Question about Resistance Play in Rope Bondage
Molly B
Googling efforts haven't produced much.
Simply put: How do you know when to give in when you're
doing resistance play? (Or, when do you want someone to give
in?)
When I play as a spanko bottom, I'm just co-operative, and I
don't resist. Oh sure, there might be squirming and stuff,
but it's because I'm trying to take it rather than trying to
get away or fight it.
Being tied up is a much newer delight and (maybe because I
do it with a non-spanko) it seems to take a different set of
skills. Anyway, when I play with my bondage partner, we
enjoy playing with more of a seemingly adversarial
relationship (e.g., bad man ties up innocent me and
discovers I'm really a wanton slut who enjoys it).
I am strong, but I have no doubt he could overpower me if it
came to it. Obviously, this isn't supposed to be a fight to
the death, and I want him to have enough strength left to
finish the ties and to molest me. So is there a way to know
when to back off a little? Or do you just play it by ear (as
I've been doing fairly successfully) and see what happens?
Or do you resist for a while, give in for some stuff, and
then resist again?
I'm a novice at this kind of play, playing with someone with
a lot of experience and skill. Sometimes I feel that I'm
being selfish as a bottom ("wow, someone is bothering to do
all this stuff to *me*") and I want to make sure it's fun
for him, too. Evidence and direct inquiry so far would
indicate it is, but I thought I'd ask for pointers from
people who also play this way.
Thanks.
Molly B
Philip the Foole
My first high-school girlfriend was a fellow judo enthusiast. We used
to stay after class to practice a little extra-curricular "matwork."
(Those long judo belts are great for bondage.) This early experience
gave me a life-long fetish for the combination of BDSM with martial arts.
I've been teaching a workshop on "Erotic Takedowns" for the past couple
of years in a fun, hands-on audience-participation format. I show the
students some basic "bedroom wrestling" techniques derived from judo,
aikido, tai chi and wrestling. I've gotten to see what works and what
doesn't work in this sort of game with many different sorts of
"attackers" and "defenders."
Realistically, it is almost impossible to subdue and tie up a genuinely
resisting opponent without injuring them (or being injured by them)
unless one has *vastly* superior size and strength and/or martial arts
skills. We often end up needing three or four tops to take down and
subdue a feisty bottom so that we can have our wicked way with them. I
don't usually have much difficulty recruiting volunteers for either the
top or bottom roles.
There is no "One True Way" to do any of this stuff. The "One True Way"
is whatever works best for a particular individual and their partner(s.)
It sounds like your are both enjoying your style of resistance play, so
have fun!
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
In case anyone is going to be in the neighborhood, I'll be presenting my
"Erotic Takedowns" workshop at "In the Woods," an outdoor BDSM event
hosted by the Triskeli Guild in Bellingham Washington on the weekend of
July 23rd.
http://itw.triskeli.org/home.shtml
Janet Hardy
resisting, you know I'm consenting." Therefore, the converse is true:
stop resisting when it stops being fun. This behind-the-looking-glass
logic works amazingly well for any kind of resistance play, IME.
Janet
--
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"A smart, irreverent, hilarious and playful manual that covers all the
dilemmas those other dating books never get around to" - Josey Vogels,
sex and relationship columnist. At your favorite bookstore, on-line
bookseller or at http://www.greenerypress.com .
Sockermom9
>The best rule I know for resistance play is Dossie's: "Anytime I'm
>resisting, you know I'm consenting." Therefore, the converse is true:
>stop resisting when it stops being fun. This behind-the-looking-glass
>logic works amazingly well for any kind of resistance play, IME.
How does one "give in" in that method? In anything like resistance play, I'd
have to hold back tremendously, and gauge when my partner had had enough. How
does one let a partner win, finally, without sending the message that you're no
longer consenting?
Lynn
Morgane
Molly B <mol...@newsguy.com> wrote in article
<cc76g...@news1.newsguy.com>...
> I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but my
> Googling efforts haven't produced much.
Thanks for googling first : )
> Simply put: How do you know when to give in when you're
> doing resistance play? (Or, when do you want someone to give
> in?)
I don't want anyone giving in. In fact, the people who I play this with usually
have a deal that as long as they resist, -I'll pursue. This keeps them from
feeling rejected when they're thinking of fighting me off. It gives some
measure of control in terms of intensity too.
> I am strong, but I have no doubt he could overpower me if it
> came to it. Obviously, this isn't supposed to be a fight to
> the death, and I want him to have enough strength left to
> finish the ties and to molest me. So is there a way to know
> when to back off a little?
If you partner is suffering exaustion, damage, or more likely dissipated
resolve, it's more than OK to slow down a bit.
>Or do you just play it by ear (as
> I've been doing fairly successfully) and see what happens?
> Or do you resist for a while, give in for some stuff, and
> then resist again?
Not that I've given a lot of thought to alternative systems, but playing it by
ear seems to work best (for me at least). If I'm not getting enough struggle,
I'll threaten my partner with something they won't like, so they'll struggle
more. Always the treat is something outside the range of the current scene, so
that there's an interval of calm before I can actually carry out the theat. The
real purpose pf the treat is letting my partner know that I'm OK for more
struggle, never to punish my partner for not pleasing me. If you can agree on
taunts being permitted, this is the communications fastlane.
> I'm a novice at this kind of play, playing with someone with
> a lot of experience and skill.
Lucky. Resisted rope bondage is difficult to do as a top. Safely even. Hats off
to you two.
>Sometimes I feel that I'm
> being selfish as a bottom ("wow, someone is bothering to do
> all this stuff to *me*")
No trouble at all : ) My guess is your partner loves doing this too.
>and I want to make sure it's fun
> for him, too. Evidence and direct inquiry so far would
> indicate it is, but I thought I'd ask for pointers from
> people who also play this way.
>
> Thanks.
You're quite welcome. This is an opportunity to examine a something that's
given me so much enjoyment.
Morgane
--
Handmade Rope:
http://members.rogers.com/ziamorg/
Binder
> I am strong, but I have no doubt he could overpower me if it
> came to it. Obviously, this isn't supposed to be a fight to
> the death, and I want him to have enough strength left to
> finish the ties and to molest me. So is there a way to know
> when to back off a little? Or do you just play it by ear (as
> I've been doing fairly successfully) and see what happens?
> Or do you resist for a while, give in for some stuff, and
> then resist again?
What works for me is that I don't rely on strength alone to overpoewr
someone... now that might not work for you or your top. Part of it is
simple cunning, like using my weight (all 180 pounds of it), and part of
it is knowing where a finger poke or pinch can bring my "adversary" to
her knees.
The nice thing about pressure point play is that it is extremely
effective without requiring a great deal of strength. The downside is
that it isn't a particularly pleasant sensation, according to a majority
of my previous play partners.
It is pretty easy to learn the where and how hard of it, as there are
hundreds of tender points on any given body. Two of the easiest ones are
the inner arm, about halfway between elbow and armpit, and about the
same spot on the inner thigh.
As to when the bottom should back off a bit? I'm reluctant to say so,
but I think that's something the top should manage. That may be a small
area of distaste for topping from the bottom (I'm usually much in favor
of communication from my bottoms) but more I suspect due to my
particular frailties, like the bilateral knee damage, thoracic outlet
syndrome, and carpal tunnel. I have less endurance than most, and I'm a
little bit impatient, as a rule. Not a good rule, mind.
Binder
--
LLEBOOTHSLG
remove my TAILS to email me
Whips, Quirts, Etc http://www.madplaiter.com
forked tongue
There is more than one kind of resistance. Say it take 10 pounds of force to put
your arms to where they can be bound. All day you can hold 15 pounds resistance.
You decide you would like your arms bound so you only apply 9 pounds of
resistance, and your arms get bound. If you intend to safeword, you go totally
limp. Very obvious.
Janet Hardy
Could be a problem for someone like you, who's genuinely capable of
winning whenever she wants to, I guess -- you'd have to start with a
handicap (multiple tops, some bondage going in, something like that).
For someone like me, that's not so much of a problem -- most of the
people I bottom to are more than capable of taking me down when they
want/need to, either by purely overpowering me, or simply by hurting me
enough to convince me that I don't need to resist any more right now.
Sockermom9
>Could be a problem for someone like you, who's genuinely capable of
>winning whenever she wants to, I guess
Actually, most of the sure-fire techniques I teach in self-defense classes are
so brutal that I'd never considering using them on anyone I know. It just
sucks when old friend-of-the-family gets gropy while in his cups and winds up
with no eyeballs left.
I think the idea that I had when I asked was that not every top is up to
"really" fighting. There are issues of physical size and ability, but also
health and fitness. I don't necessarily think that a little rough-and-tumble
should be ruled out for them, but if the rule is "I'll signal non-consent by
not resisting", a bottom could mistakenly signal non-consent by making
allowances for, say, their top's obvious fatigue. (I almost wrote "tiredness",
which should show *my* obvious fatigue. <g>)
I dunno. Just a thought.
Lynn
JK
> I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but my
> Googling efforts haven't produced much.
Only a few people here get all in a tizzy for things posted more than
once here and even fewer get all angry and break their keyboards and
throw a fit if you haven't looked up to see what's in the archive.
Yea, like anyone who is on SSBB has always been there since the
beginning and that ssbb takes on new 'members (those they can accept
and tolerate)' every now and then. LOL
>
> Simply put: How do you know when to give in when you're
> doing resistance play? (Or, when do you want someone to give
> in?)
First you should discuss these things before you do your scene like
what you should do, what's best, what works for you and for your
partner, what's ok, what it all means when you get to this point of
deciding, what you need to stop the resistance and to give in. If you
don't do that then you should do this discussion after your scene.
>
> When I play as a spanko bottom, I'm just co-operative, and I
> don't resist. Oh sure, there might be squirming and stuff,
> but it's because I'm trying to take it rather than trying to
> get away or fight it.
I've had some spanko bottoms that love to squirm and stuff - it's what
they need to do to get to the next step of the scene, their subspace
stage. That may be the true of you as well. So if that is then just
let that phase you go through get you to that next step. Take as long
as you need to before you naturally stop resisting.
>
> I am strong, but I have no doubt he could overpower me if it
> came to it. Obviously, this isn't supposed to be a fight to
> the death, and I want him to have enough strength left to
> finish the ties and to molest me. So is there a way to know
> when to back off a little? Or do you just play it by ear (as
> I've been doing fairly successfully) and see what happens?
You play it by ear and let your participation and the joining of the
exchange between you ride the course and see where it takes you.
> Or do you resist for a while, give in for some stuff, and
> then resist again?
You do what works for you. Try some variations if you wish. No problem
with doing that.
>
> I'm a novice at this kind of play, playing with someone with
> a lot of experience and skill.
Good to hear. So ask your partner what others have done, but keep in
mind that this is also your scene and you may react differently so see
what it is you do as you progress through the scene and stop worrying
about what is right or wrong or best or worst or so much of whether or
not you should be doing what others typically do in such a scene. The
scene is between the two of you. You both have to see what works. Fine
to see what others do. Fine to try those variations. Don't be afraid
tho to try it your way or to develop your way.
Sometimes I feel that I'm
> being selfish as a bottom
Most bottoms are selfish and most Tops like that - gives them more to
do, more to learn what to do, more to manage, more to play with. It's
also a part of the increasing levels of the power exchange that happen
as a scene progresses. Be selfish. You push in your scene. You'll find
the ride will get better and better.
JK
Molly B
appreciate it. My short silence doesn't mean I've been
ignoring replies; it means I've been thinking them over (and
also thinking I need to get an air conditioner for this
way-too-hot office that I can't work in for very long
without trying to remember signs of heat stroke). Thinking
over your responses has helped me clarify some things for
myself.
You've helped me figure out that my question had to do with
how to reconcile "real resistance" with "play resistance"
(as in, yes, I'm really using my strength to fend off my play
partner, but no I'm not really always fighting absolutely as
hard as I can, and I'd really definitely stop before I
injured him [or her, should the case arise]). "Real" and
"play" tend to keep blending. It also made me see I need
a sort of sliding scale of giving in rather than a fight or
not-fight model.
So I like Janet's
suggestion about resistance equalling consent and
non-resistance signalling withdrawal of that consent. And I
will definitely tell my play partner that as long as I'm
resisting, I'm consenting. But I need to tweak the converse
a little because I might back off enough to allow my hands
to be tied, for instance, and I'd still be consenting (and
admittedly still resisting a little). And I
might only put up token (or no) resistance to an interlude
of being molested. But then I might want to fight again
for whatever comes next. I haven't played with an
all-or-nothing take-down yet; so far, it's been more of
conceding by inches, with resistance minimal at times. I
want to be able to fight for a while, give an inch, fight
some more, give that next inch, etc. I want to be seduced by
force and rope rather than just subdued once and for all.
When I started thinking about the ways I've played with rope
bondage ("oh, so what I do is called 'resistance play'") it
occurred to me that one thing I might try to do in order to
get good at it was to try to make consciously available the
clues for "giving in." I don't know what I was expecting to
hear -- "just wait for that particular glint in your
partner's eye and then abandon all fight"? In any case, the
replies and discussions have been interesting and helpful to me.
So thanks for the various reassurances, descriptions of
alternative ways of playing, etc. I'll let you know how it
all tests out. With any luck, while Philip is running his
take-down workshop, I'll be on the other side of the
continent, all tied up.
Molly B
And Morgane, not only do I Google, but I even read the FAQ
before posting because that's just the sort of geek I am.
Morgane
Molly B <mol...@newsguy.com> wrote in article
<ccd39...@news1.newsguy.com>...
> Thanks to everyone who has replied to my question. I really
> appreciate it. My short silence doesn't mean I've been
> ignoring replies; it means I've been thinking them over
I should try thinking things over before I post sometime.
> So I like Janet's
> suggestion about resistance equalling consent and
> non-resistance signalling withdrawal of that consent. And I
> will definitely tell my play partner that as long as I'm
> resisting, I'm consenting.
I'd ordinarily be concerned about ceasing resistance as withdrawal of consent,
because of my past experiences where my partners would use this as a signal for
the other stuff. Unfortunately, my local scene is kind of odd about
Force/Resistance, and so there really isn't many people to talk about it with.
So this makes most of my discussion here firsthand instead of representing an
experience pool.
> When I started thinking about the ways I've played with rope
> bondage ("oh, so what I do is called 'resistance play'") it
> occurred to me that one thing I might try to do in order to
> get good at it was to try to make consciously available the
> clues for "giving in." I don't know what I was expecting to
> hear -- "just wait for that particular glint in your
> partner's eye and then abandon all fight"? In any case, the
> replies and discussions have been interesting and helpful to me.
It's possible to non-verbally flirt even while resisting or running away, and
if you've got a familiar Top/Dominant you probably know what they want to do
before they do. There are little ways that I'll touch someone that I play like
this to say that I wouldn't mind if she was 'uncooperative' too.
> So thanks for the various reassurances, descriptions of
> alternative ways of playing, etc. I'll let you know how it
> all tests out. With any luck, while Philip is running his
> take-down workshop, I'll be on the other side of the
> continent, all tied up.
Words cannot describe how much I'd like to go to that workshop.
> And Morgane, not only do I Google, but I even read the FAQ
> before posting because that's just the sort of geek I am.
Takes one to know one ; ) Thanks for not being this week's moron who asks about
the health effects of regular caning *while its still an active thread*
Morgane
Morgane
Sockermom9 <socke...@aol.comm> wrote in article
<20040705131917...@mb-m21.aol.com>...
> Janet writes:
>
> >Could be a problem for someone like you, who's genuinely capable of
> >winning whenever she wants to, I guess
>
> Actually, most of the sure-fire techniques I teach in self-defense classes
are
> so brutal that I'd never considering using them on anyone I know. It just
> sucks when old friend-of-the-family gets gropy while in his cups and winds up
> with no eyeballs left.
Believe it or not, there is a martial art just for this occasion. Chinese, of
course. It's like anti-domestic violence fu. I was lucky enough to be taught
some of the movements.
There are no strikes, few throws, and a lot of standing holds. The story was
that in old times, a scholar designed the style to permit martial artists to
defend themselves without hurting their loved ones. Nowadays, most martial arts
are designed for a variety of purposes, rather than just for knocking guys off
horses or something. Still, It's nice not having to knock 'Uncle Felix' out. I
just wish it was more rope-compatible.
Morgane
Philip the Foole
> Molly B wrote:
>>So thanks for the various reassurances, descriptions of
>>alternative ways of playing, etc. I'll let you know how it
>>all tests out. With any luck, while Philip is running his
>>take-down workshop, I'll be on the other side of the
>>continent, all tied up.
>
>
> Words cannot describe how much I'd like to go to that workshop.
Aw, thanks for the kind words. I wish that Professor Spectrum would
hurry up and get that darned teleport beam working so that we could all
get together for events like this.
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
Philip the Foole's "Erotic Takedowns" workshop at "In the Woods" is
sponsored by the Triskeli Guild of Bellingham, Washington.
For more information, http://itw.triskeli.org/home.shtml
Sockermom9
>Believe it or not, there is a martial art just for this occasion. Chinese, of
>course.
>The story was
>that in old times, a scholar designed the style to permit martial artists to
>defend themselves without hurting their loved ones.
That's what I was looking for when I started JuJitsu. Silly me. Rather than
having to splat someone really hard to make them stop whatever they were doing
that I didn't like, now I learned to break necks, choke people, and pile-drivet
them into the ground. Oh yes, *much* gentler.
Lynn
Binder
What occurs to me might not be sensible... but even a Kung Fu master
must have some weakness(es.) Like stun guns or something.
On the face of it, that seems like overkill. Even to me, Mr.
Use-No-More-Force-Than-Needed. So, if I were fortunate to be offered
playtime with Lynn, or someone like her, I'd be looking for ways to
minimize here skills while maximizing mine.
A lasso, for instance. Of course, that would require I know how to use
one. But it would accomplish two of the major goals: staying as far away
as possible until she's immobilized, and immobilizing her well enough to
keep my skin and bones intact.
Starship
That sounds like the kind of thing I watch on Thursday nights. Are you
sure you didn't accidently wind up in a pro wrestling class?
--
Starship
He which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
Sockermom9
> That's what I was looking for too when I took up Hakkoryu
>JuJutsu. I found out that they don't call it the 'arts of gentleness'
>(or however you care to translate it) for nothing. They call it that
>because they have a cosmic sense of humor.
I always thought that judo players were joking when they called themselves
that; "players". If that's play, then we really need to recalibrate things.
Roughest damn play I've ever seen.
Lynn
Sockermom9
>A lasso, for instance. Of course, that would require I know how to use
>one. But it would accomplish two of the major goals: staying as far away
>as possible until she's immobilized, and immobilizing her well enough to
>keep my skin and bones intact.
You know what? Lassos (lariats) are fucking hard. You'd probably be good at
it--it's a finger-intensive skill.
>What occurs to me might not be sensible... but even a Kung Fu master
>must have some weakness(es.) Like stun guns or something.
My big weakness is very simple. I see rope, I go all weak in the knees.
Lynn
raptu...@aol.com
> The best rule I know for resistance play is Dossie's: "Anytime I'm
> resisting, you know I'm consenting." Therefore, the converse is true:
> stop resisting when it stops being fun. This behind-the-looking-glass
> logic works amazingly well for any kind of resistance play, IME.
>
> Janet
I can see the logic of that, to a degree. But then, how do you know
the difference between resistance-->surrender versus resistance-->not
fun any more? I count on knowing the difference when I see it, but I
can also imagine leaving some very frustrated bottoms if I processed
surrender as non-consent.
As far as the original poster's question, it's important not to leave
the top too tired out! I vividly remember co-topping an exhaustive
take-down scene that took *hours* to subdue the bottom. By the time
the bottom was compliant I was drained (not to mention a little
bruised and battered) and had little interest in fucking hir.
Personally, I don't like trying to take people down whom I'm clear
that I can't take down (because their fitter, stronger, bigger,
whatever.) It's also not as much fun to take people down that are no
challenge. I'm like goldilocks with her three take-down bottoms...
there's too hard, too easy and just right. :)
bum...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>The best rule I know for resistance play is Dossie's: "Anytime I'm
>resisting, you know I'm consenting." Therefore, the converse is true:
>stop resisting when it stops being fun. This behind-the-looking-glass
>logic works amazingly well for any kind of resistance play, IME.
I just realized it works with me. A certain TopBRAAAATTT of my
acquaintance, on the rare occasions when he switches, loudly mouths
off and refuses to submit while putting himself over my lap. In other
words, he resists verbally while cooperating physically. Since he's
several inches taller than me and quite a bit stronger (and since
we've been doing this for a couple of years), I know that "loud
refusals to be spanked plus laying down over my lap" means that he
wants a spanking. I also know that, when he quits saying outrageous
things to provoke me, he's had enough.
Resistance is fun. It also doesn't have to be physical -- it just has
to be clearly part of the play and you and your partner need to have
communicated well enough to know what it means. :-)
"There is no point in acting like a brat when
there is no one to spank you." -- tyr
Reply to this address; mail sent to the address in
From: will disappear into a black hole. :)
Janet Hardy
raptu...@aol.com wrote:
> Janet Hardy <ver...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<78eb5759c2a4446c...@news.teranews.com>...
>
>>The best rule I know for resistance play is Dossie's: "Anytime I'm
>>resisting, you know I'm consenting." Therefore, the converse is true:
>>stop resisting when it stops being fun. This behind-the-looking-glass
>>logic works amazingly well for any kind of resistance play, IME.
>
> I can see the logic of that, to a degree. But then, how do you know
> the difference between resistance-->surrender versus resistance-->not
> fun any more?
When it's not fun any more, you *stop* resisting -- that's how you
signal "not fun any more." Otherwise, the system doesn't work. If you
can't do that, you shouldn't play using this system.
LususNaturae
>That sounds like the kind of thing I watch on Thursday nights. Are you
>sure you didn't accidently wind up in a pro wrestling class?
No, in pro wrestling they are careful, not only to not harm each
other, but also to not hurt each other. Lynn's descriptions of
her jujitsu practice sessions always sound like they hurt...a
lot!
--
Lusus Naturae
Sockermom9
>That sounds like the kind of thing I watch on Thursday nights. Are you
>sure you didn't accidently wind up in a pro wrestling class?
Most of the techniques I've seen (in the three or four minutes I can stand to
watch) in pro wrestling have been straight out of the jujitsu lists. The
competition in pro wrestling is faked, but those guys have some ok technique.
Lynn
Sockermom9
>No, in pro wrestling they are careful, not only to not harm each
>other, but also to not hurt each other. Lynn's descriptions of
>her jujitsu practice sessions always sound like they hurt...a
>lot!
Well, there's hurt and then there's hurt. Like, taking a breakfall from eight
feet in the air hurts, but it's a kind of background hurt that you kind of set
your mind to ignore. (I'll grant that having a nice bouncy platform under the
mat would be nice.) Doing kata, or form practice, we do pretty much the same
stuff that the pro wrestlers do, without the shouting and barnyard-strutting.
And, the pain in sparring is a good thing--it really motivates one to work on
up that learning curve (which, of course, qualifies one to spar against better
people, who can hit one harder and more effectively, so it's a double-edged
sword).
You want pain? Try teaching a beginner yubi tori--a fingerlock. "Ouch!
<patpat> That was good...do it again." Now *that's masochism.
Lynn
Starship
Wrestlers may do no harm (Ideally, anyway. Accidents do happen.), but
there's no nonpainful way for a 300 lb man to jump off the top of a 15
foot steel cage onto another man laying on the ground outside the ring,
even if there is a thick pad on the floor. Some of the things that look
really painful - the "agonizing" submission holds for example - don't
hurt at all. But some of the things they do - like being hit in the head
by a board wrapped with barbed wire - really do hurt.
LususNaturae
>You want pain? Try teaching a beginner yubi tori--a fingerlock. "Ouch!
><patpat> That was good...do it again." Now *that's masochism.
Er...Me? Want pain? Oh, no no no, I'm sure I never said so.
Why...that's *masochism*!
--
Lusus Naturae
LususNaturae
>The
>competition in pro wrestling is faked, but those guys have some ok technique.
Yeah, they'd better have if they don't want to get hurt.
--
Lusus Naturae
Philip the Foole
> Before pro wrestling became all show and there was still real
> competition, the truly crippling, joint tearing holds were known as
> 'hooks'. I wonder if it's of any interest to you that you could
> truly, as many of the best pros did, claim the sobriquet of "hooker".
>
> Regards,
> O J
Of possible additional historical interest to martial arts geeks:
In the old days, a carnival "catch-as-catch-can" wrestler would take on
all challengers from the audience. Since there was always money on the
line in these matches, it was important for the pro to develop "hooks"
to ensure that he did not lose very often.
One such traveling carnival wrestler was a highly-ranked Japanese judo
man named Mitsuyo Maeda, who went by the professional name of "Count
Comde." (a Spanish/Japanese play on the words for "combat" and
"trouble.")
The Count eventually made his way to Brazil, just before World War I,
where he befriended a prominent land-owner and politician of Scottish
descent named Gastao Gracie. Maeda taught his fighting techniques to
Gracie's oldest son Carlos. Carlos Gracie opened his own jujitsu school
in 1925, founding the "Gracie Jiujitsu" dynasty, which has been a
dominant force in free-style fighting championships for decades.
(from Renzo Gracie, "Mastering Jujitsu")
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
A kata for every arrangement of the furniture.
- Ancient Kung Foole Proverb
Sockermom9
> Before pro wrestling became all show and there was still real
>competition, the truly crippling, joint tearing holds were known as
>'hooks'. I wonder if it's of any interest to you that you could
>truly, as many of the best pros did, claim the sobriquet of "hooker".
OK, so here I am; it's a million o'clock and I'm bushed. And then I read this.
Warm milk, all over the monitor. Hey, thanks, OJ. I *will* get you for this.
Lynn
dr. leopold
>You want pain? Try teaching a beginner yubi tori--a fingerlock. "Ouch!
><patpat> That was good...do it again." Now *that's masochism.
Oh. my. god. Those hot summer afternoons in the aikido dojo. My partner
was dumb. Thick as shit. A native Japanese, he couldn't understand
anything. So *every five minutes*, the sadisticmotherfuckersensei has to
come over and kindly demonstrate for the useless clod again - on ME. And
he never just "showed" - he always did it, full-on, and held it while he
explained. Pain so bad that you irrationally laugh out loud.
"Hee hee! Please kill me! HA HA HA! I'll never use this arm again! Hoot!"
I should have just paid that dumb guy off to quit coming. But he would've
forgotten.
-dr. leopold
Binder
As any pro wrassler will attest, falls can be faked, but the punches are
usually very real. On top of that, gravity can't be faked: a fall from
six feet up is still a fall from six feet up.
Sockermom9
>Oh. my. god. Those hot summer afternoons in the aikido dojo.
Here's the TKD equivalent: Not long after earning a medal at the Olympics, a
good friend returned home and took up training with us. This person had kicks
that would frighten an oncoming Mac truck. I was probably at the peak of my
conditioning at that point, not long before I got my second degree. Still, I
wasn't stupid. I was holding two 4-inch-thick bags (granted, they do develop a
bit of a "hole" in the center after being kicked into hundreds of times, so I
wasn't totally wussing out). So here I am, partnered with this person. Twenty
minutes of bag-work later, and I'm definately wishing I'd visited the Little
Black Belts' Room before class, and my ribs feel like overdone pasta. The head
instructor wanders by, with a crowd of kids in tow. We're doing spinning
back-kicks, one of the most powerful kicks on the list. Ten, each side. God,
I'm fucking glad that's over. But the instructor isn't having any of it.
"Hey, you guys, watch how sie does hir turn back-kicks. That's what I want you
to do." Ok, half a dozen more. "Did you guys see how sie turns into that? Do
a couple more." And the kids are mesmerized. No one, of course, even notices
the poor chick having her insides turned to pudding behind the bag. The
instructor opens his mouth again. No way. I just stood up and handed *him*
the bag.
Turned out I'd separated two ribs.
Lynn
Hootowl
wrote:
>Sockermom9 wrote:
>
>> Starship writes:
>>
>>
>>>That sounds like the kind of thing I watch on Thursday nights. Are you
>>>sure you didn't accidently wind up in a pro wrestling class?
>>
>>
>> Most of the techniques I've seen (in the three or four minutes I can stand to
>> watch) in pro wrestling have been straight out of the jujitsu lists. The
>> competition in pro wrestling is faked, but those guys have some ok technique.
>
>As any pro wrassler will attest, falls can be faked, but the punches are
>usually very real. On top of that, gravity can't be faked: a fall from
>six feet up is still a fall from six feet up.
But, if the throw and the landing are properly executed, there is no
injury. Just ask anyone who has had even a single Judo lesson..
Hoot
>
>Binder
Sockermom9
>But, if the throw and the landing are properly executed, there is no
>injury. Just ask anyone who has had even a single Judo lesson..
However, in practice, you'll find that "properly executed" becomes less simple
to achieve. Just ask anyone who has more than one lesson.
Lynn
Spyral Fox
(Sockermom9) writes:
>However, in practice, you'll find that "properly executed" becomes less
>simple
>to achieve. Just ask anyone who has more than one lesson.
"The difference between theory & practice is that, in theory, practice
(always) works."
--
- - - Spyral Fox
San Diego Munch Despot SSB Cookbook Keeper
SSB Diplomatic Corpsfox Depooty Charter Enforcer (CLG)
http://members.aol.com/spyralfox/index.html
Janet Miles
<20040710102818...@mb-m29.aol.com>, Spyral Fox wrote:
> In article <20040709234411...@mb-m28.aol.com>, socke...@aol.comm
> (Sockermom9) writes:
>
> >However, in practice, you'll find that "properly executed" becomes less
> >simple to achieve. Just ask anyone who has more than one lesson.
>
> "The difference between theory & practice is that, in theory, practice
> (always) works."
The version I learned was, "The difference between theory and practice
is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice."
JanetM
--
Posted by Janet Miles <janet...@chartertn.net>
Sometimes it's a good idea to revere the sacred crazy
from a safe distance. -- Arthur D. Hlavaty
Philip the Foole
Well yeah, if you have a really nice partner who guides you gently to
the mat with lots of advance warning, judo falls are pretty safe.
Unfortunately, I always get matched against guys who are built like
refrigerators and who are making a very sincere effort to rip my arm off
at the shoulder.
Your Humble Jester
Philip the Foole
Aikido Master (loudly, to class of magic/rainbow/crystal/healing types):
Brush by. Blend with opponent's ki.
(very softly, to crash test dummy Foole, giving barely perceptible elbow
pulse to ribs during entry.) You understand "Brush by?"
Philip the Foole
> On Sat, 10 July, Philip the Foole wrote:
>
> ---------------------<snip>----------------------
>
>>Unfortunately, I always get matched against guys who are built like
>>refrigerators and who are making a very sincere effort to rip my arm off
>>at the shoulder.
>>
>>Your Humble Jester
>>
>>Philip the Foole
>
>
> This game is a lot of fun isn't it? I still get to play even though I
> haven't stepped on a mat in way too many years now. The thing I hated
> was teaching something like the 'soft' defense to a cross-wrist grab
> to a beginner. For those who don't know it, it's a wristlock and
> it'll drop you to your knees as fast as gravity will take you.
>
> Mr. White Belt thinks this is great, and it's a measure of your
> success to get him to do it right. Then you have to explain that
> putting a just a little more arc into the application of the technique
> makes the pain hit faster. "Come on now, try it this way. It'll make
> my wrist hurt more."
>
> Regards,
> O J
I was surprised to have my tai chi teacher demonstrate this wristlock,
which I had been taught as "nikyo" (2nd technique) in aikido, as an
application of "needle beneath the sea" in tai chi.
Pro wrestler "Judo Gene" LeBell teaches the identical move as a
wrestling lock called the "wrist pinch."
It's one of my favorite techniques, since it puts your partner instantly
on their knees in front of you, under complete control.
Be careful not to apply it to someone who has bad knees or wrists
though, unless you are into hospital emergency room scenes.
Spyral Fox
<fo...@icehouse.net> writes:
>Unfortunately, I always get matched against guys who are built like
>refrigerators and who are making a very sincere effort to rip my arm off
>at the shoulder.
I can understand that. In my Krav class, they're always yelling
at us to hit like we mean it. Oddly, the largest bruise on my
body at the moment isn't even from the self-defense class. Sadly,
it's also not from B&D.
Philip the Foole
> In article <YvVHc.29583$W6.2...@fe2.texas.rr.com>, Philip the Foole
> <fo...@icehouse.net> writes:
>
>
>>Unfortunately, I always get matched against guys who are built like
>>refrigerators and who are making a very sincere effort to rip my arm off
>>at the shoulder.
>
>
> I can understand that. In my Krav class, they're always yelling
> at us to hit like we mean it. Oddly, the largest bruise on my
> body at the moment isn't even from the self-defense class. Sadly,
> it's also not from B&D.
I don't know what teaching methods your Krav Maga instructors use, but I
find the best way to learn to deliver an effective strike is to actually
strike something when you practice. Otherwise, you will end up breaking
your own wrist the first time you punch an opponent.
I have a water-filled "Wave" heavy bag in the living room. It's the
only piece of exercise equipment that I actually enjoy using. Much more
fun for kickboxing workouts than the typical boxing heavy bag.
Philip the Foole
> On Sat, 10 July, Philip the Foole wrote:
>
> ---------------------<snip>----------------------
>
>>It's one of my favorite techniques, since it puts your partner instantly
>>on their knees in front of you, under complete control.
>
>
> Oh Philip,
>
> Could you show me how to do that technique just one more time?
>
> Pretty please.
>
> Regards,
> O J
Heh. It's amazing how attentive my "Erotic Takedown" workshop students
are when I point out that aspect of the technique.
The amateur wrestling "single leg pickup takedown" also works pretty
well for getting one's face buried in one's partner's wabbly bits,
although the "attacker" in this case is the person doing the kneeling.
The technique is to kneel down quickly, grab behind your partner's ankle
and knee, and lean into them, knocking them back onto their butt. Of
course, you can stop for a quick nibble first.
My crash-test dummy for "In the Woods" has been writing me recently,
asking what sort of clothes (if any) I want her to wear, and whether or
not I plan on ripping them off her during our "match."
I feel that this displays an *admirable* attitude.
Spyral Fox
<fo...@icehouse.net> writes:
>I don't know what teaching methods your Krav Maga instructors use, but I
>find the best way to learn to deliver an effective strike is to actually
>strike something when you practice. Otherwise, you will end up breaking
>your own wrist the first time you punch an opponent.
Yes -- we use heavy pads for that very reason. A bit softer to hit than
bone, but pretty much in the same place as the opponent is *supposed*
to be when we do it right.
Shalon Wood
> On 10 Jul 2004 14:28:18 GMT, in message
> <20040710102818...@mb-m29.aol.com>, Spyral Fox wrote:
>
>> In article <20040709234411...@mb-m28.aol.com>, socke...@aol.comm
>> (Sockermom9) writes:
>>
>> >However, in practice, you'll find that "properly executed" becomes less
>> >simple to achieve. Just ask anyone who has more than one lesson.
>>
>> "The difference between theory & practice is that, in theory, practice
>> (always) works."
>
> The version I learned was, "The difference between theory and practice
> is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice."
I want to live in Theory. Everything works in Theory.
Shalon Wood
--
Check out Strange Love -- an ezine of science fiction, fantasy, and
paranormal erotica. Only $2 for more than 20,000 words of fiction!
Jason Crowell
> Janet Miles <janet...@chartertn.net> writes:
>
> > On 10 Jul 2004 14:28:18 GMT, in message
> > <20040710102818...@mb-m29.aol.com>, Spyral Fox wrote:
> >
> >> In article <20040709234411...@mb-m28.aol.com>, socke...@aol.comm
> >> (Sockermom9) writes:
> >>
> >> >However, in practice, you'll find that "properly executed" becomes less
> >> >simple to achieve. Just ask anyone who has more than one lesson.
> >>
> >> "The difference between theory & practice is that, in theory, practice
> >> (always) works."
> >
> > The version I learned was, "The difference between theory and practice
> > is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice."
>
> I want to live in Theory. Everything works in Theory.
Theoretically, it's possible to live in Theory, but it's practically
impossible to live there.
> Shalon Wood
Sockermom9
>Mr. White Belt thinks this is great, and it's a measure of your
>success to get him to do it right. Then you have to explain that
>putting a just a little more arc into the application of the technique
>makes the pain hit faster. "Come on now, try it this way. It'll make
>my wrist hurt more."
<sigh> Ah, the good old days.
Lynn
Sockermom9
>My crash-test dummy for "In the Woods" has been writing me recently,
>asking what sort of clothes (if any) I want her to wear, and whether or
>not I plan on ripping them off her during our "match."
>
>I feel that this displays an *admirable* attitude.
It's so important to accessorize well. I find that handcuffs and nipple clamps
make any outfit complete.
Lynn
Sockermom9
>I can understand that. In my Krav class, they're always yelling
>at us to hit like we mean it. Oddly, the largest bruise on my
>body at the moment isn't even from the self-defense class. Sadly,
>it's also not from B&D.
Well, that sucks.
Lynn
Binder
> Binder writes:
>
>
>>A lasso, for instance. Of course, that would require I know how to use
>>one. But it would accomplish two of the major goals: staying as far away
>>as possible until she's immobilized, and immobilizing her well enough to
>>keep my skin and bones intact.
>
>
> You know what? Lassos (lariats) are fucking hard.
Huh? Spinning them seems a bit tricky, but throwing them has always
seemed pretty easy to me. Since I haven't thrown one in about 40 years,
though... maybe it's time for me to turn a little attention the reata.
>>What occurs to me might not be sensible... but even a Kung Fu master
>>must have some weakness(es.) Like stun guns or something.
>
>
> My big weakness is very simple. I see rope, I go all weak in the knees.
Spoilsport!
Binder
> In article <20040709234411...@mb-m28.aol.com>, socke...@aol.comm
> (Sockermom9) writes:
>
>
>>However, in practice, you'll find that "properly executed" becomes less
>>simple
>>to achieve. Just ask anyone who has more than one lesson.
>
>
> "The difference between theory & practice is that, in theory, practice
> (always) works."
"I know it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"
Hootowl
After I posted my reply, I remembered an incident some 30 years ago.
I saw a pro wrestler seriously injured in a match on TV. He was very
bloody, unconscious, and carried off on a stretcher. They were
concerned about a possible broken neck, and he appeared to be gravely
injured from the severe thrashing he took.
Three nights later, I saw him at a local minor league baseball game
without so much as a bruise or a limp. A friend of my father's once
had a blood capsule fly out of the ring and land in his lap while
seated at ringside. Some of their techniques were described by a
couple of wrestlers at a congressional investigation into sports
rigging a few decades back (sorry, I don't remember many details, as I
was enrolled in college classes and was much too busy). I just flip
the channel past wrestling (could be a great sport if made
respectable) unless there a couple of really sexy (not over-muscled),
scantily clad chicks going at it. THEN, I may watch it. :>
Hoot
>
>Lynn
Starship
>
> Starship writes:
>
> >That sounds like the kind of thing I watch on Thursday nights. Are you
> >sure you didn't accidently wind up in a pro wrestling class?
>
> Most of the techniques I've seen (in the three or four minutes I can stand to
> watch) in pro wrestling have been straight out of the jujitsu lists. The
> competition in pro wrestling is faked, but those guys have some ok technique.
That makes sense. I knew that many wrestlers have martial arts training,
but I didn't know which martial art. Personally though, I think the more
impressive part of pro wrestling is the precision acrobatics of the
smaller wrestlers. That, and the scantily clad women who sometimes (but
not nearly often enough) get spankings.
--
Starship
He which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
Jason Crowell
> Sockermom9 wrote:
> >
> > Starship writes:
> >
> > >That sounds like the kind of thing I watch on Thursday nights. Are you
> > >sure you didn't accidently wind up in a pro wrestling class?
> >
> > Most of the techniques I've seen (in the three or four minutes I can stand to
> > watch) in pro wrestling have been straight out of the jujitsu lists. The
> > competition in pro wrestling is faked, but those guys have some ok technique.
>
> That makes sense. I knew that many wrestlers have martial arts training,
> but I didn't know which martial art. Personally though, I think the more
> impressive part of pro wrestling is the precision acrobatics of the
> smaller wrestlers. That, and the scantily clad women who sometimes (but
> not nearly often enough) get spankings.
Yep, the acrobatics absolutely rocks. Why they still have leviathans
like Lesnar and Hogan (hasn't he petrified by now?) is beyond me.
Personally, I wouldn't mind getting my ass kicked by Lita...
bum...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> That, and the scantily clad women who sometimes (but
>not nearly often enough) get spankings.
They do a lot more often than the scantily-clad men get spankings.
:-(
"There is no point in acting like a brat when
there is no one to spank you." -- tyr
Reply to this address; mail sent to the address in
From: will disappear into a black hole. :)
Starship
>
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:31:41 GMT, Starship <stars...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > That, and the scantily clad women who sometimes (but
> >not nearly often enough) get spankings.
>
> They do a lot more often than the scantily-clad men get spankings.
But that's okay, because I don't really want to watch men get spanked.
bum...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>> > That, and the scantily clad women who sometimes (but
>> >not nearly often enough) get spankings.
>> They do a lot more often than the scantily-clad men get spankings.
>But that's okay, because I don't really want to watch men get spanked.
So? I wasn't talking about what YOU wanted. ;-P
Starship
I haven't seen Lesnar or Hogan in several months, although I'm sure
they'll both be back eventually. (Do living wrestlers ever permantly
retire?) The Undertaker and Kane are still active, though, and that new
guy, Luther Reins, who pushes Kurt Angle's wheelchair is pretty big.
> Personally, I wouldn't mind getting my ass kicked by Lita...
I'd be willing to have Stacy Keibler or Torrie Wilson - or, hey, both! -
try to pin me down and ravish me. But I doubt I'd be fighting back very hard.
Joseph Cabaup
"Shalon Wood" <ds...@pele.cx> wrote in message
news:87u0wf1...@pele.pele.cx...
LususNaturae
>Could there be a Theory, Maine?
Not that I know of. But getting back on topic, we do have...
Locke Mills
Bar Mills
Keyes Corner
Leathers Corner
Bonds Corners
Gag Corner
Baring
Birch Harbor
Blackstrap
Paine Corner
Carvers Harbor
Razorville
Sharp
Cutts Island
Deep Cut
Smarts Corner
--
Lusus Naturae