core feature conclusion
Lukas Kahwe Smith
I really want us to lock down a core feature set ASAP. I think its important that we all define the common ground of must have's so that nobody is disappointed or we end up in disagreements. Of course there might be things some of us want, but that not most of us want. These "nice to have" (or if only very few aka one or two even "niche") features should still be tried to be enabled by the core, but the actual implementation would be left to the people in question. Again we should be clear about this so that people can properly plan out where they want to allocate their resources.
I dont think we can or should proceed with any important decisions (this includes JCR yes/no/abit) until we have nailed this down. Please provide your input on the feature brainstorming page by the end of the week:
http://wiki.github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/feature-brainstorming
I will then try to setup some sort of survey for next week. I welcome feedback on this but my thoughts where I will just make a list with each item on the page. I will send this mail out on Monday as a heads up to give a chance for some last minute feedback or corrects. on Tuesday the voting will then commence for 7 days, where everyone on this list can basically give a rating of -2, -1, 0, +1, +2 for each items. I will then tally up the numbers, but I guess I will also try to do some basic deviation statistics to make it apparent if there were any items where the votes went to the far extremes (aka lots of people voting -2 as well as +2).
I want to do the voting on this mailinglist because I feel its us who will be implementing things. We cannot guarantee that what we want is also what the community in general needs, but I do believe that we will probably get pretty close to those needs when we work on the things we need.
Again, I invite feedback on this stuff.
Once we have this core feature list down, I want to tackle the big questions of principle architecture so please check out the links about JCR, since this seems to be our preferred architecture as of now:
http://wiki.github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/useful-links-about-jcr-and-jackrabbit
Once we have that settled we can start dividing up the work and form teams and get going with coding! Ideally we should get all of this done by the end of August, probably more like mid September, but we should really not slip past end of September imho.
regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
sm...@pooteeweet.org
ryan weaver
Ryan Weaver
Lead Programmer Iostudio, LLC
http://www.sympalphp.org
http://www.thatsquality.com
Twitter: @weaverryan
Jonathan Wage
- Developer UI for rapid CMS application development similar to what you can do with other popular CMS like Drupal where lots of the development is done in the UI and less in the code. This widens the scope of the type of developer that can use the CMS from drupal type developers to senior web application architects.
- Clear separation of developer UI and Client/Editor UI and never mixing the two.
Lukas Kahwe Smith
On 04.08.2010, at 16:33, ryan weaver wrote:
> I want to do the voting on this mailinglist because I feel its us who will be implementing things. We cannot guarantee that what we want is also what the community in general needs, but I do believe that we will probably get pretty close to those needs when we work on the things we need.
Actually I could alternatively also create a wiki page "feature options" where people can fix things Monday/Tuesday, but which shall not be edited content-wise after Tuesday and then we can either do the voting via the mailinglist or on another wiki page "feature voting". Might actually be nicer so that later comers can see where we are coming from more easily.
Lukas Kahwe Smith
On 04.08.2010, at 17:58, Jonathan Wage wrote:
> I added 2 items at the bottom that I think are critical for a CMS in the PHP language to be successful across the masses:
> • Developer UI for rapid CMS application development similar to what you can do with other popular CMS like Drupal where lots of the development is done in the UI and less in the code. This widens the scope of the type of developer that can use the CMS from drupal type developers to senior web application architects.
ah good one. i added a feature request to specifically not include (or at least not make this a focus). but thats fine, there will be stuff where people will be on both ends of the spectrum. we just have to make sure that we come to sensible agreements in the end .. just doing everything will not fly, making the core to small will not fly either etc.
Lukas Kahwe Smith
ok sorry about that .. got a bit side tracked.
i just put together a summary of all the various features I had seen on the wiki, on IRC etc.:
http://wiki.github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/feature-voting
however Thibault suggested on IRC we should have actually used "user voice" and I tend to agree. so I registered us:
http://symfonycmf.uservoice.com
i figure its probably best if we all start moving the content from the feature brainstorming/voting page over there. please try to prevent redundant items and then we can start commenting there and voting.
hope this is ok for everybody.
Lukas Kahwe Smith
right now we can only give people 10 votes. we would need to move to the "tin" plan which is 19USD per month to be able to increase this number. i guess thats a bit premature to buy this until we really know we want to use it. then again there is a 15 day trail for any of the plans it seems .. might be enough to pull through this round of voting once we have all the items we want to vote in the system. if that went well we can decide if we want to continue using this system or not.
i also realized that we could in theory also use the github issue tracker. afaik it also support voting.
Lukas Kahwe Smith
after a quick poll on all three of us on IRC we decided to indeed drop the user voice idea and instead use the github issue tracker. So please everybody take the items most dear to you from the feature brainstorming [1] and voting [2] pages and add them to the issue tracker [3]. Try not to create redundant tickets. Please do this ASAP, so that we can get to the voting process as soon as possible (ideally no later than this weekend).
As always .. please shot if you are totally against the proposed approach. Sorry for my indecisiveness and back and forth.
regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
sm...@pooteeweet.org
[1] http://wiki.github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/feature-brainstorming
[2] http://wiki.github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/feature-voting
[3] http://github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/issues
Lukas Kahwe Smith
Seems like a lot of stuff from the brainstorming pages is still missing. No longer relevant?
Also a closed a few tickets as duplicate, though in some of the cases I copied some of the content over to the ticket I left open.
Right now I only see two tickets that probably still should get merged:
http://github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/issues#issue/16
http://github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/issues#issue/17
Anyway, please make sure all the things you are about are in the ticket system. Right now its fine to have tickets that are "just" goals, but they should be concrete and self explanatory. For example the following ticket imho isnt too helpful:
http://github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/issues#issue/9
I will spend some time tomorrow to go through things once more, so that we should be read to vote starting Monday.
As always, please raise your voice if you have concerns, feedback, hate mail :)
Bastian Feder
Hoi,
I just took the liberty and created tickets for topics written on the
GitHub feature brainstorming page
(http://wiki.github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/feature-brainstorming)
which I support and where not listed in the list of tickets.
Happy voting
Bastian (aka Lapistano)
Lukas Kahwe Smith
Sorry again .. things are moving slower than I want. However the good news this is partially because more people have been active adding in new tickets, commenting etc. Here is the current state:
http://github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/issues
For those who entered tickets you should note that I merged a lot of tickets, folded comments into the ticket body etc. So please review that everything is still the way you like it. For those who already voted, please also review that your vote still applies.
The idea for the voting is that in this time frame you can still add comments, but the voting will take place on the topic/body of the ticket and therefore there should no longer be changes to the topic/body. The voting will finish a week after the call for a vote. Also note that since you can only vote in favor, the key thing is that enough people participate and that these people also try to examine everything so that we can get a feeling for how relatively important something is. Also note for example the tickets for inline and admin panel based editing. Depending on the number of votes we might decide to do either one .. or both.
After this week we might still have areas that are not clear, but hopefully we will have at least a bunch cleared up. So we might have to do a second round, we might have to discuss trouble stuff etc.
IMPORTANT:
I would like to get a quick roll call if everybody feels happy with the current state. What I am looking for is at least a handful of people saying: go a head its voting time and no person saying no no no I still need to change something.
regards,
Lukas
ryan weaver
Ryan Weaver
Lead Programmer Iostudio, LLC
http://www.sympalphp.org
http://www.thatsquality.com
Twitter: @weaverryan
Bastian Feder
looks good 4 me to start voting.
thx 4 your efforts
Bastian
David Buchmann
Hash: SHA1
hi,
i created issues for my brainstorming items that where still missing.
it seems we have quite a lot of issues now. how do people feel, can we
close submission of new items for the initial goals? we are talking
about basic goals for a first release. of course, everything has to be
built in a way that you can extend it for your specific needs. so we
only need the core features / topics here.
we should all help to clean the issues up: merge issues that are the
same and clarify the description so that we all know what we are voting
on. if issues are fuzzy and everybody interprets them his/her way, we do
not find out if we have consensus or not.
cheers,david
- --
Liip AG // Agile Web Development // T +41 26 422 25 11
CH-1700 Fribourg // PGP 0xA581808B // www.liip.ch
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Lukas Kahwe Smith
On 17.08.2010, at 15:15, David Buchmann wrote:
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>
> hi,
>
> i created issues for my brainstorming items that where still missing.
> it seems we have quite a lot of issues now. how do people feel, can we
> close submission of new items for the initial goals? we are talking
> about basic goals for a first release. of course, everything has to be
> built in a way that you can extend it for your specific needs. so we
> only need the core features / topics here.
>
> we should all help to clean the issues up: merge issues that are the
> same and clarify the description so that we all know what we are voting
> on. if issues are fuzzy and everybody interprets them his/her way, we do
> not find out if we have consensus or not.
yeah lots of stuff was added since i thought i wrapped things up on sunday. again this is good .. but it needs cleanup. i will try to do another round tomorrow during the day.
Lukas Kahwe Smith
On 17.08.2010, at 15:15, David Buchmann wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> hi,
>
> i created issues for my brainstorming items that where still missing.
> it seems we have quite a lot of issues now. how do people feel, can we
> close submission of new items for the initial goals? we are talking
> about basic goals for a first release. of course, everything has to be
> built in a way that you can extend it for your specific needs. so we
> only need the core features / topics here.
>
> we should all help to clean the issues up: merge issues that are the
> same and clarify the description so that we all know what we are voting
> on. if issues are fuzzy and everybody interprets them his/her way, we do
> not find out if we have consensus or not.
>
just finished another clean up spree.
Lukas Kahwe Smith
ok the time is now. i think we are complete enough to move to the voting phase. please do not modify the topics or bodies of tickets (ideally also do not add new tickets). feel free to comment, however note again that the voting should be done on the ticket topic/body. please complete the voting on sunday evening. again since you can only vote +1, make sure you review all tickets, but only vote on the one you find important enough to become core features that should define our architecture. of course even stuff that doesn't get voted in in this round might make it into the final version either because it turns out to be easy to implement in core, or via some extension.
if any ticket turns out to be problematic or something turns out to be missing, we can address this after this initial voting period. ok clear? lets go!
regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
m...@pooteeweet.org
David Buchmann
Hash: SHA1
thanks a lot lukas for your efforts. happy voting everybody :-)
- --
Liip AG // Agile Web Development // T +41 26 422 25 11
CH-1700 Fribourg // PGP 0xA581808B // www.liip.ch
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Lukas Kahwe Smith
Just a reminder, voting is in progress:
http://github.com/symfony-cmf/symfony-cmf/issues#sort=votes
The top items have 16 votes, but that seems a bit low to me given the large number of people who have expressed an interested in the Symfony CMF.
regards,
Lukas
Lukas Kahwe Smith
ok we got a few more votes in. i guess i never really clarified the voting period. in most emails i talked about a 1 week period which would mean that voting will last until the 25th. at the same time it seems that the order hasnt really changed much from what i can see. a few new tickets were created during the voting period. some seem redundant, some are good additions. however i don't think they would have any affect in the more general architecture discussion and this to me is the key thing to address next.
personally i am a bit surprised how few votes some things and how many others got, but all the more reason for us to have done this voting process to sort out our priorities. so what i would like to ask from all of you is keep an eye on the voting results, but ideally mentally prepare your thoughts on what these results mean to you all in terms of architecture. obviously the idea of using the JCR spec is on the table, but as we always said depending on the out come of the voting we might discover that we need to decide which way to go. i would like to get the discussion started on Wednesday (*).
also i should note if anyone thinks there was something very controversial which they need to clear up before we have the architecture discussion. or something important was missing (for example some of you might feel those new tickets do in fact bring up areas that would be important to decide on before discussion the architecture) make sure to raise your voice so that we dont jump into the architecture discussion before having a good basis.
regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
sm...@pooteeweet.org
(*) do note that I will be going into surgery (ACL reconstruction) on thursday .. i should have internet in the hospital but not sure yet how actively I will be participating in the discussion, but there are plenty of smart people on this list so talk away without me.
Kris Wallsmith
--
Lukas Kahwe Smith
On 23.08.2010, at 22:01, Kris Wallsmith wrote:
> So, when does the voting period end? I just got back from holiday…
on the evening of the 24th. dont care about timezones although we do have the full range on this list .. from .NZ to California, to Europe :)
Jonathan Wage
Pablo Godel
super easy, I was looking for something more "difficult" :)
Pablo
--
Pablo Godel
ServerGrove Networks
http://servergrove.com/