Re: Fwd: Re: [Stokey Local] The petition
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suzy r
Oct 11, 2011, 5:06:04 PM10/11/11
to stoke...@googlegroups.com
To everyone this concerns,
Jane, John and Tara..
Hamdy and I have the majority of petitions which we are going to analyse and show tomorrow to the BBC.
I wrote the petition without any help from any of you (my lodger had to help) and Hamdy and I worked together on this. We are responsible and will remain responsible for the huge pile of addresses amongst the pettion...that we have. I certainly will not do anything with them but count the no of protesters and hand them to the council and let the media knowthe results.
I have discussed this before with Hamdy and he is in total agreement.
I would suggest that from now on if Stokey Local wants to use this petition they retype it and add an information box in so people can tick that they want information too (a lot of people really don't!)
I am a registered member of ICO the govt body that protects information data. As far as I am aware a petition is a petition and not a request for information. I collect email addresses for Live At Your Local and know that a lot of people are very worried about this.
If you do type up any addresses collected on this petition at the market or whether else as far as I am concerned it is nothing to do with the original petition I set up.
Suzy
From: Jane Holgate <jane.h...@btinternet.com>
To: suzy r <suzy...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2011, 21:43
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Stokey Local] The petition
But Suzy
You are wrong. We have a number of lawyers in the group as well as data protection officers - all of whom say you are in the wrong. Which lawyers have you taken advice from and are they prepared to put it in writing?
best wishes
Jane
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Stokey Local] The petition
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:36:01 +0100 (BST)
From: suzy r <suzy...@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: stoke...@googlegroups.com
To: stoke...@googlegroups.com <stoke...@googlegroups.com>
HI John,
we have already discussed this and it is against data protection. Hamdy and I who have been in charge of the petition and are responsible for it have said this before to John and Jane.
If you have the petition please give it to me or Hamdy or me (Suzy). Jamie, Estelle and I are analysing the info and counting it. It is not an email list and I didn't write it as such.
Hamdy and I have the majority of petitions and any more should be handed back to us.
Suzy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* John Page <john....@btinternet.com>
*To:* stoke...@googlegroups.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, 11 October 2011, 17:09
*Subject:* Re: [Stokey Local] The petition
Team,
We really do need to collate the email adresses that people have given us on these petitions. This is the only way we will be able to notify our supporters when the application is put in and that we need them to write formally to the council.
So if you have petitions, can you type up the list of email addresses and then forward them to me, I will then upload them to our email server.
I undserstand that some people have expressed concern that keeping an email list of supporters risks being a breach of the Data Protection Act. In fact, the Act does not apply to data kept solely for 'advertising, marketing and public relations'.
The use of our email list will come under this exception. In any event we are not storing 'senstitive personal data' just email addresses.
If you can get them to me then I will upload them.
Many thanks
John Page
--- On *Tue, 11/10/11, suzy r /<suzy...@yahoo.co.uk>/* wrote:
From: suzy r <suzy...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Stokey Local] The petition
To: "stoke...@googlegroups.com" <stoke...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, 11 October, 2011, 15:55
Hi Everyone,
If anyone has any filled in petitions please can you take them to
Hamdy's tonight or before 11am in the morning if you can. I'm not
sure what happened to the market ones. Apparently the BBC is
filming about Sainsbury's (is this true??) and it would be great to
show the huge pile of signatures and comments we have collected. Also Jamie, Estelle and I are going through them in the evening..
adding them up and summarising the number of types of comments.
We may need to carry on another day ...
I will post the numbers on here so people can tell the media etc..
Thanks a lot,
Suzy
Jane, John and Tara..
Hamdy and I have the majority of petitions which we are going to analyse and show tomorrow to the BBC.
I wrote the petition without any help from any of you (my lodger had to help) and Hamdy and I worked together on this. We are responsible and will remain responsible for the huge pile of addresses amongst the pettion...that we have. I certainly will not do anything with them but count the no of protesters and hand them to the council and let the media knowthe results.
I have discussed this before with Hamdy and he is in total agreement.
I would suggest that from now on if Stokey Local wants to use this petition they retype it and add an information box in so people can tick that they want information too (a lot of people really don't!)
I am a registered member of ICO the govt body that protects information data. As far as I am aware a petition is a petition and not a request for information. I collect email addresses for Live At Your Local and know that a lot of people are very worried about this.
If you do type up any addresses collected on this petition at the market or whether else as far as I am concerned it is nothing to do with the original petition I set up.
Suzy
From: Jane Holgate <jane.h...@btinternet.com>
To: suzy r <suzy...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2011, 21:43
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Stokey Local] The petition
But Suzy
You are wrong. We have a number of lawyers in the group as well as data protection officers - all of whom say you are in the wrong. Which lawyers have you taken advice from and are they prepared to put it in writing?
best wishes
Jane
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Stokey Local] The petition
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:36:01 +0100 (BST)
From: suzy r <suzy...@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: stoke...@googlegroups.com
To: stoke...@googlegroups.com <stoke...@googlegroups.com>
HI John,
we have already discussed this and it is against data protection. Hamdy and I who have been in charge of the petition and are responsible for it have said this before to John and Jane.
If you have the petition please give it to me or Hamdy or me (Suzy). Jamie, Estelle and I are analysing the info and counting it. It is not an email list and I didn't write it as such.
Hamdy and I have the majority of petitions and any more should be handed back to us.
Suzy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* John Page <john....@btinternet.com>
*To:* stoke...@googlegroups.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, 11 October 2011, 17:09
*Subject:* Re: [Stokey Local] The petition
Team,
We really do need to collate the email adresses that people have given us on these petitions. This is the only way we will be able to notify our supporters when the application is put in and that we need them to write formally to the council.
So if you have petitions, can you type up the list of email addresses and then forward them to me, I will then upload them to our email server.
I undserstand that some people have expressed concern that keeping an email list of supporters risks being a breach of the Data Protection Act. In fact, the Act does not apply to data kept solely for 'advertising, marketing and public relations'.
The use of our email list will come under this exception. In any event we are not storing 'senstitive personal data' just email addresses.
If you can get them to me then I will upload them.
Many thanks
John Page
--- On *Tue, 11/10/11, suzy r /<suzy...@yahoo.co.uk>/* wrote:
From: suzy r <suzy...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Stokey Local] The petition
To: "stoke...@googlegroups.com" <stoke...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, 11 October, 2011, 15:55
Hi Everyone,
If anyone has any filled in petitions please can you take them to
Hamdy's tonight or before 11am in the morning if you can. I'm not
sure what happened to the market ones. Apparently the BBC is
filming about Sainsbury's (is this true??) and it would be great to
show the huge pile of signatures and comments we have collected. Also Jamie, Estelle and I are going through them in the evening..
adding them up and summarising the number of types of comments.
We may need to carry on another day ...
I will post the numbers on here so people can tell the media etc..
Thanks a lot,
Suzy
Kirsten Foster
Oct 12, 2011, 4:37:18 AM10/12/11
to stoke...@googlegroups.com
You could all read the guidelines here:
http://www.ico.gov.uk
Or just stab pencils in your eyes, less painful.
As far as I understand it (a day's training!):
Like all regulations the DPA is somewhat open to interpretation and depends on 'reasonable' expectations/behaviour.
The focus is mainly on businesses and public organisations.
But looking at petition writing advice on most council websites, it says you should have a data protection statement saying how you are going to use the information you collect. So if you haven't said on the petition that you will use the emails collected to send futher information to signatories, and then you do send emails to them, they MAY have a claim against you under the data protection act. If you use the information for anything other than the stated intention (ie giving petition to council) they may have a claim and if you do not store their details securely they may have a claim against you. But someone would have to make a claim for there to be any action against you.
I imagine the Information Commissioner would not slap a hefty fine on anyone if they were found in breach. This doesn't mean we should ignore the DPA I just don't want anyone to have a panic attack if they may have inadvertently breached it in this case.
Just my twopenn'orth
kx--
Kirsten Foster
kir...@kirstenfoster.com
+44 (0)7553092688
http://www.ico.gov.uk
Or just stab pencils in your eyes, less painful.
As far as I understand it (a day's training!):
Like all regulations the DPA is somewhat open to interpretation and depends on 'reasonable' expectations/behaviour.
The focus is mainly on businesses and public organisations.
But looking at petition writing advice on most council websites, it says you should have a data protection statement saying how you are going to use the information you collect. So if you haven't said on the petition that you will use the emails collected to send futher information to signatories, and then you do send emails to them, they MAY have a claim against you under the data protection act. If you use the information for anything other than the stated intention (ie giving petition to council) they may have a claim and if you do not store their details securely they may have a claim against you. But someone would have to make a claim for there to be any action against you.
I imagine the Information Commissioner would not slap a hefty fine on anyone if they were found in breach. This doesn't mean we should ignore the DPA I just don't want anyone to have a panic attack if they may have inadvertently breached it in this case.
Just my twopenn'orth
kx
Kirsten Foster
kir...@kirstenfoster.com
+44 (0)7553092688
suzy r
Oct 12, 2011, 4:41:27 AM10/12/11
to stoke...@googlegroups.com
Hi Kirsten,
thanks a lot..I have asked everyone to send them in to Hamdys or give them to me. Please could you do that.
Suzy
From: Kirsten Foster <kir...@kirstenfoster.com>
To: stoke...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2011, 9:37
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [Stokey Local] The petition
Jane Holgate
Oct 12, 2011, 4:58:53 AM10/12/11
to stoke...@googlegroups.com, Kirsten Foster
Hi Kirsten
Thanks for your information - as you say it is a matter of
interpretation and there are certainly ways of dealing with this.
Thanks for your information - as you say it is a matter of
interpretation and there are certainly ways of dealing with this.
The difference is that here people SIGNED the petition AND left their
emails for further information.
Why would anyone leave their emails unless they wanted to receive
further information? Would they just not have signed the form showing
support and not put down their email?
The issue is that lots of people are contacting us to say 'why am I not
receiving information about the campaign. I would like to get involved
but no one tells me about events or activities'. Then we have to say
it's because their details have not be handed over to the group. It is
such a shame as it is likely that the planning application is likely to
be submitted in the next 4 to 6 weeks and we now can't contact all those
people who have asked to be part of the group and to receive information.
As a result we will now have far less people objecting to the
application than would otherwise be the case and the name collecting on
the petition will have all been in vain. The council do not take
petitions half as seriously as individual objection letters.
It is a shame this decision has been made by one person rather than the
whole group who have worked extremely well together over the last few
months.
We have come up with a whole number of solutions to dealing with this
issue which have all be rejected.
Best wishes
Jane
Roberto Parraga Sanchez
Oct 12, 2011, 5:28:26 AM10/12/11
to stoke...@googlegroups.com
Hi there
I'm no lawyer, but sending a couple of emails, which are not even linked to a name, address, or anything... I cannot see how this can be considered against the DPA.
If we were to sell the addresses to Salisbury's, fair enough, but the worse that these emails can be called is Spam.
If you are worried, just sent the emails from an anonymous account that cannot be traced to a anybody, hide the full list of recipients and add an op-out link at the bottom, which is more than all the Canadian drugs web sites do!
Cheers
Roberto
Cheers
Roberto
I'm no lawyer, but sending a couple of emails, which are not even linked to a name, address, or anything... I cannot see how this can be considered against the DPA.
If we were to sell the addresses to Salisbury's, fair enough, but the worse that these emails can be called is Spam.
If you are worried, just sent the emails from an anonymous account that cannot be traced to a anybody, hide the full list of recipients and add an op-out link at the bottom, which is more than all the Canadian drugs web sites do!
Cheers
Roberto
Cheers
Roberto
Kirsten Foster
Oct 12, 2011, 5:45:47 AM10/12/11
to stoke...@googlegroups.com
Yeah... maybe an anonymous account is going too far and will make us look like Canadian viagra peddlers...
But we do need to be careful about displaying everyone's email address - ie the addresses shouldn't be visible in a group email. If the addresses are added to the stokeylocal mailing list this shouldn't be a prob, right?
But I also think it's not a good idea to send typed-up lists of addresses to the whole group as happened earlier. Just send them to John or whoever is controlling the mailing list. I think that was probably a mistake as it's easy to click reply to all or reply to the group by mistake, so just be careful!
Cheers
kx
But we do need to be careful about displaying everyone's email address - ie the addresses shouldn't be visible in a group email. If the addresses are added to the stokeylocal mailing list this shouldn't be a prob, right?
But I also think it's not a good idea to send typed-up lists of addresses to the whole group as happened earlier. Just send them to John or whoever is controlling the mailing list. I think that was probably a mistake as it's easy to click reply to all or reply to the group by mistake, so just be careful!
Cheers
kx
Tom Albu
Oct 12, 2011, 5:54:50 AM10/12/11
to stoke...@googlegroups.com
And other voice saying the same.
If we are concerned, an email to everybody who has signed the petition saying thanks and explaining that either:
There email address will be added to the list unless they object or
Giving them a link to click to add their address (potentially less admin / opt in rather than out / but possibly lose some people who don’t bother to do it.
Either way perhaps we should refrain in future from washing so much dirty laundry on this relatively public email distribution list....
Suzy / Hamdy – you have done fantastic work in creating and driving the petition and I can only imagine what a nightmare the collation process is but PLEASE do not take this all too personally.
Tom
If we are concerned, an email to everybody who has signed the petition saying thanks and explaining that either:
There email address will be added to the list unless they object or
Giving them a link to click to add their address (potentially less admin / opt in rather than out / but possibly lose some people who don’t bother to do it.
Either way perhaps we should refrain in future from washing so much dirty laundry on this relatively public email distribution list....
Suzy / Hamdy – you have done fantastic work in creating and driving the petition and I can only imagine what a nightmare the collation process is but PLEASE do not take this all too personally.
Tom
From: Kirsten Foster <kir...@kirstenfoster.com>
Reply-To: <stoke...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:45:47 +0100
To: <stoke...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:45:47 +0100
To: <stoke...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [Stokey Local] The petition
Sean Donnellan
Oct 12, 2011, 6:03:09 AM10/12/11
to stoke...@googlegroups.com
I have spoken to the Data Protection registrar this morning and they confirmed that it is fine to use these petition email addresses to keep people informed about the petition and the Sainsbury's proposal at Wilmer Place.
Our minor oversight was to not specifically say we would use the email address in this manner, however it is perfectly reasonable to assume that by adding their email address (which was not compulsory) that "the campaign" would use this to maintain contact.
This would not be a breach of the Data Protection Act.
I suggested that we send a single email out, informing the signatories on the progress of the petition, the latest news regarding the campaign & the planning submission, and an option to opt out for any future emails. They agreed that this would be a good idea.
I have emailed Hamdy and I will update the group later.
Cheers,
Séan Donnellan
(07956) 316 380
112 Rectory Road
Stoke Newington
London N16 7SD
www.StokeyLocal.org.uk
#NoSainsburysN16
====================
Sent from my Galaxy SII
suzy r
Oct 12, 2011, 6:41:45 AM10/12/11
to stoke...@googlegroups.com
Hi Everyone,
I have just rung Data Protection and spoke to Caroline McGovern on the helpline. Her direct line is 01625545356,
She said you could ring her and speak directly about this.
She said that no consent was given for emails to be used in the petition as people were signing to objeft to Sainsburys and there address was used to validate their signature.
She also confirmed as I thought that it was my responsibility as I wrote the petition.
I am seeing Hamdy now and will discuss everything again with him..but last time we talked he agreed with me and said the same thing himself.
Suzy
From: Sean Donnellan <sean.do...@gmail.com>
To: stoke...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2011, 11:03
Subject: Re: [Stokey Local] The petition
Debora Robertson
Oct 12, 2011, 7:06:03 AM10/12/11
to Stokey Local
If this is true (and I question that, given other substantial and
extensive evidence), what a shame so much effort has been put into
something which is next to useless in terms of our campaign. We were
told from the very beginning by Rita Krishna that a large petition
would not influence the council's decision. Worse than that, it has
probably made those who've signed it feel like they've 'done
something' and that's enough. And I'm tired of fending off daily
queries from people who ask me why they haven't heard from us despite
signing the petition.
Still, onwards...
Sincerely,
Debora
extensive evidence), what a shame so much effort has been put into
something which is next to useless in terms of our campaign. We were
told from the very beginning by Rita Krishna that a large petition
would not influence the council's decision. Worse than that, it has
probably made those who've signed it feel like they've 'done
something' and that's enough. And I'm tired of fending off daily
queries from people who ask me why they haven't heard from us despite
signing the petition.
Still, onwards...
Sincerely,
Debora
suzy r
Oct 13, 2011, 4:08:07 AM10/13/11
to stoke...@googlegroups.com
Hi Everyone,
There are lots of reasons I set up up the petition with Hamdy. The main one being that the shops were involved and people in the shops could chat to their customers about it so everyone would know and think more about it. Also telling the papers 5,000 people have signed a petition to the media or the council or to each other obviously has a big impact on all of us.
Yesterday the BBC interviewed a man who works in Hamdy and seperately me about the situation. I collected the petition at the same time and it was massive...they saw more than a foot high pile of paper. Everyone was amazed at how many people had signed it and I was amazed at how dedicated Hamdy's have been to collecting signatures and going to other shops to replenish the sheets.
In the evening Estelle, Jamie and I added up the figures. We reckon including the market signatures and more petitions in shops that have not yet been collected from the market and online (600 people) we have about 5,500 so far. (It may be more!)
Tara I just read your email and thanks for separating the email list. Please could you give me the completed petitions at the market this week so we can add them in.
I agreed with Jamie last night that he would ring the woman I spoke to in ICO. He is going to get it clear and write any necessary letters to confirm the situation so I have it in writing from ICO. Please can you all leave this to him to do now as I think maybe we can work something out.
Also Jamie said people have discussed doing a house to house leaftle drop to 10,000 local people. We could probably get a large email list from this...and certainly tell people when and where to write to in the planning dept.
From: Debora Robertson <licke...@gmail.com>
To: Stokey Local <stoke...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2011, 12:06
Subject: [Stokey Local] Re: The petition
There are lots of reasons I set up up the petition with Hamdy. The main one being that the shops were involved and people in the shops could chat to their customers about it so everyone would know and think more about it. Also telling the papers 5,000 people have signed a petition to the media or the council or to each other obviously has a big impact on all of us.
Yesterday the BBC interviewed a man who works in Hamdy and seperately me about the situation. I collected the petition at the same time and it was massive...they saw more than a foot high pile of paper. Everyone was amazed at how many people had signed it and I was amazed at how dedicated Hamdy's have been to collecting signatures and going to other shops to replenish the sheets.
In the evening Estelle, Jamie and I added up the figures. We reckon including the market signatures and more petitions in shops that have not yet been collected from the market and online (600 people) we have about 5,500 so far. (It may be more!)
Tara I just read your email and thanks for separating the email list. Please could you give me the completed petitions at the market this week so we can add them in.
I agreed with Jamie last night that he would ring the woman I spoke to in ICO. He is going to get it clear and write any necessary letters to confirm the situation so I have it in writing from ICO. Please can you all leave this to him to do now as I think maybe we can work something out.
Also Jamie said people have discussed doing a house to house leaftle drop to 10,000 local people. We could probably get a large email list from this...and certainly tell people when and where to write to in the planning dept.
Suzy
From: Debora Robertson <licke...@gmail.com>
To: Stokey Local <stoke...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2011, 12:06
Subject: [Stokey Local] Re: The petition
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