Reading and listening to this stuff makes me wonder how many teams or companies are actively apprenticing developers. I know that 8th Light has started taking on apprentices this year, and Obtiva's apprenticeship program started last year. Is anyone else apprenticing?
Best,
Dave Hoover //obtiva: Agility applied. Software delivered.
Object Mentor had an apprenticeship program while I worked there and
Role Model software had been doing apprenticeship for a while. Not
sure if they're still at it.
> Reading and listening to this stuff makes me wonder how many teams or
> companies are actively apprenticing developers. I know that 8th Light
> has started taking on apprentices this year, and Obtiva's
> apprenticeship program started last year. Is anyone else
> apprenticing?
> Best,
> Dave Hoover
> //obtiva: Agility applied. Software delivered.
I was very much inspired by Role Model's apprenticeship program when I started the apprenticeship program at Obtiva. I'm also unsure whether Ken is currently taking on apprentices. Watching Bob, Pete, and Michael made me wonder whether people of their caliber regularly take on apprentices. Surely their apprentices would have a significant impact on the profession.
On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Micah Martin <micahmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good question Dave.
> Object Mentor had an apprenticeship program while I worked there and > Role Model software had been doing apprenticeship for a while. Not > sure if they're still at it.
> Thanks for the the jaoo link. I hadn't seen that.
>> Reading and listening to this stuff makes me wonder how many teams or >> companies are actively apprenticing developers. I know that 8th Light >> has started taking on apprentices this year, and Obtiva's >> apprenticeship program started last year. Is anyone else >> apprenticing?
>> Best,
>> Dave Hoover >> //obtiva: Agility applied. Software delivered.
> I was very much inspired by Role Model's apprenticeship program when I
> started the apprenticeship program at Obtiva. I'm also unsure whether
> Ken is currently taking on apprentices. Watching Bob, Pete, and
> Michael made me wonder whether people of their caliber regularly take
> on apprentices. Surely their apprentices would have a significant
> impact on the profession.
> --Dave
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Micah Martin
> <micahmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good question Dave.
>> Object Mentor had an apprenticeship program while I worked there and
>> Role Model software had been doing apprenticeship for a while. Not
>> sure if they're still at it.
>> Thanks for the the jaoo link. I hadn't seen that.
>> Micah
>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Dave Hoover wrote:
>>> Reading and listening to this stuff makes me wonder how many teams
>>> or
>>> companies are actively apprenticing developers. I know that 8th
>>> Light
>>> has started taking on apprentices this year, and Obtiva's
>>> apprenticeship program started last year. Is anyone else
>>> apprenticing?
>>> Best,
>>> Dave Hoover
>>> //obtiva: Agility applied. Software delivered.
----
Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob) | email: uncle...@objectmentor.com
Object Mentor Inc. | blog: blog.objectmentor.com
The Agile Transition Experts | web: www.objectmentor.com 800-338-6716 | twitter: unclebobmartin
<uncle...@objectmentor.com> wrote: > I would love to take on an apprentice or two; but the travel schedule is a > killer for them. > On Nov 18, 2008, at 9:42 , Dave Hoover wrote:
> Micah,
> I was very much inspired by Role Model's apprenticeship program when I > started the apprenticeship program at Obtiva. I'm also unsure whether > Ken is currently taking on apprentices. Watching Bob, Pete, and > Michael made me wonder whether people of their caliber regularly take > on apprentices. Surely their apprentices would have a significant > impact on the profession.
> --Dave
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Micah Martin <micahmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good question Dave.
> Object Mentor had an apprenticeship program while I worked there and
> Role Model software had been doing apprenticeship for a while. Not
> sure if they're still at it.
> Thanks for the the jaoo link. I hadn't seen that.
> Micah
> On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Dave Hoover wrote:
> I was just reading Paul's blog post about "Observing a Craftsman".
That is an interesting point. Do you think certain business models
promote apprenticeship more than others? 8th Light does contract
work, which has the potential to not always be ideal, if we were
switching apprentices from one project to another often. Fortunately,
we have not had that situation, and I have had my apprentice on the
same project since he started work. I know working on the same
project for an extended period of time was a big step in maturing me
as a developer. Having to live with the code that I wrote and extend
it was a huge design stepping stone for me.
So, would a contract shop or consultancy not be as ideal as an IT
department of corporate company? Where you would get the chance to
work on the same project for a year.
I don't think it matters that much. To me, first priority was picking
the mentor I wanted to study from, more so than the situation I would
be in.
> Is it safe to say that business models that require a bunch of travel
> are not conducive to apprenticeship?
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Robert Martin
> <uncle...@objectmentor.com> wrote:
>> I would love to take on an apprentice or two; but the travel
>> schedule is a
>> killer for them.
>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 9:42 , Dave Hoover wrote:
>> Micah,
>> I was very much inspired by Role Model's apprenticeship program
>> when I
>> started the apprenticeship program at Obtiva. I'm also unsure
>> whether
>> Ken is currently taking on apprentices. Watching Bob, Pete, and
>> Michael made me wonder whether people of their caliber regularly take
>> on apprentices. Surely their apprentices would have a significant
>> impact on the profession.
>> --Dave
>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Micah Martin
>> <micahmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good question Dave.
>> Object Mentor had an apprenticeship program while I worked there and
>> Role Model software had been doing apprenticeship for a while. Not
>> sure if they're still at it.
>> Thanks for the the jaoo link. I hadn't seen that.
>> Micah
>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Dave Hoover wrote:
>> I was just reading Paul's blog post about "Observing a Craftsman".
Could you elaborate what you mean by the travel being a killer? Is it
the time being away from home and family to which you are referring
(which is how I took it) or is it what Dave and Paul were discussing
or something completely different?
From my own experience, having done both full-time/long-term
consulting work and short-term work, I think Paul was dead-on about
pick your mentor first. I think both types of experiences (consultant
and corporate) are very important to ones growth. That being said, a
good mentor will know how to get you the experience you need, when to
get you it as well as when to shield you from some of the not-so- pleasant experiences. To me the trick is how does an apprentice find
a mentor. Really think the guild model could solve that among other
things.
If you were referring to just the pain of travel in general, I'm a
little surprised you're having trouble finding apprentices. When you
say "apprentice" do you mean someone just starting their career or
other journeymen wanting to learn from you? When I started, I went
were the money was -- which wasn't home. If an apprentice was
changing their career I could see why that may be more painful --
likely to be older and have a family or established lifestyle. If I
were just getting started though, I would have jumped at the chance to
be your apprentice regardless of travel. Heck, when I first saw your
reply, I said to myself "I'll sign up to be his apprentice".
> That is an interesting point. Do you think certain business models
> promote apprenticeship more than others? 8th Light does contract
> work, which has the potential to not always be ideal, if we were
> switching apprentices from one project to another often. Fortunately,
> we have not had that situation, and I have had my apprentice on the
> same project since he started work. I know working on the same
> project for an extended period of time was a big step in maturing me
> as a developer. Having to live with the code that I wrote and extend
> it was a huge design stepping stone for me.
> So, would a contract shop or consultancy not be as ideal as an IT
> department of corporate company? Where you would get the chance to
> work on the same project for a year.
> I don't think it matters that much. To me, first priority was picking
> the mentor I wanted to study from, more so than the situation I would
> be in.
> Paul
> On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:02 PM, Dave Hoover wrote:
>> Is it safe to say that business models that require a bunch of travel
>> are not conducive to apprenticeship?
>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Robert Martin
>> <uncle...@objectmentor.com> wrote:
>>> I would love to take on an apprentice or two; but the travel
>>> schedule is a
>>> killer for them.
>>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 9:42 , Dave Hoover wrote:
>>> Micah,
>>> I was very much inspired by Role Model's apprenticeship program
>>> when I
>>> started the apprenticeship program at Obtiva. I'm also unsure
>>> whether
>>> Ken is currently taking on apprentices. Watching Bob, Pete, and
>>> Michael made me wonder whether people of their caliber regularly
>>> take
>>> on apprentices. Surely their apprentices would have a significant
>>> impact on the profession.
>>> --Dave
>>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Micah Martin
>>> <micahmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Good question Dave.
>>> Object Mentor had an apprenticeship program while I worked there and
>>> Role Model software had been doing apprenticeship for a while. Not
>>> sure if they're still at it.
>>> Thanks for the the jaoo link. I hadn't seen that.
>>> Micah
>>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Dave Hoover wrote:
>>> I was just reading Paul's blog post about "Observing a Craftsman".
Hello, all. I'll take this thread as an opportunity to introduce
myself and give you an update on Ken...
My name is Adam Williams. I believe I was Ken's 2nd, 3rd or 4th
apprentice - not certain as there were three of us that came on board
at the same time. 2000 was a booming year for RoleModel. My only
computer software development training came from Ken and the folks
that were incredibly influenced by him. 2002 brought the steep decline
in work for RoleModel, which meant we needed to look for other work,
though I have worked with RoleModel on large and small projects since
(some as short as 6 weeks, one as long as 1.5 years).
I couldn't say that any of us from Ken's shop have had a 'significant
impact on the profession', but I believe we've had a significant
impact in the life of people we have worked with thanks to our
training at RoleModel.
Nathaniel Talbott started the Terralien company. Terralien is
interesting in the way it has everyone as a contractor and has allowed
non-'Rails Rockstars' to become experienced Ruby and Rails developers,
all from their homes, with full access to Nathaniel's experience
through Campfire, etc. Of course, he speaks at Ruby and Rails
conferences every year, and runs the local Ruby users group, having
35-50 regular attendees. I don't think he's 30 yet, so I suspect we'll
see a book or two out of him someday, and I know some of his vision
enough to expect a lot more.
I myself have had the opportunity to shape the thinking of a few folks
as well, as I spent a couple of years in my basement programming Ruby
with an open door policy. I have been the 'lead' developer on many
projects, and am presently responsible for MemberHub.com - a project
on which the other developer was someone who learned to program in my
basement. I have a number of open source software projects - some are
even being used by others ;) I'd like to learn more about effective
ways to invest in others through apprenticeships, and hope to be
involved in business (MemberHub being one of them) that encourage
developing the same.
And there are many other people that have become exceptional software
and business explorers thanks to Ken's desire to prosper others. And
he is still doing it.
Ken started RoleModel Studios a few years ago and has had many
apprentices in the film production business. Of course, in that
endeavor, he's a bit of an apprentice himself ;) He is also building a
custom home, where he allows the men working with him to bring their
able children, who are even paid, so that they may learn to work, a
few skills, and get to be with their fathers.
Glad for men like yourselves,
adam
On Nov 18, 10:42 am, "Dave Hoover" <dave.hoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was very much inspired by Role Model's apprenticeship program when I
> started the apprenticeship program at Obtiva. I'm also unsure whether
> Ken is currently taking on apprentices. Watching Bob, Pete, and
> Michael made me wonder whether people of their caliber regularly take
> on apprentices. Surely their apprentices would have a significant
> impact on the profession.
> --Dave
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Micah Martin <micahmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Good question Dave.
> > Object Mentor had an apprenticeship program while I worked there and
> > Role Model software had been doing apprenticeship for a while. Not
> > sure if they're still at it.
> > Thanks for the the jaoo link. I hadn't seen that.
> > Micah
> > On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Dave Hoover wrote:
> >> Reading and listening to this stuff makes me wonder how many teams or
> >> companies are actively apprenticing developers. I know that 8th Light
> >> has started taking on apprentices this year, and Obtiva's
> >> apprenticeship program started last year. Is anyone else
> >> apprenticing?
> That is an interesting point. Do you think certain business models > promote apprenticeship more than others?
I'm not sure. I do think certain business models make apprenticeship easier than others.
Obtiva started out with a similar business model to Object Mentor's, providing training and coaching at client sites. But I saw an opportunity with the popularity and productivity of Ruby and Rails to create a Studio (similar to RoleModel's back in 2003ish) that would allow us to deliver software for clients from our own office, and give us the ability to bring on apprentices in a safe(r) environment. We've brought on 6 apprentices thus far. 2 of them have been promoted, 1 of them went to work at a hedge fund, and 3 of them are currently apprenticing. Our Studio makes apprenticeship possible for Obtiva, but I'm certain that apprenticeship is only limited by one's imagination and finding the right fit.
> So, would a contract shop or consultancy not be as ideal as an IT > department of corporate company? Where you would get the chance to > work on the same project for a year.
We're a contract shop and consultancy and we work with multiple clients for more than a year. It's a pretty good environment for apprentices because they get exposed to multiple projects over many months, and then eventually have opportunities to leave the Studio and go do on-site work for non-Studio Obtiva clients.
> I don't think it matters that much. To me, first priority was picking > the mentor I wanted to study from, more so than the situation I would > be in.
Agreed. Though, my original question was more targeted at people taking on apprentices, rather than apprentices picking mentors.
I have to chime in on the travel comment as well. Paul and Matt
covered the bases well. I'll just add that there are probably
countless ways to mentor an apprentice. The mentoring approach may
even depend on the nature of the apprentice. Some mentors may prefer
to give their apprentice constant attention, while others may leave
their apprentice to work along and jump in from time to time to give
course corrections.
I recall one of my first learning experiences... I had spent months
building a C++ chess program in my spare time at college. When I
thought it was complete, I tried to compile it. That's right, I
hadn't compiled yet. To my surprise, not only did it not compile but
there were HUNDREDS of compile errors. So I thought, "I'll just show
it to my dad and he'll fix it in a jiffy." On my next trip home I
grabbed my dad and showed the compile errors expecting him to jump in
a "fix it in a jiffy". His response was not what I expected. He just
looked at me with a raised eye brow as though saying "You expect me to
touch that steaming heap of dung?" He would never actually say that. He did not fix my code, though I'm sure he could have. Instead we had
a quick discussion about my development approach and how I might
improve it.
I ended up throwing away all the code and starting from scratch,
compiling frequently. That was a huge learning experience for me. And it only took a little bit of time from my father/mentor.
All that to say, I don't think a heavy travel schedule need be a
barrier to taking on an apprentice.
Micah
On Nov 19, 2008, at 8:47 AM, Matthew Segvich wrote:
> Could you elaborate what you mean by the travel being a killer? Is it
> the time being away from home and family to which you are referring
> (which is how I took it) or is it what Dave and Paul were discussing
> or something completely different?
> From my own experience, having done both full-time/long-term
> consulting work and short-term work, I think Paul was dead-on about
> pick your mentor first. I think both types of experiences (consultant
> and corporate) are very important to ones growth. That being said, a
> good mentor will know how to get you the experience you need, when to
> get you it as well as when to shield you from some of the not-so-
> pleasant experiences. To me the trick is how does an apprentice find
> a mentor. Really think the guild model could solve that among other
> things.
> If you were referring to just the pain of travel in general, I'm a
> little surprised you're having trouble finding apprentices. When you
> say "apprentice" do you mean someone just starting their career or
> other journeymen wanting to learn from you? When I started, I went
> were the money was -- which wasn't home. If an apprentice was
> changing their career I could see why that may be more painful --
> likely to be older and have a family or established lifestyle. If I
> were just getting started though, I would have jumped at the chance to
> be your apprentice regardless of travel. Heck, when I first saw your
> reply, I said to myself "I'll sign up to be his apprentice".
> Matt
> On Nov 19, 2008, at 8:03 AM, Paul Pagel wrote:
>> Dave,
>> That is an interesting point. Do you think certain business models
>> promote apprenticeship more than others? 8th Light does contract
>> work, which has the potential to not always be ideal, if we were
>> switching apprentices from one project to another often. >> Fortunately,
>> we have not had that situation, and I have had my apprentice on the
>> same project since he started work. I know working on the same
>> project for an extended period of time was a big step in maturing me
>> as a developer. Having to live with the code that I wrote and extend
>> it was a huge design stepping stone for me.
>> So, would a contract shop or consultancy not be as ideal as an IT
>> department of corporate company? Where you would get the chance to
>> work on the same project for a year.
>> I don't think it matters that much. To me, first priority was
>> picking
>> the mentor I wanted to study from, more so than the situation I would
>> be in.
>> Paul
>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:02 PM, Dave Hoover wrote:
>>> Is it safe to say that business models that require a bunch of
>>> travel
>>> are not conducive to apprenticeship?
>>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Robert Martin
>>> <uncle...@objectmentor.com> wrote:
>>>> I would love to take on an apprentice or two; but the travel
>>>> schedule is a
>>>> killer for them.
>>>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 9:42 , Dave Hoover wrote:
>>>> Micah,
>>>> I was very much inspired by Role Model's apprenticeship program
>>>> when I
>>>> started the apprenticeship program at Obtiva. I'm also unsure
>>>> whether
>>>> Ken is currently taking on apprentices. Watching Bob, Pete, and
>>>> Michael made me wonder whether people of their caliber regularly
>>>> take
>>>> on apprentices. Surely their apprentices would have a significant
>>>> impact on the profession.
>>>> --Dave
>>>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Micah Martin
>>>> <micahmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Good question Dave.
>>>> Object Mentor had an apprenticeship program while I worked there
>>>> and
>>>> Role Model software had been doing apprenticeship for a while. Not
>>>> sure if they're still at it.
>>>> Thanks for the the jaoo link. I hadn't seen that.
>>>> Micah
>>>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Dave Hoover wrote:
>>>> I was just reading Paul's blog post about "Observing a Craftsman".
Thanks for the background of Ken's apprenticeship model. I'm glad
you're here to share it.
One thing I've found very interesting about Ken's approach is that he
would actually charge his apprentices. In principle, I agree that the
value exchange goes from mentor to apprentice and it is just that an
apprentice should pay his mentor. However, in our society, the
concept is orthogonal to common thought and hard for many people to
accept.
How did this model work for Ken? Did he get many paying apprentices? Did the apprentices get their money's worth?
> Hello, all. I'll take this thread as an opportunity to introduce
> myself and give you an update on Ken...
> My name is Adam Williams. I believe I was Ken's 2nd, 3rd or 4th
> apprentice - not certain as there were three of us that came on board
> at the same time. 2000 was a booming year for RoleModel. My only
> computer software development training came from Ken and the folks
> that were incredibly influenced by him. 2002 brought the steep decline
> in work for RoleModel, which meant we needed to look for other work,
> though I have worked with RoleModel on large and small projects since
> (some as short as 6 weeks, one as long as 1.5 years).
> I couldn't say that any of us from Ken's shop have had a 'significant
> impact on the profession', but I believe we've had a significant
> impact in the life of people we have worked with thanks to our
> training at RoleModel.
> Nathaniel Talbott started the Terralien company. Terralien is
> interesting in the way it has everyone as a contractor and has allowed
> non-'Rails Rockstars' to become experienced Ruby and Rails developers,
> all from their homes, with full access to Nathaniel's experience
> through Campfire, etc. Of course, he speaks at Ruby and Rails
> conferences every year, and runs the local Ruby users group, having
> 35-50 regular attendees. I don't think he's 30 yet, so I suspect we'll
> see a book or two out of him someday, and I know some of his vision
> enough to expect a lot more.
> I myself have had the opportunity to shape the thinking of a few folks
> as well, as I spent a couple of years in my basement programming Ruby
> with an open door policy. I have been the 'lead' developer on many
> projects, and am presently responsible for MemberHub.com - a project
> on which the other developer was someone who learned to program in my
> basement. I have a number of open source software projects - some are
> even being used by others ;) I'd like to learn more about effective
> ways to invest in others through apprenticeships, and hope to be
> involved in business (MemberHub being one of them) that encourage
> developing the same.
> And there are many other people that have become exceptional software
> and business explorers thanks to Ken's desire to prosper others. And
> he is still doing it.
> Ken started RoleModel Studios a few years ago and has had many
> apprentices in the film production business. Of course, in that
> endeavor, he's a bit of an apprentice himself ;) He is also building a
> custom home, where he allows the men working with him to bring their
> able children, who are even paid, so that they may learn to work, a
> few skills, and get to be with their fathers.
> Glad for men like yourselves,
> adam
> On Nov 18, 10:42 am, "Dave Hoover" <dave.hoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Micah,
>> I was very much inspired by Role Model's apprenticeship program
>> when I
>> started the apprenticeship program at Obtiva. I'm also unsure
>> whether
>> Ken is currently taking on apprentices. Watching Bob, Pete, and
>> Michael made me wonder whether people of their caliber regularly take
>> on apprentices. Surely their apprentices would have a significant
>> impact on the profession.
>> --Dave
>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Micah Martin
>> <micahmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Good question Dave.
>>> Object Mentor had an apprenticeship program while I worked there and
>>> Role Model software had been doing apprenticeship for a while. Not
>>> sure if they're still at it.
>>> Thanks for the the jaoo link. I hadn't seen that.
>>> Micah
>>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Dave Hoover wrote:
>>>> Reading and listening to this stuff makes me wonder how many
>>>> teams or
>>>> companies are actively apprenticing developers. I know that 8th
>>>> Light
>>>> has started taking on apprentices this year, and Obtiva's
>>>> apprenticeship program started last year. Is anyone else
>>>> apprenticing?
>>>> Best,
>>>> Dave Hoover
>>>> //obtiva: Agility applied. Software delivered.
I was wondering what is your opinion on a mentor/apprentice "virtual"
relationship through collaborative mediums such as Skype, MSN, telephone,
etc.? Is it even possible? Personally I rather have a face-to-face
experience, but with today's technologies it could be a feasible and more
accessible solution for those mentors that are more nomad. Since we're
living in the Internet era, that kind of relationship could become a de
facto in the years to come.
I'm curious to know what you guys think about that...is it
recommended/possible?
Brian
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Micah Martin <micahmar...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Thanks for the background of Ken's apprenticeship model. I'm glad
> you're here to share it.
> One thing I've found very interesting about Ken's approach is that he
> would actually charge his apprentices. In principle, I agree that the
> value exchange goes from mentor to apprentice and it is just that an
> apprentice should pay his mentor. However, in our society, the
> concept is orthogonal to common thought and hard for many people to
> accept.
> How did this model work for Ken? Did he get many paying apprentices?
> Did the apprentices get their money's worth?
> Micah
> On Nov 19, 2008, at 9:23 AM, aiwilliams wrote:
> > Hello, all. I'll take this thread as an opportunity to introduce
> > myself and give you an update on Ken...
> > My name is Adam Williams. I believe I was Ken's 2nd, 3rd or 4th
> > apprentice - not certain as there were three of us that came on board
> > at the same time. 2000 was a booming year for RoleModel. My only
> > computer software development training came from Ken and the folks
> > that were incredibly influenced by him. 2002 brought the steep decline
> > in work for RoleModel, which meant we needed to look for other work,
> > though I have worked with RoleModel on large and small projects since
> > (some as short as 6 weeks, one as long as 1.5 years).
> > I couldn't say that any of us from Ken's shop have had a 'significant
> > impact on the profession', but I believe we've had a significant
> > impact in the life of people we have worked with thanks to our
> > training at RoleModel.
> > Nathaniel Talbott started the Terralien company. Terralien is
> > interesting in the way it has everyone as a contractor and has allowed
> > non-'Rails Rockstars' to become experienced Ruby and Rails developers,
> > all from their homes, with full access to Nathaniel's experience
> > through Campfire, etc. Of course, he speaks at Ruby and Rails
> > conferences every year, and runs the local Ruby users group, having
> > 35-50 regular attendees. I don't think he's 30 yet, so I suspect we'll
> > see a book or two out of him someday, and I know some of his vision
> > enough to expect a lot more.
> > I myself have had the opportunity to shape the thinking of a few folks
> > as well, as I spent a couple of years in my basement programming Ruby
> > with an open door policy. I have been the 'lead' developer on many
> > projects, and am presently responsible for MemberHub.com - a project
> > on which the other developer was someone who learned to program in my
> > basement. I have a number of open source software projects - some are
> > even being used by others ;) I'd like to learn more about effective
> > ways to invest in others through apprenticeships, and hope to be
> > involved in business (MemberHub being one of them) that encourage
> > developing the same.
> > And there are many other people that have become exceptional software
> > and business explorers thanks to Ken's desire to prosper others. And
> > he is still doing it.
> > Ken started RoleModel Studios a few years ago and has had many
> > apprentices in the film production business. Of course, in that
> > endeavor, he's a bit of an apprentice himself ;) He is also building a
> > custom home, where he allows the men working with him to bring their
> > able children, who are even paid, so that they may learn to work, a
> > few skills, and get to be with their fathers.
> > Glad for men like yourselves,
> > adam
> > On Nov 18, 10:42 am, "Dave Hoover" <dave.hoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Micah,
> >> I was very much inspired by Role Model's apprenticeship program
> >> when I
> >> started the apprenticeship program at Obtiva. I'm also unsure
> >> whether
> >> Ken is currently taking on apprentices. Watching Bob, Pete, and
> >> Michael made me wonder whether people of their caliber regularly take
> >> on apprentices. Surely their apprentices would have a significant
> >> impact on the profession.
> >> --Dave
> >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Micah Martin
> >> <micahmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Good question Dave.
> >>> Object Mentor had an apprenticeship program while I worked there and
> >>> Role Model software had been doing apprenticeship for a while. Not
> >>> sure if they're still at it.
> >>> Thanks for the the jaoo link. I hadn't seen that.
> >>> Micah
> >>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Dave Hoover wrote:
> >>>> Reading and listening to this stuff makes me wonder how many
> >>>> teams or
> >>>> companies are actively apprenticing developers. I know that 8th
> >>>> Light
> >>>> has started taking on apprentices this year, and Obtiva's
> >>>> apprenticeship program started last year. Is anyone else
> >>>> apprenticing?
I think it depends on your learning style and the mentor's teaching style. For me, it is important to do it in person, because many of the things I learn from my mentor are non-verbal. He hasn't necessarily taught me how to program in ruby or java. Those for the most part I could do at home with a book. Much of my mentorship is often learning about thoroughness, professionalism, communication, and such topics. Most of those I need to have a good example to follow, as well as some advice when I stray.
Much of this is just my situation and learning style, but it has been my experience that in person is imperative for my apprenticeship and my mentoring my apprentice. There are too many things that can not be properly articulated in words, or if they can, I don't necessarily think to say them. Often it is just the experience of working with someone day to day that I learn the most.
Paul
On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Brian Di Croce wrote:
> I was wondering what is your opinion on a mentor/apprentice > "virtual" relationship through collaborative mediums such as Skype, > MSN, telephone, etc.? Is it even possible? Personally I rather > have a face-to-face experience, but with today's technologies it > could be a feasible and more accessible solution for those mentors > that are more nomad. Since we're living in the Internet era, that > kind of relationship could become a de facto in the years to come.
> I'm curious to know what you guys think about that...is it > recommended/possible?
> One thing I've found very interesting about Ken's approach is that he > would actually charge his apprentices. In principle, I agree that the > value exchange goes from mentor to apprentice and it is just that an > apprentice should pay his mentor. However, in our society, the > concept is orthogonal to common thought and hard for many people to > accept.
> How did this model work for Ken? Did he get many paying apprentices? > Did the apprentices get their money's worth?
I don't believe he actually ever got anyone to pay. It is quite against the 'I went to college. I deserve to get paid.' mentality, and the 'I've got debt. I need money.' circumstances of many folks. I certainly could not have become a developer had I not actually been paid by Ken myself! So, I totally understand the dilemma. Anyways, I think it makes sense to pay something - even if it's only 7.50 an hour (or whatever), when an apprentice is on a paying project. They provide at least the value of challenging our thinking, etc, and it's not unreasonable to bill them out to the kind of clients I enjoy working with.
I had the opportunity to 'apprentice' someone remotely, and we used
screen sharing on Macbooks. It worked quite well, but I would agree
that in person, on the same project is WAAAY better. That experience
was more of an opportunity for him to have me help think through
problems. More opportunity to learn. This is a significant part of our
reasoning for choosing to educate our children outside the state run
school system. We want them to learn to interact in the world they'll
spend most of their lives in - life ;)
> I think it depends on your learning style and the mentor's teaching
> style. For me, it is important to do it in person, because many of
> the things I learn from my mentor are non-verbal. He hasn't
> necessarily taught me how to program in ruby or java. Those for the
> most part I could do at home with a book. Much of my mentorship is
> often learning about thoroughness, professionalism, communication, and
> such topics. Most of those I need to have a good example to follow,
> as well as some advice when I stray.
> Much of this is just my situation and learning style, but it has been
> my experience that in person is imperative for my apprenticeship and
> my mentoring my apprentice. There are too many things that can not be
> properly articulated in words, or if they can, I don't necessarily
> think to say them. Often it is just the experience of working with
> someone day to day that I learn the most.
> Paul
> On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Brian Di Croce wrote:
>> Greetings to all,
>> I was wondering what is your opinion on a mentor/apprentice
>> "virtual" relationship through collaborative mediums such as Skype,
>> MSN, telephone, etc.? Is it even possible? Personally I rather
>> have a face-to-face experience, but with today's technologies it
>> could be a feasible and more accessible solution for those mentors
>> that are more nomad. Since we're living in the Internet era, that
>> kind of relationship could become a de facto in the years to come.
>> I'm curious to know what you guys think about that...is it
>> recommended/possible?
I haven't ever apprenticed someone remotely. I work in a large urban area (Chicago) and therefore it's not too difficult to find local apprentices that can join our co-located team to pair program with us. This is the simplest and most effective approach to apprenticeship that I could think of. I am confident that apprenticing someone in an open workspace in a team environment will always be superior to "virtual" mentoring, even if the virtual mentor is a better mentor.
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Paul Pagel <paulwpa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Brian,
> I think it depends on your learning style and the mentor's teaching > style. For me, it is important to do it in person, because many of > the things I learn from my mentor are non-verbal. He hasn't > necessarily taught me how to program in ruby or java. Those for the > most part I could do at home with a book. Much of my mentorship is > often learning about thoroughness, professionalism, communication, and > such topics. Most of those I need to have a good example to follow, > as well as some advice when I stray.
> Much of this is just my situation and learning style, but it has been > my experience that in person is imperative for my apprenticeship and > my mentoring my apprentice. There are too many things that can not be > properly articulated in words, or if they can, I don't necessarily > think to say them. Often it is just the experience of working with > someone day to day that I learn the most.
> Paul
> On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Brian Di Croce wrote:
>> Greetings to all,
>> I was wondering what is your opinion on a mentor/apprentice >> "virtual" relationship through collaborative mediums such as Skype, >> MSN, telephone, etc.? Is it even possible? Personally I rather >> have a face-to-face experience, but with today's technologies it >> could be a feasible and more accessible solution for those mentors >> that are more nomad. Since we're living in the Internet era, that >> kind of relationship could become a de facto in the years to come.
>> I'm curious to know what you guys think about that...is it >> recommended/possible?
> Is it safe to say that business models that require a bunch of travel
> are not conducive to apprenticeship?
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Robert Martin
> <uncle...@objectmentor.com> wrote:
>> I would love to take on an apprentice or two; but the travel
>> schedule is a
>> killer for them.
>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 9:42 , Dave Hoover wrote:
>> Micah,
>> I was very much inspired by Role Model's apprenticeship program
>> when I
>> started the apprenticeship program at Obtiva. I'm also unsure
>> whether
>> Ken is currently taking on apprentices. Watching Bob, Pete, and
>> Michael made me wonder whether people of their caliber regularly take
>> on apprentices. Surely their apprentices would have a significant
>> impact on the profession.
>> --Dave
>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Micah Martin
>> <micahmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good question Dave.
>> Object Mentor had an apprenticeship program while I worked there and
>> Role Model software had been doing apprenticeship for a while. Not
>> sure if they're still at it.
>> Thanks for the the jaoo link. I hadn't seen that.
>> Micah
>> On Nov 18, 2008, at 7:07 AM, Dave Hoover wrote:
>> I was just reading Paul's blog post about "Observing a Craftsman".
There are of course graduate programs which are in themselves
discriminatory (there is a lot of great talent out there that have NO
higher educational background).
The other problem with graduate programs is they can sometimes ==
cheap labor.
I wonder if the emphasis moved away from grad programmes to
apprenteships (possibly 'certified' by a third party) whether the
quality of developer would go up (I am certain it will but by how
much)?
On Nov 18, 1:07 pm, "Dave Hoover" <dave.hoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Reading and listening to this stuff makes me wonder how many teams or
> companies are actively apprenticing developers. I know that 8th Light
> has started taking on apprentices this year, and Obtiva's
> apprenticeship program started last year. Is anyone else
> apprenticing?
> Best,
> Dave Hoover
> //obtiva: Agility applied. Software delivered.
> There are of course graduate programs which are in themselves
> discriminatory (there is a lot of great talent out there that have NO
> higher educational background).
> The other problem with graduate programs is they can sometimes ==
> cheap labor.
> I wonder if the emphasis moved away from grad programmes to
> apprenteships (possibly 'certified' by a third party) whether the
> quality of developer would go up (I am certain it will but by how
> much)?
> On Nov 18, 1:07 pm, "Dave Hoover" <dave.hoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Reading and listening to this stuff makes me wonder how many teams or
> > companies are actively apprenticing developers. I know that 8th Light
> > has started taking on apprentices this year, and Obtiva's
> > apprenticeship program started last year. Is anyone else
> > apprenticing?
If you're asking can apprenticeship work? The answer is yes, it can.
It currently works for us. And I believe it currently works for 8th
Light. I think I can speak for Paul and Micah when I invite anyone
who would like to learn more about apprenticeship to visit and observe
our apprentices in action, as Corey Haines has been doing
(http://www.coreyhaines.com/tour2008/) this week (at 8th Light) and
last week (at Obtiva).
Regarding apprenticeship becoming obsolete in software, that's
certainly a possibility, but I doubt it will happen anytime soon.
Apprenticeship programs will probably may remain relatively rare, but
I think it they be appropriate for many years because 1) most formal
eductions do not adequately prepare graduates to develop software for
customers, and 2) thanks to the Internet and open source, software
development is one of the few crafts that can be self-taught, at
almost no cost, and can quickly provide a relatively high income, and
therefore we need a way of training self-taught programmers that will
allow them to continue making money.
Best,
Dave Hoover
//obtiva: Agility applied. Software delivered.
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Chris <chrislebar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> can this work? apprenticing is obsolete in other professions, why
> won't that happen here?
> On Nov 20, 10:02 am, Peter Gillard-Moss <peter.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There are of course graduate programs which are in themselves
>> discriminatory (there is a lot of great talent out there that have NO
>> higher educational background).
>> The other problem with graduate programs is they can sometimes ==
>> cheap labor.
>> I wonder if the emphasis moved away from grad programmes to
>> apprenteships (possibly 'certified' by a third party) whether the
>> quality of developer would go up (I am certain it will but by how
>> much)?
>> On Nov 18, 1:07 pm, "Dave Hoover" <dave.hoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Reading and listening to this stuff makes me wonder how many teams or
>> > companies are actively apprenticing developers. I know that 8th Light
>> > has started taking on apprentices this year, and Obtiva's
>> > apprenticeship program started last year. Is anyone else
>> > apprenticing?
> can this work? apprenticing is obsolete in other professions, why > won't that happen here?
Medicine is still heavily based on apprenticeship. So is university- professorship. (A lot of what a professor /should/ teach a PhD grad student is how to be a professor.)
An interesting question would be what's common between those two crafts. "Barriers to entry" comes to mind. I think the barriers in medicine are controlled by the craftsmen; that's definitely the case in professorship.
Another, maybe: medicine is a tactile field. There is a lot of laying on of hands, and it takes a lot of experience to gain the control and perception to (for example) "preg check" a cow or to use "pinging" to infer conclusions about abdominal pain. Professoring isn't tactile in that way, but it does have an element of "explaining while doing" - for example, while collaborating side-by-side on a paper. There's something about explaining something in the middle of doing it --- "watch this!" --- that seems importantly different from explaining before or after.
Artists often also learn through apprenticeship. For example, my understanding of a typical Masters of Fine Arts programme is that the student is more-or-less apprenticed to a series of experienced practitioners. (This is reminiscent of the medieval journeyman, going from place to place to learn from different masters.)
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Brian Marick <mar...@exampler.com> wrote:
> On Dec 10, 2008, at 7:04 PM, Chris wrote:
> > can this work? apprenticing is obsolete in other professions, why
> > won't that happen here?
> Medicine is still heavily based on apprenticeship. So is university-
> professorship. (A lot of what a professor /should/ teach a PhD grad
> student is how to be a professor.)
> An interesting question would be what's common between those two
> crafts. "Barriers to entry" comes to mind. I think the barriers in
> medicine are controlled by the craftsmen; that's definitely the case
> in professorship.
> Another, maybe: medicine is a tactile field. There is a lot of laying
> on of hands, and it takes a lot of experience to gain the control and
> perception to (for example) "preg check" a cow or to use "pinging" to
> infer conclusions about abdominal pain. Professoring isn't tactile in
> that way, but it does have an element of "explaining while doing" -
> for example, while collaborating side-by-side on a paper. There's
> something about explaining something in the middle of doing it ---
> "watch this!" --- that seems importantly different from explaining
> before or after.
> Artists often also learn through apprenticeship. For example, my
> understanding of a typical Masters of Fine Arts programme is that the
> student is more-or-less apprenticed to a series of experienced
> practitioners. (This is reminiscent of the medieval journeyman, going
> from place to place to learn from different masters.)
On Dec 11, 12:04 pm, Chris <chrislebar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> can this work? apprenticing is obsolete in other professions, why
> won't that happen here?
In my opinion, those companies that do actively apprentice people are
making a smart 'investment'.
We know that getting good people goes along way to helping making a
project successful. In software however its very hard to know whether
a person would be the right fit for your company/project or not. As
Dave Hoover stated: '...most formal educations do not adequately
prepare graduates to develop software for customers...' and even if we
are taking on a developer with a few years experience there still
remains the problem of fitting in with the tools, technologies and
techniques been used in your company/project.
William Edwards Deming in Out of Crisis talks about how important it
is to get quality from your suppliers, considering people to be the
most important thing supplied to a project/organization, apprenticing
can help new hires to reach a higher level of quality much quicker
than if they were left on their own. Thus the project/organization
will be able to get greater value from their new hires in the medium-
to-long term and in a way that is sustainable to the project/
organization. (at the moment you could say that the quality of people
is outsourced to colleges/universities at the moment but the people
they produce will vary widely and may not suit at first be a perfect
fit for your project/organization.)
It makes monetary sense for an organization to encourage the transfer
of knowledge and skill from high-value (highly paid) people to new
hires who currently are lower-value (lesser paid) people. Besides now
having another person with a highly valued skill (at lower cost for
now), the quality-of-work gap closes and the attainment of high
quality in the making of anything aids reduction of costs through
rework (defects).
NOTE: I am not comparing manufacturing in a factory to be the same as
producing software...
My own experience of apprenticeship was a poor one, while not
officially an apprenticeship program, they hired a lot of young/out of
college developers (approx 20) to work on a new green field project.
However due to the development method, there wasn't a lot of transfer
of knowledge from those in the know to us newbies. Most feedback was
received in reviews that occurred once you had spent weeks writing
your code. Being honest, my work wasn't very good, and I didn't feel
like I wasn't getting better quick enough or that the facility was
there for me to improve.
In the end I took the route of leaving to work for another company
that developed in an Agile/XP manner. Within 3-6 months, I learned
more from working day-to-day in a much closer manner with others
(using pair programming etc). So much so that I could confidently say
I learned more their than I had in all the time I spent in my first
job and all the time I spent in college. Of course college created an
initial platform to work off and all that I learned from my first job
added to my experience. No matter how bad a job/role you think you are
in, there is always something to be learned from it.
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