for cantueso
Ace Lightning
the first two are "free verse", as we've been discussing; the
last one is extremely structured, and i'm mainly including it
to prove that i *can* write structured as well as unstructured
poetry.
-------------------------------------------------------------
i dream in ultraviolet:
a nameless color beyond pain,
searing black-light darkness,
cold as chrome,
visible to only a few;
when i wake, weeping,
will my tears glow in the dark?
-------------------------------------------------------------
night/rain/wind
night
rain
wind
late autumn, cold and raw,
the crying time of year.
cold steady rain
falls slantwise in the dark,
in the wind that cries out
with a sound like sorrow.
somewhere, very far away,
i know tears are falling
like the slow drip of blood
from a self-inflicted wound.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sonnet: Nightwalker
Forgive me if I think of you as prey,
But your warm pulse reminds me of my need;
Protected from the light, I've slept all day,
And night has fallen now, and I must feed.
In spite of all your myths about my breed,
Your holy symbols won't turn me away;
I've walked by night too long to hold a creed;
If there are gods, they do not hear me pray.
I promise not to drain your life away,
Although your blood is warm and sweet indeed!
And what I take from you, I will repay;
I'll make you sigh with pleasure as you bleed.
But you will never understand my way;
Forgive me if I think of you as prey.
-------------------------------------------------------------
cantueso
very nice!! imagine! a sonnet, and just as neat as if it had been
made silently at night by the fairies that work when people sleep. a
sonnet!
do you know, goethe once bitched he would try but could not bring it
off. he said it would look like patchwork. I do not know anything
about it. I have no idea why it sounds so festive. I only know
Shakespeare's. machado wrote some, but they did not come off. what is
it? there is something strictly rational about it, and also something
tense.
when I began reading yours, I did not immediately see that it was
going to be a sonnet. I don't even know what the definition of a
sonnet is (except the 14 lines, and now I wonder who the joker was
that wrote the 13 line sonnet...and really nice)
the tension is because the form is so predictable, when the idea is
not.
as to the señorita who versified her table top performance,
I have just seen that Rafael Alberti calls them "cómplices de la
muerte", those who contribute to feed what Shakespeare called "the
jaws of darkness".
cantueso
I have not yet found the cat lyrics, because I can't remember what
news group that would have been.
but this morning I had to go to the notary public here, real folklore,
incredible. so I read Rafael Alberti in the waiting room:
(on a visit to a British museum)
""Liotard, Nattier, Rowlandson, Watts...Prefiero
un mínimo velero,
lejando, entre las grúas -- adiós! -- como un pañuelo.""
(a minute sail boat
distant, among the cranes -- bye bye! -- like a hanky)
cantueso
lejano.
not, as I typed, "lejando"
Ace Lightning
(i notice that you have nothing to say about my attempts
at free verse...)
>> Sonnet: Nightwalker
>very nice!! imagine! a sonnet, and just as neat as if it had been
>made silently at night by the fairies that work when people sleep. a
>sonnet!
as i said, i'm capable of writing structured poetry as well.
(Picasso painted highly realistic, almost photographic pictures,
but abandoned that style in favor of his now-famous abstract
art. he once said that he had to be able to paint realistically
before he could paint abstractly.)
>do you know, goethe once bitched he would try but could not bring it
>off. he said it would look like patchwork. I do not know anything
>about it. I have no idea why it sounds so festive. I only know
>Shakespeare's. machado wrote some, but they did not come off. what is
>it? there is something strictly rational about it, and also something
>tense.
the sonnet is uniquely tuned to the English language.
due to the structure of the language, spoken English
tends to fall into iambic pentameter, and the rhyme
scheme of the sonnet is a relatively simple one, like
many folk songs and verses. i would think it's a lot
harder to write a sonnet in German or Spanish than in
English.
>when I began reading yours, I did not immediately see that it was
>going to be a sonnet. I don't even know what the definition of a
>sonnet is (except the 14 lines, and now I wonder who the joker was
>that wrote the 13 line sonnet...and really nice)
a 13-line sonnet? that's like saying "a bowl of dry water"!
Ace Lightning
>I have not yet found the cat lyrics, because I can't remember what
>news group that would have been.
>but this morning I had to go to the notary public here, real folklore,
>incredible. so I read Rafael Alberti in the waiting room:
>(on a visit to a British museum)
>""Liotard, Nattier, Rowlandson, Watts...Prefiero
>un mínimo velero,
>(a minute sail boat
>distant, among the cranes -- bye bye! -- like a hanky)
i think he's referring to the overly dramatic style of
the painters he mentions. it's a very nice image -
the simplicity of a little sailboat in the distance,
its white sail like a white handkerchief waving goodbye.
contrasting that with the elaborate paintings in the
museum.
cantueso
> cantueso wrote:
>
> (i notice that you have nothing to say about my attempts
> at free verse...)
because I cannot see them as different from the poetry that I have
seen in an anthology. I told you I was not a poetry reader.
>
> >> Sonnet: Nightwalker
> >very nice!! imagine! a sonnet, and just as neat as if it had been
> >made silently at night by the fairies that work when people sleep. a
> >sonnet!
>
> as i said, i'm capable of writing structured poetry as well.
> (Picasso painted highly realistic, almost photographic pictures,
> but abandoned that style in favor of his now-famous abstract
> art. he once said that he had to be able to paint realistically
> before he could paint abstractly.)
I wonder. the transition from one to the other came as a mass
movement, not an individual development. and I frown at the term
"realistic". let's say figurative instead.
>
> >do you know, goethe once bitched he would try but could not bring it
> >off. he said it would look like patchwork. I do not know anything
> >about it. I have no idea why it sounds so festive. I only know
> >Shakespeare's. machado wrote some, but they did not come off. what is
> >it? there is something strictly rational about it, and also something
> >tense.
>
> the sonnet is uniquely tuned to the English language.
> due to the structure of the language, spoken English
> tends to fall into iambic pentameter, and the rhyme
> scheme of the sonnet is a relatively simple one, like
> many folk songs and verses. i would think it's a lot
> harder to write a sonnet in German or Spanish than in
> English.
I think the great Spanish sonnets were baroque. the ones I have seen
sound pompous, intentionally elaborate, vainly philosophical; do you
know the Shakespeare verse towards the end of the Tempest "...the
cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces.....the great globe
itself....leave not a rack behind"? tem...@4.1.148 that is the
subject of the Spanish sonnets that I know, build up something big and
then say it's nothing.
>
> >when I began reading yours, I did not immediately see that it was
> >going to be a sonnet. I don't even know what the definition of a
> >sonnet is (except the 14 lines, and now I wonder who the joker was
> >that wrote the 13 line sonnet...and really nice)
>
> a 13-line sonnet? that's like saying "a bowl of dry water"!
no. I found it immediatrely, but it is no good. it is by Ruben Dario.
it is a flop. maybe he published it because it was a flop, since he
and everybody else knew that the metric harmony of his poetry often
makes it sound too pretty to be true. maybe he had to show that he
could also land on his fanny (?) once in a while.
cantueso
> >""Liotard, Nattier, Rowlandson, Watts...Prefiero
> >un mínimo velero,
> >lejano, entre las grúas -- adiós! -- como un pañuelo.""
> >(a minute sail boat
> >distant, among the cranes -- bye bye! -- like a hanky)
>
> i think he's referring to the overly dramatic style of
> the painters he mentions. it's a very nice image -
> the simplicity of a little sailboat in the distance,
> its white sail like a white handkerchief waving goodbye.
> contrasting that with the elaborate paintings in the
> museum.
he thought those paintings too cold.
he wrote all his great poetry before he was 30.
later, he and neruda may have been financed by Moscow. they both wrote
poetry admiring the idea of 100000000000000 hands producing
10000000000000 tons of wheat across 10000000000000000000 miles of land
Belanger
<ace.li...@verizon.net> wrote:
>the sonnet is uniquely tuned to the English language.
>due to the structure of the language, spoken English
>tends to fall into iambic pentameter, and the rhyme
>scheme of the sonnet is a relatively simple one, like
>many folk songs and verses. i would think it's a lot
>harder to write a sonnet in German or Spanish than in
>English.
I believe that the whole sonnet thing got started by Petrarch, an
Italian guy.
--
BELANGER
'Course, the rhyming structure was a little different, but whatever.
cantueso
http://www.los-poetas.com/a/dario2.htm#EL SONETO DE TRECE VERSOS
it is almost not worth looking up, it is so bad.
however, on the same page you might find part III of "Los Cisnes", the
story of Leda and her divine lover told in fairly explicit terms, in
case you like that kind of thing, which was Dario's specialty, a bit
too unidirectionally for my tastes.
which brings me back to the content of your sonnet. it is a little too
much that way, too.
the thing is this: the way your dancing pig treats men is the way she
treats her readers.
the way somebody treats an anonymous individual in an anonymous
context is what mathematicians would call a constant and is therefore
a nearly infallible character test.
that's it. here it is. took me a long time to figure this out.
Ace Lightning
>>(i notice that you have nothing to say about my attempts
>>at free verse...)
>because I cannot see them as different from the poetry that I have
>seen in an anthology. I told you I was not a poetry reader.
that's fair, although i'm vain and/or insecure enough to
have hoped you might have opinions on them.
>>>> Sonnet: Nightwalker
>>>very nice!! imagine! a sonnet, and just as neat as if it had been
>>>made silently at night by the fairies that work when people sleep. a
>>>sonnet!
>>as i said, i'm capable of writing structured poetry as well.
>>(Picasso painted highly realistic, almost photographic pictures,
>>but abandoned that style in favor of his now-famous abstract
>>art. he once said that he had to be able to paint realistically
>>before he could paint abstractly.)
>I wonder. the transition from one to the other came as a mass
>movement, not an individual development. and I frown at the term
>"realistic". let's say figurative instead.
i'm not much of an art expert, but i believe that Picasso's
transition from highly representational to abstract forms
occurred over several years at least. i remember seeing one
of his paintings where the images were somewhat distorted, but
still mostly recognizable.
>>the sonnet is uniquely tuned to the English language.
>>due to the structure of the language, spoken English
>>tends to fall into iambic pentameter, and the rhyme
>>scheme of the sonnet is a relatively simple one, like
>>many folk songs and verses. i would think it's a lot
>>harder to write a sonnet in German or Spanish than in
>>English.
>I think the great Spanish sonnets were baroque. the ones I have seen
>sound pompous, intentionally elaborate, vainly philosophical; do you
>know the Shakespeare verse towards the end of the Tempest "...the
>cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces.....the great globe
>itself....leave not a rack behind"? tem...@4.1.148 that is the
>subject of the Spanish sonnets that I know, build up something big and
>then say it's nothing.
that sounds so typically Spanish! to me, as an American,
it often seems as if part of the "national character" of
the Spanish people involves a need to intensify and
dramatize everything around them. everything is either
grandiose and gorgeous, or utterly wretched and meaningless.
there are no tepid emotions, only extremes of love, hate,
exaltation, or depression. colors must always be brighter
than in "real life" - even black is "blacker". i don't
mean this as a criticism, just as an observation. and
this dramatic approach to life has a place, just as the
exaggeratedly understated approach of the British has a place.
>>>when I began reading yours, I did not immediately see that it was
>>>going to be a sonnet. I don't even know what the definition of a
>>>sonnet is (except the 14 lines, and now I wonder who the joker was
>>>that wrote the 13 line sonnet...and really nice)
>> a 13-line sonnet? that's like saying "a bowl of dry water"!
>no. I found it immediatrely, but it is no good. it is by Ruben Dario.
>it is a flop. maybe he published it because it was a flop, since he
>and everybody else knew that the metric harmony of his poetry often
>makes it sound too pretty to be true. maybe he had to show that he
>could also land on his fanny (?) once in a while.
a sonnet is defined as a poem in iambic pentameter, with
fourteen lines that conform to one of several rhyme schemes.
it is the rhyme scheme which determines whether a sonnet is
"Petrarchan", "Shakespearean", etc. in addition, there is
supposed to be a subtle shift in meaning at one of the
metrical dividing points of the poem.
oh, and "fanny" means "buttocks, arse, rear end"
(se dice "nalgas, culo") in American English, but in
British English it refers to the female genitalia.
>http://www.los-poetas.com/a/dario2.htm#EL SONETO DE TRECE VERSOS
>it is almost not worth looking up, it is so bad.
it's also not a sonnet - it is not in iambic pentameter.
>however, on the same page you might find part III of "Los Cisnes", the
>story of Leda and her divine lover told in fairly explicit terms, in
>case you like that kind of thing, which was Dario's specialty, a bit
>too unidirectionally for my tastes.
i don't find that "explicit" at all. in fact, for a Spanish
poem, it's rather restrained.
>which brings me back to the content of your sonnet. it is a little too
>much that way, too.
among other things, a sonnet is *supposed* to focus on
one fairly clearly defined subject.
>the thing is this: the way your dancing pig treats men is the way she
>treats her readers.
>the way somebody treats an anonymous individual in an anonymous
>context is what mathematicians would call a constant and is therefore
>a nearly infallible character test.
>that's it. here it is. took me a long time to figure this out.
i'm sorry, but i have no idea what you mean by that.
Ace Lightning
>>>""Liotard, Nattier, Rowlandson, Watts...Prefiero
>>>un mínimo velero,
>>>lejano, entre las grúas -- adiós! -- como un pañuelo.""
>>>(a minute sail boat
>>>distant, among the cranes -- bye bye! -- like a hanky)
>>i think he's referring to the overly dramatic style of
>>the painters he mentions. it's a very nice image -
>>the simplicity of a little sailboat in the distance,
>>its white sail like a white handkerchief waving goodbye.
>>contrasting that with the elaborate paintings in the
>>museum.
>he thought those paintings too cold.
>he wrote all his great poetry before he was 30.
>later, he and neruda may have been financed by Moscow. they both wrote
>poetry admiring the idea of 100000000000000 hands producing
>10000000000000 tons of wheat across 10000000000000000000 miles of land
frankly, i find most paintings over-rated anyway. some while
ago, i went to the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, DC.
this is a complex of many museums, including two art museums.
my companions kept wanting to go into the bigger of the two
art museums and look at more paintings. i told them they could
find me at the National Air and Space Museum when they were done.
Bob Bain
<ace.li...@verizon.net> wrote in message id
<40C55D1E...@verizon.net>:
>frankly, i find most paintings over-rated anyway.
As you are discussing things Spanish I might not in passing that the
most fascinating painting I ever viewed was in the Purdo gallery in
Madrid. It comprised lots of detail and it was large. As one looked
into the painting the eye focussed on some particular detail but
within that detail was even more detail.
I spent about 2 hours viewing that painting and I don't even recall
who painted it, nor what title was ascribed to it by the artist.
I rated the Purdo gallery much higher in value than the traditional
bull fight which was almost mandatory for tourists. Bull fights
aren't fights. They are simply a ritualised slaughter of animals.
Bob Bain
in message id <pcsac0h8nh42emcls...@4ax.com>:
> As you are discussing things Spanish I might not in passing that the
>most fascinating painting I ever viewed was in the Purdo gallery
Prado gallery
Prado gallery...
Too much plonk (apologies)....
Ace Lightning
>>frankly, i find most paintings over-rated anyway.
> As you are discussing things Spanish I might not in passing that the
>most fascinating painting I ever viewed was in the Purdo gallery in
>Madrid. It comprised lots of detail and it was large. As one looked
>into the painting the eye focussed on some particular detail but
>within that detail was even more detail.
> I spent about 2 hours viewing that painting and I don't even recall
>who painted it, nor what title was ascribed to it by the artist.
was it representational or abstract? could it have been
Picasso's famous "Guernica"?
> I rated the Purdo gallery much higher in value than the traditional
>bull fight which was almost mandatory for tourists. Bull fights
>aren't fights. They are simply a ritualised slaughter of animals.
> Prado gallery
> Prado gallery...
> Too much plonk (apologies)....
i'm not sure if "slaughter" is the correct term for what
happens in a bullfight... it appears to be more of a ritual
animal sacrifice. there was an elaborate ritual in ancient
Crete, where young men and women "danced" with the sacrificial
bull, often grabbing its horns and vaulting onto the animal's
back. they were, however, unarmed; the work of killing the
bull was done by other functionaries. i don't believe that
anyone has shown any conclusive links between ancient Cretan
bull-leaping and Spanish bullfighting as it's done today, but
there's a bit too much similarity for it to be entirely a
coincidence...
cantueso
> cantueso wrote:
>
> frankly, i find most paintings over-rated anyway.
with this sentence you ought to make the Guinness
book of world records. with this sentence, the Bushie ought to hire
you as a foreign policy statement advisor. with this
sentence............
frankly, I find the universe over-rated anyway.
some while
> ago, i went to the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, DC.
> this is a complex of many museums, including two art museums.
> my companions kept wanting to go into the bigger of the two
> art museums and look at more paintings. i told them they could
> find me at the National Air and Space Museum when they were done.
and not too long ago, a friend's friend and his girl friend were
touring Spain. when they reached pretty Aranjuez, they said: "what!
another palace!!" and when I asked them what they thought of Spain,
they said: "We like the beer here and Barcelona".
cantueso
> Bob Bain wrote:
> >>frankly, i find most paintings over-rated anyway.
> > As you are discussing things Spanish I might not in passing that the
> >most fascinating painting I ever viewed was in the Purdo gallery in
> >Madrid. It comprised lots of detail and it was large. As one looked
> >into the painting the eye focussed on some particular detail but
> >within that detail was even more detail.
was it modern or old? and what was the subject more or less?
(religious, or landscape, or fantasy or people...)
> > I spent about 2 hours viewing that painting and I don't even recall
> >who painted it, nor what title was ascribed to it by the artist.
>
> was it representational or abstract? could it have been
> Picasso's famous "Guernica"?
>
the Guernica is not at the Prado (anymore). it is at the Reina Sofia.
it is not detailed. it is abstract though each abstraction has become
a symbol almost like a logo each
> > I rated the Purdo gallery much higher in value than the traditional
> >bull fight which was almost mandatory for tourists.
you can't compare that. really.
> Bull fights
> >aren't fights. They are simply a ritualised slaughter of animals.
no. the animal is very very dangerous. very. bull fighters do not die
very frequently anymore, but that is because of the doctors and
surgeons that know how to prevent infections.
still, of hundreds who try, few make it. it is not just a question of
overcoming fear.
the problem is that modern spectators are used to things that have
been rehearsed and brought to technical perfection. of about 200 bull
fights that I have seen, maybe 3 were perfect and another 10 or so
worth seeing. when the Real Thing happens, it is as if first the bull,
then the matador and then the entire audience went into trance.
for these reasons, bull fights organized for tourists are hoaxes.
> > Prado gallery
> > Prado gallery...
> > Too much plonk (apologies)....
>
> i'm not sure if "slaughter" is the correct term for what
> happens in a bullfight... it appears to be more of a ritual
> animal sacrifice. there was an elaborate ritual in ancient
> Crete, where young men and women "danced" with the sacrificial
> bull, often grabbing its horns and vaulting onto the animal's
> back.
it must be of similar origin. as to "arms": the matador does not use
any until the end. he only uses a red cloth to control the bull's
focus in his attack.
a> they were, however, unarmed; the work of killing the
> bull was done by other functionaries.
in the modern bullfight, the moment that the matador decides to kill
is the moment of sumpreme danger: the matador his expected to lean in
over the horns of the bull to stab him in a very specific place. in
that moment he depends on luck. if the bull throws up his head in a
last movement before he dies, the matador receives the horns in his
thigh.
> i don't believe that
> anyone has shown any conclusive links between ancient Cretan
> bull-leaping and Spanish bullfighting as it's done today, but
> there's a bit too much similarity for it to be entirely a
> coincidence...
tourists always bitch, but it is their monmey that finances the most
cruel fights, for instance the August fights in Madrid where no decent
Spaniard would go.
Ace Lightning
>>some while
>>ago, i went to the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, DC.
>>this is a complex of many museums, including two art museums.
>>my companions kept wanting to go into the bigger of the two
>>art museums and look at more paintings. i told them they could
>>find me at the National Air and Space Museum when they were done.
>and not too long ago, a friend's friend and his girl friend were
>touring Spain. when they reached pretty Aranjuez, they said: "what!
>another palace!!" and when I asked them what they thought of Spain,
>they said: "We like the beer here and Barcelona".
if i ever get a chance to visit Spain at all (and i *would*
like to), i'd go to Barcelona first. i think i may have some
distant relatives-by-marriage there. and everything i've read
about Barcelona sounds as if it's an unconventional kind of
place, which suits me.
but i don't like beer. and i'm allergic to wine. however,
rum drinks are fine with me.
Ace Lightning
>>was it representational or abstract? could it have been
>>Picasso's famous "Guernica"?
>the Guernica is not at the Prado (anymore). it is at the Reina Sofia.
>it is not detailed. it is abstract though each abstraction has become
>a symbol almost like a logo each
it was the first Spanish painting i could think of that
was large and full of different images.
>>>Bull fights
>>>aren't fights. They are simply a ritualised slaughter of animals.
>no. the animal is very very dangerous. very. bull fighters do not die
>very frequently anymore, but that is because of the doctors and
>surgeons that know how to prevent infections.
>still, of hundreds who try, few make it. it is not just a question of
>overcoming fear.
i think the idiotic tourists who participate in the "running of
the bulls" without understanding anything about it are fools.
*they* may be doing it to try to overcome fear, but i suspect
that many of them are injured or killed because they first used
alcohol to overcome their fears...
>the problem is that modern spectators are used to things that have
>been rehearsed and brought to technical perfection. of about 200 bull
>fights that I have seen, maybe 3 were perfect and another 10 or so
>worth seeing. when the Real Thing happens, it is as if first the bull,
>then the matador and then the entire audience went into trance.
>for these reasons, bull fights organized for tourists are hoaxes.
that doesn't surprise me at all.
>>i'm not sure if "slaughter" is the correct term for what
>>happens in a bullfight... it appears to be more of a ritual
>>animal sacrifice. there was an elaborate ritual in ancient
>>Crete, where young men and women "danced" with the sacrificial
>>bull, often grabbing its horns and vaulting onto the animal's
>>back.
>it must be of similar origin. as to "arms": the matador does not use
>any until the end. he only uses a red cloth to control the bull's
>focus in his attack.
still, "matador" means "one who kills". killing the bull,
as artistically and skillfully as possible, is his goal,
and that's why he has a sword. the Cretan dancers had no
weapons at all, only their own agility in dodging the
attacks of the animal.
>>they were, however, unarmed; the work of killing the
>>bull was done by other functionaries.
>in the modern bullfight, the moment that the matador decides to kill
>is the moment of sumpreme danger: the matador his expected to lean in
>over the horns of the bull to stab him in a very specific place. in
>that moment he depends on luck. if the bull throws up his head in a
>last movement before he dies, the matador receives the horns in his
>thigh.
so *that's* why they are most commonly gored in the the thigh!
thank you for that information.
>>i don't believe that
>>anyone has shown any conclusive links between ancient Cretan
>>bull-leaping and Spanish bullfighting as it's done today, but
>>there's a bit too much similarity for it to be entirely a
>>coincidence...
>tourists always bitch, but it is their monmey that finances the most
>cruel fights, for instance the August fights in Madrid where no decent
>Spaniard would go.
i would almost rather see a revival of the Cretan style...
Bob Bain
>was it representational or abstract? could it have been
>Picasso's famous "Guernica"?
It wasn't abstract in the sense of Picasso but very detailed with
lots and lots of people involved in a wide variety of activities.
>i'm not sure if "slaughter" is the correct term for what
>happens in a bullfight... it appears to be more of a ritual
>animal sacrifice.
I watched six bulls being slaughtered. Initially they have no idea
what is happening but when they realise what is taking place they
seemingly just lie down digest the information and then quitely die.
They are then towed out of the arena and the performance is repeated.
Onlookers are given scorecards to rate the matador's performance.
I didn't bother with that.
Bob Bain
message id <a76725c6.04060...@posting.google.com>:
>> >Madrid. It comprised lots of detail and it was large. As one looked
>> >into the painting the eye focussed on some particular detail but
>> >within that detail was even more detail.
>was it modern or old? and what was the subject more or less?
>(religious, or landscape, or fantasy or people...)
It wasn't religious or landscape. It was just a painting with lots
of people painted in intricate detail.
>no. the animal is very very dangerous. very. bull fighters do not die
>very frequently anymore, but that is because of the doctors and
>surgeons that know how to prevent infections.
The six bulls I watched being "fought" simply laid down and died.
>in the modern bullfight, the moment that the matador decides to kill
>is the moment of sumpreme danger: the matador his expected to lean in
>over the horns of the bull to stab him in a very specific place.
With the bull lying half concious on the ground I don't believe this
is a great danger to the matador. It's only a danger if he hasn't
placated the bull to a state of insensibility...
Assuming the matador is a he that is, and not knowing if matadors can
be female these days of equal employment opportunity.
I assume the meat ends up in a branch of the Madrid Maccers.
Bob Bain
<ace.li...@verizon.net> wrote in message id
<40C65D10...@verizon.net>:
>if i ever get a chance to visit Spain at all (and i *would*
>like to),
It's where poms ("limeys" in yank talk) go for their hols.
Be prepared - especially during the soccer season (sigh).
Ace Lightning
>>i'm not sure if "slaughter" is the correct term for what
>>happens in a bullfight... it appears to be more of a ritual
>>animal sacrifice.
>I watched six bulls being slaughtered. Initially they have no idea
>what is happening but when they realise what is taking place they
>seemingly just lie down digest the information and then quitely die.
are you saying that they literally lie down and let the
matador insert his sword into the prescribed vital spot,
without protest?
> They are then towed out of the arena and the performance is repeated.
>Onlookers are given scorecards to rate the matador's performance.
>I didn't bother with that.
yes, but did you have a steak for dinner that night?
Ace Lightning
>>if i ever get a chance to visit Spain at all (and i *would*
>>like to),
>It's where poms ("limeys" in yank talk) go for their hols.
> Be prepared - especially during the soccer season (sigh).
then i'll go some other time of year. when's the soccer
season, and when do poms go on hols?
cantueso
> >another palace!!" and when I asked them what they thought of Spain,
> >they said: "We like the beer here and Barcelona".
>
> if i ever get a chance to visit Spain at all (and i *would*
> like to), i'd go to Barcelona first. i think i may have some
> distant relatives-by-marriage there. and everything i've read
> about Barcelona sounds as if it's an unconventional kind of
> place, which suits me.
>
> but i don't like beer. and i'm allergic to wine. however,
> rum drinks are fine with me.
most of Spain is unconventional. Madrid is pretty bad during the day
but for people who live at night there is nothing like it anywhere.
however, I think the only tourists who enjoy it here are the ones that
go to the beaches.
cantueso
> cantueso wrote:
>
> it was the first Spanish painting i could think of that
> was large and full of different images.
Bob did not say it was a Spanish painting. he only said it was full of
detail. I thought of Hieronymus Bosch and Antonio Lopez. one is way
back and painted horror scenes, the most famous one is called El
Jardin de las Delicias. later I will look for accesses. and A. Lopez
is contemporary, but tries to be as photographically exact as
possible. his most famous work is La Gran Via, a great, really great
interpretation of Madrid's downtown atmosphere.
>
>
> i think the idiotic tourists who participate in the "running of
> the bulls" without understanding anything about it are fools.
> *they* may be doing it to try to overcome fear, but i suspect
> that many of them are injured or killed because they first used
> alcohol to overcome their fears...
maybe, but more probably because they think that these bulls are
somehow similar to cows and oxen elsewhere. they are not. I do not
know anything about the terminology, but zoologists would explain that
they are a different "species" or "race"
some time ago, I saw an analogy: a bull fight without the Moment of
Truth is like eroticism without sex; that is a good analogy and right
to the point.
playing in front of the bull is still done in all the little villages.
since the same bull can be used for a long time, it is a cheap game.
since you do not have to get near the horns, it is not a dangerous
game.
and in fact, being cheap and non-committal, it is idiotic in its
cruelty and aimlessness.
touché! chapeau! (this for the analogy. )
cantueso
with reference to a former message: most famous after Picasso's
Guernica and Dali's Cross, the Gran Via by Antonio Lopez
http://www.artelibre.net/ARTELIBRE1/ANTONIO_LOPEZ/lopez1.jpg
notice the pomp and ugliness of the downtown architecture
they love pomp
they love it
the bull fight can also be seen as pomp and bluff in the face of death
cantueso
with reference to a former message.
detailed, figurative but nowhere near "realistic":
El Jardin de las Delicias by el Bosco. this is at the Prado
(don't fail to see the fragment called El Angel Caído, The Fallen Angel)
http://images.google.es/imgres?imgurl=www.elangelcaido.org/creacion/020/bosco2.jpg
cantueso
> Ace Lightning <ace.li...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<40C65EA4...@verizon.net>...
>
>
> with reference to a former message.
> detailed, figurative but nowhere near "realistic":
>
> El Jardin de las Delicias by el Bosco. this is at the Prado
>
> (don't fail to see the fragment called El Angel Caído, The Fallen Angel)
I have just seen that my access does not work. here is another one
http://images.google.es/images?q=el+bosco+jardin&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search
>
John Baker
>>Bull fights
>>
>>>aren't fights. They are simply a ritualised slaughter of animals.
>
>
> no. the animal is very very dangerous. very. bull fighters do not die
> very frequently anymore, but that is because of the doctors and
> surgeons that know how to prevent infections.
This makes me recall one of my favorite passages from the Boomer Bible
by Laird.
To wit:
The bullfight is not a sport exactly, because it is not a fight exactly,
But an execution, which has always been a favorite pastime of Spics.
The way it works is, the bull thinks he has a chance to get the
bullfighter, called the Matador - which he does. But since getting the
matador won't save him anyway, the bull is regarded as a tragic figure,
a lot like a Spanish nobleman, who is also very brave, very violent,
very stupid, and very likely to die without learning anything new. And
so the tragic bull tries to get the Matador and gets stuck with a bunch
of pointed sticks instead, and is made to look very foolish with a lot
of veronicas and such, Before he gets transfixed by a sword at the end
of the fight and dies bleeding in the hot sand. This beautiful event
captures all the mystique of Spain and has helped the world immeasurably
in appreciating the Spics for the brave, violent, stupid animals they are.
Bob Bain
message id <a76725c6.04060...@posting.google.com>:
>El Jardin de las Delicias by el Bosco. this is at the Prado
>(don't fail to see the fragment called El Angel Caído, The Fallen Angel)
>http://images.google.es/imgres?imgurl=www.elangelcaido.org/creacion/020/bosco2.jpg
that link doesn't work directly. Google refuses to take me to Spain
unless I force it to... (sigh)
The following is similar in style to the painting I've referred to,
but nowhere (nowhere!) near as detailed..
http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/jack/bosco/s-delici.jpg
.. however I can to to:-
http://www.elangelcaido.org/creacion/020/bosco2.jpg
which bears no resemblance whatsoever to the painting I was alluding
to...
Bob Bain
>are you saying that they literally lie down and let the
>matador insert his sword into the prescribed vital spot,
>without protest?
I watched six "bullfights" and the way you describe it pretty much
sums up the situation. The animals were too weak (and practically
dead) at the moment the sword was inserted.
The other thing was that this was a 1pm peformance and the arena was
pretty empty with just a handful of tourists. Whether Spaniards treat
their bullfights as a sport (as Aussies treat Rugby League and
Australian Rules) is something I'm not sure about.
As you may know I spent a week in Mexico some (many) years ago
(sigh). I don't know if they peform bullfights in Mexico.
There were two common themes arising from my Mexian hostess (who used
to live in Australia, but who was never an immigrant - she worked for
the Mexican Embassy and couldn't wait to leave... )
Mexico is not Spain, and things Spanish aren't necessarily part of
Mexican culture. (Much like the United Kingdom and the United States
I would imagine).
The Mexican/US border is misplaced due to "theft" by greedy English
speaking Europeans and much of the Southern United States is in fact
considered by many (in Mexico) to be part of Mexico which is why so
many Mexicans find their way into the Southern parts of the United
States. They regard it as theirs...
>> They are then towed out of the arena and the performance is repeated.
>>Onlookers are given scorecards to rate the matador's performance.
>>I didn't bother with that.
>yes, but did you have a steak for dinner that night?
Probably not. It was part of an Aussie run camping trip which
encompassed a lot of North Africa (Tunisia, Morroco and Algeria),
which I believe I still have photographs from.
That means that whatever I ate was prepared by competent Aussie
female tourists doing "Europe" and associated territories...
Spain was a "byproduct" along the way, and considered (at that stage
of the tour) to be "normal" compared to say parts of the Sahara desert
and foul tasting beer (served by Aussie "expats") served on the edges
of the Sahara desert..
I do NOT recommend beer from that part of the world.
Ace Lightning
>>if i ever get a chance to visit Spain at all (and i *would*
>>like to), i'd go to Barcelona first. i think i may have some
>>distant relatives-by-marriage there. and everything i've read
>>about Barcelona sounds as if it's an unconventional kind of
>>place, which suits me.
>but for people who live at night there is nothing like it anywhere.
i am a person who lives at night...
>however, I think the only tourists who enjoy it here are the ones that
>go to the beaches.
i don't go to beaches. i have very pale skin, and i get
severely sunburned.
Ace Lightning
>>i think the idiotic tourists who participate in the "running of
>>the bulls" without understanding anything about it are fools.
>>*they* may be doing it to try to overcome fear, but i suspect
>>that many of them are injured or killed because they first used
>>alcohol to overcome their fears...
>maybe, but more probably because they think that these bulls are
>somehow similar to cows and oxen elsewhere. they are not. I do not
>know anything about the terminology, but zoologists would explain that
>they are a different "species" or "race"
at the very least, they are bred and raised to be
aggressive, in a way that ordinary cows aren't.
>playing in front of the bull is still done in all the little villages.
>since the same bull can be used for a long time, it is a cheap game.
>since you do not have to get near the horns, it is not a dangerous
>game.
> and in fact, being cheap and non-committal, it is idiotic in its
>cruelty and aimlessness.
i have never understood how people can tease an animal,
or even a younger or mentally impaired person, and
enjoy how cruel they are being. all living things have
feelings, and it's just wrong to torment them simply
because they're weaker.
Ace Lightning
>with reference to a former message: most famous after Picasso's
>Guernica and Dali's Cross, the Gran Via by Antonio Lopez
>http://www.artelibre.net/ARTELIBRE1/ANTONIO_LOPEZ/lopez1.jpg
>notice the pomp and ugliness of the downtown architecture
>they love pomp
>they love it
>the bull fight can also be seen as pomp and bluff in the face of death
what i see is a street full of very ornate old-fashioned
buildings, with very modern markings on the pavement. the
picture is taken from an angle that distorts everything.
it looks like a picture from a travel magazine.
Ace Lightning
>with reference to a former message.
>detailed, figurative but nowhere near "realistic":
>El Jardin de las Delicias by el Bosco. this is at the Prado
>(don't fail to see the fragment called El Angel Caído, The Fallen Angel)
>http://images.google.es/imgres?imgurl=www.elangelcaido.org/creacion/020/bosco2.jpg
i am, of course, quite familiar with the famous art of
Hieronymous Bosch...
Ace Lightning
>>are you saying that they literally lie down and let the
>>matador insert his sword into the prescribed vital spot,
>>without protest?
> I watched six "bullfights" and the way you describe it pretty much
>sums up the situation. The animals were too weak (and practically
>dead) at the moment the sword was inserted.
was that from the various activities inflicted on the animal
before the matador took over?
> The other thing was that this was a 1pm peformance and the arena was
>pretty empty with just a handful of tourists. Whether Spaniards treat
>their bullfights as a sport (as Aussies treat Rugby League and
>Australian Rules) is something I'm not sure about.
>As you may know I spent a week in Mexico some (many) years ago
>(sigh). I don't know if they peform bullfights in Mexico.
they used to - it may have been outlawed in the past fifty
years ago or so.
> There were two common themes arising from my Mexian hostess (who used
>to live in Australia, but who was never an immigrant - she worked for
>the Mexican Embassy and couldn't wait to leave... )
> Mexico is not Spain, and things Spanish aren't necessarily part of
>Mexican culture. (Much like the United Kingdom and the United States
>I would imagine).
the geopolitically American island of Puerto Rico is very
intense about its Spanish heritage, and its connections
with Spain - my son bought a pair of Spanish boots in Puerto
Rico.
>The Mexican/US border is misplaced due to "theft" by greedy English
>speaking Europeans and much of the Southern United States is in fact
>considered by many (in Mexico) to be part of Mexico which is why so
>many Mexicans find their way into the Southern parts of the United
>States. They regard it as theirs...
at the very least, i would expect them to resent the loss
of Texas...
>>> They are then towed out of the arena and the performance is repeated.
>>>Onlookers are given scorecards to rate the matador's performance.
>>>I didn't bother with that.
>>yes, but did you have a steak for dinner that night?
> Probably not. It was part of an Aussie run camping trip which
>encompassed a lot of North Africa (Tunisia, Morroco and Algeria),
>which I believe I still have photographs from.
> That means that whatever I ate was prepared by competent Aussie
>female tourists doing "Europe" and associated territories...
> Spain was a "byproduct" along the way, and considered (at that stage
>of the tour) to be "normal" compared to say parts of the Sahara desert
>and foul tasting beer (served by Aussie "expats") served on the edges
>of the Sahara desert..
> I do NOT recommend beer from that part of the world.
fortunately, i don't drink beer.
Bob Bain
>> I watched six "bullfights" and the way you describe it pretty much
>>sums up the situation. The animals were too weak (and practically
>>dead) at the moment the sword was inserted.
>was that from the various activities inflicted on the animal
>before the matador took over?
Mostly people in coloured uniforms throwing barbs into the flesh of
the animal. Yes.
Ace Lightning
>>> I watched six "bullfights" and the way you describe it pretty much
>>>sums up the situation. The animals were too weak (and practically
>>>dead) at the moment the sword was inserted.
>>was that from the various activities inflicted on the animal
>>before the matador took over?
> Mostly people in coloured uniforms throwing barbs into the flesh of
>the animal. Yes.
i think that's supposed to be the point...
Bob Bain
>>>was that from the various activities inflicted on the animal
>>>before the matador took over?
>> Mostly people in coloured uniforms throwing barbs into the flesh of
>>the animal. Yes.
>i think that's supposed to be the point...
The imagery has remained with me for years, and at times when I feel
that either people or things are "against me" I recall the imagery of
the bull's realisation that whatever he (the bull) did was to no avail
and that he (the bull) was as good as done for.
In Mexico they have a day of the dead.
I believe the bullfight is a way of looking death in the face -
something that is taboo in most countries.
It seems futile in some ways to complain about the ritual when
"worse" things happen in abattoirs on a daily basis.
There was an ABC (Australian Broadcasting Coroporation) documentary
showing what happens in abattoirs many years ago.
The bullfight is (IMO) the "kinder" of the two.
recalling that Pythagoras venerated beans and allegedly died in a
bean field as he didn't wish to trample on them when faced with an
army opposed to his particular form of "magik".
Source: "The Book of Pythagoras" (still in the Adyar library
(Theosophical Society of Australia) I believe).
(the commercial bookshop)
Bob Bain
in message id <3i8gc0dqu5jh0812f...@4ax.com>:
> recalling that Pythagoras venerated beans and allegedly died in a
>bean field as he didn't wish to trample on them when faced with an
>army opposed to his particular form of "magik".
> Source: "The Book of Pythagoras" (still in the Adyar library
>(Theosophical Society of Australia) I believe).
A legend found on the Internet as well....
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/shades/plants/beans.htm
"There is a legend concerning the philosopher/mathematician Pythagoras
and a bean field. He believed that some souls, when leaving their
bodies, became beans, so he refused to eat them. When there were
enemies pursuing him, believing that he was a magician who needed to
be put to death, he ran until he came to a bean field. Since he
thought that the vines had souls hanging upon them which he did not
want to trample, he instead stood still and allowed himself to be
killed."
The Pythagoreans were reviled in some quarters and from what I read
Pythagoras was a semi-mystical figure with almost religious
significance and there are perceived (in my mind) comparisons that can
be drawn between Pythagoras and Jesus Christ.
... except that Pythagoras died to save the souls of beans instead of
men :-)
And they don't do bullfights in India !
... and I'll sample a little sherry and retire for the evening.
cantueso
> On 8 Jun 2004 06:48:24 -0700, cant...@dieznet.com (cantueso) wrote in
> message id <a76725c6.04060...@posting.google.com>:
>
> >> >Madrid. It comprised lots of detail and it was large. As one looked
> >> >into the painting the eye focussed on some particular detail but
> >> >within that detail was even more detail.
it could have been one of these. at any rate, I am sure you will like
them:
http://images.google.es/images?sourceid=navclient&hl=es&q=bruegel
>
> The six bulls I watched being "fought" simply laid down and died.
in the past, (not distant past) the fighting bulls were kept on farms
that were so immense that the animals would not get into contact with
people.
now the bulls are kept on large farms but herded, almost like domestic
animals. so they have become weaker. there may be some cheating, too:
hormones, cheap food, miscalculated breeding techniques; but more
probably you would have seen bulls from a farm that is new in the
business or that produces bulls for low grade fights. the bulls of
the famous breeders are very expensive. (the real insiders know a
great bull's name and remember him by his name later)
>
> >in the modern bullfight, the moment that the matador decides to kill
> >is the moment of sumpreme danger: the matador his expected to lean in
> >over the horns of the bull to stab him in a very specific place.
>
> With the bull lying half concious on the ground I don't believe this
> is a great danger to the matador.
no. what you saw was not a fight. the matador plays with the bull to
tire him out and to make him lower his head so that he can be killed.
what you saw was an organizational flop or simply a hoax
> It's only a danger if he hasn't placated the bull to a state of
insensibility...
>
> Assuming the matador is a he that is, and not knowing if matadors can
> be female these days of equal employment opportunity.
there are women fighters. it is disagreeable to see. however, the
great bull fighters are not super machos. some great ones were not
even physically fit. what they may have in common (along with artisans
of hard work trades) is a certain simple, very lucid integrity. their
work is hard, it is often more than 40ºC when they fight in full
uniform; the spectators are fickle; there is corruption and cheating
in the complex organization of these fights.... and do not underrate
their familiarity with death. I suppose that you can't avoid
underrating it. it's genetic, I guess.
>
> I assume the meat ends up in a branch of the Madrid Maccers.
no. there are special markets for it. a bull weighs 500 kilos. in May
there are corridas every day for some 20 or even 30 days in Madrid, 6
bulls per fight. pocket claculator: total amount of meat?
cantueso
oooooooooooops!!! sorry
"it is genetic" refers to the tendency of Americans to underrrate
every goddamned thing that they do not know.
(given the way things are, I thought you might think that the genetic
feature was the familiarity with death.)
cantueso
> cantueso wrote:
> >>Bull fights
> >>
> >>>aren't fights. They are simply a ritualised slaughter of animals.
> >
> >
> > no. the animal is very very dangerous. very. bull fighters do not die
> > very frequently anymore, but that is because of the doctors and
> > surgeons that know how to prevent infections.
>
> This makes me recall one of my favorite passages from the Boomer Bible
> by Laird.
>
> To wit:
> The bullfight is not a sport exactly,
it is not a sport at all. if it is not too much to ask of you, try
starting your definition with "ritual"
because it is not a fight exactl
> But an execution, which has always been a favorite pastime of Spics.
oh, I see. and you copied this from somewhere, didn´t you? otherwise
you all right, eh?
Belanger
wrote:
>(...)
>and foul tasting beer (served by Aussie "expats") served on the edges
>of the Sahara desert..
>
> I do NOT recommend beer from that part of the world.
Bah! You think Tunisian beer is bad? You should try the _American_
stuff!
--
BELANGER
2% alcohol? What the hell?
Ace Lightning
> The imagery has remained with me for years, and at times when I feel
>that either people or things are "against me" I recall the imagery of
>the bull's realisation that whatever he (the bull) did was to no avail
>and that he (the bull) was as good as done for.
talk about "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune..."
>In Mexico they have a day of the dead.
it's a wonderful conflation of ancient Aztec beliefs about
death and the dead with Catholic beliefs about souls and the
afterlife. this year, for Samhain, i've *got* to go to the
Mexican market (there's a large Mexican population in one
of the nearby towns) and get some of those sugar-candy skulls!
> I believe the bullfight is a way of looking death in the face -
>something that is taboo in most countries.
> It seems futile in some ways to complain about the ritual when
>"worse" things happen in abattoirs on a daily basis.
> There was an ABC (Australian Broadcasting Coroporation) documentary
>showing what happens in abattoirs many years ago.
>The bullfight is (IMO) the "kinder" of the two.
probably. and so is slitting an animal's throat, or beheading
it, as are done in other ritual sacrifices (such as santería).
but for some reason, the public gets all outraged about "cruelty
to animals" whenever animal sacrifice is mentioned. (incidentally,
the meat of the critter gets cooked and served to the worshippers,
as a feast in honor of the deity the animal was sacrificed to.)
Ace Lightning
>there are women fighters. it is disagreeable to see. however, the
>great bull fighters are not super machos. some great ones were not
>even physically fit. what they may have in common (along with artisans
>of hard work trades) is a certain simple, very lucid integrity. their
>work is hard, it is often more than 40ºC when they fight in full
>uniform; the spectators are fickle; there is corruption and cheating
>in the complex organization of these fights.... and do not underrate
>their familiarity with death. I suppose that you can't avoid
>underrating it. it's genetic, I guess.
why is it "disagreeable to see" women bullfighters? i
understand that some of them are quite skilled.
man or woman, i do admire anyone who can run and scamper
about in the full "traje de luces" (which is a very beautiful
costume, although not terribly practical for the purpose).
Scott Dorsey
All you need is a chart showing sales of Watney's Red Barrel by date
to figure this out. The actual measure is left as an exercise to the
student. Extra credit for any correlation between WRB sales and
Man U tees.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Scott Dorsey
>
>Bah! You think Tunisian beer is bad? You should try the _American_
>stuff!
It's got a lot better in the past decade. In 1990, I was flying back to
the US with an engineer from AKG Acoustics, who was carrying two cases of
beer in the luggage compartment, because "you cannot get good beer in America."
Thankfully, the days in which the typical choice of Bud and Bud Light was
common are gone, and there are actually some drinkable American beers now.
It is sad to say that we are continuing to show the effects of prohibition
nearly three-quarters of a century after repeal.
Bob Bain
<ready_TAK...@hotmail.com> wrote in message id
<1h7hc0dh3h67d4bi8...@4ax.com>:
>Bah! You think Tunisian beer is bad? You should try the _American_
>stuff!
I have. What are called "bars" in the United States are nothing like
Australian pubs however and I doubt if you can get the equivalent of a
Schooner.
They sell both "Australian" (brewed in the UK) and American beer in
London. Some poms seem to have been attracted to "XXXX" ( nominally a
Queensland, Australia brew ) and "Fosters" which isn't drunk much
here.
I believe the "bud" stuff is just for visiting Americans though.
Someone mentioned Watney's Red Barrel in an earlier posting. I used
to drink that. I even drank it in Italy.
.. noting also that it is customary in the United Kingdom to drink
warm beer.
Bob Bain
>> The imagery has remained with me for years, and at times when I feel
>>that either people or things are "against me" I recall the imagery of
>>the bull's realisation that whatever he (the bull) did was to no avail
>>and that he (the bull) was as good as done for.
>talk about "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune..."
Yes. I've had a fair bit of that. Memories of the words
"Mate. You are fighting for you life. Do you understand me ? Your
life !"
....come to mind.
>it's a wonderful conflation of ancient Aztec beliefs about
>death and the dead with Catholic beliefs about souls and the
>afterlife. this year,
There's a collection of Aztek art in the museum in Mexico City.
I believe the Azteks built the pyramids (the Sun and the Moon) which
tourists get to see in that city (it's just outside the polluted zone
- which is most of Mexico City).
There's another "native indigenous people" who are seemingly held in
greater respect than the Azteks.
> for Samhain, i've *got* to go to the Mexican market (there's a large Mexican population in one
>of the nearby towns) and get some of those sugar-candy skulls!
The place for skulls is "the catacombs" somewhere near Rome.
There are thousands of them. You can't eat them though. They are
the genuine remains of those who ended up in those burial places.
>but for some reason, the public gets all outraged about "cruelty
>to animals" whenever animal sacrifice is mentioned. (incidentally,
>the meat of the critter gets cooked and served to the worshippers,
>as a feast in honor of the deity the animal was sacrificed to.)
Much depends on the animal.
All pigs are equal but some pigs are more equal than others.
Bob Bain
in message id <a76725c6.04061...@posting.google.com>:
>now the bulls are kept on large farms but herded, almost like domestic
>animals. so they have become weaker. there may be some cheating, too:
>hormones, cheap food, miscalculated breeding techniques;
Cheating is pretty well accepted in most forms of life from cricket
to the Olympics. If there is money involved in bullfighting I would
anticipate this would be the case.
>no. what you saw was not a fight. the matador plays with the bull to
>tire him out and to make him lower his head so that he can be killed.
>what you saw was an organizational flop or simply a hoax
It was an afternoon performance for tourists. There was hardly
anyone there.
>there are women fighters. it is disagreeable to see. however, the
>great bull fighters are not super machos.
I'm sure bullfighting has much in common with ballet dancing. They
suggest similar things about Australian Rules Football.
>in the complex organization of these fights.... and do not underrate
>their familiarity with death. I suppose that you can't avoid
>underrating it. it's genetic, I guess.
Nobody has cheated death yet.
>no. there are special markets for it. a bull weighs 500 kilos. in May
>there are corridas every day for some 20 or even 30 days in Madrid, 6
>bulls per fight. pocket claculator: total amount of meat?
Is it edible ?
And does the bull ever win ?
Ace Lightning
>>it's a wonderful conflation of ancient Aztec beliefs about
>>death and the dead with Catholic beliefs about souls and the
>>afterlife. this year,
> There's a collection of Aztek art in the museum in Mexico City.
> I believe the Azteks built the pyramids (the Sun and the Moon) which
>tourists get to see in that city (it's just outside the polluted zone
>- which is most of Mexico City).
there are Aztec ruins all across Mexico. they had a
very complex religion involving celestial bodies,
especially the Sun - their ruler was called Son of
the Sun. they mined gold, which was relatively
plentiful, and worked it into astonishingly beautiful
objects; they called gold "the tears of the Sun".
their social system was also complex, and rather rigid.
they occasionally practiced human sacrifice, but many
of the victims were volunteers - they were usually
treated to one year of extravagantly privileged life
before being given to the Gods. many of their arts
and technologies were quite advanced. and they had
absolutely no clue who the Spanish conquistadores
were, or what they were about.
> There's another "native indigenous people" who are seemingly held in
>greater respect than the Azteks.
could that be the Mixtecs?
>>for Samhain, i've *got* to go to the Mexican market (there's
>>a large Mexican population in one of the nearby towns) and
>>get some of those sugar-candy skulls!
>The place for skulls is "the catacombs" somewhere near Rome.
>There are thousands of them. You can't eat them though. They are
>the genuine remains of those who ended up in those burial places.
part of Mexico's "Dia de los Muertes" is cheerfully ghoulish
imagery, and this is often expressed in food, since there is
a custom of making a feast for the honored dead. candies and
pastries are made in the shape of skulls and skeletons, often
in whimsical style - i recall a photo of a mariachi band of
sugar-candy skeletons, all with candy instruments and even
colorful hats! but the sugar skulls are probably the most
popular treat. and, although they have very little connection
with the Celtic festival of Samhain (Halloween, All Souls'
Night), they are very appropriate for that occasion as well.
cantueso
> cantueso wrote:
>
> i am a person who lives at night...
somebody told me in Italy it was similar. I don't know. however, I can
tell you that, especially in summer, there is nothing like it.
since it is very often hot during the day and since most places work
only in the morning during the hottest time, people go home to sleep
and then come out en masse after sun down. by midnight absolutely
everybody is out there and by they are all in a festive mood which
gets more and more festive.
some people will tell you they sleep till midnight or so and then get
up, get ready and go.
you will see photos taken at night with cars filling downdown Madrid
bumper to bumper. parents take along their children. EVERYBODY is
out! it is really nice. if you look on the net, you will certainly
find confirmation.
judging from what older people tell me, it has always been like that.
Vince Barmann
See, I would think they'd be constantly tripping over the
extension cord.
Vince B.
Ace Lightning
many years ago, when i studied Spanish in school, they
taught us about the siesta. it sounds like a very sensible
way to live - and not only in places where it gets too hot
to do anything in the middle of the day. i have always been
a "second shift" (or even "third shift") person, preferring
to start work at 4 PM and work till midnight, or else start
at midnight and work till 8 AM. (all times are very approximate.)
but it's just barbaric to expect me to wake up at dawn and be
capable of coherent thought and/or useful work; my brain
doesn't even come up to full power until sometime after noon.
if it weren't for my allergies to garlic, seafood, and wine,
i'd probably be very happy in Spain.
Bob Bain
>> There's another "native indigenous people" who are seemingly held in
>>greater respect than the Azteks.
>could that be the Mixtecs?
No. The reference is to the "Incas" who may or may not have
inhabited Mexico and was made by someone in Mexico (an American who
teaches there) and who seemingly was "fed up with all this Aztek
stuff").
I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment.
I would like to mention however that in Secondary School in the
"Religious Instruction" class (compulsory in the United Kingdom) the
teacher refused point blank to discuss "that Christian twaddle" and
used his compulsory half hour lessons to discuss ritual sacrifice in
South America including blood curling detail on how hearts were
removed from the bodies of the chosen and eaten....
Ace Lightning
>>>There's another "native indigenous people" who are seemingly held in
>>>greater respect than the Azteks.
>>could that be the Mixtecs?
> No. The reference is to the "Incas" who may or may not have
>inhabited Mexico and was made by someone in Mexico (an American who
>teaches there) and who seemingly was "fed up with all this Aztek
>stuff").
the Incas were in Peru, in South America - *quite* a distance
away from the Aztecs, although their cultures did have many
features in common.
> I would like to mention however that in Secondary School in the
>"Religious Instruction" class (compulsory in the United Kingdom) the
>teacher refused point blank to discuss "that Christian twaddle" and
>used his compulsory half hour lessons to discuss ritual sacrifice in
>South America including blood curling detail on how hearts were
>removed from the bodies of the chosen and eaten....
while i admire the teacher's actions (i would assume that,
by the time you reached secondary school, everyone had at
least a nodding acquaintance with Christianity), i believe
he was wrong about the bleeding, still-beating hearts being
*eaten*... i think they were thrown onto sacrificial fires.
Kent Paul Dolan
> i believe
> he was wrong about the bleeding, still-beating hearts being
> *eaten*... i think they were thrown onto sacrificial fires.
Well, up until the invention of the blender, that's what we
did with them; cooking them first made them a lot easier to
chew. Now, with better technology, we just puree them, and the
gods are _so_ much happier with the fare their representatives
are swilling down raw on their behalf.
Just FYI, raw, moments-ago-beating, pureed human heart tastes
_nothing_ like chicken.
xanthian.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Ace Lightning
>>i believe
>>he was wrong about the bleeding, still-beating hearts being
>>*eaten*... i think they were thrown onto sacrificial fires.
>Well, up until the invention of the blender, that's what we
>did with them; cooking them first made them a lot easier to
>chew. Now, with better technology, we just puree them, and the
>gods are _so_ much happier with the fare their representatives
>are swilling down raw on their behalf.
>Just FYI, raw, moments-ago-beating, pureed human heart tastes
>_nothing_ like chicken.
are you speaking from direct personal experience here?
Bob Bain
>the Incas were in Peru, in South America - *quite* a distance
>away from the Aztecs, although their cultures did have many
>features in common.
There's an informative Hispanic-American Indian page at:-
http://religion-cults.com/Ancient/America/Hispano-American%20.htm
-----------------------------------------------
Piramid like temples to the Aztec gods stood in the heart of
Tenochtitlan, and each year about 20,000 of human beings were
sacrificed to Aztec gods, specially to Huizilopochtli, the god of the
sun and war; their heart was torn out and offered to the god.
The Aztecs, believed that, as a people, they had a divine mission to
prevent the fifth destruction of the Earth. They believed the 4
previous destructions were caused by the death of the sun, and the way
to prevent his new death was by sustaining the sun with human hearts
and blood.
Aztec religion heavily emphasized sacrifice and ascetic behavior as
the necessary preconditions for approaching the supernatural. Priest
were celibate, and were required to live simple, Spartan live. They
performed constant self-sacrifice in the form of bloodletting as
penitence, by passing barbed cords through the tongue and ears.
--------------------------------------------------
I know I purchased an Aztek calendar at Mexico City Airport (not as
colourful as the one in the picture) but *may* have either discarded
it (on account of omens of bad luck) or it *may* still be holding up
my "First to walk the Olympic Stadium" certificate on my dust covered
mantlepiece. I have a hunch I wouldn't have thrown it away. I recall
I did that with a Shamrock "good luck" charm purchased at Limerick
airport.
>while i admire the teacher's actions (i would assume that,
>by the time you reached secondary school, everyone had at
>least a nodding acquaintance with Christianity),
When it was first taught to me I hadn't the notion of what they were
talking about and believed Jesus Christ lived and preached near the
English seaside resort of Bognor Regis.
> i believe he was wrong about the bleeding, still-beating hearts being
>*eaten*... i think they were thrown onto sacrificial fires.
ok... he probably exaggerated but he shouldn't have been preaching
this stuff in a religious class anyway (I'm sure if school inspectors
had heard him they would have suffered heart attacks).
I still have the video tape from my visit to Mexico City. It was
seized by "the fuzz" in March 1994 but was eventually returned. It
still has their paw marks and a police catalogue number.
I believe they were going to pass it on to Interpol who I'm sure
would have been mighty interested in my photographs of the Mexican
City pyramids. You may not believe that, but truth (sadly) is often
stranger than fiction and no-one would believe it anway.... (sigh).
Ace Lightning
> There's an informative Hispanic-American Indian page at:-
>http://religion-cults.com/Ancient/America/Hispano-American%20.htm
i humbly point out that this website is visibly operated by
Christian fundamentalists who state, right on that page, that
anything that isn't in the Bible is devil worship. therefore,
i tend to distrust their "scholarship" regarding the cultures
they describe.
>> i believe he was wrong about the bleeding, still-beating hearts being
>>*eaten*... i think they were thrown onto sacrificial fires.
> ok... he probably exaggerated but he shouldn't have been preaching
>this stuff in a religious class anyway (I'm sure if school inspectors
>had heard him they would have suffered heart attacks).
why not? he was teaching about *a* religion. my son went
to Christian Brothers Academy for high school, even though
nobody in the family is even remotely Catholic (it's a long
story). he had to take a "religion" course every year - but,
even though the school is run by monks, the classes were
surprisingly fair-minded. the year they did "comparative
religions", he did his term paper on Wicca, because the house
is full of books about it, so he had all his research material
right at hand. he got an A- on the paper, and the "minus" was
largely for sloppy spelling.
he also got "religion" credit for doing volunteer work at a
local hospital; it was considered "community service".
cantueso
I do not understand why this post is addressed to me.
Belanger
>"Kent Paul Dolan" <xant...@well.com> wrote:
>> Just FYI, raw, moments-ago-beating, pureed human heart tastes
>> _nothing_ like chicken.
>
>I do not understand why this post is addressed to me.
Oh, you'll know when Kent shows up on your stoop with a blender and
two rolls of duct tape.
--
BELANGER
I'm not sure what the tape's for, but it _is_ the second-most useful
object in the world.
cantueso
> cantueso wrote:
> >there are women fighters. it is disagreeable to see. however, the
> >great bull fighters are not super machos. some great ones were not
> >even physically fit. what they may have in common (along with artisans
> >of hard work trades) is a certain simple, very lucid integrity. their
> >work is hard, it is often more than 40ºC when they fight in full
> >uniform; the spectators are fickle; there is corruption and cheating
> >in the complex organization of these fights.... and do not underrate
> >their familiarity with death. I suppose that you can't avoid
> >underrating it. it's genetic, I guess.
>
> why is it "disagreeable to see" women bullfighters? i
> understand that some of them are quite skilled.
it is not a question of skill. it is basically a ritual. ideally, the
matador, in the center of the arena, does not move. he lets the bull
move. ideally he "wraps" the bull around himself so closely that the
bull's blood wipes off on the matador's belly.
>
> man or woman, i do admire anyone who can run and scamper
> about in the full "traje de luces" (which is a very beautiful
> costume, although not terribly practical for the purpose).
the matador must never be seen running. his movements should all be
pre-meditated. this is theory. in fact, because of bad luck or a bad
head or a bad stomach, the mood the matador is in will influence his
performance. however, by law he is obliged to kill the bull. if he
can't, the police will arrest him (I heard of a case like that only
once. the matador refused to kill, simply said he could not, and he
was led off by the police)
cantueso
> On 10 Jun 2004 04:29:19 -0700, cant...@dieznet.com (cantueso) wrote
> in message id <a76725c6.04061...@posting.google.com>:
>
> >now the bulls are kept on large farms but herded, almost like domestic
> >animals. so they have become weaker. there may be some cheating, too:
> >hormones, cheap food, miscalculated breeding techniques;
>
> Cheating is pretty well accepted in most forms of life from cricket
> to the Olympics. If there is money involved in bullfighting I would
> anticipate this would be the case.
there is money, but even more there is fame.
honesty is a strange virtue, you know. I wonder. I think it has to do
with Protestant ethics, Bible ethics. I somehow believe that in
Catholic cultures it is maybe considered something of a luxury, an
upper-middle class prerogative ...
I have seen people lie and lie here and people objected a little, but
always with a wink. a wink!!! you should see how I react to that. it's
quite irrational. but they accept it as part of the game. I cannot
deal with it. I have also been told that the lie is part of the Arab
inheritance here.
>
> >no. what you saw was not a fight. the matador plays with the bull to
> >tire him out and to make him lower his head so that he can be killed.
> >what you saw was an organizational flop or simply a hoax
>
> It was an afternoon performance for tourists. There was hardly
> anyone there.
>
> >there are women fighters. it is disagreeable to see. however, the
> >great bull fighters are not super machos.
>
> I'm sure bullfighting has much in common with ballet dancing. They
> suggest similar things about Australian Rules Football.
no, no. no. remember the danger. Hemingway spoke of "grace under
pressure". that is it: he has to stand still with the wild animal
raging all around him.
>
> >in the complex organization of these fights.... and do not underrate
> >their familiarity with death. I suppose that you can't avoid
> >underrating it. it's genetic, I guess.
>
> Nobody has cheated death yet.
>
> >no. there are special markets for it. a bull weighs 500 kilos. in May
> >there are corridas every day for some 20 or even 30 days in Madrid, 6
> >bulls per fight. pocket claculator: total amount of meat?
>
> Is it edible ?
of course. I do not know whether I have ever had any. they say that
the meat is tough both because of the strain the animal suffered in
its death and because of the way it lived in freedom before, running
and fighting other bulls.
>
> And does the bull ever win ?
yes, he does, if by "winning" you mean leave the ring alive and while
getting a standing ovation.
I have stood up to applaud a matador a few times, maybe three.
but when I got up, once, to applaud a bull, it was one of the great
moments of my life.
it does not happen often, but when a bull's performance and bravery
is way above normal, the spectators hold up a hanky to ask the man who
presides the fight to pardon the bull's life.
once you have seen a few fights you can tell a cowardly bull from a
brave one, and even a calculating mean bull from a "noble" one: and
"noble" means one that does not calculate his risks....
but I know that the whole thing has to disappear because by now it is
financed by tourists and so has lost all justification.
cantueso
:-D
but you would know that "lucir" means to parade
it is used in everyday journalese as "wearing" (on a more or less
festive or official occasion).
cantueso
you say the same as Churchill. his idea was that the siesta allowed
him to do a double shift when he directed the navy in the first world
war and presided the British government in WW2 (where he was already
up in years and even seems to have had a heart attack when he went to
the US towards the end of the war).
>
> if it weren't for my allergies to garlic, seafood, and wine,
> i'd probably be very happy in Spain.
I am very happy here, and yet I cannot drink alcohol, do not know how
to eat sea food and try to avoid garlic because of its smell.
Ace Lightning
>>why is it "disagreeable to see" women bullfighters? i
>>understand that some of them are quite skilled.
>it is not a question of skill. it is basically a ritual. ideally, the
>matador, in the center of the arena, does not move. he lets the bull
>move. ideally he "wraps" the bull around himself so closely that the
>bull's blood wipes off on the matador's belly.
i don't understand what that has to do with the matador
being male or female.
>>man or woman, i do admire anyone who can run and scamper
>>about in the full "traje de luces" (which is a very beautiful
>>costume, although not terribly practical for the purpose).
>the matador must never be seen running. his movements should all be
>pre-meditated. this is theory. in fact, because of bad luck or a bad
>head or a bad stomach, the mood the matador is in will influence his
>performance. however, by law he is obliged to kill the bull. if he
>can't, the police will arrest him (I heard of a case like that only
>once. the matador refused to kill, simply said he could not, and he
>was led off by the police)
according to another post of yours, the exception is
when the bull performs bravely, and the audience "votes"
to spare its life.
Ace Lightning
>>many years ago, when i studied Spanish in school, they
>>taught us about the siesta. it sounds like a very sensible
>>way to live - and not only in places where it gets too hot
>>to do anything in the middle of the day. i have always been
>>a "second shift" (or even "third shift") person, preferring
>>to start work at 4 PM and work till midnight, or else start
>>at midnight and work till 8 AM. (all times are very approximate.)
>>but it's just barbaric to expect me to wake up at dawn and be
>>capable of coherent thought and/or useful work; my brain
>>doesn't even come up to full power until sometime after noon.
>you say the same as Churchill. his idea was that the siesta allowed
>him to do a double shift when he directed the navy in the first world
>war and presided the British government in WW2 (where he was already
>up in years and even seems to have had a heart attack when he went to
>the US towards the end of the war).
i think it's time for my siesta now...
>>if it weren't for my allergies to garlic, seafood, and wine,
>>i'd probably be very happy in Spain.
>I am very happy here, and yet I cannot drink alcohol, do not know how
>to eat sea food and try to avoid garlic because of its smell.
i can drink alcohol, but i'm allergic to wine and i don't
like beer. i'm allergic to a long list of foods as well.
what i've seen of Spanish cooking seems to always contain
at least one of the following ingredients, usually more than
one: shrimp, scallops, mussels, clams, fish, garlic, onion,
tomato products, vinegar, olives or olive oil. all of these
are among the things that make me violently ill. and i don't
know whether my Spanish is good enough to determine whether
a given meal contains any of these.
Vince Barmann
No, I didn't know. I thought it was "Lights", <sigh> Doesn't
even need batteries, then?
Okay. Google says it mean "to shine". Whatever.
Vince B.
Belanger
<ace.li...@verizon.net> wrote:
>according to another post of yours, the exception is
>when the bull performs bravely, and the audience "votes"
>to spare its life.
Thumbs up!
--
BELANGER
'Eeeeyyyyyyyyy.
Belanger
>once you have seen a few fights you can tell a cowardly bull from a
>brave one, and even a calculating mean bull from a "noble" one: and
>"noble" means one that does not calculate his risks....
So your favourite bulls are the most reckless?
--
BELANGER
Seems somehow familiar, what with the Stanley Cup just over...
Kent Paul Dolan
> xanthian wrote:
>> Just FYI, raw, moments-ago-beating, pureed human heart tastes
>> _nothing_ like chicken.
> are you speaking from direct personal experience here?
This is t.b, love, where conclusion jumping is the species
sport, and dropping misleading hints so your reader will
land in the circus clowns' fire net made of paper instead
of on the intended target is the premier intellectual
exercise.
I, personally, have only ever eaten flash frozen heart.
Kent Paul Dolan
> I do not understand why this post is addressed to me.
If it makes you feel any better, after twenty years here
you still won't understand such hapstances.
Ace Lightning
>>>Just FYI, raw, moments-ago-beating, pureed human heart tastes
>>>_nothing_ like chicken.
>>are you speaking from direct personal experience here?
>This is t.b, love, where conclusion jumping is the species
>sport, and dropping misleading hints so your reader will
>land in the circus clowns' fire net made of paper instead
>of on the intended target is the premier intellectual
>exercise.
>I, personally, have only ever eaten flash frozen heart.
well, it's a lot easier to puree in the blender if
you defrost it for a few minutes in the microwave...
Bob Bain
>>http://religion-cults.com/Ancient/America/Hispano-American%20.htm
>i humbly point out that this website is visibly operated by
>Christian fundamentalists who state, right on that page, that
>anything that isn't in the Bible is devil worship. therefore,
>i tend to distrust their "scholarship" regarding the cultures
>they describe.
My apologies. I didn't notice.
>why not? he was teaching about *a* religion.
That's what he said.
And I DO have my Aztek calendar (it's green and dusty) and was indeed
holding up my "I walked the (Olympic) Stadium first" certificate.
I haven't a clue how to read it.
It's green and has a hook on the back so it can be hung on a wall.
Ace Lightning
> And I DO have my Aztek calendar (it's green and dusty) and was indeed
>holding up my "I walked the (Olympic) Stadium first" certificate.
>I haven't a clue how to read it.
>It's green and has a hook on the back so it can be hung on a wall.
i take it you mean a circular plaque (or at least a paper or
cardboard representation thereof), circular in shape and covered
with symbols in the Aztec writing system?
i don't know how to read it either. you might find instructions
on the back, but they'll probably be in Spanish.
cantueso
> On 12 Jun 2004 08:04:34 -0700, cant...@dieznet.com (cantueso) wrote:
>
> >"Kent Paul Dolan" <xant...@well.com> wrote:
> >> Just FYI, raw, moments-ago-beating, pureed human heart tastes
> >> _nothing_ like chicken.
> >
> >I do not understand why this post is addressed to me.
>
> Oh, you'll know when Kent shows up on your stoop with a blender and
> two rolls of duct tape.
sorry, according to dictionary "on your stoop" means "at your door";
but what is a blender? and what is duct tape?
duct tape could be electrician's tape.
cantueso
> "cantueso" <cant...@dieznet.com> wrote:
>
> > I do not understand why this post is addressed to me.
>
> If it makes you feel any better, after twenty years here
> you still won't understand such hapstances.
>
> xanthian.
and what is a hapstance?
astri
cantueso
> cantueso wrote:
> >>why is it "disagreeable to see" women bullfighters? i
> >>understand that some of them are quite skilled.
> >it is not a question of skill. it is basically a ritual. ideally, the
> >matador, in the center of the arena, does not move. he lets the bull
> >move. ideally he "wraps" the bull around himself so closely that the
> >bull's blood wipes off on the matador's belly.
>
> i don't understand what that has to do with the matador
> being male or female.
I know that you do not understand. it is easy to see.
equality is a legal concept, only a legal stipulation, not a fact.
however, as a purely subjective observation or, if you like, a
culturally induced bias, I would hold that neither the costume, nor
the rules of the game are made for women.
>
> >>man or woman, i do admire anyone who can run and scamper
> >>about in the full "traje de luces" (which is a very beautiful
> >>costume, although not terribly practical for the purpose).
> >the matador must never be seen running. his movements should all be
> >pre-meditated. this is theory. in fact, because of bad luck or a bad
> >head or a bad stomach, the mood the matador is in will influence his
> >performance. however, by law he is obliged to kill the bull. if he
> >can't, the police will arrest him (I heard of a case like that only
> >once. the matador refused to kill, simply said he could not, and he
> >was led off by the police)
>
> according to another post of yours, the exception is
> when the bull performs bravely, and the audience "votes"
> to spare its life.
one does not exclude the other.
there is always somebody presiding the corrida. for instance, if
people think that the bull, as he comes in, seems not fit to fight
because of a limp, for instance, they hold up a white hanky. if the
president sees that a large majority hold up their hankies, he will
order the bull to be returned to the stables.
this is a valid voting procedure, isn't it?
the same way there is a vote to decide on the prizes to be given to
the matador and there could be a vote to spare the bull's life. the
bull goes back to the farm and many people will remember him by his
name.
(the same bull cannot be used again in another fight)
cantueso
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:16:25 GMT, Ace Lightning
> <ace.li...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >according to another post of yours, the exception is
> >when the bull performs bravely, and the audience "votes"
> >to spare its life.
>
> Thumbs up!
nooooooooooooo.
I am Swiss.
until very recently and maybe still now, in some small towns people
go to the plaza; the mayor reads a proposal and the people vote by
holding up their hands.
your vote is public. you have to be able to stand up for your
opinion......
at the bull fight, of course, the voting is irrational because one
becomes a member of a mass of people etc etc
Bob Bain
>i take it you mean a circular plaque (or at least a paper or
>cardboard representation thereof), circular in shape and covered
>with symbols in the Aztec writing system?
Indeed.
>i don't know how to read it either. you might find instructions
>on the back, but they'll probably be in Spanish.
I believe it's meant as a momento/souvenier. The back consists of
green cloth and a hook.
I'll check google to see if I can discover how it was used. From the
site alluded to earlier it's some form of indicator of when rituals
are held. I'm unlikely to be conducting Aztek rituals in downtown
Werrington.
I doubt if most Mexicans know how to read it either :-)
Bob Bain
in message id <rrboc099nvcv8eeav...@4ax.com>:
> I'll check google to see if I can discover how it was used. From the
>site alluded to earlier it's some form of indicator of when rituals
>are held. I'm unlikely to be conducting Aztek rituals in downtown
>Werrington.
http://www.earthmatrix.com/serie02/cuad02-2.htm
------------------------------------------------
The Aztec Calendar's design is based on a set of concentric rings,
divided into eight segments. The concentric ring around the fase of
Tonatiuh consists of the Nahui Ollin, signifying 4 movement. The four
square-like spaces contain the glyphs for a) Nahui Ocelot (4 Tiger);
b) Nahui Ehecatl (4 Wind); c) Nahui Quiahuitl (4 Rain); and d) Nahui
Atl or Atonatiuh (4 Water). Above Tonatiuh is a double lunar-solar ray
(e).
Below Tonatiuh, we may also observe the breastplate with two quinounx
(f) and five featherlike (g) figures, respectively representing the
quantities of 52 and 104 (as well as other designated sums). The
claw-like figures (h) on either side of the face are said to represent
those of an eagle, clutching human hearts, possibly representing a
sacrifice to the Sun. The reader should also note the five coordinate
circles (i), which have also been identified as representing specific
numerical quantities.
----------------------------------------------------
The Day-Glyph Ring
There are twenty day glyphs identified in this ring. It should be
noted that on the Aztec Calendar, the pointer does not actually point
towards a specific glyph, but rather it is aimed between the glyph
numbers 1 and 20....
At one time it was stated that the calendar year should begin on the
day Cipactli (day one), although in distinct cultures it appears that
the first day varied. This is congruent, however, with the
counter-clockwise movement in reading the Aztec Calendar (whose
direction was evidently "clockwise" to the ancient peoples).
----------------------
In this manner, the pointer could then be aimed at day 1 Cipactli, for
example, the first day of the year. Immediately one would know many
other dates and their corresponding day glyphs. With the pointer aimed
thus as day 1, we know the last day of the trecena (13-day cycle),
which is in this case 13 Acatl. One can also calculate or immediately
know the last day of the 260-day cycle, which falls on day-glyph 20
Xochitl. We also know the day-glyph corresponding to day number 364,
which is Cuetzpallin, day-glyph number 4, and so on, as far as one can
count or imagine.
With the pointer designed in this fashion, it becomes relatively easy
to compute the corresponding day glyphs in some calculations by simply
rotating the pointer.
Nonetheless, one wonders whether this might have actually been the
case. For one can proceed without turning the pointer physically, by
simply computing the number of spaces mentally. For example, one may
count mentally by tens or twenties on the day-glyph ring, then simply
observe the last two digits of any sum of days in order to know which
day glyph a particular date might fall on. If the second-to-last digit
is an even number, then simply count off the last number as the
day-glyph number 20 in a counterclockwise fashion; that is, the day
163 would correspond to day-glyph 20 plus 3, or the day glyph Calli.
If the second-to-last number is an odd number, then count off the last
number as of the day glyph number 10 plus the last digit
counter-clockwise; that is, 174 days would correspond to the day glyph
number 10 plus 4, in this case day glyph 14, Ocelotl.
If one has memorized the 20 day glyphs, then by simply analyzing the
last two digits of any number (even into the millions of days), one
could immediately know which day glyph corresponds to that number (or
day). In this manner, one might see how the calendar itself might have
functioned as a symbolic tool for making the calculations mentally, as
well as having served as an obvious record of the method sculpted in
stone with specific data.
Consider for example the following: the day 1,768,163 would still fall
on Calli; and the day similar to our previous example, 1,853,174 would
still fall on Ocelotl. Simply observe again the last two digits.
Still, one could envisage having used an actual pointer (either
mentally or physically) in order to achieve numerous calculations
almost automatically. For as soon as one has indicated the day-glyph
on the tip of the pointer, then one can immediately observe the
remaining positions. Even a seemingly complex cycle, such as knowing
the first and last day glyphs of the five cycles of 584 days of Venus'
rotation would be easily distinguished on the pointer:
---------------------------------------------
HELP !!
Belanger
>sorry, according to dictionary "on your stoop" means "at your door";
Correct.
>but what is a blender?
It is similar to the so-called "food-processor". It is a kind of an
electric jug with blades that spin in the bottom. As far as I know, a
blender is the simplest means of making a milkshake, or of getting rid
of the cat that keeps shitting in your tulips.
>and what is duct tape?
Duct tape is your first line of defence against those Taliban
chemtrails and so forth.
Here is just one example of its many uses:
http://www.fmc12.homestead.com/Flasher.html
--
BELANGER
No further comment.
Vince Barmann
Odd, there was no entry on Dictionary.com for "hapstance".
Other google entries were all obvious misspellings of
"happenstance".
Google is not my friend, <snif>
Vince B.
Kent Paul Dolan
> astri wrote:
> > On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, cantueso wrote:
> >>and what is a hapstance?
> > dictionary.com is your friend.
> Odd, there was no entry on Dictionary.com for "hapstance".
> Other google entries were all obvious misspellings of
> "happenstance".
They're not "misspellings", they are evidence of a word
undergoing evolution; the formal word is "happenstance",
but in my whole life I've never heard it pronounced in
full, it's always been "hap'stance" instead. I suppose
there are people whose back teeth this wears down as fast
as seeing "probably" spelled "prolly" or "a lot" (mis)spelled
"alot" does mine, but hey, my dentist is getting rich, why
shouldn't theirs?
xanthian.
> Google is not my friend, <snif>
Well, not since they atarted drowning their responses in paid
ads, no. That's the blunder that stopped me using the Northern
Lights search engine quick as a shot. Looks like Google is
itching to be replaced in the search engine marketplace, and
there's lots of people who'd be overjoyed to sell search
services to intermediate parties, rather than advertising to
annoy the end user, the gig that was once making Google look
worth an IPO.
Now, keep your money.
Ace Lightning
>>i don't understand what that has to do with the matador
>>being male or female.
>I know that you do not understand. it is easy to see.
>equality is a legal concept, only a legal stipulation, not a fact.
>however, as a purely subjective observation or, if you like, a
>culturally induced bias, I would hold that neither the costume, nor
>the rules of the game are made for women.
>>according to another post of yours, the exception is
>>when the bull performs bravely, and the audience "votes"
>>to spare its life.
>one does not exclude the other.
>there is always somebody presiding the corrida. for instance, if
>people think that the bull, as he comes in, seems not fit to fight
>because of a limp, for instance, they hold up a white hanky. if the
>president sees that a large majority hold up their hankies, he will
>order the bull to be returned to the stables.
>this is a valid voting procedure, isn't it?
a bit subjective, but mostly valid, yes.
>the same way there is a vote to decide on the prizes to be given to
>the matador and there could be a vote to spare the bull's life. the
>bull goes back to the farm and many people will remember him by his
>name.
>(the same bull cannot be used again in another fight)
what if the opposite happens - if the matador's performance
is particularly outstanding? do they really award him "both
ears and the tail" of the bull he just killed?
Ace Lightning
>>i take it you mean a circular plaque (or at least a paper or
>>cardboard representation thereof), circular in shape and covered
>>with symbols in the Aztec writing system?
> Indeed.
>>i don't know how to read it either. you might find instructions
>>on the back, but they'll probably be in Spanish.
> I believe it's meant as a momento/souvenier. The back consists of
>green cloth and a hook.
> I'll check google to see if I can discover how it was used. From the
>site alluded to earlier it's some form of indicator of when rituals
>are held. I'm unlikely to be conducting Aztek rituals in downtown
>Werrington.
they wouldn't work properly anyway, because you're in the
wrong hemisphere. the complex order of Aztec ritual days
was derived from celestial observations that only apply in
the longitudes of Mexico.
>I doubt if most Mexicans know how to read it either :-)
you might be surprised...
Ace Lightning
>http://www.earthmatrix.com/serie02/cuad02-2.htm
>HELP !!
well, the current set of cycles-within-cycles will end in
2012, and it's somewhat fashionable to believe that this
means the end of the world...
cantueso
google works really well and better than any dictionary if you need to
know how a word is used in context.
since I had never seen that hapstance before, I did not feel like
looking it up. priorities.
cantueso
> cantueso wrote:
> >>i don't understand what that has to do with the matador
> >>being male or female.
> >I know that you do not understand. it is easy to see.
> >equality is a legal concept, only a legal stipulation, not a fact.
> >however, as a purely subjective observation or, if you like, a
> >culturally induced bias, I would hold that neither the costume, nor
> >the rules of the game are made for women.
>
> why, or why not? i truly don't understand this.
it is entirely subjective and, besides, irrelevant. there are very
few women out there, and they do not last.
>
> >>according to another post of yours, the exception is
> >>when the bull performs bravely, and the audience "votes"
> >>to spare its life.
> >one does not exclude the other.
> >there is always somebody presiding the corrida. for instance, if
> >people think that the bull, as he comes in, seems not fit to fight
> >because of a limp, for instance, they hold up a white hanky. if the
> >president sees that a large majority hold up their hankies, he will
> >order the bull to be returned to the stables.
> >this is a valid voting procedure, isn't it?
>
> a bit subjective, but mostly valid, yes.
no, subjective it is not, but subject to mass enthusiasm and mass
anger and hysterics.
>
> >the same way there is a vote to decide on the prizes to be given to
> >the matador and there could be a vote to spare the bull's life. the
> >bull goes back to the farm and many people will remember him by his
> >name.
> >(the same bull cannot be used again in another fight)
>
> what if the opposite happens - if the matador's performance
> is particularly outstanding? do they really award him "both
> ears and the tail" of the bull he just killed?
the bull fight is very very popular. there is one in every little
village in summer. in the little villages there is more cruelty, less
ritual than in the big towns. in Madrid, the prizes are the ears and
exceptionally the tail. I have heard it said that in small towns they
also cut off the bull's feet.
in small towns I have seen things that should not be mentioned, so
stupid, so cruel. incredible. the rich take off: they go to the
beaches. the poor stay at home, and during the "fiesta" the poor get
a little bull to "play" with. they get drunk and then they attack the
bull with shovels and motor bikes for hours and hours and hours. and
the next day again, for hours and hours and hours......in the presence
of their women and wives!!!! that laugh and giggle!!!!!!
it is completely unintelligible and would make a foreigner blind with
rage.
the rich (who do not participate) think that the rabble will be rabble