Quadcopter build advice

[David Vandenberg]

Hey Guys,

 

As some of you who I met last night already know, I’m in the process of building a quadcopter.

So far I’ve just done a lot of research and have ordered a frame. I’ve kind of selected most of my other parts, which I’d like to get some input on before putting through the order.

I’m going to try to order as many parts as possible through MultiWiiCopter.com, as I think they really put a lot of effort into their product descriptions and supporting information… therefore I really trust that their chosen gear will perform and go the distance.

However, I’m very open to suggestions for alternatives if they would improve the build.

 

I’ll be bringing this into the space in the coming weeks to work on.

I want to order all the parts ASAP, so please let me know if you think any of my parts are not up to scratch so I can amend as necessary.

 

 

Phase 1 – Basic quadcopter build:

 

Frame:

Bumblebee 55cm carbon fibre frame ($155 from eBay)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__24713__Bumblebee_Carbon_Fiber_Quadcopter_Frame_550mm.html

I like the look of this one. It’s a big frame, carbon fibre, and all the individual parts are widely available.

This will come in handy so I can easily get extra brackets etc for mounting payload, customisations and breakages.

Most of all I just like that it looks like an intelligent drone with eyes.. I’ll stick some LED clusters in there to make the eyes light up.

 

 

 

Flight Controller:

DJI Naza with GPS unit ($415 from MultiWiiCopter)

http://www.multiwiicopter.com/products/naza-imu-cpu-45mm-dji

I like the altitude and GPS hold features of the Naza, plus the return to home failsafe seems to be a great feature. I also like fact that it’s a neat plastic box with everything nicely labelled.

In the future I may upgrade to the OpenPilot Revolution board, but it’s not available yet and the Naza seems to be the best affordable alternative.

 

 

 

Motors:

MT2216-12 800kv Motor Tiger T-Motor Multicopter series - 88g 180w ($179 for 4 from MultiWiiCopter)

http://www.multiwiicopter.com/products/mt2216-12-800kv-motor-tiger

This is where I start to get a bit unsure. I’m not sure how powerful I need the motors to be.

The T-Motors are much more expensive than the CarbonBird motors that MultiWii stocks, but I don’t like the red colour.

I’m going for an ominous black military look here J

 

 

ESCs:

ESC CarbonBird 18Amp MultiCopter ESC 4S double heatsink JST ($66 for 4 from WultiWii)

http://www.multiwiicopter.com/products/esc-carbonbird-18amp-multicopter

Again, I get a bit unsure here. Common sense suggests that because they’re so cheap that I should get ESCs with higher amp capacity.

However, they do start getting big and I read somewhere that you shouldn’t get more than you need to drive your motors.

As I’m unsure whether I need to go bigger with the motors, maybe I need to upspec these??

 

 

ESC Programmer:

ESC HobbyWing Program Card for FlyFun ESC ($9.95 – MultiWii)

http://www.multiwiicopter.com/products/esc-hobbywing-program-card-for-flyfun-esc

Not sure if this will even work with the above ESCs

 

 

Props:

High RPM Props 8"x4" CW/CCW - triples - Set of 4 – 8040 ($9.60 – MultiWii)

http://www.multiwiicopter.com/products/high-rpm-props-8x4-cw-ccw-triples-set-of-4-8040

Went for these mainly because I read that triple props are more stable.

 

 

Radio:

Futaba 8J 2.4GHz 8Ch Computer Radio System - Mode 2 ($288 – MultiWii)

http://www.multiwiicopter.com/products/futaba-8j-mode-2-radio

The one thing I’m unsure of here is how I will control the pan/tilt camera gimble.

In the future I’ll bind the pan/tilt to the head tracker of the FPV goggles, but in the meantime I’m not sure if the 8j has 2 spare analog controls for the pan/tilt. And even if it does, 2 separate controls seem unintuitive to me.. it really needs another stick. How do people normally control these?

 

 

Power Distribution:

Power Distribution board - Voltair - Fully Assembled - XT 60 Amp 7 JST   ($19.50 – MultiWii)

http://www.multiwiicopter.com/products/voltair-fully-assembled-xt-60-amp-7-jst

I don’t think I can go too wrong with this one.. I just need to get all the right connectors for everything.

 

Batteries:

ZIPPY Flightmax 8000mAh 3S1P 30C (AUS Warehouse) ($47 – HobbyKing)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__19530__ZIPPY_Flightmax_8000mAh_3S1P_30C_AUS_Warehouse_.html

I find the LiPo battery specs a bit confusing, but my basic understanding is that 3s and 4s is generally the best for multicopters.

The c rating is basically how fast they can pump out the power, and mAh is the energy capacity.

Seems to me that the short flight times of quads, the bigger mAh the better, but the weight varies greatly and can add 50% to the weight of the entire copter, so obviously much of the power is wasted on carrying itself.

4S batteries seem to be much more expensive. Unless you need to pump out tonnes of power (heavy payload?), is there any point to going for 4S??

These batteries are currently out of stock at HK Australian warehouse.. I might need to settle for 5800mAh if they don’t come in soon.

 

 

Charger:

Turnigy 4x6S 400W Lithium Polymer Battery Charger ($119.99 – HobbyKing)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18812__Turnigy_4x6S_400W_Lithium_Polymer_Battery_Charger.html

I want to use multiple batteries, so a multi-charger seems logical. There is some controversy over safety of various chargers though.

I like that this one has the controls adjacent to each charging port, reducing the chance of setting the wrong one, with potentially dire consequences.

I’ve also ordered some safety bags from HK. I have no idea what all this balance charging is all about.. Is there anything else I need?

 

 

12v Power Supply:

??

I haven’t quite selected my power supply yet. There are lots available from Jaycar etc, so I’m not desperate.

But If anyone has any suggestions here, they would be much appreciated.

 

Pan/Tilt Camera Mount:

Gimbal for Gopro Aeroxcraft (107 EUR – FPV4ever)

http://www.fpv4ever.com/en/pan-tilt/835-gimbal-for-gopro-aeroxcraft.html

I think I can hook this up to the Naza, but not sure how the radio will control it.

 

 

Battery Monitoring:

Quanum 2.4Ghz Telemetry System (Volt/Amp/Temp/mAh) V3.0 ( - HobbyKing)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10343__Quanum_2_4Ghz_Telemetry_System_Volt_Amp_Temp_mAh_V3_0.html

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11251__Quanum_2_4Ghz_Telemetry_System_Temp_Amp_add_on.html

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10896__Quanum_2_4Ghz_Flexible_Antenna_.html

Not sure if this is overkill.

 

 

 

Phase 2 – FPV setup:

 

This will be further down the track. I’ve selected a few of the parts, but I won’t go into too much detail yet.

It will probably be something along the lines of:

·         Goggles (obviously), running on a 5.8ghz radio.

·         OSD – hopefully I can use the DJI Wookong OSD, which would mean no need for extra sensors, otherwise an EagleEyes with sensors

·         Use the live video out of the GoPro camera rather than a separate camera.

·         Hook up Pan/Tilt to goggle head tracker.

 

My other hairbrained idea down the track is to rig up an old Thrustmaster HOTAS system to a radio and use that to control the copter.

I’ll probably get used to using little levers by then, so it may never happen.

 

 

 

 

David Vandenberg

Director | EngineRoom

Director | Fishburners

e – da...@enginerm.com

m – 0416 16 32 64

 

[David Vandenberg]

Damn.. my images didn't show up inline.
Oh well, you can see them at the bottom anyway.

[Angus Turner]

They appeared inline for me :)
Thanks
Angus Turner
angus...@gmail.com

On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 10:13 PM, David Vandenberg <da...@thelab.com.au> wrote:

Damn.. my images didn't show up inline.
Oh well, you can see them at the bottom anyway.

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[David Vandenberg]

Ah, you must be getting all the emails.. The Google Groups web interface splits them out as attachments at the bottom of the message.

[Allie Paterson]

Hi David,

It looks like you have really done your research :)

A lot of the folks at the space have quadcopters - many bespoke designs too so I'm sure you will get lots of good advice!

I've got a couple of comments on your choices, based on my limited experience (2 quadcopters and a number of fixed wing drones).

Flight Controller: Have you considered Arducopter?  I ask as it is open source, backed by a very active community so very robust with lots of great features.  Also gives you lots of options to mod your setup - lighting, scripting and hardware add-ons.  Also lots of folks at RnD have Arducopter so good advice available there.

Motors: you are not too likely to go wrong picking a motor, though the more powerful the bigger a load you will be able to carry.  I'm using 800kv motors on my quad and have no problems carrying it's weight (1.7kg) plus quite a bit more.

ESCs: 18A is fine - you could even go to 20A.  An over-rated ESC for a motor will just mean the ESC doesn't get as hot.  Something to think about for quads since typically the ESC doesn't get the airflow they would on a fixed a/c.

ESC programmer: you probably won't need this, as default programming for ESCs is usually fine.  Though at $10 you may as well have it and not need it.  I bought one when I build my first quad - still haven't used it.

Props: I don't think it really matters too much between triple and double props for stability.  No matter the type you will find they are unbalanced and need to be adjusted.  Every prop I have bought has required balancing - all you need ot do it spin it on a piece of horizontal wire to see if it has a bias towards one prop then put a little sticky tape on the other side.  I can help you with this at the space (plus I have a prop balanced that makes it a bit easier).

Radio:  I have a futaba radio though it has 8 analog channels and 2 digital channels.  This is something to think carefully about, as you want to make sure you have enough channels for all your future modifications.  For FPV Arducopter you will want something like the following:
Channels 1-4: flight control (rudder, throttle, aileron, elevator)
Channels 5-6: FPV camera control
Channels 7-8: Autopilot functions (you can use analog channels to control these and assign to switches on your radio)
Channels 9-: Lighting control? mechanism control (eg drop something, take a picture, fire a missile etc)

8 channels will get you in the air for FPV.  It *looks* like your radio should have a trainer port - this is where you will add in your head-tracking module for camera gimbal control for FPV.

Battery: the most complex bit about designing your quad is matching motor/ prop/ battery.  There are good utilities on the web (look in rcgroups for lots of advice and links), though in my experience you don't have to be exact in spite of what some people say.  Having said that it is possible to push your battery too hard resulting in a mid-air fire, or pushing your ESC or motor too hard and frying it.  Effectively 3s = 11.1V and 4s = 14.8v (each cell is worth 3.7v) and as you add voltage you have a proportional increase in current and/or heat generated (since Voltage = Current x Resistance).  Hence going from 3s to 4s means a bigger ESC and is capable of running a bigger motor.  A smaller prop on a motor will mean it spins faster and may overheat, a bigger prop spins slower but too big and it will strain the motor too.  I use 3s batteries with a 20A ESC on 800kv motors with a 8x9 prop (if I recall correctly) and get about 15-20min flight times, though generally I am not in the air that long.

Charger: A good balance charger is essential, and I think it is a good idea to have one or more safety bags.  Lipo batteries can fail for lots of reasons, but typically it is because they are charged or discharged incorrectly (charge too fast or to long, or discharge too fast or too far), and when they fail they often do so with vigorous heat and flame.  Dropping or puncturing a lipo can cause a failure too.  I have one 4000mAh lipo that has started swelling in spite of taking all precautions, which can happen sometimes.  I generally only charge in the bag or somewhere where a fire will not catch to the surrounds, and never leave lipos to charge unmonitored.  The balance charger monitors the voltage level of each battery cell and can charge each separately to make sure you get full battery potential without risking overcharging a cell and the battery failing.

Telemetry: If you go the Arducopter path there is a good (inexpensive) option for telemetry which allows clever things like controlling your copter from your PC - even using a joystick as you indicated.  Though if all you want is battery monitoring just add in a cheap battery voltage alarm such as http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__7223__Hobby_King_Battery_Monitor_3S.html

My quad setup:
Frame: JDrones quad (aluminium struts)
Motors: 800kv not sure which - they came from JDrones too
ESC: 20A
Props: 8 x 9 i think
Controller: Arducopter 2.5, GPS and Ultrasonic sensor
Telemetry: 3DR radio telemetry (433MHz I think)
OSD: MinimOSD
Camera: GoPro (video sent thru transmitter as well as recording locally)
Video Tx: ImmersionRC 5.8GHz 600w
Goggles: Fat Shark 5.8GHz (though I am using an Immersion RC diversity receiver for better quality video)
Battery monitor: the HK 3s one above
Battery: I use a ~4000mAh for powering the quad and ~1000 for powering the video
Plus: LED light strips for orientation

There is some video of my setup at http://aliciapaterson.com/wordpress/category/fpv/

Good luck with the build - its one of the most fun parts of getting into Quads!

Allie

[Gav]

David, looks like you've done your research a lot, and +1 to everything Allie said.

I've got an ArduPilotMega 2.0 on the wall that I've yet to use in anger. If you want to borrow it for a weekend to try out you're most welcome to. 

Cheers,

Gavin 

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[Max Nippard]

Those parts all look ok at a glance. For motors I know many people like the stuff from rctimer.com too. I just use cheap hacker clones from hobbyking. 

Two blade props are a little more efficient and easier to balance but tree blades are favored by some.  

I'm also in the openpilot camp so I won't recommend ardupilot. I don't have experience of the Naza except hearing good things about it.  It still has problems like all the controllers do. 

For a radio the turnigy 9x plus a frsky module with telemetry is worth looking at. 

e – da...@enginerm.com

m – 0416 16 32 64

 

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[Iain Chalmers]

A couple of things that jump out to me:

The 180W motors with 18A escs on 3S. If I thought I was going to be carrying a payload that'd get close to maxing out that power, I'd probably prefer a little more headroom on the escs. Either higher amp ratings or jump to 4s batteries. I see "rules of thumb" tat recommend at least 5A more capacity than your maximum expected load.

Secondly, this: http://www.ecalc.ch/xcoptercalc_e.htm reckons you'll need 80% throttle to hover at 1000g all up weight with those motors and props on 3S (which is kinda borderline on having enough headroom for stable control). 2 blade 10x4.7 drop that to only 47%, or sticking with the 8x4s and jumping to 4S batteries means you'd hover at 45% throttle. Unless you think you can keep everything under 1kg, you'll probably want to do one of those two changes.

big

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[David Vandenberg]

Wow, some great feedback guys, keep it coming!

@Allie - great to see a girl getting her nerd on :)
Re: arducopter.. I think I'll stick with Naza for the first build. There are so many variables already that I'd rather start with a simple and reliable core. I definitely see the benefits of an open source community. Being built on arduino is also very attractive as I want to start working on another arduino project, so it might be a useful stepping stone. If the OpenPilot Revolution board isn't available in the near future, I may well start tinkering with arducopter.
Thanks for the long response. There's a lot of good info in there.

@gav thanks for the offer on borrowing the ArduPilotMega. I'll keep that in mind when I'm in next.

@max yeah I'm leaning back to double props again now. Using the calculator Big suggested has left me more informed on that side of things.

@big - That calculator is really useful. I've spent a bit of time tweaking things and it's great to see the effects of changing out various components on lifting capacity, flight time, power draw etc..
Really useful learning experience.. It's made me go back and rethink a few things, particularly the props which have much more effect on the build than I realised.

So from the feedback so far, I'm considering the following changes:

• Motors - need to be a tad more powerful. Maybe T-Motor 2814-10
• ESCs - Going to upgrade to 30-40a.
  
• Props - Bigger, twin fin props seem to be the better choice. More efficient and powerful.
• Radio - I need to look into perhaps geting more than 8 channels. I don't want to spend too much on a radio upfront though.
• Battery - I may upgrade to 4s. This will depend on how I tweak the other components. I'd rather avoid the additional cost of 4s if possible.

On another note.. since Allie mentioned the joystick idea again, I thought I'd give a quick update on my progress with investigating that option.
After a bit of searching, I can see that I'm not the first to consider this. There are 2 primary options that I've discovered:

1. USB to trainer port adapter from PC - allows mapping of a windows HID device to PPM trainer channels. Useful and no hacking required, but requires a PC to sit in the middle for control (eg auto-update while flying in FPV could be bad)
   http://www.flytron.com/programmers/56-compufly-usbtoppm-converter.html
   
2. Arduino Nano directly wired to joystick pots & switches - sits inside the joystick, hardwired to all the controls. Requires destructive work to the joystick and a bunch of soldering etc, but provides a good solid-state solution. This is my favoured option right now. Again, it's down the track, but I already have one of these sitting around - http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x52.html - and I don't really mind destroying it as it's been gathering dust for a couple of years.
   http://www.ianjohnston.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30:project-rc-ppm-trainer-port-joystick
   

I used to use the Saitek stick above for copter flying in FPS games.. actually the first Battlefield 1942 Desert Combat mod, which had Apache copters that were notoriously difficult to control without the correct gear.
I find that that flying with a stick to control pitch, roll and yaw, with a big throttle yoke is very simple and natural. The yaw is the 3D axis on the stick (ie twisting around the vertical Z axis), so the controls are very intuitive like you're holding a stick on the top of the copter and pushing/rotating it where you want it to go.

I really love the heavy-duty Thrustmaster HOTAS gear, but unfortunately only the cheaper plastic ones have the 3D axis on the stick.

[Iain Chalmers]

On 19/11/2012, at 4:15 PM, David Vandenberg wrote:

> Wow, some great feedback guys, keep it coming!

Can I advise that you break this project down into small, individually testable stages.

First get a quadcopter flying with regular rc gear and as much off-the-shelf componentry as makes sense for you.

Don't try to get fpv video running at the same time. Leave that for once you've got some experience flying the quadcopter.

Definitely don't start trying to interface Windows HID devices through a PC or Arduino and flying via that until you're completely comfortable flying it without all that. (I'd probably not want to go down that path without someone else who can fly on the trainer controls waiting to take over and attempt to land safely when the joystick-pc-radio setup doesn't behave exactly as intended).

Trying to get all of that working at once at the same time as learning to fly the quadcopter and tune the controller/pid-loops, is almost guaranteed to fail.

(I'm in the middle of step 1, learning to fly and tune controller boards. My fpv gear is waiting for me to stop breaking quite so many props each time I venture out...)

Big

[David Vandenberg]

Thanks John,

Yeah the quad will be 2.2kg when fully loaded with battery.
The xCopterCalc was immensely helpful and it took a lot of investigation to find the right motor. There was only one T-Motor up to the task - the MT4008-12 600kv, so I'm going with that.
You're right, the props were way underspecced. I wasn't aware of the effect the various sizes and types had on the lifting power. Again, the calculator educated me on that one.

I ended up ordering most of my parts last night:

·         Frame: Bumblebee carbon fibre 55cm

·         Controller: DJI Naza with GPS

·         Battery: Zippy 4S1P 30C 8000mah (845g) *

·         Motors: T-Motor MT4008-12 600kv (pancake style) *

·         ESCs: 40a Hobbywing (no BEC)*

·         Props: 11x5 Graupner *

·         TxRx: Futaba 8J

·         Battery monitor: Quanum

* changes from original spec

The XcopterCalc says I’ll get about 16mins hover time and 7mins at full throttle with this setup.

Hover throttle is 60%.

 

What do you guys think?

 

The ESCs are these: http://www.multiwiicopter.com/products/esc-hobbywing-40amp-multicopter-opto-with-all-connectors

They’re from MultiWiiCopter, and have no BEC. Quinton assured me that they weren’t required.

“Large copters dont use piggybacked 5v becs - the 5v (for the electronics CPU )  comes from the main uBEC on the NAZA (in your case)”

 

I’ve already ordered my batteries, but I’m curious what you meant re: using 2x5000mah.

I’m assuming these would be hooked up in parallel? Is it wise to do this? (I have no idea)

It seems it would be harder to monitor battery levels with 2 batteries?

[David Vandenberg]

Thanks Iain,

Yeah I'm definitely not trying to do FPV or other controllers until I get the copter going properly.
That's why I had it under Phase 2 in the original post.
I'm not trying to do that stuff from the start, but I included it in the post as I thought it might be useful for people to see where I'm eventually going with it and maybe have some discussion in the meantime.

David Vandenberg
Director | EngineRoom
Director | Fishburners

[Allie Paterson]

I agree - though FPV looks like it would be a great and easy way to fly rc (especially if you are a highly accomplished PC pilot like me), in practice it is like trying to walking around looking at the world through a door peephole. 

I'm also working on getting confident just flying the copter and losing the fear of stuffing up.  Then I'll spend more time on the goggles...

[Iain Chalmers]

Yeah, it's good to know where you're headed - no point building a "learner quadcopter" which'll only lift 1200g if you know you want to lift 2kg or 2.5kg pretty soon down the track.

But baby stepsis the way to go...

big

[Max Nippard]

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012, Iain Chalmers wrote:

Yeah, it's good to know where you're headed - no point building a "learner quadcopter" which'll only lift 1200g if you know you want to lift 2kg or 2.5kg pretty soon down the track.

I disagree with this, just get flying with the cheapest, ruggedest thing you can get.  I know how tempting it is to spec out everything before hand but it will most likely get very beaten up as you learn to fly. I spent ages choosing parts for my first quad and the only part I still use is the frame which uses sacrificial aluminium arms. 

Also from experience the lighter it is the nicer it is to fly. 

[David Vandenberg]

Well if someone wants to loan me their cheap quad ;P

Yeah I know I'm charging at this like a bull at a gate.. That's generally the way I do things, and I know it's not always the smartest way.
I do have an AR Drone, but it's a toy and the controls don't have any relevance to flying with a radio Tx.
I did just take delivery of my USB dongle for AeroSIM today though. I still don't have my Tx, but I plan on clocking up a little airtime in there to ensure I'm not totally clueless when I go on a maiden flight.

I could go and build a little throw-away, but I'm impatient.

That all said, I wasn't too worried about catastrophic crashes initially as long as I'm careful. That's one of the benefits of the Naza controller. Flying in the stablised modes allows you to fly assisted and having to balance less axes.
Well, that's my novice and possibly naive perception of it though.

[Max Nippard]

I did the same thing David, I think everyone on this list would also do it that way too. :-) Just thought it was worth mentioning.

I agree about the AR Drone not being like flying a quad at all.

To learn to fly after the sim I bought a Blade mcx four channel micro heli that has similar controls to a stabilised quad (albeit slower).

It was so light (28g) that it rarely broke even though I crashed it every time I flew it for the first few weeks.

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[John888]

I'm with Max re. crashing as baby steps in learning to fly.

Graupner props are expensive (to break) too. Maybe consider a need for at least about a dozen pairs of props as consumables when learning.

Gemfan carbon/nylon ones are pretty cheap and produce very good performance, as long as you balance them. The carbon/nylon's are about 4x stiffer than regular Gemfan props.

Some 11 x 4.7's are worth thinking about (for a machine up to about 2kg's). Because they're slow flyers, you'll probably get more lift out of them than Graupners.

11 inch props are probably on the border re. enough power with 650kv motors. Personally, I'd be wanting more lift.

I just build a machine with an approx 2.5kg take-off weight using some beefy 900Kv Sunnyskys (think about 370ish watts). They're a bit heavier but bench test to about 1.5kg's of lift each with cheap 11 inch props.

Wood props might be worth considering too.

David, you're investing quite a bit of cash, maybe build a thrasher quad too? You can set it up so one flight controller (& receiver) can be swapped out between the two.

I did that for a long time, before buying extra flight controllers.

Can probably build a thrasher quad for about $150. It's basically just a frame, some motors and ESC's (all wired up). Tasmanian oak arms or aluminium channel from Bunnings works, I've made lots of frames from Bunnings raw materials.

I was impatient and built my own frame faster than it took to order one off the net, when learning.

Agree with a previous comment re. rctimer motors too. I had some 750Kv ones from there (about 185w from memory), they were fine with 10 inch props on a thrasher machine, which shouldn't be as heavy.

It seems as though your frame from HK might come with motors in the kit, maybe use them on a thrasher machine?

A second machine is good for a backup if you need to get something time or location critical done.

Re. FPV, I'd suggest wait till you've done about 10 hrs of flying. It's a whole other world.

+1 re. differences with an AR Drone, they're very different to fly.

Re. batteries, generally speaking, I'd rather 2 x 4000mAh batteries than 1 x 8000mAh. 

Quite a lot of concentration is needed to fly, having a short break and swapping out a 4000mAh battery isn't a bad idea - rather than one long flight.

You'll probably find it cheaper to buy 2 x smaller batteries than 1 x 8000mAh battery too, not to mention saving about 300ish grams in take-off weight.

Another thing is that buying multiple cheaper batteries is a good idea when learning, less to lose through mishaps and you can afford spares. I usually carry at least 5 flight batteries for each machine when in the field.

[Alex W]

hey guys..

 this is stuff is great. Maybe we should start organising the R&D Multicopter flying day for a few weeks hence???!??

Also posting to say that it is well worth checking at john's site at john888.com if you are interested in multicopters.

In my opinion, quite a few of us here (myself somewhat included) are maybe too overly concerned with the visual asthetics and how "good" the machine parts are, a lot of John's stuff comes mostly from a purely functional point of view. If my memory is correct, a few of his machines amphibious too. It still amazes me how well a few bits of wood and cheap motors/escs cobbled together with rubber bands(?!?!!), tape and pool noodles can fly. Nothing fancy, it just works.

My point is if you dont care some much about looks, then you don't need to spend a lot of money get stuff flying decently.

-alex

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sydney-hackspace/-/lO3MacVqpCgJ.

[Hirsch, John]

Hi all

Has anbody looked into or obtained a UAV operators certificate through CASA as outlined here?

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_100374

It looks like you have to get pass the theory tets for a private pilots licence.

Anyone tried?

JH

John Hirsch
Electronics Engineer,
Interactives
Powerhouse Museum
500 Harris Street, Ultimo, Sydney, NSW 2007 Australia
T +61 2 92170233
W http://www.powerhousemuseum.com

 

This email plus any attachments to it are confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorised use is strictly prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and any attachments.

---

From: sydney-h...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sydney-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex W
Sent: Wednesday, 21 November 2012 10:28 AM

To: sydney-h...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Quadcopter build advice

[Iain Chalmers]

There's a fair bit of talk about CASA UAV certs on rcgroups.com, in the Australian forum as well as the UAV and FPV forums.

I haven't followed _too_ closely, but my impression is that there's only a dozen or so properly licenced UAV operators in Australia, and they're all fiercely protective of "their turf" - if any of them get a hint about someone "not in the club" doing commercial rc flying of any sort, they'll report you to CASA immediately - and that CASA are pretty hot on the case too, not too often punishing/fining people, but making it _very_ clear just how much in fine's they'll be liable for if they're caught breaking the rules after having been officially warned.

It's reasonably common to see people selling expensive multirotor setups with high-end dslr mounts on them in the Australian and multirotor forums, I'm guessing a lot of those are from people who've spend 5 or 10 grand on a commercially available setup before finding out just how complicated it is to be allowed to operate it commercially in Australia.

big

On 22/11/2012, at 10:01 AM, Hirsch, John wrote:

> Hi all
> Has anbody looked into or obtained a UAV operators certificate through CASA as outlined here?
> http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_100374
> It looks like you have to get pass the theory tets for a private pilots licence.
> Anyone tried?
> JH

> <phmemailfooterd15653.gif>John Hirsch

> Electronics Engineer,
> Interactives
> Powerhouse Museum
> 500 Harris Street, Ultimo, Sydney, NSW 2007 Australia
> T +61 2 92170233
> W http://www.powerhousemuseum.com
>
>
>
> This email plus any attachments to it are confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorised use is strictly prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and any attachments.
>

[David Vandenberg]

Hey Guys,

 

I’ve been making progress on the quad, but frustratingly my motors have still not arrived after over week even though I paid to get them shipped EMS.

So everything is hooked up, but I have no motors and can’t test anything.

 

Does anyone have some cheap motors I could borrow on Saturday just to hook up and test that everything is working?

I don’t need to fly it, I just can’t take it any further ATM without my motors. I just want to spin it up without props.

My ESCs have 3mm bullet connectors.

 

Anyway, here’s a recent progress shot of the quad with the canopy on just after I installed LED eyes J

 

 

[Max Nippard]

I have motors fitted 3.5mm bullets (can't remember which way round) at the space that your welcome to test with.

You could stretch electrical tape around the connectors for testing.

--

[David Vandenberg]

Awesome. Which one is yours?

Actually my ESCs have 3.5mm female bullets, so there’s a good chance they’ll be compatible.

Any idea what the motor specs are?

 

David Vandenberg

Director | EngineRoom

Director | Fishburners

 

From: sydney-h...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sydney-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Max Nippard
Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2012 8:22 PM
To: Robodino List
Subject: Re: Quadcopter build advice

 

I have motors fitted 3.5mm bullets (can't remember which way round) at the space that your welcome to test with.

[Max Nippard]

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4700

These ones

[David Vandenberg]

My Tiger motors finally arrived today. Thanks Max for loaning me your motors to test with.

 

I managed to fit the Tigers and put some props on for a few tests..

 

Attempt #1: Nut came loose and a prop shot off. Never found the nut.. it’ll pop up eventually.

Attempt #2: Replaced nuts with the aluminium cones from the collet adapters I. Made sure they were really tight this time. All went well.

 

Now that it seemed stable pinned down and I had a feel for the throttle, I decided I’d take it up to the roof for a low hover test.

I didn’t quite trust it completely yet, so I tethered the landing gear to the ground with some string to ensure it didn’t fly away (I’m on the top of a building in Darlinghurst).

 

Attempt #3: Slowly moved the throttle up, making a hell of a noise. I backed away and it flipped, breaking a prop. Turns out that I’d somehow monumentally stuffed up the props and had 4 “R” props on it..

 

Attempt #4: Now all the props are correct and it should theoretically be all good. Spun it up again.. slowly, slowly.. yet another flip. Broke another prop, the canopy popped off, and the top shelf of my frame that I’d glued on broke off.. Easy fix, but not quite sure what went wrong that time. Did the controller cause the flip, or was it just me being too cautious and not firing up the throttle enough to get it off the ground before releasing?

 

Decided that was enough for day 1 and I figured that I can’t really test it in the cramped space of my own apartment.

Next attempts will be out at Moore Park or something.. I need a lot more space and the confidence that I can give it some throttle without it shooting off into a populated area.

It’s a scary machine! It’s currently weighing over 2kg, and you can feel the sheer power it’s putting out to lift it. Kind of thinking I should have gotten a small battery just for the initial tests.

 

Everyone’s advice about starting with a thrasher quad is making so much sense now J

The wisdom of hindsight!

I’ve still got a few sets of props left, but I’m off to order a whole bunch more right now as I have a feeling many more will go snap before I’ve gotten the hang of this.

 

My project for tonight will be to rewire it for the new motors, relocating the ESCs under the canopy.. and fixing the upper layer. Maybe I’ll head over to Centennial Park tomorrow afternoon and give it a whirl in a larger field.

 

 

 

[Iain Chalmers]

When I was first testing mine, I did something I knew was not wise at the time... 

I ran it with my smallest props (9" instead of the 10" and 11" alternatives) and on a 2S pack (to reduce the max power available) and then I held onto my frame from below while I slowly spun up the motors, then could  twist it around to get a feel for what the controller was doing. It made it _really_ obvious when I didn't have everything oriented properly - if I'd tried flying it in the first configuration I'd set it up with, it would definitely have done that "flip over immediately" I've sen so often on youtube... 

It sounds like yours is 2 or 3 timed heavier (and presumably more powerful) than mine, that might tip my technique from merely "unwise" to "downright foolish".

So, if you chop your fingers or hands off trying this - it wasn't my idea, OK? ;-)

big

[Allie Paterson]

Why don't you bring it into the space tomorrow night and we can have a look at it? There are a few good troubleshooting and testing tips I picked up while working on mine...

Cheers,
Allie

[Luke Emrose]

Was this inspired by "Batteries Not Included"? It looks so familiar (forgive me if this was already mentioned in the thread I didn't read the whole thing):

;-) I LOVED THAT MOVIE!

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[Patrick Barnes]

I can't help but wonder...

What if you tied the skids to a heavy wooden board, and put a cheap
kitchen scale on each corner?

Then, you can throttle the quad up being fairly sure it won't be able to
take off, and check that the load on each corner matches up to what you
expect.

With a lazy-susan bearing, you could even check the rudder.

;-)

-Patrick

On 3/12/2012 9:25 PM, David Vandenberg wrote:
> My Tiger motors finally arrived today. Thanks Max for loaning me your
> motors to test with.
>
> I managed to fit the Tigers and put some props on for a few tests..
>

> *Attempt #1:*Nut came loose and a prop shot off. Never found the nut..
> it�ll pop up eventually.
>
> *Attempt #2:*Replaced nuts with the aluminium cones from the collet

> adapters I. Made sure they were really tight this time. All went well.
>
> Now that it seemed stable pinned down and I had a feel for the throttle,

> I decided I�d take it up to the roof for a low hover test.
>
> I didn�t quite trust it completely yet, so I tethered the landing gear
> to the ground with some string to ensure it didn�t fly away (I�m on the

> top of a building in Darlinghurst).
>

> *Attempt #3:*Slowly moved the throttle up, making a hell of a noise. I
> backed away and it flipped, breaking a prop. Turns out that I�d somehow
> monumentally stuffed up the props and had 4 �R� props on it..
>
> *Attempt #4:*Now all the props are correct and it should theoretically

> be all good. Spun it up again.. slowly, slowly.. yet another flip. Broke
> another prop, the canopy popped off, and the top shelf of my frame that

> I�d glued on broke off.. Easy fix, but not quite sure what went wrong

> that time. Did the controller cause the flip, or was it just me being
> too cautious and not firing up the throttle enough to get it off the
> ground before releasing?
>

> Decided that was enough for day 1 and I figured that I can�t really test

> it in the cramped space of my own apartment.
>
> Next attempts will be out at Moore Park or something.. I need a lot more
> space and the confidence that I can give it some throttle without it
> shooting off into a populated area.
>

> It�s a scary machine! It�s currently weighing over 2kg, and you can feel
> the sheer power it�s putting out to lift it. Kind of thinking I should

> have gotten a small battery just for the initial tests.
>

> Everyone�s advice about starting with a thrasher quad is making so much

> sense now J
>
> The wisdom of hindsight!
>

> I�ve still got a few sets of props left, but I�m off to order a whole

> bunch more right now as I have a feeling many more will go snap before

> I�ve gotten the hang of this.

>
> My project for tonight will be to rewire it for the new motors,
> relocating the ESCs under the canopy.. and fixing the upper layer. Maybe

> I�ll head over to Centennial Park tomorrow afternoon and give it a whirl
> in a larger field.
>
> *David Vandenberg*
>
> Director | EngineRoom
>
> Director | Fishburners
>
> *From:*sydney-h...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:sydney-h...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Max Nippard
> *Sent:* Thursday, 29 November 2012 8:40 PM
> *To:* Robodino List
> *Subject:* Re: Quadcopter build advice

>
> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4700
>
> These ones
>
> On 29 November 2012 20:25, David Vandenberg <da...@thelab.com.au

> <mailto:da...@thelab.com.au>> wrote:
>
> Awesome. Which one is yours?
>

> Actually my ESCs have 3.5mm female bullets, so there�s a good chance
> they�ll be compatible.

>
> Any idea what the motor specs are?
>

> *David Vandenberg*
>
> Director | EngineRoom
>
> Director | Fishburners
>
> *From:*sydney-h...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:sydney-h...@googlegroups.com>
> [mailto:sydney-h...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:sydney-h...@googlegroups.com>] *On Behalf Of *Max Nippard
> *Sent:* Thursday, 29 November 2012 8:22 PM
> *To:* Robodino List
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Quadcopter build advice

>
> I have motors fitted 3.5mm bullets (can't remember which way round) at
> the space that your welcome to test with.
>
> You could stretch electrical tape around the connectors for testing.
>
> On 29 November 2012 20:01, David Vandenberg <da...@thelab.com.au

> <mailto:da...@thelab.com.au>> wrote:
>
> Hey Guys,
>
> I�ve been making progress on the quad, but frustratingly my motors have

> still not arrived after over week even though I paid to get them shipped
> EMS.
>

> So everything is hooked up, but I have no motors and can�t test anything.

>
> Does anyone have some cheap motors I could borrow on Saturday just to
> hook up and test that everything is working?
>

> I don�t need to fly it, I just can�t take it any further ATM without my

> motors. I just want to spin it up without props.
>
> My ESCs have 3mm bullet connectors.
>

> Anyway, here�s a recent progress shot of the quad with the canopy on

> just after I installed LED eyes J
>

> https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/465674_10151140687006845_1461793665_o.jpg
>
> *David Vandenberg*

>
> Director | EngineRoom
>
> Director | Fishburners
>
> --
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[David Vandenberg]

Hey Luke,
Actually, the frame is is a standard frame called the Bumblebee that's available at Hobbyking and a bunch of other places.
I went for it because it's a nice carbon fibre frame and the "eyes" give it a bit of a robot look.

[David Vandenberg]

Hey big,
I've got to admit that's crossed my mind too as a possible solution to feeling the forces applied by the motors/props for a quick diagnosis. But seeing the power that it puts out, it could definitely go really bad really quick.

[David Vandenberg]

Thanks Allie,

Not sure if I can make it tonight. I'll see how I go.

[David Vandenberg]

I had my first successful flight earlier this afternoon.
I took it out to Harmony park, which is very urban and heaps of ppl, so I had to be extremely cautious.


Attempt #1: I found a spot with nobody within 15m and carefully increased the throttle until it started to lift. It was a bit of a worry at first as it seemed to be pulling to the right - ie the left legs started to lift every so slightly and so I throttled down to be safe.

I hooked it up to the laptop to double-check the trims, making sure that it wasn't trimmed too far right. Everything was perfect, so I powered up again.

Attempt #2: I thought maybe last time it was just slightly uneven ground, so I kept it at low throttle and stood above it and tilted the fuselage back and forth to see how the motors responded.

Attempt #3: Everything seemed to be compensating correctly, so I though it was probably safe enough to give it a bit more lift.
This time I lifted it 2m from the ground and hovered for a little. Not to push my luck too far, I performed a soft landing to plan the next move.
This was a huge boost of confidence! I was really worrying that there was something wrong with the electronics before this.

Note that this entire testing session was being done in Att Hold mode. I decided not to attach the GPS for these tests.. partly because I haven't gotten around to reattaching after yesterday's crash.

Attempt #4: OK, so now I know it flies.. So I thought I'd move it around a bit. I lifted off again with no problems.I took it up to about 5m and manouvred it a little. I noticed a couple of times that it went into a short spasm and quickly recorrected. By this time I'd drifted about 10m away so I brought it down again.
I was slightly worried that the spams were caused by my flight mode flickering into failsafe (which has been happening when watching the assistant software). However, it could also have been the gyro gains being too high. Given the high power of the motors, this seemed likely too.

Attempt #5: I have my centre analog dial mapped to gyro gain, so I turned it down to about 25% and gave it another shot. Took it up to about 5m again and moved around. There was a bit of wind making it drift right. Was up for about a minute and everything was fine except I was drifting a little too close to a tree. I brought it back to my launch position and tried to land.. I overcompensated a bit for the drift and ended up toppling on landing. I broke a prop and popped off one of the landing gear legs, but everything was fine.

So in all, a pretty good outcome today. I broke a prop, but I'm flying.
Next step is to reinstall the GPS and run some tests in GPS mode. Hopefully I can stick landings much better with GPS hold, so I can let the IMU stabilise position while I just throttle down.
I may even try the return to home failsafe for my next landing.

[Max Nippard]

Congratulations on first flight. 

On Tuesday, December 4, 2012, David Vandenberg wrote:

I had my first successful flight earlier this afternoon.
I took it out to Harmony park, which is very urban and heaps of ppl, so I had to be extremely cautious.


Attempt #1: I found a spot with nobody within 15m and carefully increased the throttle until it started to lift. It was a bit of a worry at first as it seemed to be pulling to the right - ie the left legs started to lift every so slightly and so I throttled down to be safe.

Until the quad gets clear of the ground and up about a metre into clear air it will often act funny. Try not to spend too much time in the half airbourne position, it won't end well. :-P 

I found that a helipad of cardboard or something  makes take offs easier. That and giving it a little bit extra throttle for a second just to get the landing gear away from potential snags on the ground. 

 

I hooked it up to the laptop to double-check the trims, making sure that it wasn't trimmed too far right. Everything was perfect, so I powered up again.

Attempt #2: I thought maybe last time it was just slightly uneven ground, so I kept it at low throttle and stood above it and tilted the fuselage back and forth to see how the motors responded.

Attempt #3: Everything seemed to be compensating correctly, so I though it was probably safe enough to give it a bit more lift.
This time I lifted it 2m from the ground and hovered for a little. Not to push my luck too far, I performed a soft landing to plan the next move.
This was a huge boost of confidence! I was really worrying that there was something wrong with the electronics before this.

Note that this entire testing session was being done in Att Hold mode. I decided not to attach the GPS for these tests.. partly because I haven't gotten around to reattaching after yesterday's crash.

Attempt #4: OK, so now I know it flies.. So I thought I'd move it around a bit. I lifted off again with no problems.I took it up to about 5m and manouvred it a little. I noticed a couple of times that it went into a short spasm and quickly recorrected. By this time I'd drifted about 10m away so I brought it down again.
I was slightly worried that the spams were caused by my flight mode flickering into failsafe (which has been happening when watching the assistant software). However, it could also have been the gyro gains being too high. Given the high power of the motors, this seemed likely too.

Attempt #5: I have my centre analog dial mapped to gyro gain, so I turned it down to about 25% and gave it another shot. Took it up to about 5m again and moved around. There was a bit of wind making it drift right. Was up for about a minute and everything was fine except I was drifting a little too close to a tree. I brought it back to my launch position and tried to land.. I overcompensated a bit for the drift and ended up toppling on landing. I broke a prop and popped off one of the landing gear legs, but everything was fine.

So in all, a pretty good outcome today. I broke a prop, but I'm flying.
Next step is to reinstall the GPS and run some tests in GPS mode. Hopefully I can stick landings much better with GPS hold, so I can let the IMU stabilise position while I just throttle down.
I may even try the return to home failsafe for my next landing. 

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[David Vandenberg]

Yeah, it's been kind of sinking in that I need to give it a bit of a kick to get it off the ground and being too cautious just ends up breaking props.

Now that I've flown a couple of times I'm a bit more confident to just get it in the air.

[Mark Butcher]

How's it been going since this last post update wounder how you got on?