Feedback

[Keith Franks]

Hey guys,

I just had some friends of mine find out about RnD and posted it on Facebook.

One friend (a guy) was really excited that you did 3D printing there. The other friend (a girl) was disappointed that there was only guys there.

I pointed out that there are a lot of girls at the space, and she said the photos on the website only showed guys.

Thought that might be an opportunity to try and change the demographics a little? : )

Keith

[Alexander]

Hello,
I agree with you! It would be very nice to have a mix of gender within the RnD group, and in fact within any hackerspace.

It's just the challenge of getting the message out there.

Thanks,
Alexander.

[Madox]

As with many "Engineering" related items, guys do out number girls but the environment is still female friendly and that should be considered. She shouldn't feel out of place just because Gavin is photogenic and appears in every photo :)

Out of curiosity, maybe Max can give statistics on the gender ratio in paying members?

[Keith Franks]

Maybe just make sure there are token women and children and every blog photo. 

;p

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[Patrick Barnes]

I've got it! Gav in a dress.

[Alexander]

Just two questions:

What is the current demographic of genders, and also age?

On Monday, April 22, 2013 1:14:29 PM UTC+10, Poppa G wrote:

[Max Nippard]

From memory about 20% female and most members between 25 and 35.

We are always looking for ways to make the hackerspace more friendly to women so ideas are welcome. We are also looking for people willing to implement those ideas.

--

[ivanjh]

Yes... ladies are particularly susceptible to gender based positive feedback loops.

[Angus Deveson]

In the 3D printing club I run at a high school in the city, it's made up of mostly girls, 70% or so... yrs 7-8. They like to make design things ranging from ponies to monsters to cupcakes and print them out. :P 

[Keith Franks]

Maybe there should be front page photos of a monster Up printing cupcakes... or a Cupcake printing up monsters..... ?

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Angus Deveson <an...@ufactory.com.au> wrote:

In the 3D printing club I run at a high school in the city, it's made up of mostly girls, 70% or so... yrs 7-8. They like to make design things ranging from ponies to monsters to cupcakes and print them out. :P 

--

[Angus Deveson]

From my twitter: https://twitter.com/uFactory_au/status/309931836090494976/photo/1 Caterpillar! 

[Alexander]

Now that is VERY cool!

On a side note, has anyone else's Google Groups just changed?

[Madox]

That's interesting and is a lot higher than I expected [In terms of percentage of females].

In response to Patrick's comment, I propose a fund raiser where Gav poses in a dress with make up hacking at the space.  I'll put $10 for it :P

[ada]

On Apr 22, 8:13 pm, Madox <madox....@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's interesting and is a lot higher than I expected [In terms of
> percentage of females].
>
> In response to Patrick's comment, I propose a fund raiser where Gav poses
> in a dress with make up hacking at the space.  I'll put $10 for it :P

Me too!

I'll put in $10, *and* I'll wear a dress. Will you match that, Madox?

[Rebecca]

Assertions by men that a space is female friendly does not make it so.

And

I don't feel like giving you boys a breakdown but:

[Jaye Gallagher]

On 22/04/2013 1:24 PM, Madox wrote:

> As with many "Engineering" related items, guys do out number girls but the environment is still female friendly and that should be considered. She shouldn't feel out of place just because Gavin is photogenic and appears in every photo :)
>
> Out of curiosity, maybe Max can give statistics on the gender ratio in paying members?

I'm curious Madox:

Why do you think that the space is female friendly?

Why do you think that you've got a such sufficiently authoritative
opinion on whether the space is female friendly that you can simply
assert that it's the case?

Jaye.

[Jaye Gallagher]

Uh huh. Because women are just men in dresses. And all women wear
dresses. It's exactly this sort of sexist stereotypical bullshit that
usually makes me think twice about posting. How does it help in the
slightest?

No matter what the payment stats say, the space is overwhelming
inhabited by men in my experience, and the gender ratio on postings to
this list hovers somewhere between 1% and 5%. That's *way* below* the
average, even for male dominated areas like engineering and computer
science.

Jaye.

[Jaye Gallagher]

"gender based positive feedback loops"

I think here you meant to say "omnipresent dominant male privilege". If the shoe was on the other foot,  I'm sure you'd be equally susceptable to "gender based positive feedback loops". :)

Jaye.

[Patrick Barnes]

No, simply because I thought the mental image of Gav wearing a dress
(and still being overrepresented in RnD blog photos) was amusing.
Nothing more.

-Patrick

[Madox]

Hmmmm I'm sorry if I have caused any offence in my (perhaps poor) perception.  Other than the power tools, my partner quite enjoyed herself when she visited and that was the basis of my assumption.

I did not try to speak on an authoritative basis, but on pure personal opinion.  Apologies if my opinion came across as assertive.

Just an observation : the ratio of females to males is still way more than my university days (1:30).

[Rebecca]

Ahhh, so the joke about Gav wearing female attire was completely contextually disconnected from the discussion on improving female inclusiveness.

This means you weren't jokingly suggesting that Gav wearing a dress in R&D photos would make women feel less out of place.

It was a complete coincidence that the dress joke popped into this thread about inclusiveness of women.

Nothing more?

[Patrick Barnes]

Actually, really nothing more. It was just a joke, that maybe needed
more contextual hints. (<jk> tags, or a smiley face)

I can't imagine and wouldn't presume what impression cross-dressing in
the hackerspace would make on visitors.

I don't think this thread has been particularly productive.

Yes, there is a gender imbalance in the regular attendants at the space,
that is something that can be observed and measured.
Is it because of the environment? Hard to test, and jumping to
conclusions won't help.

1) How does the gender ratio of regular attendants compare with that of
people appearing on the list asking about the space? With that of
first-time visitors? With that of people who are interested, but never
take that step of visiting or introducing themselves on-list?

2) What feedback has been received from members and visitors about the
space environment? Are the negative comments from female visitors only
about the existing gender imbalance, or have there been other comments
that merit attention?

I know that growing the RnD community is an important objective, and as
Bill Gates has said, "not fully utilizing half the talent" isn't helpful.

Answering the first question would help to identify whether there is a
problem. (if 5% of regular attendants are female, and 2% of
first-time-visitors are female, statistically more female visitors
become regular attendants)

Answering the second question would help to identify what problems might
exist. Perhaps first-time-visitors (who usually pop-up on the mailing
list first) could be asked to provide feedback on their impressions
after they visit.

Once that data is collected, *then* informed decisions could be made.

-Patrick

On 23/04/2013 2:34 AM, Rebecca wrote:
> Ahhh, so the joke about Gav wearing female attire was completely
> contextually disconnected from the discussion on improving female
> inclusiveness.
>
> This means you weren't jokingly suggesting that Gav wearing a dress in
> R&D photos would make women feel less out of place.
>
> It was a complete coincidence that the dress joke popped into this
> thread about inclusiveness of women.
>
> Nothing more?
> On Apr 23, 2013 1:15 AM, "Patrick Barnes" <mrt...@gmail.com

> <mailto:sydney-hackspace%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

> > To post to this group, send email to
> sydney-h...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:sydney-h...@googlegroups.com>.

[Alexander]

This is the moment where a joke was taken the wrong way :(

[Max Nippard]

A bunch of men joking about women is not likely to encourage new members.
I'm sure no one intended this thread to go that way but it did nonetheless.

If anyone wants to suggest ways to improve the group but doesn't feel like posting it publicly, please use bo...@robodino.org.

On Apr 23, 2013 9:24 AM, "Alexander" <ihir...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is the moment where a joke was taken the wrong way :(

[Tim]

Well, I'm glad I didn't go with my first impulse of suggesting we use kidnappings to attempt to seed the population...

Note, that was at least half a joke.

So this is one of those instances where I'm not sure if I should say anything or not, as we can be a fickle bunch, and my input is usually akin to a sledge hammer on a dollhouse, but I feel like I should at least try, so I am just going to try to be factual.

Jaye/Rebecca you have now sent 5 emails condemning the attempts at humour/gender equality and said nothing offering any advice. Now that we've established that we have no idea, Can we have some help?

Tim.

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Alexander <ihir...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is the moment where a joke was taken the wrong way :(

[Alexander]

I agree, a little help please?

[Gav]

Hi All,

I was going to respond to this thread last night but put it off because I was dog tired. Here are some thoughts. 

As far as gender balance in the actual members goes, Max provided the numbers. I might add that we've always had a least one female member on RnD's board, usually more, and a few of our 'key' members are women.

We've also had a couple of positive comments from visiting members of other  hackerspaces about our group, number of female members compared to theirs and the level of discussions. 

Having said that, I definitely understand how it's difficult to be the only woman in the room, and we want to make sure RnD is a welcoming and friendly place. 

(If anyone has concerns along these lines please feel free to email me, or the board (bo...@robodino.org). At the very least we promise to take people seriously) 

As far as new members and perceptions goes, one interesting thing I've occasionally noticed from some new members and 'walk-in' visitors is, both male and female, is that they aren't sure if they're 'allowed' in. RnD is known as a very technical place, where 3d printers  and laser cutters are the norm, but that doesn't mean that people's projects have to be technical. 

As an example we've had people making paper art, light sculptures, crochet, metal casting, making musical instruments, dresses, etc. There really isn't a single common element or skill that's required to come tinker a project at RnD. Certainly not soldering, or electronics work. 

Also, one thing that's often overwhelming when going to a new space is that people are working in different fields. E.g. Max's got some awesome self balancing quadcopters, someone else is 3D modelling, I'm building autonomous robots, someone's working on FPGAs, other people are casting resin, etc. I don't know of anyone in the space that's a master of all those skills, but it sometimes comes across that way. Someone new walks in and sees this, and they think they don't belong since they only know a bit on one of those topics, and clearly the group involves a lot more. In reality everyone belongs, and has a set of interests and skills that are awesome and useful. 

If anyone's lurking on the list (male or female) and uncertain of whether they should visit RnD, I'd highly recommend you do, we always like to see new faces. And please bring along a project that you're working on, or one you've made previously for show & tell. If you don't have a project, come in anyway and chat! 

Also, if you have some knowledge in a skill that you'd like to pass on (casting, sewing, welding, etc). please consider running a workshop. A couple of weeks ago I ran one in making self-navigating robots. Last weekend Max and others ran one on surface mount soldering. We're always interested to host more. 

One way to clear up some of these perceptions is an FAQ on the website, which has been on my to-do list. We'll try to get it up soonish.

Cheers,

Gavin 

*And as far a me in a dress goes, I have no objection but as a way to make females welcome that's just 'does not compute'. Anyone wishing to see me in a dress for money should discretely email me off list, and have the money ready in a plain brown paper bag as usual. 

On 23 April 2013 09:58, Alexander <ihir...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree, a little help please?

[Andrew]

There are perhaps two separate questions here.

 

The first is: how does the space effectively showcase the involvement the girls already have?

 

The second is: how do you support and encourage new participation in the space by the girls?

 

As Campbelltown has a very active ladies circle, they tend to be self-supporting, choosing their own group activities.  Scrap booking, knitting, cooking.

 

Sometimes it is a matter of "bending" group activities towards a common interest.  For example, we have just constructed a vacuum table to allow vacuum forming.  We had our first success with it last night making chocolate moulds from patterns made out of plasticine.  Chocolate-related activities tend to attract universal interest.

 

Andrew

 

[Keith Franks]

May I suggest that you elect a volunteer to be a "Diversity Officer" ??

Someone who can step in and say when things are coming across wrongly, to help with ensuring that there is some sort of increase where percentages are low, adding photos to the blog that show more than just blokes.... etc.

I don't think this is a man vs woman thing as much as it is a let's accept every one and make them feel welcome kind of thing.

Keith

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Alexander <ihir...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree, a little help please?

[Alexander]

That's convinced me (a male) to join you guys and girls this Saturday. I have to admit, I did feel a little bit of what was described as being a feeling of "am I allowed in?". :)

Alexander.

[Chris Wolfe]

Howdy R&D,

My point of view from Make Hack Void is that you have to create an atmosphere that is welcoming to both genders, instead of suggesting "Oooh we can make craft/sewing/art days to pull in more girls!" This in itself will not work because at heart its a sexist suggestion.

For example if the first experience is of suspect jokes, an unsaid feel that says girls will only be there to work on 'art' instead of whatever they feel like working on, of course they will come away feeling its a male atmosphere.

Start with the obvious things like keeping comments/jokes etc to a minimum, because they are insidious. A lot of the time you wont realise but they do offend.
Then just keep working at it.

But then all these things being said MHV does not have an even gender balance. However we try and make it welcoming.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Chris

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Alexander <ihir...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's convinced me (a male) to join you guys and girls this Saturday. I have to admit, I did feel a little bit of what was described as being a feeling of "am I allowed in?". :)

Alexander.

[ada]

On Apr 23, 1:28 am, Madox <madox....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just an observation : the ratio of females to males is still way more than
> my university days (1:30).

What university did you go to?

In 2000 or thereabouts, the overall gender ratio at the school of
computer science and engineering at UNSW was about 6:1 (approx 15%),
with certain programs having more women (computer science was about
25%, IIRC) and certain programs having fewer. I don't have numbers
for the rest of the faculty of engineering. My own course was about
49 or 50% women.

On Apr 23, 1:01 am, Jaye Gallagher <msj...@msjaye.com> wrote:
> On 22/04/2013 1:24 PM, Madox wrote:
> > As with many "Engineering" related items, guys do out number girls but the environment is still female friendly and that should be considered.  She shouldn't feel out of place just because Gavin is photogenic and appears in every photo :)
> > Out of curiosity, maybe Max can give statistics on the gender ratio in paying members?

> Why do you think that the space is female friendly?
> Why do you think that you've got a such sufficiently authoritative
> opinion on whether the space is female friendly that you can simply
> assert that it's the case?

Things are what they are, and I don't think anybody is able to say
anything more than their own personal perceptions and impressions.
You might weight certain opinions more highly than others because of
their owners' lack of a Y chromosome but in the end, the plural of
anecdote is not data, and unless you systematically set out to collect
data you will be unable to draw definitive conclusions.

So all that John can say is that he perceives the space as not being
unfriendly to women; all you or Rebecca can say is 'I perceive R&D as
not being friendly _to me_, and I think it would be perceived in a
similar way by people like me in this or that way'. Unless, of
course, you're going to declare yourself a shining emblem of
womanhood...

As for my own anecdote:
This is neither the most or the least woman-friendly engineering-ish
area I've been in. However, my own experience has been in two fields
with extremely distorted gender ratios: operating systems, and
orthopaedic surgery. There are minimal, but occasional, negative
factors, but there is also a distinct lack of positive factors.

As for posting to the list - the list is primarily inane chatter, and
I think that if you take DL out of the mix the ratios change.

[Finnian Lattimore]

So here are my thoughts. I've never felt unwelcome at RnD, people are very friendly and helpful, taking an interest in what I'm doing happy to show me how to use a tool or help me find something, but I do sometimes feel a bit out of place. Partly as I'm often the only girl and also because I feel I 'ought' to be doing something involving electronics. 

I think encouraging and promoting a wider range of activities could help the space appeal more to women. I'm not saying women like craft/sewing and boys like electronics/robots but many women may not have any experience in electronics and its kind of intimidating to jump straight into something you know nothing about in a room full of guys who seem to know everything. It is ever so much easier to start with something you have some confidence in and then broaden your skills by incorporating other things.

Suggestions for what we could do to improve ...

Come up with some cool projects/workshops that appeal to everyone and involve skills from across the traditional gender divide, chocolate construction definitely good, maybe a kids toy construction day given the current baby boom, electronic/mixed media art ... other suggestions?

Consider the physical space. The current space is not ideal for 'cleaner' activities like sewing etc. I know finding a space probably has enough challenges already but the ideal space from my perspective would be dividable into different spaces for clean stuff, noisy stuff, dirty stuff and have somewhere safe for kids to play (under supervision) - ideally with a small outdoor space or park nearby.

Deliberately increase diversity of both people and projects in 'advertising material'. 

Cheers,

Finn

[Jaye Gallagher]

On 23/04/2013 9:50 AM, Tim wrote:

Well, I'm glad I didn't go with my first impulse of suggesting we use kidnappings to attempt to seed the population...

Note, that was at least half a joke.

So this is one of those instances where I'm not sure if I should say anything or not, as we can be a fickle bunch, and my input is usually akin to a sledge hammer on a dollhouse, but I feel like I should at least try, so I am just going to try to be factual.

Jaye/Rebecca you have now sent 5 emails condemning the attempts at humour/gender equality and said nothing offering any advice. Now that we've established that we have no idea, Can we have some help?

Hey there Tim,

Well, I can try to provide some feedback, but the main reason I've never posted about this sort of thing before is that I think it's an artifact of a deep-seated problem in society generally, and in the engineering community. As such, I don't really have anything constructive to add in particular: this is a problem which, in my experience (working as a computer programmer for 22 years in variety of male dominated workplaces), most men in the position of priviliege simply don't *want* to solve. Whatever gets said, as a group you seem to like having your private clubhouse/workplace with the occasional girl to make you feel like you're being "fair".

Nonetheless, here's some observations:

1) I understand that it's very difficult to find somewhere to host the space, and that as a group we have to take what we can get, however I do think there's been a significant change between the feeling of the space at Kogarah, and in Gladesville. At Kogarah, the space was hosted in a house with lots of different areas in which people could group. A house is a familiar environment for both genders. At Gladesville, the space is hosted in an open-plan workshop attached to an auto-mechanic shop. You'd be hard-pressed to find a more stereotypically male dominated environment than an auto-shop: it's practically a temple to masculinity. Consider what the space might feel like if we went the other way and hosted the space in a stereotypically female space. Might feel a bit intimdating or off-putting, especially arriving for the first time. I think this is a big factor, and in my experience the move in location has correlated strongly with a drop in female attendance.

2) Very often, when I strike up a conversation with someone new at the space (and the odds are they'll be a fellah), I  go around the same cycle. Again it's a cycle I've encountered in various workplaces. Initially the new fellah will talk to me as though I'm a little bit simple, or could probably use some help with whatever I'm doing. I'll then talk for a little about the details of whatever I'm working on. I then get a look of surprise from the fellah and they back away a little. It's as if they expect me to be a bit dim, or slow, and to need a bit of man-splaining to help my poor, small, brain with whatever I'm doing. The fact that I'm clever, expert and know what I'm doing seems a shock. It's only a shock if you're assuming boobs mean I must be one of the slow children.

3) Everyone works on the sort of stuff they want to work on at the space, however, that feeling of inclusion comes from finding people who appreciate and work on vaguely similar stuff to you. The gender ratio at the space means that there's a lot of people working on brutalist, functional stuff, and if you're working on something directly aesthetic, trying to make the beautiful or the pretty, there's really not much camaraderie to be had. This isn't inclusive.

As I say, I don't have any solutions to these issues, which is why I've not posted previously. You asked for feekback. Here's some. :)

Jaye.

[Rebecca]

This response is in reply to Patrick's comment but is not solely directed at him.

"I don't think this thread has been particularly productive."

Women contributing to a discussion by (initially) predominantly male voices regarding improving inclusiveness of women in the organisation IS being productive.

Women providing direct feedback about particular comments they find offensive IN a discussion about making the organisation more friendly to women is also being productive.

Brushing off said feedback is counter productive.

The implied "If we got the joke we wouldn't be offended" response is counter productive. We did 'get' the joke yet we were offended.

Making the space more friendly to all genders is not something we just action item for later it's something to consider for all R&D related interactions.

If any member is openly offended by a comment made by another member the productive response is for the poster to invest some effort in considering why this outcome occurred.

I have personally let countless sexist comments slide because I'm well aware some men find it very uncomfortable being called out over them.

This thread seemed like an excellent opportunity to speak up about a problem that is usually out of sight and uninspected.

Tim said: "Jaye/Rebecca you have now sent 5 emails condemning the attempts at humour/gender equality and said nothing offering any advice. Now that we've established that we have no idea, Can we have some help?"

Alexander said: "I agree, a little help please?"

Illuminating the offensive IS providing constructive feedback. At the very least you have been given glaring examples of what not to do.

Bec

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[Keith Franks]

Okay, I'm just going to put this out there.

I'm six foot four, extremely into fitness and working out at the moment and weigh in at about 100kgs.

I want to get more into electronics because I don't know enough about the hands on stuff, and I'm massively into art and creative stuff.

I know more about hands on sewing than I do about hands on electronics.

I am NOT happy about the amount of references that link any sort of activity to any sort of gender. 

The whole idea of hack spaces is supposed to be about ANYONE learning a skill they didn't know, or honing a skill they want to know more about. It's the idea of being able to learn to do something without boundaries. 

If anyone, male or female, is about to write an email that includes any linking of a gender to an activity - stop. Hit backspace and then work out what you're really trying to say and just post that.

[ada]

On Apr 23, 12:17 pm, Jaye Gallagher <msj...@msjaye.com> wrote:
> The gender ratio at
> the space means that there's a lot of people working on brutalist,
> functional stuff, and if you're working on something directly aesthetic,
> trying to make the beautiful or the pretty, there's really not much
> camaraderie to be had. This isn't inclusive.

... it's snobbish to say that the brutalist cannot be attractive, or
even that these are on the same axis.

but otherwise I agree with, and echo, everything you've said.

[Jaye Gallagher]

On 23/04/2013 12:03 PM, ada wrote:
> On Apr 23, 1:01 am, Jaye Gallagher <msj...@msjaye.com> wrote:
>> > On 22/04/2013 1:24 PM, Madox wrote:
>>> > > As with many "Engineering" related items, guys do out number girls but the environment is still female friendly and that should be considered. She shouldn't feel out of place just because Gavin is photogenic and appears in every photo :)
>>> > > Out of curiosity, maybe Max can give statistics on the gender ratio in paying members?
>> > Why do you think that the space is female friendly?
>> > Why do you think that you've got a such sufficiently authoritative
>> > opinion on whether the space is female friendly that you can simply
>> > assert that it's the case?
> Things are what they are, and I don't think anybody is able to say
> anything more than their own personal perceptions and impressions.
> You might weight certain opinions more highly than others because of
> their owners' lack of a Y chromosome but in the end, the plural of
> anecdote is not data, and unless you systematically set out to collect
> data you will be unable to draw definitive conclusions.
>
> So all that John can say is that he perceives the space as not being
> unfriendly to women; all you or Rebecca can say is 'I perceive R&D as
> not being friendly _to me_, and I think it would be perceived in a
> similar way by people like me in this or that way'. Unless, of
> course, you're going to declare yourself a shining emblem of
> womanhood...

Uh huh. So you're suggesting that the appropriate model to apply to
social dynamics and group inclusion problems is "gather data, analyse,
form theory, enact solution"? That seems pretty cold and disconnected
from the actual squishy feelings and real humans involved in such
situations. I've related my *experiences* and have drawn conclusions
from them because I was *explicitly* asked to do so. Perhaps the plural
of anecdote isn't data, but being one of the few irregularly attending
women, I'm disinclined to be *further* put under the analytical
microscope than I already am simply by attending, especially if the
opinions I do express will then be denigrated by this sort of
"everyone's experience is subjective and disconnected" nonsense talk.

This isn't helpful to the debate in the slightest. It's the opposite of
constructive.

Jaye.

[Jaye Gallagher]

Oh, indeed, I'm a big fan of brutalism, and it *can* be attractive. What
I was saying is that it's isolating, project-intent-wise to be
constantly surrounded by such stuff, when it's not what you're doing.

Jaye.

[Jaye Gallagher]

On 23/04/2013 12:27 PM, Keith Franks wrote:
> Okay, I'm just going to put this out there.
>
> I'm six foot four, extremely into fitness and working out at the
> moment and weigh in at about 100kgs.
>
> I want to get more into electronics because I don't know enough about
> the hands on stuff, and I'm massively into art and creative stuff.
>
> I know more about hands on sewing than I do about hands on electronics.
>
> I am NOT happy about the amount of references that link any sort of
> activity to any sort of gender.
>
> The whole idea of hack spaces is supposed to be about ANYONE learning
> a skill they didn't know, or honing a skill they want to know more
> about. It's the idea of being able to learn to do something without
> boundaries.
>
> If anyone, male or female, is about to write an email that includes
> any linking of a gender to an activity - stop. Hit backspace and then
> work out what you're really trying to say and just post that.

Nice try. The idea that we could simply pretend that the existing power
structures and gender dynamics of society and engineering don't leak
into the way the space functions is simply supports the status quo. And
*you* are the group privileged by the status quo. To people on the other
(pointy) end of the stick, this feels like sweeping it (back) under the rug.

This is exactly what I was referring to when I wrote: "most men in the

position of priviliege simply don't *want* to solve. Whatever gets said,
as a group you seem to like having your private clubhouse/workplace with

the occasional girl to make you feel like you're being "fair"."

Jaye.

[Finnian Lattimore]

Hi Keith, I am sorry if I offended you with my post. I was in no way trying to suggest there are male activities and female activities. It is ridiculous to suggest that females evolved to be capable with a sewing machine and males to operate a drop saw or soldering iron. However, unfortunately, due to pre-existing stereo types women and men do tend to have different levels of experience with certain skills. This means that a space set optimized primarily for traditionally male activities is more likely to make women feel out of place. The last thing I wanted to do is was reinforce those steryotypes. I was imagining a space suited to a wide range of activities where everyone got a chance to work on and expand their interests.

I've spent a lot of time in male dominated fields, physics degree, sailing hobby, working as a software dev. I've experienced very occasional explicit sexism and a whole lot of 'crossed wires'. Communication problems easily happen where people can be split into a majority/minority on whatever trait. 

Finn

[Keith Franks]

Thanks, Finn.

But what I'm trying to say is.... can anyone learn physics? Can anyone learn sailing? Can anyone learn software dev?

Stereotypes dictate that none of us should be at the hack space. Big corporations are there to manufacture things for us. We should go back to our government mandated lives.

If the core idea of the hackspace is NOT to learn, then shut me down now, but if it is there are no barriers to LEARNING, or in that respect, CREATING.

Gender, race, lifestyle, (dis)ability - none of that comes into it.

Keith

[Alexander]

As this thread has now derailed far from the original topic, I would advise a moderator to close said thread. I invite anyone with ideas to email the board using the contact details above.

Alexander.

[Iain Chalmers]

On 23/04/2013, at 12:54 PM, Alexander wrote:

> As this thread has now derailed far from the original topic, I would advise a moderator to close said thread. I invite anyone with ideas to email the board using the contact details above.

Can I strongly suggest otherwise?

While this thread is becoming uncomfortable - it's actually just starting to become useful - in the "it might generate actionable ideas to address a real problem of some women feeling unwelcome and/or excluded" sense of useful.

One comment that's really hit home to me this morning, is Jaye's comment about how much more female participation there was at the Kogarah house/space. I hadn't twigged to that myself, but once pointed out it's startlingly obvious. The move was necessary, and the available choices at the time made hanging out in "the temple of testosterone" kind-of inevitable, but we owe it to ourselves to acknowledge the change, and the effect of that change on various people.

Is there really _anybody_ with their head stuck so far in the sand to think that there's "no problem!" with the was women react to the space?

We aren't going to solve the worlds gender-issues problems at R&D, but choosing to not discuss them because it's uncomfortable and challenging means we're choosing to perpetuate the status quo. Maybe some of you(us?) _do_ choose that, but at least accept responsibility for that decision and say "I don't care about how women feel", because saying "sorry, off topic - shut down the thread" is very easily interpreted as saying that.

</rant>

big

[ada]

On Apr 23, 12:33 pm, Jaye Gallagher <msj...@msjaye.com> wrote:
> Uh huh. So you're suggesting that the appropriate model to apply to
> social dynamics and group inclusion problems is "gather data, analyse,
> form theory, enact solution"? That seems pretty cold and disconnected

cold and disconnected is who I am.

> from them because I was *explicitly* asked to do so. Perhaps the plural
> of anecdote isn't data, but being one of the few irregularly attending
> women, I'm disinclined to be *further* put under the analytical
> microscope than I already am simply by attending, especially if the
> opinions I do express will then be denigrated by this sort of
> "everyone's experience is subjective and disconnected" nonsense talk.

That's not what I said.

You and Rebecca have (rightfully) said that John is not entitled to
declare, unilaterally, that the space is female-friendly. I am merely
pointing out that to for you or me to generalise from "The space is
unfriendly to me" to "The space is unfriendly to women" requires that
the ways in which it is unfriendly to be typical of female experience
of the space.

I completely agree with you regarding the specific points you make -
but I'm not going to try and speak for the Sisterhood(tm) and say that
the space is unfriendly to women because of my experiences and my
perceptions, without first comparing notes and making sure that those
perceptions aren't about me rather than my gender. Perhaps it's my
ethnic background, or my educational experience, or ...

(speaking of which - there's a marked lack of ethnic diversity as
well.)

[Tim]

It's a mailing list Alex, it's not really a thread, and it can't really be closed. Thankfully we're all grown-ups and some self moderation can be expected *hint-hint*

There's definitely a lot here for the board to look over, and hopefully we can make the environment better for everyone.

I say everyone, because It's not just Females who feel like they aren't welcome. I'm now on the board and still feel somewhat unwelcome because I don't speak Pearl, use Windows exclusively and can't program a micro unless it's bundled in a kiddie-friendly IDE. Your realisation that you might actually be welcome is proof of this. I think it's a very hard hobby to break into and also quite daunting when you first step into the space.

I'm not saying that there isn't a gender issue, I'm just saying it's not the only one.

Hopefully you manage to make it along on Saturday, then this thread will have been more successful at attracting new members than my Christmas party rocket car day :)

Tim.

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Alexander <ihir...@gmail.com> wrote:

As this thread has now derailed far from the original topic, I would advise a moderator to close said thread. I invite anyone with ideas to email the board using the contact details above.

Alexander.

[ada]

On Apr 23, 12:34 pm, Jaye Gallagher <msj...@msjaye.com> wrote:
> Oh, indeed, I'm a big fan of brutalism, and it *can* be attractive. What
> I was saying is that it's isolating, project-intent-wise to be
> constantly surrounded by such stuff, when it's not what you're doing.

it seems that most of what SRW does is a triumph of form over
function.

I have a problem on another axis, which is that I think that R&D is
anti-intellectual. not enough thinking, not enough differential
equations on the whiteboard.

-A

[Tim]

Re-reading that it came out wrong... I feel like I don't belong because of those things (the micro programming, windows use and pearl uselessness) but I know I am still welcome. I have made many friends there and have had a lot of great experiences.

I just tend to tune out when people start talking about micro programming, *nix computing and stupid programming languages :) 

Tim.

[Xenph Yan]

Just wondering how many people are shouting at their screens too afraid of this thread to correct Tim's spelling of PERL?

--
Christopher J. Beckett
Senior Software Engineer

Work: chris....@bigcommerce.com
Personal: ch...@beckett.io (xenp...@gmail.com)

[Finnian Lattimore]

I really agree with Tim, I feel a bit out of place primarily because of the difference in my skills and the kind of projects I'm working on rather than the gender in-balance. A bunch of guys working on woodwork, sewing and other projects would go further to making me feel more comfortable than more girls working on micro programming - although that would be good too.

And also, its just that I feel a bit out of place and awkward, in no way unwelcome. Seems to me any focus on micro-processors and the like stems from the physical characteristics of the space and interests of current regulars, not any evil conspiracy.  

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Tim <coo...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jaye Gallagher]

On 23/04/2013 1:13 PM, ada wrote:

>> from them because I was *explicitly* asked to do so. Perhaps the plural
>> of anecdote isn't data, but being one of the few irregularly attending
>> women, I'm disinclined to be *further* put under the analytical
>> microscope than I already am simply by attending, especially if the
>> opinions I do express will then be denigrated by this sort of
>> "everyone's experience is subjective and disconnected" nonsense talk.
> That's not what I said.
>
> You and Rebecca have (rightfully) said that John is not entitled to
> declare, unilaterally, that the space is female-friendly. I am merely
> pointing out that to for you or me to generalise from "The space is
> unfriendly to me" to "The space is unfriendly to women" requires that
> the ways in which it is unfriendly to be typical of female experience
> of the space.
>
> I completely agree with you regarding the specific points you make -
> but I'm not going to try and speak for the Sisterhood(tm) and say that
> the space is unfriendly to women because of my experiences and my
> perceptions, without first comparing notes and making sure that those
> perceptions aren't about me rather than my gender. Perhaps it's my
> ethnic background, or my educational experience, or ...

On the other hand, I'd prefer to stick my neck out, and actually say
something when asked in the hope that it might promote thought. Fortune
favours the bold and all that. Sure, I'll almost certainly get tarred
with the "angry lesbian who doesn't know her place" brush, but *someone*
has to take a chance and speak about their experiences or the status quo
remains unchallenged.

Whilst I don't think I've been "speaking for the Sisterhood" as you put
it, and have been speaking clearly about my experiences and reactions to
comments on this thread, if someone has to step up and do that, I'm
happy to take the heat. It wouldn't be the first time. :)

Jaye.

[Tim]

Already happened.

Sent at 1:18 PM on Tuesday

 me:  I think I balsed up that email...

 adalim:  yes

you also misspelt perl

 me:  hahaha.

I hate it so much.

[Alexander]

"Thankfully we're all grownups here."

*hides*

[ada]

On Apr 23, 1:44 pm, Tim <cool...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Already happened.
>
> Sent at 1:18 PM on Tuesday
>  me:  I think I balsed up that email...
>  adalim:  yes
> you also misspelt perl
>  me:  hahaha.
> I hate it so much.

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Xenph Yan <xenph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Just wondering how many people are shouting at their screens too afraid of
> > this thread to correct Tim's spelling of PERL?

I don't shout at my screen, I only shout at other people, and I show
no fear.

[Gav]

Hi All,

It's been very interesting to hear people's perspectives in this thread. I don't want to try and shut it down or discourage communication, but I would like us to be aiming for concrete suggestions for RnD. 

Here's a few that were brought up:

▪ A common topic seems to be the workshop style nature of the space. Finn pointed out that it's not easy to make a distinction between clean/dirty projects, and we certainly do miss having separate rooms. Moving space is something we're going to be doing in the future, and that's already a major one on the list of considerations for properties the board is looking at. 

▪ Another thing, is range of projects at the space. There is a lot of 'functional' stuff going on, and a couple of people have said they'd feel more at home if more people were working on aesthetic projects. While we can't make people work on different projects, we can make sure that people are aware the space is for all sorts of arts, crafts and tinkerings. If you hear anyone implying otherwise, take them aside and gently correct them. 

There are so many benefits to 'cross-pollination' of different hobbies and interests that I'm not even going to try to explain why we want to see more. 

▪ Running workshops on various topics with broader appeal. Fantastic idea. Anyone have any ideas for topics? 

▪ Also, bear in mind the space has a wiki for people to post their projects, tools, or guides on how to make things. Here's a simple one I made on creating stamps: http://hackerspace.pbworks.com/w/page/49197276/Passport%20Stamps Feel free to add your own pages and share something you're passionate about.

▪ Increasing the diversity of the people and projects in the 'advertising material'. Good idea. Bear in mind that the total of material up till now has been whatever blog pics we've managed to do after each activity. If you know a good shot showing off a cool project or group event, sent it to us and we'll put in on the site. 

▪ If you've got a project you've been working on and want to share, please let us me or Max know and we'll post it on the blog.  There's a lot of cool projects going on in the space and we'd love to share them with the world. (Send us a couple of pics and a writeup, or just the pics and we'll write something)

A couple from me:

▪ Encourage new people to come along. If you've got a friend who's a bit 'crafty', why not mention the place and bring them along one weekend. If they've got a project they're working on, bring that along too! (And if they don't why not browse thingiverse and see if they'd like to lasercut or print something when they're here)

▪ Welcoming new members into the space. Max and I usually do this, but it's up to everyone, and it can be overlooked when we're all busy desperately finishing off our projects and keeping our heads down. If you see someone wandering in and looking a little lost, make sure to give them a wave and welcome them in. Briefly show off a project you're working on, explain what others in the room are doing, and if you have time show them around. Everyone's been the new person at some point and,  getting a nice reception means feeling a lot more welcome.

Cheers,

Gavin 

P.S. One observation, minor enough to make it a footnote:  the change in layout from Rockdale to Gladesville wasn't just house to workshop. In Rockdale it was a largeish living room with couches pulled up to trestle tables, and I noticed it was easy for 'cliques' to form. You'd have to decide carefully where to sit. Not the least of which is because if you got in early you'd literally have to climb over people to get out, so was important to choose people you like, or that were at least easily climbable.

In Gladesville, there's a lot more freedom to mill about, and people seem to mix more easily. But I understand that the workshop environment isn't as familiar or friendly to everyone. (I certainly took some getting used to it, and I'm at home on steel mills and industrial plants regularly)

[Praetorian_TMOTC]

Hello all,

Have to say, after reading the entire thread that I enjoyed it. It's great to see other's perspectives on issues such as equality and stereotyping. One thing that I always had in mind when we started the RoboDojo space in Campbelltown was that we always ensure that we don't limit what or who we are as a space down to just electronics or computers or any one interest.

One of the things that I'm proud of our space is that we have quite the ratio of male:female attendees! When we started and the initial group were all male, I figured that we would always have this issue of balance at the space. Fortunately though I was able to invite a close female friend of mine (who is also a friend of my wife) and with a couple of other women who have came along over time, we now have a group of people that like to branch off an do different things that they're currently working on, but we all work on some projects together.

While I'm certainly not stereotyping it just so happens that we have a knitting circle starting and in the past we have also had embroidery on a rather fancy machine that was fun for both genders, so whilst it was a female driven project, most of the male members also shared interest in learning about embroidery (I was excited to learn how to create text on the machine). 

What I'm trying to get at is that I feel we have a good balance of equality at our space and I would like to thank the female posters on this topic for their courage to speak up as it greatly helps identify and therefore potentially realign any inequalities faced from either demographic. These points that have been identified here will greatly help me to ensure that when we do eventually settle on a more dedicated location for our space, we'll do our best to create a friendly environment for all.

Adrian.

[kris]

As others have mentioned the physical space itself isn't ideal for new
people, of any gender. Its very in your face and you are presented with
everything at once.
And now that it's been pointed out to me; i can see how an autoshop
would be particularly alien for those who don't spend time in one (for
whatever purpose).
We do need to find a new space, so perhaps people can keep there eye out
for one and maybe have a think about what a space that is neutral for
everyone would look like. I never saw the old house and i imagined that
the many rooms would be more daunting as you would feel your were
intruding even more (where as the open plan allows for standing in the
corner without looking too out of place).

When i first visited the space, i did (and still do) find it a bit
clique'y. Our social structure means we will give preference to people
we know and like over strangers. So if i'm busy in a project with
somoene whom i've known for years, i may appear cold or indifferent to a
stranger who requires my time.
The name badges help address this a little bit i think, please do keep
wearing them.

I'm not super shy, but i find social situations uncomfortable. The space
is an odd mix of formal induction and social pecking order. It makes
becoming a regular member a little bit daunting (at least for me).
HOWEVER, i did persevere and while I'm not expecting to be invited to
anyone's wedding i get a wave and a hello when show up.

I am not saying that those who feel singled out because of their gender
were simply shy and should have tried harder. I really am not saying
that. I went home after my first visit and had a think about what i
expected, or how my experience could have been better.
I found that the equipment there was good but unfamiliar, the laser
cutter i could not use without induction, but the drill press and solder
station i could. The giant cnc machine i could use, but only if i got it
working first (beyond my skills*). Certain materials i could use for
free, others i could not. The rules of the space were not obvious. And
that contributed to my feeling that i was in intruding.

To that end i hope to make the space more friendly to new comers by
labeling equipment with links to the wiki. It might not be much but i'm
hoping it will make the transition from list to visitor, easier.
It is very easy to say "just ask someone and they will tell you/ show
you" but, for me at least, i felt awkward interrupting someone who was
knee deep in tech.

While i hate to admit it, i have been guilty of sexism, of the
manspalaining. I'm hoping i've never done it at the space, but you get
exposed to a pattern for long enough you start to expect it. Tech
support calls for me typically go "hi i have a problem with X" female
voice replies: "i'll put you through to tech support" Male voice "how
can i help?". I'm not excusing my behaviour just perhaps offering an
insight to why it happened. But it's also not saying that i thought the
lady i was talking to wasn't intelligent, just that i assumed the lady
was not skilled in the area i was calling about. I like to think (that
now) i treat everyone at face value regardless of gender (or any other
irrelevant attribute).
Equally i have taken my 15 month old baby out on trips and errands
during working hours. And the number of people who assume my wife has
DIED OR IS INCAPACITATED because I'm not at work or she isn't here with
baby is staggering. Sexism happens from both sides and not speaking out
will just continue that. So here i am, saying I've done it, and I've had
it done to me (and i'm saying if i do it to you, please tell me).

I understand the cars in the space might be going soon, perhaps we can
create some more spaces that will allow different types of projects. I
would like to make a large paper mache octopus and a faux leather
computer case**.

and so to come full circle on this message:
I really enjoyed the ROS introduction that Gav ran, I wish i felt
skilled enough in a particular area to run one myself. I think it was a
great way to see that space and meet the people who run it. We should
have more.

Perhaps a general space induction run at a specific time on a Saturday
might be a good idea. Say at 12pm a keyholder/boardmember will explain
what we have, who we are, and why there are so many daleks.
Just 5 minutes.

Kris
maker of things
feeder of babies


*at the moment!

**the projects aren't related to each other.

[Luke Weston]

Ultimately, if you happen to take some photo of the people using the space on some given day and 100% of the people of the frame of the photo are men, and that's just the way it is.

You wouldn't want to, say, "set up" the photo by introducing a couple of women just for the purpose of that photo, that's kind of a little bit dishonest or misleading.

If the average gender demographic is not considered optimal, then work on changing it, but be honest about accepting what it currently is.

[ada]

On Apr 23, 9:49 am, Max Nippard <mnipp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If anyone wants to suggest ways to improve the group but doesn't feel like
> posting it publicly, please use bo...@robodino.org.

Getting rid of sexist commentary and insults in the space would be a
good start.

Getting rid of mansplaining on the mailing list.

I've set up the sewing machine in on a more permanent table together
with some small accessories for sewing which were packed away in
boxes. Chris has kindly done a massive amount of culling and cleaning
up of the fabrics and patterns and there is now a box of fabric for
giveaway; it will go to the fabric choppy death of doom in 1-2 weeks
unless a good home is found earlier (if you want to take it home to
give to someone who sews that's fine!) - we are not a no-kill fabric
shelter.

[David]

kudos for the new term!

http://mansplained.tumblr.com/
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mansplain

I know (guiltily) my gf and aunt will have use for it...

[Robert Roberto]

Hey guys,

Just my two cents but, is it possible we might be looking at the issue back asswards. It might help that we not assume what women want or prefer, but rather ask the existing female members what they most like/hate about the space and take it as a que as to what could be improved or worked on. It may be the case that a significant amount of potential female members have already considered visiting/joining but haven't felt an overwhelming urge to visit/join due to preferences in aesthetics, atmosphere or compatibility.
It might also be that the aggregate of all projects showcased so far do not appeal to alot of people (of both genders) with regards to what they picture themselves making/contributing when the case may be that they are entirely suited to the space. Encouraging people to share their projects and achievements as Gav suggested may help in this regard.
Asserting there is in fact a problem with the ratio may be a problem in and of itself. Making jokes regarding gender aren't exactly constructive but on the flipside I personally feel that leaning towards strict PC policies can only detract from the appeal of the space (most people have places to go where there is a distinct lack of laughter, I think its called work).
Chris mentioned that there might be an issue with initial visits. When I first visited the new space in Gladesville I had been a full time member technically (but hadn't the chance to visit Rockdale after the first visit even after paying a years membership due to work hours and responsibilities) and was at first put off by the lack of engagement. I personally don't have any problem with initiating conversation but that may not be the case for other people and could be perceived as cold and indifferent. I know that Gav, Max and Frank do an excellent job of welcoming visitors to the space but can only imagine that it can be tedious on the busier days to repeat the same thing over and over. It might be an idea to ask for volunteers to act as liaisons to anyone who has prearranged a visit via the list, so that even if most people are "in the zone" as it were or deep in concentration, there is someone who can assume the responsibility of showing them around and taking the lead in responding to any inquiries the visitor may have and help distribute the workload.
I know delegating that responsibility may seem a bit formal but have you ever stood in a small crowd at a pedestrian crossing where everyone assumes that someone else has or will press the button to cross but no-one does, I've seen a similar thing happen several times especially late on saturday afternoons, when a visitor pops in ( as in everyone assumes that someone else will welcome them and show them around ).
With regards to the gender ratio issue, if I may suggest an idea.

A marketing campaign of a purely fictional nature, outlining the plight of the female members being outnumbered by their male counterparts, encouraging females to help them bolster their numbers and end the tyranny of men:-)  again all in a playful and humourous way.
I know it sounds more like something a business would do, but I don't think there's any harm in taking what works, and using it for our own ends.

If there's anything I've said that anyone is offended by please direct your flaming to my email address rather than the list as I feel that this discussion can lead to positive results.

Ps If its possible to populate/decorate the space with artworks and/or projects by members it might help alleviate the distinct workshop feel of the space. Rather than reserving a small space to showcase them. Oh and sorry bout the rant :(

[Robert Roberto]

Rereading my post I should have started with Hi Everybody. I mean "guys" in the most inclusive way that it can be interpreted as. Having said that, hey gals :p

[ada]

On May 8, 9:12 pm, Robert Roberto <teche...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rereading my post I should have started with Hi Everybody. I mean "guys" in
> the most inclusive way that it can be interpreted as. Having said that, hey
> gals :p

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MenAreGenericWomenAreSpecial

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/03/21/hey_guys/

http://www.wakemag.org/voices/i%E2%80%99m-a-woman-not-a-girl-you-sexist-shit-head/