What Really Killed the Dinosaurs (Hint: It Wasn't a Global Flood)?
Budikka666
At Jerry Coyne's blog, Matthew Cobb discusses an alternative asteroid
which may have killed off the dinos in place of the commonly
acknowledged Chixculub asteroid. Sankar Chatterjay is raising
awareness of "...a submarine structure off the western coast of
India, which he has called “Shiva”, is in fact a massive crater
produced by a meteor strike. “Shiva” – if it exists – is 500 km
across, and would be indicative of a a meteor about 40km wide – nearly
10 times larger than the estimated size of Chixculub object."
So now we have a contest between two heavyweights (the asteroids!),
and this is where the science gets interesting. Only time, evidence,
and rational investigation will figure it out. No amount of vacuous
appealing to fictional floods can do it.
Budikka
ilbe...@gmail.com
> http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/what-killed-the-di...
It sure wasnt an asteriod that hit earth and wiped out just the
Dinosaurs and not other species ! If it occured that way, then that
was one careful and compassionate asteroid !
Ralph
> On Nov 16, 3:50 pm, Budikka666 <budik...@netscape.net> wrote:
>> http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/what-killed-the-di...
>> At Jerry Coyne's blog, Matthew Cobb discusses an alternative asteroid
>> which may have killed off the dinos in place of the commonly
>> acknowledged Chixculub asteroid. Sankar Chatterjay is raising
>> awareness of "...a submarine structure off the western coast of
>> produced by a meteor strike. �Shiva� � if it exists � is 500 km
>> across, and would be indicative of a a meteor about 40km wide � nearly
>> 10 times larger than the estimated size of Chixculub object."
>>
>> So now we have a contest between two heavyweights (the asteroids!),
>> and this is where the science gets interesting. Only time, evidence,
>> and rational investigation will figure it out. No amount of vacuous
>> appealing to fictional floods can do it.
>>
>> Budikka
>
> It sure wasnt an asteriod that hit earth and wiped out just the
> Dinosaurs and not other species ! If it occured that way, then that
> was one careful and compassionate asteroid !
Who said it didn't?
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
> On Nov 16, 3:50 pm, Budikka666 <budik...@netscape.net> wrote:
>> http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/what-killed-the-di...
>> At Jerry Coyne's blog, Matthew Cobb discusses an alternative asteroid
>> which may have killed off the dinos in place of the commonly
>> acknowledged Chixculub asteroid. Sankar Chatterjay is raising
>> awareness of "...a submarine structure off the western coast of
>> across, and would be indicative of a a meteor about 40km wide � nearly
>> 10 times larger than the estimated size of Chixculub object."
>>
>> So now we have a contest between two heavyweights (the asteroids!),
>> and this is where the science gets interesting. Only time, evidence,
>> and rational investigation will figure it out. No amount of vacuous
>> appealing to fictional floods can do it.
>>
>> Budikka
>
> It sure wasnt an asteriod that hit earth and wiped out just the
> Dinosaurs and not other species ! If it occured that way, then that
> was one careful and compassionate asteroid !
>
compassionate.
You have the only mythical deity that can actually brag about wiping out
every living thing on this planet, because he had a temper tantrum.
Imagine, puppies, kittens, cub seals, pregnant mothers, infants, all
drowned by the tyrant you try to convince us is real. And according the
myth, he's not happy doing it once, oh no. This fucker plans to do it
again, by fire. Fortunately, it's only mythology, except to empty
headed loons like you.
Go preach it to your church Dave. The grownups don't need your fairy tales.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
http://azhotops.blogspot.com
A.A #1143 http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
BAAWA Knight Sir Karl of the Solaris Media
____________________________________________________________________
haiku jones
It didn't kill off only dinosaurs.
But dinosaurs are what gets everyone's
attention.
Haiku Jones
raven1
The K-T extinction event wiped out 75% of all species living at the
time, not just non-avian dinosaurs. Do you ever bother to check the
facts before you post?
walksalone
news:d8b25bc5-5c23-4199...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/what-killed-the-dino
> saurs/ At Jerry Coyne's blog, Matthew Cobb discusses an alternative
snip new stuff.
> So now we have a contest between two heavyweights (the asteroids!),
> and this is where the science gets interesting. Only time, evidence,
> and rational investigation will figure it out. No amount of vacuous
> appealing to fictional floods can do it.
I favor the disease theory, which the evidence seems to support. Not a
palentologist by any sort of training, but we don't find herds beeing
fossilized, just individuals & family[?] groups. At least not in the
quanity that such a meteor strike should produce.
Of course, this is just a WAG & not a SWAG.
> Budikka
Nice article, thanks.
walksalone who has so many questions, & so little time to find any
intelligent amswers with.
Never before have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded
perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church?
[Black Adder II]
Mike
> I favor the disease theory, which the evidence seems to support. >Not a
> palentologist by any sort of training, but we don't find herds beeing
> fossilized, just individuals & family[?] groups. At least not in the
> quanity that such a meteor strike should produce.
> Of course, this is just a WAG & not a SWAG.
That would make sense if it was only one or two groups that went
extinct. But how on earth would disease simultaneously cause the
extinction of dinosaurs, the not closely related marine reptile fauna,
ammonites, etc.? Surely there must have been a HUGE environmental
upheaval to cause so many distinct and unrelated lineages to go
extinct more or less simultaneously.
Cory Albrecht
> Budikka666<budi...@netscape.net> wrote in
> news:d8b25bc5-5c23-4199...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
>
>> http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/what-killed-the-dino
>> saurs/ At Jerry Coyne's blog, Matthew Cobb discusses an alternative
>
> snip new stuff.
>> So now we have a contest between two heavyweights (the asteroids!),
>> and this is where the science gets interesting. Only time, evidence,
>> and rational investigation will figure it out. No amount of vacuous
>> appealing to fictional floods can do it.
>
> I favor the disease theory, which the evidence seems to support. Not a
> palentologist by any sort of training, but we don't find herds beeing
> quanity that such a meteor strike should produce.
> Of course, this is just a WAG& not a SWAG.
Yes, it is a WAG, based on a few unsupported assumptions:
1) That all animals killed by the strike would have all dropped dead at
the same time so they could potentially be fossilised all together.
More like the weaklings & infants would have died earlier and the
stronger would have wandered away dying elsewhere.
2) That even if an entire herd would all drop dead close enough in time
and space too each other, they would all therefore get fossilised.
Fossilisation is a precarious and sometime thing and it's not difficult
to see how the animal to the left of me fossilizes but the one to the
right does not.
3) That in spite of all this it thas never happened.
Go look up Sinornithomimus dongi.
>
>> Budikka
>
> Nice article, thanks.
>
> walksalone who has so many questions,& so little time to find any
Devils Advocaat
> http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/what-killed-the-di...
Here is a little more info about the Shiva Crater, which is apparently
in the Mumbai Offshore Basin.
walksalone
@fenris.cjb.net:
> walksalone wrote, on 09-11-16 07:00 PM:
>> Budikka666<budi...@netscape.net> wrote in
>> news:d8b25bc5-5c23-4199...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/what-killed-the-dino
>>> saurs/ At Jerry Coyne's blog, Matthew Cobb discusses an alternative
>>
>> snip new stuff.
>>> So now we have a contest between two heavyweights (the asteroids!),
>>> and this is where the science gets interesting. Only time, evidence,
>>> and rational investigation will figure it out. No amount of vacuous
>>> appealing to fictional floods can do it.
>>
>> I favor the disease theory, which the evidence seems to support. Not a
>> palentologist by any sort of training, but we don't find herds beeing
>> fossilized, just individuals& family[?] groups. At least not in the
>> quanity that such a meteor strike should produce.
>> Of course, this is just a WAG& not a SWAG.
>
> Yes, it is a WAG, based on a few unsupported assumptions:
That wag is not supported strictly by my assumptions.
> 1) That all animals killed by the strike would have all dropped dead at
> the same time so they could potentially be fossilised all together.
You may be assuming something there, you're including the entire world in
that presumption. Meant to or not. I don't. I do include those within the
general area of approximately from the strike area to the southern boundary
of Colorado where seafloor from the Yucat�n strike has been found.
In that general area, based on work by those that understand these things
are just the drastic increase in heat and lack of oxygen, one could presume
that herds that were out grazing would be found close together. We have a
sense of almost instantaneous loss of oxygen and heat in excess of 300�C.
This of course would not include the lone predator, such as the raptors
that were known to abound in the area. The grazing animals, yes. Beyond
that we find signs of starvation, small dinosaurs with stones where their
stomach would have been. They knew the stone was not food, but they had to
have something. This of course excludes areas such as Asia and Europe for
they had to wait until the winds and debris had continued the devastation.
A side note, if I recall correctly, all ocean life that was near the
surface, say within light range or good visibility, died. Cooked. Or quite
probably in the area of the impact itself, from compaction due to the shock
wave. A shock wave that would also have affected the dinosaurs in the area.
So no, it's not simply my WAG, but even if I had all the information and
can show it to be true, it would still be in my case, a WAG.
> More like the weaklings & infants would have died earlier and the
> stronger would have wandered away dying elsewhere.
Outside the immediate kill zone, I agree.
> 2) That even if an entire herd would all drop dead close enough in time
> and space too each other, they would all therefore get fossilised.
Wrong assumption, or at least if you're applying it to me it is. I am quite
aware of the scarcity of conditions for fossilization. Add to that the
immediate problem of all surface water being temporary vaporized, and the
odds for fossilization decrease even worse.
> Fossilisation is a precarious and sometime thing and it's not difficult
> to see how the animal to the left of me fossilizes but the one to the
> right does not.
I hope you're not expecting me to argue with this, ever been to Hells
Creek, Montana?
> 3) That in spite of all this it thas never happened.
I have to qualify that, that we know of or can confirm. Either way.
> Go look up Sinornithomimus dongi.
Mythology is my primary interest, & with over 200 hits, can you narrow that
down a bit. Are they concurrent with the KT event? Are they prior or after?
Or are you using them as an example of some of the things known to be
required for fossilization or occasion? In any event, in order for me to
read up on them, I'll need something more specific from at least five
different sources. Why five, if you only read from one sheet of music, you
can only learn one version of a song.
walksalone who has no wish to be abrasive or abrupt in this particular
case, but I'm left with more questions than I have received answers. And
therefore, I must refrain from demanding evidence to support the other
persons point of view, but if they elect to provide it, I would appreciate
it.
Who's afraid of the big bad flood? I would suspect that some of these are
going to be 404 items, has been a while since I did any research involving
the flood.
Arguments for validity:
Noah -3000 Gregorian.
http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/flood.asp
http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre04legends.html
http://www.jesus.org.uk/pod/Arts/Literature/Myths_and_Folktales/Myths
Arguments against validity:
http://www.noahs-ark-flood.com/flyer.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/titania.htm
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/puck.htm
http://www.neopage.com/know/flood_myths.htm
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/f/flood_myths.html
http://mcclungmuseum.utk.edu/specex/ur/ur-flood.htm
http://www.crystalinks.com/floodstories.html
http://www.mythome.org/fludmyt5.html
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_myth_index.htm
http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Myths_and_Folktales/Myths/
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/flood-phil.html
http://www.mythome.org/fludmytb.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
http://www.story-lovers.com/listsparallelmyths.html
http://www.reference.com/Dir/Arts/Literature/Myths_and_Folktales/Myths
http://www.enigmastation.com/~cislyn/classics/flood.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4253797 [audio]
http://alexm.here.ru/mirrors/www.enteract.com/jwalz/Eliade/073.html
http://www.skepticfiles.org/evolut/flooddoc.htm [Christian & scientist
author]
http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/flood.htm
http://members.aol.com/newssciencepage/040906_noah.htm [AOL?]
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/05/0528_020528
_sunkencities.html
walksalone
8287af...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
> On Nov 16, 7:00�pm, walksalone <spamstop...@nerdshack.com> >
>
>
>> I favor the disease theory, which the evidence seems to support. �>Not
> a
>> palentologist by any sort of training, but we don't find herds beeing
>> fossilized, just individuals & family[?] groups. �At least not in the
>> quanity that such a meteor strike should produce.
>> Of course, this is just a WAG & not a SWAG.
>
> That would make sense if it was only one or two groups that went
> extinct. But how on earth would disease simultaneously cause the
> extinction of dinosaurs, the not closely related marine reptile fauna,
I doubt it would be simultaneous worldwide. But we know that all life
receives a disease of some form or another sooner or later. The problem,
insofar as I can understand it, is it would appear that the dinosaurs
were dying out anyway. There had been no major climatic change in the
food chain hadn't changed that much either. So why were they dying out?
It's possible that they were dying at the standard rate, what ever that
was, and we just can't find the fossils. On the other hand, it appears
about like the Black death in Europe by way of India. We have a global
event and no handy-dandy answer. Even if disease was the primary cause,
how could we detect it at this date.
To my way of thinking, would know or need to know the population of
dinosaurs, as a group, for at least 1000 years prior to this event. We
don't know, we can never know.
However, we do know that the further back we go in time, the more neat
stuff we find, eventually. How thorough that is where the dinosaurs are
concerned, I do not know.
But I can accept the fact that it appears they were dying out anyway, and
the impact simply finished them off. Along with a whole lot of other
life.
Among the things that brings us to my attention is, binding seabottom
from the Yucat�n impact in Colorado all places. Confirmed if the person I
was listening to add the correct information to date, and I suspect he
did.
Why don't we find fossils, or bone remains, in the immediate impact zone
from that date? There was one hell of a lot of heat, and Apocalypse if
you will, wind, and light all at the same time.
Animals tend to congregate with their own kind during times of sheer
panic. It may well be the herd instinct, I do not know.
What I do know, is at the tail end of the dinosaurs reign, we don't find
huge populations that the food supply would have supported, we find
isolated individuals and small groupings. I've heard and seen names I
cannot even pronounce involving these animals, they were massive & during
their day they were populous.
> ammonites, etc.? Surely there must have been a HUGE environmental
> upheaval to cause so many distinct and unrelated lineages to go
> extinct more or less simultaneously.
Indeed there was, imagine if you can the fireball that was created just
by the entry of the meteor into the atmosphere. Now the world did not
stand still it's still rotating. That event is so far back in time we'll
can only speculate, but my speculation runs along these lines.
1.there was an apocalyptic event we call the KT event.
2.the heat and wind storms generated by this impact, during its entry
into the atmosphere and after its impact, can only be imagined and
speculated on. We can run scientific models which should give us an
approximation regarding the temperatures and wind speeds. We cannot
accurately run a scientific model because how wide the firestorm would be
because of burning debris and red-hot rocks being thrown throughout the
atmosphere. It would not be an instantaneous event, it might well have
been.
3.it would have been the barbecue to end all barbecues.
Hope that helps Mike, probably not but I hope it does. You can tell I am
out of my league on this topic. But I can armchair speculate with the
best of them.
walksalone who is appreciating these conversations because, for a change
I get to think about something and actually consider what I'm aware of
which is far more than what I know on this topic.
What & why, two fascinating questions that can be applied to almost any
subject.
BACCHUS, n. A convenient deity invented by the ancients as an
excuse for getting drunk. Devil's dictionary
MarkA
> http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/what-killed-the-dinosaurs/
> At Jerry Coyne's blog, Matthew Cobb discusses an alternative asteroid
> which may have killed off the dinos in place of the commonly acknowledged
> Chixculub asteroid. Sankar Chatterjay is raising awareness of "...a
> submarine structure off the western coast of India, which he has called
> ļæ½Shivaļæ½, is in fact a massive crater produced by a meteor strike.
> ļæ½Shivaļæ½ - if it exists - is 500 km across, and would be indicative
> of a a meteor about 40km wide - nearly 10 times larger than the
> estimated size of Chixculub object."
>
> So now we have a contest between two heavyweights (the asteroids!), and
> this is where the science gets interesting. Only time, evidence, and
> rational investigation will figure it out. No amount of vacuous appealing
> to fictional floods can do it.
>
> Budikka
I've heard other scientists speculate that even thought the Chixculub
impact would have had a huge environmental impact, it would not have been
enough to cause the widespread extinctions that ensued, nor does it
explain the survival of some Orders, such as the Crocodilia, which share
the same habitat, body size, etc, as others that went extinct.
The moral of the story, to paraphrase Mencken, is that for every complex
problem there is a solution that is neat, plausible, and wrong.
--
MarkA
Keeper of Things Put There Only Just The Night Before
About eight o'clock
default
tirebiter
But only because they had been the dominant species on earth for the
previous 150,000,000 years.
I recall reading a theory a long time ago that the only land animals
that survived the "nuclear winter" that probably lasted for years,
were small, with an adult weight of at most only 2-3 pounds. That
gave the tiny mammalian species an evolutionary boost.
---
a.a. #2273
Budikka666
The challenge I offered you in this thread:
http://tinyurl.com/nubnxr
on May 11th 2009, only to see you RUN AWAY.
Unmet challenge #2
Provide *positive*, *scientific* evidence *for* a creation. Not Bible
quotes. Not quotes from creationists or atheists or evolutionists.
Not divine revelation. Not juvenile unsupported ignorant assertions.
Not chants of 'no it isn't!'. Not counter challenges when you haven't
even met ours, but *positive*, *scientific* evidence *for* a creation.
Unmet challenge #3
Provide evidence that shows how DNA is the work of a creator. Show us
this evidence and explain how it demonstrates a creator.
Unmet challenge #4
Support claims that bacteria have never arisen from anything other
than bacteria/life has never arisen from anything but life.
Unmet challenge #5
Provide evidence in support of the creationist claim that information
cannot be added to a genome.
Unmet challenge #6
Define scientifically what the "genetic boundaries" are: specifically
what the mechanism is which (according to creationist claims) prevents
one species from evolving into another species over time.
Unmet Challenge #7
Provide your scientific evidence (as opposed to your LYING,
unsupported bullshit, which has been refuted repeatedly) to support
your creationist claim that life cannot arise from organic chemistry,
when scientists have repeatedly demonstrated that the truth is quite
to the contrary
Unmet Challenge #8
Prove that there's a god out there waiting to judge me when I die.
Otherwise you and your creationist fundie ilk are nothing but pathetic
LIARS and FRAUDS.
Unmet Challenge #9
Prove that we have a soul. Demonstrate scientifically where it is and
what its purpose is.
Unmet Challenge #10
Prove that this fictional Jesus isn't fictional and that he literally
died and that he came back to life and went to Heaven.
Here's a list of the strongest advocates of creation on Usenet WHO
HAVE FLED one or more of these challenges:
Chicken Adman
Chicken Andrew
Chicken Brother Ted
Chicken Codebreaker
Chicken Curtjester1
Chicken Duke
Chicken Gabriel
Chicken I'll Be Bauck
Chicken Pastor Dave
Let's face it, NOT A SINGLE creationist on Usenet has been able to
find the guts to face these challenges. This fictional god of theirs
has deserted every one of these liars and frauds That's what a sad,
pathetic and vacuous bunch of lousy, low-life scum they are.
Case closed. End of story. End of You.
Budikka
Ken
> It sure wasnt an asteriod that hit earth and wiped out just the
> Dinosaurs and not other species ! If it occured that way, then that
> was one careful and compassionate asteroid
Not other species?
An usual, another Dimwitted Dave OUT and OUT LIE.
\
There have been a series of mass extinctions over the 1/2 billion
years
The Ordovician period 443 million years ago
At the close of the Devonian period, 374 million years ago
The Great Dying at the end of the Permian period 251 million year ago
when 90% of ocean life vanished, while "only" 70% of the plants
animals and insects died
The Triassic boundary 201 million years ago
And the last Cretaceous (K/T) extintion which had been
PROVEN to have been caused by an impact at Chicxulub as 85% of all
species died in the End-Cretaceous (K-T) extinction
hypa...@comcast.net
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:50:16 -0800, Budikka666 wrote:
> > At Jerry Coyne's blog, Matthew Cobb discusses an alternative asteroid
> > which may have killed off the dinos in place of the commonly acknowledged
> > Chixculub asteroid. Sankar Chatterjay is raising awareness of "...a
> > submarine structure off the western coast of India, which he has called
> > ´Shiva¡ - if it exists - is 500 km across, and would be indicative
> > of a a meteor about 40km wide - nearly 10 times larger than the
> > estimated size of Chixculub object."
>
> > So now we have a contest between two heavyweights (the asteroids!), and
> > this is where the science gets interesting. Only time, evidence, and
> > rational investigation will figure it out. No amount of vacuous appealing
> > to fictional floods can do it.
>
> > Budikka
>
> I've heard other scientists speculate that even thought the Chixculub
> impact would have had a huge environmental impact, it would not have been
> enough to cause the widespread extinctions that ensued, nor does it
> explain the survival of some Orders, such as the Crocodilia, which share
> the same habitat, body size, etc, as others that went extinct.
>
> The moral of the story, to paraphrase Mencken, is that for every complex
> problem there is a solution that is neat, plausible, and wrong.
>