Problems with identity, not wanting to be id-ed as a "submissive"....
Dragonfly
And I`ve been surprisingly unwilling to email the woman who runs the social
group for sub women only. My Master`s been trying to encourage me to,
although I can see he`s doing his best to NOT be pushy. He talked to me
about it before he left on a trip for a few days, last night. I woke up
this morning to the card with the woman`s email address that she gave us
sitting on top of my computer, a clear message to me at least. He wants me
to go, very much. And it is as clear to me that I don`t want to, now, and I
think I`ve finally figured out why. Just why I feel that way, I`ve not a
clue, and I could definitely be wrong about why.
He`s not here to talk to, and it would be nice if I could actually figure
something out on my OWN for once :/ When it comes to D/s stuff, I usually
end up twisting myself into knots trying to understand and pretty much get
nowhere... Its not a part of me I`m very good at analyzing.
That said, here`s why I think I`m so unwanting to go. I think it has to do
with not wanting to be identified as A submissive woman. I don`t mind being
labelled a lot of other things (and have had many labels without such
problems), but this one sets me on edge. I don`t want it close to me, I
don`t want to be part of a group that`ll have me labelled that way, I don`t
want that label to have any part of my identity. Something he said before
he left, last time we talked about it got me to wondering if that was part
of the problem: he said I certainly didn`t have to BE submissive to anyone
but him (and even that is debatable if I wanted it to be!). But, if I
attend a group for sub women only, then ... I kind of have to BE one of
those, and I don`t want to be. I`ll be damned if anyone else gets me
submissive in any way at all, except for him. I do NOT want to be even
CLOSE to acting submissive to anyone else, not even just calling other doms
Sir or whatever, don`t want to, makes me feel grrr upset to even consider
it. He`d asked me to be so polite, demure he said, when we went to the
munch, and I couldn`t. I was nervous as hell, but I didn`t .... want to do
those things a sub aparently is expected to do among such company. And I
don`t think I could just ignore this and go on like nothing`s wrong, because
my feelings are VERY strong about this.
I readily admit that he`s right about such a social group of submissive
women being a GOOD resource for me, there`s a lot they could do for me that
he simply can`t and I would definitely benefit. But, getting around this
terrible sense of ... blah, whatever this is, doesn`t seem possible. Why
would it bother me so much, why wouldn`t I want to be identified as a sub
woman, when that really is what I am? I`ve no objection to his calling me
that, its thrilling when he does. But anyone else and I get that furious
"want to rip their heads off" type of reaction, which now that I think of it
is the same angry reaction I`ve had with every single other "dom" type I`ve
ever met who`s tried to trip the submission button in me...
Its got me very upset, mainly because he`s right about why I should go, he`s
asked me to email her and go to the next group meeting, and right now I
simply have a much too negative reaction to it to be able to... Obviously,
he and I will be talking about it when he gets back, but I wish I could find
a way to get myself ok with this before he does, or at least be able to say
why I`m reacting so badly to it.
Dragonfly
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> I do NOT want to be even CLOSE to acting submissive to anyone else, not
> even just calling other doms Sir or whatever, don`t want to, makes me feel
> grrr upset to even consider it.
My basic thought on this boils down to: Then don't.
Which is probably extremely unhelpful.
Someone identifying as a dom doesn't give them any particular status
with me. It doesn't entitle them to bonus respect or special treatment.
Said people are not doing power work with *me*, and unless they've
negotiated with me about it they're not going to get unearned deference.
This is basic "I may be a sub, but I'm not _your_ sub" to me. Someone
who says they're a dom may be a genuine, experienced person in their
local BDSM culture, or they may be like the crazed idiots who go around
claiming domliness over anyone who notes being a sub (and plenty of
folks who don't) in the hope that someone will be credulous to fall for
it; either way, it doesn't matter to whether or not they get my respect.
What gets my respect is knowledge, perspective, the willingness to share
wisdom, civility, and not treating me as axiomatically in power
relationship with them. It doesn't get my submission, which is not
available for trade.
Mind, I can't say I have overmuch contact with BDSM culture in general,
as I don't do munches, play parties, or the like. I read, I hang out
places like here where that sort of special treatment isn't expected; if
it's common for that sort of relationship to be presumed (by people who
aren't idiots; I understand that it's common among idiots) I wouldn't
know.
- Darkhawk, used to be the top google hit for
the phrase 'uppity minion'
--
Darkhawk - H. A. Nicoll - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
They are one person, they are two alone
They are three together, they are for each other
- "Helplessly Hoping", Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young
sickpuppy
Dragonfly wrote:
> So that munch I went to was good, haven`t been to a second one yet, though.
> And I`ve been surprisingly unwilling to email the woman who runs the social
> group for sub women only.
> I do NOT want to be even
> CLOSE to acting submissive to anyone else, not even just calling other doms
> Sir or whatever, don`t want to, makes me feel grrr upset to even consider
> it. He`d asked me to be so polite, demure he said, when we went to the
> munch, and I couldn`t. I was nervous as hell, but I didn`t .... want to do
> those things a sub aparently is expected to do among such company. And I
> don`t think I could just ignore this and go on like nothing`s wrong, because
> my feelings are VERY strong about this.
[...]
i think i would have the same reaction. but, i think that based only on
what i have observed in similar-sounding groups in my area. have you
observed behaviors among these people that seem to indicate a...group
think or culture that makes you uncomfortable? for my example: at one
local group everyone entering was asked to apply a name tag. okay,
normal so far. except for the fact that you had to pick a color of tag
based on your orientation and there are only two colors. i found that
silly and then offensive. why is my orientation important in a casual
social setting? what if i am not so easily defined? what if i just
don't give a flying fig if the person i'm sitting next to is submissive
and certainly don't want the fuckwit with Lord Such and So written on
his name tag to get any ideas about what he can expect from me? based
on what i overheard and saw at that gathering for the hour we were
there, i didn't think i could spend two minutes in a room full of those
particular women (and oh yes, you can betcha every "sub" was female)
without committing non-con breath control. on myself. so my attending
would not have benefitted me or my partner in the slightest. i have no
issue with protocol, in settings and with people in which i know it is
expected and appropriate and...i dunno, earned? it is actually quite a
comforting and comfortable setting to be in. but for me, being around
a group of people who expected me (or anyone) to avoid looking any
given "dom" in the eyes (oh i'm quite serious, sadly) simply based on
the color of a name tag was unlikely to be productive for anyone other
than my pharmacist.
> I readily admit that he`s right about such a social group of
submissive
> women being a GOOD resource for me, there`s a lot they could do for me that
> he simply can`t and I would definitely benefit. [...]
okay, what do you want from this sort of group? in what ways do you
both expect they could benefit you? maybe if you can nail this down
you could nail down some of the source of the discomfort. it could be
that you won't be able to find that among these particular people at
this time and maybe you just get that vibe from these women, as i did.
in re-reading what i wrote up there, it sounded quite judgemental.
like i don't think their kiok. it is. they certainly seem to enjoy
themselves. and perhaps had i had to give the submissive women's group
a go i would have found some sensible, clueful people. so perhaps you
could attempt to negotiate a compromise of sorts. if it is important to
him that you give it a try, maybe see if he will allow you an out
after a certain number of meetings. that would probably give you ample
time and exposure to decide if they really do have anything to offer
you, or if not the group as a whole, one or two of the other women.
chances are at least one other person is as sincere and questing as you
seem as well as chafing under the expectation of demure or whatever.
sp, so not demure
Technobarbarian
"Dragonfly" <mars_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4n8vpfF...@individual.net...
>
> That said, here`s why I think I`m so unwanting to go. I think it has to
> do with not wanting to be identified as A submissive woman. I don`t mind
> being labelled a lot of other things (and have had many labels without
> such problems), but this one sets me on edge. I don`t want it close to
> me, I don`t want to be part of a group that`ll have me labelled that way,
> I don`t want that label to have any part of my identity. Something he
> said before he left, last time we talked about it got me to wondering if
> that was part of the problem: he said I certainly didn`t have to BE
> submissive to anyone but him (and even that is debatable if I wanted it to
> be!). But, if I attend a group for sub women only, then ... I kind of
> have to BE one of those, and I don`t want to be. I`ll be damned if anyone
> else gets me submissive in any way at all, except for him. I do NOT want
> to be even CLOSE to acting submissive to anyone else, not even just
> calling other doms Sir or whatever, don`t want to, makes me feel grrr
> upset to even consider it. He`d asked me to be so polite, demure he said,
> when we went to the munch, and I couldn`t. I was nervous as hell, but I
> didn`t .... want to do those things a sub aparently is expected to do
> among such company. And I don`t think I could just ignore this and go on
> like nothing`s wrong, because my feelings are VERY strong about this.
I have this mental image of about a dozen of us furiously pounding on
our keyboards.
There's something wrong here and it's nothing wrong with you. I'm a Dom.
I do not expect any submissive except my submissive to defer to me in any
way. With all other submissives I only expect them to be themselves. I don't
expect anyone to call me sir. My sub does. Some other subs do. When they do
I find it flattering. I do not expect my sub to call anyone sir
automatically . She calls some people sir out of respect. In fact, with
people she respects it just pops out. With other people wild horses could
not drag it out of her. Fortunately we agree on who falls in which category,
but it would not matter to me if we didn't.
There is no standard way subs are expected to act. I know a number of
people whose orientation I would not know except for observing their
interaction with their significant others. Even then there can sometimes be
room for doubt about exactly what the nature of the relationship is. It
doesn't bother me a bit. With the exception of the people who have agreed to
submit to me I don't expect being a Dom to earn me any special privileges.
Doms who do annoy me. [General rule of thumb: the people who most expect
automatic respect are usually the least deserving of respect.] It's sounds
like you and your Dom need to have a chat. You may have hit one of your
limits. It shouldn't be any problem. First and foremost I expect my sub to
be herself. If this group is really imposing a standard of conduct on subs
they might not be the group for you. They certainly would not be a group
that I could enjoy. Having someone call me sir simply because I
self-identify as a Dom is not flattering, particularly when I hear that same
sub call someone I figure is a horse's ass sir.
TB
TB
RubyRed
Dragonfly wrote:
>I certainly didn`t have to BE submissive to anyone
> but him (and even that is debatable if I wanted it to be!). But, if I
> attend a group for sub women only, then ... I kind of have to BE one of
> those, and I don`t want to be. I`ll be damned if anyone else gets me
> submissive in any way at all, except for him. I do NOT want to be even
> CLOSE to acting submissive to anyone else, not even just calling other doms
> Sir or whatever, don`t want to, makes me feel grrr upset to even consider
> it.
I completely understand what you're saying, I think. I'm a very strong
person in everyday life. I'm a single mom, have been since the kid was
born, always been on my own with no support. I do not take crap from
anyone, ever.
But when I met my Dom, he was everything I've always wanted in a
partner. I'm willing to do anything for him, but only for him. He likes
that I can stand up for myself but lie down for him. Only him. I will
never submit to anyone else while we are together. But that's just us.
>why wouldn`t I want to be identified as a sub woman, when that really is what I am? >I`ve no objection to his calling me that, its thrilling when he does. But anyone else >and I get that furious "want to rip their heads off" type of reaction,
Is it really who you are? Or who you are for only that special person?
If you are submissive for and to him only, there's nothing wrong with
that.
This is just my opinion and since I'm new to this, I guess that doesn't
mean all that much. But I do know that everyone is different and no one
should be made to feel like they have to live up to certain standards.
Do what you feel is best, talk with him about it, maybe find a mutual
agreement on the issue. But remember that you are still your own person
and just because you are his sub doesn't mean that you are everyones
sub, just his.
sev (Cheryl Trooskin)
[...regarding resistance to being labelled a submissive woman...]
> Its got me very upset, mainly because he`s right about why I should go, he`s
> asked me to email her and go to the next group meeting, and right now I
> simply have a much too negative reaction to it to be able to... Obviously,
> he and I will be talking about it when he gets back, but I wish I could find
> a way to get myself ok with this before he does, or at least be able to say
> why I`m reacting so badly to it.
Personally, I don't identify as a submissive woman. Technically, I'm a
switch. Socially, I'm more likely to identify as a bottom. The fact
that I happen to submit, sometimes, to someone (or even more than one),
isn't really anybody's business when we're at the level of a social
function.
Now, whether that particular self-identification would allow me entrance
into the group meeting you're thinking about? I don't know. Were I
running a group for submissive women, and someone came and said "I'm a
female bottom who submits to my partner", that'd be good enough for me.
sev
--
*** s...@byz.org can also be found at http://www.byz.org/~sev ***
"What the eye does not see,
the heart does not grieve over, does it?"
-- Shaffer
Technobarbarian
"sev (Cheryl Trooskin)" <s...@byz.org> wrote in message
news:slrneguq...@blood.byz.org...
> Personally, I don't identify as a submissive woman. Technically, I'm a
> switch. Socially, I'm more likely to identify as a bottom. The fact
> that I happen to submit, sometimes, to someone (or even more than one),
> isn't really anybody's business when we're at the level of a social
> function.
>
> Now, whether that particular self-identification would allow me entrance
> into the group meeting you're thinking about? I don't know. Were I
> running a group for submissive women, and someone came and said "I'm a
> female bottom who submits to my partner", that'd be good enough for me.
I can only speak for the local group, but that would work just fine
here. Because both groups meet at the same time you wouldn't be able to sit
down with the Doms until the next time it came around on the calender, but
here a switch could also meet with the Doms without having anyone make a big
deal of it. All we ask is that people select the group or groups that are
appropriate for their identity.
TB
nadi
a munch. And if you are expected to be, it sounds like that is not the
right munch group for you. I have met submissive women who are witty,
talkative, intelligent, opinionated, assertive, or even rude and
obnoxious. In public, at parties. But to their Masters they are
perfectly submissive and both be themselves and also show their respect
to the one they are devoted to. To me, that is a far more admirable
than being always demure and undiscriminatingly submissive to anyone.
If you are submissive to every Dom you meet it suggests there is
nothing unique about your submission to your Master - he is no more
than anyone else. And if you are always perfectly demure and subdued,
I would wonder if you are simply playing a role. To show that you are
*your own person* AND submitting yourself AS that person shows true
committment to him, and earns far more respect for your relationship,
IMHO.
Dragonfly wrote:
> that, its thrilling when he does. But anyone else and I get that furious
> "want to rip their heads off" type of reaction, which now that I think of it
> is the same angry reaction I`ve had with every single other "dom" type I`ve
> ever met who`s tried to trip the submission button in me...
It sounds like your sense of people expecting you to act a certain way
- people who have no right to dictate your behaviour - reminds you of
other "doms" who have manipulated and treated you badly in the past.
You have every right to feel angry at anyone who tries to make you
adhere to a certain way of behaving when you have not agreed to give
them that power.
> That said, here`s why I think I`m so unwanting to go. I think it has to do
> with not wanting to be identified as A submissive woman. I don`t mind being
> labelled a lot of other things (and have had many labels without such
> problems), but this one sets me on edge. I don`t want it close to me, I
> don`t want to be part of a group that`ll have me labelled that way, I don`t
> want that label to have any part of my identity.
Sounds as though the "submissive" label implies to you that you have to
accept people other than your Master having power over you. Obviously
you know that isn't true, or you wouldn't be reacting so strongly to it
- you seem very sure of yourself on the point that he is the only one
who you will submit to, and that is a very good thing for you and him.
The way you are feeling seems perfectly understandable to me. You have
had people try and abuse your submissiveness in the past, and because
of that experience it is important to you to have very firm boundaries.
Only your Master has the right to hold power over you, because you
have chosen to give it to him, and only him. You are sure on the fact
that you cannot accept anyone else trying to tell you how you should
behave.
Trouble is, this is a reaction against some disrespectful, dom-wannabe
morons who treated you bad in the past, and they are now stopping you
from joining a group of supportive, like-minded women who you know can
be very helpful to you. These women won't ask you to submit to them or
anyone else. They aren't there to tell you how to behave. Many of
them have probably had similar experiences to you, and many probably
also struggle to handle the pressure to be submissive to people who
have not earned the right to demand it of them.
It seems to me that the dilemma is not about the group, but about you
needing to be sure that your identity in your relationship with you
Master is well-defined, so you can feel safe. You are not "a
submissive" you are "HIS submissive". That is just as, if not more,
valid and acceptable.
I hope you can find a way to be strong, be yourself, and go along to
the group on your own terms. I have a feeling they will learn just as
much from you, as you will from them.
nadi xx
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> To show that you are
> *your own person* AND submitting yourself AS that person shows true
> committment to him, and earns far more respect for your relationship,
> IMHO.
I think this is excellently put.
As I believe I've commented before, when my lover and I started
negotiating the d/s portions of our relationship, his primary concern
was that I be certain to remain myself and not be rendered lesser by my
allegiance to him.
- Darkhawk, synergistically
Dragonfly
"sickpuppy" <alittl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1158633403.9...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> i think i would have the same reaction. but, i think that based only on
> what i have observed in similar-sounding groups in my area. have you
> observed behaviors among these people that seem to indicate a...group
> think or culture that makes you uncomfortable? for my example: at one
> local group everyone entering was asked to apply a name tag. okay,
> normal so far. except for the fact that you had to pick a color of tag
> based on your orientation and there are only two colors. i found that
> silly and then offensive. why is my orientation important in a casual
> social setting? what if i am not so easily defined? what if i just
> don't give a flying fig if the person i'm sitting next to is submissive
> and certainly don't want the fuckwit with Lord Such and So written on
> his name tag to get any ideas about what he can expect from me? based
> on what i overheard and saw at that gathering for the hour we were
> there, i didn't think i could spend two minutes in a room full of those
> particular women (and oh yes, you can betcha every "sub" was female)
> without committing non-con breath control. on myself. so my attending
> would not have benefitted me or my partner in the slightest. i have no
> issue with protocol, in settings and with people in which i know it is
> expected and appropriate and...i dunno, earned? it is actually quite a
> comforting and comfortable setting to be in. but for me, being around
> a group of people who expected me (or anyone) to avoid looking any
> given "dom" in the eyes (oh i'm quite serious, sadly) simply based on
> the color of a name tag was unlikely to be productive for anyone other
> than my pharmacist.
*grins* ..... *laughs!* There was no such expectation, from the group I
went to. Thankfully. This seems to be a good group of people, and just
what they expect of subs there I couldn't tell after one meeting. But I
think he was mostly wanting us to be hmm... "normal" insofar as me fitting
the general subbish type, whereas when its just me and him, I tend towards
being rude and pushy and the like.
> > I readily admit that he`s right about such a social group of
> submissive
>> women being a GOOD resource for me, there`s a lot they could do for me
>> that
>> he simply can`t and I would definitely benefit. [...]
>
> okay, what do you want from this sort of group? in what ways do you
> both expect they could benefit you?
I can only guess at why he wants me to go, it never occured to me to ask...
Now that you mention it, I suppose I should ask him. I *suspect* that he's
looking for me to not have to rely only on HIS opinion of what a submissive
woman is like, that I get different ideas and beliefs and ways of be-ing
from others not just for what I might be, but for how a D/s dynamic might
work for others. Aside from this newsgroup, he's the only kinky person I
know that's not er, abusive and mentally broken in some way. I also suspect
that he thinks it might help me rid myself of my own sense of shame and
wrongness, faster than just with him...
What do I want? At the moment, absolutely nothing. I am not a social
creature, strangers terrify me, and I very very rarely make new friends. I
suspect that I might enjoy some female friends up here, who I don`t have to
censor myself with, but for now I`m much more comfortable not knowing
anyone. Left to my own self, I`m doubtful that I`d ever meet anyone new
except through the classes I take. And even then, I never befriend any of
the other students.
> maybe if you can nail this down
> you could nail down some of the source of the discomfort. it could be
> that you won't be able to find that among these particular people at
> this time and maybe you just get that vibe from these women, as i did.
> in re-reading what i wrote up there, it sounded quite judgemental.
> like i don't think their kiok. it is.
Not judgemental, though definitely a strong "not for me" type :D I think I
understood what you were trying to say. I got none of that from these
women, they were friendly and nice and interested in me. I just personally
don`t ..... *shrugs* don`t know. Don`t want to try, perhaps. Though this
is more than social phobia, that I know for certain.
One thing I do know, even before we went to the general gathering, I was
having a hard time. Finally, I figured out part of the problem. Master and
I are both poly, its one of the reasons we`re so comfortable with each
other. But, I absolutely do NOT want another dom, besides which my
intuition on who`s ok and who isn`t is still more broken than not. I got a
lot more comfortable with being there after I asked and he agreed that if
anyone showed interest in *me* and playing with me, that I could tell them
to go talk to him first. After that, it was much easier to relax. Not that
anyone would, but the idea of being approached like that was too much for
me, I suppose.
But that doesn`t explain the problem with a sub women`s group. No doms
there, male or female.
>they certainly seem to enjoy
> themselves. and perhaps had i had to give the submissive women's group
> a go i would have found some sensible, clueful people. so perhaps you
> could attempt to negotiate a compromise of sorts. if it is important to
> him that you give it a try, maybe see if he will allow you an out
> after a certain number of meetings. that would probably give you ample
> time and exposure to decide if they really do have anything to offer
> you, or if not the group as a whole, one or two of the other women.
> chances are at least one other person is as sincere and questing as you
> seem as well as chafing under the expectation of demure or whatever.
There`s no doubt that if it harmed me in any way (and getting too upset or
distraught counts as harm), then I won`t continue going. In any case, even
if he wasn`t so caring as to mind whether I`m alright or not, he`d still be
the one having to "clean up the mess" of my getting upset :) So, no such
worries. Its getting me to even the first meeting, even just sending the
woman the email, that I can`t seem to do.
> sp, so not demure
Heh, I can`t spell it either. No matter.
I think as far as his asking for a specific behaviour from me, its more
asking me to fit his image of a properly submissive girl for *him*. He`s
yet to actually chastize me enough to make me want to behave, and I`ve had a
wonderful time running right over him. He`ll get the hint eventually and
get harsh enough to put me in my place. I think he knows that, he`s
certainly got a much better idea of what`s going on. But in a public place,
meeting others for the first time, its understandable that he`d want me to
behave better than I do at home with just him.
Dragonfly
Troia
Couldn't agree more.
Look at it this way: which would a Master rather own, someone weak and
helpless, or someone strong and capable? Which would you rather have
bent to your will, an easy conquest who will obey just-about-anyone, or
someone who submits only to you?
The idea that submissives need to be docile doormats to the world is ...
well ... I will avoid being rude here (I hope) but it just does not fit
the reality.
-- Troia
Dragonfly
"Technobarbarian" <Technobarbar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qMIPg.21015$RD.2268@fed1read08...
>
> I have this mental image of about a dozen of us furiously pounding on
> our keyboards.
*grins* careful, that could start hurting... :D
> There's something wrong here and it's nothing wrong with you. I'm a
> Dom. I do not expect any submissive except my submissive to defer to me in
> any way. With all other submissives I only expect them to be themselves. I
> don't expect anyone to call me sir. My sub does. Some other subs do. When
> they do I find it flattering. I do not expect my sub to call anyone sir
> automatically . She calls some people sir out of respect. In fact, with
> people she respects it just pops out. With other people wild horses could
> not drag it out of her. Fortunately we agree on who falls in which
> category, but it would not matter to me if we didn't.
I think I misrepresented.... it wasn`t the group expecting a certain
behaviour, it was my dom. And though I can understand why he did, it didn`t
work as well as we would have liked because its the first time he ever made
such demands of me. Whatever others think of subs doesn`t seem to matter
nearly as much as what he thinks of me...
> There is no standard way subs are expected to act. I know a number of
> people whose orientation I would not know except for observing their
> interaction with their significant others. Even then there can sometimes
> be room for doubt about exactly what the nature of the relationship is. It
> doesn't bother me a bit. With the exception of the people who have agreed
> to submit to me I don't expect being a Dom to earn me any special
> privileges. Doms who do annoy me. [General rule of thumb: the people who
> most expect automatic respect are usually the least deserving of respect.]
> It's sounds like you and your Dom need to have a chat. You may have hit
> one of your limits. It shouldn't be any problem. First and foremost I
> expect my sub to be herself. If this group is really imposing a standard
> of conduct on subs they might not be the group for you. They certainly
> would not be a group that I could enjoy. Having someone call me sir simply
> because I self-identify as a Dom is not flattering, particularly when I
> hear that same sub call someone I figure is a horse's ass sir.
He and I definitely do need to talk... especially if he expects me to behave
like that again, because its not generally in my nature to act respectful
towards *him*. While in private it doesn`t matter, if it does matter in
public then he and I need to spend some time actively teaching me how to act
because I just can`t do it on my own.
I think he was mostly aiming for a respectful attitude from me, for people
we didn`t know and were just meeting. As far as being myself, well, I think
that`s a big reason why he wants me to go to the women`s group, because I
don`t know myself. I used to, but a certain person spent too long twisting
me for me to remember who I was. Discovering who I am now might prove to be
a bit difficult if all I have to go on is what he thinks of me and how he
sees me. Being an incredibly smart man, I`m sure he figures that and very
likely its one of his motivations in pushing at me to go to the group. The
more people I know in this lifestyle, the less dependent on his beliefs and
desires...???? If that makes any sense?
I`m twisting myself up, I can see this. I make no sense to myself. grrph.
My apologies. Its my own lack of experience and inability to think clearly
about things related to D/s, I think.
Dragonfly
Dragonfly
"RubyRed" <ruby...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158635587....@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> I completely understand what you're saying, I think. I'm a very strong
> person in everyday life. I'm a single mom, have been since the kid was
> born, always been on my own with no support. I do not take crap from
> anyone, ever.
I survived a childhood that would give adults nightmares... I raised my
baby brother on my own, for the most part, and he`s only 5 years younger.
Got myself and a few friends out of nasty spots, was always the one with a
job and money and stability, yep, the strong one that everyone else came to
for a shoulder to cry on and advice and help. Always. Had I known about
D/s before, I`d have assumed I was a dominant type. If you`d have told me 5
years ago that I`d give power to someone like this, I`d have thought you`d
lost your mind :)
> But when I met my Dom, he was everything I've always wanted in a
> partner. I'm willing to do anything for him, but only for him. He likes
> that I can stand up for myself but lie down for him. Only him. I will
> never submit to anyone else while we are together. But that's just us.
Same here, though before I met him, I met another man who was a sadistic
monster and strong enough to reshape me into what he considered the "perfect
little girl", just about a year or so after I`d started figuring out just
what was going on in those dreams of mine I`d been having since puberty...
Which of course, only made me swear I`d never let anyone have such power
over me. In meeting my love, its made me come face to face with all the
dreams I used to have, and forced me to realize that being his is definitely
a dream come true in every way. I`m still not quite settled with the whole
idea of belonging to him, though it`s easier and easier to stop worrying
about it. There`s no less strength in me for having a Master. In fact, as
far as I`m concerned, its taken far more strength to submit to him than it
took dominating the girlfriends I used to have :) harder, in a way, though
it feels much more like the real me. If that makes any sense. I certainly
don`t act out like a strong, dominant woman, I`m more of the quiet "don`t
fuck with me" type, so its less visibly noticable. But that inherent
strength of mine and the absolute *need* for it most of my life certainly
can be part of the reason why I`d object to being seen as a submissive
woman, especially if the typical attitude is that a sub is "weaker".
>>why wouldn`t I want to be identified as a sub woman, when that really is
>>what I am? >I`ve no objection to his calling me that, its thrilling when
>>he does. But anyone else >and I get that furious "want to rip their heads
>>off" type of reaction,
>
> Is it really who you are? Or who you are for only that special person?
> If you are submissive for and to him only, there's nothing wrong with
> that.
>
> This is just my opinion and since I'm new to this, I guess that doesn't
> mean all that much. But I do know that everyone is different and no one
> should be made to feel like they have to live up to certain standards.
> Do what you feel is best, talk with him about it, maybe find a mutual
> agreement on the issue. But remember that you are still your own person
> and just because you are his sub doesn't mean that you are everyones
> sub, just his.
Or maybe... just because I am *his* sub doesn`t mean that I`ll EVER be
submissive to anyone else...??? I think perhaps that is what I am wanting,
this idea that he and ONLY he can induce the desire to submit in me. I
think there`s a sense of security in believing that I am not in actuality a
submissive woman, that in fact it is one of those "near-impossible" things
that just happened to involve the one person I have been getting very close
to, but is so unlikely as to never happen with aniyone else.
He is the only "dom" type I`ve met who hasn`t been agressive, rude,
demanding, and impatient with me, so perhaps if I get over this hump of not
knowing any other kind D/s people, I`ll stop wanting to avoid calling myself
a submissive woman...?
Hey, just because you`re new to this doesn`t mean that your opinion is worth
any less! Years and years ago, I had some very definite opinions on what
D/s was supposed to be like, in spite of having never experienced it... Its
all individual.
Dragonfly
Stephanie Moore-Fuller
> That said, here`s why I think I`m so unwanting to go. I think it has to do
> with not wanting to be identified as A submissive woman. I don`t mind being
> labelled a lot of other things (and have had many labels without such
> problems), but this one sets me on edge. I don`t want it close to me, I
> don`t want to be part of a group that`ll have me labelled that way, I don`t
> want that label to have any part of my identity. Something he said before
> he left, last time we talked about it got me to wondering if that was part
> of the problem: he said I certainly didn`t have to BE submissive to anyone
> but him (and even that is debatable if I wanted it to be!). But, if I
> attend a group for sub women only, then ... I kind of have to BE one of
> those, and I don`t want to be. I`ll be damned if anyone else gets me
> submissive in any way at all, except for him. I do NOT want to be even
> CLOSE to acting submissive to anyone else, not even just calling other doms
> Sir or whatever, don`t want to, makes me feel grrr upset to even consider
> it. He`d asked me to be so polite, demure he said, when we went to the
> munch, and I couldn`t. I was nervous as hell, but I didn`t .... want to do
> those things a sub aparently is expected to do among such company. And I
> don`t think I could just ignore this and go on like nothing`s wrong, because
> my feelings are VERY strong about this.
Well in my world, and at every munch I've attended, there was definately no
requirement or even request that any bottom or submissive call any top or
dominant "sir" or "ma'am" or any such thing. In fact, were anyone to
request such a thing, from someone who was not *their* submissive, they
would be laughed out of the munch, or else thought an idiot, or more
likely both.
However, that only solves the munch part of it, it doesn't help the going
to a group for submissive women part of it. Because it seems to me that
you do have to, at some level, take on that identity, at least for a couple
of hours, to go to that group. Although -- is the group open to women
who switch? You might be able to calm down that part of your head by
identifying as a woman who switches. Just an idea. Or the group may
be open to women who are 'questioning' their identity, and haven't yet
settled on one. I would check that out as well.
Good luck!
stephanie
--
Stephanie Moore-Fuller smoo...@blackrose.org Mountain View, CA, USA
"He who fears he shall suffer, already suffers what he fears."
-- Michel De Montaigne
Dragonfly
> switch. Socially, I'm more likely to identify as a bottom. The fact
> that I happen to submit, sometimes, to someone (or even more than one),
> isn't really anybody's business when we're at the level of a social
> function.
Well, in my case, through trial and error, and talk with my love, its become
clear to me that I am not at all a switch. Whether I`m actually submissive
(to anyone but him) I think is what I`d rather not think about....
> Now, whether that particular self-identification would allow me entrance
> into the group meeting you're thinking about? I don't know. Were I
> running a group for submissive women, and someone came and said "I'm a
> female bottom who submits to my partner", that'd be good enough for me.
The group is designed specifically as a support/social gathering that seems
to be meant for the participants to become good friends, and no doms are
allowed at all. I think a self-proclaimed switch wouldn`t be very welcome
either, but I can`t be sure, I`ve not asked. But I`m fairly certain that a
female bottom would be more than welcome. I think the idea is to create
space where there is no "dom" types at all, perhaps to create a safe
environment to discuss problems or situations that might be difficult to
discuss if there were dominant types included.... *shrugs*
They already know I`m *his*, even if my collar didn`t make it obvious :)
And I have been specifically, personally invited to the group by both the
lady who runs the group, and one of the women that attends... I think my
problem is more with solidifying the idea of me being a submissive at all by
attending. Kind of like hmm... not sure if I can think of an example...
For example, let`s say I knit scarves during the dark winter months, but
knitting scarves is a very un-me thing to do. Still, doing it in my own
home, or among friends doesn`t bother me too much, they aren`t likely to
think less of me for it. But I`d never go to a knitting group, because then
I would be a "knitter", and for some reason or other, it bothers me to be
called a knitter, makes me feel less something that I find important.... if
that makes sense. It doesn`t to me, not really.
Dragonfly .... confused.
Dragonfly
That`s it exactly. You hit it dead on. I`ll reply below to what you said,
but I was hoping you`d be ok with me printing this out to save and show my
Master? I could never express this, but I think its exactly right.
"nadi" <nado...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158640133.1...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> You don't need to be submissive to anyone else in order to socialise at
> a munch. And if you are expected to be, it sounds like that is not the
> right munch group for you. I have met submissive women who are witty,
> talkative, intelligent, opinionated, assertive, or even rude and
> obnoxious. In public, at parties. But to their Masters they are
> perfectly submissive and both be themselves and also show their respect
> to the one they are devoted to. To me, that is a far more admirable
> than being always demure and undiscriminatingly submissive to anyone.
> If you are submissive to every Dom you meet it suggests there is
> nothing unique about your submission to your Master - he is no more
> than anyone else. And if you are always perfectly demure and subdued,
> I would wonder if you are simply playing a role. To show that you are
> *your own person* AND submitting yourself AS that person shows true
> committment to him, and earns far more respect for your relationship,
> IMHO.
There is definitely a specific behaviour he wants out of me in public places
where we`re allowed to be Master and sub, which is fine with me as long as I
know what`s expected.... but, from what you say, I react badly to the being
"submissive to every Dom you meet", and perhaps I equate being polite,
demure, respectful, whatever as being submissive, when the one I`m supposed
to be that to is another dom. If we had been going to a social gathering of
say, the editors and other journalists for the magasines he writes, and had
asked the same of me, I doubt I`d have had any problems with it. I`m fully
capable of being polite, respectful, charming, and ... that very feminine
thing ah, don`t have a word for it, without loosing any sense of myself at
all, somehow, unless I know the person facing me is a dom. Then, I can`t.
> Dragonfly wrote:
>> that, its thrilling when he does. But anyone else and I get that furious
>> "want to rip their heads off" type of reaction, which now that I think of
>> it
>> is the same angry reaction I`ve had with every single other "dom" type
>> I`ve
>> ever met who`s tried to trip the submission button in me...
>
> It sounds like your sense of people expecting you to act a certain way
> - people who have no right to dictate your behaviour - reminds you of
> other "doms" who have manipulated and treated you badly in the past.
> You have every right to feel angry at anyone who tries to make you
> adhere to a certain way of behaving when you have not agreed to give
> them that power.
yees... except that these people asked nothing of me, he did. And there
were no expectations of me like that, though I see I certainly acted or felt
like there were. I`m seeing that I am not nearly as "over" the fake-doms
than I thought I was. sigh.
>> That said, here`s why I think I`m so unwanting to go. I think it has to
>> do
>> with not wanting to be identified as A submissive woman. I don`t mind
>> being
>> labelled a lot of other things (and have had many labels without such
>> problems), but this one sets me on edge. I don`t want it close to me, I
>> don`t want to be part of a group that`ll have me labelled that way, I
>> don`t
>> want that label to have any part of my identity.
>
> Sounds as though the "submissive" label implies to you that you have to
> accept people other than your Master having power over you. Obviously
> you know that isn't true, or you wouldn't be reacting so strongly to it
> - you seem very sure of yourself on the point that he is the only one
> who you will submit to, and that is a very good thing for you and him.
heh, yea. You`re right in that. In fact, he`s commented on how amusing it
would be to see, for example, the guy who`d tried so hard to make me submit
ages ago, and watch me rip him a new asshole for his arrogance. I couldn`t
do that before, but I`ve got all that stored-up anger against them all, and
a sense of devotion and respect to him that would make such a meeting very
interesting. Now that I`ve been collared, truly this time, by someone I
deeply respect, I can`t even conceive of the idea of letting anyone else
even so much as touch me with that kind of attitude without getting pissed
off, both at the arrogance such a person would have to have, and at the
insult to my Master.
> The way you are feeling seems perfectly understandable to me.
*see me half-smiling in exasperation* I`m glad it makes sense to Someone
.... :)
> You have
> had people try and abuse your submissiveness in the past, and because
> of that experience it is important to you to have very firm boundaries.
> Only your Master has the right to hold power over you, because you
> have chosen to give it to him, and only him. You are sure on the fact
> that you cannot accept anyone else trying to tell you how you should
> behave.
Yes, exactly. Finally, my choice, finally it is right and good, finally I`m
sure this is the one I want. You know, now that I think of it, he was the
only one who took the time to sit down with me and verbally ask me what I
wanted, before assuming anything from just my behaviour. I think that
respect of asking me probably is what made the entire relationship possible.
I don`t do well with any kind of assumptions, I guess.
> Trouble is, this is a reaction against some disrespectful, dom-wannabe
> morons who treated you bad in the past, and they are now stopping you
> from joining a group of supportive, like-minded women who you know can
> be very helpful to you. These women won't ask you to submit to them or
> anyone else. They aren't there to tell you how to behave. Many of
> them have probably had similar experiences to you, and many probably
> also struggle to handle the pressure to be submissive to people who
> have not earned the right to demand it of them.
Ah.... I think I see what you are getting at. And I think you`re right. I
hadn`t even considered this...
> It seems to me that the dilemma is not about the group, but about you
> needing to be sure that your identity in your relationship with you
> Master is well-defined, so you can feel safe. You are not "a
> submissive" you are "HIS submissive". That is just as, if not more,
> valid and acceptable.
You might just be right. It certainly fits, and it more than explains both
my strong reactions and my unwillingness to even email her, much less attend
the group. I am not just a submissive woman, I am his submissive.. that
implies that I`m not submissive to anyone except him, and also implies that
that type of identity is a very person-specific thing. Unlike, say, being a
pagan, I`m pagan to everyone I meet, it makes no difference who it is. But
I`m not submissive to everyone I meet.... A different form of identity, a
differently-applicable label.... I never thought of it like this.
> I hope you can find a way to be strong, be yourself, and go along to
> the group on your own terms. I have a feeling they will learn just as
> much from you, as you will from them.
>
> nadi xx
Heh, you`re probably right, if I ever get to where I`m comfortable enough to
be myself with them, its guaranteed to be interesting as long as they are
open-minded. I do hope he and I can make it possible for me to go. At
least, I think I have a much better idea of where to even begin working on
this now.
Thank you, ever so much!
Dragonfly -*ding* lightbulb :D
Dan Holzman
>
> Or maybe... just because I am *his* sub doesn`t mean that I`ll EVER be
> submissive to anyone else...??? I think perhaps that is what I am wanting,
> this idea that he and ONLY he can induce the desire to submit in me. I
> think there`s a sense of security in believing that I am not in actuality a
> submissive woman, that in fact it is one of those "near-impossible" things
> that just happened to involve the one person I have been getting very close
> to, but is so unlikely as to never happen with aniyone else.
I agree that the two of you need to talk about what you each want out of
this and what your concerns are.
I'll offer how things are between my slave and I for an example:
My slave submits to me in all aspects of her life. That includes our
interactions with other people. If I decide that someone can top her,
or fuck her, or whatever, it is me and not them to whom she is submitting.
My slave's behavior reflects on me. Because I want her to reflect well
on me, I require her to be polite to people. This does not mean
deferential, nor does it mean meek. In fact, someone trying to force
her into a submissive exchange with them will find themselves politely
but firmly told in no uncertain terms that their behavior is
unacceptable and will not be tolerated.
> He is the only "dom" type I`ve met who hasn`t been agressive, rude,
> demanding, and impatient with me, so perhaps if I get over this hump of not
> knowing any other kind D/s people, I`ll stop wanting to avoid calling myself
> a submissive woman...?
Perhaps some of the Dominants you're meeting in this space can help that?
Brian G.
response. It may be that you have had some bad experiences when young with
being held back, patronised, not had your opinions taken into account etc,
which angered you and now you are adult, you cannot go back and punch out
the people concerned.
Sorry to be so direct!
Its not going to be easy, and you may consider it not worth the effort, but
contacting this person is not going to commit you to anything, I'd probably
wager that your feelings are certainly not unusual, and if this person is
welcoming, you may find that either she, or others in that group are not
submissive all the time, and so are 'normal' people with issues and such,
just as you are.
Often, merely admitting to others that you have a submissive side can be
very difficult, as it almost seems like sitting them down in your play room
and inviting them to watch you!
My feelings here are that you are skirting around the edges, and need some
talking with others to see how the land lies, but if you don't feel good,
then be decisive and say, no way jose.
Brian
--
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Any opinions expressed above, are just that, opinions.
please add salt to taste.
Only my Eyes are blind....
switc...@blueyonder.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________________
"Dragonfly" <mars_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4n8vpfF...@individual.net...
Dragonfly
"Brian G." <switc...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6xMPg.21355$r61....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Hi, I do understand your feelings, but a lot of it is often a learned
> response. It may be that you have had some bad experiences when young with
> being held back, patronised, not had your opinions taken into account etc,
> which angered you and now you are adult, you cannot go back and punch out
> the people concerned.
>
> Sorry to be so direct!
Hey, with me, if you`re not direct I may completely miss what you`re trying
to say :D
You`re not far off, though its more of a "had to be strong, bold, out there"
and am not used to any label that comes anywhere near the stereotypes of a
typical submissive woman.
> Its not going to be easy, and you may consider it not worth the effort,
> but contacting this person is not going to commit you to anything, I'd
> probably wager that your feelings are certainly not unusual, and if this
> person is welcoming, you may find that either she, or others in that group
> are not submissive all the time, and so are 'normal' people with issues
> and such, just as you are.
Good point, and *very* likely part of his reasons for wanting me to go...
I`ll have to ask.
> Often, merely admitting to others that you have a submissive side can be
> very difficult, as it almost seems like sitting them down in your play
> room and inviting them to watch you!
And I`m a very private person... So yea that would be a pretty difficult
thing to overcome.
> My feelings here are that you are skirting around the edges, and need some
> talking with others to see how the land lies, but if you don't feel good,
> then be decisive and say, no way jose.
Heh, you are right, this is definitely the kind of thing I wish I could
"lurk" a bit before going, but no such luck with real-life, off-computer
groups.
In this case, its very likely that whether I feel good about it or not, he`s
not going to give me the option of not going at all. And he`s got the right
to do so, if he chooses to. I hope he doesn`t, but its not exactly
something I`ve control of, at least not the first meeting. I`ll have to
wait until he comes back tomorrow night, and er, after he`s finished
satisfying himself that every part of me still is in quite good shape
*grins*, and then I`ll ask him just what it is he`s expecting from me
attending this group, and see what he says.
Dragonfly -already feeling better about talking to him about this
Dragonfly
"Troia" <troia....@gmail.removethis.com> wrote in message
news:450f80ef$0$97265$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
> Couldn't agree more.
>
> Look at it this way: which would a Master rather own, someone weak and
> helpless, or someone strong and capable? Which would you rather have bent
> to your will, an easy conquest who will obey just-about-anyone, or someone
> who submits only to you?
>
> The idea that submissives need to be docile doormats to the world is ...
> well ... I will avoid being rude here (I hope) but it just does not fit
> the reality.
>
> -- Troia
...... *smiles* except my "strong and capable" usually invovles being
significantly more rude and obnoxious than either of us would want me to be
in front of others... :D but I agree. I think if I can agree on a level
beyond intellectually, and get the needed reassurance from him for that,
that it should be a lot easier to face the group. I`m far too emotional,
personality-wise, for an intellectual belief to affect me much, and its hard
to get myself to feel something beyond intellectually when it goes contrary
to most of my life experience.. :/
Dragonfly
Dragonfly
"Stephanie Moore-Fuller" <smoo...@petal.blackrose.org> wrote in message
news:slrnegv1mk....@petal.blackrose.org...
It would be hard to claim to be questioning my identity when they`ve already
seen me with my Master, and id-ing as a switch would only marginally be
better, but I think I get the idea of what you`re trying to say, and there
are certainly other ways to do it. I think a long, serious talk with him
about my identity, how he sees me and what words he uses, and how I see
myself and what words I might like to use for myself, might be in order. I
didn`t think I would have such a hard time with the words, it suddenly came
up when he started being more insistent about me attending the sub women`s
group.
I`m positive that both labels you mentioned, as well as anything I came up
with myself would be more than welcome in the group, attached to me at
least. We shall see. At least I`ve got some ideas now of where to take the
coming discussion with my Master about all this, instead of saying 'um it
bothers me and I don`t know why *cry*".
Thanks so much!
Dragonfly -off to bed for the night.
Troia
...
> Hey, with me, if you`re not direct I may completely miss what you`re trying
> to say :D
> You`re not far off, though its more of a "had to be strong, bold, out there"
> and am not used to any label that comes anywhere near the stereotypes of a
> typical submissive woman.
Stereotypes are just that. An awful lot of submissive women are strong,
independent, capable, outspoken, assertive (and even aggressive with
other than their Dom), etc. Your interaction with your Master is one
thing, but your interaction with the rest of the world is quite another.
You want to make him proud, I understand, but being a doormat won't make
him proud of you. Being your own person seems more likely to do so.
Also remember that you submit to his will even when you disagree (though
it sounds like he is good at hearing you out) but with the rest of the
world, you hold the right to your own opinion and to "argue" and fight
when you disagree with others; you are not expected to accept the will
of the *rest* of the world, and I doubt he would want you to.
> [brian wrote ...]
>> Its not going to be easy, and you may consider it not worth the effort,
>> but contacting this person is not going to commit you to anything, I'd
>> probably wager that your feelings are certainly not unusual, and if this
>> person is welcoming, you may find that either she, or others in that group
>> are not submissive all the time, and so are 'normal' people with issues
>> and such, just as you are.
>
> Good point, and *very* likely part of his reasons for wanting me to go...
> I`ll have to ask.
...
Yes, of course do talk it over with him. That is exactly what you
should do when you are in this sort of conflict.
I can see very good reason for his wanting you to go, however, and I
applaud it. It is important IMO to make connections with other
submissive women; it is something that I have felt as a great lack in
my own life, and something I hear from others who have as few
connections as I have. There is something very good in having those
connections with more experienced women, they can mentor and in a way
"mother" you, and can help you understand things in your own submissive
mind that your Master simply can't ever fully understand because his
mind doesn't work that way.
I suspect there will come a time that you are glad he made you do this.
-- Troia
Stephen Harris
> You`re not far off, though its more of a "had to be strong, bold, out there"
> and am not used to any label that comes anywhere near the stereotypes of a
> typical submissive woman.
Ignore the stereotypes. You are you; unique. Your submission is unique.
Your relationship is unique.
What _you_ and your dominant decide to call yourselves is all that
matters, and screw the rest of the world and their expectations of what
that label means. This was a major lesson for me to learn! I didn't
want to call myself "slave" because I didn't think I could live up to
the ideals that I'd seem others demonstrate. Eventually I realised that
I was in all but name and accepted the label. Tori later told me that
she'd known this all along but hadn't wanted to push me about it!
--
rgds, Stephen "Pleasure, little treasure"
An Englishman in New York, and loving slave to his Mistress, Tori.
BDSM thoughts, writings, poems and stuff: http://bdsm.spuddy.org/
Newsgroup charter, FAQs etc at http://bdsm.spuddy.org/newsgroups/
LadyGold
<mars_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>He is the only "dom" type I`ve met who hasn`t been agressive, rude,
>demanding, and impatient with me, so perhaps if I get over this hump of not
>knowing any other kind D/s people, I`ll stop wanting to avoid calling myself
>a submissive woman...?
Wow! I sure came back at a good time. This thread has some of the
best stuff bar none.
I had to pick up someplace and so I picked this. I could have chose
any of a dozen other paragraphs, though No kidding - this is a great
thread.
So - for those who don't know me, I am LadyGold (capital L, capital
G), High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB. Strong, assertive,
pushy, opinionated and submissive. So there! Deal.
In my almost never humble opinion, any Dom type who is agressive,
rude, demanding or impatient with anyone - does not deseve the title
Dominant. Some time ago I read a book called Aztec by Gary Jennings.
It's historical fiction and I really don't know how much is history
and how much is fiction. Matters not, it's a good read. The author
claimed that Aztec nobility was trained from childhood to *know* that
if they sat down there would be a chair for them - even if there had
not been one mere seconds before. That to me, is the way I expect a
Dom to behave. No bluster, no shouting, no rudeness. Just sitting
down and knowing a chair will be there.
"Good" Doms say please and thank you. They have no need to demand.
I don't go to our local submissives group. Partly because two of the
women most closely associated with it are people I greatly dislike.
Partly because I don't form close relationships with women in general.
I also don't go to the women's play parties even though I am bi and
poly and have been asked and asked. I play with women in mixed
groups, I just don't want to be with nothing but women.
I have several very good friends from online <waving> and one woman
locally who is turning out to be a good friend.
I think, though, that I am far enough from the normal submissive, as I
am far enough from my female peers in general that I just am not
interested in sitting around and chattering. Yes, that sounds elitest
- probably is. Deal.
Ruby, Dragonfly - welcome to sssb-b. You are definitely folks I will
be reading from now on.
LadyGold, High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB
Lumber Cartel # 2514 (tinc)
aka Taipan's dorei
P.S. More than once a "Dom" has said to Taipan, "I sure am glad she's
yours". You guessed it, Taipan always says, "Me too!"
--
Bad computer, no sig files!
LadyGold
<troia....@gmail.removethis.com> wrote:
>Look at it this way: which would a Master rather own, someone weak and
>helpless, or someone strong and capable? Which would you rather have
>bent to your will, an easy conquest who will obey just-about-anyone, or
>someone who submits only to you?
>
>The idea that submissives need to be docile doormats to the world is ...
>well ... I will avoid being rude here (I hope) but it just does not fit
>the reality.
The paradigm I prefer for my relationships is that of Captain and
Executive Officer. The Captain has the final say but the XO has lots
of (delegated) responsibilities and often speaks for the Captain.
And (sez the brat), "In the absence of orders to the contrary....."
I'll do what I please. <grin>
Brian Downstairs
cannot say you should do. For me, it would not include this sort of thing.
It has the potential to involve non consenting parties in your scene, in my
view, but as I say, I'm not you.
Brian
--
switc...@blueyonder.co.uk
Brian's private email.
Only my Eyes are blind...
Bring on the spam!
"Dragonfly" <mars_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4n9kn5F...@individual.net...
Dragonfly
"LadyGold" <ladygold....@planetarydefense.org> wrote in message
news:ghi0h2lso3knttqnb...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:54:32 -0700, "Dragonfly"
> <mars_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>He is the only "dom" type I`ve met who hasn`t been agressive, rude,
>>demanding, and impatient with me, so perhaps if I get over this hump of
>>not
>>knowing any other kind D/s people, I`ll stop wanting to avoid calling
>>myself
>>a submissive woman...?
>
> Wow! I sure came back at a good time. This thread has some of the
> best stuff bar none.
>
> I had to pick up someplace and so I picked this. I could have chose
> any of a dozen other paragraphs, though No kidding - this is a great
> thread.
Well, I`m glad my intense confusion has made for that good of a discussion
*grins*
I have found, the few other times that I have posted here, that discussions
here help me be much more clear-headed, about myself, what I want, and how
to express it all with my Master than if I just sat and thought, which is
what I used to do. He has yet to specifically comment on the newsgroup`s
effect on me, but since I started posting, I`m sure he`s noticed I am more
articulate, and much more sure of myself. There is great benefit to coming
here first, when I cannot figure myself out :)
> So - for those who don't know me, I am LadyGold (capital L, capital
> G), High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB. Strong, assertive,
> pushy, opinionated and submissive. So there! Deal.
*smiles!* oye, you sound like me, when I`m not confused (which DOES happen!
Just not very often). He`s commented on how pushy I can be and its made us
both almost feel sorry for the ones who came before him. I`m not sure they
will recover their poor "domlyness" after having had to deal with me. The
last one`s final conclusion was that I wasn`t submissive at all, which is
clearly not the case when my partner gets around to actually making me
behave properly *amused*.
> In my almost never humble opinion, any Dom type who is agressive,
> rude, demanding or impatient with anyone - does not deseve the title
> Dominant. Some time ago I read a book called Aztec by Gary Jennings.
> It's historical fiction and I really don't know how much is history
> and how much is fiction. Matters not, it's a good read. The author
> claimed that Aztec nobility was trained from childhood to *know* that
> if they sat down there would be a chair for them - even if there had
> not been one mere seconds before. That to me, is the way I expect a
> Dom to behave. No bluster, no shouting, no rudeness. Just sitting
> down and knowing a chair will be there.
See, this I had no idea. I knew what I *wanted* from a dom, since oh, about
middle school. But what I saw, got told, read, and experienced was that
doms were easily identifiable and obviously dominant. In Adam`s case, such
is not true at all. I had no idea he was anything of the sort until he told
me, and asked me about ah, things. He was incredibly polite, I remember,
and not demanding in the least, which completely set me off, I had no idea.
Looking back on our first few meetings when the friendship started turning
into something more, it was his kindness and gentleness that completely
undid me, and made it impossible to resist him. It still is. As long as
he`s fighting with me, I continue to be pushy and rude and a total
smart-ass. But as soon as he say, starts petting my hair, or kissing me, or
hugging me all gently and sweetly and all that shit, I just about fall at
his feet. He`s the first to figure that one out himself :)
> "Good" Doms say please and thank you. They have no need to demand.
The more he demands, the less I obey. *amused* Its great fun, I think, but
likely would have been the death of the others I had met, eventually.
> I don't go to our local submissives group. Partly because two of the
> women most closely associated with it are people I greatly dislike.
> Partly because I don't form close relationships with women in general.
> I also don't go to the women's play parties even though I am bi and
> poly and have been asked and asked. I play with women in mixed
> groups, I just don't want to be with nothing but women.
I am bisexual too, but in my case, it wsa just the opposite, I was that way
about men, until him. I didn`t really associate with men much, generally
called myself a lesbian, and rarely had male friends and certainly never
expressed a strong interest in anything but females.
> I have several very good friends from online <waving> and one woman
> locally who is turning out to be a good friend.
>
> I think, though, that I am far enough from the normal submissive, as I
> am far enough from my female peers in general that I just am not
> interested in sitting around and chattering. Yes, that sounds elitest
> - probably is. Deal.
That`s likely part of my problem as well though not limited to females.
I`ve never really fit in very well, except in the little niches like
lesbianism, paganism, where I limit myself to what the group is about. I
find myself unable to do that with submission, its not ... enough of a core
part of me to anyone but him for me to feel comfortable being *that* for a
few hours. On top of that, I`m in school to be a scientist with
tree-spiking dreams, and most of the rest of my life is split between that
career choice and the motorcycles I ride, which leaves me precious little in
common with most other people, especially females. There`s some females in
my classes, but most of their aspirations stop at park ranger or lab
technician, if they are doing more than taking forestry classes just as fun
electives. Oh yea, and I`m culturally a dunce, I don`t follow the news,
movie stars, popular trends, or anything of the like. So just what would I
be able to talk about, with others...?
> Ruby, Dragonfly - welcome to sssb-b. You are definitely folks I will
> be reading from now on.
I`m flattered! This place is truly wonderful, and I`m grateful I found it.
The opinions, experiences, and ideas of others are priceless.
>
> P.S. More than once a "Dom" has said to Taipan, "I sure am glad she's
> yours". You guessed it, Taipan always says, "Me too!"
*laughs!* I can see why, you sound like quite an interesting "handful" :)
Dragonfly
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> *smiles!* oye, you sound like me, when I`m not confused (which DOES happen!
> Just not very often). He`s commented on how pushy I can be and its made us
> both almost feel sorry for the ones who came before him. I`m not sure they
> will recover their poor "domlyness" after having had to deal with me. The
> last one`s final conclusion was that I wasn`t submissive at all, which is
> clearly not the case when my partner gets around to actually making me
> behave properly *amused*.
My husband and I occasionally have these fascinating conversations about
whether or not I'm really a sub. (He's more or less settled, at this
point, on 'If you are, it's not a kind that I can deal with easily.' I
laugh.)
His submissive girlfriend is closer to what I'm guessing is the sort of
submissive most people expect -- she's also a masochist, she's
apparently more likely to do as she's told, that sort of thing. (She's
also a strong, independent person who I happen to adore, but that's
neither here nor there.)
I think the summary of my relationship with my lover comes down most
succinctly to a conversation we had a while back when I was being
particularly not-submissive (I'm a little switchy on occasion, and it
often amuses him). I asked him if he had a problem with that in the
context of our power relationship; he said, "If I decide I don't like
it, I can always flip you over and do what I want with you."
("I'm going to ... take my boots off. I don't know how I missed that."
"You wanted to be taller than me for once?"
"If I were worried about that, I'd just have you kneel.")
- Darkhawk, apparently again highly ranked as an uppity minion
Bladerunner
LadyGold wrote:
> So - for those who don't know me, I am LadyGold (capital L, capital
> G), High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB. Strong, assertive,
> pushy, opinionated and submissive. So there! Deal.
*poke*
Hi and howdy :)
> I don't go to our local submissives group.
I don't do any of the submissives' groups either. Or the doms' groups,
for that matter. I'm honestly not sure if there's a group just for
switches around here. I'm pretty comfortable with who and what I am,
and I'm pretty comfortable with my support system and available
community in terms of having places to go with questions and needs for
reassurance. Even during the brief periods of my life when I thought I
ought to, I just don't seem to do well with those boxes other people
try to stuff me into. I'm a wee bit 'uppity' for many of them, too.
> I think, though, that I am far enough from the normal submissive, as I
> am far enough from my female peers in general that I just am not
> interested in sitting around and chattering. Yes, that sounds elitest
> - probably is. Deal.
I dunno about that. We sat around and chattered a while. *g*
> P.S. More than once a "Dom" has said to Taipan, "I sure am glad she's
> yours". You guessed it, Taipan always says, "Me too!"
Those are the kinds of doms I do best with too. The current Person of
Interest met me at one of my more crazed-but-*on* periods, and I posted
here not too long ago about having a panic attack around him. He's seen
first-hand how uppity and self-assured I can be. He's heard my opinion
on stuff whether he's asked for it or not. He watched me prepare for
and then throw a party in my home for 40+ where the only way to make
things work was to essentially boss people around, including him (hey,
he asked how he could help). He's all about the Please and Thank You.
Not just with me but with people we encounter in our regular day about
town. I'm good friends with one of his long-ish term exes. He's not the
least intimidated by smart, strong, willful women. It makes what I
share with him all the more valuable.
I have no interest in a battle of wills. I'm more interested in someone
who can create a safe enough space that I can invite him to terrorize
me within it.
Bladerunner
ssbb diplomatic corps: Portland, OR
www.naughtyknitting.net
Troia
...
> So - for those who don't know me, I am LadyGold (capital L, capital
> G), High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB. Strong, assertive,
> pushy, opinionated and submissive. So there! Deal.
and demure, of course.
(tags? What tags??)
> LadyGold, High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB
> Lumber Cartel # 2514 (tinc)
> aka Taipan's dorei
>
> P.S. More than once a "Dom" has said to Taipan, "I sure am glad she's
> yours". You guessed it, Taipan always says, "Me too!"
>
Oh, now I feel embarassed that I was thinking that was Lynn's story.
Anyway, it still makes a good one.
Here's one, but it's kinda easy and trivial:
I wrote (among other things):
" Also, I would have to ask if you ever really had to deal with *hundreds*
of responses. Even the most successful males I've spoken to have never
gotten that level of interest."
He responded:
"I have a certain sense of honor and of self respect. I do not lie. Your
comment that you "doubt" that I ever got the replies I said I did has turned
the worm for me. Good luck in your pursuits. This is now concluded."
Now, maybe my tone wasn't great, but even so, I never said I "doubt"
what he said, I said "I would have to ask if ..."
To me, his response seemed overbearing, even rude. I don't lie either,
but if I said something that seemed unusual to someone else who I didn't
even know personally, and they voiced the equivalent of "Really?!", I
would tend to reply "Yeah, really. Isn't that something?" or equivalent.
I find that too many so-called Doms are so hypersensitive to tone in
those they don't know, that they cannot engage in normal conversation
especially with women. I think it is important to not have the
expectation of instant "respect" be so weighty that small adjustments in
learning to communicate with another are not considered burdensome, and
I don't believe in offense being easily taken.
Had he said something asking me if I were doubting him, I would have
surely apologized anyway and used different words. But to me, this
seems to be a guy who can't tolerate the idea that any sub would
disagree with or even ask about anything he declared.
Am I being over-sensitive, or is he? (Remember, this is someone I only
know from a few very brief emails at this point.)
I could just be blunt, of course, and admit that I felt he was being a
bit of a prick here!
-- Troia
Troia
Now I have to point out what an appropriate metaphor that was for "Talk
Like a Pirate Day"!
-- Troia
(With apologies to Lady Gold.)
Troia
...
> I have found, the few other times that I have posted here, that discussions
> here help me be much more clear-headed, about myself, what I want, and how
> to express it all with my Master than if I just sat and thought, which is
> what I used to do. He has yet to specifically comment on the newsgroup`s
> effect on me, but since I started posting, I`m sure he`s noticed I am more
> articulate, and much more sure of myself. There is great benefit to coming
> here first, when I cannot figure myself out :)
I would of course not want to try to speak for your Dom, but I have a
strong suspicion that's why he wants you to make connections with other
subs. I agree that this group serves well in that way, but there is
something more to in-person interactions sometimes, even just in working
through your own confusion and having a warm body with facial
expressions etc. to talk with.
-- Troia
user119
> I find that too many so-called Doms are so hypersensitive to tone in
> those they don't know, that they cannot engage in normal conversation
> especially with women. I think it is important to not have the
> expectation of instant "respect" be so weighty that small adjustments in
> learning to communicate with another are not considered burdensome, and
> I don't believe in offense being easily taken.
>
> Had he said something asking me if I were doubting him, I would have
> surely apologized anyway and used different words. But to me, this
> seems to be a guy who can't tolerate the idea that any sub would
> disagree with or even ask about anything he declared.
>
> Am I being over-sensitive, or is he? (Remember, this is someone I only
> know from a few very brief emails at this point.)
I think it's a bit of everything. I watched many times as a dom
initiated a conversation with a sub only to be rebuffed as not
being domly. I've then watched said dom approach the next sub
with a more domly attitude, to be rebuffed as rude. So it does
exist on both sides of the issue.
What I think it really is is that the people involved in these
types of exchange are not meant for each other. They do not
connect.
Remember, when a dog pisses on your flower bush, he's just being
a dog. ;)
--
Cui bonuo
remove the -N-COLD to reply
Cheeky Girl
>>Am I being over-sensitive, or is he? (Remember, this is someone I only
>>know from a few very brief emails at this point.)
What?????? HUH?????????? NOOOOOO??????
Cheeky Girl
Very confused at the moment
user119
> user119 wrote:
>
>>>Am I being over-sensitive, or is he? (Remember, this is someone I only
>>>know from a few very brief emails at this point.)
>
> What?????? HUH?????????? NOOOOOO??????
Wrong attribution CG. Troia wrote that.
Cheeky Girl
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:22:39 -0500, Cheeky Girl wrote:
>
>
>>user119 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Am I being over-sensitive, or is he? (Remember, this is someone I only
>>>>know from a few very brief emails at this point.)
>>
>>What?????? HUH?????????? NOOOOOO??????
>
>
> Wrong attribution CG. Troia wrote that.
>
ooops sorry... but I am still confused!
Cheeky Girl
user119
> user119 wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:22:39 -0500, Cheeky Girl wrote:
>>
>>>user119 wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Am I being over-sensitive, or is he? (Remember, this is someone I only
>>>>>know from a few very brief emails at this point.)
>>>
>>>What?????? HUH?????????? NOOOOOO??????
>>
>> Wrong attribution CG. Troia wrote that.
>
> ooops sorry... but I am still confused!
I think you're missing Troia's post that I replied to. It'll show
in time.
Dragonfly
>> In this case, its very likely that whether I feel good about it or not,
>> he`s not going to give me the option of not going at all. And he`s got
>> the right to do so, if he chooses to. I hope he doesn`t, but its not
>> exactly something I`ve control of, at least not the first meeting. I`ll
>> have to wait until he comes back tomorrow night, and er, after he`s
>> finished satisfying himself that every part of me still is in quite good
>> shape *grins*, and then I`ll ask him just what it is he`s expecting from
>> me attending this group, and see what he says.
"Brian Downstairs" <switc...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cHYPg.21744$r61....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Well, I have no idea what you negotiated with him, ie, what he can and
> cannot say you should do. For me, it would not include this sort of thing.
> It has the potential to involve non consenting parties in your scene, in
> my view, but as I say, I'm not you.
>
> Brian
I don`t quite understand how this could be involving others
nonconsentually... Especially since I was invited, specifically, and the
group itself is designed for the D/s dynamic, and so could hardly involve
people who`d be hurt or offended by a D/s type interaction between him and
I. Confused?
In short, he can decide to override me on just about any decision he chooses
to, he just rarely uses that power likely because usually we agree and when
we don`t I usually have good enough reasons to disagree and more information
involving the situation which, when shared, causes him to change his mind.
In this case, if I decided in the end I really did not want to go and he
told me to go anyways, it would be something we`d include in the email to
the woman who invited me, and I`d hardly be ungracious about it. In any
case, he`d only force the first meeting, because after that it would either
be much easier for me to continue going on my own, or we would both see it
wasn`t worth the effort and I`d not continue going. I`m painfully
reclusive, and I`d never willingly decide on my own to attend a group like
that, so in this its a pretty good use of his power over me for my own good
type of thing. Similarly, he`s forced me to go to the doctor for my asthma,
to get inhalers, because on my own I wouldn`t go. This, clearly, was for my
own good and a good use of our power dynamic to improve my life, yes? Its
very similar, only the benefits are less physical, more emotional, if at
all.
Dragonfly - not opposed to being overruled by my partner in this kind of
thing
Mad Jesuit
>
> "Technobarbarian" <Technobarbar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:qMIPg.21015$RD.2268@fed1read08...
>>
>> There is no standard way subs are expected to act. I know a number of
>> people whose orientation I would not know except for observing their
>> interaction with their significant others. Even then there can sometimes
>> be room for doubt about exactly what the nature of the relationship is.
>> It doesn't bother me a bit. With the exception of the people who have
>> agreed to submit to me I don't expect being a Dom to earn me any special
>> privileges. Doms who do annoy me. [General rule of thumb: the people who
>> most expect automatic respect are usually the least deserving of
>> respect.] It's sounds like you and your Dom need to have a chat. You may
>> have hit one of your limits. It shouldn't be any problem. First and
>> foremost I expect my sub to be herself. If this group is really imposing
>> a standard of conduct on subs they might not be the group for you. They
>> certainly would not be a group that I could enjoy. Having someone call me
>> sir simply because I self-identify as a Dom is not flattering,
>> particularly when I hear that same sub call someone I figure is a horse's
>> ass sir.
>
> He and I definitely do need to talk... especially if he expects me to
> behave like that again, because its not generally in my nature to act
> respectful towards *him*. While in private it doesn`t matter, if it does
> matter in public then he and I need to spend some time actively teaching
> me how to act because I just can`t do it on my own.
>
> I think he was mostly aiming for a respectful attitude from me, for people
> we didn`t know and were just meeting. As far as being myself, well, I
> think that`s a big reason why he wants me to go to the women`s group,
> because I don`t know myself. I used to, but a certain person spent too
> long twisting me for me to remember who I was. Discovering who I am now
> might prove to be a bit difficult if all I have to go on is what he thinks
> of me and how he sees me. Being an incredibly smart man, I`m sure he
> figures that and very likely its one of his motivations in pushing at me
> to go to the group. The more people I know in this lifestyle, the less
> dependent on his beliefs and desires...???? If that makes any sense?
>
> I`m twisting myself up, I can see this. I make no sense to myself.
> grrph. My apologies. Its my own lack of experience and inability to think
> clearly about things related to D/s, I think.
Hello Dragonfly,
I also identify as a dominant and in my experience I have to agree with TB.
In my observations at munches, play parties, and lifestyle events,
submissives are
regular people. It's not an automatic assumption that subs will address
doms as
sir or ma'am. Certainly the dominants that I know personally do not expect
this
behavior. I have been addressed as sir (consistently) by a few of
submissives (not mine).
I had spoken with these individuals and found out that their doms had
required them
to address all dominants as sir or ma'am and to be polite at all times.
But, again, this
is something that exists within the relationship dynamic between those
dominants and
their submissives.
You really should discuss your experience with your dom. Explain to him how
you
felt that his expectation was contrary to your personality. Although, it
sounds to me
that he just wanted you to be on your best behavior. Many dominants take
great pride
in the behavior and accomplishments of their subs. It reflects well upon
the dominant
when their submissive is well-behaved in public.
Regarding your reluctance to attend a social group for submissive women...
In my area, the dominants meet once a month to discuss issues that are
unique to being
a dominant. It's a support group of peers. Likewise, there is a dinner
night each month
for the submissives to get together and discuss issues that are unique to
being a submissive.
This, too, is a support group of peers.
In either group, the discussion topic can be general or it can address a
specific issue that
someone is having and help that individual toward finding a solution. The
social group in
your area may be more than just a resource of information for you. It could
become a
very good support network for you. But, again, discuss this with your dom.
---The Mad Jesuit (TMJ)
Technobarbarian
> He and I definitely do need to talk... especially if he expects me to
> behave like that again, because its not generally in my nature to act
> respectful towards *him*. While in private it doesn`t matter, if it does
> matter in public then he and I need to spend some time actively teaching
> me how to act because I just can`t do it on my own.
>
> I think he was mostly aiming for a respectful attitude from me, for people
> we didn`t know and were just meeting. As far as being myself, well, I
> think that`s a big reason why he wants me to go to the women`s group,
> because I don`t know myself. I used to, but a certain person spent too
> long twisting me for me to remember who I was. Discovering who I am now
> might prove to be a bit difficult if all I have to go on is what he thinks
> of me and how he sees me. Being an incredibly smart man, I`m sure he
> figures that and very likely its one of his motivations in pushing at me
> to go to the group. The more people I know in this lifestyle, the less
> dependent on his beliefs and desires...???? If that makes any sense?
>
> I`m twisting myself up, I can see this. I make no sense to myself.
> grrph. My apologies. Its my own lack of experience and inability to think
> clearly about things related to D/s, I think.
No apologies necessary. I'm sure I'm one of many who are flattered that
you trust us enough to try talking this stuff out here. It may take you a
lot of words, but from my perspective you're doing great.
My own little comment that I want to add to the discussion of what
submissives are like: You have to watch out for the language of BDSM. It can
be misleading. We've taken words and bent them a bit to describe our
experience. For me submissive is a prime example. We've taken an adjective
and turned it into a noun--a very misleading noun. There are submissives
more or less like what you envision, but most of them ain't. You and my sub
have a lot in common. Anyone other than myself who tries to dominate her
risks pulling back a bloody stump. For the most part they're a pretty tough
lot. It's sort of a requirement for swimming counter to the cultural
current, not everyone can do it, despite their inner desires. The word
sounds like it pervades all of who they are. Sometimes it does, but mostly
it doesn't. We use the word for everyone one for whom the adjective can be
applied in some manner. We could really use a bunch of words that just
belong to us, but languages generally don't work that way.
I've sent a sub to the local group. It was a good idea and it worked
out well over the long run, but my goals were far less ambitious than what
you may be facing. For dispelling stereotypes and getting comfortable with
being kinked it can be great. For learning who you aren't it might work
well. For learning who you are I'm more pessimistic. That's a tall order. It
can't hurt. <laughing at myself>
I'll tell you the story of the sub that I sent to the local group. At
that time we were living in different cities and she was just coming to
grips with her kink. Where I was living there's a very active community. The
city she was living in was large enough that I assumed they had a reasonably
active community. Welllllllllllllll, not exactly. The local club was meeting
in a glorified garden shed in someone's back yard. The only way to contact
them was through a message phone. When someone from the club finally
contacted her he was also hitting on her, which is a major breech of ethics.
Being stubborn she pushed ahead and attended several meetings. I'm telling
her we're more or less everyday people; you know: the butcher, the baker,
the candlestick maker. At the first meeting she goes to she gets more
the..............how to say this nicely..................they were very nice
people...................but it was more the............
hmmmmm.............might as well come out an say it, it was more the freak
show end of BDSM. One of the more "normal" couples was a gay professional
drag queen and his lesbian wife. I swear, you just can't make stuff like
this up. They had been happily married quite awhile and had kids together
that were in their teens. I know! They were very colorful people.
She's opened minded enough that even though these weren't the sort of
people she's used to and not what either of us had expected she hung in
there and learned a lot about herself and BDSM. Mostly that we're pretty
ordinary people who can sometimes have our colorful side. I think it sort of
helped that she eventually learned that her daughter, who had moved
elsewhere, had been a member previous to her. She had known her daughter was
a bit kinked, but she hadn't realized how active she was. The daughter had
been well known and well liked. She eventually went on to become an
important part of the leadership of the club that was built on the ashes of
the club that had been meeting in a garden shed.
TB
SilverOz
Technobarbarian <Technobarbar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've sent a sub to the local group. It was a good idea and it worked
> out well over the long run, but my goals were far less ambitious than what
> you may be facing. For dispelling stereotypes and getting comfortable with
> being kinked it can be great. For learning who you aren't it might work
> well. For learning who you are I'm more pessimistic. That's a tall order. It
> can't hurt. <laughing at myself>
GRoups vary a lot.
In my experience the face to face ones have less subbier-than-thou
than online ones, but meatlife or online they take their tone from the
loudest and pushiest.
because the others bugger off :)
I dealt with the problem by refusing to call myself submissive or
slave, I just said "I'm a Zebee" and if they wanted to know more then
they had to ask.
I found the ones who didn't like the desire to stay away from labels
were the ones I didn't have much in common with. The others managed.
Some liked the labels, because they found it helped to come to terms
with the desires or they liked having a name for how they felt.
Others didn't like labels but liked having people with similar
experiences to talk to.
I'm a pretty non-social type, not much into meeting people, so I
didn't go to many meetings. But I didn't find the meetings themselves
a problem as the people with serious stereotype problems - pitch or
catch - tended to stay away too. for one thing, all it takes for a
Twue Dom to decide not to come anymore is a ticking off from the
inferior form of life :)
SilverOz
Ruth Lawrence
"Technobarbarian" <Technobarbar...@gmail.com> wrote
<snip>> My own little comment that I want to add to the discussion of
what
> submissives are like: You have to watch out for the language of BDSM. It
> can be misleading. We've taken words and bent them a bit to describe our
> experience. For me submissive is a prime example. We've taken an adjective
> and turned it into a noun--a very misleading noun. There are submissives
> more or less like what you envision, but most of them ain't. You and my
> sub have a lot in common. Anyone other than myself who tries to dominate
> her risks pulling back a bloody stump. For the most part they're a pretty
> tough lot. It's sort of a requirement for swimming counter to the cultural
> current, not everyone can do it, despite their inner desires. The word
> sounds like it pervades all of who they are. Sometimes it does, but mostly
> it doesn't. We use the word for everyone one for whom the adjective can be
> applied in some manner. We could really use a bunch of words that just
> belong to us, but languages generally don't work that way.
Well, you see, I can be submissive by *this* account, and yet, and yet, I'm
a bottom mostly and it doesn't twist me up to be only a bottom for
easy-going, amusing folks.
I've tended to avoid using the word because it seems to swamp people's
perceptions and I default to dominant (leader/mentor) most of the time with
most scene folks, and the submission I do is nowhere near a slave, and not
passive or managed or 24/7.
Alas, a single woman IDing as sub also may be get hit on and imposed on
quite a lot, too.
It seems, then, better to be discreet until I have earned a hash-mark or two
as a dom and top (yeah, I'm training now).
That I am a switch doesn't bother me, but some folks have a bit of a time
getting past a simple construction of what we are and do.
I'm glad you posted this: thanks!
Ruth, still mostly a dom/masochist switch
Janet Miles
<1158633403.9...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, sickpuppy wrote:
> for my example: at one
> local group everyone entering was asked to apply a name tag. okay,
> normal so far. except for the fact that you had to pick a color of tag
> based on your orientation and there are only two colors. i found that
> silly and then offensive.
I've attended groups where the color of your nametag indicated your
orientation as dom, sub, or switch. Since I'm none of the above (masochist
but no power exchange, please), I started wearing my own nametag. It was
green. *grin*
On the other hand, at one of the meetings of my local group, someone asked
me, "What do the different color nametags mean?" and I was delighted to be
able to answer, "They mean that Office Depot only had one pack each of red
and blue nametags on the shelf".
JanetM
--
Posted by Janet Miles <janet...@chartertn.net>
Sometimes it's a good idea to revere the sacred crazy
from a safe distance. -- Arthur D. Hlavaty
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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nadi
Dragonfly wrote:
> but I was hoping you`d be ok with me printing this out to save and show my
> Master? I could never express this, but I think its exactly right.
Of course you can, I'd be honoured. And I'm glad to hear you seem to
be making sense of all this :)
nadi xx
Technobarbarian
"Ruth Lawrence" <curly...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4510d70c$0$22361$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Well, you see, I can be submissive by *this* account, and yet, and yet,
> I'm a bottom mostly and it doesn't twist me up to be only a bottom for
> easy-going, amusing folks.
>
> I've tended to avoid using the word because it seems to swamp people's
> perceptions and I default to dominant (leader/mentor) most of the time
> with most scene folks, and the submission I do is nowhere near a slave,
> and not passive or managed or 24/7.
>
> Alas, a single woman IDing as sub also may be get hit on and imposed on
> quite a lot, too.
Here locally the guy we've had to sit on the most for failing to heed
our "no means no rule" is a male bottom. My sub is so naturally adverse to
topping that the thought of delivering a birthday spanking caused her to
hurl. He's even hit on her. Our policy is that if you're having a problem
take it to a board member. Naturally some board members are better than
others at getting in someone's face and explaining the facts of life in a
manner that the miscreant might understand. As a matter of diplomacy I
prefer this route. Believe it or not diplomacy can be difficult for me at
times.
TB
Technobarbarian
"Janet Miles" <janet...@chartertn.net> wrote in message
news:vd22h2pq8humg88vi...@4ax.com...
> On 18 Sep 2006 19:36:44 -0700, in message
> <1158633403.9...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, sickpuppy wrote:
>
>> for my example: at one
>> local group everyone entering was asked to apply a name tag. okay,
>> normal so far. except for the fact that you had to pick a color of tag
>> based on your orientation and there are only two colors. i found that
>> silly and then offensive.
>
> I've attended groups where the color of your nametag indicated your
> orientation as dom, sub, or switch. Since I'm none of the above
> (masochist
> but no power exchange, please), I started wearing my own nametag. It was
> green. *grin*
>
> On the other hand, at one of the meetings of my local group, someone asked
> me, "What do the different color nametags mean?" and I was delighted to be
> able to answer, "They mean that Office Depot only had one pack each of red
> and blue nametags on the shelf".
Yeah, we've gotten a lot of these "you can't tell the players without a
scorecard requests." So many of us hate name tags that that one has never
flown and all we've ever been able to agree on is voluntary, mostly ignored,
arrangements to identify top/bottom orientation. When we're at the club
house we're there to relax and have a good time. I don't think any of us get
offended if someone asks about our kink in a friendly manner, but I suspect
that colored name tags would cause open revolt. For us it has always boiled
down to a personal privacy issue.
TB
Ruth Lawrence
>
> "Ruth Lawrence" <curly...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4510d70c$0$22361$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
>> Well, you see, I can be submissive by *this* account, and yet, and yet,
>> I'm a bottom mostly and it doesn't twist me up to be only a bottom for
>> easy-going, amusing folks.
>>
>> I've tended to avoid using the word because it seems to swamp people's
>> perceptions and I default to dominant (leader/mentor) most of the time
>> with most scene folks, and the submission I do is nowhere near a slave,
>> and not passive or managed or 24/7.
>>
>> Alas, a single woman IDing as sub also may be get hit on and imposed on
>> quite a lot, too.
>
> Here locally the guy we've had to sit on the most for failing to heed
> our "no means no rule" is a male bottom.
Oh yes.
Being a big mean older woman I'm well used to guys like that, and likely
don't even notice that I am repelling them with cruel coldness :-)
I do know such individuals can upset many.
>...My sub is so naturally adverse to topping that the thought of delivering
>a birthday spanking caused her to hurl. He's even hit on her.
Gah.
>...Our policy is that if you're having a problem take it to a board member.
>Naturally some board members are better than others at getting in someone's
>face and explaining the facts of life in a manner that the miscreant might
>understand. As a matter of diplomacy I prefer this route. Believe it or not
>diplomacy can be difficult for me at times.
Hmmm...
Me, I've recently realised that outside of political or academic debate I'm
conflict-avoidant, and there lies half (I suppose) of my problem.
As a new domme I really do need to navigate these shoals as well as I can
myself, I think.
We don't have boards.
Ruth
LadyGold
>Am I being over-sensitive, or is he? (Remember, this is someone I only
>know from a few very brief emails at this point.)
>
>I could just be blunt, of course, and admit that I felt he was being a
>bit of a prick here!
Perhaps just a (polite, of course) suggestion that he locate a
remedial reading tutor?
It's a pretty important thing to me; I say what I mean and I mean what
I say. Those people who feel it necessary to attribute other than the
literal meaning (as found in a basic dictionary) to my words are not
people I can deal with.
I am not "nice", I am blunt. And the general reaction I get when
people from ssb-b and I meet in person is that I speak just like I
type.
Sounds like your Mr. NotQuiteSoWonderfulAsHethinksHeIs has a chip on
his shoulder and IME that generally means some self esteem issues.
You might also just tell him how sorry you are he has such a teensy
tiny little dick.
LadyGold, High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB
Lumber Cartel Unit 2514 (tinlc)
aka Taipan's dorei
Troia
I have this problem with "revenge fantasies" (mine are tepid, can't
really get into it much) but I think I can handle that one, in my mind
at least!
In that sort of email conversation, I really do choose my words
carefully, and I really did mean what I said, just wondering how it was
so and whether he really meant "hundreds" as he hadn't said actual
quantity; I was what I would call "curious", not "doubting", because it
was so contrary to the experiences related to me by other men
(desireable ones, IMO, who should have gotten reasonable response levels.)
I believe I know how to write respectfully to a Dom -- many thousands of
emails to practice -- but I do get the feeling that some who so-identify
are a bit over-sensitive to trivial early mis-communications. I think
it does sometimes take a while to adjust to each other's manner of
speaking, but what was ironic here is that it is not as if we had an
established relationship ... and even so, I would hate to feel
constrained about the possibility of writing "you're kidding!" or
similar and worry that they would take offense.
Thank you for your comments and perspective, 'specially since you seem
to agree with me. *g*
-- Troia
LadyGold
<troia....@gmail.removethis.com> wrote:
>Now I have to point out what an appropriate metaphor that was for "Talk
>Like a Pirate Day"!
Yarr! I tell them and tell them, but they never learn!
First you pillage - then you burn!!
Rennies R Us
LadyGold, High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB
sickpuppy
SilverOz wrote:
[...]
> I dealt with the problem by refusing to call myself submissive or
> slave, I just said "I'm a Zebee" and if they wanted to know more then
> they had to ask.
[...]
> I found the ones who didn't like the desire to stay away from labels
> were the ones I didn't have much in common with. The others managed.
> Some liked the labels, because they found it helped to come to terms
> with the desires or they liked having a name for how they felt.
> Others didn't like labels but liked having people with similar
> experiences to talk to.
somewhat tangential (me? never!) but something this post brought to my
mind:
we lack a pradigm. our relationship is D/s. but i am not a slave, pet
(puppy is sorta close, but is a tad more degraded than the common use
of "pet" seems to be), wench, submissive, dorei, chatellaine or any of
the other scores of paradigms people use. he is not my master, owner,
lord, or Dom. i use the terms top and bottom easily. perhaps because i
adopted them first, as plain old sm (the acronym) was what i found
first but the closest common-to-bdsm label that i can think of to
describe how i think of him would be "daddy", but that really isn't
quite right either. for whatever reason the words i am "his submissive"
or he is "my dominant" do not flow easily off my tongue. so i tend to
be left at a loss as to how to refer to him. all the available terms
feel self-conscious and not quite accurate. he does have a name, but i
don't really use that either.
we don't do ritual. i don't kneel except for practical <g> reasons or
on demand, and he isn't much inclined to demand kneeling (except for
fun reasons or the rare times that i overstep myself). i don't have a
Collar. i have a really nice doggie-collar with my very own
doggie-tag, and i like it very much and i like wearing it but, while i
can't go so far as to say that donning or wearing it is meaning-less,
it isn't sacred. it isn't a symbol of anything. i do have meaning-full
tattoos and piercings and we sometimes toy with the idea of having me
branded.
we rarely use honorifics or terms of address, though he does have one
nickname for me that can either be a glowing endearment or a warning
depending on the tone. i get called bitch, slut and fucking whore a lot
and i rather like that. in fact, if i *had* to pick someway to
introduce myself as it would probably be something along those lines.
but it still leaves the matter open as to what to call him as neither
"dog" nor "pimp" are particularly pleasing nor accurate.
"toy/plaything" is kinda close for me, but again, what does that make
him? my player? lol
i've been punished exactly once. it was horrible and i never did what
led to it again. but i don't worry about being punished. i don't even
think about it. we just tend to talk if there is a problem. sm is a
major component of our sexual behaviors, but even it is usually
less...formal?...than seems "normal."
i've tried a lot of this stuff on, some i enjoyed, but nothing ever
"stuck." i don't 'dis it at all. some of it sounds great. maybe it's a
lack of romanticism, i don't know. maybe it's just a lack of time. i do
know our relationship works, quite well, for us.
to relate this to the subject at hand (i think): i suspect that the
lack of paradigm and symbols and such that often seem to be
expectations of a D/s relationship are somehow related to the reason i
am not always comfortable in groups of "other submissive women." or
maybe that should be stated the other way around. the two issues seem
to share a common root. what that is, i don't know.
sp, thinking out loud
LadyGold
wrote:
>
>LadyGold wrote:
>
>> So - for those who don't know me, I am LadyGold (capital L, capital
>> G), High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB. Strong, assertive,
>> pushy, opinionated and submissive. So there! Deal.
>
>*poke*
>
>Hi and howdy :)
Hi and howdy back!!
<snippage>
Me:
>> I think, though, that I am far enough from the normal submissive, as I
>> am far enough from my female peers in general that I just am not
>> interested in sitting around and chattering. Yes, that sounds elitest
>> - probably is. Deal.
Bladerunner:
>I dunno about that. We sat around and chattered a while. *g*
I said... "I have several very good friends from online <waving> and
one woman locally who is turning out to be a good friend"
Next time I won't wave. <g>.
>
>
>> P.S. More than once a "Dom" has said to Taipan, "I sure am glad she's
>> yours". You guessed it, Taipan always says, "Me too!"
>
>Those are the kinds of doms I do best with too. The current Person of
>Interest met me at one of my more crazed-but-*on* periods, and I posted
>here not too long ago about having a panic attack around him. He's seen
>first-hand how uppity and self-assured I can be. He's heard my opinion
>on stuff whether he's asked for it or not. He watched me prepare for
>and then throw a party in my home for 40+ where the only way to make
>things work was to essentially boss people around, including him (hey,
>he asked how he could help). He's all about the Please and Thank You.
>Not just with me but with people we encounter in our regular day about
>town. I'm good friends with one of his long-ish term exes. He's not the
>least intimidated by smart, strong, willful women. It makes what I
>share with him all the more valuable.
>
>I have no interest in a battle of wills. I'm more interested in someone
>who can create a safe enough space that I can invite him to terrorize
>me within it.
Yes, what an excellent way to put it.
Taipan is my partner. We face the world and all its terrors as a
team. Then he can terrorize me as he wishes.
LadyGold, High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB
Lumber Cartel Unit 2514 (tinlc)
aka Taipan's dorei
--
"Just because I don't CARE doesn't mean I don't understand."
... my cat.
Dragonfly
"Mad Jesuit" <mad_j...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nK0Qg.3452$hS....@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...> Hello Dragonfly,
Hiya,
<cuts>
> You really should discuss your experience with your dom. Explain to him
> how you
> felt that his expectation was contrary to your personality. Although, it
> sounds to me
> that he just wanted you to be on your best behavior. Many dominants take
> great pride
> in the behavior and accomplishments of their subs. It reflects well upon
> the dominant
> when their submissive is well-behaved in public.
That`s all it was, and it wasn`t his asking me to do that (for him!) that
bothered me, it was the implication that I could not avoid being labelled a
"sub" while attending either group, and for some reason, I really do not
care to be labelled that AT ALL. :/ for sure, it is something we will need
to talk about, him and I.
> Regarding your reluctance to attend a social group for submissive women...
>
> In my area, the dominants meet once a month to discuss issues that are
> unique to being
> a dominant. It's a support group of peers. Likewise, there is a dinner
> night each month
> for the submissives to get together and discuss issues that are unique to
> being a submissive.
> This, too, is a support group of peers.
>
> In either group, the discussion topic can be general or it can address a
> specific issue that
> someone is having and help that individual toward finding a solution. The
> social group in
> your area may be more than just a resource of information for you. It
> could become a
> very good support network for you. But, again, discuss this with your
> dom.
>
> ---The Mad Jesuit (TMJ)
I`m sure it would be good for me, if I can get over my fear of being so
labelled... Eventually, I suppose. At least, with the general group, I`d be
sitting by his side the whole time and not on my own among people I don`t
trust.
Dragonfly
> No apologies necessary. I'm sure I'm one of many who are flattered that
> you trust us enough to try talking this stuff out here. It may take you a
> lot of words, but from my perspective you're doing great.
Well, where else am I going to go, for intelligent discussions? :)
Seriously, it is a wonderful place to be, and there`s little I`d feel
uncomfortable posting about here.
> My own little comment that I want to add to the discussion of what
> submissives are like: You have to watch out for the language of BDSM. It
> can be misleading. We've taken words and bent them a bit to describe our
> experience. For me submissive is a prime example. We've taken an adjective
> and turned it into a noun--a very misleading noun.
That is not something I`ve previously thought about, and you are right...
> There are submissives more or less like what you envision, but most of
> them ain't. You and my sub have a lot in common. Anyone other than myself
> who tries to dominate her risks pulling back a bloody stump. For the most
> part they're a pretty tough lot.
Hee, I just read this to my Master and he laughed and said "Just like you!"
he`s 100% convinced anyone trying to dominate me would get their ass beat
and he expressed concern at my not leaving enough of them left for him to
pound. *amused* His absolute confidence in me is ahh, comforting, I didn`t
think I was like that much. Writing, yes, but in person I`ve more or less
let lots of people hurt me. But, as he pointed out, not when I`m collared
and owned. :)
> I've sent a sub to the local group. It was a good idea and it worked
> out well over the long run, but my goals were far less ambitious than what
> you may be facing. For dispelling stereotypes and getting comfortable with
> being kinked it can be great. For learning who you aren't it might work
> well. For learning who you are I'm more pessimistic. That's a tall order.
> It can't hurt. <laughing at myself>
Well, to at least get a different perspective than his. I have absolutely
NOTHING against being exactly what he envisions a sub to be, but for some
reasons he`s opposed to my being limited in such a way *grins* go figure...
> I'll tell you the story of the sub that I sent to the local group. At
> that time we were living in different cities and she was just coming to
> grips with her kink. Where I was living there's a very active community.
> The city she was living in was large enough that I assumed they had a
> reasonably active community. Welllllllllllllll, not exactly. The local
> club was meeting in a glorified garden shed in someone's back yard. The
> only way to contact them was through a message phone. When someone from
> the club finally contacted her he was also hitting on her, which is a
> major breech of ethics. Being stubborn she pushed ahead and attended
> several meetings. I'm telling her we're more or less everyday people; you
> know: the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker. At the first meeting
> she goes to she gets more the..............how to say this
> nicely..................they were very nice people...................but
> it was more the............ hmmmmm.............might as well come out an
> say it, it was more the freak show end of BDSM. One of the more "normal"
> couples was a gay professional drag queen and his lesbian wife. I swear,
> you just can't make stuff like this up. They had been happily married
> quite awhile and had kids together that were in their teens. I know! They
> were very colorful people.
Wow! That makes this group of people look like your average everyday
person, in spite of their bdsm affiliation :o Actually, I was shocked at
how normal they seemed :) I think if the people hadn`t appeared so normal,
I would have absolutely refused to go back to either group ever, and not
been willing to budge on it.. But they did seem fairly normal, and so far
its all been actual couples, so the dreaded "being hit on by another dom"
hasn`t happened. I`m sure I`d refuse to go back for that too.
I`m real close to being ok to sending the woman an email, thanks to you
folks here and his reaction to my reading this to him :) I had to, your
description of the bloody stump made me crack up laughing :D and of course
he wanted to know what was so funny.
Dragonfly
Dragonfly
"Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <dark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:1hlxa9g.6vk0581i8a4n4N%dark...@mindspring.com...
> I think the summary of my relationship with my lover comes down most
> succinctly to a conversation we had a while back when I was being
> particularly not-submissive (I'm a little switchy on occasion, and it
> often amuses him). I asked him if he had a problem with that in the
> context of our power relationship; he said, "If I decide I don't like
> it, I can always flip you over and do what I want with you."
>
> ("I'm going to ... take my boots off. I don't know how I missed that."
> "You wanted to be taller than me for once?"
> "If I were worried about that, I'd just have you kneel.")
>
> - Darkhawk, apparently again highly ranked as an uppity minion
*laughs!!* He is seemingly just as not-worried about my submission. He`s
never lacked the confidence that he can get me to behave whenever he wants
to and just chooses to let me be ah, rebellious. uppity, yes. :) Then
again, I`ve seen proof of it, and he`s more or less right. I *am*
submissive, but to him and not to anyone else (at least not yet, not sure if
that`ll ever change). I`m not switchy, I`d be totally at a loss if he ever
did let me truly have my way beyond just sitting back and being amused by
me, but I`m definitely not the very obedient type that I would normally
associate with the word submissive. Selectively submissive maybe. I knelt
at his feet and smiled all nicely at him readily enough when he was debating
whether he wanted to bother with tying me up or if he would rather be lazy,
but I suppose only when it suits me or if he pushes me into doing so...
*grins*
Dragonfly -not a common sub?
Dragonfly
"Troia" <troia....@gmail.removethis.com> wrote in message
news:451075af$0$97266$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
> I would of course not want to try to speak for your Dom, but I have a
> strong suspicion that's why he wants you to make connections with other
> subs. I agree that this group serves well in that way, but there is
> something more to in-person interactions sometimes, even just in working
> through your own confusion and having a warm body with facial expressions
> etc. to talk with.
>
> -- Troia
sigh.... agreed... and its partly the greater something-or-other of
in-person commections that I was trying to avoid, but I`m getting less and
less reasons to avoid it now. grr. Ah well, its good for me :D
Dragonfly - only too well aware that online isn`t everything, safe as it
certainly feels here
Dragonfly
> Dragonfly wrote:
> Stereotypes are just that. An awful lot of submissive women are strong,
> independent, capable, outspoken, assertive (and even aggressive with other
> than their Dom), etc. Your interaction with your Master is one thing, but
> your interaction with the rest of the world is quite another.
I think that was the underlying problem. He quite readily assured me that
he fully expects that anyone trying to push me to submit to them is likely
to come away bloody, and he was grinning wickedly at me while saying this.
Ah, he thinks I have claws, and since he knows a bit more about myself than
I do at the moment, I suspect he may be more right than me. I`ve *always*
interacted with the world at large as if I`d get beat to a bloody pulp for
screwing up. But now, well, he`s the only one with the right to do that,
and it somehow makes a difference?
> Yes, of course do talk it over with him. That is exactly what you should
> do when you are in this sort of conflict.
>
> I can see very good reason for his wanting you to go, however, and I
> applaud it. It is important IMO to make connections with other submissive
> women; it is something that I have felt as a great lack in my own life,
> and something I hear from others who have as few connections as I have.
> There is something very good in having those connections with more
> experienced women, they can mentor and in a way "mother" you, and can help
> you understand things in your own submissive mind that your Master simply
> can't ever fully understand because his mind doesn't work that way.
>
> I suspect there will come a time that you are glad he made you do this.
sigh... yes, I`ll email the woman. We did talk about it, and he really does
have good reasons for wanting me to go, as did you and everyone else here,
and I`m running out of reasons to give for not wanting to go. But if I come
back with bitemarks, its not my fault! *amused* no, not those kinds of
bitemarks.
Dragonfly -sending email shortly.....
Troia
...
> sigh... yes, I`ll email the woman. We did talk about it, and he really does
> have good reasons for wanting me to go, as did you and everyone else here,
> and I`m running out of reasons to give for not wanting to go. But if I come
> back with bitemarks, its not my fault! *amused* no, not those kinds of
> bitemarks.
>
> Dragonfly -sending email shortly.....
>
Heh! I have a feeling if you have any problems there at all, it won't
be *you* with the bitemarks!
-- Troia
LadyGold
wrote:
>we lack a pradigm. our relationship is D/s.
My relationship with Taipan isn't even D/s; not that I wouldn't like
it to be, but he's just not wired to be a Dom.
I'm submissive to him (when he's willing to let me) but I've pretty
well quit worrying about how to define us. We're partners.
In the past year I've learned that I'm a pretty good rigger; and that
has given me not only a great deal of understanding on how he feels,
but another facet to my particular make-up.
So these days I introduce myself as a bi, poly, submissive, rope Top.
I do think it is very important for people to understand that the
male, Dominant, sadist - female, submissive, masochist paradigm is
far, FAR from the only one.
It seems to not be used very much recently, but I always enjoyed the
BDSM-LMNOP acronym. We is what we is. We do what works for
ourselves. There is NO OneTrueWay.
LadyGold, High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB
Lumber Cartel Unit 2514 (tinlc)
aka Taipan's dorei
--
Bi, poly, submissive rope Top. I dislike pigeon holes.
Bladerunner
LadyGold wrote:
> I said... "I have several very good friends from online <waving> and
> one woman locally who is turning out to be a good friend"
>
> Next time I won't wave. <g>.
Heh. I think I still owe you a scene, by the way. I will be in OK
again in May, though I'm not sure yet if I'm going to Tulsa this time.
Any chance you have a Seattle trip coming up anytime soon?
Bladerunner wrote:
> >I have no interest in a battle of wills. I'm more interested in someone
> >who can create a safe enough space that I can invite him to terrorize
> >me within it.
LadyGold wrote:
> Yes, what an excellent way to put it.
>
> Taipan is my partner. We face the world and all its terrors as a
> team. Then he can terrorize me as he wishes.
*sigh*
Bladerunner
Markem
<Ladygold....@planetarydefense.org> wrote:
>There is NO OneTrueWay.
There is only One's true way, which has many forks and loops.
Markem
(sixoneeight) = 618
Technobarbarian
> Technobarbarian wrote:
> ... [responding to Dragonfly]
>> I like your Dom. He has a head on his shoulders. Just like everyone
>> else subs become who they are. About all a Dom can really hope for is to
>> facilitate that process. The woman I sent to the local club thought she
>> was a 24/7 submissive. I tried to explain that this wasn't likely,
>> but......... She eventually evolved into a switch. These days, even at
>> her most submissive, she doesn't really give up all that much control.
>> From our current emotional distance I take a certain amount of pride in
>> the fact that much of what she's teaching others she originally learned
>> from me.
>>
>> Personally, the only way I can do a power exchange is if the other
>> person becomes more in the process and not less. To make someone less
>> than what they can be seems very abusive to me. It sounds like your Dom
>> and I are fully in agreement on this point.
> ...
> For me, this is the essence of D/s. It's at least self-defeating to make
> less of what you "own", isn't it?
Yep, I can be proud of my sub and our relationship wherever we go. I
wouldn't have it any other way. The benefits of encouraging her development
are obvious to me.
>
> I sometimes wonder why some Doms seem to want the Ford Escort of subs.
I see it as a sign of insecurity, a fear that the sub might become "too
good" for them.
>
>> This can be a problem. It is a way to help figure out who the real
>> stand up people are and who isn't. I've never had anyone I respected hit
>> on my sub behind my back, but lots of dweebs have. I had one fool come to
>> me and ask about topping her in a very oblique manner without coming out
>> and saying he was interested in topping her. I indicated that for him
>> this was never going to happen. He still went to her and asked her more
>> directly, knowing full well that she was collared. The people who ask her
>> first pretty much put themselves on the will not touch list. She directs
>> them to me, but so far none of the people who asked her first have come
>> to me. She says it's because I'm scary, but I don't see it. I'm a
>> sweetie.
>
> I'm just curious, is your arrangement that other Doms have to have your
> permission to communicate with her?
I don't practice speech control in any manner, with the rare exception
of during a scene sometimes. At the club I don't know of anyone who finds it
practical to limit who the sub can talk to. Our club house tends to be very
informal, we're a pretty easy going bunch. People will sometimes ask, just
to be sure they aren't stepping on any toes, but I've never seen anyone get
tense about it. (Things do get more formal in the play space, but that's
just the nature of the beast. The rule is that you stay away from other
people's scenes unless you're the dungeon master or have a very good reason
to believe that you're welcome.) She also participates in some online boards
with both Doms and subs. Our relationship is such that I don't see any
reason to limit who she talks to.
>
> Or just to approach her re. play & such?
She does not have the right to consent to play with anyone. I control
who she plays with. To me approaching a collared submissive and asking them
to do a scene is the same as asking a married woman to have sex. Depending
on the circumstances there are certain niceties the husband or Dom would
expect. Asking in my presence would be acceptable. Within the limits of our
agreement she still wouldn't have much say in the matter, but it would at
least be within what I consider to be acceptable manners. Waiting until
she's out of my sight is an obviously intentional breach of etiquette to me.
>
> Does she wear a physical collar?
She doesn't wear it all the time, but at the club she always does.
There she would feel naked without it, even when she's naked. She also has
her wedding ring. Her collar isn't anything fancy. In line with our tastes,
it's just a simple little leather band with a plain buckle that I made for
her. It fits loosely so it's comfortable for her.
It might not show here, but I'm a pretty easy going guy. I don't have
to be a tough guy Dom. I'm confident of her loyalty and submission to me.
>
> Also, if you don't mind, do let her know that I am with her 100% in that
> "can't Top" thing; it would make me quite nauseous, too, to even
> contemplate giving someone a spanking or such, even though I am very
> assertive (aggressive?) in almost all other areas of my life.
She enjoyed the comment. I had been aware that she wasn't a top, but
her reaction to giving a birthday spanking still surprised me. Her birthdays
can be interesting, but I'm not likely to repeat that one. It was more cruel
than I had expected. It was so rough for her that she had to excuse herself
in the middle of it, but she did complete it. Much like the rollercoaster
scene it was one of those scenes were the Dom can have a perverse pride in
the sub's submission.
TB
Technobarbarian
>
> "Technobarbarian" <Technobarbar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:z%1Qg.12$La2.0@fed1read08...
>> I've sent a sub to the local group. It was a good idea and it worked
>> out well over the long run, but my goals were far less ambitious than
>> what you may be facing. For dispelling stereotypes and getting
>> comfortable with being kinked it can be great. For learning who you
>> aren't it might work well. For learning who you are I'm more pessimistic.
>> That's a tall order. It can't hurt. <laughing at myself>
>
> Well, to at least get a different perspective than his. I have absolutely
> NOTHING against being exactly what he envisions a sub to be, but for some
> reasons he`s opposed to my being limited in such a way *grins* go
> figure...
I like your Dom. He has a head on his shoulders. Just like everyone else
subs become who they are. About all a Dom can really hope for is to
facilitate that process. The woman I sent to the local club thought she was
a 24/7 submissive. I tried to explain that this wasn't likely, but.........
She eventually evolved into a switch. These days, even at her most
submissive, she doesn't really give up all that much control. From our
current emotional distance I take a certain amount of pride in the fact that
much of what she's teaching others she originally learned from me.
Personally, the only way I can do a power exchange is if the other
person becomes more in the process and not less. To make someone less than
what they can be seems very abusive to me. It sounds like your Dom and I are
fully in agreement on this point.
> Wow! That makes this group of people look like your average everyday
> person, in spite of their bdsm affiliation :o Actually, I was shocked at
> how normal they seemed :) I think if the people hadn`t appeared so
> normal, I would have absolutely refused to go back to either group ever,
> and not been willing to budge on it..
LOL, yep we're a surprisingly "normal" bunch of people. When you scratch
below the surface even the more colorful folks aren't all that far off from
fairly ordinary. The gay drag queen/lesbian wife couple were typical parents
with all the usual problems and responses. Both of us now have friends both
from that original very colorful cast of characters and others every bit as
colorful. I've decided that while I'm not all that colorful on the outside
I'm still just as much a part of the "freak show" as them. I'm honored that
they accept me as part of the group. I would also add that we also have a
lot of friends that you would not spot as kinked out on the street.
> But they did seem fairly normal, and so far its all been actual couples,
> so the dreaded "being hit on by another dom" hasn`t happened. I`m sure
> I`d refuse to go back for that too.
This can be a problem. It is a way to help figure out who the real stand
up people are and who isn't. I've never had anyone I respected hit on my sub
behind my back, but lots of dweebs have. I had one fool come to me and ask
about topping her in a very oblique manner without coming out and saying he
was interested in topping her. I indicated that for him this was never going
to happen. He still went to her and asked her more directly, knowing full
well that she was collared. The people who ask her first pretty much put
themselves on the will not touch list. She directs them to me, but so far
none of the people who asked her first have come to me. She says it's
because I'm scary, but I don't see it. I'm a sweetie.
It's difficult for us because unless she's pushed she prefers to be soft
spoken and a bit shy in public. (She can do the tough business woman thing,
but it's always a relief for her to get home on those days.) I, on the other
hand, can be a bit undiplomatic and ugly if crossed (yeah, I know, hard to
believe--go figure.) Between the two of us it doesn't take us long to
educate the clue impaired, but it's sometime difficult to do with the level
of finesse I prefer. It's another place where the kinked are very ordinary
people, we also get our fair share of the clue impaired.
TB
Troia
... [responding to Dragonfly]
> subs become who they are. About all a Dom can really hope for is to
> facilitate that process. The woman I sent to the local club thought she was
> a 24/7 submissive. I tried to explain that this wasn't likely, but.........
> She eventually evolved into a switch. These days, even at her most
> submissive, she doesn't really give up all that much control. From our
> current emotional distance I take a certain amount of pride in the fact that
> much of what she's teaching others she originally learned from me.
>
> Personally, the only way I can do a power exchange is if the other
> person becomes more in the process and not less. To make someone less than
> what they can be seems very abusive to me. It sounds like your Dom and I are
> fully in agreement on this point.
For me, this is the essence of D/s. It's at least self-defeating to
make less of what you "own", isn't it?
I sometimes wonder why some Doms seem to want the Ford Escort of subs.
> This can be a problem. It is a way to help figure out who the real stand
> up people are and who isn't. I've never had anyone I respected hit on my sub
> behind my back, but lots of dweebs have. I had one fool come to me and ask
> about topping her in a very oblique manner without coming out and saying he
> was interested in topping her. I indicated that for him this was never going
> to happen. He still went to her and asked her more directly, knowing full
> well that she was collared. The people who ask her first pretty much put
> themselves on the will not touch list. She directs them to me, but so far
> none of the people who asked her first have come to me. She says it's
> because I'm scary, but I don't see it. I'm a sweetie.
I'm just curious, is your arrangement that other Doms have to have your
permission to communicate with her?
Or just to approach her re. play & such?
Does she wear a physical collar?
Also, if you don't mind, do let her know that I am with her 100% in that
"can't Top" thing; it would make me quite nauseous, too, to even
contemplate giving someone a spanking or such, even though I am very
assertive (aggressive?) in almost all other areas of my life.
-- Troia
LadyGold
wrote:
>Heh. I think I still owe you a scene, by the way. I will be in OK
>again in May, though I'm not sure yet if I'm going to Tulsa this time.
>Any chance you have a Seattle trip coming up anytime soon?
Nothing on the calendar ... yet. But I assure you - you will be at
the top of the list of People to Be Notified.
OK in general is not that far from Dallas. [hint, hint]
LadyGold, High Sheriff of Nettingham, OCF and PBB
Lumber Cartel Unit 2514 (tinlc)
aka Taipan's dorei
--
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny....'" - Isaac Asimov
Dragonfly
"Technobarbarian" <Technobarbar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:%CVQg.244$La2.88@fed1read08...
>> Well, to at least get a different perspective than his. I have
>> absolutely NOTHING against being exactly what he envisions a sub to be,
>> but for some reasons he`s opposed to my being limited in such a way
>> *grins* go figure...
>
> I like your Dom. He has a head on his shoulders.
That he does, far more than I do. To be fair, I still get dizzy-starry-eyed
with him around all the time, and so thinking (never my strong point) isn`t
something I do much of :D
Seriously, he is incredibly smart, and knows what he is doing. Thankfully,
because I haven`t a clue. I don`t know how I got so lucky, but I`m glad for
it.
> Just like everyone else subs become who they are. About all a Dom can
> really hope for is to facilitate that process.
Makes sense, theoretically. Tied up with the drive to please, though, its
hard to see how badly such a focus could affect me in the long run. Its
almost like ... all my life, I`ve repressed this need and now he`s here and
oof, I can`t turn it off anymore, and could care less how lost I get as long
as he keeps smiling that gorgeous smile at me.. :/ The whole relationship
has definitely done wonders to my sense of self though, even in spite of
that. My own strength and steadiness are so much more than they were before
I met him, though I have no idea how he did it :D
> The woman I sent to the local club thought she was a 24/7 submissive. I
> tried to explain that this wasn't likely, but......... She eventually
> evolved into a switch. These days, even at her most submissive, she
> doesn't really give up all that much control. From our current emotional
> distance I take a certain amount of pride in the fact that much of what
> she's teaching others she originally learned from me.
That`s funny, I was actually told I would be a 24/7 sub, and rejected the
idea entirely as rediculous. I find myself now in a 24/7 D/s relationship,
quite comfortably. I think a lot of it is hard to know, one way or the
other, until you try it. I thought a lot of things about a lot of different
bdsm activities, but I`m finding out I was pretty far off on a lot of my
opinions about what I would like and what I wouldn`t.
> Personally, the only way I can do a power exchange is if the other
> person becomes more in the process and not less. To make someone less than
> what they can be seems very abusive to me. It sounds like your Dom and I
> are fully in agreement on this point.
My first dom made me less, much less, turned me into a "chained to the bed"
playtoy. My current mate has been spending all his time and energy outside
work to "rebuild" me into who I was before, and claims that after that, we
might be able to figure out who I am now. I think you and he would
definitely be in agreement, too bad he doesn`t do newsgroups :) But it is
hard to know just what is rebuilding me and what is shaping me to fit his
desire, and I think that is where he worries that his influence on me might
be too much, if I continue to be this isolated.
>> Wow! That makes this group of people look like your average everyday
>> person, in spite of their bdsm affiliation :o Actually, I was shocked at
>> how normal they seemed :) I think if the people hadn`t appeared so
>> normal, I would have absolutely refused to go back to either group ever,
>> and not been willing to budge on it..
>
> LOL, yep we're a surprisingly "normal" bunch of people. When you
> scratch below the surface even the more colorful folks aren't all that far
> off from fairly ordinary. The gay drag queen/lesbian wife couple were
> typical parents with all the usual problems and responses. Both of us now
> have friends both from that original very colorful cast of characters and
> others every bit as colorful. I've decided that while I'm not all that
> colorful on the outside I'm still just as much a part of the "freak show"
> as them. I'm honored that they accept me as part of the group. I would
> also add that we also have a lot of friends that you would not spot as
> kinked out on the street.
You`d not be able to tell I was kinked, at all, from looking at me (ok,
minus the collar, really!) and that much I know just from the gay community
that people don`t "look" like anything but people for the most part. It
actually really surprised me, I think I expected to see people in fetish
gear or whatever, but they were even dressed normally. Except for collars
on the subs, those weren`t what I`d call discrete, not like my collar, but
everything else except the interactions with each other was too normal, it
was hard to remember that these people were ahh... like you all here :)
>
>> But they did seem fairly normal, and so far its all been actual couples,
>> so the dreaded "being hit on by another dom" hasn`t happened. I`m sure
>> I`d refuse to go back for that too.
>
> This can be a problem. It is a way to help figure out who the real
> stand up people are and who isn't. I've never had anyone I respected hit
> on my sub behind my back, but lots of dweebs have. I had one fool come to
> me and ask about topping her in a very oblique manner without coming out
> and saying he was interested in topping her. I indicated that for him this
> was never going to happen. He still went to her and asked her more
> directly, knowing full well that she was collared. The people who ask her
> first pretty much put themselves on the will not touch list. She directs
> them to me, but so far none of the people who asked her first have come to
> me. She says it's because I'm scary, but I don't see it. I'm a sweetie.
Heh, yea, that`s been the most frightening part. Partly because I know I`m
too shy and quiet for my own good, and half because I do still have trouble
differenciating between who`s ok and who`s not going to play nice. He
wouldn`t have any problem with someone approaching me and wanting to play,
as long as it eventually got to him for permission of course. I`m not even
sure if I do need his permission to play with someone else, actually. But,
for my own peace of mind and sense of security I asked (begged, really...
sigh..) if we could agree that anyone wanting to play with me needed to talk
to him first. The night before going to the munch group the first time, I
asked that and he agreed, though I know it was more because I was scared
than because that`s how he`d want it.
I have no idea how play with others would work, but I imagine that anyone
who`s got half a mind will not need much time to realize I`m collared and
even who it is that owns me. And I suspect that anyone who respected me
enough to be safe to play with would of their own accord insist on talking
to him before doing anything with me. But its not the honourable ones that
would worry me...
He`s sweet to me, but frightening to anyone who looks at me wrong *amused*
and I wouldn`t be surprised if people didn`t want to go talk to him about me
because of it. Hmm, overprotective a little? :)
> It's difficult for us because unless she's pushed she prefers to be
> soft spoken and a bit shy in public. (She can do the tough business woman
> thing, but it's always a relief for her to get home on those days.) I, on
> the other hand, can be a bit undiplomatic and ugly if crossed (yeah, I
> know, hard to believe--go figure.)
Hard to believe, oh yes :) I`m like you describe her, and I think that is
part of what makes me so nervous. I used to work as an office manager, and
I`d come home so exhuasted from having to be a stubborn, obnoxious bitch
that I`d spend all my free time reading fantasy novels just to get away from
it. I wish I`d known my master back then, it would have made *that*
high-paying job almost tolerable! But I am so not naturally like that, and
I`ve come across a lot of people who take my er, gentleness? as a sign that
even if I say no I really mean yes. Its part of what makes me think I maybe
should hang on to him for the rest of my life, if only for warding off the
fools who think my softly spoken no means yes in disguise, or who can`t hear
me above their own outspoken voices. He has no problems being blunt and
ahh... as forceful as necessary to make the other person understand. Much
to my relief :D
> Between the two of us it doesn't take us long to educate the clue
> impaired, but it's sometime difficult to do with the level of finesse I
> prefer. It's another place where the kinked are very ordinary people, we
> also get our fair share of the clue impaired.
Lucky for me, the ones I met all seem pretty clueful, so I`ve yet to
actually experience that (since being bonded to him at least) outside of my
own fears. Hard to look calm and collected when you`re beating someone over
the head with a wooden bat to get them to understand what you`re saying? :)
> TB
Dragonfly
Dragonfly
*laughs!* .....
*laughs some more!*
You`re right. Although coming from me, more likely it`ll be claw-marks.
Biting is for people I like, not people who upset me. :)
Seriously.... I emailed her, she responded. The next meeting is Oct 13th.
I`m going. From what I`ve seen, likely the only other person at that group
who`s going to be as hmm.... not-meek as I am is the leader woman. But only
after I stop being painfully shy and afraid of the very dustmotes, much less
the people there... :/ Its still far away and I`m already getting worried
about it.
Dragonfly -thankfully too busy with school to be bothered during daylight
hours.