The Myth of Walking Away
Adrienne J. Davis
On 9 Nov 1997 17:49:06 -0500, johannah bradley <jbra...@umbc.edu>
wrote:
Johannah;
I'm not sure what, exactly, prompted you to read this but thank you.
I have a pretty tough skin--survival skill ya know--and still those
comments get to me. About a year ago, I posted a piece called
'Imagine' here because of The Thread. It was one of the most
difficult things I've had to write but that thread was hard to read
and *something* had to be done.
This group, at various points, has been a nicely trans-inclusive space
and in my absence I'm surprised that it's changed. It's been the
place I've offered up in far *less* trans-inclusive cyber-spaces as
this as an example of what *can* be.
As one of the women of which Johannah speaks I just want to relate one
line from Imagine to you--'there are real women behind our theories of
gender, just like us, they *are* us and just like us they are doing
their best to just make it through each day'. I'm a real woman. The
intersexed women here are real women. As real as you. If you need a
context, if it needs to be said again, I'll repost Imagine. It's
something that takes it out of the realm of theory and puts my
experience in *your* body. Would anyone here mind if I reposted it?
Johannah, thank you. Reading this brought tears to my eyes. It's
good to be home.
Adrienne
Adrienne J. Davis---caramel colored, dredloked, power-femme
ICQ# 4252793
*********************************************
We who love this way are poetry and history, action and theory
flesh and spirit. <Joan Nestle>
--
Soc.women.lesbian-and-bi is a moderated newsgroup. The moderation policy
is available at <http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~wjfraser/swlab/modpolicy.html>
and is posted weekly. Questions and concerns should be addressed to the
moderators at <swlab-...@panix.com>.
Cora Louise Schmid
In article <1.xhg~r2}|a...@panix.com>,
Adrienne J. Davis <id...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> I'm a real woman. The
>intersexed women here are real women. As real as you.
Adrienne-
As far as I am concerned, you are not only as real a woman as I, you (and
many other trans women) are more woman than I. You see, for me, dispite
having been born with two x chromosomes and a "female" body my gender has
never been crucial to my identity. I mean, I've had to deal with how
society reacts to me and with menstruating and the possiblity that I could
get pregnant, but if I had been born with my exact same mind and a male
body, I don't think it would have fundamentally changed me.
To me, the fact that your gender identity as a woman is so great that you
were willing to risk societal disapproval and physical pain and all the
other things I'm sure you've had to go through is exeedingly admirable
and indiciative of exactly how "real" of a woman you are.
cora
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
co...@leland.stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~cora/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Megan
On 9 Nov 1997, Adrienne J. Davis wrote:
> On 9 Nov 1997 17:49:06 -0500, johannah bradley <jbra...@umbc.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Johannah;
>
> [snipping reluctantly]
> As one of the women of which Johannah speaks I just want to relate one
> line from Imagine to you--'there are real women behind our theories of
> gender, just like us, they *are* us and just like us they are doing
> their best to just make it through each day'. I'm a real woman. The
> intersexed women here are real women. As real as you. If you need a
> context, if it needs to be said again, I'll repost Imagine. It's
> something that takes it out of the realm of theory and puts my
> experience in *your* body. Would anyone here mind if I reposted it?
>
Adrienne-
Not only would I not mind, I'd really appreciate it, not having
been here the first time it was posted. From what I know of your writing,
it couldn't be anything but lucid and compelling and well-written.
megan
The Breyers Traitor
je...@netcom.com (Ellen Evans), in article <1.^y&~r2...@panix.com>, dixit:
>In article <1.vme~r2&+...@panix.com>,
>[]
>>I suggest that be allowing the usage of statements such as "you are a
>>man" or any of its variants we create an inhospitable ng for any woman who
>>is not a genetic female who has been physically configured as one since
>>birth.
>"Allowing" is a tricky word. The moderators aren't Moms. The single
>best way to deal with the stupidity inherent in the "genetic male" trope
>is to respond to it, when it shows up. Respond to it using all the
>resources that the group has at its command. Which are formidable.
I read Johannah as urging us, we the posters, to respond, rather than
the moderators to moderate. Point well taken, as I've a tendency to
ignore idiocy like that rather than repeat it. Flamethrower at the
ready, excelsior!
--
____
Piglet \bi/ http://piglet.org/momentum
pig...@piglet.org \/ Now launching.... Momentum! (for metrical poetry)
Ellen Evans
In article <1.vme~r2&+...@panix.com>,
[]
>I suggest that be allowing the usage of statements such as "you are a
>man" or any of its variants we create an inhospitable ng for any woman who
>is not a genetic female who has been physically configured as one since
>birth.
"Allowing" is a tricky word. The moderators aren't Moms. The single
best way to deal with the stupidity inherent in the "genetic male" trope
is to respond to it, when it shows up. Respond to it using all the
resources that the group has at its command. Which are formidable.
Which is what I see happening.
--
Ellen Evans 17 Across: The "her" of "Leave Her to Heaven"
je...@netcom.com New York Times, 7/14/96
Kira D. Triea
R. A. Lorentz wrote:
+---
| id...@pacbell.net (Adrienne J. Davis) wrote:
|
| > I'm a real woman. The
| >intersexed women here are real women. As real as you. If you need a
| >context, if it needs to be said again, I'll repost Imagine. It's
| >something that takes it out of the realm of theory and puts my
| >experience in *your* body. Would anyone here mind if I reposted it?
|
| Please repost.
|
| -theROSE
+---
Me too.
Kiira
Kira D. Triea
Johannah Bradley writes:
+---
|I am very aware that USEnet requires a tough skin. I am also aware of
|how letting statements enter the discourse with only a bit of
|challenging alters this picture and moves the issue from beyond tough
|skin to the quasi-acceptance of what can be very phobic
|statements. That these statements are not dealt with more vigorously
|is of concern to me.
+---
I greatly appreciate your analysis Jo... but I am not quite so worried.
+---
|I suggest that be allowing the usage of statements such as "you are a
|man" or any of its variants we create an inhospitable ng for any woman
|who is not a genetic female who has been physically configured as one
|since birth.
+---
I have been sick at home for a few days. So I've been posting/surfing
a bit more than I usually have time for. So I visited the the swlab
FAQ and homepage. Wow! I was *very* pleased to see that not only were
some some HPs from "non-genetic women" included (notably Adrienne's and
Diana Wilson's)... but the ISNA/Intersex Voices sites were there too.
When I have time for a personal homepage... about my kitty cats and
such, (of course) hope it could also be linked there. :-)
+---
|Correlation is the weakest of all evidence. Yet, the number of
|non-genetic women posting here has dropped off considerably. I miss
|many of the women I had grown to appreciate and care about. I admit
|that their absence may just be an unhappy twist of fate. But my gut
|says differently.
+---
I sure hope not. I hope that no sister has been made to feel unwelcome
here... I haven't. As a matter of fact, I was very encouraged by the
June/July discussion about intersex that occurred because of VE's
silly insensitive statements... though I fully realize that folks who
are alligned along different metanymic axes in the "lesbian universe"
may have felt quite differently... I viewed it as a valuable opportunity
for education. This occurred because you and other swlab'ers called her
number quite vigorously. That is what makes me continue to want
to post here.
+---
|Phrase such as "you are a man" (or its variants) have no argumentative
|value -- their sole purpose is to wound, put-down and silence. Whilst
|they may be easy for those of us who are genetic women to shrug off, I
|am not so sure that this is the case for non-genetic women. By
|accepting the use of such phrases we are involved in in forcing
|non-genetic women to a discourse which has the intent of causing pain
|and undermining identity.
+---
I am not at all sure that it may be easier for XX people to shrug
off... I am an XX genotype for instance and I do not like being
called a "male" because of the years 2-13. People are insecure about
gender and identity... even possessing the cultural legitimizers of
"sex" (real genitals) doesn't write it in stone after all. I also feel
that as a vector for invalidation and denigration, it simply has no
place here. Take it from me folks... genotype has *nothing* to do
(other than from a statistical perspective) to do with "sex". If you
don't believe me then look at x
http://www.qis.net/~triea/kira.html and
http://www.qis.net/~triea/diane.html
and don't read the text. Get back to me about who is XX and who is XY.
So in this context, slurs based on genotype are really just cultural
extrapolations of "gender apporopriate" behavior
expectations ie. Beffie... get off that Yamaha. (loved your HP).
I am sure that this bugs Jo as much as Adrienne or myself (just
snarfing three (rather) *different* permutations of "woman" here).
But I believe that folks who have been "impinged upon" because of their
non-standard path re: sex/gender/sexuality need to be treated with
understanding and respect when they have presented here with honesty,
openness, introspection and in the spirit of sharing. This includes
a *lot* of people here, not just TS women or the two IS women who have
posted.
I thank Johannah (and others) for raising these issues... to have them
raised thusly, seems to be part of the process of
establishing a place where the truth *can* be found. Even on the
Internet! :-)
Kiira
BTW - I changed the spelling of my first name to Kiira because recently
I found out some very nice things about the first two years I
spent in Finland
Gwendolyn Alden Dean
On 11 Nov 1997, jbenny wrote:
> As do I. While I know that you felt injured by her, Cris contributed many
> intelligent and thought-provoking posts here, and I miss her. I recall
> that she was not surgically altered, but clearly stated that she
> identified more as a woman then as a male. Toxic Twins aside, I do wish
> she would return, but probably would not do so without hearing from you
> or your Twin, Johannah. In light of this wonderful post, perhaps you may
> give it a thought or two.
I remember Cris. I have no idea what point you're making. I abhor the
bigotry that surfaces here every so often towards TG and TS women but I
don't know that that had anything to do with animosity toward Cris.
Unlike our beloved TS comrades, who can understand that a male childhood
develops some aspects of male privilege, and our beloved bi comrades, who
can understand that a bi woman in a MOTOS relationship receives het
privilege, Cris understood nothing about any social dynamic of domination
and oppression. That's why she got so much grief.
Gwendolyn