patch review
Ondrej Certik
event though we agreed to push trivial patches in without review, I
don't find this patch as trivial and I have objections against it:
commit dde86ad5af45e09c2490c94a348857b85a0747fa
Author: Kirill Smelkov <ki...@landau.phys.spbu.ru>
Date: Tue Nov 11 10:33:34 2008 +0300
Goodbye SymPy
diff --git a/README b/README
index 217bda2..402ec1b 100644
--- a/README
+++ b/README
@@ -18,7 +18,6 @@ the order of the date of their first contribution):
Pearu Peterson <pearu.p...@gmail.com>
Fredrik Johansson <fredrik....@gmail.com>
Chris Wu <chri...@gmail.com>
- Kirill Smelkov <ki...@landau.phys.spbu.ru>
I don't agree with this, because this file lists all people, active or
not, who contributed patches.
Ulrich Hecht <ulrich...@gmail.com>
Goutham Lakshminarayan <dl.go...@gmail.com>
David Lawrence <dmlaw...@gmail.com>
@@ -158,9 +157,7 @@ during the summer 2007 as part of the Google Summer of Code.
joined the development during the summer 2007 and he has made SymPy much more
competitive by rewriting the core from scratch, that has made it from 10x to
100x faster. Jurjen N.E. Bos has contributed pretty printing and other patches.
-Fredrik Johansson has wrote mpmath and contributed a lot of patches. Kirill
-Smelkov has joined the development in autumn 2007 and has improved the overall
-quality of SymPy a lot and is currently one of the most active developers.
+Fredrik Johansson has wrote mpmath and contributed a lot of patches.
This section should be extended, but what is there is true, only it
was accurate about half a year ago, or earlier.
7. Citation
diff --git a/doc/src/aboutus.txt b/doc/src/aboutus.txt
index 7385f0a..2b1daf8 100644
--- a/doc/src/aboutus.txt
+++ b/doc/src/aboutus.txt
@@ -22,7 +22,6 @@ more details what they do and what they are interested in.
#. `Pearu Peterson <http://wiki.sympy.org/wiki/Pearu_Peterson>`_: new core, sym
#. `Fredrik Johansson <http://wiki.sympy.org/wiki/Fredrik_Johansson>`_: mpmath
#. Chris Wu: GSoC 2007, linear algebra module
-#. `Kirill Smelkov <http://wiki.sympy.org/wiki/Kirill_Smelkov>`_: everything, r
#. Ulrich Hecht: pattern matching and other patches
#. Goutham Lakshminarayan: number theory functions
#. David Lawrence: GHOP, Mathematica parser, square root denesting
The same here -- this list lists all people that contributed something to SymPy.
So I propose to revert this patch. What do you think?
Ondrej
Friedrich Hagedorn
I am also against this patch. You did a good job in the sympy
developement (fast patch reviewing, good patches, nice eMails, ...)
It' pity that you say goodbye, but I think you need the time for
your Ph.D. (btw, it sounds interesting). Anyway, it was a good time
with you and I wish you many good ideas for you Ph.D.
By,
Friedrich
Ondrej Certik
>
> Hello Kirill,
>
> I am also against this patch. You did a good job in the sympy
> developement (fast patch reviewing, good patches, nice eMails, ...)
>
> It' pity that you say goodbye, but I think you need the time for
> your Ph.D. (btw, it sounds interesting). Anyway, it was a good time
> with you and I wish you many good ideas for you Ph.D.
Exactly, my words. Kirill has done a phenomenal job with sympy and as
to me, he is welcomed back anytime!
He told me he will reply in the evening, as he is busy at the moment.
Ondrej
Ondrej Certik
Until this issue is resolved (either way), I reverted the patch:
http://hg.sympy.org/sympy/rev/0fd0ff3467d3
Let's first discuss this, reach consensus and then push in a fix, if
any is needed.
Ondrej
Fabian Seoane
I think that if Kirr submitted this patch it is clear that he does not
want his name associated with sympy (or that he is extremely humble).
We all are in great debt with Kirr, and if we want's his name removed
from the repo (we all have our reasons), then we must respect his
decision.
Just my 2 cents.
--------------------
Fabian Seoane
http://fseoane.net
Ondrej Certik
>
> Don't want to start a flame with this, but ...
>
> I think that if Kirr submitted this patch it is clear that he does not
> want his name associated with sympy (or that he is extremely humble).
> We all are in great debt with Kirr, and if we want's his name removed
> from the repo (we all have our reasons), then we must respect his
> decision.
Yes, I completely agree. But Kirr should tell us if this is what he
wants and then it should be explained in the log. I think he will tell
us soon when he is less busy. If you Kirr want your name to be
removed, we'll do it. But it will remain in the hg/git logs and our
mailinglists anyway --- so I'll respect your decision, but I'd like to
ask you if you could please consider leaving your name in our list of
contributors. It is useful to a lot of people. At least to put there
some acronym, like Kirr, without an email address.
Thanks,
Ondrej
Kirill Smelkov
Thanks Ondrej and Friedrich for your good words, here is my story:
In 2007/2008 when my cat was painfully dying, and my grandmother was
dying too because of cancer, It could seem strange, but I was feeling
strongly that sympy needs help and support because of
http://code.google.com/p/sympy/wiki/SymPyCore
Today my cat and grandmother are passed away, but at that time they were
needing constant support and assistance and everything else, and this
could seem just more strange, because at that time I was breaking like
crazy in beetween assisting relatives and fighting for sympy. And I
think you all know it was a hard work to make the whole development
scheme go and to show that it is possible to do nontrivial development
and to achieve progress incrementally in a we-can-work-together way.
Though there are still a lot of room for improvements, I think the task
to show that "evolution is possible" is complete.
----
My journey with computers started at school, when I was 13 - I had not
access to any machine -- pen, paper and basic were my tools then.
Then I had my own ZX Spectrum, which I enjoyed using -->
(we had our own FIDO-like network, disk operating system, C compiler,
etc... In university years I even typed some of my TeX papers on ZX and
translated them on a class computer... overall Speccy was a wonderful
machine and a great learning playground for a lot of people).
--> till the end of 2000 -- after graduating as bachelor and spending
some time in army, parents bought me my first pc.
First time I had trouble to install RedHat Linux 6.2 (because of
non-standard ide controller), that's why I started studying Windows.
And you know, I've came to a thought that "Windows is not the kind of
environment I would like to change my Speccy to." Too much magic, too
much internal inconsistency and dark corners, too complex sometimes with
obscure bug'o'features. That was not for me.
Fortunately, digging through internet helped to install Linux, and a
wonderful world opened to me. I was charmed by UNIX ideas, and
simplicity (now I understand that this is [1], but at that time I was
not understanding it clearly). I learned learned learned ... - it was
like a house for programming - a good house - and it was open and saying
"welcome."
I still believe I was very lucky having a very good book at hand
(written by physicist Kai Petzke btw - [2] is a russian translation of
[3]) to study things and digg them and understand them. Although one
of my friend told me the book was pointless to him, I think the main
value was in giving good starting points and good digging directions for
those who want to learn, and from this point of view, this book is
excellent.
Now I even don't remember when I first started studying and hacking free
software, maybe it was vgetty [4] into which I've hooked my software AON
(russian analogue of Caller ID) decoding, today I can't say.
The main point is that somehow I first started to learn-by-doing as a
hobbyst. Then after we've met with nightbird people ([5], [6]) I had a
wonderful ability to work on several things - general linux, audio
capture/playback, the same for video, working with phone in data mode,
in voice as fax, we even hooked nice IBM ViaVoice speach synthesis
module into our system, and also russian "speaking mouse" _win32_ dll
through wine (sic!), encrypted voluems on raid arrays, custom installer
based on RedHat's anaconda, etc ... wow - this was all possible because
all the building blocks were open, and a young guy like me could just
take them, and study them, and adapt them to own needs, and to build
something new, basing on other's shoulders.
Today I understand that this was a great pleasure for me and that thanks
to nightbird, I had so rare chance to self-educate at so many places,
with so fast pace, that though the project was abandoned later, I
strongly believe it opened doors to free software world to me changed my
life forever.
Serge, Mikhail, I want to say thanks to you. As with everything, first
job is special, and I still miss you, and think of the time we spent
together with nostalgy. It does not that matter C++ or Python -- human
relations is what gives life to everything ...
What I'm trying to show you, that being free for software is important.
If a young guy or anyone else, could take it and study it, and modify it
and share it with others, it's like as in university:
all the knowledge done by previous people is avaliable to students
and if you think of it, you'll understand that as students, we usually
study the knowledge collected and distilled by others for
_thouthands_ years, just in a say 4 years university course.
We are all used to it, but I think this is a miracle, that human being
is made *that* flexible, so that starting from scratch, young he or she
can absorb the giant building of knowledge _easily_, just not
understanding what kind of thing is happening, and thinking of learnt as
of something usual.
Besides humans being flexible, this is all possible only when the
science is open - all knowledge comes for free - it's available for all
people and for good.
Likewise for software, when it comes for free as in free speech - open
and available for studing, modification, sharing - it's like with a good
science, humans absorb it and adapt it, and improve it for good. And a
young man, e.g. like me can study and grow and absorb all the things
done before, and go forward.
Compared to bad science, or locked down or proprietary software, it is a
very good thing!
I'd like to explain better, but now I'm too sleepy, and I have 10
minutes left, and tommorow I have to go to work and concentrate there
...
<so from now on it goes unstructured>
What is important is that the software should be free as in free speech
- one should always be able to:
- run it
- study it
- modify it
- share it
There are mechanisms to legally make contracts with software users,
which protects this freedom, mainly strong copyleft (GPL) and weak
copyleft (LGPL).
From almost the beggining I was talking to Ondrej that I think it's
better to use LGPL for SymPy, that is anyone could be able to build
application or other libraries whichever license they choose (including
proprietary) on top of SymPy, but SymPy should always stays free as in
free speech. Mainly one should be disallowed to "make private
modifications to sympy and keep them secret."
LGPL is a good compromise, and it does not force users of a library into
any license, so why can't it be used.
Why on earth, say I as a hobbyst, spending my spare time, would want the
result be used as a starting ground for closed software? BSD allows it
explicitly, and this is not ok with me.
Actually at my work, With one of my collegues, we've made an
observation, that usually motivated people, who are interested first in
developing interesting things, to achive great result, to care about the
project and it's ecosystem in general, and only then in money, usually
prefer LGPL to BSD, and on contrary side, people who tend to work for
money first, and care less about result, about fitting their development
with others, about achiving good results, pushing harder when needed,
prefer BSD. They usually say that "BSD is the license that companys
prefer, and for which they pay money"
Do you see the pattern?
LGPL, being a fair contract, is good for everyone -->
(e.g. GTK+ is LGPL'ed, and there is a lot of free and proprietary
software which uses it without a problem)
--> is choosen by people who care, whereas BSD is choosen by people who
want money first.
Money is ok, but I even can say that usually who want money first, get
_less_ money than people who do care about the project in the first
place.
Also I can say that in our company we use a lot of LGPL'ed software, and
this is legally 100% ok, and that we even sponsor some LGPL'ed
development, so to me there is just no rational reason why LGPL is not
good for SymPy.
I've failed to win Ondrej's mind, and I think I'll fail to convince most
of you, and it makes me very sad, that so much evident common sence is
not accepted, that I stopped thinking to be like at home with sympy
recently.
Also, when someone is in a deep overwork, it so happens, that there
happens social issue, like e.g. quirelling with wife, after which I've
felt hurt at everyone and decided to quit.
Yes, it was childish, but it shows, that (at least some) good developers
need good support, and also that spare time which can be spend for
either having a rest, going for a walk, for a talk with a human you
love, or either to develop sympy, is _precious_.
For me I just can't afford to spend that _precious_ spare time without
legally protecting the result from abuse.
I don't think this email will be of any use, but in case anyone is
interested, we had a lenghty private email conversation with Ondrej, to
which I'm ok to be opened in case this would be relevant.
I'm sad it turned out to be unstructured - usually I try to achive the
results which I like myself, but I would not have time for it in a
foreseable future.
So, if there is someone who wants to better understand Kirr - you have a
pleanty of raw material now.
Time to go, bye.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy
[2] http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/93146/
[3] http://www.buchkritik.at/kritik.asp?IDX=670
[4] http://mgetty.greenie.net/
[5] http://satsky.spb.ru/
[6] http://www.nightbird.ru/
Ondrej Certik
Let's discuss this on our main list, I am sure we'll get some
interesting feedbacks. I'll start the thread there, so please post
your answers in there.
Ondrej