This mailing-list is getting more and more like the user mailing-list.
A lot of people keep asking questions that do not belong to this mailing-list. It means that the "real" dev messages are lost in a flow of user questions.
This list is for the development of the symfony framework itself rather than general questions about using symfony.
From now on, Pascal Borreli will remind people if they ask a question in the wrong mailing-list. Don't take any offense if we ask you to move your question on the user mailing-list ;)
> This mailing-list is getting more and more like the user mailing-list.
> A lot of people keep asking questions that do not belong to this
> mailing-list. It means that the "real" dev messages are lost in a flow
> of user questions.
> This list is for the development of the symfony framework itself rather
> than general questions about using symfony.
> From now on, Pascal Borreli will remind people if they ask a question
> in the wrong mailing-list. Don't take any offense if we ask you to move
> your question on the user mailing-list ;)
First my apologies as I'm sure I've sinned when it comes to posting
here :-$
Just for clarification, sometimes you have a problem which seems to be
triggered by a bug or design decision in the symfony core, should we
(i.e are we allowed) to ask and post about them here before creating a
ticket in trac?
And where do plugin related questions belong? On the dev list or the
user list?
Thanks,
Marijn
On Feb 3, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Fabien Potencier wrote:
> This mailing-list is getting more and more like the user mailing-list.
> A lot of people keep asking questions that do not belong to this
> mailing-list. It means that the "real" dev messages are lost in a flow
> of user questions.
> This list is for the development of the symfony framework itself
> rather
> than general questions about using symfony.
> From now on, Pascal Borreli will remind people if they ask a question
> in the wrong mailing-list. Don't take any offense if we ask you to
> move
> your question on the user mailing-list ;)
> First my apologies as I'm sure I've sinned when it comes to posting
> here :-$
No problem, the rules were not really enforced before.
> Just for clarification, sometimes you have a problem which seems to be
> triggered by a bug or design decision in the symfony core, should we
> (i.e are we allowed) to ask and post about them here before creating a
> ticket in trac?
It is always better to discuss a problem in the MLs before creating a ticket. It you are unsure about the problem, ask the question to the user mailing-list.
> And where do plugin related questions belong? On the dev list or the
> user list?
That's a very good question. Perhaps it is time to create a plugins mailing-list. What do you think?
> On Feb 3, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Fabien Potencier wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> This mailing-list is getting more and more like the user mailing-list.
>> A lot of people keep asking questions that do not belong to this
>> mailing-list. It means that the "real" dev messages are lost in a flow
>> of user questions.
>> This list is for the development of the symfony framework itself
>> rather
>> than general questions about using symfony.
>> From now on, Pascal Borreli will remind people if they ask a question
>> in the wrong mailing-list. Don't take any offense if we ask you to
>> move
>> your question on the user mailing-list ;)
<fabien.potenc...@symfony-project.com> wrote: > It is always better to discuss a problem in the MLs before creating a > ticket. It you are unsure about the problem, ask the question to the > user mailing-list.
>> And where do plugin related questions belong? On the dev list or the >> user list?
> That's a very good question. Perhaps it is time to create a plugins > mailing-list. What do you think?
I second the idea of a list for plugin development.
We'll have the same issue of distinguishing plugin development from
plugin use, though. People will want to post their "how do I use
sfGuardUser" questions to the plugin-devs list. We might want to add a
plugin-users list as well so there's a clear place for them.
I'm tempted to comment further on the names of the mailing lists, but
the fact is that you can only say much in a few characters. A clear
description of the list's purpose in a signature at the bottom of each
message would help more.
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Pablo Godel <pgo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Fabien Potencier
> <fabien.potenc...@symfony-project.com> wrote:
>> It is always better to discuss a problem in the MLs before creating a
>> ticket. It you are unsure about the problem, ask the question to the
>> user mailing-list.
>>> And where do plugin related questions belong? On the dev list or the
>>> user list?
>> That's a very good question. Perhaps it is time to create a plugins
>> mailing-list. What do you think?
> I second the idea of a list for plugin development.
> This mailing-list is getting more and more like the user mailing-list.
> A lot of people keep asking questions that do not belong to this
> mailing-list. It means that the "real" dev messages are lost in a flow
> of user questions.
> This list is for the development of the symfony framework itself
> rather
> than general questions about using symfony.
> From now on, Pascal Borreli will remind people if they ask a question
> in the wrong mailing-list. Don't take any offense if we ask you to
> move
> your question on the user mailing-list ;)
Tom Boutell wrote: > We'll have the same issue of distinguishing plugin development from > plugin use, though. People will want to post their "how do I use > sfGuardUser" questions to the plugin-devs list. We might want to add a > plugin-users list as well so there's a clear place for them.
Right, as for the main mailing-lists, we need two of them.
> I'm tempted to comment further on the names of the mailing lists, but > the fact is that you can only say much in a few characters. A clear > description of the list's purpose in a signature at the bottom of each > message would help more.
I would rather use the same name as we have for the symfony MLs to avoid confusion.
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Pablo Godel <pgo...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Fabien Potencier >> <fabien.potenc...@symfony-project.com> wrote:
>>> It is always better to discuss a problem in the MLs before creating a >>> ticket. It you are unsure about the problem, ask the question to the >>> user mailing-list.
>>>> And where do plugin related questions belong? On the dev list or the >>>> user list? >>> That's a very good question. Perhaps it is time to create a plugins >>> mailing-list. What do you think? >> I second the idea of a list for plugin development.
I'm not a Symfony developer but I have authored a plugin or two. From
this perspective splitting the list doesn't seem like a good idea (to
me) as there is the issue of a "brain drain." I don't know, but it
seems like a good idea to have all of the development work with
Symfony on one list and the userland stuff on another. The Plugin
list, due to the idiosyncratic nature of plugin development timelines,
seems like it would become a ghost town, whereas Symfony development
is ongoing. It doesn't seem like there is so much traffic on the dev
list to justify creating another, even smaller list. The lists are
already quite small in terms of activity. I've personally asked pretty
simple questions to the users list and failed to get any viable
answers. Also, if you don't split there is no need for further
clarifying and defining what the lists are about. Just a thought from
the other side of the table.
> We'll have the same issue of distinguishing plugin development from
> plugin use, though. People will want to post their "how do I use
> sfGuardUser" questions to the plugin-devs list. We might want to add a
> plugin-users list as well so there's a clear place for them.
> I'm tempted to comment further on the names of the mailing lists, but
> the fact is that you can only say much in a few characters. A clear
> description of the list's purpose in a signature at the bottom of each
> message would help more.
> -Tom
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Pablo Godel <pgo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Fabien Potencier
>> <fabien.potenc...@symfony-project.com> wrote:
>>> It is always better to discuss a problem in the MLs before
>>> creating a
>>> ticket. It you are unsure about the problem, ask the question to the
>>> user mailing-list.
>>>> And where do plugin related questions belong? On the dev list or
>>>> the
>>>> user list?
>>> That's a very good question. Perhaps it is time to create a plugins
>>> mailing-list. What do you think?
>> I second the idea of a list for plugin development.
I don't think there is enough traffic on either list to warrant
splitting out the plugins into their own lists. Having a slow main
list and a dead plugin list doesn't seem like an advantage.
On top of that, you lose the "cross-pollination" of ideas as people
discuss issues with plugins (either development or usage). Seems like
a lose-lose idea.
Just my $0.02.
On Feb 3, 2009, at 10:38 AM, Fabien Potencier wrote:
> Tom Boutell wrote:
>> We'll have the same issue of distinguishing plugin development from
>> plugin use, though. People will want to post their "how do I use
>> sfGuardUser" questions to the plugin-devs list. We might want to
>> add a
>> plugin-users list as well so there's a clear place for them.
> Right, as for the main mailing-lists, we need two of them.
>> I'm tempted to comment further on the names of the mailing lists, but
>> the fact is that you can only say much in a few characters. A clear
>> description of the list's purpose in a signature at the bottom of
>> each
>> message would help more.
> I would rather use the same name as we have for the symfony MLs to
> avoid
> confusion.
> Fabien
>> -Tom
>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Pablo Godel <pgo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Fabien Potencier
>>> <fabien.potenc...@symfony-project.com> wrote:
>>>> It is always better to discuss a problem in the MLs before
>>>> creating a
>>>> ticket. It you are unsure about the problem, ask the question to
>>>> the
>>>> user mailing-list.
>>>>> And where do plugin related questions belong? On the dev list or
>>>>> the
>>>>> user list?
>>>> That's a very good question. Perhaps it is time to create a plugins
>>>> mailing-list. What do you think?
>>> I second the idea of a list for plugin development.
I think we shouldn't split the plugin list, actually I don't think we
should create one at all. For people that are known to symfony the way
our support lists are organized seems quite straightforward but I'm
pretty sure that it isn't that great of a setup for new symfony users.
New users should have as little as possible to choose from in my
opinion (they always doubt, sorry if this isn't the place to post this
but.... I know I do when I'm new to a community). Besides I agree with
the cross pollination argument of Jacob. The only thing I would like
to make an exception for is when there is an issue that is related to
the core of the framework. For example I recently ran into an issue
with logging from the PluginConfiguration class with the event
dispatcher. Perhaps I should have asked first in the user list but to
me it really seemed like a question for the dev list since it is
related to the very core of the framework. Filing a ticket straight
away when it is actually not a bug creates an unnecessary flow of new
tickets in trac...
I guess we should just keep everything as is. Post in the user list
first, with complicated core related questions one could ask on the
dev list later when no answer was obtained in the user list and file
bugs in trac if it simply is left unanswered. That way we keep active
lists and prevent an awful amount of invalid tickets in trac.
> I don't think there is enough traffic on either list to warrant
> splitting out the plugins into their own lists. Having a slow main
> list and a dead plugin list doesn't seem like an advantage.
> On top of that, you lose the "cross-pollination" of ideas as people
> discuss issues with plugins (either development or usage). Seems like
> a lose-lose idea.
> Just my $0.02.
> On Feb 3, 2009, at 10:38 AM, Fabien Potencier wrote:
>> Tom Boutell wrote:
>>> We'll have the same issue of distinguishing plugin development from
>>> plugin use, though. People will want to post their "how do I use
>>> sfGuardUser" questions to the plugin-devs list. We might want to
>>> add a
>>> plugin-users list as well so there's a clear place for them.
>> Right, as for the main mailing-lists, we need two of them.
>>> I'm tempted to comment further on the names of the mailing lists,
>>> but
>>> the fact is that you can only say much in a few characters. A clear
>>> description of the list's purpose in a signature at the bottom of
>>> each
>>> message would help more.
>> I would rather use the same name as we have for the symfony MLs to
>> avoid
>> confusion.
>> Fabien
>>> -Tom
>>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Pablo Godel <pgo...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Fabien Potencier
>>>> <fabien.potenc...@symfony-project.com> wrote:
>>>>> It is always better to discuss a problem in the MLs before
>>>>> creating a
>>>>> ticket. It you are unsure about the problem, ask the question to
>>>>> the
>>>>> user mailing-list.
>>>>>> And where do plugin related questions belong? On the dev list or
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> user list?
>>>>> That's a very good question. Perhaps it is time to create a
>>>>> plugins
>>>>> mailing-list. What do you think?
>>>> I second the idea of a list for plugin development.
I agree that splitting off the plugin lists would not be a great idea. This would just kill activity there and in the end every plugin developer will still post in symfony-devs or symfony-users "because in the plugin list nobody replied".
I do agree with Fabien though that any questions that do not concern development directly should move to the user list.
I do not think we need a plugins list or a plugins development list. We should allow plugin development to be in this list, and plugin use to be in the normal users list. One problem I have seen is a lot of questions go unanswered in the users list. When this happens people tend to come here. If more people would respond in the general users mailing list we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am not the most knowledgeable, but when I see a question in the users list I try to answer it even if it's giving them the link to the book where the answer is found. I know I see the question and think to myself , "well that's stupid did you read the book?", and then I dig up the answer and recommend that if they haven't read the book that they should.
this is a very common problem on most lists where there is a dev and
users list. We need to make sure that people with the knowledge keep
checking and replying in the users list even when they are basic,
repeated questions, it helps in the overall friendliness and
preception of a great community.
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:52 PM, James <thenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do not think we need a plugins list or a plugins development list.
> We should allow plugin development to be in this list, and plugin use
> to be in the normal users list. One problem I have seen is a lot of
> questions go unanswered in the users list. When this happens people
> tend to come here. If more people would respond in the general users
> mailing list we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am not the most
> knowledgeable, but when I see a question in the users list I try to
> answer it even if it's giving them the link to the book where the
> answer is found. I know I see the question and think to myself ,
> "well that's stupid did you read the book?", and then I dig up the
> answer and recommend that if they haven't read the book that they
> should.
> this is a very common problem on most lists where there is a dev and
> users list. We need to make sure that people with the knowledge keep
> checking and replying in the users list even when they are basic,
> repeated questions, it helps in the overall friendliness and
> preception of a great community.
> Pablo
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:52 PM, James <thenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I do not think we need a plugins list or a plugins development list.
> > We should allow plugin development to be in this list, and plugin use
> > to be in the normal users list. One problem I have seen is a lot of
> > questions go unanswered in the users list. When this happens people
> > tend to come here. If more people would respond in the general users
> > mailing list we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am not the most
> > knowledgeable, but when I see a question in the users list I try to
> > answer it even if it's giving them the link to the book where the
> > answer is found. I know I see the question and think to myself ,
> > "well that's stupid did you read the book?", and then I dig up the
> > answer and recommend that if they haven't read the book that they
> > should.
I agree with you and I must say that when I add a question here a get
answer very quickly, contrary to Users group when it very often take a
long time to get answer, if I get any . Sometimes I get stucked in
creating a project because I don't have an answer :(
On 4 Lut, 02:59, Pablo Godel <pgo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> this is a very common problem on most lists where there is a dev and
> users list. We need to make sure that people with the knowledge keep
> checking and replying in the users list even when they are basic,
> repeated questions, it helps in the overall friendliness and
> preception of a great community.
> Pablo
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:52 PM, James <thenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I do not think we need a plugins list or a plugins development list.
> > We should allow plugin development to be in this list, and plugin use
> > to be in the normal users list. One problem I have seen is a lot of
> > questions go unanswered in the users list. When this happens people
> > tend to come here. If more people would respond in the general users
> > mailing list we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am not the most
> > knowledgeable, but when I see a question in the users list I try to
> > answer it even if it's giving them the link to the book where the
> > answer is found. I know I see the question and think to myself ,
> > "well that's stupid did you read the book?", and then I dig up the
> > answer and recommend that if they haven't read the book that they
> > should.
klemens_u wrote:
> +1 for enforcing user-questions to the user mailing list
> -1 for creating plugin lists
> Finally I agree with Pablo. I'll try to to help out on the users list
> more often.
> Klemens
> On Feb 4, 2:59 am, Pablo Godel <pgo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> this is a very common problem on most lists where there is a dev and
>> users list. We need to make sure that people with the knowledge keep
>> checking and replying in the users list even when they are basic,
>> repeated questions, it helps in the overall friendliness and
>> preception of a great community.
>> Pablo
>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:52 PM, James <thenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I do not think we need a plugins list or a plugins development list.
>>> We should allow plugin development to be in this list, and plugin use
>>> to be in the normal users list. One problem I have seen is a lot of
>>> questions go unanswered in the users list. When this happens people
>>> tend to come here. If more people would respond in the general users
>>> mailing list we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am not the most
>>> knowledgeable, but when I see a question in the users list I try to
>>> answer it even if it's giving them the link to the book where the
>>> answer is found. I know I see the question and think to myself ,
>>> "well that's stupid did you read the book?", and then I dig up the
>>> answer and recommend that if they haven't read the book that they
>>> should.
>>> Just my $.02
>>> James
klemens_u wrote:
> +1 for enforcing user-questions to the user mailing list
> -1 for creating plugin lists
> Finally I agree with Pablo. I'll try to to help out on the users list
> more often.
That's great! We need more people taking the time to answer questions on the user mailing-list. To speak for myself, I will try to answer more questions on this mailing-list.
> On Feb 4, 2:59 am, Pablo Godel <pgo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> this is a very common problem on most lists where there is a dev and
>> users list. We need to make sure that people with the knowledge keep
>> checking and replying in the users list even when they are basic,
>> repeated questions, it helps in the overall friendliness and
>> preception of a great community.
>> Pablo
>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:52 PM, James <thenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I do not think we need a plugins list or a plugins development list.
>>> We should allow plugin development to be in this list, and plugin use
>>> to be in the normal users list. One problem I have seen is a lot of
>>> questions go unanswered in the users list. When this happens people
>>> tend to come here. If more people would respond in the general users
>>> mailing list we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am not the most
>>> knowledgeable, but when I see a question in the users list I try to
>>> answer it even if it's giving them the link to the book where the
>>> answer is found. I know I see the question and think to myself ,
>>> "well that's stupid did you read the book?", and then I dig up the
>>> answer and recommend that if they haven't read the book that they
>>> should.
>>> Just my $.02
>>> James
On 4 Feb., 21:51, Fabien Potencier <fabien.potenc...@symfony-
project.com> wrote:
> Ok, I think we reached a consensus and I propose that we don't create a
> new mailing-list for plugins.
> But I think all plugins questions must be on the user mailing-list. What
> do you think?
I associate developing of plugins more with the dev-ML than with user-
ML. In my conception plugins are nearer at the core than creating
apps, modules and so on.
Would it be technical and personal possible to use a moderated ML? To
move messages to another list would keep the lists clean and help the
TOs perhaps more.
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Sven.Wappler <wapp...@wapplersystems.de> wrote:
> On 4 Feb., 21:51, Fabien Potencier <fabien.potenc...@symfony-
> project.com> wrote:
>> Ok, I think we reached a consensus and I propose that we don't create a
>> new mailing-list for plugins.
>> But I think all plugins questions must be on the user mailing-list. What
>> do you think?
> I associate developing of plugins more with the dev-ML than with user-
> ML. In my conception plugins are nearer at the core than creating
> apps, modules and so on.
> Would it be technical and personal possible to use a moderated ML? To
> move messages to another list would keep the lists clean and help the
> TOs perhaps more.
> Question about using available plugins to symfony-users
> IMHO, keep as few ML as possible to avoid confusion.
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Sven.Wappler <wapp...@wapplersystems.de > > wrote:
>> On 4 Feb., 21:51, Fabien Potencier <fabien.potenc...@symfony-
>> project.com> wrote:
>>> Ok, I think we reached a consensus and I propose that we don't
>>> create a
>>> new mailing-list for plugins.
>>> But I think all plugins questions must be on the user mailing- >>> list. What
>>> do you think?
>> I associate developing of plugins more with the dev-ML than with
>> user-
>> ML. In my conception plugins are nearer at the core than creating
>> apps, modules and so on.
>> Would it be technical and personal possible to use a moderated ML? To
>> move messages to another list would keep the lists clean and help the
>> TOs perhaps more.
> klemens_u wrote:
> > +1 for enforcing user-questions to the user mailing list
> > -1 for creating plugin lists
> > Finally I agree with Pablo. I'll try to to help out on the users list
> > more often.
> > Klemens
> > On Feb 4, 2:59 am, Pablo Godel <pgo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> this is a very common problem on most lists where there is a dev and
> >> users list. We need to make sure that people with the knowledge keep
> >> checking and replying in the users list even when they are basic,
> >> repeated questions, it helps in the overall friendliness and
> >> preception of a great community.
> >> Pablo
> >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:52 PM, James <thenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> I do not think we need a plugins list or a plugins development list.
> >>> We should allow plugin development to be in this list, and plugin use
> >>> to be in the normal users list. One problem I have seen is a lot of
> >>> questions go unanswered in the users list. When this happens people
> >>> tend to come here. If more people would respond in the general users
> >>> mailing list we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am not the most
> >>> knowledgeable, but when I see a question in the users list I try to
> >>> answer it even if it's giving them the link to the book where the
> >>> answer is found. I know I see the question and think to myself ,
> >>> "well that's stupid did you read the book?", and then I dig up the
> >>> answer and recommend that if they haven't read the book that they
> >>> should.
> >>> Just my $.02
> >>> James
> > klemens_u wrote:
> > > +1 for enforcing user-questions to the user mailing list
> > > -1 for creating plugin lists
> > > Finally I agree with Pablo. I'll try to to help out on the users list
> > > more often.
> > > Klemens
> > > On Feb 4, 2:59 am, Pablo Godel <pgo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> this is a very common problem on most lists where there is a dev and
> > >> users list. We need to make sure that people with the knowledge keep
> > >> checking and replying in the users list even when they are basic,
> > >> repeated questions, it helps in the overall friendliness and
> > >> preception of a great community.
> > >> Pablo
> > >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:52 PM, James <thenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> I do not think we need a plugins list or a plugins development list.
> > >>> We should allow plugin development to be in this list, and plugin use
> > >>> to be in the normal users list. One problem I have seen is a lot of
> > >>> questions go unanswered in the users list. When this happens people
> > >>> tend to come here. If more people would respond in the general users
> > >>> mailing list we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am not the most
> > >>> knowledgeable, but when I see a question in the users list I try to
> > >>> answer it even if it's giving them the link to the book where the
> > >>> answer is found. I know I see the question and think to myself ,
> > >>> "well that's stupid did you read the book?", and then I dig up the
> > >>> answer and recommend that if they haven't read the book that they
> > >>> should.
> > >>> Just my $.02
> > >>> James
