Erotic Art using Women, not Girls
ViF
usual his subject models looked like girls who just turned legal. I want
to see erotic art work that uses women as models, mothers, not girls who
look like they just passed through puberty. Many of the fetish models
look like girls, not women, to me. I do not want to view artwork of girls.
I must still be a feminist because it is very hard for me to look at
girls through a man's eye. I wonder if they are any *other* female
erotic artists in this group besides myself. If so, I would like to see
*your* work. I think cheeky girl and sick puppy are excellent female
writers and would also like to read more of their work, please.
Lynn
C'mon, kids, time to rev up those creative engines and produce
something that will make Vif happy!
Lynn
David Weinshenker
Well, she does raise an interesting point: there _is_ this perception
that "what men really want" is the sexual companionship of girls just
past puberty rather than that of older women... the sexual iconography
of our popular culture does tend to link "sexy" with "young" (or "as
young as possible without officially commiting Child-Abuse" - the whole
"barely legal" notion etc.); "we" (normatively) seem to avoid the notion
that "mature" women might appear sexually desirable to "a man's eye"...
-dave w
Tobie
<daz...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Well, she does raise an interesting point: there _is_ this perception
>that "what men really want" is the sexual companionship of girls just
>past puberty rather than that of older women... the sexual iconography
>of our popular culture does tend to link "sexy" with "young" (or "as
>young as possible without officially commiting Child-Abuse" - the whole
>"barely legal" notion etc.); "we" (normatively) seem to avoid the notion
>that "mature" women might appear sexually desirable to "a man's eye"...
Men like to look at women.
If a woman has one single attribute that any specific man finds
attractive, he's going to look at her...age isn't the issue, feeling
sexy is.
When a woman feels sexy, men ( not all ) are going to find her
interesting.
It's not men keeping women in boxes that are supposed to be ageless,
it's women.
Women define what men want because it's women who teach it to them,
their mothers, sisters, aunts, and friends.
Packaging is nice, but when you unwrap it with time and knowing, the
present inside it is still what it kept.
Tobie
The Dip in the Dip Corps
SSBB Diplomatic Corps
Portland Oregon
Brian Downstairs
stick insects and similar ladies used in pictures. Its much nicer to see
someone with a bit of padding and shape for goodness sake!
Brian
--
mildew...@blueyonder.co.uk
I hope I grow on you...
I'm a Fungi!!!
Blindness is a way of life.
"Lynn" <socke...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1164397672....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
GeneK
> Well, she does raise an interesting point: there _is_ this perception
> that "what men really want" is the sexual companionship of girls just
> past puberty rather than that of older women... the sexual iconography
> of our popular culture does tend to link "sexy" with "young" (or "as
> young as possible without officially commiting Child-Abuse" - the
> whole
> "barely legal" notion etc.); "we" (normatively) seem to avoid the
> notion
> that "mature" women might appear sexually desirable to "a man's
> eye"...
There is also a practical aspect to all of this. If you're making these
sorts of images and films, you need models who are willing to do
sexually daring things, on your schedule and for not very much
money. That doesn't always translate to women under 30, but the
supply of them is much larger because as most people mature they
either take on responsibilites that limit their availability, develop
the sense to become concerned about the consequences to their
careers or families if the materials being made get seen by the
wrong people or make higher demands for their participation.
How many opportunities would there be for the guy who makes
"Girls Gone Wild" to find gatherings of age 40+ women willing to
be that stupid in front of a camera, cheaply enough (or for free)
that he could market his product the way he does and make a
profit?
GeneK
fnordikins
finally a photo of my cute little self on the web. And I know that some
people who are classified as blind can see a little.
ViF
>
>
> C'mon, kids, time to rev up those creative engines and produce
> something that will make Vif happy!
>
> Lynn
>
>
interested in seeing my work to see the difference, so we are going to
work on it. I even offered myself as an object for him to manipulate
through photography, so we will see if that is an option. He is very
generous. I like him. I think we are going to have a rewarding
correspondence.
V
ViF
woman, and I look 19 or 20 and have a hard time thinking of myself as a
woman. So I am right there in the struggle myself. I would like to be a
sexual companion to a man and at the same time I have "sworn off men"
for another three years. I am in a predicament.
V
ViF
to be manipulated are just that: girls. Perhaps they do not know any
better. Perhaps that is what sells. You come across with a lot of
authority and the one true way mind set. I do not like it. I find myself
very agitated by you and very upset.
V
ViF
seen me naked or tasted my flesh or even looked deeply in my eyes, or
kissed me has fallen in love with me. I am no stick insect. I am very
uncomfortable with my sexuality. It is very potent and magnetic and most
men are attracted to it.
BTW I went down one cup size so I am no longer an Angelina Jolie, for
which I am glad. I was thinking to tell you that.
I do want to get thinner. I would like to look like a stick insect.
However I know it is my curves and my sensuality which men are drawn
too, my voluptuousness. Many relate me to a Hollywood actress of one
name or the other. *sigh* And yet I am remain celibate. So you see? I
should be enjoying my beauty and I do not.
V
OK
>
> How many opportunities would there be for the guy who makes
> "Girls Gone Wild" to find gatherings of age 40+ women willing to
> be that stupid in front of a camera, cheaply enough (or for free)
> that he could market his product the way he does and make a
> profit?
>
> GeneK
>
>
>
information, an erotic artist. I am not a girl gone wild, and despise
that genre.
V
ViF
V
GeneK
"OK" <O...@nospamsnet.net> wrote...
> I am talking about the art work of a member of this group, just for
> your information, an erotic artist. I am not a girl gone wild, and
> despise that genre.
Well, in that case he's got no excuse in practicality.
Either he's using such women because he's one of
those who prefers the immature look himself or
he's just pandering to those who do.
GeneK
Bob King
That's part of it. Although I've worked with women much older and much
rounder
http://flickr.com/photos/firewheelvortex/99563465/in/set-72057594071730883/
When you work with donated images, as I do, what's said above becomes
doubly true. :P
Tobie
wrote:
>
>That's part of it. Although I've worked with women much older and much
>rounder
>http://flickr.com/photos/firewheelvortex/99563465/in/set-72057594071730883/
It says I don't have permission to view that image.
Tobie
ViF
you could tell me if you have any girls that size. Maybe I have a
distorted self image. Barrister could speak to my image. That's it. I
won't tell you what he tells me but my self image is FUCKED. I have
never been photographed erotically, I would like to be.
V
TyMeDwn1st
wrote:
This is my nomination for Best Response of the Month. Thanks!
--
Ty
Who is mostly just a
slightly skewed
Donna Reed
You and I are told increasingly that we have to choose between a left or a
right. There is only an up or down: up to man's age-old dream -- the
ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order -- or down to
the ant heap of totalitarianism. And regardless of their sincerity, their
humanitarian motives, those who would trade our freedom for security have
embarked on this downward course.
~~ Ronald Reagan, Republican National Convention, 1964
Lynn
David Weinshenker wrote:
>
> Well, she does raise an interesting point: there _is_ this perception
> that "what men really want" is the sexual companionship of girls just
> past puberty rather than that of older women... the sexual iconography
> of our popular culture does tend to link "sexy" with "young" (or "as
> young as possible without officially commiting Child-Abuse" - the whole
> "barely legal" notion etc.); "we" (normatively) seem to avoid the notion
> that "mature" women might appear sexually desirable to "a man's eye"...
Remember, though, that it's a matter of taste. How many gays are
looking at the stuff that Vif found? How many dykes? How many people
of either gender who like Big Beautiful Women? Granted that those
outside the mainstream tend to be both more secretive and harder to
Google, they are out there.
Lynn
Lynn
ViF wrote:
> >
> I totally disagree. The girls whom men present to the world as objects
> to be manipulated are just that: girls.
Aren't you the one who said that having sex with children is ok?
Lynn
ViF
I said that human beings who pass through puberty ARE NOT CHILDREN ANYMORE.
Fuck Off.
I have had ENOUGH of your SHIT.
V
Tobie
Her POV was children past puberty are no longer children.
My recent reading on this tell me that this process can start at appx
age 9 and go on as long as 17, but that the base guess is 14.
At 14, most girls have begun having periods and most boys have active
sperm in their semen.
14 years old is a child, and I'm not ever going to change my POV on
that one.
NightMist
<gene@genek_hates_spammers.com> wrote:
I think your post makes clear that one would have to define some value
of erotic.
I tried doing a website once but it got pulled about two seconds after
it went up because a complainant ranted aout "blasphemous pornographic
pictures". To my mind the specific paintings in question _might_
have barely qualified as erotic.(1)
This has been a problem artists have run into for centuries because
you can't really tell what a given person on a given day is going to
find erotic. My paintings of naked black winged angels posed with
naked fully mature women in non-sexual situations obviously struck
someone as being a bit more than erotic. While I remain convinced
that any sane person would not see them as primarily erotic objects, I
don't really get to decide even though I'm the one who painted them.
By the by, I cannot afford models and so generally use an assortment
of reference photos and con friends into posing to get the life.
I tend to do more reality based woman shapes as well. No six foot tall
boy shaped girls in my paintings, unless they are body builders or
caricatures.
(1) series of 8, "And the Nephilim looked upon the Daughters of the
Earth and Found Them Fair" acrylic on wood or masonite panel, min
16x20, max 24x36
NightMist
--
Come to the dark side.
We have cookies.
ViF
returned to Kali yet again.
http://flickr.com/photos/olympiada/135133049/
This is a drawing I made in high school, over a decade ago. It will stay
public until it gets criticized and then it is going private again and I
will show a different one. My art is VERY private and I ask your
thoughts on this matter as I am struggling to produce work as an artist,
and I mean psychologically struggling. I have a job. My supervisor is
very impressed with my talent and is trying very hard to help me
produce. I need to make my art marketable to the greeting card market.
I got harassed by a NASTY gallery owner in another newsgroup. I have
been struggling with the nature of my art since I was 19. I am very much
like Frida Kahlo according to family, teachers and strangers, and yet I
need to commercialize my art and am FINALLY willing to after getting
broken enough.
I am a mystic, this is what my friends tell me, so if you are not
comfortable with mysticism, any one in this group, please do not read my
writing nor view my art.
I have made a decision through a private email correspondence today to
try not to write about people under the age of 18 from this point on. I
would ask your support in this decision. I am sorry for upsetting people
in regards to my point of view on the maturity of human beings. I can
not afford to deal with the kind of controversy Judith Levine deals with
right now.
GeneK
"NightMist" <night...@gmail.com> wrote...
> I think your post makes clear that one would have to define some value
> of erotic.
I feel for you regarding your experience, but the point I was replying
to was not about the distinction between art, erotica or just plain
porn, but about the the question of young vs mature models, which
I think was a different subject altogether.
GeneK
ViF
dangerous subject in a PUBLIC newsgroup and not one I am willing to deal
with anymore in a PUBLIC newsgroup.
David Weinshenker
>
> GeneK wrote:
> > "NightMist" <night...@gmail.com> wrote...
> >
> >
> >> I think your post makes clear that one would have to define some value
> >> of erotic.
> >>
> >
> > I feel for you regarding your experience, but the point I was replying
> > to was not about the distinction between art, erotica or just plain
> > porn, but about the the question of young vs mature models, which
> > I think was a different subject altogether.
> >
> > GeneK
> >
> >
> >
> Exactly, and one I have been advised to go silent on.
Advised by whom?
> It is a VERY
> dangerous subject in a PUBLIC newsgroup and not one I am willing to deal
> with anymore in a PUBLIC newsgroup.
Dangerous how?
-dave w
ViF
> ViF wrote:
>
>> GeneK wrote:
>>
>>> "NightMist" <night...@gmail.com> wrote...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I think your post makes clear that one would have to define some value
>>>> of erotic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I feel for you regarding your experience, but the point I was replying
>>> to was not about the distinction between art, erotica or just plain
>>> porn, but about the the question of young vs mature models, which
>>> I think was a different subject altogether.
>>>
>>> GeneK
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Exactly, and one I have been advised to go silent on.
>>
>
> Advised by whom?
>
A member of this group. I will let that person speak up if they choose.
To be honest, I was advised by a leader of my church to be very careful
what I say out in public. I am finally getting it a year later. I hope
that person realizes my awakening to their truth.
>
>> It is a VERY
>> dangerous subject in a PUBLIC newsgroup and not one I am willing to deal
>> with anymore in a PUBLIC newsgroup.
>>
>
> Dangerous how?
>
> -dave w
>
Dangerous because of the witch hunt in America. Those are my words on
the subject, not my advisor's. I have determined it is not wise to talk
about minor children out in public anymore and I will strive not to. It
is hard as a parent not to as I have stated before. I stated this goal
to the newsgroup over the Summer, and I failed to meet my goal. Because
of a conversation I had today I am restating my goal.
I want to thank nlp for bringing that to my attention. I appreciate nlp
coming to this group. He has been immensely helpful to me already. I
hope he remains in this group and writes more about his sentimental
journey. I would like to become even sweeter so that I may talk about
sentiment.
Some are offended by my mention of prayer and I apologize to them. I
would offer my prayers for nlp, but it feels strange praying for a nym.
nlp knows he may reveal his name to me if he wishes or advise me on
praying for a nym. I am willing to be open to his advice, and actually
strongly desire his advice.
Thank you for caring David. I also really appreciate you.
Serion Ironcroft
> C'mon, kids, time to rev up those creative engines and produce
> something that will make Vif happy!
It's been done. There's even a specific genre. Just Google "milf".
Heck, it's even in Wikipedia!
Whether it would make ViF happy or not I can't begin to imagine, and
certainly wouldn't try.
Hugs, Serion
ViF
with hip mama, and even had a blog there for awhile.
http://www.hipmama.com/
I had my daughter at an out of hospital birth center. That is my
subculture, the hip mama
This is where I was *supposed* to have my daughter
http://www.sagefemme.net/ http://www.sagefemme.net/content/view/19/53/
I have told my story of my labor and delivery elsewhere, no need to
retell it here.
You have no idea who I am. That is what is hilarious.
Don't worry, my day will come.
ViF
> I would just like to point out that, based on her comments, ViF should never,
> ever, look at anything made in the entire country of Japan.
>
>
You are so far of the mark. I love the anime of Hayao Mizaki. I don't
care if I misunderstand you. I think I have written enough about my
relationship to Japanese people and Japanese culture for you to get a clue.
Wow.
I am amazed at the density of this newsgroup. Utterly floored.
Lynn
ViF wrote:
> >
> You are so far of the mark. I love the anime of Hayao Mizaki. I don't
> care if I misunderstand you. I think I have written enough about my
> relationship to Japanese people and Japanese culture for you to get a clue.
Yes, now that she's in the know about how Korean women really are,
she's sure that Japanese women are just the submissive role models for
her! Or ducks. Unless it's Tuesday, in which case she's incredibly
beautiful and every man she meets wants her.
Lynn
ViF
ridicule me. It is very sad.
One gets to know people through personal relationships, not about
reading about on them on a newsgroup, or the web, or even in a book.
I have already told the group I have warm personal relationships with
not only Japanese and Korean women, but even hens!
But of course you will not listen and will only hear what you want to
hear so you may go on painting your caricature. *sigh* One would hope as
a home owner in the Bay Area, and a wine drinker, and a dog owner, and
a soccer mom you would be as erudite as you want us to think you are.
Where exactly were you educated?
Nena and Al
<daz...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>there _is_ this perception
>that "what men really want" is the sexual companionship of girls just
>past puberty rather than that of older women..
I don't think that's true. When it comes to erotic art, which is
where this started, it seems to be the case that the women depicted
are those the artist finds most attractive. One doesn't see many
wrinkles, stretch marks, saggy tits or gray hairs, but on the other
paw, "barely legal", while well-represented in spam and such, doesn't
seem to be a big proportion of the sexual imagery and erotic art
that's out there. In femdom art, which is what I see most of since
that's what Al's attracted to, the women are pretty obviously well
past puberty.
I browsed an erotic art webring and briefly visited the first few
dozen sites listed and didn't see barely-legal looking women. I'm
sure those images are out there, but if this is what folks think men
are looking for I would think that they would have shown up in that
sample. All the women looked sexually mature to me. Even the couple
I saw in school girl outfits couldn't be mistaken for school girls.
If erotic art should be considered a reflection of "what men really
want", the examples I saw indicate that what men really want is
melonesque, gravity-defying breasts and full rounded backsides.
Nena
GeneK
"Nena and Al" <m...@madamegiggles.com> wrote...
> the examples I saw indicate that what men really want is
> melonesque, gravity-defying breasts and full rounded backsides.
If they're natural and don't contain something that's liable
to leak synthetic fluids and not heal, such forms do make
great targets...
GeneK
Troia
although now gravity has had some effect, though I think they are still
nicely shaped naturally.
When I laid on my back (heh, does that sound as dirty to you as it does
to me?), there were those who were a bit astounded at just how "gravity
defying" they were, though I thought nothing of it at the time. (Mind
you, I was never built small *g*.)
But as nature and time catch up with me, I realize that I am less hung
up about them as a "target" than I was before. I think the problem in
Real Life with breasts, for many women, is that we are a bit worried
about them being harmed long-term. So it took me until I was over 50 to
feel free enough to get into any real breast play (I mean, not the
gentle sort!); even so, I don't think I will ever want to consent to
use of clothespins, though I did try it some years ago. But many a
lovely fantasy has included having my arms tied overhead and attention
paid to those, um, naturally-protruding targets; it's really a bit
liberating to feel comfortable (well, as "comfortable" as one can be
with arms tied overhead and being whipped!) with playing out such acts now.
I don't really understand the appeal to men of "enhanced" breasts -- the
shape always looks somehow wrong to me, and I can't really get how one
can be turned on by a bag of silicone -- but I most certainly can see
how the real thing would make such appealing targets for all sorts of
attention. I do suspect that I am not alone, though, in having gone
through a period where I was over-protective, and then having become
more liberal in real play as I aged.
One really ironic part of this is that I have always disliked (and
avoided, as much as possible) wearing a bra, and contrary to popular
belief, they haven't sagged more as a result.
But .... sigh .... I do wish at times that I'd had one of those
beautifully-rounded backsides to go along; it is, after all, that part
of my anatomy that takes the most attention, and mine simply hasn't the
shape I would like it to, and never has.
-- Troia
jacqui{JB}
news:4568a4de$0$97229$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
> So it took me until I was over 50 to feel free
> enough to get into any real breast play (I mean,
> not the gentle sort!); even so, I don't think I will
> ever want to consent to use of clothespins, though
> I did try it some years ago.
Hmm. I'm a *big* fan of clothespins, so I'm curious what it is that you
don't like/have concerns about when it comes to them? Apart from the
occasional surface bruise, they're not particularly likely to cause harm.
Is it just the sensation you don't care for?
-j
NightMist
Beg to differ, though I was thinking more than I was typing which is a
definite failing of mine.
The examples spoken of prior to what I wrote were not what I would
consider erotic art but rather porno. If one is to have a
conversation concerning erotic art one is going to have to to an
extent define it.
I think you do run into models who deviate far from average in shape
and apparent age much more often in photographic media than you do in
other media. Partly because women willing to work within that media
have a set of beliefs as to what is expected of them as regards their
appearance, which sadly gets constant reinforcment via the mainstream
entertainment industry.
One reason you get more realistic representations of women in other
media, is that the artist can easily alter their subjects at will. I
can pose a model who is working hard to look like 10 year old boy and
turn her into something much more normal looking on the painted panel.
Besides that it is much easier to get average shaped women to pose for
a painting than it is to get them to pose for a photograph, IME
anyway. I have run into more than a few who were willing to pose for
weeks rather than allowing me to photograph them. The myth of
incredibly fattening film I think.
The website wasn't that big a deal. Just another mark on the very long
annoyance tally sheet. Just brought it up to emphasize that one
persons naked angel is art is another persons porno.
Lynn
jacqui{JB} wrote:
> > So it took me until I was over 50 to feel free
> > enough to get into any real breast play (I mean,
> > not the gentle sort!); even so, I don't think I will
> > ever want to consent to use of clothespins, though
> > I did try it some years ago.
>
> Hmm. I'm a *big* fan of clothespins, so I'm curious what it is that you
> don't like/have concerns about when it comes to them? Apart from the
> occasional surface bruise, they're not particularly likely to cause harm.
> Is it just the sensation you don't care for?
I'm with you, but hating clamps of any kind isn't unusual. I'm proud
to say that I've brought a couple of clamp-haters around to the dark
side, but there are still plenty more out there.
Lynn
Troia
Well, let me say first that I suspect I am in the minority; most of the
submissive masochists that I know do seem to enjoy them.
The compression is pretty uncontrolled. I do worry about damage to the
underlying tissue. I don't much like the sensation, though I can't tell
you why it is vastly different to me than, say, nipple clamps (which I
also don't like, though in a different way, but would submit to with the
right person.)
And I *seriously* suspect it may also be simply that I grew up at a time
that clothes really were hung on clotheslines with them, though I can't
quite put my finger on why that would bother, since I don't mind other
pervertibles. (I mean, after all, I once got spanked with the TV remote!)
And ... I don't like wood things much, but that's mostly for spanking,
so I don't really know what my crossover thought is there.
I don't know precisely (in case that's not obvious!)... they just seem
crude to me (sorry) and the pain just doesn't seem "right".
-- Troia
Troia
clamp-haters (that I know of), and I'm not even sure I'd ever have
thought of such a term to describe myself, but it's accurate.
OTOH, I have no doubt that the right Dom, if he wished, could bring me
around; I've been brought to want or enjoy other things that were
farther from my own desires before.
-- Troia
Troia
> Troia, but I somehow associate that intense pain with damage to a part of my
> body that I view as fragile. Whether or not they do any real damage is
> beside the point. The association is there, in my head. I think it's almost
> an instinctual reaction; like when a man automatically protects his balls.
> Not to mention that, while I like sensations like thud and sting and tickle,
> such intense pain as the removal of clothespins is just not my kink.
>
> mady
While I do like some other sorts of intense pain, I think your
explanation otherwise has me nodding (in agreement).
-- Troia
Golden California Girls
> The examples spoken of prior to what I wrote were not what I would
> consider erotic art but rather porno. If one is to have a
> conversation concerning erotic art one is going to have to to an
> extent define it.
Tit without wit is shit!
I think that covers it quite well.
Golden California Girls
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 06:23:25 +0100, "jacqui{JB}"
> <shining_o...@ME.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Troia, but I somehow associate that intense pain with damage to a part of my
> body that I view as fragile. Whether or not they do any real damage is
> beside the point. The association is there, in my head. I think it's almost
> an instinctual reaction; like when a man automatically protects his balls.
> Not to mention that, while I like sensations like thud and sting and tickle,
> such intense pain as the removal of clothespins is just not my kink.
Then despite them not feeling to tight when put on, they are (for you.) Have
them desprung a bit. The pain is mostly the rush of blood back into the area.
Like frostbite thawing out. Less clamp and more blood flows while they are on
so less rush when they come off. Also the longer they are on, the worse it
hurts when they come off, so make sure your partner knows your time limit and
respects it. Also each person is different in another respect, some have a bit
thicker flesh layer than others and that has an effect on pain level.
TyMeDwn1st
>On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 06:23:25 +0100, "jacqui{JB}"
><shining_o...@ME.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Why? Because those fuckers hurt like hell when removed! I don't know about
>Troia, but I somehow associate that intense pain with damage to a part of my
>body that I view as fragile. Whether or not they do any real damage is
>beside the point. The association is there, in my head. I think it's almost
>an instinctual reaction; like when a man automatically protects his balls.
>Not to mention that, while I like sensations like thud and sting and tickle,
>such intense pain as the removal of clothespins is just not my kink.
One of the very few instances in which my being tightly restrained probably
prevented me from killing the top was a clothespin scene very early in my
active-kink days. I was tied sitting astride a coffee table with clothespins
running from one wrist across both breasts and down to the other wrist, and
another group from knee to wabbly bits to knee. A separate cluster pretty well
covered the wabbly bits. That magical and dreaded moment arrived when it first
dawned on me that the only way out of the torment was the increased torment of
removal. Lessons learned, and all that. Restraint is a Good Thing.
OTOH, clamps and pins and such do provide great clues about the real-life
experiences of folks who write wanker material. Reading that the imaginary sub
sighed deeply with relief when he removed the clamps from her swollen nipples
lets me just skip right past the rest of the story.
--
Ty
Who is mostly just a
slightly skewed
Donna Reed
You and I are told increasingly that we have to choose between a left or a
right. There is only an up or down: up to man's age-old dream -- the
ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order -- or down to
the ant heap of totalitarianism. And regardless of their sincerity, their
humanitarian motives, those who would trade our freedom for security have
embarked on this downward course.
~~ Ronald Reagan, Republican National Convention, 1964
TyMeDwn1st
wrote:
>And ... I don't like wood things much, but that's mostly for spanking,
>so I don't really know what my crossover thought is there.
Well, that's easily resolved <evil grin>. Try using plastic ones for an
interesting change in sensation.
user119
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:51:54 -0800, Troia <troia....@gmail.removethis.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>And ... I don't like wood things much, but that's mostly for spanking,
>>so I don't really know what my crossover thought is there.
>
> Well, that's easily resolved <evil grin>. Try using plastic ones for an
> interesting change in sensation.
And to be impartial, try all the sizes from the smallest to the largest.
--
Cui bonuo
remove the -N-COLD to reply
Lynn
Troia wrote:
>
> Well, let me say first that I suspect I am in the minority; most of the
> submissive masochists that I know do seem to enjoy them.
Hmmm...I wonder why it would be that different for dominant masochists.
>
> The compression is pretty uncontrolled. I do worry about damage to the
> underlying tissue.
Well, if nothing else, I can can set your mind to rest. I've worn
heavy nipple clamps with pretty much as-uncontrolled-pressure as
possible (clover clamps with a dangling bumble-ball attached), and
there was no damage. Hurt like the dickens, but nothing was left after
taking them off (a little soreness for a day or so--certainly nothing
to compare to a caning). But it really is possible to be very precise
about the compression from any given clothespin. The judicious use of
rubber bands can make them anywhere from "about to fall off" to "mother
*fuck*!".
> And I *seriously* suspect it may also be simply that I grew up at a time
> that clothes really were hung on clotheslines with them, though I can't
> quite put my finger on why that would bother, since I don't mind other
> pervertibles. (I mean, after all, I once got spanked with the TV remote!)
It's been popular to ascribe BDSM inclinations to people based on what
they are or are not outside of BDSM. For instance, it's been widely
circulated that many powerful male CEOs and so forth are secretly
submissives or masochists because they have so much responsibility and
power in the *real* world that they want to give it up. Or that they
feel guilty over being so powerful out there that they feel some need
to be punished. Mostly, I think, it's caca.
I detest straps. It's as good to say that that is because the
seatbelts in my car are straps, and so I don't like them in play.
> I don't know precisely (in case that's not obvious!)... they just seem
> crude to me (sorry) and the pain just doesn't seem "right".
That's kind of me and straps, actually. I process the pain as actual
damage, despite being able to look at my butt and see none.
Lynn
Lynn
mady wrote:
>
> Why? Because those fuckers hurt like hell when removed!
Gee, Mady, you say that like it's a bad thing. ;-)
I don't know about
> Troia, but I somehow associate that intense pain with damage to a part of my
> body that I view as fragile. Whether or not they do any real damage is
> beside the point. The association is there, in my head. I think it's almost
> an instinctual reaction; like when a man automatically protects his balls.
> Not to mention that, while I like sensations like thud and sting and tickle,
> such intense pain as the removal of clothespins is just not my kink.
See clamps. See clamps removed. See Lynn come.
Actually, I have had clamps on that were so painful when removed that I
was too busy screaming to orgasm. But immediately afterward, I usually
think, "Silly girl, you missed out on a nice orgasm, screaming like
that!"
We're very, very funny people.
Lynn
Molly B
>
<snip>
>
>See clamps. See clamps removed. See Lynn come.
>
>Actually, I have had clamps on that were so painful when removed that I
>was too busy screaming to orgasm. But immediately afterward, I usually
>think, "Silly girl, you missed out on a nice orgasm, screaming like
>that!"
>
>We're very, very funny people.
Some of us are funny-weird, and some of us are funny-amusing, and some of us are
both :)
But here's my question: did you have that response to clamps immediately, or did
you work up to it?
The first time anyone played with my tits, the person doing the playing seemed
to be having fun, and I thought "yeah, ok, glad you're enjoying yourself, even
if I don't entirely understand why." The tits were unimpressed. Because they'd
never been played with before (and I'm such a sensitive little thing) there was
some bruising, and I felt sort of sorry for them.
But then, aha, it was like they woke up or something -- the next time they were
played with, everyone had a good time. Still, I think the
clamp-removal-instant-orgasm is a long way away.
So, does it take lots and lots of arduous training?
Molly B
fnordikins
> So, does it take lots and lots of arduous training?
>
And is a training bra involved?
Troia
> Troia wrote:
>> Well, let me say first that I suspect I am in the minority; most of the
>> submissive masochists that I know do seem to enjoy them.
>
> Hmmm...I wonder why it would be that different for dominant masochists.
Well, more like I'm not terribly well-acquainted with many dominant
masochists, so I couldn't say.
And I don't know that I've discussed clothespins with the few switches I
know well enough to discuss it with.
>> The compression is pretty uncontrolled. I do worry about damage to the
>> underlying tissue.
>
> Well, if nothing else, I can can set your mind to rest.
No, see, that's the problem, you can't really.
See below.... below the below, that is.
> It's been popular to ascribe BDSM inclinations to people based on what
> they are or are not outside of BDSM. ...
Well, I do *personally* know a lot of kinky lawyers, so I have a hard
time dismissing the whole concept. I don't know why it's lawyers --
I've heard theories -- but the proportion is way out of whack. And a
good friend of mine knows three law librarians who are or were pro Doms;
that really whacks out the stats averages. That's one that's been
pretty consistent, too, for about 20 years of my own experience.
>
> I detest straps. It's as good to say that that is because the
> seatbelts in my car are straps, and so I don't like them in play....
>
> That's kind of me and straps, actually. I process the pain as actual
> damage, despite being able to look at my butt and see none.
>
Well, see?
Nothing logically said or known is really likely to change that
response, is it?
-- Troia
Troia
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:51:54 -0800, Troia <troia....@gmail.removethis.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> And ... I don't like wood things much, but that's mostly for spanking,
>> so I don't really know what my crossover thought is there.
>
> Well, that's easily resolved <evil grin>. Try using plastic ones for an
> interesting change in sensation.
Ack, no! Plastic is worse than anything; I despise just about all
plastic things and probably would lose every bit of erotic response if
someone used plastic in playing with me.
I mean, OK, the TV remote was a one-time thing and I was blindfolded and
so whacked-out by then that it didn't mater, but I've never been a FPBB
type, I don't like plastic stuff in the house, plastic dishware of any
sort makes me almost lose interest in food and drink ... well, you get
the idea.
And there is my grand explanation, aside from its absolute gorgeous
aesthetic appeal, why the only dildo I've ever owned is glass!
-- Troia
jacqui{JB}
> Ack, no! Plastic is worse than anything; I despise
> just about all plastic things and probably would lose
> every bit of erotic response if someone used plastic
> in playing with me.
>
> I mean, OK, the TV remote was a one-time thing
> and I was blindfolded and so whacked-out by then
> that it didn't mater, but I've never been a FPBB
> type, I don't like plastic stuff in the house, plastic
> dishware of any sort makes me almost lose interest
> in food and drink ... well, you get the idea.
Yeesh, I thought *I* was picky. :) You just need a Bang & Olufsen tv
remote: they're metal (and damned heavy!).
-j
Nick
>
snip
>
>It's been popular to ascribe BDSM inclinations to people based on what
>they are or are not outside of BDSM. For instance, it's been widely
>circulated that many powerful male CEOs and so forth are secretly
>submissives or masochists because they have so much responsibility and
>power in the *real* world that they want to give it up. Or that they
>feel guilty over being so powerful out there that they feel some need
>to be punished. Mostly, I think, it's caca.
>
snip
One female dominant on this group observed a few years ago that this
seemed to be based upon those who were involved with pro-dommes. She
went on to point out that the hourly rate most pro's charge is not a
trivial amount. This automatically limited the sample to those making
enough money to be able to spend it on such luxuries.
Troia
Yeah yeah yeah!!!!
-- Troia
sometimes a painslut
Golden California Girls
Lynn
Molly B wrote:
>
> Some of us are funny-weird, and some of us are funny-amusing, and some of us are
> both :)
Just the good ones. ;-)
>
> But here's my question: did you have that response to clamps immediately, or did
> you work up to it?
I had that basic response to clamps right off the bat. Not that I
could take the heavy ones right away, though I'd nursed two kids and my
nipples were pretty tough. But the connection between my nipples and
my clit is very strong and was from the minute someone said, "hey,
let's try these!"
>
> The first time anyone played with my tits, the person doing the playing seemed
> to be having fun, and I thought "yeah, ok, glad you're enjoying yourself, even
> if I don't entirely understand why." The tits were unimpressed. Because they'd
> never been played with before (and I'm such a sensitive little thing) there was
> some bruising, and I felt sort of sorry for them.
They sound like very good sports. ;-)
> But then, aha, it was like they woke up or something -- the next time they were
> played with, everyone had a good time. Still, I think the
> clamp-removal-instant-orgasm is a long way away.
>
> So, does it take lots and lots of arduous training?
Oh, yes, indeed. One must practice--tell your top I told you so.
Lynn
Lynn
Troia wrote:
> Well, I do *personally* know a lot of kinky lawyers, so I have a hard
> time dismissing the whole concept. I don't know why it's lawyers --
> I've heard theories -- but the proportion is way out of whack.
Er, I suggest sampling error. You see a lot of kinky people who are
lawyers--the lawyers who aren't kinky aren't showing up to be polled.
> > I detest straps. It's as good to say that that is because the
> > seatbelts in my car are straps, and so I don't like them in play....
> >
> > That's kind of me and straps, actually. I process the pain as actual
> > damage, despite being able to look at my butt and see none.
> >
> Well, see?
> Nothing logically said or known is really likely to change that
> response, is it?
Well, again, a vibrator to the clit did a fair job of causing me to
contemplate a few more strokes. Not that I'm suggesting that a Real
Masochist Must Love All Pain, just that we're probably more flexible
than we think, if we really choose to go for it.
Lynn
TyMeDwn1st
wrote IRT Lynn:
>> It's been popular to ascribe BDSM inclinations to people based on what
>> they are or are not outside of BDSM. ...
>Well, I do *personally* know a lot of kinky lawyers, so I have a hard
>time dismissing the whole concept. I don't know why it's lawyers --
>I've heard theories -- but the proportion is way out of whack. And a
>good friend of mine knows three law librarians who are or were pro Doms;
> that really whacks out the stats averages. That's one that's been
>pretty consistent, too, for about 20 years of my own experience.
I know two law librarians. One is a dom (used to be my dom, in fact, 12 years
ago) and the other is a sub of the wormish, grovelly,
please-mistress-step-on-me-with-your-stiletto-heeled-boots variety.
I think we both have a limited data-base on which to draw implications.
TyMeDwn1st
wrote:
>TyMeDwn1st wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:51:54 -0800, Troia <troia....@gmail.removethis.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> And ... I don't like wood things much, but that's mostly for spanking,
>>> so I don't really know what my crossover thought is there.
>>
>> Well, that's easily resolved <evil grin>. Try using plastic ones for an
>> interesting change in sensation.
>
>Ack, no! Plastic is worse than anything; I despise just about all
>plastic things and probably would lose every bit of erotic response if
>someone used plastic in playing with me.
>
>I mean, OK, the TV remote was a one-time thing and I was blindfolded and
>so whacked-out by then that it didn't mater, but I've never been a FPBB
>type, I don't like plastic stuff in the house, plastic dishware of any
>sort makes me almost lose interest in food and drink ... well, you get
>the idea.
Sure. All the more reason why plastic clothes pins would be so very nice for
you <cackle>.
Tobie
wrote:
>Sure. All the more reason why plastic clothes pins would be so very nice for
>you <cackle>.
Very bright, rainbow colors, neon even.
Tobie
Just trying to be helpfull!
Troia
> Troia wrote:
>
>> Well, I do *personally* know a lot of kinky lawyers, so I have a hard
>> time dismissing the whole concept. I don't know why it's lawyers --
>> I've heard theories -- but the proportion is way out of whack.
>
> Er, I suggest sampling error. You see a lot of kinky people who are
> lawyers--the lawyers who aren't kinky aren't showing up to be polled.
I know a *lot* of lawyers ... I mean, literally hundreds of 'em, which
tends to work out what might be considered sampling issues. And over
the last 20 years, the stats have seemed dreadfully skewed. But as I
said, I also have a friend who knows 3 different law librarians who are
or were pro Doms. Now that is pretty significant even in a very large city.
Also, I have heard the same from others.
So ... Idunno ... there may be something to it.
After all, if I'm missing something in my sampling, it's more likely to
be ones that I think are straight because I don't know about their
kinkiness, rather than the other way around.
-- Troia
Golden California Girls
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 23:30:09 -0800, Golden California Girls
> <gldnc...@aol.com.mil> wrote:
>
>> Also each person is different in another respect, some have a bit
>> thicker flesh layer than others and that has an effect on pain level.
>
> Tickling and electricity make me hum. But clothespins and clamps are just
> not gonna happen. That's just the way I am. Btw, the fact that I have also
> had benign cysts removed had made one breast so super sensitive as to not
> even be able to handle light caning.
So were not going to have them so loose we need to glue them keep them in place...
So, how about your rump?
Tobie
<gldnc...@aol.com.mil> wrote:
>So, how about your rump?
Inner under arm, under arm through upper side of the chest, upper
inner thigh to labia,or balls, other thigh, ZIPPER *rip*
Little toes, between the toes, between the fingers, neck.
*sigh-yum*
Pain, yes..
Tobie
the kinder gentler one
Ruth Lawrence
"Tobie" <mizte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cogkm2tse7fo0rubl...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:25:16 -0500, TyMeDwn1st <tymed...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Sure. All the more reason why plastic clothes pins would be so very nice
>>for
>>you <cackle>.
>
> Very bright, rainbow colors, neon even.
>
Okay, maybe I need a top to try this with.
Ruth, big chicken, needs soft clamps most places
Ruth Lawrence
Actually, maybe lawyers feel empowered as well as financially okay, and teh
kink is more common than we suspect?
Ruth
Ruth Lawrence
"mady" <madyl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bvukm292tbq2apg5u...@4ax.com...
>
>>So, how about your rump?
>
> not
> my thing, not my kink.
Some folks have places that are sufficiently resilient that bad pain doesn't
register but the runner's high still comes on.
Ruth, being helpful to Teh Lurkers
Tobie
<curly...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> Very bright, rainbow colors, neon even.
>>
>
>Okay, maybe I need a top to try this with.
>
>Ruth, big chicken, needs soft clamps most places
I've over stressed pins for a few days before to use on sensitive
bottoms. And clamps are good for those folks too, like mini vise
clamps? That way you have better control over the pressure.
AND, you can also cut small pieces of cardboard and super glue them to
the back part of the clothespin teeth so that they can only close just
so far.
Tobie
always willing to try something inventive to get the job done
The Dip in the Dip Corps
SSBB Diplomatic Corps
Portland Oregon
Troia
> ... But clothespins and clamps are just
> not gonna happen. That's just the way I am. Btw, the fact that I have also
> had benign cysts removed had made one breast so super sensitive as to not
> even be able to handle light caning.
>
>
Never thought that was relevant, interesting. But I don't know if it
still affects me 20 years later, and also the cut was on the underside
of the breast.
-- Troia
Troia
finances (at least, in these parts) and I often do suspect BDSM-kinked
is more common than most estimates.
After all, I rarely have met a vanilla person who was cold to the idea
of spanking or simple restraints (i.e. handcuffs or a silk scarf), so I
don't tend to think it's that great a leap to a bit more.
-- Troia
Ruth Lawrence
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:10:48 +1100, "Ruth Lawrence"
> <curly...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>>> Very bright, rainbow colors, neon even.
>>>
>>
>>Okay, maybe I need a top to try this with.
>>
>>Ruth, big chicken, needs soft clamps most places
>
> I've over stressed pins for a few days before to use on sensitive
> bottoms.
uh huh...
>...And clamps are good for those folks too, like mini vise
> clamps?
I don't know.
The 'stuff' we get here seems to be a tad different.
>.. That way you have better control over the pressure.
> AND, you can also cut small pieces of cardboard and super glue them to
> the back part of the clothespin teeth so that they can only close just
> so far.
Hmmm...there's a brand of chinese plastic clothespins (we call them pegs)
sold at the Go Lo, I should get them. They're not very fierce, but would
not fall off.
Thing is, trying stuff on oneself whilst cold as a kind of Experiment isn't
quite the same as Play (for me).
Ruth, whose earlobes, septum and nips seem okay, but certainly not the
insides of her arms
Ruth Lawrence
> Ruth Lawrence wrote:
>> Actually, maybe lawyers feel empowered as well as financially okay, and
>> teh kink is more common than we suspect?
> I don't know about the "empowered" part, really, but definitely have the
> finances (at least, in these parts) and I often do suspect BDSM-kinked is
> more common than most estimates.
>
> After all, I rarely have met a vanilla person who was cold to the idea of
> spanking or simple restraints (i.e. handcuffs or a silk scarf), so I don't
> tend to think it's that great a leap to a bit more.
The empowerment bit might energise a leap, is my theory.
Ruth
Tobie
*evil grin*
Tongues are fun if you pull them out far enough to do a whole
horseshoe on them.
think lobster bibs though, it gets messy.
Tobie
Ruth Lawrence
*So* perverted!
:::pretends to shake head:::
Ruth
Troia
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:43:22 -0800, Troia
> <troia....@gmail.removethis.com> wrote:
>
>> Never thought that was relevant, interesting. But I don't know if it
>> still affects me 20 years later, and also the cut was on the underside
>> of the breast.
>
> scar area (many exams, mammogramsm\, tests...it's just one of those things)
> and that breast is just very sensitive to pain. It may be because mine was
> on the side and so is constantly being pulled at by gravity.
>
> mady
Well, I appreciate the info; I'm lucky in that mine is almost invisible
where it was placed (it's sort of on the underside at the outside) and
even was barely discernible when I was more perky *g*.
Also the fingers and mind went somewhere on that post, it was supposed
to read "30 years later" (I was relatively young when it was done, but
continued to have very painful cysts over the years, or at least so
around certain times of month.)
I really never thought before about how the surgery could have affected
sensation, though, and appreciate the perspective.
-- Troia
Tobie
<curly...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>*So* perverted!
Why, yes. Yes I am.
>
>:::pretends to shake head:::
I'll steal a line from Happy Feet,
"Chew know chew like it."
Tobie
*laughing*
Bob King
Tobie wrote:
> On 24 Nov 2006 14:07:56 -0800, "Bob King" <Graphi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >That's part of it. Although I've worked with women much older and much
> >rounder
> >http://flickr.com/photos/firewheelvortex/99563465/in/set-72057594071730883/
>
> It says I don't have permission to view that image.
>
> Tobie
As it involves ample boobage, you must have an account and be my
friend. Forgot that tiny detail..
Tobie
wrote:
>As it involves ample boobage, you must have an account and be my
>friend. Forgot that tiny detail..
Well there ya go!
I don't have ample boobage and so I appreciate it in others.
I got an account so I'll dink with it and see how to do the rest.
Tobie
Bob King
Excellent. also friend msboudoir, from family contacts.