> The responsibility of being a craftsman (though I prefer the term "a
> professional") is to explain what you think is wrong with the
> position/decision ... and once you have done that, you get on with meeting
> the business need the way you have been asked to.
> Someone who is not a craftsman/professional will just do it without
> explaining the issues they see ahead.

> Similarly, as a business owner I would view someone who said they would not
> do X due to their principles, after I have told them I understand their
> position, but would now like them to do what I have asked the way I have
> asked to be totally unprofessional (not worthy of being a craftsman), and
> would expect them to quit or be fired.

> 2009/3/13 Jason Gorman <goo...@parlezuml.com>

> > But this seems kind of fundamental. You said that if they asked you to
> > compromise, you would compromise. That's not the same as quitting on
> > principle. In fact, it sounds like quite the opposite.

> > My question is: what is the software craftman's position? If we have
> > no line we will not cross, are we craftsmen?

> > Jason Gorman

> > On Mar 13, 8:29 am, Casey Charlton <ca...@goinsane.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In that case, your option is to quit. You still don't have the right to
> > > override the business. Move on.

> > > 2009/3/13 Jason Gorman <goo...@parlezuml.com>

> > > > We shuld probably use some examples to illustrate and hopefully
> > > > clarify this very important point.

> > > > My interpretation is that a craftsman has a line he/she does not
> > > > cross, even when the customer demands it. Similar to the example of
> > > > the patient telling the surgeon not to bother scrubbing up. Does the
> > > > surgeon explain the risks and then do as the patient demands? Have I
> > > > got that wrong?

> > > > Jason Gorman
> > > >http://www.parlezuml.com

> > > > On Mar 13, 8:19 am, Casey Charlton <ca...@goinsane.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > I signed on the basis the principles were good. Where on that
> > manifesto
> > > > did
> > > > > it say "if your business demands conflict with your personal pride in
> > > > well
> > > > > written software, the business can go jump in a lake, they should be
> > damn
> > > > > happy to have such a craftsman as you to save them from such a stupid
> > > > > decision"

> > > > > If that is the case - I'll withdraw my signature - I work for
> > clients, if
> > > > > they ask me to make compromises, I make them. I have a duty to tell
> > them
> > > > > what those compromises are, I do not have any right to override their
> > > > > instructions.

> > > > > "Well crafted software" is to me, software that meats the business
> > need
> > > > > first, and secondarily can be judged to be of high quality.

> > > > > 2009/3/12 Enrique Comba Riepenhausen <eco...@gmail.com>

> > > > > > 2009/3/12 Casey Charlton <ca...@goinsane.co.uk>:
> > > > > > > At the risk of sounding like I'm in the wrong place... works >
> > > > > > craftmanship

> > > > > > I must disagree with that for one simple reason (our first value in
> > > > > > the manifesto):

> > > > > > Not only working software, but also well-crafted software

> > > > > > > If your priority is well written code, you almost certainly have
> > a
> > > > > > different
> > > > > > > business goal from your employer. If you can achieve your
> > business
> > > > goals,
> > > > > > > *and* have well written, maintainable, elegant, and just
> > downright
> > > > sexy
> > > > > > code
> > > > > > > too ... then all the better.

> > > > > > If someone is in the pursuit of what you just mention above, he/she
> > > > > > would fall into the category of an 'industrial programer'.

> > > > > > As most of us have mentioned before, there is nothing wrong about
> > > > > > industrial programming, but I don't think that that is what we are
> > > > > > looking for here...

> > > > > > Cheers,

> > > > > > Enrique

> > > > > > > 2009/3/12 Curtis Cooley <curtis.coo...@gmail.com>

> > > > > > >> At the risk of sounding snarky, works != craftmanship

> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Enrique Comba Riepenhausen
> > > > > > [@]: <eco...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > [w]: <http://www.nexwerk.com>- Hide quoted text -

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