Help -
bianca
I am a 31 year old m-f ts. I need a bit of help/advice/support.
My whole life I have known I should have been born female. I suffer
through every minute of every day in this horrid male body.
Although knowing this my whole life, I didn't transition because the
usual pressures and shame. I look at myself today with great sadness I
didn't have the courage to transition early in life. As time goes by
it just gets worse and worse. I am now married and have a 3 year old
son (I am pretty asexual and not attracted to any sex - so this was
another step to show the world I wasn't ts). I have gone through
phases of buying clothes - then throwing them out. Before long I would
buy again just to make me feel a bit female - never worked.
I have been in therapy for 6 months. My therapist sais I am defintely
ts (REALLY!!!!) and a good candidate to transition. But he also sais
that I cannot as too many innocent people would get hurt in the
process. He may be right. However, the pain and inability to function
during daily tasks is an increbible burden to carry. I have also not
ever met another m-f ts (at least knowingly) and have no one who I can
just talk to as myself. I need to express the real me and really don't
know what to do.
If anyone would like to chat, my email is bianca...@yahoo.com
Look forward to hearing from understanding friends.
Hugs,
Bianca
Helen Smith
<bianca...@yahoo.com> writes
Hello Bianca :)
Just my two cents worth but fyi...
Your therapist can't really say if you are or are not a ts, or, if you
are or are not a good candidate to transition.
This is only something _you_ may define.
Also, the fact you are presently married and with a 3 year old son, is
no indication that you may not be ts. It's just circumstantial.
Your concerns over your gender need not be in the interest of the world
at large but it may be a consideration to include your wife in the
matter... that's if, up to now it's been a secret. :>
What ever you do and whatever happens, it would be good to have her
support and understanding.
btw - What's your nationality and what country do you live in?
--
Helen
Amanda Angelika
>
> Your therapist can't really say if you are or are not a ts, or, if you
> are or are not a good candidate to transition.
> This is only something _you_ may define.
Strange therapist I thought. I mean firstly they don't usually diagnose one
as Transsexual, as you say it tends to be self diagnosing, and secondly even
properly trained counsellors don't usually make moral and ethical judgements
as to what you should do. I find this story a little suspect, unless she's
dealing with a "Christian Counsellor" who tend to be untrained, so any
advice or diagnosis they may give is extremely suspect in any case, and
liable to do more harm than good. Generally Therapists don't give "moral"
advice, they are there to listen. IMO the behaviour of this particular
therapist seems unprofessional .
--
Amanda
---
Outgoing mail is certified Free of all known Germs and Viruses :)
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Julia
>>I have been in therapy for 6 months. My therapist sais I am defintely
>>ts (REALLY!!!!) and a good candidate to transition.
This really doesn't sound like therapist language to me. For a start,
it isn't for him to know, it's for you to know and at the right time
for you. That said, he may help you achieve your discoveries but it's
not his place to direct you.
Could you tell us how he said this and perhaps how you felt about it.
After all, it's not the therapist we're interested in, it's you.
>>But he also said that I cannot as too many innocent people
>>would get hurt in the process.
Again, that doesn't sound like responsible therapist language.
His interest is his client, not third parties. You went there to get
rid of baggage, not to have it heaped upon you. I think it would be
good if you could talk about this in more detail - for example, might
he have said it as a question as in "do you think.....". That could
be a way of getting the issues out on the table where they can be
dealt with.
>>I need to express the real me and really don't know what to do.
Well you've made a good start - just keep talking. The more you
express yourself, the more likely it is that you will begin to find
how some of the pieces of the jigsaw fit together.
I agree with Helen, it would be good to know just a little of your
location, not to pry but perhaps to tailor our observations. For
example, she and I both come from the UK so things we say may be less
appropriate should you come from, say, the US.
Julia
Diane Arons
> This will be my only message to you on this topic, Bianca... the
> firestorm of people telling you to ignore me and do things there way will shortly follow.
Indeed....
Everything you need to know about the man who calls himself "laura"
blake can be found in a FAQ here:
The man is a troll, sociopath and pathological liar. He is a racist,
homophobe (calls black people 'niggers' and gay peple 'fags') and
*extreme* mysogynist.
His entire purpose here is to give misleading advice to transgendered
people. You will undoubtedkly shortly receive an email from him
saying how he is the victim of a great conspiricy against him and his
advice.
Elaine, myself, Sandra Helen and a few others here are post-ops and
knowledgable of TS and TG issues.
Blake is a 54 year old man named Lyle who is NOT TG but now calls
himself an "androgyne". He lives off Canadian welfare for what he
claims is a 'back condition' but in truth is a psych disibility. He
has not held a job (by his own admission- see the the FAQ) since '86
and is a drug addict and struggles with alcohloism and suicidal
impulses. Again, by his own admission, both his ex-wife and 24 year
old daughter refuse to have anyhing to do with him.
The obvious question to ask would be "If this guy has such good advice
then why is his life so effed up?" :)
He has been on the newsgroups spewing extremely bad advice (which I
can only believe intentional) for over 10 years (no job = lots of
usenet time). Be careful when talking with people on Usenet - Lyle is
by no means the only one like this.
Look at the faq - read his own words (which he denies that he said)
and decide for yourself.
Think criticaly.
Question authority.
Diane
Diane Arons
bianca
Sorry. Rude of me not to say where I am from.
I am South African, living in Johannesburg. I recently spent 6 years
in Europe. Great experience but good be back.
My wife has no idea. Further I am scared to leave decisions up to me
because of my strong drive to be myself.
Thanks for the reply. Great to talk to someone who understands.
Bianca
Sandra
No therapist can make the determination that you are TS, only you can do
that. The therapist's job is to guide you, not push or dictate. You
control the process.
Which is the greater hurt to those you love and who love you? To be
miserable and have everyone around you feel that? To be whole and alive
and complete and happy and have everyone around you feel that?
You cannot live your life through others and others cannot live their
lives through you.
Pain is a stimulus to tell you that something is wrong. Look for the
cause and correct the situation causing it.
We can't live in or change the past -- it's gone. We can't live in or
change the future -- we alter our future, moment by moment, with every
act and choice we make. We can only live in the NOW, the present, this
very moment. Stay focused in the NOW and make the best choices you can at
the time.
Regret and fear-of-the-future are twin demons who steal our happiness in
the present.
Hugs,
Sandra
bianca...@yahoo.com (bianca) wrote in
news:becd40d7.04081...@posting.google.com:
Leslie F. Terrell
"bianca" <bianca...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:becd40d7.04081...@posting.google.com...
Let me first say that I'm a straight person who was born female and is
comfortable that way, so I don't actually know what you're going through.
I'm here in the first place because my best girlfriend--whose crazy lesbian
sex stories I had just gotten completley accustomed to---recently informed
me that she is emotionally a straight man, i.e., a female to male
transexual, and Chris is going through exactly what you are with the
opposite gender. Being his best friend and quasi spiritual advisor from
high school up, so am I.
I will let you know when I realised exactly what this entailed, I got drunk
and posted to this newsgroup to deal with it.
I will also let you know that I'm having one heck of a time remembering to
use male pronouns in reference to, once again, my former best girlfriend
turned best guyfriend.
I will also let you know that I find it very weird that inherited his
"girly" items from his room, including an antique blanket that is just to
beautiful for me to imagaine anyone wanting to get rid of. (I'm a historian
in training, dear, forgive my pecularities.)
But I'm going to go the hospital when it actually happens, and hang around
for the recoverly period. And I'm helping plan his "coming out party" 'that
he's holding to explain all this to his supportive but bewildered friends.
And we're going shopping next weekend for manly things...so he won't come
home with something a damn neanderthal would wear.
I've also found out since all this started that I actually knew casually the
wife of a f-t-m transexual. They're staying together. They have two kids,
and one on the way. They're very young. So are you. Give your wife a
chance. I don't know how her marriage turned out, but I also know of
another m-t-f person in oklahoma city who writes the spirituality collumn
for our local gay newspaper. She's a deacon in the Episcopal Church, and a
cop. The diocese and the police department were very kind but her parish
wasn't. Her name is Paula Sophia, and if you want it, I can give you her
public email address.
Good luck, and God be with you.
Leslie
Jennifer Usher
"L D Blake" <n...@any.adr> wrote in message
news:lsb4i0l9qco8pb70f...@4ax.com...
>
> >I am a 31 year old m-f ts. I need a bit of help/advice/support.
>
a
> firestorm of replies from a number of people who will be far more
interested
> in shutting me up than helping you... so get ready for that. I will do
the
> one thing these people won't do... I will tell you the truth.
Lyle Blake, this person's real name, wouldn't know the truth if it walked up
and kissed him. I would strongly suggest you ignore him.
--
Jennifer Usher
Jennifer Usher
> I have been in therapy for 6 months. My therapist sais I am defintely
> ts (REALLY!!!!) and a good candidate to transition. But he also sais
> that I cannot as too many innocent people would get hurt in the
> process. He may be right. However, the pain and inability to function
> during daily tasks is an increbible burden to carry. I have also not
> ever met another m-f ts (at least knowingly) and have no one who I can
> just talk to as myself. I need to express the real me and really don't
> know what to do.
Simply put, your therapist needs to think things through more. You are far
more likely to hurt your loved ones by being a miserable, frustrated person
who is being denied what you need.
--
Jennifer Usher
Burse
"Diane Arons" <diane...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f9de03e3.04081...@posting.google.com...
> Think criticaly.
> Question authority.
>
> Diane
I think Bianca already did that, because you didn't get a response from your
vitriolic hate rant.
You didn't really have to start trouble again did you Diane ? everybody
knows your at least 50% of the problem if not more.
bianca
Firstly I am touched by your responses.
When I first saw thw the sight I saw some posting with disgusting
language and even worse advice. I also saw enough good talk and advice
to realize this is a fraud.
My therapist is a doctor of psychiatry specializing in sexuality. He
claims to have treated many transsexuals, but in fairness I have been
asking him for a long time for an intro to someone facing similar
challenges (and more experienced) and support groups. Despite his
promises I have yet to receive any of this. Our sessions started off
with me talking, and his staement that "you are definitely ts" may
have been a confirmation of my story. One very strange thing he asked
is if I would like "breasts and a vagina" - I replied every woman
does! The part about my family was definitely no confirmation - it was
an outright statement that I can't transition because of all the
innocent people who would get hurt. I also suggested that I maybe try
a course of low dosage HRT, but he said no as the physical changes
could not be hidden after a very short period and it would destroy
these people.
There must be plenty of ts's in Johannesburg, but I have no idea how
to contact them or join a support group, or even how to compare
therapists.
I am on a journey that I dont where it will end. You have been through
similar journeys and your experience is invaluable - already (I have a
session on Thursday). Transitioning is a journey and living as we were
always meant to be is an ongoing challenge, but living as a man is a
much worse option.
I am also relatively successful in my career. I am a lawyer by
profession (sorry - I seem to have made a few wrong decisions), now I
am in management consulting to Government and large companies.
Transitioining on the job will be difficult due the prejudice we face,
but I am quite happy to cross that bridge later.
Hugs,
Bianca
Nadz
Here are some T support listings I've found. Not a whole lot, but
something at least. You can start by writing and emailing. Be
cautious and ask around until you are sure you've found a reliable
resource. I personally, went to a gender clinic, and twice monthly
meetings of a TS peer support group, that were both an hour away.
There should be gender therapists listed at your local hospitals. If
you do some asking around, you may latch onto a good recommendation or
two. The link and addresses may be a good way of making an initial
contact, that is, if they are still in business. They should be at
least able to lead you in the right direction if they are. :)
Good luck, and hang in there. Take it slow, try to be patient with
family and friends. There is a lot to learn, but take one step at a
time, you have your whole life ahead of you. Cherish every moment
whether good or bad...it is all part of the journey.
Jh
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.q.co.za/directory/sadc.htm
The Phoenix Society Helpline
Box 1332
Springs 1560
Republic Of South Africa
Support group.
Satru
c/o PO Box 87283 Houghton 2041
Johannesburg
Republic of South Africa
Support group.
Willow Arune
I practised law for 17 year up here in Canada. We really should have
some fun exchanges...
Hugs,
Willow
Valerie
Life itself is a transition. When you realized that continuing on as you
were was not an option for you, you chose a path that will cause a lot of
anxiety in your life and in the lives of others around you. But just
because it's a bit more misunderstood, doesn't mean that it isn't right and
true and proper for you. The process of creation, to create a new life for
yourself, is also a process of destruction -- the destruction of your old
life. That is the biggest cause of fear in those around you. If someone
really cares about you, they will try to accept you for who you are and try
not to make you into something you are not. Those who refuse to accept you
and your needs will cause you the greatest pain. Just remember that no
thing worth having in this life is pain free. Be careful of your advisors.
Listen to your own heart. There is a lot of deception, and prejudice, and
wrong thinking out there and you only have your faith and your own sense of
direction to guide you. Build yourself a support group of people who have
been where you're going, people who care about you, and people who can see
beyond the superficial to the you inside. Always, always, always ask, when
you receive advice, what the person's motive and background might be.
Always be wary of the black/white, good/bad pronouncements of those who are
ignorant and misinformed. You know already in your heart what is right for
you. Hold that vision, do the best you can in the NOW and try not to fear
for the future or regret the past. Each day we make our futures anew by the
actions we take today. Remember that. And remember this:
http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/desiderata.html
Hugs,
Valerie
bianca...@yahoo.com (bianca) wrote in news:becd40d7.0408171819.819f152
@posting.google.com:
Helen Smith
<bianca...@yahoo.com> writes
>Hi All
>
>Firstly I am touched by your responses.
>
>When I first saw thw the sight I saw some posting with disgusting
>language and even worse advice. I also saw enough good talk and advice
>to realize this is a fraud.
>
nutters, idiots, crazy diamonds and people with all sorts of issues that
need dealing with... :/
But the funny thing is, if you learn to brush these aside, you also find
many a nugget of wisdom in this newsgroup.
>My therapist is a doctor of psychiatry specializing in sexuality. He
>claims to have treated many transsexuals, but in fairness I have been
>asking him for a long time for an intro to someone facing similar
>challenges (and more experienced) and support groups. Despite his
>promises I have yet to receive any of this. Our sessions started off
>with me talking, and his staement that "you are definitely ts" may
>have been a confirmation of my story. One very strange thing he asked
>is if I would like "breasts and a vagina" - I replied every woman
>does! The part about my family was definitely no confirmation - it was
>an outright statement that I can't transition because of all the
>innocent people who would get hurt. I also suggested that I maybe try
>a course of low dosage HRT, but he said no as the physical changes
>could not be hidden after a very short period and it would destroy
>these people.
>
I feel I should respectfully remind you that - you're married so any
decision on your part to commence HRT is something that your wife really
ought to be aware of.
It's a very sticky situation that you are in but if you _really_ do feel
ts, the hurting won't go away or get better, it will get worse.
I just feel the best way forward for you is to be as strait as you
possible can with your wife, hopefully she will come around to allie to
your need. You'll need her as a best friend.
Taking HRT in secret is likely to cause problems because it will affect
your ability to have sex <if you have any, that is:> and possibly your
fertility, and will cause mood swings and psychological changes, but at
your age the physical changes won't look very different for six months
at least.
>There must be plenty of ts's in Johannesburg, but I have no idea how
>to contact them or join a support group, or even how to compare
>therapists.
>
Have you tried the personal adds in your local newspaper. Sometimes a
local Trans' support group will advertise.
That way you could meet someone able to council with you and discuss
your particular needs. Many councillors who help out in these support
groups are ts.
>I am on a journey that I dont where it will end. You have been through
>similar journeys and your experience is invaluable - already (I have a
>session on Thursday). Transitioning is a journey and living as we were
>always meant to be is an ongoing challenge, but living as a man is a
>much worse option.
>
Yes, it's a journey of self exploration, more interesting to you than
places you've been in the world :)
>I am also relatively successful in my career. I am a lawyer by
>profession (sorry - I seem to have made a few wrong decisions), now I
>am in management consulting to Government and large companies.
>Transitioining on the job will be difficult due the prejudice we face,
>but I am quite happy to cross that bridge later.
>
>Hugs,
>Bianca
I don't know if there is a good social environment in which a ts can
transition. Look on the bright side - at least as a professional you're
less likely to have the money problems that so many ts's have :>
Remember that you'll not be the first ts to exist and you won't be the
last either. The people who you have to interact with in your life are
all individuals and you could be supprised by many actually supporting
your eventual action with transitioning.
Also many people nowadays simple aren't fazed by it anymore.
It's sometime you can do only if and when _you_ feel ready.
I wish you well Bianca.
Oh, and {{Hugs}} to you too :)
--
Helen
DoomsdayDriver
>
> Indeed....
> Everything you need to know about... ..."laura"
> blake can be found...
<note: the above quote has been edited for content>
Appearing to offer up support while seeking support for your
psycho little jihad, eh? Is that 2 birds with 1 stone or
does prospecting for potential victims fit in making it 3 then?
Rhetorical questions, you needn't answer.
:)
dd
--
"Real Life: It's working as coded..."
Julia
>Further I am scared to leave decisions up to me
>because of my strong drive to be myself.
I wonder if this desire to get someone else to affirm your status
contributed to you feeling so strongly in your earlier post that the
therapist was guiding you?
The best known psychiatrist specializing in TS matters in my country
is reputed to have said that diagnosing transsexuality is almost
impossible but confirming it is relatively straight-forward. His
approach suggests that even if he didn't say it, it's the sort of
thing he could have said. All of which is a roundabout way of
suggesting "if you won't make the decision then how can you ask anyone
else to do it for you". It's your life made up of your choices and
your responsibilities. Perhaps it's just a bit too soon to know at
the moment and a bit more time for reflection will make things
clearer.
Taking your observation about the desire to be yourself to be a
reference to an overwhelming desire to "come out", may I suggest that
this needs to be worked through. I remember saying to a girl a year
or two back who felt similarly "ok, so why don't you come out
tomorrow" and suddenly there were a flood of reasons, mostly very good
and practical ones and so we agreed that by not coming out in an
unplanned way, she was actually looking after herself. Over the
succeeding year, she worked out what she needed to do, planned how to
do it, started the process and eventually transitioned - it cost her
marriage but she is now moving forward.
In your own case, for example, transitioning without some practice and
without starting the process of dealing with your facial hair could
make life very difficult. Perhaps thinking about the very practical
details of the procedure and the timing might help and while you're
doing that, your own feelings may become clearer.
It's not anyone's fault that they they're TS but what they do about it
is their responsibility.
Julia
Julia
>... "you are definitely ts" may have been a confirmation of my story.
Quite possibly - it have been a way for him to say "and it's ok to be
TS" so that you have the room to deal with any feelings you may have
about the situation.
>The part about my family was definitely no confirmation - it was
>an outright statement that I can't transition because of all the
>innocent people who would get hurt.
Firstly, in addition to all the innocent people that seem to hang
round your neck, there is also another innocent person in all this who
mustn't be forgotten and that is you. If you are TS then why should
you be denied the opportunity to express yourself.
This is an area where there are so many ways of dealing with it. Most
of us will have been in denial for some or all of our lives - that is
to say we are transsexual but bury the feelings so deep that we don't
acknowledge them to be true. I have the rugby scars as a
demonstration of my own denial! So, it was true for me and I think
it's true for quite a lot of TS folk.
The trouble is that eventually the genie pops out of the bottle and it
says "I refuse to be ignored any longer" (I think of it almost like a
child stamping its foot and saying "shan't"). In my own case it would
not be ignored and I went through the process of change. I have heard
that some people are able to go back into denial but I've no direct
experience to fall back on - my instinct is that such people are
generally very unhappy but that needn't mean you would be.
>I also suggested that I maybe try a course of low dosage HRT
Walking on egg-shells at this point ..........
Some people, me included, believe that HRT can be used as a diagnostic
tool. You take them for a while - let's say 3 months - and over that
period you find out whether they suit you - it's just inner knowledge
that comes to you which is almost impossible to explain. Part of that
process is a decline in your male sex drive which adds to the
understanding. Suppose you are TS - then the hormones offer a sense
of well-being that I think of as "coming home". Suppose you are not
TS - then the reduction in your male sex drive is unwelcome, even
unacceptable, and you simply choose to stop taking them. It goes a
long way to confirming your status.
It is possible that you might experience sufficient breast growth in
that time that questions could be asked - I did, except that by that
time I was alone and had no one to whom I might feel answerable.
The trouble with trying HRT is quite simple. If it's right for you
then you are "hooked" so it's a very dangerous experiment. Of course
if it's not right for you then it could be seen as reassuring in that
you've got to find some other explanation for your feelings.
We all have our own sense of right and wrong but I would not have
started hormones without having told my partner and I thought Helen
wrote very sagely on this point. A lot of people take a more
self-centred view.
>he said no as the physical changes could not be hidden after a
>very short period
This is true for some of us but definitely not true for others! I
know a girl who, much to her chagrin, could still pass as a bloke when
topless on a beach after taking HRT for about 4 years whereas mine
were noticeable within 2 months under a T shirt.
But that really is not the point - you take them at your peril. If
you are TS then you have to be prepared and willing to take the social
consequences - I think it's true to say that while we love the
feelings of self-knowledge and identity, it's also true to say that
very few of us actually embrace the sheer grinding hassle of going
through the process.
>and it would destroy these people.
I'm not normally so directive but that is rubbish.
Suppose for a moment that you are TS, it's you that it's happening to
and it's you that has to face the world. All the others have only to
make their choices about how they choose to deal with you.
My daughter took about 2 years to come to terms with it, my son seems
to have taken about 3. My ex bought me flowers for my birthday a
couple of weeks ago after nearly 5 years of separation. Mostly it's
about how you deal with it and the values that those close to you have
grown up with. If they've been brought up to think of, for example,
disability as a weakness or a sin, then maybe they will be feel a
sense of disgust but quite honestly that says more about them than it
does about you.
>There must be plenty of ts's in Johannesburg, but I have no idea how
>to contact them
I'd guess there are a few. In my country there are help lines for
gays - they're known as Gay Switchboard - and while they are not to be
confused with TS folk, they may have a TS contact number - it's a
simple case of minorities being mutually supportive.
No promises, but I think there may be an organization called SATRU in
Jo'burg and another called The Phoenix Society in Springs - you could
look for both or either on the Web.
>living as we were always meant to be is an ongoing challenge, but living
>as a man is a much worse option.
Ultimately it is that realization that drives us to do what we do.
>Transitioining on the job will be difficult due the prejudice we face,
>but I am quite happy to cross that bridge later.
One step at a time.
Julia
Jennifer Usher
"Willow Arune" <pang...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:9HAUc.135039$J06.107573@pd7tw2no...
> Hi Bianca,
>
> I practised law for 17 year up here in Canada. We really should have
> some fun exchanges...
Not if she has a shred of intelligence Mr. Willow.
bianca
I have a meeting with my therapist later today, and I certainly have
some more insight into my issues. Thanks.
On the subject of starting a low dosage "trial course" of hormones for
a couple of months, I think it is something I would love to feel. I
have heard that the emotional effects can be significant, but in
addition my physical response may vary greatly. At 31, I am not young,
so my response could my physical response in this period may be
possible to disguise. However, the other factor of genetics is both
positive and dangerous. All close gg relatives of mine have large
breasts (DD) and while this is good, for a trial period of hormones
the signs could potentially become significant (realizing for me I
will still be lucky to have b cups in the end, the initial reaction
may be quick). I am also nervous because I desperately want to know
how I would feel, and I have known of my gender for my whole life, so
the urge to continue without rational thought is a danger. I wish I
had the answers, but just talking does provide me with a degree of
clarity.
I will also follow up on the support groups in Johannesburg.
Tnx,
Bianca
ju...@nomail.com (Julia) wrote in message news:<41237741...@news.ision.net.uk>...
Julia
>On the subject of starting a low dosage "trial course" of hormones for
>a couple of months, I think it is something I would love to feel.
If they work then it answers one question but it does also pose a heap
of others that can't be ducked.
>At 31, I am not young, so my response could my physical response
>in this period may be possible to disguise.
May I tell you a little story ..... a while ago on another part of
Usenet, someone said something similar to "of course, I can't pass as
I'm 6' tall" only they said it in a rather more roundabout way. I
sympathized with them and then admitted that I was nearer 6' 2" than
6' 1" and habitually wore 3" heels and yet live a stealth existence.
In your case, may I again sympathize and say that I was only about 58
when I started on hormones ...... I'm sure you see the parallel. At
the beginning we put all sorts of barriers in the way as in "I can't
because...." or "If only ....". It's a natural self-protection
mechanism and achieves two things - we think things through a bit more
and we take that little bit longer to be certain of what we're doing
and, all in all, it's no bad thing to be just a little circumspect in
the face of such a crucial change to our lives.
Breast growth is not related to age, nor yet to the dosage you take.
It is how your body responds to the stimulation of the oestrogen and
the best guide is your mother or your sister. You are likely to
finish up one cup size smaller than them. So, not surprisingly, I
finished up with a B cup (still growing, just) and am delighted as I
had no expectation of any growth at all at my great age! Had my
partner and I not split by then, I would not have been able to hide
what was going on after the first 6 weeks. Actually, because I chose
to use the patch, I wouldn't have been able to hide it for a day but
that's another story.
>All close gg relatives of mine have large breasts (DD)
I think you should start from the expectation of it being noticeable
within a few weeks and having serious issues to deal with very
quickly. I had no trouble hiding B cup breasts while still working as
a male but any larger would, I think, have been difficult.
>I am also nervous because I desperately want to know how I would feel
Shortly after I started on hormones, but looking back to where you are
now, I wrote "I wanted to try this approach (diagnostic hormones) but
I wanted to know for myself - I didn't care whether someone else
thought I was or wasn't. I needed to know for me. At the same time,
I didn't want to take this step. Inside, I knew that I was TS, my
first taste of hormones would be right and I'd be irrevocably
committed to a path which I still didn't want to tread - as I said
earlier, who on earth would want to be TS?"
I wonder if that strikes any sort of chord?
>but just talking does provide me with a degree of clarity.
I'm glad - just keep doing it.
>I will also follow up on the support groups in Johannesburg.
Good. It's very old information so I'm not wildly optimistic but at
least you know you are not the only one.
I think you might follow up on the local social and political
attitudes - they vary enormously from country to country and the
general attitude in SA is not known to me. In my country there is an
organization called "The Gender Trust" that may be found on the web
and they may well have links to a similar organization in SA that
might be a starting point for your research.
Julia
bianca
It is amazing just how much of a chord you have struck with me. I know
once I feel the changes that hormones induce, I wont want to stop -
and probably won't be able to either. But the idea of feeling
something ............
Hugs,
Bianca
ju...@nomail.com (Julia) wrote in message news:<41248284...@news.ision.net.uk>...
Willow Arune
From the musky odour of men to the tinny odour of women. After some time,
about one month, you see your face for the first time in a mirror - the
rounding has happened. Along the way, your skin softens, your emotions go
up and down like a yo-yo, and you may start to feel breast buds developing.
Libido slowly goes down, as a rule. Sometimes that happens quickly.
After one month, you retain fluid - and that can temporarily effect
eyesight. That passes. Body hair starts to fade, and disappear. Coarse
hair becomes fine. Public hair starts to develop a new pattern. Balding is
arrested and indeed, might start to regrowth after years I am told. Nothing
happens with the voice - you have to train that.
Medical assistance is required. Hormones and blockers can change
electrolyte levels in the blood, the potassium and sodium, and other issues
can arise. Monthly testing is required.
Now, what we want to happen is for facial hair to slow and stop, feet, hands
and other bones to shrink, facial structure to change with no eye ridge, a
different nose and chin, and perhaps a lowering of the scalp. None of that
happens. (Well, Jenny and Diane might say it does, but you can safely
ignore those).
Fat starts to get redeposition on the body, from midsection to hips.
You may experience a moos shift or two, especially after one month.
Hugs,'
Willow
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Nadz
>I am also nervous because I desperately want to know
> how I would feel, ........
I apologize for my email addy. It was meant as a joke, but I kept it
as a convenience. :)
Bianca, how you will feel is strictly up to you. No matter the effect
of living a woman's life and being on hormones, the only person who
will be able to predict your results is "you".
> I will also follow up on the support groups in Johannesburg.
You are welcome. Good luck.
j
Helen Smith
>
>It is amazing just how much of a chord you have struck with me. I know
>once I feel the changes that hormones induce, I wont want to stop -
>and probably won't be able to either. But the idea of feeling
>something ............
>
You'll feel something okay! :)
Just to add to the advise of Julia :> HRT is not always an easy science
to understand or predict. Their are many ways to induce oestrogen into
the body, patch, injection, tablet and many different types of synthetic
hormone available.
So take good _professional_ medical direction with this undertaking!
The effects of hormone changes can vary depending upon which product and
what dosage you have.
It may take some time, practise and consultation with your Doctor to get
this right.
A common effect on m2f hormone use is lowering of libido and mood
swings... Some days you're giggly and bouncing off the walls and over
days you're feeling very crap indeed. And I mean _really_ crap... but
this is transient, so it will go away.
( so when you do get a real downer, you just tell yourself ,"it passes",
because it does :)
Other common changes are of course - feminisation :D
But this can often look just like weight gain - even if you're not
actually gaining weight.
There is a risk of Deep Vain Thrombosis but this risk can be lessened by
keeping yourself healthy... do a bit of exercise, eat a good diet and
don't smoke. :>
Helen
Julia
>It is amazing just how much of a chord you have struck with me.
Thank you. If we've done anything at all, it's no more than to give
you the opportunity to give voice to your own feelings. Of course in
some ways I can say "how nice to be of use" but in other ways I can
almost say "sorry" except that as I said earlier "what you do about it
is your responsibility" and it is.
>I know once I feel the changes that hormones induce, I wont want
>to stop - and probably won't be able to either.
This is the horns of the dilemma. If I could be sure the hormones
were NOT for you then I'd say "go ahead" in the knowledge that you'd
find you weren't TS and that you'd have something else to deal with
which would almost certainly be less difficult to cope with. The
trouble is that I'm not clairvoyant and it's also clear that you might
find things running away with you because once you start, then
stopping is extremely difficult if they are right for you.
I'm not good on advice because each of us is different and we find our
own individual path through the mire (shades of The Divine Comedy).
However, what comes across to me is that you've only recently released
these feelings and allowed them space and now they are overwhelming
you.
What I would like to suggest is the equivalent of a bucket of cold
water over a couple of dogs. Stop, sit, think, discuss what is
involved in all this before taking any irrevocable steps. For
example, think through the issue that Helen and I have spoken of,
namely discussing it with your wife. You can run through that with us
as much as you like (well, it's not for me to allocate Helen's time
but you get the idea) and then start to consider "if I pop that first
pill or patch, am I going to do it legitimately through a
psychiatrist, be monitored by my GP and with my wife's knowledge"
(which needn't be consent of course) or what the hell am I going to
do. In other words, instead of just acknowledging and giving in to
the depth of your feelings, how are you thinking of approaching it?
There is one other possibility I'd like you to consider - it could all
be fantasy. I'm not saying this to you specifically, I'd say it in an
impersonal way to almost any putative TS. If you could set aside the
depth of your own feelings and convictions for a moment, can you see
that being TS is a glorious excuse for fouling up one's life - "it's
not my fault that everything's a mess" ..... a sort of Gee, Officer
Krupke except that you're too young to know West Side Story but the
sentiment of that song explains what I'm trying to convey. It's that
sort of scenario that one really does have to guard against. I think
I know one person who falls into that category and if being a real TS
is bad then being out of this particular drawer is even worse. Hence
a few deep breaths and a bucket of cold water before you set in train
something that will in a very real sense take over your entire life
until you've come out the other side.
Just about the time I was born, one of my country's politicians said
of a particular event "this is not the end, it is not even the
beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, be the end of the beginning"
and that's a bit how the TS journey works out. You think that the
knowledge you may now have is everything but it isn't - there are
years of unremitting effort ahead and it's worth getting yourself at
least a little prepared.
>But the idea of feeling something ............
Exactly. Knowing who, how and what one is, is such a prize that those
of us who don't get irretrievably damaged on the journey, regard it as
a small price to pay ........ but only if one is TS and how does one
know that with certainty before one starts?
And something else. This thread only came about because you said "I
want to talk about this" so if any of us has said anything remotely
useful to you, then it's because you found the courage to start this
particular ball rolling. That's a big step forward in taking care of
yourself.
Julia
Jennifer Usher
> After hormones, the first think I noticed was the change in body odours.
> From the musky odour of men to the tinny odour of women. After some time,
> about one month, you see your face for the first time in a mirror - the
> rounding has happened. Along the way, your skin softens, your emotions go
> up and down like a yo-yo, and you may start to feel breast buds
developing.
Or, you may still look like a man, as is the case with Mr. Willow.
> Libido slowly goes down, as a rule. Sometimes that happens quickly.
Or, it may increase. Some theorize that it goes down in non-transsexuals,
and takes on a different form in those who are transsexual.
> After one month, you retain fluid - and that can temporarily effect
> eyesight. That passes. Body hair starts to fade, and disappear. Coarse
> hair becomes fine. Public hair starts to develop a new pattern. Balding
is
> arrested and indeed, might start to regrowth after years I am told.
Nothing
> happens with the voice - you have to train that.
Actually, hormones affect the curvature of the cornea, and that will likely
lead to astigmatism, and no, it is not temporary.
> Medical assistance is required. Hormones and blockers can change
> electrolyte levels in the blood, the potassium and sodium, and other
issues
> can arise. Monthly testing is required.
Actually, how often you need to be tested is up to your doctor. I have
never heard of one testing monthly.
> Now, what we want to happen is for facial hair to slow and stop, feet,
hands
> and other bones to shrink, facial structure to change with no eye ridge, a
> different nose and chin, and perhaps a lowering of the scalp. None of
that
> happens. (Well, Jenny and Diane might say it does, but you can safely
> ignore those).
No, you have to go to a plastic surgeon for all of that, or be born lucky.
Good grief, you are an idiot.
> Fat starts to get redeposition on the body, from midsection to hips.
>
> You may experience a moos shift or two, especially after one month.
Actually, while all of the above is possible, it is unlikely to happen on
low doses of hormones. And none of it is certain. Hormones affect each
person differently, and some of what is described, especially the mood
changes, might be as much placebo as not.
Hormones, in spite of what Willie Boy implies, are not magic. It is a
matter of genetics, and what you have to start with. The younger you are,
the better your results will be.
--
Jennifer Usher
Willow Arune
Do you try or is it a natural talent?
You have no idea what my life is like, and continue to make assumptions. In
the process, you look more and more stupid.
W.
"Jennifer Usher" <jenni...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cg35ns$1bt2$4...@news.wplus.net...
Jennifer Usher
> You are such a stupid person, Jenny.
>
> Do you try or is it a natural talent?
>
> You have no idea what my life is like, and continue to make assumptions.
In
> the process, you look more and more stupid.
I don't make assumptions. Clearly, I am a lot closer to the truth than you
care to admit.
--
Jennifer Usher
Jennifer Usher
"L D Blake" <n...@any.adr> wrote in message
news:h7cai0tcs0126sd0r...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:06:29 -0700, "Jennifer Usher"
> <jenni...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Jesus Christ! 20 messages in a row and every single last one of them
loaded
> with insults and putdowns.
Well Lyle, you and your boyfriend Willie Boy just seem to have that effect.
--
Jennifer Usher
Willow Arune
W.
"Jennifer Usher" <jenni...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cg3fnu$374$2...@news.wplus.net...
spamthi...@localhost.com
first let me say that, imho, there have been a number of good responses from
users of this newsgroup and there have been some bogus responses. so you
have to "extract the signal from the noise". i'll leave it to your
judgement to categorize my responses, below. if you consider them "noise",
please ignore me!
On 17-Aug-2004, bianca...@yahoo.com (bianca) wrote:
> I am a 31 year old m-f ts. I need a bit of help/advice/support.
ok, let's pause for a moment. are you *sure* you're a MtF TS? or is this
what external forces are telling you? note that i raise this question with
your best interests in mind, not mine. and i'm not trying to put down your
self-analysis - just asking you to review it for a bit.
> My whole life I have known I should have been born female. I suffer
> through every minute of every day in this horrid male body.
so you're saying that you have Gender Dysphoria (nb: Dysphoria means
"confusion", although to you there may be nothing confusing about it!)
not all people with GD are TS, but all TS are GD. it's the old logic thing,
i.e., "all B are A but all A are not B". so maybe you're TG but not TS -
*maybe*. i'm not "stating this for a fact"; i'm asking you to consider
determining this for yourself.
> Although knowing this my whole life, I didn't transition because the
> usual pressures and shame. I look at myself today with great sadness I
> didn't have the courage to transition early in life. As time goes by
> it just gets worse and worse. I am now married and have a 3 year old
> son (I am pretty asexual and not attracted to any sex - so this was
> another step to show the world I wasn't ts). I have gone through
> phases of buying clothes - then throwing them out. Before long I would
> buy again just to make me feel a bit female - never worked.
the "binge and purge" phases are classic GD / TS signs, yes.
> I have been in therapy for 6 months. My therapist sais I am defintely
> ts (REALLY!!!!) and a good candidate to transition. But he also sais
> that I cannot as too many innocent people would get hurt in the
> process. He may be right. However, the pain and inability to function
> during daily tasks is an increbible burden to carry. I have also not
> ever met another m-f ts (at least knowingly) and have no one who I can
> just talk to as myself. I need to express the real me and really don't
> know what to do.
i agree with another poster who posited that your therapist *may* have a
"hidden agenda". this happens from time-to-time with therapists that have
hidden religious agendas. one recent case, exploited by those who hate GD
people, involves a very successful post-op MtF TS who "regrets" her
transition after speaking with her "counselor", who also happens to be her
Orthodox Rabbi. (nb: i'm Jewish, and not anti-semitic!) she is now
actively soliciting money to "help me reverse my sex change". so you must
be careful about advice from others. another poster (sorry i can't remember
names, but this is a very long thread!) said "question authority", and with
that i agree. a therapist *is* a type of authority figure, so please
consider questioning what they tell you. if you can afford it, get several
opinions. you said you are seeing an MD that is a psychiatrist - please
make sure that person is board-certified and objective (a queer-friendly
atheist would be good! <g>)
if your therapist said you were "transgendered (TG)", then that might make
sense. but for that person to *define* you as TS, that doesn't make much
sense.
i used to see a doctor that was great on nutrition and exercise. when i
told him i was depressed, he told me "go to church and get a little
religion". i never saw him after that. doctors, therapists, psychologists,
psychiatrists should have your best interests in mind, not theirs.
before you go getting on hormones or making any changes, i'm a firm believer
in the phrase "know yourself".
if you are already 100% positive you're a TS (and again, i'm not trying to
belittle or disbelieve your self-analysis, just asking you to make sure),
then to me the question becomes "ok, i'm a TS, now what do i do about it?"
if that is where your mind is at, and if i have mis-read your original
posting, my apologies. (however, it doesn't hurt to go back over this to be
100% certain!)
if you're 100% positive you're GD but not 100% sure you're a TS, then making
any physical changes is, imho, premature.
i once asked someone in a newsgroup, "how do i know what i am?" this person
told me, "go into a dark room, shut the door, get peace and quiet with no
external signals like lights, sound, etc., and reflect. you'll soon know
what you are." i don't know if this is making any sense to you, but it made
an awful lot of sense to me. so i did just that, and it validated my
feelings and helped remove doubt.
please remember Bianca, that this trip - if you decide to take it - is
either the most beautiful thing one can do, or can be the worst thing one
can do. so please think it through. i never regretted a moment of all of
the grief i encountered on the trip, and i'm very happy being a post-op MtF
TS. the vast majority of us are. there are, however, exceptions to any
rule, and it is only through intensive therapy and self-analysis *with an
objective, qualified therapist* that you will come to know who and what you
are.
my friends and i call going on hormonal replacement therapy the "roller
coaster". your entire dispostion will change and it will be non-trivial.
that's a lot to hide from your wife and child.
and please note that i'm not trying to rain on your parade! i care a lot
about GD people in this stage - so much so that i'm putting on a seminar at
an upcoming gender conference.
the next steps you take are very, very important.
if you would like to discuss this privately, my email is yvetteferrari at
hotmail dot com.
and afa support groups in ZA go, i for one will try to find some for you.
they are a great place to start!
> Hugs
hugs to you too!
yvette
spamthi...@localhost.com
i noodled around the internet looking for trans stuff in ZA. here's what i
found:
Dr. Derk Crichton (SRS surgeon in ZA, not sure if he's still practicing)
http://www.gmax.co.za/think/health/2004/040604-onlinehelp.html
SADAG (SA Depr & Anxiety Group) may have links to more support groups in
your area, specifically, in the practice of GD. probably worth a call.
Cape Town Transsexual/Transgender Support Group - these people exist, but i
can't find their website or their number.
Cape Argus online e-zine - http://www.capeargus.co.za - maybe they know of a
group
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/6006/rsa.htm
this is a web page that has a lot of links for GD ZA'ers. i bet they can
point you in the right direction.
sorry i couldn't find more. if these don't pan out, lmk.
hth!
yvette
bianca
You have certainly given me invaluable help.
Firstly I would like to provide some clarity. I regard myself as a ts
and not "just" transgendered. Since I have memories I have wanted to
be female, not just a passing phase or restricted to certain aspects.
An example is my therapist once asked me if I would like to live full
time dressed as a woman. I replied of course - especially at home when
I can wear a tracksuit! It would be great wearing pretty clothes, but
it would be meaningful if it was part of being a woman with everything
else. The same applies to all other aspects, the conclusion is I want
what any gg would want for herself - nothing more and nothing less. I
do admit, the rewards or consequences of transition are high and I
must still tread slowly and carefully to my next step (and every step
thereafter)
My life is very confusing. I have a beautiful family and a job that
pays really well. I can't complain about this. Despite this I am
extremely depressed because my whole life is built on lies and
mistakes. The real me is dying to get out. I will not take any
hormones without telling my wife first. My therapist prescribed
anti-depressants for me yesterday to help me focus while I try sort
out the path I am to travel.
I have also been in contact with some of the support groups you have
suggested. Soon I will meet, for the first, a person "in the flesh"
who has ts issues in common.
This is a very special communty bound by challenges and joy.
Thanks,
Bianca
Making friends is so important -
ju...@nomail.com (Julia) wrote in message news:<4125058e...@news.ision.net.uk>...
Helen Smith
writes
>so you're saying that you have Gender Dysphoria (nb: Dysphoria means
>"confusion", although to you there may be nothing confusing about it!)
Although having the condition of Gender Dysphoria may well bring about
feelings of confusion, I believe the real meaning of the word Dysphoria
to be... an intense psychological "discomfort".
--
Helen :)
Jennifer Usher
> Not even close - that is why you are so funny - and stupid...
Now, why don't I believe you?
--
Jennifer Usher
Alison Pretty
""E"" <e...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5QrUc.366$423....@news.uswest.net...
> X-No-Archive: no
>
> L D Blake wrote:
> > On 17 Aug 2004 06:17:01 -0700, bianca...@yahoo.com (bianca) wrote:
>
> I'm going to break with the usual here and say that some of the advice
given
> here by Blake is certainly valid and you should at least think about it.
>
> However, keep in mind that L D Blake is not postop or even transsexual,
has
> struggled with his own gender problems since first trying to transition
over
> 20 years ago, and states he currently lives an androgonous life style. He
> seems unable to concieve of the complete joy that mind body congruence can
> bring to a transsexual women.
>
> *You* must decide what is *right* for you, Bianca, not a therapist and not
> someone on a public newsgroup.
>
> I would suggest that you search locally and try to connect with a 3D
support
> group or possibly another person who has been where you are and would be
> willing to meet with you for some in-depth talk. If you do consider
yourself
> "transsexual" and really do feel the *need* to change your physical sex, I
> would suggest talking with a postop if possible. :)
>
> Best wishes
>
>
Alison Pretty
"Diane Arons" <diane...@yahoo.com> spewed in message
news:f9de03e3.04081...@posting.google.com...
Indeed....
Everything you need to know about the man who calls himself "Diane"
Arons can be found on google:
The man is a troll, sociopath and pathological liar. He is a racist,
homophobe (calls black people 'niggers' and gay peple 'fags') and
*extreme* mysogynist.
His entire purpose here is to give misleading advice to transgendered
people. You will undoubtedkly shortly receive an email from him
saying how he is the victim of a great conspiricy against him and his
advice.
Elaine, Diane, Dickless, Sandra, Valerie, Heather, and a few dozen other
aliases are used by a *very* small group of posters here. For the most part
they are co-operate to bolster each others posts.
The Dickless set suffers terribly in life and seems intent on using the
medium of "new advice" as a means of bolstering his own self-esteem
Think criticaly.
Question authority.
Best wishes finding a more helpful therapist.
Be happy, it isnt that bad.
Alison
Alison Pretty
There is also a school of thought that she is also Diane. Diane is well
known for replying to his own posts to make it appear as if people agree
with him.
Weigh the content of that offered to you, and beaware that some have hidden
agendas.
Hugs Alison
"Valerie" <Vale...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9548E51E4D06...@64.164.98.29...
> Bianca,
Amanda Angelika
> if your therapist said you were "transgendered (TG)", then that might
> make sense. but for that person to *define* you as TS, that doesn't
> make much sense.
Mind it is true to say the medical profession tend to use the term
"Transsexual" to mean "Gender Dysphoria" and use these terms
interchangeably. They tend not to use the term "Transgender", because it's
too non-specific, and isn't a medical term.
Course in the "Trans" community terms are used to define "status", both in a
non-judgemental broad sense, and in a judgemental and political sense to.
Obviously the medical profession has a different agenda and tend to apply
the term "Transsexual" to anyone who seeks medical help for GD. Course this
doesn't mean that everyone who seeks help for GD will become Post-op TS or
that this would necessarily be the desired course of action/treatment. It
simply means they use the terms as medical labels, as apposed to political
statements or descriptors of operative, social status.
It's probably best not to confuse the two usages really since when a doctor
or therapist says one is "Transsexual" it doesn't mean you are going to have
a sex change, need a sex change, or want a sex change, it just means you
have GD and nothing more.
There are of course a variety of ways of dealing with GD. :)
--
Amanda
---
Outgoing mail is certified Free of all known Germs and Viruses :)
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Alison Pretty
"bianca" <bianca...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:becd40d7.0408...@posting.google.com...
> Hi All
>
> Firstly I am touched by your responses.
> There must be plenty of ts's in Johannesburg, but I have no idea how
> therapists.
>
>
> Hugs,
> Bianca
Try ringing the equality project, Evert is a nice bloke (Im told), if you
can get hold of him (he's often busy)
The Lesbian and Gay Equality Project, Grafton Rd, Yeoville ph: 27 + 11
487-3810 /1 /2
The LGBTI Pride day is due in September, and they get progressively busier.
If you dont want to ring email the centre: in...@equality.org.za though I
know they are migrating servers on Monday
Hugs Alison
Alison Pretty
Alison, ratcatcher
"bianca" <bianca...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:becd40d7.04082...@posting.google.com...
spamthi...@localhost.com
> Mind it is true to say the medical profession tend to use the term
> "Transsexual" to mean "Gender Dysphoria" and use these terms
> interchangeably. They tend not to use the term "Transgender", because it's
> too non-specific, and isn't a medical term.
i agree and disagree. you are right insofar as most therapists do not use
the term "transgendered". mine does, as he has worked with other T's and as
such knows the lingua franca (and many others do, too).
> Course in the "Trans" community terms are used to define "status", both in
> a
> non-judgemental broad sense, and in a judgemental and political sense to.
while some may mean that, i did not use the term to imply a stratification
or classification of status. my apologies if my previous statement came
across like i did.
> Obviously the medical profession has a different agenda and tend to apply
> the term "Transsexual" to anyone who seeks medical help for GD. Course
> this
> doesn't mean that everyone who seeks help for GD will become Post-op TS or
> that this would necessarily be the desired course of action/treatment. It
> simply means they use the terms as medical labels, as apposed to political
> statements or descriptors of operative, social status.
nolo contendere. i have several non-op friends that are quite happy, so the
"op" is not always the answer.
> It's probably best not to confuse the two usages really since when a
> doctor
> or therapist says one is "Transsexual" it doesn't mean you are going to
> have
> a sex change, need a sex change, or want a sex change, it just means you
> have GD and nothing more.
i think this really depends on the doctor. in my experience, most doctors
that have little or no experience with T's will knee-jerk react to a new GD
patient and think "this person wants to have a sex change" - or, worse, try
to "talk the person out of it".
> There are of course a variety of ways of dealing with GD. :)
yes, i agree, and some are actually beneficial to the patient! <g>
ciao
yvette
spamthi...@localhost.com
On 20-Aug-2004, Helen Smith <endo...@nospamlandco.uk> wrote:
> Although having the condition of Gender Dysphoria may well bring about
> feelings of confusion, I believe the real meaning of the word Dysphoria
> to be... an intense psychological "discomfort".
actually, we're both right, according to this web page:
http://www.cinematter.com/madeleine2.html
"gender dysphoria (a Greek term indicating 'confusion' or something 'hard to
bear')"
ciao
yvette
Amanda Angelika
> On 20-Aug-2004, "Amanda Angelika" <manic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mind it is true to say the medical profession tend to use the term
>> "Transsexual" to mean "Gender Dysphoria" and use these terms
>> interchangeably. They tend not to use the term "Transgender",
>> because it's too non-specific, and isn't a medical term.
>
> i agree and disagree. you are right insofar as most therapists do
> not use the term "transgendered". mine does, as he has worked with
> other T's and as such knows the lingua franca (and many others do,
> too).
Well yes in a general sense the term "transgender" is sometimes used by
Therapists I agree
>> Course in the "Trans" community terms are used to define "status",
>> both in a
>> non-judgemental broad sense, and in a judgemental and political
>> sense to.
>
> while some may mean that, i did not use the term to imply a
> stratification or classification of status. my apologies if my
> previous statement came across like i did.
That's OK I didn't think you were really :) I was trying to clarify my use
of the term "status" since it can simply mean different states, or it can be
used to imply stratification. In the "trans" community it tends to operate
in both ways, so can be a difficult term to use, without clarification.
>> Obviously the medical profession has a different agenda and tend to
>> apply the term "Transsexual" to anyone who seeks medical help for
>> GD. Course this
>> doesn't mean that everyone who seeks help for GD will become Post-op
>> TS or that this would necessarily be the desired course of
>> action/treatment. It simply means they use the terms as medical
>> labels, as apposed to political statements or descriptors of
>> operative, social status.
>
> nolo contendere. i have several non-op friends that are quite happy,
> so the "op" is not always the answer.
True. I wasn't criticising you though. I was thinking how these things tend
to work in the "trans" community in observation of the fact that operative
"status" is used by some people in a hierarchical way.
>> It's probably best not to confuse the two usages really since when a
>> doctor
>> or therapist says one is "Transsexual" it doesn't mean you are going
>> to have
>> a sex change, need a sex change, or want a sex change, it just means
>> you have GD and nothing more.
>
> i think this really depends on the doctor. in my experience, most
> doctors that have little or no experience with T's will knee-jerk
> react to a new GD patient and think "this person wants to have a sex
> change" - or, worse, try to "talk the person out of it".
Well even if one takes the narrow definition of "Transsexual" as applying
to someone who is Surgery tracked or has had SRS as some do. From a medical
or even a logical point of view this narrow definition doesn't add-up,
because unless a person takes a particular stance against SRS, (and even
that can change) it would be difficult to rule it out of the picture, so
where Gender Dysphoria exists, so does the potential for change and it is
the *potential* which tends to make a person TS (because you can't define
the future before it has happened). How a person lives their life and what
bodily modifications they make or have performed confirm this potential, but
the potential exists along with the cause.
Personally I tend to agree with the broad medical definition of
transsexuality. I tend to reject narrow definitions of Transsexuality and
Trangenderism because they tend to be politically motivated, often elitist
and hierarchical, and ultimately I'm not interested in the petty infighting
of wanabe trannies LOL I'm more concerned with being a woman :) So all the
in-fighting and status seeking in the T' community is a load of irrelevant
nonsense IMO it's not where it's at, it just shows a lot of people simply
miss the whole point. :)
>
>> There are of course a variety of ways of dealing with GD. :)
>
> yes, i agree, and some are actually beneficial to the patient! <g>
Yes :)
Julia
>I regard myself as a ts and not "just" transgendered.
What follows is said distinctly tongue in cheek but still .....
May I suggest you avoid getting too specific on the subject of labels.
Not because you may be "wrong" or "right" but simply that there is
nothing, I think, in this world of ours that generates more heat than
light.
For example, there's a faction that would tear you apart for using TS
or, indeed, trans-sexual in what form of spelling you choose as a noun
in the way that you did above. It's seen by some to carry similar
connotations to "black" as a noun or whatever. The simplest way
through this is just to be you.
Personally, I use TS as a noun but that's just me. I also deprecate
such frequently used expressions as "the woman I was meant to be". An
understanding of the biology shows that I was meant to be a man but it
went wrong in the early stages of gestation and I finished as I am but
I wasn't "meant" to be a woman - it's just more appropriate that I
live as one and my body is now a reasonable approximation of one.
>.... the rewards or consequences of transition are high and I
>must still tread slowly and carefully to my next step (and every step
>thereafter)
I do agree. One of my little analogies is to do with being drunk.
It's possible to say "I was absolutely xxxxxx last night" and then
correct it to "well, what I really mean is that I'd had a few"
followed by a knowing male grin and it's understood that perhaps you
can "take your drink" and really you were still in control of things.
Contrast that with the statement "I am a TS". Such a remark leaves
you nowhere to go - the statement "well, what I really mean is that I
like getting dressed up from time to time" only leaves you deeper in
the mire of your own making.
Some things, like alcohol consumption or intellect, can be seen as
relative states whereas being TS, like being dead, fall very firmly
into the category of absolutes. Do realize that you can't retract
such a statement - once the cat is out of the bag, you have to live
with it.
>I have a beautiful family and a job that pays really well. I can't complain
>about this.
And I don't think you are.
>..... my whole life is built on lies and mistakes. The real me is dying
>to get out.
And I'm sure, now, that you are working responsibly towards that.
>I will not take any
>hormones without telling my wife first. My therapist prescribed
>anti-depressants for me yesterday to help me focus while I try sort
>out the path I am to travel.
When it comes to telling your wife do try to remember the vast gulf
that exists between your understanding of what you mean and her
understanding of what you mean.
In my country we're often portrayed as drag queens or, in some way,
self-indulgent. Admittedly this has more than a grain of truth to it
for some but the biology of the thing and the sheer grinding pain of
overthrowing everything we've been taught is not taken into account
and I think it's fair to say that we get a pretty bad press.
Her understanding of what "being TS" means will be coloured by the
last news item on the TV or in the press. It's important to start
from where she is at rather than to presume that she knows where you
are coming from.
>Soon I will meet, for the first, a person "in the flesh"
>who has ts issues in common.
Don't forget that we're all different. I've met some really nice TS
folk and some absolutely awful ones. I hope this meeting goes well
but as with any one individual it may depend on chemistry and values.
Do let us know how things go.
Julia
Paulinev01
>julia@nomail.c
Funny how I never wanted that adjective before my name. and the idea of its
being used as a noun.......
i.e. I want to be a police man.
I want to be a man.
I want to be a transsexual.
sorry the usage and definision is wrong.
You are the only one I have read that has said they wanted to be a transsexual,
almost all of us wish we were not ever refered to as that.
I always knew I was a Woman.
I did what I had to to fulfill that feeling.
Transsexual was a phase in that journey.
like a catapiller becoming a butterfly.
and unfortunatly not every catapiller becomes a butterfly, some become moths
and some never change at all.
and some become food for the masses.
So Julia, what do you wish to be?
or What are you now?
Or 10 years ago?
WHEN ITS TIME ITS TIME
The hardest step of any journey is the first,
The most satisfying is the last.........
www.TAVAUSA.org
www.TSTGSociety.org
REV Pauline Overby
www.churchofopenassumptions.org
PAULINE/Paula
Amanda Angelika
I always think it sounds like the opposite of Euphoria, which must also be
an ancient Greek word, but precise meanings of words can change over time,
and often the original Greek meanings of English words can be quite
different. I suppose it's true meaning depends on what the person who coined
the expression "gender dysphoria" ascribed to it, but it certainly does
cause confusion, so there must be an element of that in it's meaning :)
DoomsdayDriver
> spamthi...@localhost.com wrote:
>
>>On 20-Aug-2004, Helen Smith <endo...@nospamlandco.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Although having the condition of Gender Dysphoria may well bring
>>>about feelings of confusion, I believe the real meaning of the word
>>>Dysphoria to be... an intense psychological "discomfort".
>>
>>actually, we're both right, according to this web page:
>>
>>http://www.cinematter.com/madeleine2.html
>>
>>"gender dysphoria (a Greek term indicating 'confusion' or something
>>'hard to bear')"
>>
>>ciao
>>yvette
>
>
> I always think it sounds like the opposite of Euphoria, which must also be
> an ancient Greek word, but precise meanings of words can change over time,
> and often the original Greek meanings of English words can be quite
> different. I suppose it's true meaning depends on what the person who coined
> the expression "gender dysphoria" ascribed to it, but it certainly does
> cause confusion, so there must be an element of that in it's meaning :)
http://merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=dysphoric&x=0&y=0
dd
--
"Real Life: It's working as coded..."
Amanda Angelika
> Want to call it what it is?
>
> It's Genital Disassociation Disorder.
Sounds like a dislaimer :)
> A state in which a person is made completely miserable because of
> their genitalia and wants to surgically disassociate themselves with
> them.
Well actually I don't think it works like that from a medical standpoint. I
mean the dysphoria is associated with the gender one is supposed to be, or
expected by society as a consequence of your sex (read accident of birth).
So people take steps to correct that situation. Obviously there are a
variety of ways of dealing with GD ranging from living as the "opposite" sex
to SRS depending how severe it is.
I think the desire to change sex if it is "Genital Disassociation Disorder"
is based on the social implications of ones genetals and the fact that in
order to live your life as fully as possible as a woman, SRS is as far as
one can go. But obviously anyone who undertakes bodily alterations to look
like the "opposite" sex, even if it is only taking female hormones and/or
anti androgens to chemically castrate their maleness is to a degree
transsexual. I mean even electro is a permanent or long term physical
alteration to appear as the opposite sex and is thefore a desire to
disassociate the body from the social implications of it's genetalia.
Course I think some of us have Transsexual Dissassociation Disorder. ;)
--
Amanda
---
Outgoing mail is certified Free of all known Germs and Viruses :)
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 30/07/2004
DoomsdayDriver
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:03:46 +0100, "Amanda Angelika"
> <manic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>>Dysphoria to be... an intense psychological "discomfort".
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>I suppose it's true meaning depends on what the person who coined
>>the expression "gender dysphoria" ascribed to it, but it certainly does
>>cause confusion, so there must be an element of that in it's meaning :)
>
>
> medicine. Dysphoria means essentially that one is miserable about something
> which is only marginally applicable, we can be miserable about a lot of stuff
> without wanting to change it... Gender is a complete misnomer as the real
> discomfort is with the person's genitals, their SEX and not their gender at
> all.
>
> Want to call it what it is?
>
> It's Genital Disassociation Disorder.
>
> genitalia and wants to surgically disassociate themselves with them.
>
>
> Laura
Well, the focus is not on "being rid of genitals", it's on
"getting the appropriate" genitals.
Speaking strictly for myself of course...
:)
Sandra
correct. It begins in many of us even before we're aware that there is
such a thing as "sex". It's an innate sense that not only is the body
wrong, but the whole societal role for that person is wrong. The genitals
are but one piece of the puzzle. You could just as well say we feel upset
because we don't have breasts or female facial features, or small bones,
or wide hips, or hairless faces. Or because we don't have a uterus or
ovaries or childbearing capability. The point is that the *whole picture*
from the individual's point of view is skewed to the wrong side of the
gender fence and we feel obliged to correct that. Genital modification is
but one aspect of the total transition but one that is by itself
societally frowned upon. If it were simple genital modification then
there would be no push for integration into female society. Or to live as
fully and completely as possible in society as the women we know we are.
You make the same mistake that non-t people do -- you mistake our desire
for a congruent body *and a congruent role in society* with simple
genital modification. Our need goes far beyond that as any number of
women here have told you before.
Sandra
L D Blake <n...@any.adr> wrote in
news:g0cli0lhv4lqs5uqf...@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 02:56:13 +0100, "Amanda Angelika"
> <manic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>L D Blake wrote:
>>
>>> Want to call it what it is?
>>>
>>> It's Genital Disassociation Disorder.
>>
>>Sounds like a dislaimer :)
>>
>>> A state in which a person is made completely miserable because of
>>> their genitalia and wants to surgically disassociate themselves with
>>> them.
>>
>>Well actually I don't think it works like that from a medical
>>standpoint.
>
>
> From the SOC at http://www.hbigda.org/socv6.cfm#03
>
> " In 1994, the DSM-IV committee replaced the diagnosis of
> Transsexualism with Gender Identity Disorder. Depending on their age,
> those with a strong and persistent cross-gender identification and a
> persistent discomfort with their sex or a sense of inappropriateness
> in the gender role of that sex "
>
> The medical texts on transsexualism are chock-a-block full of this
> perspective. Clearly they do believe that transsexuals desire to
> disassociate them selves with their birth genitals.
>
>
>>I
>>mean the dysphoria is associated with the gender one is supposed to
>>be, or expected by society as a consequence of your sex (read accident
>>of birth).
>
> Right... now ask why that is? Where does this dysphoria come from?
>
>
>
>>I think the desire to change sex if it is "Genital Disassociation
>>Disorder" is based on the social implications of ones genetals...
>
> Right again... now ask why that is? Why are these people so
> uncomfortable with their genitals? (Hint the answer is in your own
> statement above)
>
>
>
> -----
> Laura
>
DoomsdayDriver
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 02:49:24 GMT, DoomsdayDriver <doomsda...@spamme.not>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Well, the focus is not on "being rid of genitals", it's on
>>"getting the appropriate" genitals.
>>
>>Speaking strictly for myself of course...
>
>
>
> -----
> Laura
Yes. In the same way I'd "disassociate" from a club foot had
I been born with one then had it corrected.
You see, focus tends to reveal perspective which can then
shed light upon motivation which in turn begs the
question(s) "what am I/are you? & why does this subject
constantly resurface?".
:)
The answer of course is it's all theory & you are the only
one qualified to define your identity so many of these
"identity" threads (which inevitably seem to boil down to
two or more people refusing to accept one another's
self-definitions, bfd!) seem a bit pointless to me.
Julia
>You are the only one I have read that has said they wanted to be a transsexual,
If you'd care to show me where I said "I wanted to be a transsexual"
then I will be happy to correct it. I can't imagine anyone wanting to
be a TS. I've never considered this particular aberration to be a
gift, more an inconvenience.
In fact, earlier in this very thread, I wrote " - as I said earlier,
who on earth would want to be TS?"
Alternatively, if you meant to express surprise that I acknowledged
the common noun transsexual as appropriate to my status then perhaps
you might consider being a little more careful in your choice of
words.
>So Julia, what do you wish to be?
I don't wish to be. I am.
>What are you now?
When asked that question some years ago, I replied "I recognize three
labels - person, parent and my name and that's all". Some time later
and that still feels ok though I now see that if I had a partner then
that too would be added to the list .......... all the rest is by the
way
Julia
spamthi...@localhost.com
On 23-Aug-2004, L D Blake <n...@any.adr> wrote:
> Right... now ask why that is? Where does this dysphoria come from?
<rant>
the dysphoria comes from being forced to live a life which you do not want
to live due to societal pressures and due to other people "defining" what
each gender "is". and woe be to those "defined" that do not fit into the
appropriate categories as laid out by the "definers"! (who died and put
them in charge? <g>)
for me, i couldn't have lived the life of a woman with male genitalia. they
*had to go*, and go they did. but that is just me, and i will not attempt
to apply it to others - because i do not want to fall into the category of a
"definer".
i know probably over a hundred gender-"challenged" people and each is in
their own particular niche on the gender "spectrum". trying to use one,
two, or seventeen terms to categorize these people is a waste of time.
am i a woman? am i an AG man? *who cares*! if anybody's curious, come to
SCC this September - i'll be there, judge for yourself(-ves).
so going back to my original post, if i incorrectly or ambiguously or
inappropriately defined the term "dysphoric", then once again i apologize.
when i related that post to this usenet group, it was a verbatim quote of
what my previous shrink (a board certified psychiatrist, who "ought to know
such things") told me.
(fwiw, he also told me "euphoria" means "state of ecstasy", which *may* or
*may not* appear in any one particular dictionary with that definition.
"state of ecstasy" is certainly what i felt after SRS, so it all made sense
to this dumb blonde.)
however, shrinks get things wrong (duh!) and so do we.
we can call these things what we want, from "GDD" <groan> to GD to TS ad
nauseum, but at the end of the day i'm reading / studying / listening /
participating in, and learning from, this group because i am no longer the
"gender" - such as it may be - that i once "was" (such as it may not have
been!)
after i transitioned, some friends of mine asked me, "what do you think of
your gender now?" i replied that i felt that gender was an artificial
societal construct. and i still believe that.
had i not been forced for many, many years to live a life that wasn't "me",
then maybe i would have handled the entire approach to my "gender-variance"
differently. indeed, maybe i wouldn't even have *been* "gender-variant" -
after all, how can you have "variance" without a "norm"? <g>
as long as 99.9--9% percent of society demands that we live in these two
"little gender boxes", then gender-variance will exist, gender-variant
people will exist, we'll continue to have these massive taffy-pulls over
terms and what not, and we'll have ignoramii coming into this group telling
us who is AG and who is a "real" this-or-that! what a laff.
just my $0.02.
</rant>
yvette
Paulinev01
>
before taking offence re read your origional letter.
and Transsexual is a discriptive word not a noun.
>acknowledged
>the common noun transsexual
>acknowledged
>the common noun transsexual
>who on earth would want to be TS?"
>
ABSOLUTLY NONE OF US.
Helen Smith
writes
>
>On 23-Aug-2004, L D Blake <n...@any.adr> wrote:
>
>> Right... now ask why that is? Where does this dysphoria come from?
>
><rant>
>
>the dysphoria comes from being forced to live a life which you do not want
>to live due to societal pressures and due to other people "defining" what
>each gender "is". and woe be to those "defined" that do not fit into the
>appropriate categories as laid out by the "definers"! (who died and put
>them in charge? <g>)
>
>for me, i couldn't have lived the life of a woman with male genitalia. they
>*had to go*, and go they did. but that is just me, and i will not attempt
>to apply it to others - because i do not want to fall into the category of a
>"definer".
>
Laura believes that GRS patients are derived from transgenderist people
who bow down to 'social pressure', and thus require a female looking
body to live as a woman.
She believes that with a bit of therapy and a stiff talking to :> any
m2f transsexual who is GRS tracked will suddenly stop feeling the need
for surgery and become enchanted with the _male_ body one was born with!
:D
Personally I believe, and not from my own experience, that her theory is
a misunderstanding of why GRS is sought, reasons of body incongruity of
self image that are innate and arrive from instinct.
Yvette, why did you have your GRS?...
Was it so the social world around you felt comfortable or did you have
it for own reasons?...
Or both?
>i know probably over a hundred gender-"challenged" people and each is in
>their own particular niche on the gender "spectrum". trying to use one,
>two, or seventeen terms to categorize these people is a waste of time.
>
>am i a woman? am i an AG man? *who cares*! if anybody's curious, come to
>SCC this September - i'll be there, judge for yourself(-ves).
>
>so going back to my original post, if i incorrectly or ambiguously or
>inappropriately defined the term "dysphoric", then once again i apologize.
>when i related that post to this usenet group, it was a verbatim quote of
>what my previous shrink (a board certified psychiatrist, who "ought to know
>such things") told me.
>
Their may not be a direct, one word, translation into plain English. I
herd Dr. Steven Whittle use the meaning of dysphoria as 'discomfort' on
an occasion when he was speaking on the telly.
It's just that the word, 'confusion' could be taken, too literally to
mean we are confused people who don't know what gender we are because we
are daft and need someone to tell us ~
On the other hand, 'discomfort' simple means we aren't comfy with the
ongoing circumstance; in the case of gender dysphoria - concerning our
gender.
It's not wheather we are either wrong or right about this but I can see
different people assuming a meaning for Gender Dysphoria to the benefit
of there own particular cause.
>(fwiw, he also told me "euphoria" means "state of ecstasy", which *may* or
>*may not* appear in any one particular dictionary with that definition.
>"state of ecstasy" is certainly what i felt after SRS, so it all made sense
>to this dumb blonde.)
>
It's good being blonde isn't it ; )
>however, shrinks get things wrong (duh!) and so do we.
>
>we can call these things what we want, from "GDD" <groan> to GD to TS ad
>nauseum, but at the end of the day i'm reading / studying / listening /
>participating in, and learning from, this group because i am no longer the
>"gender" - such as it may be - that i once "was" (such as it may not have
>been!)
>
>after i transitioned, some friends of mine asked me, "what do you think of
>your gender now?" i replied that i felt that gender was an artificial
>societal construct. and i still believe that.
>
I also know that gender is a social construct, but I also believe in
basic animal psychology applying to humans in that one must look at
instinctive behaviours _and_ life experience to arrive at ones
individual selfhood.
>had i not been forced for many, many years to live a life that wasn't "me",
>then maybe i would have handled the entire approach to my "gender-variance"
>differently. indeed, maybe i wouldn't even have *been* "gender-variant" -
>after all, how can you have "variance" without a "norm"? <g>
>
>as long as 99.9--9% percent of society demands that we live in these two
>"little gender boxes", then gender-variance will exist, gender-variant
>people will exist, we'll continue to have these massive taffy-pulls over
>terms and what not, and we'll have ignoramii coming into this group telling
>us who is AG and who is a "real" this-or-that! what a laff.
>
IMO, AGism is another gross misunderstanding of transsexualism and I
personally don't believe any such condition really exists outside the
biased mind ignorant psychiatrists.
I believe that society is very unfair to transfolk, and especially so to
transgendered people who simply want to live the only way they feel they
can.
>just my $0.02.
></rant>
>yvette
I didn't think you were ranting but speaking from the heart and I rather
enjoyed it, Thank You : )
--
Helen
spamthi...@localhost.com
On 24-Aug-2004, Helen Smith <endo...@nospamlandco.uk> wrote:
> >
> You need to be careful how you explain yourself to Laura...
oops! i wasn't explaining myself - if that is the term - to any *one*
person. i was simply trying to inject my $0.02 worth into this discussion.
someone made a quote like "all but one of you are AG", and i felt (probably
foolishly) that statement demanded a reply. as i'm new to usenet and news
groups, i'm still not sure "where i should post what". so my previous post
was probably in the wrong spot on the stack - sorry!
> (snippage) reasons of body incongruity of self image that are innate and
> arrive from instinct.
"incongruity" - now *that* is a fab word. and that's what i had. i looked
in the mirror and saw all woman except "Mr. Uh-Oh!", who *had to go*.
nowadays, i simply see too much woman! <rotfpmpl>
btw, i am a vocabulary-oriented person, and thank you for having a great
vocabulary.
> Yvette, why did you have your GRS?...
i wasn't busy that friday afternoon, and i wanted to play from the red tees.
<giggling>
seriously: Carlos Castenada was lectured by Juan Matus that one should be
in control of oneself at all times, so that one was not "like a leaf in the
wind". i find this impossible, and even if it were possible, it would be
impracticable. it was something i believed i had to do since an early age
but suppressed for about 30 years. after all, in 1958, who knew from
trans-whatever-ism? after i made sufficient funds to do it, the
long-suppressed reality suddenly surfaced, so i went to see a shrink that
was *not* a GD specialist and told him "eliminate all other possiblities,
puhleeze". Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote "if you take away everything it is
not, that which remains, no matter how improbable, is what it surely must
be", or words to that effect (please don't get pedantic on me!) some part
of me *knew*, but after those ~30 years of "society", if i can use that
term, "trying to beat the girl out of me", it was suppressed way down deep.
so i yakked on compuserve (all i knew about in '95) for months and all the
old feelings came back and there i was, back at my original belief, that i
was born with the wrong anatomy, and that it had to change.
the psychological effect of suppressing something as basic as one's gender
is very, very difficult to "de-program". it took me a long time, but i'm
happy now, so ... who cares what i do with my body? isn't it mine to do
with as i please, or are the people that "know what's good for me" really
right? <groan>
i remember telling my shrink: "my wife is happy, my friends are happy, my
customers are happy, my employees are happy, why can't i be happy?" he
replied: "you greedy bastard!" and we both had a good laugh.
so if it makes you happy, and no one gets hurt, who cares? isn't being
happy what life's about?
and the red tees make par'ing the hole real easy! <giggling>
> Was it so the social world around you felt comfortable or did you have
> it for own reasons?...
> Or both?
hmmm. the social world around me only feels comfortable here in SF.
chicago, europe, and texas were either very uncomfortable with me or were
hostile to me. from my viewpoint, i was uncomfortable in all those places.
here in SF i'm "just average" on the craziness scale - i'm not "news". so i
am now comfortable, and usually ignored, which is fabulous.
that says something about life, neh? i strive to be ignored! <g>
> I didn't think you were ranting but speaking from the heart and I rather
> enjoyed it, Thank You : )
and thank you for your lovely compliment! (nb: the "</rant>" labels are
programming blog lingua franca for a long shpiel, but thanks again for
confirming it was just a label and not an actual rant!)
ciao
yvette
Helen Smith
writes
>and the red tees make par'ing the hole real easy! <giggling>
>
But it was your surgeon who scored a nice hole in one! : >
--
Helen
Paulinev01
>>
>
>But it was your surgeon who scored a nice hole in one! : >
>--
FOUR!!!!!!!