OT - martial arts resources?
Metal.Fem
I'm hoping the legendary collective knowledge of ssbb can come up with
the goods again.
I'm looking for a clue enhanced female friendly martial arts discussion
space of some kind. I've turned up a lot of references to the Kiai
discussion list but it apparently no longer exists.
The available usenet resources look not dissimilar to the heavy metal
groups I used to frequent - this is not what I'm looking for. And the
rest of what I've turned up through Google definitely backs Sturgeon's
Law.
I'm learning an internal kung fu style and the reason I'm looking is
because, frankly, keeping at it is requiring a fairly high level of
mental toughness and I'm feeling very alone on my little planet at the
moment.
Being the only woman at my level and only seeing one woman at the level
above me and none at the level above that doesn't help - especially
when you bear in mind that not all women are potential buddies or
mentors.
At the moment I'm really only still there because I'm too stubborn to
quit and I like what I've learned. It is wearing tho', I had to
quietly make an exit from class today so no-one would see me cry out of
sheer frustration [1].
Book suggestions would also be gratefully received.
MetalFem
[1] This is not so much a shame thing as a "don't frighten the horses
thing". While I can rely on sick twisted cackling perverts to
understand that I'll happily push through crying and keep on the job,
it's not something I like to do in front of vanilla menfolk.
Philip the Foole
> I'm looking for a clue enhanced female friendly martial arts discussion
> space of some kind.
The percentage of females in martial arts seems to be increasing. I
attended a workshop by Dan Inosanto (one of Bruce Lee's best-known
students) over the weekend. At least half of those in attendance,
including several of the highest-ranking attendees, were female.
At the local judo, escrima, and tai chi clubs, more than half the
members are female. There are also several very proficient women in the
kickboxing club and the boxing gym. In fact, the only local martial
arts groups with no women are the wrestling club and the "No Holds
Barred" mixed martial arts fighting club. This appears to me to be the
result of self-selection rather than prejudice. The coaches of these
two groups would be absolutely delighted if a woman wanted to join.
A couple of female-friendly martial arts sources might include:
"Women in Aikido," by Andrea Siegel, (North Atlantic Books, Berkeley,
1993)
and "Letters to a Great Lady," by Jerri Massi (based on famed swordsman
Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings.")
<http://www.pipeline.com/~jeriwho/collectd.htm>
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
Never beat your wife with your sword. It shows a lack of respect for
the sword.
- Ancient Samurai Saying
Always show respect when you beat your wife with your sword.
- Ancient Kung Foole Proverb
Sockermom9
>I'm looking for a clue enhanced female friendly martial arts discussion
>space of some kind. I've turned up a lot of references to the Kiai
>discussion list but it apparently no longer exists.
I can't help you much there. I gave up on martial arts groups on line when my
blood-pressure problem was diagnosed.
>I'm learning an internal kung fu style and the reason I'm looking is
>because, frankly, keeping at it is requiring a fairly high level of
>mental toughness and I'm feeling very alone on my little planet at the
>moment.
Hhmmm. Hhhmmm. I'm thinking.
OK, that hurdle having been overcome...let me give you my thoughts and not
worry about whether they make sense or not.
First of all, when people ask me about martial arts and which to study, one of
the things I tell them is to visit any school they're interested in. That, no
matter what the style, if they feel comfortable, happy and interested at the
school and with the people, then they'll continue the study, even if it's a
style they'd never have thought they'd enjoy. It doesn't sound like you feel
"home" at this place, or with these people.
You--I believe--really need to feel home if you're going to train. Especially
those styles that are less "and then you punch them" in their approach. You
need to have a "mom" or a "dad", a "nagging big brother", and so on. Gender
ought not matter, if there is someone who can fill those roles (though I
understand not liking being the only chick in the room. It does get wearying).
Next thought--yes, I actually had two of them--is that you sound like you're at
a plateau. Feeling stuck, and not getting helpful advice on how to move on.
Now would be a fine time for "mom" to step in with some words of wisdom.
But--and this is the hard-style hard-add side of me, sometimes mom just isn't
available. You have to grab your own bootstraps, and tell yourself the things
that you need to hear.
Sockermom9
Anyway, you also said:
>Being the only woman at my level and only seeing one woman at the level
>above me and none at the level above that doesn't help - especially
>when you bear in mind that not all women are potential buddies or
>mentors.
For all the loneliness, you can take pride in being a pioneer. Every
achievement counts for more. That's why everyone knows the name of the first
people to climb Everest, and not the names of the second group. Your journey
of discovery leaves trails that other women will have there to help them past
the sorts of troubles you're experiencing now.
>At the moment I'm really only still there because I'm too stubborn to
>quit and I like what I've learned. It is wearing tho', I had to
>quietly make an exit from class today so no-one would see me cry out of
>sheer frustration [1].
This is a fine attitude. No, I'm not being sarcastic, I mean it. Sometimes,
just being the toughest bitch in the place and determining to bend that steel
bar or die trying is the only way to go. Yes, it's hard work, but the easy
stuff isn't worth much.
Now, that said, this just might not be the place for you. It's hard to leave a
study to which you've committed--it's like getting a divorce, but with lots
more hurt feelings because of the numbers involved--but there are places that
are just too toxic for one, due to gender or other issues. Another studio,
another style, another instructor, may make all the difference.
And no, I don't know how to determine if this is a case of toxic-choice or a
time to buckle down and press the nose harder into the grindstone. You're
trying one; maybe give it a little longer and then, if it's not getting you
where you want to be, think about trying the other one.
Further thoughts...Lynn, you're projecting like mad here. You sound like a
failed psych student trying to justify not doing more jujitsu.
And lastly, you wrote:
>[1] This is not so much a shame thing as a "don't frighten the horses
>thing". While I can rely on sick twisted cackling perverts to
>understand that I'll happily push through crying and keep on the job,
>it's not something I like to do in front of vanilla menfolk.
This is the "pioneer" thing. When you've made it through your current crisis,
and hit the top (Bwahahaha...the top, in martial arts...I slay myself
sometimes!) you'll be there to help other women through the same thing, and to
explain the situation to those guys, and to make the place a healthier one for
women, hopefully without sacrificing the nature of the arts and the style.
It's still a man's world, and we wouldn't have joined it if we didn't think we
could cope as equals. And we can, even though sometimes there are potholes the
guys don't even see.
Lynn
SilverOz
Metal.Fem <meta...@webone.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>I'm looking for a clue enhanced female friendly martial arts discussion
>space of some kind. I've turned up a lot of references to the Kiai
>discussion list but it apparently no longer exists.
>
Not sure about discussion list, but a look over Jeri's site
(http://www.pipeline.com/~jeriwho/) might be helpful, and she's always
happy to discuss martial arts with people. She might know of some
resources too.
I have already mentioned her stuff here before. Her "Letters to a
Great Lady" are, I think, useful for D&S folk to read and think on,
especially those who have ended up with manipulative or abusive
partners.
Jeri's not at all femme :) But she's not a bloke either.
SilverOz
blueglass
> I'm looking for a clue enhanced female friendly martial arts discussion
> space of some kind. I've turned up a lot of references to the Kiai
> discussion list but it apparently no longer exists.
Disclaimer: I haven't tried any of these, but I started with a local
organization I know and found...
World Budo Alliance at http://www.geocities.com/wbawomen/ has a
discussion mailing list
http://www.angelfire.com/ut/FRomney/ says that it's wordwide and matches
women in martial arts with mentors
some Yahoo groups:
(Women in Martial Arts) Australia http://www.constructionzone.com.au/winma/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/womenmartialartists/
--
blueglass
smallr...@yahootrash.com
take out the "trash" before trying to respond by email
Metal.Fem
<socke...@aol.comm> wrote:
> First of all, when people ask me about martial arts and which to study, one of
> the things I tell them is to visit any school they're interested in. That, no
> matter what the style, if they feel comfortable, happy and interested at the
> school and with the people, then they'll continue the study, even if it's a
> style they'd never have thought they'd enjoy. It doesn't sound like you feel
> "home" at this place, or with these people.
I did feel comfortable at first but it feels like the level of feedback
and individual attention has dropped off markedly.
I don't think it's because I'm a lazy sow who has earned the big ignore
for not training hard enough or showing enough potential but being an
a-type I can get subject to those kinds of paranoias - and it's
possible I guess too.
My first guess about what is going on is that the beginner class sizes
have gotten a bit unweildy for them, and there's been a lot of drop out
at my level so they're not very focussed on the few intermediates.
I intend to ask about it next time I see the guy who owns the school in
any case. I think I'd been holding off doing that because of the whole
class culture of "work it out yourself". Which is fine - I'm happy to
work it out myself mostly, but sometimes I also need a bit of external
reassurance that I am getting somewhere.
> You--I believe--really need to feel home if you're going to train. Especially
> those styles that are less "and then you punch them" in their approach. You
> need to have a "mom" or a "dad", a "nagging big brother", and so on. Gender
> ought not matter, if there is someone who can fill those roles (though I
> understand not liking being the only chick in the room. It does get
> wearying).
You're right, the gender wouldn't matter to me if I could snag a big
brother figure of some kind. I think there are some potentials, but
I'm going to have to work out how to approach it.
> Next thought--yes, I actually had two of them--is that you sound like you're
> at
> a plateau. Feeling stuck, and not getting helpful advice on how to move on.
Yep. I seem to have hit a really big "the more you know, the more you
realise what you're screwing up" plateau recently and while I know this
is supposed to be a good sign, I'm finding it disheartening, and I
think the lack of feedback is exacerbating that.
> Now would be a fine time for "mom" to step in with some words of wisdom.
> But--and this is the hard-style hard-add side of me, sometimes mom just isn't
> available. You have to grab your own bootstraps, and tell yourself the things
> that you need to hear.
After reading your post I plan to ask for some advice, and to boost
the amount of out of class training I do as well, so hopefully that
will help get me out of my current pit.
> For all the loneliness, you can take pride in being a pioneer. Every
> achievement counts for more. That's why everyone knows the name of the first
> people to climb Everest, and not the names of the second group. Your journey
> of discovery leaves trails that other women will have there to help them past
> the sorts of troubles you're experiencing now.
You know I hadn't really considered this aspect,but before I lost the
plot yesterday I had been talking to a newbie woman about the classes
and answering a bunch of her questions. Thanks for the reminder.
> This is a fine attitude. No, I'm not being sarcastic, I mean it. Sometimes,
> just being the toughest bitch in the place and determining to bend that steel
> bar or die trying is the only way to go. Yes, it's hard work, but the easy
> stuff isn't worth much.
When I first rang about the classes I asked how many women
participated. The answer was "some, but it's a tough class, not many
last", I immediately thought to myself "rightio tuff guy, we'll see
shall we?".
That makes the class sound more negative than it is btw, it's not full
of 22 year old guys who are angry at their mothers and there has been
talk about teaching those women that do stick it out some feminine
fighting styles. Just hasn't come to fruition yet.
Anyway, it's partly because I do have that never say die streak that it
bugs me to hell when I find myself feeling weak and small about it all.
> Now, that said, this just might not be the place for you. It's hard to leave
> a
> study to which you've committed--it's like getting a divorce, but with lots
> more hurt feelings because of the numbers involved--but there are places that
> are just too toxic for one, due to gender or other issues. Another studio,
> another style, another instructor, may make all the difference.
I think I need to give this place a bit more of a run, and give them
some feedback too. I can see what you mean about the divorce thing, I
really love this style and in small cities in Australia it's hard to
find many alternatives.
> This is the "pioneer" thing. When you've made it through your current crisis,
> and hit the top (Bwahahaha...the top, in martial arts...I slay myself
> sometimes!) you'll be there to help other women through the same thing, and to
> explain the situation to those guys, and to make the place a healthier one for
> women, hopefully without sacrificing the nature of the arts and the style.
>
> It's still a man's world, and we wouldn't have joined it if we didn't think we
> could cope as equals. And we can, even though sometimes there are potholes the
> guys don't even see.
Thank-you so much for all this Lynn, talk about the right thing at the
right time. Looking at it now I think I did just need a pat on the
head and a "get yer arse back out there" pep talk, rather than
somewhere to read people trolling each other about the true nature of
chi.
Thanks again.
regards
MetalFem
Sockermom9
>I did feel comfortable at first but it feels like the level of feedback
>and individual attention has dropped off markedly.
Yah, the honeymoon is over. ;-) The highest dropout rates are at yellow belt
(2nd kyu) and first brown (9th kyu). in other words, at just-past-beginner and
almost-there.
>I don't think it's because I'm a lazy sow who has earned the big ignore
>for not training hard enough or showing enough potential but being an
>a-type I can get subject to those kinds of paranoias - and it's
>possible I guess too.
I'd hope not. If they're willing to take your money while harboring those
sorts of thoughts, they're people you likely wouldn't have vibed well on in the
first placee.
>My first guess about what is going on is that the beginner class sizes
>have gotten a bit unweildy for them, and there's been a lot of drop out
>at my level so they're not very focussed on the few intermediates.
Could be. These things go in waves. If this wave passes and you don't get
noticed...maybe you can do something to get noticed. I don't know your style,
so I don't really know what that would be.
>I think I'd been holding off doing that because of the whole
>class culture of "work it out yourself". Which is fine - I'm happy to
>work it out myself mostly, but sometimes I also need a bit of external
>reassurance that I am getting somewhere.
I hear you. You can grit your teeth to dust, and you might succeed, but then
you have no teeth left. Just burnout.
>You're right, the gender wouldn't matter to me if I could snag a big
>brother figure of some kind. I think there are some potentials, but
>I'm going to have to work out how to approach it.
When I was coming up through the ranks, tournaments were popular. Show up at a
few and the head instructors got to know you. They'd single you out, and it
felt great. Also, the after-class social stuff is important, and varies by
school. I don't recommend marrying your instructor.
>Yep. I seem to have hit a really big "the more you know, the more you
>realise what you're screwing up" plateau recently and while I know this
>is supposed to be a good sign, I'm finding it disheartening, and I
>think the lack of feedback is exacerbating that.
It *is* a good sign, you know. And get used to it--it only gets worse. People
think a black belt means you're an expert. The only thing you're an expert in
is criticising yourself. "Fuck, chick, I thought you knew how to do a fucking
side kick! What the fuck was that?!" Yes, I know you're not supposed to cuss
on the floor, but if no one else can hear you, does it matter?
>That makes the class sound more negative than it is btw, it's not full
>of 22 year old guys who are angry at their mothers and there has been
>talk about teaching those women that do stick it out some feminine
>fighting styles. Just hasn't come to fruition yet.
That might be a good opening to get discussion going--asking about those and
what "feminine fighting styles" means. Nothing gets positive attention like
asking a guy about his area of expertise. Let those lashes flutter a teensy
bit. Hell, I know it's cheating, but in a perfect world, needs would be met
without having to agonize over how to get them met.
>Anyway, it's partly because I do have that never say die streak that it
>bugs me to hell when I find myself feeling weak and small about it all.
"Weak and small" is where I go when bottoming. I wonder if that is something
you could use to manipulate your own emotions, get yourself revved up. OTOH,
for me, it allowed me to let myself off the hook, after my back got so bad I
couldn't live up to my (incredibly warm, caring, helpful and encouraging)
instructor's hopes. I didn't have to be Black Belt Bitch full-time.
>I think I need to give this place a bit more of a run, and give them
>some feedback too. I can see what you mean about the divorce thing, I
>really love this style and in small cities in Australia it's hard to
>find many alternatives.
I'm betting that your instructor's would be appalled to hear that they'd
neglected you, even if they don't really know what they ought to have
done--like the crying thing, while martial arts people may be perfectly
well-intentioned, they might not have the perception or emotional understanding
to know how to handle things. I think if you give them a chance, they'll rise
to the occasion. I know how *I* feel when a student approaches me with a
problem (I arrange lots of free private training, usually involving lots of
extra time, and the usually brown out because they've got a date, or taken a
job, or whatever teen-age kids do to take time away from the all-important
world of Tae Kwon Do. Oops...this was your rant. I'll do my own later).
>Thank-you so much for all this Lynn, talk about the right thing at the
>right time. Looking at it now I think I did just need a pat on the
>head and a "get yer arse back out there" pep talk, rather than
>somewhere to read people trolling each other about the true nature of
>chi.
"Arse"...now there's a word that's not been found often enough in my
vocabulary. Thanks in return! No, seriously, I'm happy to have helped.
Martial arts are many things to many people, but to all of them at some point,
they can be frustrating as hell. I've done it all, from leaving the mat
because I wanted to not kill someone, to walking off in tears because someone
tried to "help" me. The good people don't make an issue of it, and the great
ones become friends because of it.
Hang in there, and go shopping for a new makiwara.
Lynn
Philip the Foole
Sockermom9 wrote:
> Yah, the honeymoon is over. ;-) The highest dropout rates are at yellow belt
> (2nd kyu) and first brown (9th kyu). in other words, at just-past-beginner and
> almost-there.
Interesting. In the Japanese ranking systems I'm familiar with, "kyu"
(class) ranks start at 10 being the lowest and work up to one being the
highest. Then the dan (degree) ranks start at one and work upward.
I have a theory that one reason that there is a lot of drop-out in the
brown belt ranks is that there really isn't a whole heck of a lot more
to learn. Yeah, I know about the infinite wealth of deep secrets that
are always promised. If you haven't gotten a pretty good grip on a
martial arts system after three years, you aren't paying enough
attention. It is far from a sure bet that the winner of the black belt
division in a tournament will beat the winner of the brown belt division
for the grand championship.
I recommend studying several completely different systems, including
both stand-up fighting and grappling styles. Mixed martial arts
contests are an excellent way to weed out the stuff that doesn't work.
If you haven't tested your skills in the ring against a Western style
boxer, a Thai kickboxer, a jiu-jitsu player and a college wrestler,
you're in for a rude awakening.
I was at an SCA event this afternoon where a female aikidoist was doing
some free-style fencing. Much to everyone's shock, she wristlocked her
opponent with the handguard of her sword and disarmed him.
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
Bricks don't hit back
- Ancient Kung Foole Proverb
Still, don't get your throat in the way of a technique that can snap a
brick.
- Another Ancient Kung Foole Proverb
M Shirley Chong
> Yep. I seem to have hit a really big "the more you know, the more you
> realise what you're screwing up" plateau recently and while I know this
> is supposed to be a good sign, I'm finding it disheartening, and I
> think the lack of feedback is exacerbating that.
Jeri Massey has written a book that is available on her web page
about her training in Tae Kwon Do. She's currently a 4th degree
black belt, I believe--but it didn't come easily for various reasons
she explains in the book. She hit many plateaus along the way and
quite a lot of the book is explaining how she got through them.
I don't do martial arts but I found her book fascinating because
she's a good writer and because I saw many similarities between what
she went through learning TKD and what I went through in learning
how to train dogs and teach people how to train dogs. I think there
is a certain universality about the quest for excellence in any field.
Anyway, you might enjoy this:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tkd-pix/tkd.htm
Shirley
to reply via e-mail remove the trees from my address
Sockermom9
>Interesting. In the Japanese ranking systems I'm familiar with, "kyu"
>(class) ranks start at 10 being the lowest and work up to one being the
>highest. Then the dan (degree) ranks start at one and work upward.
You're right--I was upside down when I wrote that.
>I have a theory that one reason that there is a lot of drop-out in the
>brown belt ranks is that there really isn't a whole heck of a lot more
>to learn.
It sure does seem that way. And doing the same old stuff over and over, and
getting better only in smaller and smaller increments is very frustrating.
> Yeah, I know about the infinite wealth of deep secrets that
>are always promised.
I dunno, TKD is a pretty straightforward style. The only secret I ever wanted
in on was why I was a sucker for a jab, every time. I'd still like to know
that, as a matter of fact.
>I recommend studying several completely different systems, including
>both stand-up fighting and grappling styles.
I do too. And I recommend doing so before you have kids.
>If you haven't tested your skills in the ring against a Western style
>boxer, a Thai kickboxer, a jiu-jitsu player and a college wrestler,
>you're in for a rude awakening.
College wrestlers get me every time. Judo people I could handle, but the
wrestlers are *fast*.
Lynn
Philip the Foole
Sockermom9 wrote:
> College wrestlers get me every time. Judo people I could handle, but the
> wrestlers are *fast*.
Despite doing some wrestling in high school, and having had a fair
amount of success at judo, I was completely stunned the first time I
tried to wrestle a guy from my college's team. He totally whipped my
butt. Unfortunately, he didn't use a real whip.
In "no holds barred" mixed martial arts competition, it is sometimes
possible to score with moves the wrestler is not used to defending
against, such as chokes, arm bars, or leg locks. Their first move will
usually be to drop down to the mat for a single or double leg pickup, so
most judo throws are useless. Don't waste your time trying pins.
I watched a bizarre 1975 demonstration match between famed boxer
Muhammed Ali and Inoko Aoki, a Japanese wrestler. The wrestler dropped
to the mat and stayed there for the entire bout, kicking Ali in the
shins whenever he got close. It was mighty boring, but it demonstrated
that even a guy at the apex of one fighting system can be neutralized by
someone who is fighting a completely different game.
Sockermom9
>Despite doing some wrestling in high school, and having had a fair
>amount of success at judo, I was completely stunned the first time I
>tried to wrestle a guy from my college's team. He totally whipped my
>butt. Unfortunately, he didn't use a real whip.
Aw, poor Phil. ;-)
>In "no holds barred" mixed martial arts competition, it is sometimes
>possible to score with moves the wrestler is not used to defending
>against, such as chokes, arm bars, or leg locks. Their first move will
>usually be to drop down to the mat for a single or double leg pickup, so
>most judo throws are useless. Don't waste your time trying pins.
This sort of thing is also why--or at least one reason why I approve of
studying multiple styles. These days, as soon as I see soemone's a strong
upright fighter (and no one's more upright than TKD people), I'm inside and
getting a grip. Vice versa when I see that they're going to move in for the
takedown. And boxers get kicks to the gut.
>I watched a bizarre 1975 demonstration match between famed boxer
>Muhammed Ali and Inoko Aoki, a Japanese wrestler. The wrestler dropped
>to the mat and stayed there for the entire bout, kicking Ali in the
>shins whenever he got close. It was mighty boring, but it demonstrated
>that even a guy at the apex of one fighting system can be neutralized by
>someone who is fighting a completely different game.
Good fights aren't boring, in the sense that an experiment is never a failure
if you learn something from it.
Lynn
Philip the Foole
Sockermom9 wrote:
> Good fights aren't boring, in the sense that an experiment is never a failure
> if you learn something from it.
The main lesson to be learned from the "fight" between Ali and the
Japanese wrestler is that fixed professional wrestling matches are *way*
more exciting than real ones. The original script called for Ali to
pound the wrestler for a few rounds, and the referee to secretly pass a
piece of razor blade to the wrestler. The wrestler would then make a
small cut on his own forehead, concealed along a "wrinkle line" above
his eyebrow. (This is a standard pro wrestling schtick.) While the ref
was getting ready to declare Ali the winner, the wrestler was supposed
to jump onto Ali's back and take him down, "winning" by treachery and
setting the stage for a profitable rematch.
Unfortunately, Ali got a bout of conscience and announced to the
promoters that he refused to take a dive, so it turned into a genuine
fight. The wrestler was terrified of Ali's lightning-fast "sting like a
bee" jabs, so he stayed flat on the mat throughout the entire fight,
kicking Ali in the shins. It was funny for the first five minutes, but
after 15 rounds it started to wear a tad thin. Anyone watching could
tell instantly that the match wasn't fixed, since a scripted bout would
have been more exciting.
On the bright side, it definitely established that the "drop to the
ground and kick to the legs" defense works against a superior boxer.
Obscure pro wrestling factoid: The next time you're watching a pro
wrestling match on t.v., you can win a sucker bet by "predicting" that
the next arm lock will be applied against the opponent's left arm.
Hmmm. I wonder how much a Bush vs. Sadaam wrestling match would make on
pay-per-view?
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
If you play rough sports, you get a few bruises.
jenner
<fo...@icehouse.net> wrote:
>On the bright side, it definitely established that the "drop to the
>ground and kick to the legs" defense works against a superior boxer.
As long as all the boxer does is box. The thing is, if you are on the
ground, you are no threat to me. So, lay there and scrabble around
like a crab -- I get to back up and walk away. :)
dt king
news:grrf4v8qc37epolg7...@4ax.com...
I love that strategy. Sounds like everybody wins.
dt king
Collared by Miss Heather
Philip the Foole
That's why I used the word "defense," rather than "attack."
But hey, getting a draw against Muhammed Ali isn't *too* bad.
In a previous life I served briefly as Ali's "bodyguard" when he visited
my college campus on a lecture tour. (Like he needed a bodyguard.) He
was a very good-natured, easy-going guy, and I was a huge fan, so I
asked him to throw a "playful" jab at me. I was captain of the school's
karate team, so I *thought* that my reflexes were in reasonably good
shape. I felt the wind from his fist without seeing his hand move. The
Japanese wrestler made a smart move when he stayed out of Ali's fist
range.
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
A kata for every arrangement of the furniture.
Philip the Foole
The "crab" (combined with the jiu-jitsu "guard" posture) is probably the
most effective unarmed defense against a single superior attacker. It
is useless against multiple attackers, since they can bracket you and
kick you in the head. Of course, if you are facing multiple superior
attackers, you're probably out of luck anyway.
Getting this back slightly on-topic, one of my favorite BDSM games is
working with another top to "capture" a "defender." With each of the
attackers controlling one arm and scissoring one leg, I just *love*
pointing out the obvious to our spread-eagled victim: "You seem to be in
a rather weak defensive position." That's my version of "Now I've got
you, my pretty!"
jenner
<fo...@icehouse.net> wrote:
>In a previous life I served briefly as Ali's "bodyguard" when he visited
>my college campus on a lecture tour. (Like he needed a bodyguard.) He
>was a very good-natured, easy-going guy, and I was a huge fan, so I
>asked him to throw a "playful" jab at me. I was captain of the school's
>karate team, so I *thought* that my reflexes were in reasonably good
>shape. I felt the wind from his fist without seeing his hand move. The
>Japanese wrestler made a smart move when he stayed out of Ali's fist
>range.
"Interesting game. The only way to win is not to play [by their
rules]."
BLDRNRpdx
<<"Interesting game. The only way to win is not to play [by their
rules].">>
Didn't Kirk say this in Star Trek II?
Bladerunner
who loves the "if at first you don't succeed, rewrite the rules" approach.
Stephen Harris
> Jenner wrote:
>
> <<"Interesting game. The only way to win is not to play [by their
> rules].">>
>
>
> Didn't Kirk say this in Star Trek II?
I'm not sure if you're joking (in which case I don't get it) but the
quote is from Wargames when the computer teaches itself that a good
pair of players will always draw at tic-tac-toe and then does some
global thermonuclear war scenarioes and learns that both sides will
always lose, so the winning move is to not play.
--
rgds "Pleasure, little treasure"
Stephen,
An Englishman in New York, and loving slave to his Mistress, Tori.
BDSM thoughts, writings, poems and stuff: http://bdsm.spuddy.org/
Abacus
"Stephen Harris" <bd...@spuddy.org> wrote in message
news:s2i92b...@spuddy.org...
> BLDRNRpdx <bldr...@aol.comspamblok> wrote:
> > Jenner wrote:
> >
> > <<"Interesting game. The only way to win is not to play [by their
> > rules].">>
> >
> >
> > Didn't Kirk say this in Star Trek II?
>
> I'm not sure if you're joking (in which case I don't get it) but the
> quote is from Wargames when the computer teaches itself that a good
> pair of players will always draw at tic-tac-toe and then does some
> global thermonuclear war scenarioes and learns that both sides will
> always lose, so the winning move is to not play.
>
> --
test as a cadet. When he was accused of having cheated, he said something to
the effect of "I altered the rules of the game" or some such. It's been a
while since I've seen it. Same theory as War Games though.
jenner
wrote:
>Jenner wrote:
>
><<"Interesting game. The only way to win is not to play [by their
>rules].">>
>
>
>Didn't Kirk say this in Star Trek II?
"How about a nice game of chess?"
Think War Games and Kirk's survival philosophy.
Stephen Harris
> Unless she was referring to when Kirk took the Kobyasi Maru no-win scenario
> test as a cadet. When he was accused of having cheated, he said something to
> the effect of "I altered the rules of the game" or some such. It's been a
(from memory) "I don't believe in the no-win situation"
> while since I've seen it. Same theory as War Games though.
Not really; Wargames is about the futility of a game no one can win; the
Kirk bit was about thinking "outside of the box" and winning under any
circumstance. Kirk's attitude is that which helped lead to the nuclear
escalation we see ("we can win!"); the computer saw the futility of this.
BLDRNRpdx
<<"Interesting game. The only way to win is not to play [by their
> > rules].">>
To which I'd replied:
> > Didn't Kirk say this in Star Trek II?
And Stephen wrote:
> I'm not sure if you're joking (in which case I don't get it) but the
> quote is from Wargames
And Abacus noted:
<<Unless she was referring to when Kirk took the Kobyasi Maru no-win scenario
test as a cadet. >>
I was referring to that scene, and it was meant as kidding. Turns out the
reference wasn't as appropriate as I'd thought. Still, I liked the idea of not
only dealing with a given set of rules creatively, but re-framing the game
entirely.
Bladerunner
SSBB Diplomatic Corps: portland, or
Bobking57
Tis I again, after much prolonged absence.
(assuming anyone remembers, of course)
This minds me of a theatre colleague who thought it would be fun to spar with
buttoned foils - and no face guards.
He wasn't willing to change his mind after I'd twice batted his lunge aside and
placed the button within an inch of his eye - twice.
His observation was "I wasn't supposed to do that."
Had we had proper gear, I'd have been more than happy to show him a few more
things one isn't "supposed" to do with a car antenna. :>
I also remember the look on my Sifu's face when he handed me a rubber knife and
told me to defend myself with it. (He also armed himself with a rubber k-bar.
)Ordinarily he could, if he chose, wipe the floor with me without even
sweating.
After three passes he had not touched me with anything resembling a disabling
blow or a proper kinfe stricke - while I'd disabled him twice and gotten an
outright kill in exchange for what I suspect would have been cracked ribs I
would have noticed after the fact.
We never sparred with knives again, and that was approximately the time I
realized I'd learned all he had to teach me - alhtough there were plenty of
sets left to learn. :>
Bobking57
>wanted
>in on was why I was a sucker for a jab, every time. I'd still like to know
>that, as a matter of fact.
I think TKD keys off the shoulders as the "tell" for a move - shoulders and
hips are most common. The style I was taught told you to look for breath
patterns; look at the stomach.
And then of course we learned to hide the tells - or use the tels to send
exactly the wrong message. :>
Generally, I found that if I could avoid dropping the shoulder prior to
launching the jab, it would get thru. This robs power, of course, but it's
usually the setup for a more powerful blow.
In fact, we learned how to jelly alcohol and started to learn how to cover our
hands with it and ignite it in combat as a tactic.
Sometimes it's best that the jab IS blocked - and if you see a great big
flaming fist coming at you, for SURE you WILL block it. :)
Pesonally, though, I found it a silly stunt, useful only to duellists.
Philip the Foole
> We never sparred with knives again, and that was approximately the time I
> sets left to learn. :>
Practice "knife defense" against an opponent armed with a piece of white
chalk. It is quite a sobering experience to look at one's previously
black uniform afterward.
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
Aikido Master (loudly, to class of magic/rainbow/crystal/healing types):
Brush by. Blend with opponent's ki.
(very softly, to crash test dummy Foole, giving barely perceptible
elbow pulse to ribs during entry.) You understand "Brush by?"
Bobking57
I've not done that, but I've had a couple of experinces practicing Chi
techniques against a senior student - with each of us counting the number of
little bruses and trying to recall how the hell they'd occured.
<Brush by. Blend with opponent's ki.
(very softly, to crash test dummy Foole, giving barely perceptible
elbow pulse to ribs during entry.) You understand "Brush by?">
<snickerfit> Yep. Alas, that was the one move I never mastered that I truly
envied. Sifu did the same thing "brushing by" with his shoulder. Made you feel
as if yo'd suddenly run head-on into a concrete pole and fallen on your ass for
no reason whatsoever. Looked like that too. :)
Philip the Foole
>
> I can just imagine.
>
> I've not done that, but I've had a couple of experinces practicing Chi
> techniques against a senior student - with each of us counting the number of
>
> <Brush by. Blend with opponent's ki.
> (very softly, to crash test dummy Foole, giving barely perceptible
> elbow pulse to ribs during entry.) You understand "Brush by?">
>
> <snickerfit> Yep. Alas, that was the one move I never mastered that I truly
> envied. Sifu did the same thing "brushing by" with his shoulder. Made you feel
> no reason whatsoever. Looked like that too. :)
The "elbow pulse" is a fascinating move. If you perceive it at all, it
looks like a spastic twitch, perhaps something that might be used to
dislodge a mosquito. But holy guacamole, does it ever enhance a "brush
by." Perfect for dropping someone in a crowd without any witnesses
seeing what happened. "Someone call an ambulance. This poor guy is
having a seizure!"
I was practicing with a professional "No Holds Barred" fighter last
night. *Very* sculptured, hunky dude. My polar opposite. He was
teaching me a variation on the "heel hook" which is a jiu-jitsu
grappling attack where you squeeze the opponent's leg between your
knees, trap the top of his foot under your armpit and lever your forearm
up against his heel, applying pressure to the knee and hip joints. He
said "sorry about my foot in your crotch." Heh, heh.
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
Sergeant: Right. Now, self-defense. Tonight I shall be carrying on
from where we got to last week when I was showing you how to defend
yourselves against anyone who attacks you with armed with a piece of
fresh fruit. ... Now you, come at me with this banana. Catch! Now,
it's quite simple to defend yourself against a man armed with a
banana. First of all you force him to drop the banana.
Then, second, you eat the banana, thus disarming him.
You have now rendered him helpless.
Student: Suppose he's got a bunch?
- Ancient Kung Foole Proverb by Monty Python
PyrateGrrl
>I was at an SCA event this afternoon where a female aikidoist was
doing
>some free-style fencing. Much to everyone's shock, she wristlocked
her
>opponent with the handguard of her sword and disarmed him.
*G* I discovered last year, during a weekend long stage combat
seminar,
there is a set of *period* techniques from the Italian fencing master
Marozzo, that have several grappling, disarm and defense moves
that *strongly* resemble aikido.
Not saying that *was* what she was doing , *G* but that the techniques
do exist in that context.
(the geometry of the human body being the same in both Italy and
Japan)
as in: "gee, this arm wrapping move seems *familiar* somehow...hey!"
Search "Marozzo" on google for more info then i could possibly give
you here.
It gave me a good giggle during a long weekend of learning
the fine art of "pretending to beat the crap out of people"
-PG
who is jonesing badly for resuming aikido after a 2 year break.
Philip the Foole
PyrateGrrl wrote:
> *G* I discovered last year, during a weekend long stage combat
> seminar,
> there is a set of *period* techniques from the Italian fencing master
> Marozzo, that have several grappling, disarm and defense moves
> that *strongly* resemble aikido.
>
> Not saying that *was* what she was doing , *G* but that the techniques
> do exist in that context.
> (the geometry of the human body being the same in both Italy and
> Japan)
>
> as in: "gee, this arm wrapping move seems *familiar* somehow...hey!"
> Search "Marozzo" on google for more info then i could possibly give
> you here.
>
> It gave me a good giggle during a long weekend of learning
> the fine art of "pretending to beat the crap out of people"
>
> -PG
> who is jonesing badly for resuming aikido after a 2 year break.
I spoke with the SCA aikido/fencer after her match. There are
apparently "Western Martial Arts" workshops which teach a combination of
fencing and combat grappling techniques. As PyrateGrrl points out, the
geometry of the human body ensures that martial arts in different parts
of the world are going to end up with many similar techniques.
The problem with theatrical combat is that the techniques have to be
dramatic and clear to the audience. The actors have to slow down and
grossly exaggerate moves that would be a blur in a real duel.
I've been impressed with the effectiveness of some of the grappling
techniques that are emerging from "No Holds Barred" fighting contests
like the Universal Fighting Championships, particularly the Brazilian
jiu-jitsu style popularized by the Gracie family. Many of these
techniques also have "bedroom wrestling" applications, of course.
Here's a website with some instructional photos:
<http://bjj.org/techniques/>
I met one of the Gracie brothers at a tournament once. His leg was in a
cast, and he was on crutches. I thought "Oh boy, this is going to be an
exciting story." I asked him what had happened. He said "I was in a
dance club and I slipped on an ice cube."
Metal.Fem
<meta...@webone.com.au> wrote:
[..a wail about martial arts training that people responded to really
helpfully..]
I went and talked to the owner of the school before the next class
after reading Sockermom's legendary advice. He was really good about
it.
He explained some issues they were having with instructor skill and
reassured me that he was still watching my progress.
He must have spoken to the instructors in the intervening period
because those of us in the in between stage were pulled aside to a
separate group and we had the best class we had in a while.
We got direct feedback about where we were, and what we needed to work
on. We also got put through our paces something fierce (bloody slow
pushups, lucky I'm already a masochist).
The improvement in class content has stuck too over the last few
weeks. It's been tough and challenging and encouraging.
I wrote the school owner a mail a few days ago saying thanks for
taking it on board, and he wrote back a nice email saying that the
feedback is very useful to them. Normally that might sound like the
usual pat answer, but having seen the improvement, it clearly was
useful to them.
Also, that one woman in the more advanced class I mentioned really
helped me out with push hands the other night. All in all, a great
outcome.
Cheers
MetalFem
Sockermom9
>The improvement in class content has stuck too over the last few
>weeks. It's been tough and challenging and encouraging.
<bunches of stuff snipped, above is just a random selection summarizing the
overall theme>
I'm glad. It's cool when it works (and sucks massively when it doesn't). Keep
it up and you can come up and undress Philip next time he comes to visit.
Lynn
Philip the Foole
Lynn is just bragging because she managed to remove my suspenders and
wristwatch while we were sparring.
Hey! Where's my wallet??!!
Sockermom9
>Lynn is just bragging because she managed to remove my suspenders and
>wristwatch while we were sparring.
I'd hae much preferred to actually hit him, but, alas, that was not to be, so I
settled for undressing him before leaving a divot in the floor with my butt.
Lynn
Metal.Fem
<socke...@aol.comm> wrote:
I'm jealous anyway of course :)
Ever since jenner posted that "do I get a bat" story I've been
pondering the possibilities, and finding another switch for some mutual
beating up has moved to the top of my "what next" list.
Cheers
MetalFem