Tech professionals make pitch to girls
Chive Mynde
Tech professionals make pitch to girls
By Suzanne Pardington
CONTRA COSTA TIMES
Women in technology careers get used to being the only woman in
the room. They survive by refusing to be intimidated, despite frequent
assumptions that they are only there to take notes.
One group of professional women is trying to make it less lonely at
the top by encouraging teen-age girls to consider technology jobs
through a series of round-table discussions at Contra Costa County
high schools.
The Greater Bay Area Chapter of Women in Technology International
kicked off the series Wednesday at Mt. Diablo High School in Concord
and plans to take it to schools in Moraga, Walnut Creek, Pleasant Hill
and Danville this spring.
At Mt. Diablo High, several panelists told about two dozen students
about their career paths and how they use technology in their jobs.
Although many students have used computers and the Internet, some
hadn't heard of the women's jobs, such as network engineer and
financial adviser.
Dianne Lamendola said she started the round tables because she's the
only female vice president at Safeway in Walnut Creek, and there are
not many women in the pipeline behind her.
"When I was in high school, I didn't have a clue," she said. "If we do
anything, we leave them with an idea of the opportunities out there."
Less than one-third of middle and high school students in technology
classes, clubs and other activities are girls, according to the U.S.
Department of Labor.
"I think there's still an influence that says tech is for geeks or for
guys," Lamendola said.
Yvette Solis and Dianna Silva, both 17-year-old seniors interested in
pursuing technology careers, said there are more boys than girls in
their computer classes, but the girls are just as good.
"I think it's because (the girls) think it's harder than it is," said
Dianna. "It's a mindset that they have."
Students said the women at the round table gave them good advice, such
as exploring different majors in college and improving their
communication skills.
"We've never been in the real world," said Yvette. "We don't know what
it's like. They've been there already. They can show that it's
possible."
For details on the round-table discussions, call 925-944-4548. To
reach Women in Technology International, call Marie Minder at 925-
838-9163.
-
Science is not belief, but the will to find out.
Ian
> Thursday, Apr 11, 2002
>
> Tech professionals make pitch to girls
>
> By Suzanne Pardington
> CONTRA COSTA TIMES
>
> Women in technology careers get used to being the only woman in
> the room. They survive by refusing to be intimidated, despite frequent
> assumptions that they are only there to take notes.
Nonsense. We've plenty of women in our office, and they make tea as
well.
>
> One group of professional women is trying to make it less lonely at
> the top by encouraging teen-age girls to consider technology jobs
> through a series of round-table discussions at Contra Costa County
> high schools.
A waste of time, the small percentage of women who are naturally any
good, are already doing it. All the rest have not got the ability.
>
> The Greater Bay Area Chapter of Women in Technology International
> kicked off the series Wednesday at Mt. Diablo High School in Concord
> and plans to take it to schools in Moraga, Walnut Creek, Pleasant Hill
> and Danville this spring.
>
> At Mt. Diablo High, several panelists told about two dozen students
> about their career paths and how they use technology in their jobs.
Most women think using technology is typing on a word processor or using
excel, instead of a calculator and typewriter. Unless they can actually
make a wordprocessor, then it is not worth the bother teaching them.
>
> Although many students have used computers and the Internet, some
> hadn't heard of the women's jobs, such as network engineer and
> financial adviser.
Oh really, the intracacies of IPv6 are nothing to today's hairdressers,
a bit of encouragement, and they'll be crawling under desks.
>
> Dianne Lamendola said she started the round tables because she's the
> only female vice president at Safeway in Walnut Creek, and there are
> not many women in the pipeline behind her.
Perhaps she hasn't considered that she's the only woman with any
raw IT talent?
>
> "When I was in high school, I didn't have a clue," she said. "If we do
> anything, we leave them with an idea of the opportunities out there."
>
> Less than one-third of middle and high school students in technology
> classes, clubs and other activities are girls, according to the U.S.
> Department of Labor.
>
> "I think there's still an influence that says tech is for geeks or for
> guys," Lamendola said.
It's not an influence. It's brain structure.
>
> Yvette Solis and Dianna Silva, both 17-year-old seniors interested in
> pursuing technology careers, said there are more boys than girls in
> their computer classes, but the girls are just as good.
Bollocks. They're both lying, probably because they can't percieve
any skill greater than their own ability.
>
> "I think it's because (the girls) think it's harder than it is," said
> Dianna. "It's a mindset that they have."
Quite it is simple, so simple in fact, that one does no even need to
think about it.
>
> Students said the women at the round table gave them good advice, such
> as exploring different majors in college and improving their
> communication skills.
Communication skills? Do you mean talking even more. Yak Yak Tak.
>
> "We've never been in the real world," said Yvette. "We don't know what
> it's like. They've been there already. They can show that it's
> possible."
Wahahahahahahah!
Michael Snyder
>
> Thursday, Apr 11, 2002
>
> Tech professionals make pitch to girls
>
> By Suzanne Pardington
> CONTRA COSTA TIMES
>
> Women in technology careers get used to being the only woman in
> the room.
True enough.
> They survive by refusing to be intimidated, despite frequent
> assumptions that they are only there to take notes.
Flat-out lie, and I speak from personal knowledge. I've worked
in the tech sector for twenty years, and I've worked with lots
of women. NOBODY assumes that a female engineer is "only there
to take notes". I work with female engineers and female systems
administrators literally every day, and they receive every bit
as much if not more respect than their male peers.
is...@bibble.com
i'm not agreeing with chive but spinning in a different direction - real
respect? or tiptoeing around? in construction i see a lot of 'prim and proper'
around women and then dissing behind closed doors.
anectdotal - my project engineer was complaining to a woman
one day about not being able to yell at women like men and the woman he was talking
to says, 'hey, you got no problem yelling at me' and he says 'well, your different, i try
to treat you like an equal'.
Society
news:3CB7747A...@redhat.com...
>
>Devin McAndrews as "C hive Myn de" cut and pasted...
>>
>>Thursday, Apr 11, 2002
>>
>>Tech professionals make pitch to girls
>>By Suzanne Pardington CONTRA COSTA TIMES
>>
>>Women in technology careers get used to being
>>the only woman in the room.
>
> True enough.
Yeah. And it's not men keeping women out,
it's women choosing to keep themselves out.
Around junior year of high school, boys begin to repress
their interest in foreign languages, literature, art history,
sociology, and anthropology because they know an art history
major will make less than an engineer. Partially as a result
of his different spending expectation (the possibility he
might have to support a woman but cannot expect a woman
to support him), more than 85 percent of students who take
engineering as a college major are men; more than 80 percent
of the art history majors are women.
The difference in the earnings of the female art historian
vs. the male engineer appears to be a measure of discrimination,
when in fact both sexes knew ahead of time engineering
would pay more. In fact, the woman who enters engineering
with the same lack of experience as the man averages $571
per year _more_ than her male counterpart.
Warren Farrell, _The Myth of Male Power_;
New York: Berkley Books, 1996
page 11. [emphasis Farrell's]
Virtually every US engineering school campus has a student
chapter of SWE, the Society of Women Engineers. When I
was in engineering school, if it had been the Society FOR
Women Engineers every gear-head I knew would have joined
faster than you could say "slide rule." (Gave away a hint
'bout my age, there, didn't I? ;-)
BTW, the news-babe who scribbled Devin's latest cut
and paste job doesn't notice that there's no S_M_E anywhere.
The feminist woe-is-women mindset is so strong in its
true believers that they ignore reality that contradicts
their dogma and invent fantasies to support their faith.
>>They survive by refusing to be intimidated, despite frequent
>>assumptions that they are only there to take notes.
>
>Flat-out lie, and I speak from personal knowledge.
I'll add my personal knowledge in support of yours, Michael.
Did the news-babe support her scurrilious scribbles with
any facts, even one anecdote from one 'intimidated'
woman engineer? No, of course not. Feminists expect
their Big Lies to go unchallenged. (As you already know
but for the benefit of newbies, Michael, I'll note here that
Big Lie propaganda was one of the techniques for promoting
hatred of outsider birth-groups by the 20th century name-
sakes of today's feminazis.)
> I've worked in the tech sector for twenty years, and I've
> worked with lots of women. NOBODY assumes that
> a female engineer is "only there to take notes". I work
> with female engineers and female systems administrators
> literally every day, and they receive every bit as much
> if not more respect than their male peers.
Yeah, because those women engineers spent years
facing down other *women* attempting to intimidate
a woman who pursues a career in technology. The
phrase 'female mafia' exists for good reason! Men
respect people who had to be a survivor to reach
honorable goals. I myself have interviewed women
engineers, techs, and tech writers, then made hiring
recommendations on just that basis. AA girls, tho',
got the thumbs down.
--
All excuses for feminism depend on the credulity
of their swallowers.
Chive Mynde
> Chive Mynde wrote:
> >
> > Thursday, Apr 11, 2002
> >
> > Tech professionals make pitch to girls
> >
> > By Suzanne Pardington
> > CONTRA COSTA TIMES
> >
> > Women in technology careers get used to being the only woman in
> > the room.
>
> True enough.
>
> > They survive by refusing to be intimidated, despite frequent
> > assumptions that they are only there to take notes.
>
> Flat-out lie, and I speak from personal knowledge.
You're a woman?
-=Chive
WhiteDragon©
<is...@bibble.com> wrote in message news:8f7t8$9...@netnews.attbi.com...
Thats because some women truly want to be equal.
And it shows in their attitudes and performance.And in their relationships
with male coworkers.
And you can treat them equal with out fear of law suits or complications.
And the competion is real and based on qualifications.
OTOH,there are women who dont truly want to be equal.
They just desier to be somewhere or do something to make the point that they
can.
This is a big difference and IMO this is what gives women a bad name in true
competion.
They push their way into jobs where they are really not qualified because
the law allows it.
Then once they are there, they cannot take the heat and cry like babies.
Now, ask yourself:
Who teaches women they can "be somewhere or do something" just to make the
point they can?
~wd
Giant Attitude
>
> Tech professionals make pitch to girls
STRIKE THREE!
Greg the Bunny
had taught me that they're really different, militant, and looking for a
fight. Any man that came on to the site with an attitude like that, I'd
just avoid.
I've seen it too many times: Woman w/attitude invades site, makes demands,
alienates most others, looses job. Then complains of harrassment or
prejudice.
Fact is if ~any~ asshole -- disregard the contents of the other side of the
pants -- came on the job with an attitude problem and a bite me approach,
we'd all be lining up to get them outa there.
Getting these buildings up is aggrivating enough without some Federally
Protected PIA around.
Gt(he builder)B
<is...@bibble.com> wrote in message news:8f7t8$9...@netnews.attbi.com...
Michael Snyder
There it is, feminist lie #1 -- "a person cannot understand anything
about women unles she is one".
Deborah Terreson
----------
In article <3CBB643F...@redhat.com>, Michael Snyder
<msn...@redhat.com> wrote:
Then Parg should STFU: After all, he is a man, no?
Shawn Pickrell
i thought chive was a man?
--
... Shawn Pickrell, the Majority Stockholder of All Usenet
Stockholders may contact me at shawn_p...@yahoo.com
Jay Vonbriel
wrote:
>
>i thought chive was a man?
Not anyone's fault but your's that you can't tell men from women.
Ian
Wahahaha. Well said michael.
Lan
> There it is, feminist lie #1 -- "a person cannot understand anything
> about women unles she is one".
I don't see why men can understand horses without being a horse, stars
without being a star, the sea without being the sea, plants without
being a plant, and not women without being a woman.
--
Kill all feminists, make them feel the pain they are responsible for creating
so that it destroys them. Stop at nothing to make every single fucking evil
sexist female feel every thing they did do, plus everything they could have
done, and added to that everything they even ever wanted to do. DESTROY THEM
ICQ: 26027485
Chive Mynde
> >
> > Thursday, Apr 11, 2002
> >
> > Tech professionals make pitch to girls
> >
> > By Suzanne Pardington
> > CONTRA COSTA TIMES
> >
> > Women in technology careers get used to being the only woman in
> > the room.
>
> True enough.
>
> > They survive by refusing to be intimidated, despite frequent
> > assumptions that they are only there to take notes.
>
> Flat-out lie, and I speak from personal knowledge.
Of course you speak from personal knowledge. After all,
you are confirmed and verified liar, and that fact has been
demonstrated time and time again.
However, don't let the facts get in the way of your religious,
anti-feminist beliefs.
The FACTUAL assumption that women are "only there to take notes"
is based on the female-dominated admin asst/secretarial position.
And as usual, your "personal knowledge" is contradicted by
the evidence, facts, and actual data.
-=Chive
Chive Mynde
> > >
> > > Thursday, Apr 11, 2002
> > >
> > > Tech professionals make pitch to girls
> > >
> > > By Suzanne Pardington
> > > CONTRA COSTA TIMES
> > >
> > > Women in technology careers get used to being the only woman in
> > > the room.
> >
> > True enough.
> >
> > > They survive by refusing to be intimidated, despite frequent
> > > assumptions that they are only there to take notes.
> >
> > Flat-out lie, and I speak from personal knowledge. I've worked
> > in the tech sector for twenty years, and I've worked with lots
> > of women. NOBODY assumes that a female engineer is "only there
> > to take notes". I work with female engineers and female systems
> > administrators literally every day, and they receive every bit
> > as much if not more respect than their male peers.
>
> i'm not agreeing with chive but spinning in a different direction - real
> respect? or tiptoeing around? in construction i see a lot of 'prim and proper'
> around women and then dissing behind closed doors.
That's exactly what goes on in IT, although Michael "The Troll" Snyder
fails to see it because he is blinded by his anti-feminist religious
beliefs. And I speak from personal experience, something Snyder
is clearly lying about, since everyone knows he hasn't worked a
day in his life since his accident. Although, one could make
the argument that he has been *working* in court to fight charges
of rape that have been made against him by the women he has harmed.
Sadly, he may be able to argue that his head-injury is responsible
for his abusive behavior towards women. Still, the courts should
lock up people like Snyder as much as possible. He's a clear and
present danger to society, and the sooner he's behind bars, the better.
-=Chive
Michael Snyder
>
> is...@bibble.com wrote in message news:<8f7t8$9...@netnews.attbi.com>...
> > Michael Snyder <msn...@redhat.com> wrote in <3CB7747A...@redhat.com>:
> > > >
> > > > Thursday, Apr 11, 2002
> > > >
> > > > Tech professionals make pitch to girls
> > > >
> > > > By Suzanne Pardington
> > > > CONTRA COSTA TIMES
> > > >
> > > > Women in technology careers get used to being the only woman in
> > > > the room.
> > >
> > > True enough.
> > >
> > > > They survive by refusing to be intimidated, despite frequent
> > > > assumptions that they are only there to take notes.
> > >
> > > Flat-out lie, and I speak from personal knowledge. I've worked
> > > in the tech sector for twenty years, and I've worked with lots
> > > of women. NOBODY assumes that a female engineer is "only there
> > > to take notes". I work with female engineers and female systems
> > > administrators literally every day, and they receive every bit
> > > as much if not more respect than their male peers.
> >
> > i'm not agreeing with chive but spinning in a different direction - real
> > respect? or tiptoeing around? in construction i see a lot of 'prim and proper'
> > around women and then dissing behind closed doors.
>
> That's exactly what goes on in IT, although Michael "The Troll" Snyder
> fails to see it because
I fail to see it because it isn't there. The women engineers and
system administrators where I work are respected BOTH in their
own presence AND behind closed doors. Chive, as usual, does not
know what he's talking about.
Michael Snyder
>
> Michael Snyder <msn...@redhat.com> wrote in message news:<3CB7747A...@redhat.com>...
> > Chive Mynde wrote:
> > >
> > > Thursday, Apr 11, 2002
> > >
> > > Tech professionals make pitch to girls
> > >
> > > By Suzanne Pardington
> > > CONTRA COSTA TIMES
> > >
> > > Women in technology careers get used to being the only woman in
> > > the room.
> >
> > True enough.
> >
> > > They survive by refusing to be intimidated, despite frequent
> > > assumptions that they are only there to take notes.
> >
> > Flat-out lie, and I speak from personal knowledge.
>
> Of course you speak from personal knowledge. After all,
> you are
A computer professional -- as you are not.
ishka bibble
you are truly fucked up - and out of line
ishka bibble
i see where you are coming from but the job i am discussing is
construction engineering. and the the boss in question above was
lamenting that he couldn't call women 'fucking assholes', throw them
off the job or get into shoving matches with them.
also your pov suggestst that it is fine for men alone to set the
standard of how one should treat their workers. frankly i think the
boss in question above should have been moving in the direction of
treating men the way he treated most women.
also beleive me, no one feared law suits - a superintendent who went
around trying to kiss and touch every woman in the place. there was
only one management response to this - one day one of the women said
the next time he grabbed her she was going to scream rape and the
project manager said 'oh god, don't do that.'
finally bear in mind after everything i just said - i _really_ like
the people i work with and most of what went/goes on i don't really
have a problem with or consider it 'just one of those things'. i am
simply saying that your premise was a series of jumping to
conclusions.
in fact come to think of it the only woman who was perhaps not
unqualified but undereducated for her position is the one he 'tried to
treat like an equal'.
ishka bibble
michael didn't you call bobbi arrogant or presumptive or something
like that when she suggested she understood men's issues?
Michael Snyder
Uh - oh ... now you'll be on his killfile list! ;-)
WhiteDragon©
"ishka bibble" <ishka_bi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e17f0149.02041...@posting.google.com...
Well, women who want true equality can be called a fucking asshole and the
boss dont have to worry.
Why?
Because she is being treated just as any other man would be treated.
|
| also your pov suggestst that it is fine for men alone to set the
| standard of how one should treat their workers. frankly i think the
| boss in question above should have been moving in the direction of
| treating men the way he treated most women.
Why?
Why change the way buisness in that industry has been done for decades if
not centuries?
If women want true equality, then they take the good as well as the bad.
Alot of women can do this. Some cannot.
In fact i remember a "Grace Under Fire" episode that addressed just this
point.
And this was a show targeted at women.
Grace could take the heat on the job and was generally accepted by the male
workers in a similar type of construstion enviroment.
Another women winned and complained and eventually got fired.
It was a great episode on "true equality" on the job.
Why do men always have to be the one to change?
|
| also beleive me, no one feared law suits - a superintendent who went
| around trying to kiss and touch every woman in the place. there was
| only one management response to this - one day one of the women said
| the next time he grabbed her she was going to scream rape and the
| project manager said 'oh god, don't do that.'
|
The super needed his ass fired.
Treat woman as total equals.
But expect them to act as total equals.
| finally bear in mind after everything i just said - i _really_ like
| the people i work with and most of what went/goes on i don't really
| have a problem with or consider it 'just one of those things'. i am
| simply saying that your premise was a series of jumping to
| conclusions.
|
| in fact come to think of it the only woman who was perhaps not
| unqualified but undereducated for her position is the one he 'tried to
| treat like an equal'.
| >
The manager needs some people skills/judgement skills help.
~wd
WhiteDragon©
Accurate :)
Welcome to the killfile list.
AKA- The Chive Mynde Hall Of Flame
Greg
> > Chive Mynde wrote:
> > >
> > > Thursday, Apr 11, 2002
> > >
> > > Tech professionals make pitch to girls
> > >
> > > By Suzanne Pardington
> > > CONTRA COSTA TIMES
> > >
> > > Women in technology careers get used to being the only woman in
> > > the room.
> >
> > True enough.
> >
> > > They survive by refusing to be intimidated, despite frequent
> > > assumptions that they are only there to take notes.
> >
> > Flat-out lie, and I speak from personal knowledge.
>
> Of course you speak from personal knowledge. After all,
> you are confirmed and verified liar, and that fact has been
> demonstrated time and time again.
When? Search Google and show us the messages. Or admit that you're a
raving liar.
> However, don't let the facts get in the way of your religious,
> anti-feminist beliefs.
>
> The FACTUAL assumption that women are "only there to take notes"
> is based on the female-dominated admin asst/secretarial position.
You make absolutely no sense. The article implied that women who
aren't there to take notes are assumed to be there to take notes.
Since secretaries really are there to take notes, it is not sexist or
discriminatory to assume they are there to take notes. Hence, Michael
assumes, rightly, that the article is talking about professional women
falling victim to that assumption. Michael questions this. You
respond to Michael's question by referring to "evidence, facts, and
actual data" that exist only in your fantasies. Get help for your
delusions, Chive Mynde.
> And as usual, your "personal knowledge" is contradicted by
> the evidence, facts, and actual data.
To what "evidence, facts, and actual data" are you referring, Chapped
Hynde? All I see is yet another of your vacuous articles full of
anectodes. If you're so certain that the evidence contradicts
Michael, you should have no problem showing us this evidence. I'm
looking forward to seeing it!
You're an absolute joke, Chive.
is...@bibble.com
Max Burke
What if these IT geeks/professionals have a 'party' for the girls and no girls
turn up????
What will they do then?
---------------------
# High-tech jobs boring, girls figure Study tries to decode why so few go into
computing
Tuesday, April 11, 2000
By ANDREW MOLLISON
COX NEWS SERVICE
WASHINGTON -- Girls are avoiding high-tech careers not because they fear failing
but because they believe computer jobs are boring and lonely, according to a
study released today.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/gtek11.shtml
--
mlvburke@#%&*.net.nz
Replace the obvious with paradise to email me.
See Found Images at :
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
is...@bibble.com
>
> What if these IT geeks/professionals have a 'party' for the girls and no girls
> turn up????
>
> What will they do then?
huh?
Max Burke
>> "Max Burke" <mlvburke@%$%#@.nz> wrote in
<pt7w8.522$2N4....@news02.tsnz.net>:
>> What if these IT geeks/professionals have a 'party' for the girls and no
girls
>> turn up????
>> What will they do then?
> huh?
See below......
---------------------
# High-tech jobs boring, girls figure Study tries to decode why so few go into
computing....
Michael Snyder
Max Burke wrote in message ...
>><is...@bibble.com> wrote in message news:AYPw8$g...@netnews.attbi.com...
>
>What if these IT geeks/professionals have a 'party' for the girls and no girls
>turn up????
>
>What will they do then?
Get accused of discriminating against those poor helpless girls...
is...@bibble.com
>
> >> "Max Burke" <mlvburke@%$%#@.nz> wrote in
> <pt7w8.522$2N4....@news02.tsnz.net>:
> >> What if these IT geeks/professionals have a 'party' for the girls and no
> girls
> >> turn up????
> >> What will they do then?
>
> > huh?
>
> See below......
oaky but why are you posting this to me - my only question
was around 'real' respect versus 'tiptoeing'
Greg
>
> Tech professionals make pitch to girls
It must chap your hynde that men go into technology of their own
volition, and women have to be goaded into it. So, of course, you
blame men for so few women going into technology.
ishka bibble
why call any of them a fucking asshole?
>
> |
> | also your pov suggestst that it is fine for men alone to set the
> | standard of how one should treat their workers. frankly i think the
> | boss in question above should have been moving in the direction of
> | treating men the way he treated most women.
>
> Why?
> Why change the way buisness in that industry has been done for decades if
> not centuries?
> If women want true equality, then they take the good as well as the bad.
> Alot of women can do this. Some cannot.
> In fact i remember a "Grace Under Fire" episode that addressed just this
> point.
> And this was a show targeted at women.
> Grace could take the heat on the job and was generally accepted by the male
> workers in a similar type of construstion enviroment.
> Another women winned and complained and eventually got fired.
> It was a great episode on "true equality" on the job.
to an extent this is true. otoh, business in that industry has
changed enormously anyway (ie safety issues) so why not incorporate
other changes. it is not as though i am suggesting being respectful
to women and denigratin men - why not change how everyone is treated.
back in the day (some fifty years ago) our company had a
superintendent who literally worked a couple of men to death - using
their double shifts to fuck their wives - think we should let that
happen now?
>
> Why do men always have to be the one to change?
they don't. in fact, it is feminism that has suggested not that men
and thier business change but that women become men.
>
>
> |
> | also beleive me, no one feared law suits - a superintendent who went
> | around trying to kiss and touch every woman in the place. there was
> | only one management response to this - one day one of the women said
> | the next time he grabbed her she was going to scream rape and the
> | project manager said 'oh god, don't do that.'
> |
>
> The super needed his ass fired.
> Treat woman as total equals.
> But expect them to act as total equals.
ah, but that isn't the industry. that super made millions for the
company he wasn't going anywhere.
one woman there said to the project manager - fine, you aren't going
to do anything but then don't do anything when i knock him on his ass
-that seemed about right to me.
>
>
>
> | finally bear in mind after everything i just said - i _really_ like
> | the people i work with and most of what went/goes on i don't really
> | have a problem with or consider it 'just one of those things'. i am
> | simply saying that your premise was a series of jumping to
> | conclusions.
> |
> | in fact come to think of it the only woman who was perhaps not
> | unqualified but undereducated for her position is the one he 'tried to
> | treat like an equal'.
> | >
>
> The manager needs some people skills/judgement skills help.
now, not that i don't agree with you but if i told you somehting
similiar aobut a female boss i have a feeling your reaction may be a
bit stronger.
>
>
> ~wd
WhiteDragon®
Well, this is a good point.
And you are right.
But its not what we were discussing.
I was addressing your statement of the boss "lamenting that he couldn't call
women 'fucking assholes'"
Some industries have allowed cursing for ever.
Why should this change because 'some' woman cannot take it was my point.
Maybe the men can soften their touch.
But i see no need for men to change because women want to be treated equal.
Of course i dont.
But you are changing the facts as this conversation goes on.
I think all people should be treated with respect.
And get paid equally for equal work.
But i also do not believe in favortism.
Men changing behavior to accomodate a woman on the job is in and of
itself, not equal.
Fair is fair.
> >
> > Why do men always have to be the one to change?
>
> they don't. in fact, it is feminism that has suggested not that men
> and thier business change but that women become men.
> >
> >
i'm not sure i understand what you are saying here.
> > |
> > | also beleive me, no one feared law suits - a superintendent who went
> > | around trying to kiss and touch every woman in the place. there was
> > | only one management response to this - one day one of the women said
> > | the next time he grabbed her she was going to scream rape and the
> > | project manager said 'oh god, don't do that.'
> > |
> >
> > The super needed his ass fired.
> > Treat woman as total equals.
> > But expect them to act as total equals.
>
> ah, but that isn't the industry. that super made millions for the
> company he wasn't going anywhere.
>
I have said this in many post.
Its all about "money"
Everything.
> one woman there said to the project manager - fine, you aren't going
> to do anything but then don't do anything when i knock him on his ass
> -that seemed about right to me.
> >
I see no problem with her doing that.
If fact, thats called equality.
If it were a man getting razzed on the job, he would get respect in the same
way.
> >
> >
> > | finally bear in mind after everything i just said - i _really_ like
> > | the people i work with and most of what went/goes on i don't really
> > | have a problem with or consider it 'just one of those things'. i am
> > | simply saying that your premise was a series of jumping to
> > | conclusions.
> > |
> > | in fact come to think of it the only woman who was perhaps not
> > | unqualified but undereducated for her position is the one he 'tried to
> > | treat like an equal'.
> > | >
> >
> > The manager needs some people skills/judgement skills help.
>
> now, not that i don't agree with you but if i told you somehting
> similiar aobut a female boss i have a feeling your reaction may be a
> bit stronger.
> >
Well, again, you are adding another fact, when you add a female boss to the
senero.
But, ok
My reaction would be about the same.
With one exception.
I would look at the female boss's motivation for behaving the same as the
mans you outlined.
Why?
Because there are too many women who have made it to managerial positions
and now
feel they have "something to prove" and it clouds their judgement and reason
and sence of fairness.
This works 2 ways.
1) they are harder on other woman. not wanting to show favoritism
OR
2)they are harder on men to gain favor and grace in the eyes of the other
woman.
Both are wrong.
And i am NOT saying ALL women do this.
But it is common.
~wd
is...@bibble.com
but it is what i am discussing. iow, if women introduce this level of 'hey, that isn't right'
then perhaps that is an improvement. to suggest that women's pov can't offer any improvements
is marginalization.
> I was addressing your statement of the boss "lamenting that he couldn't call
> women 'fucking assholes'"
> Some industries have allowed cursing for ever.
cursing and cursing at someone are two divverent things.
> Why should this change because 'some' woman cannot take it was my point.
> Maybe the men can soften their touch.
> But i see no need for men to change because women want to be treated equal.
is talking to someone like they are shit treating them like an equal perhaps women can
bring an 'improvement'.
i'm not changing the facts - you said why change? i say there are changes all the time
why change some things and omit other changes because they are initiated by women.
> I think all people should be treated with respect.
> And get paid equally for equal work.
>
> But i also do not believe in favortism.
> Men changing behavior to accomodate a woman on the job is in and of
> itself, not equal.
> Fair is fair.
yes, and what is fair should be set by those involved. and if women are involved then they get a
say in what is fair, no?
>
>
>
> > >
> > > Why do men always have to be the one to change?
> >
> > they don't. in fact, it is feminism that has suggested not that men
> > and thier business change but that women become men.
> > >
> > >
>
> i'm not sure i understand what you are saying here.
feminism by an large suggests that women can be men rather than suggesting that a woman's pov
can be brought into business.
>
>
> > > |
> > > | also beleive me, no one feared law suits - a superintendent who went
> > > | around trying to kiss and touch every woman in the place. there was
> > > | only one management response to this - one day one of the women said
> > > | the next time he grabbed her she was going to scream rape and the
> > > | project manager said 'oh god, don't do that.'
> > > |
> > >
> > > The super needed his ass fired.
> > > Treat woman as total equals.
> > > But expect them to act as total equals.
> >
> > ah, but that isn't the industry. that super made millions for the
> > company he wasn't going anywhere.
> >
>
> I have said this in many post.
> Its all about "money"
> Everything.
yep, it is. that is industry. not to hard line you but that is the industry you have suggested
not changing. so i guess if it makes money a super should work men to death.
>
> > one woman there said to the project manager - fine, you aren't going
> > to do anything but then don't do anything when i knock him on his ass
> > -that seemed about right to me.
> > >
>
> I see no problem with her doing that.
> If fact, thats called equality.
> If it were a man getting razzed on the job, he would get respect in the same
> way.
i agree. course the fact is - she or he would be fired if that happened.
i'll accept all of that. however, either way the motivation is power with different pov perhaps
but it is power, no?
>
>
> ~wd
>
WhiteDragon®
>is...@bibble.com> wrote in message news:kZMy8$H...@netnews.attbi.com...
<snip>
> > >
> > > they don't. in fact, it is feminism that has suggested not that men
> > > and thier business change but that women become men.
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > i'm not sure i understand what you are saying here.
>
> feminism by an large suggests that women can be men rather than suggesting
that a woman's pov
> can be brought into business.
I have never known feminism to say "women can be men" sorry.
I have known feminism to say "women should be equal"
and get "equal pay for equal work.
I for one happen to subscribe to this thinking.
But, if women want to be truly equal, then they must 'act' equal.
And perform equal.
And NOT expect to be treated differently then men, but equals.
If they want equal pay, then perform equally.
And NOT expect anything different.
This entire issue to you seems to be the boss cursing.
I am not advocating cursing.
Its not a good style of managing people.
People know true fairness,and they will gravitate to a boss who is truly
fair.
To address the second half of your statement.
"woman's pov can be brought into business" quite sucessfully IMO.
And the women who sucessfully bring their opinions into buisness are
generally
well.. successful.
And are rewarded both with recgonation and money.
Look around, there are alot of successful and wealthy women in America
today.
Are they equal? you bet they are.
How did they achieve this?
They did not "ram" their ideas and views down the throats of others by
saying
"The law says you have to treat me equal"
They competed equally, and accepted losses as well as victories.
IOW, they expected to be treated equal, and behaved as equal.
And were accepted.
Again, its called "Style"
> > Both are wrong.
> > And i am NOT saying ALL women do this.
> > But it is common.
>
> i'll accept all of that. however, either way the motivation is power with
different pov perhaps
> but it is power, no?
Of course its power.
And i do not think either of us said differently.
The 'style' in which someone uses that power makes a great leader, or a poor
leader.
~wd
is...@bibble.com
> >is...@bibble.com> wrote in message news:kZMy8$H...@netnews.attbi.com...
> <snip>
> > > >
> > > > they don't. in fact, it is feminism that has suggested not that men
> > > > and thier business change but that women become men.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > i'm not sure i understand what you are saying here.
> >
> > feminism by an large suggests that women can be men rather than suggesting
> that a woman's pov
> > can be brought into business.
>
>
> I have never known feminism to say "women can be men" sorry.
> I have known feminism to say "women should be equal"
> and get "equal pay for equal work.
> I for one happen to subscribe to this thinking.
>
> But, if women want to be truly equal, then they must 'act' equal.
define act equal.
> And perform equal.
> And NOT expect to be treated differently then men, but equals.
>
> If they want equal pay, then perform equally.
> And NOT expect anything different.
>
> This entire issue to you seems to be the boss cursing.
> I am not advocating cursing.
> Its not a good style of managing people.
> People know true fairness,and they will gravitate to a boss who is truly
> fair.
no, the entire issue to me is that just because it has always been that way doesn't
mean it _should_ always be that way i am using cursing as a tangible example.
look if men and women have different experiences and pov on some things they
bring different things to the table. a pov is not invalid because it is more generally
held by women. and respect is a good example of this. men often put up with things
because from the time they are small boys they are told to suck it up. if they get hurt
physically or emotionally it's be a big boy. girls are told to nurse their pains. (i have seen
this first hand in daycare) somewhere between the two is probably a good place to be.
but to suggest that if women want to be in business they have to just go along with the
way it has been because that is the way it has been is not reasonable. unless you think
there ais no room for improvements.
>
> To address the second half of your statement.
> "woman's pov can be brought into business" quite sucessfully IMO.
> And the women who sucessfully bring their opinions into buisness are
> generally
> well.. successful.
> And are rewarded both with recgonation and money.
> Look around, there are alot of successful and wealthy women in America
> today.
okay, well then we agree. all i am saying is that if women are more sensitized to being treated
badly (just to stick with a tangible example) i don't think that means they should just play the game
the way it has always been played. now, on the other hand it can't be 'well, we think "women" should
be treated with more respect' it has to be "employees".
>
> Are they equal? you bet they are.
> How did they achieve this?
> They did not "ram" their ideas and views down the throats of others by
> saying
> "The law says you have to treat me equal"
> They competed equally, and accepted losses as well as victories.
and pushed for fair changes where they beleived in them. just as men have done for years.
>
>
> IOW, they expected to be treated equal, and behaved as equal.
> And were accepted.
> Again, its called "Style"
hmm, yes and no. not always. i mean _anyone_ male or female who tries to change the status
quo will initially meet with a lot of resistance. this is evident around safety issues in my industry.
>
>
>
> > > Both are wrong.
> > > And i am NOT saying ALL women do this.
> > > But it is common.
> >
> > i'll accept all of that. however, either way the motivation is power with
> different pov perhaps
> > but it is power, no?
>
> Of course its power.
> And i do not think either of us said differently.
well, except that you pointed to a list of negatives as things women do and used it to
explain why you would view a female and male manager doing the same things in different ways.
>
> The 'style' in which someone uses that power makes a great leader, or a poor
> leader.
yes. i don't think that we are that far apart here. the only distinction i am trying to make is that acting
as an equal does not necessarily mean not changing things or for that matter not invoking the law where
appropriate.
>
>
>
>
>
> ~wd
>
WhiteDragon®
<is...@bibble.com> wrote in message news:gwcy8$F...@netnews.attbi.com...
> "WhiteDragon®" <serv...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<ucig7q...@corp.supernews.com>:
> > >is...@bibble.com> wrote in message news:kZMy8$H...@netnews.attbi.com...
> > <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > > they don't. in fact, it is feminism that has suggested not that
men
> > > > > and thier business change but that women become men.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > i'm not sure i understand what you are saying here.
> > >
> > > feminism by an large suggests that women can be men rather than
suggesting
> > that a woman's pov
> > > can be brought into business.
> >
> >
> > I have never known feminism to say "women can be men" sorry.
> > I have known feminism to say "women should be equal"
> > and get "equal pay for equal work.
> > I for one happen to subscribe to this thinking.
> >
> > But, if women want to be truly equal, then they must 'act' equal.
>
> define act equal.
Get a dictionary.
Look up "act"
Then look up
"equal"
I think its pretty self explanatory
>
> > And perform equal.
> > And NOT expect to be treated differently then men, but equals.
> >
> > If they want equal pay, then perform equally.
> > And NOT expect anything different.
> >
> > This entire issue to you seems to be the boss cursing.
> > I am not advocating cursing.
> > Its not a good style of managing people.
> > People know true fairness,and they will gravitate to a boss who is truly
> > fair.
>
> no, the entire issue to me is that just because it has always been that
way doesn't
> mean it _should_ always be that way i am using cursing as a tangible
example.
Well, i'm not disagreeing.
So rant if you must.
>
> look if men and women have different experiences and pov on some things
they
> bring different things to the table. a pov is not invalid because it is
more generally
> held by women. and respect is a good example of this. men often put up
with things
> because from the time they are small boys they are told to suck it up. if
they get hurt
> physically or emotionally it's be a big boy. girls are told to nurse
their pains. (i have seen
> this first hand in daycare) somewhere between the two is probably a good
place to be.
> but to suggest that if women want to be in business they have to just go
along with the
> way it has been because that is the way it has been is not reasonable.
unless you think
> there ais no room for improvements.
> >
Yep, there is the rant.
> > To address the second half of your statement.
> > "woman's pov can be brought into business" quite sucessfully IMO.
> > And the women who sucessfully bring their opinions into buisness are
> > generally
> > well.. successful.
> > And are rewarded both with recgonation and money.
> > Look around, there are alot of successful and wealthy women in America
> > today.
>
> okay, well then we agree. all i am saying is that if women are more
sensitized to being treated
> badly (just to stick with a tangible example) i don't think that means
they should just play the game
> the way it has always been played. now, on the other hand it can't be
'well, we think "women" should
> be treated with more respect' it has to be "employees".
> >
yep we do agree.
So why rant some more?
> > Are they equal? you bet they are.
> > How did they achieve this?
> > They did not "ram" their ideas and views down the throats of others by
> > saying
> > "The law says you have to treat me equal"
> > They competed equally, and accepted losses as well as victories.
>
> and pushed for fair changes where they beleived in them. just as men have
done for years.
> >
> >
> > IOW, they expected to be treated equal, and behaved as equal.
> > And were accepted.
> > Again, its called "Style"
>
> hmm, yes and no. not always. i mean _anyone_ male or female who tries to
change the status
> quo will initially meet with a lot of resistance. this is evident around
safety issues in my industry.
> >
Yes or no?
uhhh something is EITHER yes OR no.
Not Both.
> >
> >
> > > > Both are wrong.
> > > > And i am NOT saying ALL women do this.
> > > > But it is common.
> > >
> > > i'll accept all of that. however, either way the motivation is power
with
> > different pov perhaps
> > > but it is power, no?
> >
> > Of course its power.
> > And i do not think either of us said differently.
>
> well, except that you pointed to a list of negatives as things women do
and used it to
> explain why you would view a female and male manager doing the same things
in different ways.
> >
> > The 'style' in which someone uses that power makes a great leader, or a
poor
> > leader.
>
> yes. i don't think that we are that far apart here. the only distinction
i am trying to make is that acting
> as an equal does not necessarily mean not changing things or for that
matter not invoking the law where
> appropriate.
> >
We are not far apart at all.
But i am 'old school' on alot of these issues, so you are ranting to someone
who is not going to listen.
There really is no need to carry this conversation further.
~wd
is...@bibble.com
> <is...@bibble.com> wrote in message news:gwcy8$F...@netnews.attbi.com...
> > "WhiteDragon®" <serv...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> <ucig7q...@corp.supernews.com>:
> > > >is...@bibble.com> wrote in message news:kZMy8$H...@netnews.attbi.com...
> > > <snip>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > they don't. in fact, it is feminism that has suggested not that
> men
> > > > > > and thier business change but that women become men.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > i'm not sure i understand what you are saying here.
> > > >
> > > > feminism by an large suggests that women can be men rather than
> suggesting
> > > that a woman's pov
> > > > can be brought into business.
> > >
> > >
> > > I have never known feminism to say "women can be men" sorry.
> > > I have known feminism to say "women should be equal"
> > > and get "equal pay for equal work.
> > > I for one happen to subscribe to this thinking.
> > >
> > > But, if women want to be truly equal, then they must 'act' equal.
> >
> > define act equal.
>
> Get a dictionary.
> Look up "act"
> Then look up
> "equal"
>
> I think its pretty self explanatory
don't get disagreeable now. i am asking what _you_ mean not what a dictionary
means.
and if you want to go to dictionaries then i disagree with you. it suggests that men
should set the standard and women should _act_ accordingly when i think both should
set the standards.
>
> >
> > > And perform equal.
> > > And NOT expect to be treated differently then men, but equals.
> > >
> > > If they want equal pay, then perform equally.
> > > And NOT expect anything different.
> > >
> > > This entire issue to you seems to be the boss cursing.
> > > I am not advocating cursing.
> > > Its not a good style of managing people.
> > > People know true fairness,and they will gravitate to a boss who is truly
> > > fair.
> >
> > no, the entire issue to me is that just because it has always been that
> way doesn't
> > mean it _should_ always be that way i am using cursing as a tangible
> example.
>
> Well, i'm not disagreeing.
> So rant if you must.
not ranting trying to see if you agree.
>
> >
> > look if men and women have different experiences and pov on some things
> they
> > bring different things to the table. a pov is not invalid because it is
> more generally
> > held by women. and respect is a good example of this. men often put up
> with things
> > because from the time they are small boys they are told to suck it up. if
> they get hurt
> > physically or emotionally it's be a big boy. girls are told to nurse
> their pains. (i have seen
> > this first hand in daycare) somewhere between the two is probably a good
> place to be.
> > but to suggest that if women want to be in business they have to just go
> along with the
> > way it has been because that is the way it has been is not reasonable.
> unless you think
> > there ais no room for improvements.
> > >
>
> Yep, there is the rant.
not a rant at all. both sexes have sufferred imo by being pigeonholed.
>
> > > To address the second half of your statement.
> > > "woman's pov can be brought into business" quite sucessfully IMO.
> > > And the women who sucessfully bring their opinions into buisness are
> > > generally
> > > well.. successful.
> > > And are rewarded both with recgonation and money.
> > > Look around, there are alot of successful and wealthy women in America
> > > today.
> >
> > okay, well then we agree. all i am saying is that if women are more
> sensitized to being treated
> > badly (just to stick with a tangible example) i don't think that means
> they should just play the game
> > the way it has always been played. now, on the other hand it can't be
> 'well, we think "women" should
> > be treated with more respect' it has to be "employees".
> > >
>
> yep we do agree.
> So why rant some more?
alright, now you ar egetting on my nerves.
i am not 'ranting' (though i am now tempted to 'are you angry', 'no', 'are you angry', 'no',
'are you angry', 'NO!'
>
>
> > > Are they equal? you bet they are.
> > > How did they achieve this?
> > > They did not "ram" their ideas and views down the throats of others by
> > > saying
> > > "The law says you have to treat me equal"
> > > They competed equally, and accepted losses as well as victories.
> >
> > and pushed for fair changes where they beleived in them. just as men have
> done for years.
> > >
> > >
> > > IOW, they expected to be treated equal, and behaved as equal.
> > > And were accepted.
> > > Again, its called "Style"
> >
> > hmm, yes and no. not always. i mean _anyone_ male or female who tries to
> change the status
> > quo will initially meet with a lot of resistance. this is evident around
> safety issues in my industry.
> > >
>
> Yes or no?
>
> uhhh something is EITHER yes OR no.
> Not Both.
are you tired?
yes and no. my brain is tired but i have physical energy.
are you happy?
yes and no.
i am mostly happy but a bit annoyed right now.
are men and women equal?
yes and no.
they are equivalent but there are differences.
something can definately be both.
and to bring it back to the example at hand. a woman acting like an equal is not always accepted.
nor for that matter is a man.
Chive Mynde
> archiv...@yahoo.com (Chive Mynde) wrote in message news:<15b47182.02041...@posting.google.com>...
> > Michael Snyder <msn...@redhat.com> wrote in message news:<3CB7747A...@redhat.com>...
> > > Chive Mynde wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thursday, Apr 11, 2002
> > > >
> > > > Tech professionals make pitch to girls
> > > >
> > > > By Suzanne Pardington
> > > > CONTRA COSTA TIMES
> > > >
> > > > Women in technology careers get used to being the only woman in
> > > > the room.
> > >
> > > True enough.
> > >
> > > > They survive by refusing to be intimidated, despite frequent
> > > > assumptions that they are only there to take notes.
> > >
> > > Flat-out lie, and I speak from personal knowledge.
> >
> > Of course you speak from personal knowledge. After all,
> > you are confirmed and verified liar, and that fact has been
> > demonstrated time and time again.
>
> When?
...every time Michael Snyder posts, especially when the subject is one
of statistics. I've even documented Snyder's lies in the periodic
"Welcome to Feminism" post. The apples and oranges fallacy in
that post was posted by him.
-=Chive
Science is not belief, but the will to find out,