SWMM-USERS Digest - 20 Nov 2009 to 24 Nov 2009 (#2009-122)
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There are 9 messages totalling 832 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Time Series Plots
2. Time Series Plots - reply(1) (2)
3. SWMM 5.0.018 Now Available - comment on the new RDII features
4. Full Dynamic Wave Analysis (5)
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Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:08:43 +1000
From: George Wolvaardt <George.W...@KBR.COM>
Subject: Time Series Plots
I cannot get the Time Series Plot dialog box to accept more than one
object at a time. When I press the [+] button, it simply duplicates the
object which was first selected. How do I fix that?=20
Much appreciated.
=20
George Wolvaardt
Kellogg Brown & Root Pty Ltd
Australia
This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and p=
rivileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any re=
view, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. =
=20If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive inform=
ation for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-m=
ail and delete all copies of this message.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 03:35:22 -0700
From: Robert Dickinson <Robert.E....@US.MWHGLOBAL.COM>
Subject: Re: Time Series Plots - reply(1)
Hi George,
It does work, you just need to use the mouse and select a new object to be plotted outside of the Time Series Plot before clicking on the [+] button.
Best and Kind Regards,
Robert Dickinson
SW/WW Technical Engineering Specialist
MWH Soft, Inc
9340 Pontiac Drive Tel: 813-712-0664
Tampa, Florida, 33626 Alt: 813-494-2919
USA
robert.d...@mwhsoft.com
www.mwhsoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of George Wolvaardt
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:09 AM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Time Series Plots
I cannot get the Time Series Plot dialog box to accept more than one
object at a time. When I press the [+] button, it simply duplicates the
object which was first selected. How do I fix that?
Much appreciated.
George Wolvaardt
Kellogg Brown & Root Pty Ltd
Australia
This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive information for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:09:05 -0700
From: Robert Dickinson <Robert.E....@US.MWHGLOBAL.COM>
Subject: Re: SWMM 5.0.018 Now Available - comment on the new RDII features
This is a good update, Lew and builds on the significant improvements in SW=
MM 5.0.017. I especially liked the improvements in the RDII flow generatio=
n after SWMM 5.0.017 as it now allows the user to use an RDII time step sma=
ller than the precipitation interval by selecting a smaller WET time step i=
n SWMM. This allows SWMM 5 to better model flashy UH's and coincidently pr=
ovides a better match between SWMM 4 and SWMM 5 for those UH's with a time =
base (or T*K value) smaller than the precipitation interval. SWMM 5 also h=
as a integrated approach to the RDII sewershed storage calculations for con=
tinuous models which makes it an improvement over the SWMM 4 piecewise mont=
hly linear RDII storage calculations.
Robert E Dickinson
Technical Engineering Specialist
MWH Soft, Inc
9340 Pontiac Drive Tel: 813-712-0664
Tampa, Florida, 33626 Alt: 813-494-2919
USA
robert.d...@mwhsoft.com
www.mwhsoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Lewi=
s Rossman
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:47 PM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] SWMM 5.0.018 Now Available
A new update of SWMM 5, release 5.0.018, is now available from
www.epa.gov/ednnrmrl/models/swmm.
This update corrects a bug that sometimes prevented Status Report files
from being automatically deleted from a users TEMP folder after they
were no longer needed. Users should check their TEMP folders (usually in
c:\Documents and Settings\<User Name>\Local Settings\Temp) to see if its
full of old files that begin with "swm". These can safely be deleted and
should not appear again once you upgrade to version 5.0.018.
We also made the project input file created for use by SWMM's Add-On
Tools contain all project data, including map coordinates and element
tags.
Other changes are listed in the Updates and Bug Fixes file available on
the web site.
Thanks again for your continued interest and support.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------
Lewis Rossman
Environmental Scientist
Water Supply and Water Resources Division
U.S Environmental Protection Agency
email: rossma...@epa.gov
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:48:38 -0800
From: "McRae, Kirby" <Kirby...@AECOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Time Series Plots - reply(1)
Hi
We've noticed this behavior with ver. 5.0.018 too. However, it is
intermittent and we havn't figured out what is causing it yet.
Kirby McRae, P.Eng.
Senior Municipal Engineer, Community Infrastructure
AECOM
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of
Robert Dickinson
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 4:35 AM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Time Series Plots - reply(1)
Hi George,
It does work, you just need to use the mouse and select a new object to
be plotted outside of the Time Series Plot before clicking on the [+]
button.
Best and Kind Regards,
Robert Dickinson
SW/WW Technical Engineering Specialist
MWH Soft, Inc
9340 Pontiac Drive Tel: 813-712-0664
Tampa, Florida, 33626 Alt: 813-494-2919
USA
robert.d...@mwhsoft.com
www.mwhsoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of
George Wolvaardt
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:09 AM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Time Series Plots
I cannot get the Time Series Plot dialog box to accept more than one
object at a time. When I press the [+] button, it simply duplicates the
object which was first selected. How do I fix that?
Much appreciated.
George Wolvaardt
Kellogg Brown & Root Pty Ltd
Australia
This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and
privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
review, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to
receive information for the intended recipient), please contact the
sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:51:49 -0800
From: "Rounds, Michael" <Michael...@AECOM.COM>
Subject: Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using
full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and
pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output
data? Thank you.=20
=20
Michael A. Rounds, E.I.T.
Project Specialist
Environment
D 503.227.1042 x 17
michael...@aecom.com <mailto:john.pe...@aecom.com>=20
=20
AECOM
333 SW Fifth Avenue, Suite 225, Portland, OR 97204
T 503.227.1042 F 503.227.1048
www.aecom.com <http://www.aecom.com/>=20
=20
=20
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail=20
=20
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:33:32 -0800
From: "Pang, Joseph" <Josep...@SEATTLE.GOV>
Subject: Re: Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I believe it doesn't as SWMM uses Preissmann Slot approach to model pressurized condition. As far as SWMM is concerned, the pipe does not leave the state of open channel flow. It has a thin slot called the Preissmann Slot attached to the crown of the pipe. Preissmann Slot is a common approach for the application of the St. Venant Equations of Continuity and Momentum to pipe surcharge condition. In addition to SWMM, such approach is also found in other modeling softwares that use the St. Venant equations. One school of thought that I've read about using such approach is that it simplifies and smoothens the modeling of transitions between open channel to surcharge conditions as the model would not need to switch between governing equations which can potentially lead to further numerical instability. This would be especially so when a pipe is at the verge of being surcharged.
Hope this helps.
Joseph
Joseph Pang, PE
Seattle Public Utilities
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Michael Rounds
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:52 AM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using
full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and
pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output
data? Thank you.
Michael A. Rounds, E.I.T.
Project Specialist
Environment
D 503.227.1042 x 17
michael...@aecom.com <mailto:john.pe...@aecom.com>
AECOM
333 SW Fifth Avenue, Suite 225, Portland, OR 97204
T 503.227.1042 F 503.227.1048
www.aecom.com <http://www.aecom.com/>
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:05:55 -0500
From: Lewis Rossman <Rossma...@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I have to correct one aspect of Joseph's response. What he says about
the Preissmann slot is no doubt true in general, but SWMM does not use
the slot approach to model pressurized pipe flow. Instead it uses what
can be called the Roesner-Shubinski-Aldrich surcharge algorithm. The
algorithm includes a smoothing function that is applied over the
transition zone between open channel and pressurized flow. More details
can be found in the original Extran documentation or in the SWMM 5
Quality Assurance report that is available on the EPA SWMM web site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lewis Rossman
Environmental Scientist
Water Supply and Water Resources Division
U.S Environmental Protection Agency
email: rossma...@epa.gov
From: "Pang, Joseph" <Josep...@SEATTLE.GOV>
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Date: 11/24/2009 02:40 PM
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I believe it doesn't as SWMM uses Preissmann Slot approach to model
pressurized condition. As far as SWMM is concerned, the pipe does not
leave the state of open channel flow. It has a thin slot called the
Preissmann Slot attached to the crown of the pipe. Preissmann Slot is a
common approach for the application of the St. Venant Equations of
Continuity and Momentum to pipe surcharge condition. In addition to
SWMM, such approach is also found in other modeling softwares that use
the St. Venant equations. One school of thought that I've read about
using such approach is that it simplifies and smoothens the modeling of
transitions between open channel to surcharge conditions as the model
would not need to switch between governing equations which can
potentially lead to further numerical instability. This would be
especially so when a pipe is at the verge of being surcharged.
Hope this helps.
Joseph
Joseph Pang, PE
Seattle Public Utilities
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of
Michael Rounds
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:52 AM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using
full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and
pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output
data? Thank you.
Michael A. Rounds, E.I.T.
Project Specialist
Environment
D 503.227.1042 x 17
michael...@aecom.com <mailto:john.pe...@aecom.com>
AECOM
333 SW Fifth Avenue, Suite 225, Portland, OR 97204
T 503.227.1042 F 503.227.1048
www.aecom.com <http://www.aecom.com/>
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
**********************************************************
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**********************************************************
**********************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:08:30 -0800
From: "Pang, Joseph" <Josep...@SEATTLE.GOV>
Subject: Re: Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Thanks Lew for the clarification and the enhancement made to SWMM5 with not making ISOL=2 in SWMM4 available anymore. From the test results described, the current method is clearly superior.
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Lewis Rossman
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:06 PM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I have to correct one aspect of Joseph's response. What he says about
the Preissmann slot is no doubt true in general, but SWMM does not use
the slot approach to model pressurized pipe flow. Instead it uses what
can be called the Roesner-Shubinski-Aldrich surcharge algorithm. The
algorithm includes a smoothing function that is applied over the
transition zone between open channel and pressurized flow. More details
can be found in the original Extran documentation or in the SWMM 5
Quality Assurance report that is available on the EPA SWMM web site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lewis Rossman
Environmental Scientist
Water Supply and Water Resources Division
U.S Environmental Protection Agency
email: rossma...@epa.gov
From: "Pang, Joseph" <Josep...@SEATTLE.GOV>
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Date: 11/24/2009 02:40 PM
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I believe it doesn't as SWMM uses Preissmann Slot approach to model
pressurized condition. As far as SWMM is concerned, the pipe does not
leave the state of open channel flow. It has a thin slot called the
Preissmann Slot attached to the crown of the pipe. Preissmann Slot is a
common approach for the application of the St. Venant Equations of
Continuity and Momentum to pipe surcharge condition. In addition to
SWMM, such approach is also found in other modeling softwares that use
the St. Venant equations. One school of thought that I've read about
using such approach is that it simplifies and smoothens the modeling of
transitions between open channel to surcharge conditions as the model
would not need to switch between governing equations which can
potentially lead to further numerical instability. This would be
especially so when a pipe is at the verge of being surcharged.
Hope this helps.
Joseph
Joseph Pang, PE
Seattle Public Utilities
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of
Michael Rounds
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:52 AM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using
full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and
pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output
data? Thank you.
Michael A. Rounds, E.I.T.
Project Specialist
Environment
D 503.227.1042 x 17
michael...@aecom.com <mailto:john.pe...@aecom.com>
AECOM
333 SW Fifth Avenue, Suite 225, Portland, OR 97204
T 503.227.1042 F 503.227.1048
www.aecom.com <http://www.aecom.com/>
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:45:46 -0700
From: Robert Dickinson <Robert.E....@US.MWHGLOBAL.COM>
Subject: Re: Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Hi,
Regarding the question about " Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output data?"
You can use the capacity output table for each link along with the full area of the link (shown in Cross section summary) to calculate the volume of area in the pipe over time. If you use the SWMM 5 Console program you can even get a table for every link to make it easier to summmarize the Air = [1 -Capacity] * Full Flow Area calculations.
Robert E Dickinson
SW/WW Technical Engineering Specialist
MWH Soft, Inc
9340 Pontiac Drive Tel: 813-712-0664
Tampa, Florida, 33626 Alt: 813-494-2919
USA
robert.d...@mwhsoft.com
www.mwhsoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Pang, Joseph
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:09 PM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Thanks Lew for the clarification and the enhancement made to SWMM5 with not making ISOL=2 in SWMM4 available anymore. From the test results described, the current method is clearly superior.
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Lewis Rossman
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:06 PM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I have to correct one aspect of Joseph's response. What he says about
the Preissmann slot is no doubt true in general, but SWMM does not use
the slot approach to model pressurized pipe flow. Instead it uses what
can be called the Roesner-Shubinski-Aldrich surcharge algorithm. The
algorithm includes a smoothing function that is applied over the
transition zone between open channel and pressurized flow. More details
can be found in the original Extran documentation or in the SWMM 5
Quality Assurance report that is available on the EPA SWMM web site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lewis Rossman
Environmental Scientist
Water Supply and Water Resources Division
U.S Environmental Protection Agency
email: rossma...@epa.gov
From: "Pang, Joseph" <Josep...@SEATTLE.GOV>
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Date: 11/24/2009 02:40 PM
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I believe it doesn't as SWMM uses Preissmann Slot approach to model
pressurized condition. As far as SWMM is concerned, the pipe does not
leave the state of open channel flow. It has a thin slot called the
Preissmann Slot attached to the crown of the pipe. Preissmann Slot is a
common approach for the application of the St. Venant Equations of
Continuity and Momentum to pipe surcharge condition. In addition to
SWMM, such approach is also found in other modeling softwares that use
the St. Venant equations. One school of thought that I've read about
using such approach is that it simplifies and smoothens the modeling of
transitions between open channel to surcharge conditions as the model
would not need to switch between governing equations which can
potentially lead to further numerical instability. This would be
especially so when a pipe is at the verge of being surcharged.
Hope this helps.
Joseph
Joseph Pang, PE
Seattle Public Utilities
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of
Michael Rounds
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:52 AM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using
full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and
pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output
data? Thank you.
Michael A. Rounds, E.I.T.
Project Specialist
Environment
D 503.227.1042 x 17
michael...@aecom.com <mailto:john.pe...@aecom.com>
AECOM
333 SW Fifth Avenue, Suite 225, Portland, OR 97204
T 503.227.1042 F 503.227.1048
www.aecom.com <http://www.aecom.com/>
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
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------------------------------
End of SWMM-USERS Digest - 20 Nov 2009 to 24 Nov 2009 (#2009-122)
*****************************************************************
Topics of the day:
1. Time Series Plots
2. Time Series Plots - reply(1) (2)
3. SWMM 5.0.018 Now Available - comment on the new RDII features
4. Full Dynamic Wave Analysis (5)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:08:43 +1000
From: George Wolvaardt <George.W...@KBR.COM>
Subject: Time Series Plots
I cannot get the Time Series Plot dialog box to accept more than one
object at a time. When I press the [+] button, it simply duplicates the
object which was first selected. How do I fix that?=20
Much appreciated.
=20
George Wolvaardt
Kellogg Brown & Root Pty Ltd
Australia
This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and p=
rivileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any re=
view, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. =
=20If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive inform=
ation for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-m=
ail and delete all copies of this message.
**********************************************************
* To sign off, email to: list...@listserv.uoguelph.ca *
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**********************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 03:35:22 -0700
From: Robert Dickinson <Robert.E....@US.MWHGLOBAL.COM>
Subject: Re: Time Series Plots - reply(1)
Hi George,
It does work, you just need to use the mouse and select a new object to be plotted outside of the Time Series Plot before clicking on the [+] button.
Best and Kind Regards,
Robert Dickinson
SW/WW Technical Engineering Specialist
MWH Soft, Inc
9340 Pontiac Drive Tel: 813-712-0664
Tampa, Florida, 33626 Alt: 813-494-2919
USA
robert.d...@mwhsoft.com
www.mwhsoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of George Wolvaardt
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:09 AM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Time Series Plots
I cannot get the Time Series Plot dialog box to accept more than one
object at a time. When I press the [+] button, it simply duplicates the
object which was first selected. How do I fix that?
Much appreciated.
George Wolvaardt
Kellogg Brown & Root Pty Ltd
Australia
This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive information for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message.
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**********************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:09:05 -0700
From: Robert Dickinson <Robert.E....@US.MWHGLOBAL.COM>
Subject: Re: SWMM 5.0.018 Now Available - comment on the new RDII features
This is a good update, Lew and builds on the significant improvements in SW=
MM 5.0.017. I especially liked the improvements in the RDII flow generatio=
n after SWMM 5.0.017 as it now allows the user to use an RDII time step sma=
ller than the precipitation interval by selecting a smaller WET time step i=
n SWMM. This allows SWMM 5 to better model flashy UH's and coincidently pr=
ovides a better match between SWMM 4 and SWMM 5 for those UH's with a time =
base (or T*K value) smaller than the precipitation interval. SWMM 5 also h=
as a integrated approach to the RDII sewershed storage calculations for con=
tinuous models which makes it an improvement over the SWMM 4 piecewise mont=
hly linear RDII storage calculations.
Robert E Dickinson
Technical Engineering Specialist
MWH Soft, Inc
9340 Pontiac Drive Tel: 813-712-0664
Tampa, Florida, 33626 Alt: 813-494-2919
USA
robert.d...@mwhsoft.com
www.mwhsoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Lewi=
s Rossman
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:47 PM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] SWMM 5.0.018 Now Available
A new update of SWMM 5, release 5.0.018, is now available from
www.epa.gov/ednnrmrl/models/swmm.
This update corrects a bug that sometimes prevented Status Report files
from being automatically deleted from a users TEMP folder after they
were no longer needed. Users should check their TEMP folders (usually in
c:\Documents and Settings\<User Name>\Local Settings\Temp) to see if its
full of old files that begin with "swm". These can safely be deleted and
should not appear again once you upgrade to version 5.0.018.
We also made the project input file created for use by SWMM's Add-On
Tools contain all project data, including map coordinates and element
tags.
Other changes are listed in the Updates and Bug Fixes file available on
the web site.
Thanks again for your continued interest and support.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------
Lewis Rossman
Environmental Scientist
Water Supply and Water Resources Division
U.S Environmental Protection Agency
email: rossma...@epa.gov
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:48:38 -0800
From: "McRae, Kirby" <Kirby...@AECOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Time Series Plots - reply(1)
Hi
We've noticed this behavior with ver. 5.0.018 too. However, it is
intermittent and we havn't figured out what is causing it yet.
Kirby McRae, P.Eng.
Senior Municipal Engineer, Community Infrastructure
AECOM
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of
Robert Dickinson
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 4:35 AM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Time Series Plots - reply(1)
Hi George,
It does work, you just need to use the mouse and select a new object to
be plotted outside of the Time Series Plot before clicking on the [+]
button.
Best and Kind Regards,
Robert Dickinson
SW/WW Technical Engineering Specialist
MWH Soft, Inc
9340 Pontiac Drive Tel: 813-712-0664
Tampa, Florida, 33626 Alt: 813-494-2919
USA
robert.d...@mwhsoft.com
www.mwhsoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of
George Wolvaardt
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:09 AM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Time Series Plots
I cannot get the Time Series Plot dialog box to accept more than one
object at a time. When I press the [+] button, it simply duplicates the
object which was first selected. How do I fix that?
Much appreciated.
George Wolvaardt
Kellogg Brown & Root Pty Ltd
Australia
This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:51:49 -0800
From: "Rounds, Michael" <Michael...@AECOM.COM>
Subject: Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using
full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and
pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output
data? Thank you.=20
=20
Michael A. Rounds, E.I.T.
Project Specialist
Environment
D 503.227.1042 x 17
michael...@aecom.com <mailto:john.pe...@aecom.com>=20
=20
AECOM
333 SW Fifth Avenue, Suite 225, Portland, OR 97204
T 503.227.1042 F 503.227.1048
www.aecom.com <http://www.aecom.com/>=20
=20
=20
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail=20
=20
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:33:32 -0800
From: "Pang, Joseph" <Josep...@SEATTLE.GOV>
Subject: Re: Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I believe it doesn't as SWMM uses Preissmann Slot approach to model pressurized condition. As far as SWMM is concerned, the pipe does not leave the state of open channel flow. It has a thin slot called the Preissmann Slot attached to the crown of the pipe. Preissmann Slot is a common approach for the application of the St. Venant Equations of Continuity and Momentum to pipe surcharge condition. In addition to SWMM, such approach is also found in other modeling softwares that use the St. Venant equations. One school of thought that I've read about using such approach is that it simplifies and smoothens the modeling of transitions between open channel to surcharge conditions as the model would not need to switch between governing equations which can potentially lead to further numerical instability. This would be especially so when a pipe is at the verge of being surcharged.
Hope this helps.
Joseph
Joseph Pang, PE
Seattle Public Utilities
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Michael Rounds
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:52 AM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using
full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and
pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output
data? Thank you.
Michael A. Rounds, E.I.T.
Project Specialist
Environment
D 503.227.1042 x 17
michael...@aecom.com <mailto:john.pe...@aecom.com>
AECOM
333 SW Fifth Avenue, Suite 225, Portland, OR 97204
T 503.227.1042 F 503.227.1048
www.aecom.com <http://www.aecom.com/>
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
**********************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:05:55 -0500
From: Lewis Rossman <Rossma...@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I have to correct one aspect of Joseph's response. What he says about
the Preissmann slot is no doubt true in general, but SWMM does not use
the slot approach to model pressurized pipe flow. Instead it uses what
can be called the Roesner-Shubinski-Aldrich surcharge algorithm. The
algorithm includes a smoothing function that is applied over the
transition zone between open channel and pressurized flow. More details
can be found in the original Extran documentation or in the SWMM 5
Quality Assurance report that is available on the EPA SWMM web site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lewis Rossman
Environmental Scientist
Water Supply and Water Resources Division
U.S Environmental Protection Agency
email: rossma...@epa.gov
From: "Pang, Joseph" <Josep...@SEATTLE.GOV>
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Date: 11/24/2009 02:40 PM
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I believe it doesn't as SWMM uses Preissmann Slot approach to model
pressurized condition. As far as SWMM is concerned, the pipe does not
leave the state of open channel flow. It has a thin slot called the
Preissmann Slot attached to the crown of the pipe. Preissmann Slot is a
common approach for the application of the St. Venant Equations of
Continuity and Momentum to pipe surcharge condition. In addition to
SWMM, such approach is also found in other modeling softwares that use
the St. Venant equations. One school of thought that I've read about
using such approach is that it simplifies and smoothens the modeling of
transitions between open channel to surcharge conditions as the model
would not need to switch between governing equations which can
potentially lead to further numerical instability. This would be
especially so when a pipe is at the verge of being surcharged.
Hope this helps.
Joseph
Joseph Pang, PE
Seattle Public Utilities
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of
Michael Rounds
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:52 AM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using
full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and
pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output
data? Thank you.
Michael A. Rounds, E.I.T.
Project Specialist
Environment
D 503.227.1042 x 17
michael...@aecom.com <mailto:john.pe...@aecom.com>
AECOM
333 SW Fifth Avenue, Suite 225, Portland, OR 97204
T 503.227.1042 F 503.227.1048
www.aecom.com <http://www.aecom.com/>
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
**********************************************************
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* In the body of the message type: signoff swmm-users *
**********************************************************
**********************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:08:30 -0800
From: "Pang, Joseph" <Josep...@SEATTLE.GOV>
Subject: Re: Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Thanks Lew for the clarification and the enhancement made to SWMM5 with not making ISOL=2 in SWMM4 available anymore. From the test results described, the current method is clearly superior.
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Lewis Rossman
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:06 PM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I have to correct one aspect of Joseph's response. What he says about
the Preissmann slot is no doubt true in general, but SWMM does not use
the slot approach to model pressurized pipe flow. Instead it uses what
can be called the Roesner-Shubinski-Aldrich surcharge algorithm. The
algorithm includes a smoothing function that is applied over the
transition zone between open channel and pressurized flow. More details
can be found in the original Extran documentation or in the SWMM 5
Quality Assurance report that is available on the EPA SWMM web site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lewis Rossman
Environmental Scientist
Water Supply and Water Resources Division
U.S Environmental Protection Agency
email: rossma...@epa.gov
From: "Pang, Joseph" <Josep...@SEATTLE.GOV>
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Date: 11/24/2009 02:40 PM
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I believe it doesn't as SWMM uses Preissmann Slot approach to model
pressurized condition. As far as SWMM is concerned, the pipe does not
leave the state of open channel flow. It has a thin slot called the
Preissmann Slot attached to the crown of the pipe. Preissmann Slot is a
common approach for the application of the St. Venant Equations of
Continuity and Momentum to pipe surcharge condition. In addition to
SWMM, such approach is also found in other modeling softwares that use
the St. Venant equations. One school of thought that I've read about
using such approach is that it simplifies and smoothens the modeling of
transitions between open channel to surcharge conditions as the model
would not need to switch between governing equations which can
potentially lead to further numerical instability. This would be
especially so when a pipe is at the verge of being surcharged.
Hope this helps.
Joseph
Joseph Pang, PE
Seattle Public Utilities
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of
Michael Rounds
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:52 AM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using
full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and
pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output
data? Thank you.
Michael A. Rounds, E.I.T.
Project Specialist
Environment
D 503.227.1042 x 17
michael...@aecom.com <mailto:john.pe...@aecom.com>
AECOM
333 SW Fifth Avenue, Suite 225, Portland, OR 97204
T 503.227.1042 F 503.227.1048
www.aecom.com <http://www.aecom.com/>
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:45:46 -0700
From: Robert Dickinson <Robert.E....@US.MWHGLOBAL.COM>
Subject: Re: Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Hi,
Regarding the question about " Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output data?"
You can use the capacity output table for each link along with the full area of the link (shown in Cross section summary) to calculate the volume of area in the pipe over time. If you use the SWMM 5 Console program you can even get a table for every link to make it easier to summmarize the Air = [1 -Capacity] * Full Flow Area calculations.
Robert E Dickinson
SW/WW Technical Engineering Specialist
MWH Soft, Inc
9340 Pontiac Drive Tel: 813-712-0664
Tampa, Florida, 33626 Alt: 813-494-2919
USA
robert.d...@mwhsoft.com
www.mwhsoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Pang, Joseph
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:09 PM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Thanks Lew for the clarification and the enhancement made to SWMM5 with not making ISOL=2 in SWMM4 available anymore. From the test results described, the current method is clearly superior.
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Lewis Rossman
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:06 PM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I have to correct one aspect of Joseph's response. What he says about
the Preissmann slot is no doubt true in general, but SWMM does not use
the slot approach to model pressurized pipe flow. Instead it uses what
can be called the Roesner-Shubinski-Aldrich surcharge algorithm. The
algorithm includes a smoothing function that is applied over the
transition zone between open channel and pressurized flow. More details
can be found in the original Extran documentation or in the SWMM 5
Quality Assurance report that is available on the EPA SWMM web site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lewis Rossman
Environmental Scientist
Water Supply and Water Resources Division
U.S Environmental Protection Agency
email: rossma...@epa.gov
From: "Pang, Joseph" <Josep...@SEATTLE.GOV>
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Date: 11/24/2009 02:40 PM
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
I believe it doesn't as SWMM uses Preissmann Slot approach to model
pressurized condition. As far as SWMM is concerned, the pipe does not
leave the state of open channel flow. It has a thin slot called the
Preissmann Slot attached to the crown of the pipe. Preissmann Slot is a
common approach for the application of the St. Venant Equations of
Continuity and Momentum to pipe surcharge condition. In addition to
SWMM, such approach is also found in other modeling softwares that use
the St. Venant equations. One school of thought that I've read about
using such approach is that it simplifies and smoothens the modeling of
transitions between open channel to surcharge conditions as the model
would not need to switch between governing equations which can
potentially lead to further numerical instability. This would be
especially so when a pipe is at the verge of being surcharged.
Hope this helps.
Joseph
Joseph Pang, PE
Seattle Public Utilities
-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of
Michael Rounds
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:52 AM
To: SWMM-USERS; Pang, Joseph
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Full Dynamic Wave Analysis
Does SWMM address associated air demand and vent requirements when using
full dynamic wave analysis at the transition between open channel and
pressure flows? Is there a way of determining this from the SWMM output
data? Thank you.
Michael A. Rounds, E.I.T.
Project Specialist
Environment
D 503.227.1042 x 17
michael...@aecom.com <mailto:john.pe...@aecom.com>
AECOM
333 SW Fifth Avenue, Suite 225, Portland, OR 97204
T 503.227.1042 F 503.227.1048
www.aecom.com <http://www.aecom.com/>
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
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End of SWMM-USERS Digest - 20 Nov 2009 to 24 Nov 2009 (#2009-122)
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