus on
helping to save the Earth, but they also frequently help out
in soup kitchens, clothing drives, and other non-sectarian
charitable activities. part of pagan theology is making sure
to "walk the talk". too many people think that going to church
for one hour a week makes them Christians, and gives them the
right to look down on everyone else. (the *real* Christians
have no patience with them either.)
// u l i e n
"Ace Lightning" <acelig...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:43A7B70B...@comcast.net...
Pagans are evil. If this was a dungeons and dragons world I would get mad
rage when viewing a pagan as the elf gets when viewing an orc.
// u l i e n
I think it is just that the word "pagan" is a derogatory term. There is no
escaping that. The Christians say they are out conducting pagan worship.
See, it's derogatory.
--
nikolai kingsley
> likewise for many pagans. not only do most pagans focus on
> helping to save the Earth, but they also frequently help out
> in soup kitchens, clothing drives, and other non-sectarian
> charitable activities.
i couldn't help noticing at that last workforth'dole place, all of us
pagans were in the kitchen making meals for the local homeless while the
church elders were all off somewhere holding bible discussion groups
among themselves.
nikolai kingsley
> I think it is just that the word "pagan" is a derogatory term. There is no
> escaping that. The Christians say they are out conducting pagan worship.
> See, it's derogatory.
pre-christianity rome used to refer to the christians as pagans. :)
Bibliophilia
Yeah, "pagan" means like "infidel" - it's parochial, all about the
speaker's religious orientation.
Also, some atheists *are* annoying. The annoying ones are the ones who
think
1. their belief about God isn't a belief, it's a fact
2. they think that only a fool wouldn't share their belief about God
3. they think #2 means they are smarter than everyone else.
4. They fail to see that 1, 2, and 3 is true about most other
religions, as well.
In fact, now that I think about it, annoying atheists are annoying for
the same reasons annoying Baptists, Lutherans, Catholics, Buddhists,
and other annoying religious flavors are annoying.
And now that *I* have annoyed everyone .....
euclid
> And now that *I* have annoyed everyone .....
Does this mean you plan to found a religion?
euclid
Hail Eris
euclid
> i couldn't help noticing at that last workforth'dole place, all of us
> pagans were in the kitchen making meals for the local homeless while the
> church elders were all off somewhere holding bible discussion groups
> among themselves.
It prolly has to do with that whole spirituality vs. materialism thing.
Mebbe while you weren't looking they were handing out bibles
so that people could take comfort in verses like "man does not
live by bread alone but by the word" etc.
euclid
And it's so true. Man needs something to balance the amino acids
found in the grain that makes bread...something like peanut butter.
Bibliophilia
>Does this mean you plan to found a religion?
hee. No, but I found one yesterday on the ground - did you drop one?
If you can describe it, I will mail it back to you.
Scott Dorsey
If it has anything to do with clams and thetans, please dispose of it
properly.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Bob Bain
wrote in message id
<1135094096.2...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
>Yeah, "pagan" means like "infidel" - it's parochial, all about the
>speaker's religious orientation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
Paganism (from Latin paganus) and Heathenry are catch-all terms which
have come to connote a broad set of spiritual/religious beliefs and
practices of a natural religion, as opposed to the Abrahamic
religions. These beliefs, which are not necessarily compatible with
each other, are usually characterized by polytheism and animism.
Often, the term has pejorative connotations, comparable to infidel and
Kafir in Islam.
-------------
The term pagan is from Latin paganus, an adjective originally meaning
"rural", "rustic" or "of the country". As a noun, paganus was used to
mean "country dweller, villager". "Peasant" is a cognate, via Old
French paisent. (Harry Thurston Peck, Harper's Dictionary of Classical
Antiquity, 1897; "pagus".
In their distant origins, these usages derived from pagus, "province,
countryside", cognate to Greek p???? "rocky hill", and, even earlier,
"something stuck in the ground", as a landmark: the root pag- means
"fixed" and is also the source of the words "page", "pale" (stake),
and "pole", as well as "pact" and "peace".
Later, through metaphorical use, paganus came to mean 'rural district,
village' and 'country dweller' and, as the Roman Empire declined into
military autocracy and anarchy, in the 4th and 5th centuries it came
to mean "civilian", in a sense parallel to the English usage "the
locals". It was only after the Late Imperial introduction of serfdom,
in which agricultural workers were legally bound to the land (see
Serf), that it began to have negative connotations, and imply the
simple ancient religion of country people, which Virgil had mentioned
respectfully in Georgics. Like its approximate synonym heathen (see
below), it was adopted by Middle English-speaking Christians as a slur
to refer to those too rustic to embrace Christianity.
-----------------------
Cathedrals are always found in large cities. Now would the "cath" in
"cathedral" have any relationship to catholicism ?
Ioannis
news:5logq1h7faakr5gqk...@4ax.com...
[snip]
> Cathedrals are always found in large cities. Now would the "cath" in
> "cathedral" have any relationship to catholicism ?
Yes. Both words are compound, and the Greek root of the first constituent
word is the same. The subsequent consituent words are different.
"Cath-" from the Greek "kata-" meaning "direction towards" or "of" as in
cata-tonic
Whenever the second consituent word starts with a vowel, and in particular
with a daseia spirited vowel, conjuction forces the "tau" to change to a
"theta", thus "cath-". So,
"Cathedral"= kata- hedra = towards seat/side (dodeca-hedron= twelve-sides,
etc)
"Catholicism"= kata- holicism = towards entire.
--
I.N. Galidakis --- http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/
Kent Paul Dolan
Ace Lightning wrote:
> Kent Paul Dolan wrote:
> >This list translated almost directly word for word into "I was
> >hungry, and you fed me, I was injured, and you succored
> >me, I was cold, and you sheltered me".
> yeah, but does she claim to be Jesus?
> (i didn't think so.)
Right. As you indicate further on, she more qualifies as one
of "the least of these"; about the poorest homeless person I
ever met, without even the blanket one ragged Seikh local
to the Phoenix Public Library had to shelter himself from the
sun and later from the cold.
[It was hard to give him food, but if I persisted, he would
accept some.]
xanthian.
nikolai kingsley
>>Yeah, "pagan" means like "infidel" - it's parochial, all about the
>>speaker's religious orientation.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
when you look up "Bob Bain" on wiki you get a number of near-misses,
including:
List of people described as Stalinists
Relevancy: 6.1% - -
nikolai kingsley
>>i couldn't help noticing at that last workforth'dole place, all of us
>>pagans were in the kitchen making meals for the local homeless while the
>>church elders were all off somewhere holding bible discussion groups
>>among themselves.
>
> It prolly has to do with that whole spirituality vs. materialism thing.
>
> Mebbe while you weren't looking they were handing out bibles
> so that people could take comfort in verses like "man does not
> live by bread alone but by the word" etc.
LHA-compressed anecdote. xtian missionaries hand out bibles in central
asia. general approval because the pages are just the right thickness to
roll cigarettes from.
nikolai kingsley
> [It was hard to give him food, but if I persisted, he would
> accept some.]
CHICK NUTS
a tasty low-fat, low-GI nibble
375 g packet of dried chick peas
flavoring if required: cayenne pepper, or paprika, or garlic salt.
1. soak the chick peas in water overnight. the next day drain and pat
dry with $100-dollar bills (or use small kittens).
2. spread in a single layer on a baking tray. bake in a moderate or at
least mildly Republican oven (180 C, 360 F) for about 45 minutes or
until completely crisp. They should shrink back to their unsoaked size.
If they don't, contact the department of homeland security and inform them.
3. while still hot, toss with flavoring, or cool and offer to local Sikhs.
Bob Bain
<sher...@invalid.alphalink.com.au> wrote in message id
<40rlbtF...@individual.net>:
>when you look up "Bob Bain" on wiki you get a number of near-misses,
>including:
>List of people described as Stalinists
>Relevancy: 6.1% - -
Yeah Sure....
Bob Avakian and Hardial Bains
Nothing to do with me !
Kate Orman
> Eve, Adam and Satan (the snake) had a sex orgy in the garden.
Bloody pervy fanficcers.
I'm reading the autobiography of Samuel Noah Kramer, whose study of
ancient Mesopotamian literature contributed hugely to the world's
knowledge and to my own life. I had no idea that he was in fact a
Russian immigrant, born named Simcha Noach Kramer. He writes that the
guttural chs in his forenames were a great frustration to his American
teachers.
Which brings me to: hubby mentioned an article he read somewhere about
which languages rap sounds best in. We reckon Yiddish rap would be
terrific, but you'd need to clear the first two rows (or, like Klingon
lessons, provide napkins).
Chappy Chanukkah all,
- K "Shiksa power"
Singing Cowboy
"euclid" <eucl...@mailandnews.com> wrote>
>
> It prolly has to do with that whole spirituality vs.
> materialism thing.
>
> Mebbe while you weren't looking they were
>handing out bibles so that people could take
> comfort in verses like "man does not
> live by bread alone but by the word" etc.
>
Not bloody likely. Theocracy needs lots of prior
planning, and that tends to be the piss-poor variety.
> And it's so true. Man needs something to balance
> the amino acids found in the grain that makes bread
>...something like peanut butter.
>
Thread drift being what it is. Jimmy Carter and his
wife Rosalynn have left the Southern Baptist Church.
JC, in an interview on NPR, cited the main reason as
being that the SBC had undermined Protestantism by
declaring that dogma delineated by the Troika of
the SBC was ghod's writ: a distributed papacy, a
theocracy in the making, ready, willing and able to
stand between Human and Creator. A Calvinist would
put up with that shit, and possibly a Lutheran also.
A Shia or Sufi wouldn't and, of course, most Southnoirs
wouldn't either.
ObPrediction:
The SBC, currently the largest Protestant denomination
in the U.S., schisms into fragments in this decade.
Ace Lightning
>>Pagans are evil. If this was a dungeons and dragons world I would get mad
>>rage when viewing a pagan as the elf gets when viewing an orc.
>I think it is just that the word "pagan" is a derogatory term. There is no
>escaping that. The Christians say they are out conducting pagan worship.
>See, it's derogatory.
Ace Lightning
the church elders have more important things to do that
actually *practice* their religion. usually it's vicious
internal politics.
Ace Lightning
song cue!
"The Christians And The Pagan" (it's even seasonally appropriate)
Ace Lightning
>Also, some atheists *are* annoying. The annoying ones are the ones who
>think
> 1. their belief about God isn't a belief, it's a fact
> 2. they think that only a fool wouldn't share their belief about God
> 3. they think #2 means they are smarter than everyone else.
> 4. They fail to see that 1, 2, and 3 is true about most other
> religions, as well.
while "atheism" technically just means "not believing in
the concept of 'god'", most atheists today should be
calling themselves Atheists. they are just as dogmatic and
insistent about their lack of belief as any religious
fundamentalist is about belief. i find this attitude seriously
irritating - and they refuse to see that they're behaving
*exactly* the same way as the people they're criticizing.
>In fact, now that I think about it, annoying atheists are annoying for
>the same reasons annoying Baptists, Lutherans, Catholics, Buddhists,
>and other annoying religious flavors are annoying.
yep. someday i expect to have two dowdily-dressed, intensely
sincere folks ring my doorbell and attempt to convert me to
the One True Lack Of Faith...
Ace Lightning
thank you, Bob, for quoting the explanation before i could
get around to it.
basically, "pagan" and "heathen" meant something close to what
we mean by "hick, rube, yokel, bumpkin, hillbilly" - a person
who is considered stupid and unsophisticated because they come
from a rural environment. and it would have taken a lot longer
for Christianity to catch on in that rural environment than it
did in the cities. for one thing, if you don't propitiate the
gods and goddesses of Nature, how can you be sure that your crops
won't fail, your cows won't go dry, and you and your family won't
starve to death over the winter? that newfangled religion doesn't
seem to have anything to say about that...
Ace Lightning
>>Cathedrals are always found in large cities. Now would the "cath" in
>>"cathedral" have any relationship to catholicism ?
>Yes. Both words are compound, and the Greek root of the first constituent
>word is the same. The subsequent consituent words are different.
>"Cath-" from the Greek "kata-" meaning "direction towards" or "of" as in
>cata-tonic
>Whenever the second consituent word starts with a vowel, and in particular
>with a daseia spirited vowel, conjuction forces the "tau" to change to a
>"theta", thus "cath-". So,
>"Cathedral"= kata- hedra = towards seat/side (dodeca-hedron= twelve-sides,
>etc)
"cathedral" is a shortened form of "cathedral church" - one
which contains a _cathedra_, or throne, for a bishop to sit
in. while seated, the bishop may make a pronouncement
_ex cathedra_ ("from the seat"), meaning that he issues the
pronouncement in his official rank as a bishop, not merely as
an ordinary person.
>"Catholicism"= kata- holicism = towards entire.
and in English, "catholic" with a small "c" means "universal,
all-encompassing". a person who likes to read just about any
form of literature can be said to have "catholic" taste in
reading.
Ace Lightning
>>yeah, but does she claim to be Jesus?
>>(i didn't think so.)
>Right. As you indicate further on, she more qualifies as one
>of "the least of these"; about the poorest homeless person I
>ever met, without even the blanket one ragged Seikh local
>to the Phoenix Public Library had to shelter himself from the
>sun and later from the cold.
>[It was hard to give him food, but if I persisted, he would
>accept some.]
i'm sure you are no stranger to the concept of "poor
but proud"...
Ace Lightning
>Which brings me to: hubby mentioned an article he read somewhere about
>which languages rap sounds best in. We reckon Yiddish rap would be
>terrific, but you'd need to clear the first two rows (or, like Klingon
>lessons, provide napkins).
there actually is such a thing as "Yiddish rap" (also known
as "Hasidic rap"), and it's fairly popular:
http://www.forward.com/articles/2852
this, however, is not necessarily what it sounds like:
http://www.atomfilms.com/sw/content/matzah_af
>Chappy Chanukkah all,
> - K "Shiksa power"
you don't want to *know* what it's like being practically the
only shiksa in your school! i grew up on Long Island, which
was pronounced locally as "Lawn Guyland"...
Kate Orman
> while "atheism" technically just means "not believing in
> the concept of 'god'", most atheists today should be
> calling themselves Atheists. they are just as dogmatic and
> insistent about their lack of belief as any religious
> fundamentalist is about belief. i find this attitude seriously
> irritating - and they refuse to see that they're behaving
> *exactly* the same way as the people they're criticizing.
At this point I should mention that I'm friends with a Fundamentalist
Christian *and* a hardline atheist, both of whom have always remained
patient and friendly about our differences in belief, neither of whom
have ever tried to convert or convince me.
I'm thinking of breeding them.
- K
REP
Ace Lightning <acelig...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Kate Orman wrote:
> >Chappy Chanukkah all,
> > - K "Shiksa power"
>
> you don't want to *know* what it's like being practically the
> only shiksa in your school!
Always makes me chuckle when I see goyim calling themselves "shiksa."
It's not a benign term.
--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
Ace Lightning
Ace Lightning
well, i don't personally care *what* anybody else
believes (or doesn't believe), unless it appears to be
causing them or those close to them some sort of harm -
or unless they're trying to force it on me. i'm amazed,
and encouraged, that your two friends avoid both problems.
>I'm thinking of breeding them.
now *there's* a frightening thought...
nikolai kingsley
> At this point I should mention that I'm friends with a Fundamentalist
> Christian *and* a hardline atheist, both of whom have always remained
> patient and friendly about our differences in belief, neither of whom
> have ever tried to convert or convince me.
>
> I'm thinking of breeding them.
i'm calling the RSPCA on you, lady.
Kate Orman
> Always makes me chuckle when I see goyim calling themselves "shiksa."
> It's not a benign term.
... what's Yiddish for "reclaiming"?
- K "She described herself as 'a masculine oddity', but today we would
prefer the term 'rampaging bulldyke'".
Ace Lightning
>Always makes me chuckle when I see goyim calling themselves "shiksa."
>It's not a benign term.
you think i don't know that?
Kent Paul Dolan
> Also, some atheists *are* annoying. The annoying
> ones are the ones who think
> 1. their belief about God isn't a belief, it's a
> fact
Umm, atheists, while in self defense often embroiled
in controversies that seem to be about the _local_
religion, in point of fact don't have any "belief
about God" at all, not recognizing "God" as a valid
target for beliefs, but only "beliefs about deities
in general".
That was once well expressed as something like: the
evidence for the existence of any god or gods is on
a par with the evidence for the existence of
werewolves.
Atheists reserve to themselves the right to consider
that if believers in werewolves, in the face of a
profound lack of any credible evidence for the
existence of werewolves, may be safely categorized
as gullible, ignorant, folly-ridden and
self-delusional, then so, by analogy, may deists.
It is also a sad historical fact that belief in a
deistic religion proves dangerous to the surrounding
community that believe in another, or in no,
religion, the True Believers being willing to commit
any atrocity imaginable if they take the word of a
deity intercessionist that said deity has ordered,
or will approve of, said atrocity.
Atheists therefore reserve the right to treat
religion, as religion, as a dangerous disorder of
the human psyche, to be cured if possible, resisted
in any case, or if necessary in self-defense,
fought, just as one would fight plagues of rats or
other vermin.
> 2. they think that only a fool wouldn't share
> their belief about God
Explicitly a gullible, ignorant, self-delusional
fool, yes. How sad that most such are incapable of
sufficient introspection to see themselves as
atheists see them, as beasts caught in traps not of
their own devising. It might free them from the
shackles of deism to analyze just who it is who
benefits in real world terms from their beliefs.
> 3. they think #2 means they are smarter than
> everyone else.
No, merely less gullible, ignorant, folly-prone, and
self-delusional, at least on the subject of the
reality of gods. If others equate that to "smarter",
well, good for our side, more converts.
> 4. They fail to see that 1, 2, and 3 is true about
> most other religions, as well.
Umm, trying to tag atheism as "a religion" is an
obnoxious tactic used by fundamentalists to get
atheist teaching excluded by law wherever religious
teaching is so excluded. Don't go there. Atheism is
no more a religion than is a profound disbelief in
werewolves or Santa Claus.
FYI
xanthian.
Ace Lightning
>Umm, atheists, while in self defense often embroiled
>in controversies that seem to be about the _local_
>religion, in point of fact don't have any "belief
>about God" at all, not recognizing "God" as a valid
>target for beliefs, but only "beliefs about deities
>in general".
the kind of atheists Bibliophilia is talking about
have a dogmatic "belief in the non-existence of Deity".
they are every bit as convinced that a Deity *cannot*
exist as the dogmatic theists are convinced that there
*is* a Deity.
on a purely intellectual level, i have to take an
agnostic position; there simply isn't enough information
for us to state with any degree of certainty whether
any such critter exists or doesn't. subjectively, though,
i know what i feel to have "emotional truth" for me -
but that's a very different thing from empirical proof.
>It is also a sad historical fact that belief in a
>deistic religion proves dangerous to the surrounding
>community that believe in another, or in no,
>religion, the True Believers being willing to commit
>any atrocity imaginable if they take the word of a
>deity intercessionist that said deity has ordered,
>or will approve of, said atrocity.
that's not true of *all* religions, just most of
them. some of us have absolutely no interest in
whether or not other people have the same beliefs
as we do, and no desire at all to "convert" anyone
to our way of thinking.
>Atheists therefore reserve the right to treat
>religion, as religion, as a dangerous disorder of
>the human psyche, to be cured if possible, resisted
>in any case, or if necessary in self-defense,
>fought, just as one would fight plagues of rats or
>other vermin.
do you consider *me* part of a "plague of rats or other
vermin"? am i the victim of "a dangerous disorder of the
human psyche"?
>Umm, trying to tag atheism as "a religion" is an
>obnoxious tactic used by fundamentalists to get
>atheist teaching excluded by law wherever religious
>teaching is so excluded. Don't go there. Atheism is
>no more a religion than is a profound disbelief in
>werewolves or Santa Claus.
as i said, there's atheism, and there's Atheism. the
latter has all the hallmarks of a religion, and a
seriously dogmatic and hidebound one at that. i don't
see very much difference between screaming "THERE IS
NO GOD, I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD, AND YOU CAN'T MAKE
ME!" and screaming "THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH, AND
MUHAMMAD IS HIS PROPHET!" (or any other "profession of
faith".)
Kent Paul Dolan
> the kind of atheists Bibliophilia is talking about
> have a dogmatic "belief in the non-existence of
> Deity". they are every bit as convinced that a
> Deity *cannot* exist as the dogmatic theists are
> convinced that there *is* a Deity.
There's still a huge difference _in kind_.
It is quite reasonable to say to a deist: you say
your deity exists? Present it here and now for all
to see.
It is quite unreasonable to say to an atheist: you
say no deity exists? Produce the nonexistence of a
deity here and now for all to see.
The failure of the former enterprise ever to be
completed successfully even once, despite all the
millions of times over history that the challenge
has been put forward, gives atheists an unshakable
confidence in the rightness of their beliefs that
all deism is purest grade hokum, despite that the
latter challenge cannot be met even in concept.
> on a purely intellectual level, i have to take an
> agnostic position; there simply isn't enough
> information for us to state with any degree of
> certainty whether any such critter exists or
> doesn't. subjectively, though, i know what i feel
> to have "emotional truth" for me - but that's a
> very different thing from empirical proof.
Atheists are in a the bad position of claiming that
"absence of evidence is evidence of absence"; but
deists are in the much worse position of
_pro_claiming, millions of times, that "we have
_lots of_ evidence, but you skeptics are prevented
by your very skepticism from perceiving that
evidence". We who are atheists are reduced to taking
the position that until even one of these hucksters
comes through with the goods, one deity,
up-front-and-center for even the most skeptical to
see, that it is a waste of our lives to spend time
believing in what cannot be demonstrated, and a
danger to our lives when others insist that we
believe what cannot be demonstrated, anyway,
or-bloody-else.
>> It is also a sad historical fact that belief in a
>> deistic religion proves dangerous to the
>> surrounding community that believe in another, or
>> in no, religion, the True Believers being willing
>> to commit any atrocity imaginable if they take
>> the word of a deity intercessionist that said
>> deity has ordered, or will approve of, said
>> atrocity.
> that's not true of *all* religions, just most of
> them. some of us have absolutely no interest in
> whether or not other people have the same beliefs
> as we do, and no desire at all to "convert" anyone
> to our way of thinking.
You, personally, may not, currently, but that athame
of your dreams was at some point in time used to cut
throats for sacrifices, and will be again. A sense
of history of the "kill them all and let god sort it
out" variety is important in evaluating the danger
of religion. To the Jews, the pogroms may have been
infrequent, but huge proportions of their
populations died, and most of their possessions were
seized, in each one. Don't talk to me about one
religion that might be temporarily defanged, the
breed is vicious, and the evidence is overwhelming
in its bulk and bloodiness, that _as a breed_,
deisms are an intolerable blight on the human
species.
>> Atheists therefore reserve the right to treat
>> religion, as religion, as a dangerous disorder of
>> the human psyche, to be cured if possible,
>> resisted in any case, or if necessary in
>> self-defense, fought, just as one would fight
>> plagues of rats or other vermin.
> do you consider *me* part of a "plague of rats or
> other vermin"? am i the victim of "a dangerous
> disorder of the human psyche"?
Absolutely, though a picture-cute vermin and a
brilliantly disordered psyche.
>> Umm, trying to tag atheism as "a religion" is an
>> obnoxious tactic used by fundamentalists to get
>> atheist teaching excluded by law wherever
>> religious teaching is so excluded. Don't go
>> there. Atheism is no more a religion than is a
>> profound disbelief in werewolves or Santa Claus.
> as i said, there's atheism, and there's Atheism.
> the latter has all the hallmarks of a religion,
> and a seriously dogmatic and hidebound one at
> that. i don't see very much difference between
> screaming "THERE IS NO GOD, I DON'T BELIEVE IN
> GOD, AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!" and screaming "THERE
> IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH, AND MUHAMMAD IS HIS PROPHET!"
> (or any other "profession of faith".)
Except that that _isn't_ what we athiests are
screaming, but instead "You can't make me believe in
your god UNLESS YOU CAN PRODUCE IT HERE AND NOW."
Granted, that is usually accompanied by a Greek
Chorus sounding off in the key of "neener, neener".
But the other side answers only with the profoundest
of discomforts, that of being told to put up or shut
up, and being unwilling to do either.
xanthian.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Ace Lightning
>It is quite reasonable to say to a deist: you say
>your deity exists? Present it here and now for all
>to see.
>It is quite unreasonable to say to an atheist: you
>say no deity exists? Produce the nonexistence of a
>deity here and now for all to see.
>The failure of the former enterprise ever to be
>completed successfully even once, despite all the
>millions of times over history that the challenge
>has been put forward, gives atheists an unshakable
>confidence in the rightness of their beliefs that
>all deism is purest grade hokum, despite that the
>latter challenge cannot be met even in concept.
i'm not going to bother telling you about the many
experiences of Deity that i've had, because all of
them are entirely subjective. i wouldn't expect them
to impress anyone else. and, though such experiences
are overwhelmingly convincing when they happen, i
still have to consider myself an agnostic, if we
leave the emotional factors out of it. can you ever
forgive me for finding personal joy and satisfaction
in those emotional moments, though?
>>that's not true of *all* religions, just most of
>>them. some of us have absolutely no interest in
>>whether or not other people have the same beliefs
>>as we do, and no desire at all to "convert" anyone
>>to our way of thinking.
>You, personally, may not, currently, but that athame
>of your dreams was at some point in time used to cut
>throats for sacrifices, and will be again.
nonsense. modern Wicca was cobbled together out of
scraps of romantic mysticism from dozens of different
sources by Gerald Garner and a few of his pals,
during the first half of the 20th century. and in
most groups, if you ever actually do get blood on your
athame, it can never be used for ritual purposes again.
(why do you think that Wicca attracts so many NewAge
fluffybunnies?)
not that there aren't dogmatists, fundamentalists,
and all sorts of other petty dictators calling
themselves "Wiccan" (or "NewAge", "spiritual",
"shamanic", etc., etc.).
>>as i said, there's atheism, and there's Atheism.
>>the latter has all the hallmarks of a religion,
>>and a seriously dogmatic and hidebound one at
>>that. i don't see very much difference between
>>screaming "THERE IS NO GOD, I DON'T BELIEVE IN
>>GOD, AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!" and screaming "THERE
>>IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH, AND MUHAMMAD IS HIS PROPHET!"
>>(or any other "profession of faith".)
>Except that that _isn't_ what we athiests are
>screaming, but instead "You can't make me believe in
>your god UNLESS YOU CAN PRODUCE IT HERE AND NOW."
*YOU* don't scream "you can't make me" in that
fashion - but surely you've run across those who
do!
>Granted, that is usually accompanied by a Greek
>Chorus sounding off in the key of "neener, neener".
>But the other side answers only with the profoundest
>of discomforts, that of being told to put up or shut
>up, and being unwilling to do either.
perhaps you just don't find the dogmatic "militant
atheists" worth your attention at all, and therefore
you don't realize that they do exist. but they make
intellectual atheism look as foolish as Fred Phelps
makes mainstream Christianity look.
meanwhile...
as the sun begins to rise over the Atlantic, on the morning
after the Winter Solstice, i have incontrovertible proof
that flames, evergreen boughs decorated with lights and
shiny-sparkly things, and the singing of appropriate songs,
*always* induce the Sun to come back, and not leave us to
freeze in the dark forever.
Bob Bain
<xant...@well.com> wrote in message id
<320e86d24f43dea7405...@mygate.mailgate.org>:
>Except that that _isn't_ what we athiests are
>screaming, but instead "You can't make me believe in
>your god UNLESS YOU CAN PRODUCE IT HERE AND NOW."
I started with www.god.com but I found the usual mish mash of
goodness and evil and how Christ died for my sins.
I then moved on to www.god.org
Uh huh !
Now we're moving closer to reality..
The main categories are:-
Church Construction
Church Signs
Reasons For Hair Loss
Jesus Christ
Rosary
Jesus
God
Occult
What Does God Look Like
Christianity
Spirituality
Church Building
Books
Christ
Devil
Christian Site
Salvation
Bible
Lords
Faith
Heaven
Jewish Religion
Gospel
Creation
==================================
Most of this was what I expected to find
BUT
Reasons for hair loss ?
What is this doing on a site devoted to the principle deity in the
Eastern, the Western, the Northern and the Southern Hemisphere ?
.... and if I click on "Devil" I get a link to purchase New Jersey
Devils NHL tickets.
Lords takes me to "Lord of the Rings" and how to become a Lord for
195 quid......
(sigh)
Is there nothing sacred ?
Bibliophilia
Ace Lightning wrote:
> as i said, there's atheism, and there's Atheism. the
> latter has all the hallmarks of a religion, and a
> seriously dogmatic and hidebound one at that. i don't
> see very much difference between screaming "THERE IS
> NO GOD, I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD, AND YOU CAN'T MAKE
> ME!" and screaming "THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH, AND
> MUHAMMAD IS HIS PROPHET!" (or any other "profession of
> faith".)
OMG, marry me. This exactly it. It all sounds the same to me - the
vehemence, the self-righteous assertion that there is no god but a lack
of god, the snotty insistence that I must be stupid not to firmly
believe in the Nonexistence of the Living God. It's just like the
crazy right winger religious dudes - same old tune, different lyrics.
I get so annoyed being berated for failing to join the North American
Church of Atheism. People can believe whatever they want about God or
Lack of God or whatever, but I wish they would stop shoving it down
everybody else's throat. What a buzzkill.
Bibliophilia
>treat religion, as religion, as a dangerous
>disorder of the human psyche, to be
>cured if possible, resisted in any case,
> or if necessary in self-defense, fought,
>just as one would fight plagues of rats or
>other vermin.
Kent, you're a smart interesting guy, but I see you and your band of
warriors on the crest of hill overlooking the entrance into the
Holyland, crusader's sword unshearthed, shield at the ready, hair and
beard blowing majestically in the wind, a hero at the ready to defend
Unchristiandom from the Believers.
>in the face of a profound lack of any
>credible evidence for the existence
>of werewolves,
For sure. God's existence, because of the way he's defined, is like
werewolves or unicorns or the tiny jolly dancing man who lives the top
drawer of my office desk and hands me a pencil and waves up cheerily
when I open the drawer, but is too shy to be seen when you open the
drawer.
If either side claims hard evidence that God exists or doesn't exist,
they're deluding themselves, because this is like the little man in the
drawer. "God exists" is one of the undecidable propositions in logic.
A belief system based on hard evidence is facts, and the whole point of
religion is mystery, is faith without seeing entirely, of grasping for
something that is too big and too important to be netted by human
brains, even very logical ones.
It's the wrong question, whether or not someone can prove God
exists/doesn't exist. It's not even a really meaningful question, you
know?
Unless you truly believe that human mental power is capable of grasping
every single thread, of unraveling and laying bare every possible fact
about the universe? To see every interrelationship, large and small,
to catalog and document everything from every angle? I don't believe
that. I don't believe nature would hold still for that kind of
examination.
Kent Paul Dolan
> Kent, you're a smart interesting guy, but I see
> you and your band of warriors
That would be my pet pocket mouse?
> on the crest of hill overlooking the entrance into
> the Holyland,
Umm, now how would an atheist admit the land was
"holy"?
> crusader's sword unshearthed,
Out of the scabbard and into the ground, more swords
lose their edge that way.
> shield at the ready,
Me being a bit crippled in the left arm, perhaps a
freshly ironed aluminum foil telepathy deflection
beenie would suffice? I sure can't heft one of
those middle ages thingies.
> hair and beard blowing majestically in the wind,
Right up until three of us shaved my head in jail,
you still had a chance to sell this image; the
evidence is clear that at least once, I had serious
hair.
http://www.anycities.com/user/xanthian/KentImages/KentImages.html
(check the first 2003/10/25 link)
> a hero at the ready to defend Unchristiandom from
> the Believers.
Now there, you have me dead to rights, I'm my
daddy Chester's boy.
>> in the face of a profound lack of any credible
>> evidence for the existence of werewolves,
> For sure. God's existence, because of the way
> he's defined, is like werewolves or unicorns or
> the tiny jolly dancing man who lives the top
> drawer of my office desk and hands me a pencil and
> waves up cheerily when I open the drawer, but is
> too shy to be seen when you open the drawer.
Nope. We're talking burning bushes, column of fire
by night, of smoke by day, fingers pointing to the
egress from Eden, thunderbolts from on high unto
malefactors, buggerers smote 'til their cities were
flat; not the universe's most subtle type. So what's
the big deal with an entrance from stage left?
Remember, to the deists, this crap isn't merely
true, it's True.
> If either side claims hard evidence that God
> exists or doesn't exist, they're deluding
> themselves, because this is like the little man in
> the drawer. "God exists" is one of the undecidable
> propositions in logic. A belief system based on
> hard evidence is facts, and the whole point of
> religion is mystery, is faith without seeing
> entirely, of grasping for something that is too
> big and too important to be netted by human
> brains, even very logical ones.
Copoutitis ill becomes you.
> It's the wrong question, whether or not someone
> can prove God exists/doesn't exist. It's not even
> a really meaningful question, you know?
But it is. To prove your deity exists, merely
PRODUCE IT, right here in broad daylight in front of
us skeptics for all to admire. Couldn't be simpler.
To prove your deity doesn't exist, keep resolutely
claimiing it does but failing to provide such proof
that it does. Piece of cake, deists have been doing
it for well past 20 millennia without a single
counterexample or even dropped stitch.
> Unless you truly believe that human mental power
> is capable of grasping every single thread, of
> unraveling and laying bare every possible fact
> about the universe? To see every
> interrelationship, large and small, to catalog and
> document everything from every angle? I don't
> believe that. I don't believe nature would hold
> still for that kind of examination.
I'm not too busy trying to hold Chaos Reified to any
touchstone, merely the twaddle deists keep trying to
pass off as, like, TRUE dude, and murdering the rest
of us for disagreeing.
Sorry, but "jolly tiny dancing man in the desk
drawer" isn't an excuse for murdering 10,000 Jews in
a one day battle in just one Crusade, or shooting
rockets from helicopters into crowded West Bank
streets in hopes of also hitting some baddie on
whose co-location you have fair evidence.
You've got to PRODUCE the guy with the addictive and
confrontational "smoting with fire and brimstone"
habit acting as your chorus director who said
"murder them all or feel my wrath" to get forgiven
for that kind of activity, or we think you did it
because you were just a bunch of murderous twerps
out for a stroll through someone elses freshly
disemboweled intestines for the sheer joy of the
scene, or in celebration of Be Kind to Crows and
Flies Day, and making up this "God Told Me To Do
It" bilge as you find new entertainments in the
"rape, torture, murder, pillage, loot, and conquer"
genre that might otherwise look the teensiest bit,
well, immoral of you.
xanthian, unforgiving to a fault.
Bibliophilia
> "Bibliophilia" <cmi...@crs.loc.gov> wrote:
>
> > Kent, you're a smart interesting guy, but I see
> > you and your band of warriors
>
> That would be my pet pocket mouse?
Well, one must work with materials at hand. :)
*snip*
> > shield at the ready,
>
> Me being a bit crippled in the left arm, perhaps a
> freshly ironed aluminum foil telepathy deflection
> beenie would suffice? I sure can't heft one of
> those middle ages thingies.
That's not very sweeping or romantic, if this battle is about emotion,
right and wrong, etc. But, materials at hand!
*snip*
> >> evidence for the existence of werewolves,
>
> > For sure. God's existence, because of the way
> > he's defined, is like werewolves or unicorns or
> > the tiny jolly dancing man who lives the top
> > drawer of my office desk ....
>
> Nope. We're talking burning bushes, column of fire
> by night, of smoke by day, fingers pointing to the
> egress from Eden, thunderbolts from on high unto
> malefactors, buggerers smote 'til their cities were
> flat....
> Remember, to the deists, this crap isn't merely
> true, it's True.
Well, it's okay with me if they believe in it. It might be true - I
wasn't there that I recall.
> > If either side claims hard evidence that God
> > exists or doesn't exist, they're deluding
> > themselves, because this is like the little man in
> > the drawer. "God exists" is one of the undecidable
> > propositions in logic. A belief system based on
> > hard evidence is facts, and the whole point of
> > religion is mystery, is faith without seeing
> > entirely, of grasping for something that is too
> > big and too important to be netted by human
> > brains, even very logical ones.
>
> Copoutitis ill becomes you.
You slander me, good sir. :) It is not a cop out to admit that there
might be facts that our system of logic produces undecidable
propositions about. God is one of them. I mean, I don't think
recognizing that logic isn't a system that can deal with God in a
decidable way is a cop out, it's just an acknowledgement that no
logical system is complete and internally consistent, if you pardon me
stretching that idea a little. (I see math majors wincing.)
If you presuppose an item that can do anything, per force, you have
created an item the system can't handle. I mean, once you allow an
omnipotent God, you have to allow for the possibility of werewolves,
dancing men in my desk -anything is possible, because we have allowed
it via this item. The item "God" decrees it; and it Becomes So.
Unless you wanna argue with me that "An omnipotent God exists" is not a
well-formed statement before we argue whether it is decidable
logically, but I don't think it is legal to disallow the formulation of
the statement because it causes logical contradiction. I think you
have to allow the statement, find the contradiction, and declare it
"false." Or "true" or, in this case, "undecidable."
If the system can't decide, you have to make a best guess. Life is
hard and you often have to work iwth incomplete information, right?
This is one of those times.
> > It's the wrong question, whether or not someone
> > can prove God exists/doesn't exist. It's not even
> > a really meaningful question, you know?
>
> But it is. To prove your deity exists, merely
> PRODUCE IT, right here in broad daylight in front of
> us skeptics for all to admire. Couldn't be simpler.
Yes, but you know, as a logical man, that failure to produce evidence
of something doesn't magically cause it to not exist. The system for
discovering what is real (i.e., experimental method, coupled with
logic) doesn't work that way - it only reveals what is already there,
it doesn't eliminate things it can't discover.
> To prove your deity doesn't exist, keep resolutely
> claimiing it does but failing to provide such proof
> that it does.
I am going to let this one slide, because I know you are being humerous
and hyperbolic here - I wouldn't insult you by literally believing you
think that failing to find evidence of something *proves* its
non-existence. You're too smart for that mistake.
>
> Sorry, but "jolly tiny dancing man in the desk
> drawer" isn't an excuse for murdering 10,000 Jews in
> a one day battle in just one Crusade, or shooting
> rockets from helicopters into crowded West Bank
> streets in hopes of also hitting some baddie on
> whose co-location you have fair evidence.
Of course not. There is no excuse for murder and mayhem. There are
always reasons, but never a really good excuse. I don't think that
this impacts the existence of God, I think it reveals the stupid nature
of man pretty good, though.
Kate Orman
> Atheists therefore reserve the right to treat
> religion, as religion, as a dangerous disorder of
> the human psyche, to be cured if possible, resisted
> in any case, or if necessary in self-defense,
> fought, just as one would fight plagues of rats or
> other vermin.
*contaminates you via religion-infected saliva*
(Method your choice.)
- K
Spud Demon
>[The girlfriend, rescued off the street, started praising me in
>pillow talk for all the things I'd "done for her".
>
>This list translated almost directly word for word into "I was
>hungry, and you fed me, I was injured, and you succored
>me, I was cold, and you sheltered me".
>
>Not too shabby, for an atheist.]
"I was horny, and you boinked me."
__Kent's Home For Hot Single Homeless Women__: I see a great need.
-- spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net
The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.
Kate Orman
> I'm not too busy trying to hold Chaos Reified to any
> touchstone, merely the twaddle deists keep trying to
> pass off as, like, TRUE dude, and murdering the rest
> of us for disagreeing.
Deluded and insane believer that I am, I nonetheless share your wrath
at the belief in things that are demonstrably untrue or clearly
ridiculous; and at belief being used as an excuse to kill people and
get their stuff; and at the long, strong association of religion with
these sins.
However, religion and spirituality encompass much, much more than
dogma, superstition, and violence. When hardline atheists insult and
deride all belief and believers, they are attacking allies as well as
enemies, peacemakers as well as bigots, sceptics as well as dullards,
freethinkers as well as inquisitors, scholars as well as ignorami, the
innocent, the curious, the lovers, the dreamers, and me.
- K
Kate Orman
Kent Paul Dolan wrote:
> "Ace Lightning" <acelig...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > the kind of atheists Bibliophilia is talking about
> > have a dogmatic "belief in the non-existence of
> > Deity". they are every bit as convinced that a
> > Deity *cannot* exist as the dogmatic theists are
> > convinced that there *is* a Deity.
>
> There's still a huge difference _in kind_.
Yes, indeed. Otherwise, snap.
- K
Kate Orman
> But it is. To prove your deity exists, merely
> PRODUCE IT, right here in broad daylight in front of
> us skeptics for all to admire. Couldn't be simpler.
*picks a small flower and hands it to you*
- K
Ace Lightning
when i was younger, i really wanted to be an atheist - like
Kent, i found the human insistence on illogical beliefs
to be something i wanted to overcome. but whenever i went
looking for more information about atheism, i ran up against
that same old dogmatic mind-set; all they've done is invert
the dogma. (then, of course, i had some personal experiences
that led me to Wicca, but i don't expect my own subjective
feelings to convince anyone else.)
nikolai kingsley
> However, religion and spirituality encompass much, much more than
> dogma, superstition, and violence.
such as the idea that Nethack can actually be won.
Ace Lightning
>To prove your deity doesn't exist, keep resolutely
>claimiing it does but failing to provide such proof
>that it does. Piece of cake, deists have been doing
>it for well past 20 millennia without a single
>counterexample or even dropped stitch.
that still isn't proof. as we've all mentioned several
times already in this conversation, "lack of proof of
existence" does not equal "proof of lack of existence".
maybe there is a deity, but he/she/it/them doesn't
want to be bothered showing up when a mere human demands
it. maybe said deity is on its way to provide that proof,
but considers 20 millennia a mere eyeblink, and will
get here in its own sweet time. there are many other
possible explanations besides mere non-existence.
>You've got to PRODUCE the guy with the addictive and
>confrontational "smoting with fire and brimstone"
>habit acting as your chorus director who said
>"murder them all or feel my wrath" to get forgiven
>for that kind of activity,
but that's only one of myriads of behavior patterns that
have been ascribed to deity. what about the peaceful,
love-thy-neighbor, turn-the-other-cheek hippie dude who
may or may not be the son of the wrathful smiter? what
about the pregnant fat broad? what about the completely
unknowable?
"We've got gods _ad infinatum_ -
Now here comes another datum:
When we need more, we create 'em,
And that's good enough for me!"
Ace Lightning
thank you, Kate - you've said it far better than i did.
Kent Paul Dolan
> "I was horny, and you boinked me."
And the sad thing is, the horniness _grows_ in
response to the boinking. She'll be the death of me
yet. She's channeling a Dickens character: every two
hours of the night, I hear "more sex, please, sir".
> __Kent's Home For Hot Single Homeless Women__: I
> see a great need.
My explosively, violently insane S.O. [soon to be my
heavily-armed e.v.i.S.O., former down-put-er of
injured horses and cattle, crooner of "Happiness is
a Warm Gun"], would like to have words with you
about your use of the plural in that sentence. Did I
mention that one of the earthly manifestations of
her insanity is a green-eyed monster, though her own
eyes are more of a hazel?
xanthian, in cornered rat mode.
Spud Demon
>My explosively, violently insane S.O. [soon to be my
>heavily-armed e.v.i.S.O., former down-put-er of
>injured horses and cattle, crooner of "Happiness is
>a Warm Gun"], would like to have words with you
>about your use of the plural in that sentence.
In my final moment before she down-puts me, I'll be sure to explain what
that song is really about. (Hint: "I need a fix 'cause I'm going down"
does concern shooting but not with firearms.)
Ruediger
The execution of Jesus was performed by romans and under roman law, so
technically spoken using our nowaday classical "follow-up" rule regarding
public responsibility, it'S the catholic church as the only legal survivor
of the roman empire who had Jesus sentenced and terminated.
Isn't really good propaganda, isn't it?
Excession wrote:
> Here in Australia, the concept of 'jewish' is as fleeting as
> Thanksgiving. It just doesn't come up in day to day life.
>
> But in American TV shows and films, the very act of existing and being
> of Jewish extraction, appears to be a curse.
>
> Other than exceptionally large noses and an odd set of religious
> notions, plus a huge problem with the whole Holocaust thing (I haven't
> mentioned Nazi's yet, not really), Jewish people are just people.
>
> Why the fuck are they so reviled and hated? Oh, there's the Shylock
> thing, money-grubbing because they are that way inclined -- but so are
> the Dutch and the Scottish and quite a lot of America has a 'penny
> saved is a penny earned' culture. You don't see Dutch people getting
> a global "ambulatory colostomy bag" labelling? (Well, not often).
>
> The hate against the Jews is one thing, the fucking total paranoia of
> Jews about -everything- is another. Isn't Woody Allan Jewish? Or if
> I said 'Kent, you're a fucking Jew' would he be really, I mean,
> mortally offended? (not that I think Kent is anything other than
> mentally different to most others).
>
> No, I don't want Nazi sympathisers knocking on my virtual door or my
> real door, threatening to edjumacate me about the implicit evil that
> comes of being Jewish. Just a few lines of semi-rational explanation.
>
> The whole 'Jews killed Christ' thing is just ancient, is that all it
> is?
>
>
--
Sincerely
Ruediger
kevindotcar
[---]
> Also, some atheists *are* annoying. The annoying ones are the ones who
> think
>
> 1. their belief about God isn't a belief, it's a fact
Well, I believe that God is actually a woman. When I tell my Rabbi
this he tells me to give him more details.
So I tell him also; I'd bet a donut that Zipporah wrote the 10
commandments and that that gonif Moses took the credit- I'm telling
you; the only limits of chutzpah are of what a bamzer thinks they can
get away with.
[---]
> In fact, now that I think about it, annoying atheists are annoying for
> the same reasons annoying Baptists, Lutherans, Catholics, Buddhists,
> and other annoying religious flavors are annoying.
>
> And now that *I* have annoyed everyone .....
Oy- if you think *you're* annoying, we have quite a few shmendriks to
hear from before this conversation is over.
kDot
Kent Paul Dolan
> However, religion and spirituality encompass
> much, much more than dogma, superstition, and
> violence.
If they do, they are so drowned in the signal of
dogma, superstition, and violence [also, ignorance,
gullibility, greed, self-delusion, fear, and
power-seeking] as to count only as random noise.
I've never seen the least evidence, on mature
consideration, of anything "nice" about religion
_or_ spirituality, in now 62 years of living, and
find only sadness for my friends who have fallen
prey to such frauds.
For recent example, when asked for "evidence of God",
you handed me a (conceptual) flower. Yet websites
abound where art, thence beauty, are created by the
simple and well known forces of evolution, no deity
need apply. Merely because the genesis of something
"wonderful" is to a single individual unknown, is
no reason for that individual to fall prey to the
thirst for "unseen beneficent powers" that _must_
have created that wonderful something.
Humans are so immensely uncomfortable with not
_knowing_ things, they invent or accept nonsensical
answers at the drop of a whim, rather than make the
much profounder intellectual effort to say "I don't
know" and let that _suffice_(*).
FWIW
xanthian.
(*) This might be perhaps for all time, perhaps
instead at least until reliable answers not
involving unseeable, untestable, and unknowable
forces, faith in which incidentally tends to line
some unworthy pocket, are found.
Kent Paul Dolan
> However, religion and spirituality encompass much,
> much more than dogma, superstition, and violence.
> When hardline atheists insult and deride all
> belief and believers, they are attacking allies as
> well as enemies, peacemakers as well as bigots,
> sceptics as well as dullards, freethinkers as well
> as inquisitors, scholars as well as ignorami, the
> innocent, the curious, the lovers, the dreamers,
> and me.
[It is impossible to resist driving in a thumbtack
to be coffin nail to your thesis, with this recently
encountered tac nuke for my hammer.]
You must be very disturbed by Voltaire, then:
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make
you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Luckily, however respected, "Voltaire" turns out to
be a mere pseudonym, and so safely ignored by The
Faithful.
FWIW, and unfairly at that.
xanthian.
Ace Lightning
>I've never seen the least evidence, on mature
>consideration, of anything "nice" about religion
>_or_ spirituality, in now 62 years of living, and
>find only sadness for my friends who have fallen
>prey to such frauds.
what about people who participate in genuinely charitable
activities (such as helping the homeless) through their
religious organizations? even i can't argue with someone
who "walks their talk" that way, no matter what brand of
kookery they label themselves with.
also, there's a *HUGE* difference between religion and
spirituality. (the only reason i have any ties to Wicca
is because it comes closest to providing a framework that
fits my own personal spirituality. but, even though i'm
a Priestess, there's an awful lot of stuff i simply ignore,
because it *doesn't* fit.)
>For recent example, when asked for "evidence of God",
>you handed me a (conceptual) flower. Yet websites
>abound where art, thence beauty, are created by the
>simple and well known forces of evolution, no deity
>need apply. Merely because the genesis of something
>"wonderful" is to a single individual unknown, is
>no reason for that individual to fall prey to the
>thirst for "unseen beneficent powers" that _must_
>have created that wonderful something.
>Humans are so immensely uncomfortable with not
>_knowing_ things, they invent or accept nonsensical
>answers at the drop of a whim, rather than make the
>much profounder intellectual effort to say "I don't
>know" and let that _suffice_(*).
i freely admit that i don't know. in fact, a great deal
of my spirituality (see above) comes from my feelings of
mystical wonder at things that are beyond my immediate
comprehension.
when you asked for concrete evidence of Deity, Kate
metaphorically offered you a flower... and i pointed out
the Winter Solstice sunrise that was just coming over my
personal horizon. i'm sure you know that i don't believe
in a literal Sun God who has to be lured back in the
depth of winter. but there's something about the majestic
rhythms of the cycles of the Earth and its Moon, and the
other planets and their moons, around the Sun (and the
equally majestic rhythms of all other planets and moons
around their own suns, even though i have yet to experience
these). focusing my awareness on these patterns gives me
feelings of awe and wonder. what a magnificent Universe we
live in! how full of mysteries and contradictions and
patterns and surprises and terrors and beauties it is!
Kate's flower, the Earth's seasons, and the stunning photos
from the Hubble Telescope are all equally "holy" to me.
and, even, so are you, you cantankerous, stubbornly
atheistic, transparently romantic old curmudgeon, you ;-)
Bibliophilia
Takes up the flower where it has fallen. Sniffs. Admires the petals,
the feel, the symmetry.
Either a person has directly experienced the Thing, the living God, or
they haven't. It's weird, it's non-rational, nonsensical, and
undeniable. Sort of embarrassing, too. :)
nikolai kingsley
> what about people who participate in genuinely charitable
> activities (such as helping the homeless) through their
> religious organizations? even i can't argue with someone
> who "walks their talk" that way, no matter what brand of
> kookery they label themselves with.
the ones that do the most work in those organisations, i've found, are
the ones who do the least ballyhooing about "prrrrraisin' the larrrrd",
also the least passing of the collection plate.
example: Sam Radojevic, the guy who started the "Bikes for Kids" program
i was involved with. full-on Essene Christian, but he didn't shove it
down people's throats - he gets on with helping, the best way he knows.
one of the few Christians i've ever met that i admire. you can imagine
how rare that is.
nikolai kingsley
>>*picks a small flower and hands it to you*
>
>
> Takes up the flower where it has fallen. Sniffs. Admires the petals,
> the feel, the symmetry.
uh.. you gonne eat that?
Ace Lightning
when it comes down to it, it's works, not faith, that counts.
or as John Lennon put it...
"and, in the end, the love you take
is equal to the love you make..."
Bibliophilia
Oh! Sorry, here you go!
imbibe@mindspring.com (David Polewka)
Kent Paul Dolan wrote:
>
> It is quite reasonable to say to a deist: you say
> your deity exists? Present it here and now for all
> to see.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/conditions/11/30/pdg.lobotomy/index.html
Survivor recounts lobotomy at age 12
Procedure once considered legitimate medical treatment
By A. Chris Gajilan
CNN
Wednesday, November 30, 2005; Posted: 7:07 p.m. EST (00:07 GMT)
(CNN) -- Howard Dully was 12 years old when he was told he was going to
the hospital for some tests.
"I remember having big black swollen eyes one day and staying in the
hospital for a few days because apparently I had an infection," recalls
Dully, now 56, who lives in San Jose, California.
That's all Dully can remember of the transorbital or "ice pick"
lobotomy performed on him more than 40 years ago.
Many in the medical community consider lobotomies barbaric by today's
standards, but there was a time when the procedure was an accepted
treatment for those suffering from severe mental illness.
Throughout the 1930s, '40s and most of the '50s, the main route of
treatment for most of these patients was to keep them institutionalized
in often filthy, deplorable conditions until they got better on their
own. Many remained for years, even decades.
Then came the lobotomy. It was first performed in 1935 in Portugal by
Dr. Egas Moniz, who later would win the Nobel Prize in physiology and
medicine for the technique.
Neurologist Walter J. Freeman quickly brought the lobotomy to the
United States, first performing it in 1936. A few months later the
procedure made the front page of The New York Times with the headline
"Surgery Used on the Soul Sick."
"The medical treatments were not effective, and it was an advanced step
over what was previously available," says Dr. Robert Lichtenstein, a
neurosurgeon who performed lobotomies for treatment of severe pain.
Lobotomy was a welcome treatment based on the premise that symptoms of
mental illness were caused by faulty connections between the frontal
lobes and another part of the brain -- the thalamus. The idea was that
severing those connections and regrowing them could treat symptoms of
the mental illness.
"It wasn't a case of removing sections of the brain or cutting out
pieces, it was severing particular neural pathways," says Jack El-Hai,
author of "The Lobotomist," a biography of Freeman.
At the time, it was practically the only effective treatment for severe
depression, schizophrenia, suicidal tendencies and other mental
disorders.
Tens of thousands had lobotomies
Over the years, lobotomies were done on about 40,000 to 50,000 people
in the United States in mental institutions and hospitals, El-Hai says.
About 10,000 of those procedures were transorbital or "ice pick"
lobotomies, as Freeman himself referred to the procedure. (Doctors used
a long, ice pick-like device inserted above the eye through the thin
layer of bone, penetrating into the brain's frontal lobe.)
Freeman performed about 3,400 transorbital lobotomies himself,
according to El-Hai; many others were done by psychiatrists trained by
Freeman as he traveled across the country.
While the older, far more invasive prefrontal lobotomy involved
anesthesia, then drilling into the skull, the transorbital lobotomy was
performed in 10 minutes without any major incisions. According to
El-Hai, Freeman performed an all-time high of 24 lobotomies in one day
in West Virginia.
"The transorbital one could be done much more economically and quickly,
and it was worthwhile to do it that way," Lichtenstein said.
According to estimates in Freeman's records, about a third of the
lobotomies were considered successful. One of those was performed on
Ann Krubsack, who is now in her 70s.
"Dr. Freeman helped me when the electric shock treatments, the medicine
and the insulin shot treatments didn't work," she said.
Krubsack said she endured schizophrenia for eight years until she had
her lobotomy in 1961.
But the majority of patients did not do well -- some died, many were
paralyzed and in the cases in which patients were well enough to leave
the hospital after the procedure, many were left childlike and devoid
of personality.
"What did success mean in [Freeman's] mind? Mainly it meant getting out
of the hospital, and these people who returned home from the hospital
came home with severe disabilities from their lobotomies," El-Hai says.
Doctors opt for nonsurgical procedures
Finally in 1954, Thorazine, an antipsychotic medication, became
available in the United States, and fewer lobotomies were performed as
doctors opted for nonsurgical treatment.
But Freeman disagreed with the new trend and continued to perform
lobotomies after most of the medical community considered the procedure
obsolete.
"He began advocating lobotomies for patients like Howard Dully who, if
they had psychiatric disorders at all, were not seriously ill, and he
began advocating it as an early intervention," El-Hai says.
According to medical records, Freeman diagnosed Dully as a
schizophrenic -- a diagnosis that would not have held today, Dully's
current doctors say.
Dully was lobotomized before any other treatment or medication was
tried.
Now an adult, Dully has one question for Freeman: "Why did you go that
far when it was plainly evident to the rest of the world that it was
not a good thing? Why did you continue?"
Dully says he will never know what his life would have been like if he
hadn't had the surgery. "I think I'm intelligent enough now," he says.
"I probably would have been as intelligent enough then. But what
specifically have I lost that I'm not capable of doing mentally, I
can't answer that."
In 1967, Freeman performed his final lobotomy on a patient who died
from a brain hemorrhage. He was never allowed to operate in another
hospital again and died of cancer in 1972.
.
.
--
nikolai kingsley
>>>>*picks a small flower and hands it to you*
>>>
>>>Takes up the flower where it has fallen. Sniffs. Admires the petals,
>>>the feel, the symmetry.
>
>>uh.. you gonne eat that?
>
> Oh! Sorry, here you go!
oh, hey, i didn't want to eat it. i just wanted to know if you wanted to
eat it.
--
"If you want a problem solved, you add to it until somebody solves it."
- Too Much Coffee Man