calender control on a dw
Matthew Green
controll
i guess it can be coded , but it could not have been much to do
Matt
Dave Fish [Team Sybase]
feature for PB 11. By the way, PB 11 is scheduled to have a much
needed face lift in terms of the UI you can create with PowerBuilder.
I'll post a list of planned enhancements in another thread.
Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase
On 3 Aug 2004 01:54:01 -0700, "Matthew Green"
brettweaver
I am so looking forward to creating software which has a
look and feel more modern than 1991.
Better integration of sound and/or multi media would be
cool, too.
I know we can achieve a lot with dll's but its nice to have
it built in and easy.
Terry Voth
http://www.techno-kitten.com/Changes_to_PowerBuilder/New_in_PowerBuilder_10/PB10New_-_New_Controls/pb10new_-_new_controls.html
would be step in the right direction? <g>
Good luck,
Terry [TeamSybase] and Sequel the techno-kitten
Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
^ ^
o o
=*=
Dave Fish [Team Sybase]
Dave
On 3 Aug 2004 15:05:40 -0700, Brett Weaver wrote:
Richard Keller
"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
news:41102cef....@forums.sybase.com...
Richard Keller
community of developers like hmmmm... Power J.
Sad for the bet 4GL in history. A integrated Calender Control as an
Editmask is a massive undertaking requiring thousands of hours of
development. It should have taken a few days and that includes testing.
"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
news:410f6253...@forums.sybase.com...
Dave Fish [Team Sybase]
do realize that you can spot a PB application a mile away and that
isn't always a positive comment.
Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase
On 4 Aug 2004 00:20:05 -0700, "Richard Keller"
Daniel Coppersmith
else. Sure, a calendar control is neat, but is it more important than
application server integration? Is it more important than PBNI? Is it more
important than XML generation? Maybe, maybe not.
As someone who sells software, I understand your complaint about wanting to
deliver something that doesn't look "retro". But I also understand Sybase's
need to prioritize. I've got a vocal client who's been asking for a neat
feature, but the community as a whole is asking for something else. What do
I do? I prioritize what we deliver to please the masses and make the vocal
customer upset. He thinks we're not doing anything, because he doesn't have
his feature and he doesn't care what everyone else is doing.
And let's let the PowerJ thing go, once and for all. The product was not
making any money and it was not a loss leader. If the company went out of
business because they were still supporting products that were not making
any money on in any fashion, would we all be in the newsgroup saying, "well,
they're bankrupt, but I sure do admire their tenacity for supporting Visual
RPG!" Let's go the Microsoft newsgroups and complain about how they
discontinued Microsoft Bob.
Cut them some slack. In age where budgets are being slashed, it's ALL about
resources.
"Richard Keller" <ric...@kellersystems.com> wrote in message
news:41109102$1@forums-2-dub...
Dave Fish [Team Sybase]
engineer estimates that the effort is easy to moderate and will take
about 1 person month to implement. That is the development effort. Add
the Q/A and documentation effort to that and you have probably a
couple of person months time to implement this feature.
I thought there were a number of third party controls out there that
developers could use to simulate this feature. Typically when there is
a work around then an item is given a lower priority.
Regards,
Dave
On 4 Aug 2004 00:27:27 -0700, "Richard Keller"
Matthew Green
change,
ok i don't know anything about how its coded etc... but for any change that
takes a month for
us is a major change.... i guess its all relative
Matt
"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
news:4110d4ff....@forums.sybase.com...
Dave Fish [Team Sybase]
a 3GL you have to add time to the schedule. Why do you think so many
Java projects are over budget and late <g> (sorry, I can't help myself
sometimes).
Anyway extra time is probably needed to make sure that the new edit
mask doesn't break something else. The DataWindow code line is
enormous.
Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase
On 4 Aug 2004 06:42:00 -0700, "Matthew Green"
Matthew Green
Matt
"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
news:4110f3c5....@forums.sybase.com...
philipsalgannik
with one ass?
You fall on your ass. This is what your post essentially
suggests for Sybase.
When you see a smallest workaroundable bug in PB, the
whining and ranting against Sybase's QA is enormous.
And yet "it should have taken a few days and that includes
testing."
I wonder how long the place were you work will stay in
business if You do the same...
Raj
sticking around Powerbuilder for so many years ?. It's becauase of it's
strength and promising for new things. Though Sybase is trying to convert PB
into .NET or PB into JAVA, but they should give some more features for C/S
developers too.
It would be great if they incorporate many of the nice features of PFC
inbuilt into PB, for instance Resize service, we don't need to tag 10 pbls
just of one or two services.
-Raj
"Matthew Green" <m...@powersoft-services.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4110f8fd$1@forums-1-dub...
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
--
Roy
Richard Keller
Power++ in an attempt to appease the buzz monsters. I do not even care
about the calendar control mentioned in this thread as it can be implemented
in many ways.
I simply didn't like the Retro comment. It's not a funny thing that PB
applications look dated. I am very patient and I believe that we should not
readily accept the "PB11 will update the look and feel" tagline. WE ARE
YEARS FROM WINDOWS 95 and the majority of the applications built in PB look
the same.
I do care that the priority has always seemed to be filling in buzz words
and not staying at the front of the original core market. Microsoft always
updates the UI to separate its tools and applications to differentiate
itself from the other software providers. This is why icons, buttons, etc.
are always changed. It shows the age of other software applications. It is
a Graphical User Interface and they understand it's as much the way it looks
as the way it works.
If you were demonstrating applications that are superior on every level from
functionality to scalability and have to hear "that looks like a
"PowerBuilder" application" and a negative comments about Sybase from their
respective IT representatives, you would change the priorities and make them
go away. Ignorance or confusion about feature set is not a defense during
the sales process.
This great tool should be transparent and you should not be able to tell
that it is built using PB or Visual Studio, it's as simple as that.
Oh, and the slack and budget thing is another BS excuse to subsidize poor
performance and an incomplete strategy. Software sales have continued to
grow in a sluggish market, costs are fixed within reasons, and wages have
been stable for years. The wheat is separated from the chaff during the
difficult times. These difficult times have been brought down on ourselves.
The lack of focus by management and our community for not helping with
achieving that focus has let market share dwindle to a pulse that may be
impossible to return from. When the game changes you adapt your game to
win.
There are a number of positive changes primarily PocketBuilder, but you
can't escape the obvious. If I hammer a nail with a hammer or use a nail
gun the homeowner should not be able to tell.
Just one more note. If the Datawindow.Net control is not available as
source code then it will have a hard time competing against other vendors
who license the source to attract ISV's or Corporate/Government clients that
will not buy a proprietary control no matter how good it is. Write that
one down, it's a my crystal ball prediction.
Rich
Terry Voth
.NET. (Just to clarify. <g>)
Also note that Dave has mentioned in another thread that UI features
are definitely on the PB11 list. We'll probably hear about these at
TechWave (in two weeks time), if not before.
BTW, I'm not sure I agree that some of these PFC features should be
incorporated. There's a lot of power in having these available in
PowerScript, so that if we need to customize, the code is right there
to copy, change, extend, override, etc.... If there's a bug, we can
fix it in minutes instead of waiting months for Sybase to provide a
release. Plus, the code is a great educational tool, IMHO.
Plus, going back to Phil's point, why do we want Sybase to embed in
the product functionality that we can build ourselves much more
simply? Let them focus on the stuff we can't.
But then again, I'm biased. (Go up on CodeXchange next week to see
what I'm talking about. <BG>)
Good luck,
Terry [TeamSybase] and Sequel the techno-kitten
On 4 Aug 2004 08:47:30 -0700, "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]"
<roy.k...@teamsybase.com> wrote:
>Last I've checked, the .NET framework offers a gamut of C/S features...
Richard Keller
We have been in business over 8 years and our applications have 100's of
users that use it to manufacture, purchase and ship the items out. I
personally started it with PowerBuilder on my kitchen table at 22 years old
with no venture financing. I was young and naive with the greatest tool of
it's time and have done Billions of commerce through my software. I am not
ignorant nor foolish. Nor do I discount the strengths of this tool. I have
personally invested millions of my money in basing our platform on it, so I
have a vested interest in it's success. The prospect of migrating this
level of application to another language is almost frightening. But every
day, I wonder should we do it now before it is too late.
So, I understand the importance and do not take this subject lightly. We
are a real-time enterprise application with automation, it gets no more
mission critical unless you are in air traffic control or space systems.
You would never see any of the qualified competent users that develop for a
living complain about a bug that can be easily worked around. Do not lump
me into that group.
If anyone thinks that a calendar control is a difficult programming task and
requires one month of development time and 2 months of Q/A time, you should
reevaluate the situation. It simply does not. The size of the company
never changes the amount of time it takes to develop the solution.
My guess is historically the developers on the PB product are immensly
talented and like working on cool stuff. Who doesn't especially with that
talent?? Unfortunately this will always bring a culture of contempt towards
tasks like a calendar control, it's simply not cool. It is way to easy to
come up with plausible excuses for why that is not the next thing to do.
"Development is about a month and Q/A will take months to test it and then
documentation will have to be changed' , yep that'll do it. That's purely a
guess. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I've done the same thing myself.
Rich
<Philip Salgannik> wrote in message
news:4110ff81.385...@sybase.com...
Richard Keller
about the big picture. An edit mask feature is not a high priority for
anyone. Just do not BS the community with a Datetime control is a
multi-month project, we all know that it is not. The engineers who quoted
that to me would be reprimanded, immediately and in front of everyone. It's
called Sandbagging and it is the most expensive cost of development. It's
opportunity cost + a cultural precedence.
That last sentenance will make an Management slide somewhere someday. God,
I miss being a developer.
Rich
"Terry Voth" <seq...@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
news:7722h05o3e6fv6e0t...@4ax.com...
Dave Fish [Team Sybase]
reserve. It was my own guess that the QA and documentation effort
would take about one month total. I've added management reserve to
that estimate as well. Until you go through the preliminary design
phase any estimate you make will be ball park.
PowerBuilder undergoes manual and automated Q/A testing. This requires
development of test plans, test scripts, implementation of the testing
and of course problem resolution if required.
In any event, the length of time it takes to implement a feature is
not the primary determinant in whether that feature will be
implemented. Proposed features are categorized, prioritized, and then
product management and engineering come up with the features list with
input from people such as myself and Jim O'Neil. It isn't a perfect
process and there is no way to please everyone with the selected
feature set.
The PowerBuilder engineering team does have limited resources and
certain features have to be cut or the release has to be delayed. This
is true for every product by every manufacturer. Remember, Sybase was
losing a lot of money back in 1996 and 1997. A lot of tough choices
had to be made and cost cutting implemented to return the company to
profitability. As much as people worry about the future of
PowerBuilder today, I think it had a much more uncertain future back
seven or eight years ago.
PB 11 will offer improved UI features for the applications you
develop. Engineering also wants to update the UI of PB itself. But
given the fact that we can do one or the other (but not both) which
would you rather have? An enhanced PB IDE user interface, or the
ability to deliver more modern looking applications to your customers?
If you would choose the former I would like to know why.
Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase
On 4 Aug 2004 09:56:29 -0700, "Richard Keller"
Dave Fish [Team Sybase]
Seriously I often feel that I am in the trenches with the developers
and forget that I represent the vendor. My retro comment was not
intended to be taken as an official position by Sybase.
As for your skepticism about PB 11 offering an updated look and feel,
I understand why you might feel that way. We have been talking of
doing this for some time now and it never seems to make it into the
release. Sybase employees like Jim O'Neil and myself have long
advocated UI improvements and so has TeamSybase. In fact the new UI
controls in PB 10 (animation control, MonthCalendar, and Flat Style
property on command and picture buttons) are a direct result of
feedback from TeamSybase members. PB 10.0.1 will introduce rich ink
controls for Tablet PC support and PB 11 is slated to have a number of
improvements that I will post in a separate thread. I would be
interested in hearing what you think of the proposed enhancements and
what you think is missing.
Talk is cheap, I realize, but PB 11 is the first release in a long
time where I have seen a detailed list of UI enhancements along with
schedule estimates put forward by engineering.
This is great feedback though. Keep it coming folks.
Regards,
Dave Fish
On 4 Aug 2004 09:20:02 -0700, "Richard Keller"
Terry Voth
implementing a feature are completely different things. We don't have
to worry about IDE integration, PowerScript integration, property
pages, compatibility with class definition functionality, compiler
acceptance, enumerated data types, drag/drop integration, etc.... We'd
just load the OLE control, hard code some attribute settings, and be
done with it.
Sorry, but I'm on the other side of the coin. It's been a long time
since compiler theory courses, but if someone came to me and said they
could integrate a new functionality like this into a compiler/IDE as
big as PB in "a few days", I'd be raising my eyebrows....
Good luck,
Terry [TeamSybase] and Sequel the techno-kitten
On 4 Aug 2004 10:16:42 -0700, "Richard Keller"
Richard Keller
touched for awhile, it is not user facing.
It would be "cool" to look like Visual Studio, but not on my personal radar
at all. I remember the 7.0 release vividly and not with fondness. But if a
new IDE meant PB in Visual Studio, I would be all for it. But if you are
moving to .Net and by all accounts you are, do not focus on maintaining a
seperate IDE for very long. Don't waste time on a fully seperate IDE if the
results are even remotely close to 6.5 >> 7.0. That statement will cause
some flames for sure. Funny thing, since a big chunk of Powerbuilder is
written in Powerbuilder a significant amount of the IDE would migrate
automatically. I personally do not think both at the same time is
unreasonable. But you probably know that I have high expectations.
The culture of time contrainsts and resources and the can't be done attitude
is somewhat frightening. I have seen some amazing things with the proper
motivation and leadership. You have been on PB for a long time, you know
what I speak of. If Powerbuilder was on the cutting block in 1996/1997 at
the height of it's popularity then I would have a bleaker outlook today. It
almost feels like a dragging out. I remember the Easter Egg in PB 7 that
said "Legacy my Ass". Make it real.
Rich
"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
news:411117ba....@forums.sybase.com...
Richard Keller
on IBM C and converted the old Pick operating system programs. There are
still companies out there that use it. Scary but true.
My guesses are not far off base. Most of the implementation has been done
before and they are built off another compiler, C++. Can anyone confirm
that PB is a stand-alone machine level compiler?? A flag that compiles to
machine code is not what I am talking about. I believe that it is not, I do
not know. I've also been under the belief that some of PB IDE is
Powerbuilder itself as well.
I am not here to argue a feature that I do not care about. Most of the
remaining PB community is complacent with it's attitude towards the tool and
accept rhetoric as facts. Your list of reasons is exactly what I talked
about earlier.
Rich
p.s. here a link to the C++ control to the proper event.
http://www.codeproject.com/miscctrl/minicalendar.asp
"Terry Voth" <seq...@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
news:k372h0lfee72r5n05...@4ax.com...
Richard Keller
urgency is so important. There has been great progress, but a job half
done is not finished. Keep up with the good work, push for PB 11 by
Techwave. Ok, I'm kidding. We can wait until Sept. ;)
Rich
"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
news:41111b9b....@forums.sybase.com...
Raj
since it's inception ( or since pb 3.0) . You can easily tell whether it's a
PB Application or not by looking it. I want deployed application with
greater look, greater performance in terms of speed, faster redrawing
capabilities and rich GUI.
What we have rightnow in Powerbuilder is more than enough IDE capabilities
and other integration features. One release of greater concentration of GUI
improvments will really worth.
-Raj
"Terry Voth" <seq...@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
news:k372h0lfee72r5n05...@4ax.com...
Dave Fish [Team Sybase]
is improving. PB 7 and PB 8 were probably its nadir. You will see some
pretty amazing previews at TechWave including DataWindow .NET with
WebForms support and a PB .NET compiler that can create WinForms or
WebForms applications from your PB client/server applications. This
isn't vaporware or smoke and mirrors. I don't want to imply that these
features are nearly done but when I saw them two weeks ago it knocked
my socks off.
A Linux version of the PBVM is in process and will allow you to run PB
components on EAServer on the Linux platform or using WebLogic or
WebSphere with PBridge from Sunnlly.
We also have some cool DataWindow and Flash integration in the works
and the UI enhancements that are planned. I've never seen the PB
development team so enthusiastic as they are about what they can
deliver in PB 11 and we have a lot of momentum going. I haven't felt
this good about PB in a long time.
I agree with you about the danger of a can't be done attitude. In this
case though I think it is more of an attitude of how can we deliver a
quality release with the best and most desired features in a timely
manner.
Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase
On 4 Aug 2004 11:13:45 -0700, "Richard Keller"
patmadigan
discussion about PB's future.
For me, the biggest issue is the low quality of graphing in PB. I'm tired
of my users utilizing my killer application as a datasource for their Excel
graphs. Every report has a Save As button on it.
Give us a modern GUI, with high quality graphing, and maybe native PDF
capability (w/o the freeware PDF generator requirement)... stuff we can use
now.
Pat
"Raj" <ra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:411136bb$1@forums-1-dub...
Richard Keller
support. I can tell you that it was not hard to build a quality looking
framework with Infragistics and migrating the Visual Datawindows ( mostly
reports and inquires ) to the .Net platform. It looked like a quality
production application. This took a week to Prototype.
We now have more .Net developers even though the primary application is PB.
The PB wins in productivity but loses in adoption support. It's hard to
justify having new people learn a tool that we may have to phase out soon if
our needs are not meet. Talented people do not want to vest their time in a
tool that will not provide them jobs. If it wasn't for the .Net carrot
hanging in front of us for the last 24 months we would be gone already.
That and I do not want to be imprudent and bail in the 8th inning and you
guys finally strike lighting twice. Despite all of my hot air today, in my
heart I am a believer.
It will be much harder on the Sybase bottomline to sell $500 Datawindow.Net
vs $3000 Powerbuilder's. I still believe that PB, Datawindow.Net and
Pocketbuilder should not be seperated. Visual Studio is a foundation
application, IMHO Powerbuilder bundled is more attractive then a specialized
toolset resulting from products seperating. Your going to waste alot of
marketing dollars and sales segmentation in an effort to focus temporarily
on the new things and then try and come back with the PB11 Super Studio when
it materializes. Do not focus marketing on the Datawindow.Net control set,
you are not prepared to assault the .Net controls and tools market. They
will tear you apart. Lay low, nail PB11 reinvigorate your install base,
wake them up, rebrand Powerbuilder as PB.Net go after the microsoft user
groups and rest of the community and draw the line there or throw the
division out. Make it the corporate mantra that you will draw the line
there and fight to the last man. I do not want to hear about PB12 when PB11
comes out, like we are now, it's almost insulting. I want to have people
internal and external talking about PB11. Why don't you post a NON OFFICAL
version of the options being considered and let us help fill in the
priorities. A detailed spreadsheet, not a generic survey by a 3rd party
too late in the cycle to really make a difference. It'll make Techwave
exciting and I can espouse my grand wisdom or lack thereof.
This user group is the last bastion of heavy Powerbuilder activity and one
of the most loyal and active in the industry.
Rich
"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
news:41114b7d...@forums.sybase.com...