Pick-up artists: sh*t, burritos, and rubber husbands
Cedric Chin
|> le...@lorelei.Eng.Sun.COM (Laura Lemay - IWTFM) writes:
|> >
|> >Personally, I've had the same experience Mel has, and I agree with her
|> >that if all you're looking for is really terrific sex, then the pick
|> >up artists are usually the way to go.
|>
|>
|> >Alas, quite a few of the men I've tried to teach (or even tried just
|> >to explain to them what I'd like) refuse to be taught or even get
|> >offended that you would suggest that they don't know what they're
|> >doing at every single moment during the act.
Laura, and Mel, I'm truly offended at you. Skip the next paragraph.
I'm not sure why. Maybe b/c I expect much higher standards
in the people I know. Maybe b/c I don't "pick-up" women yet give
"terrific sex". Maybe b/c I prefer the term, "make love" to "sex",
and your definition of sex is much lower than mine. Maybe b/c
you're receiving your impression of men from sleazy pickup artists.
Soapbox over.
Mel and Laura, just look for a communicative partner, OK?
Please, please, don't do this "pickup" crap again. If you're
interested in having sex, ask an attractive man out, get to know
him, and only if he is sensitive to your needs, make love to him.
No, this **doesn't** have to take very long. (Needs could even
be as little as one night of sex.)
*****
More, but less important.
A pickup artist is a salesman.
As the research saying goes, the researcher with the most
money is the researcher who writes the best proposals.
A pickup artist is a convenient method of obtaining sex.
You know what they look like, you know what they want,
you know how long they'll commit. My opinion about this
sort of convenience is along the lines of my opinion about
microwave burritos: This is sh*t. Don't support sh*t.
But most importantly, pickup artists are not representative of men.
A true man will listen to your needs. Look for such a man. Please.
They are out there.
*****
Finally, for "terrific sex", use your imagination and your hands.
Literature and rubber husband optional.
Don't settle for second best. -- madonna
Make love, not sex. -- ME
Meloney D Cregor
Please post this for me.
Mel, I wrote a letter that pretty much flamed you and Laura.
Don't take it personally.
Here's what I should [also] have said as a caveat:
IMO, Looking for a great mindless f*ck is like looking for a great piece of sh*t.
You have better things to do.
thx.
--
We may live without friends, we may live without books,
But civilized man cannot live without cooks.
-- Aristipus
Dan Bernstein
>
>IMO, Looking for a great mindless f*ck is like looking for a great piece of sh*t.
>You have better things to do.
But, what if you're out in the middle of the prarie? Wouldn't you want to
start a fire, and have to look around for cowpatties?
--
--- Aahz
@netcom.uucp (or apple!netcom!aahz)
Just think -- National Enquirer readers are among the elite minority
who actually read . . .
have a nice day.
Meloney D Cregor
>
>|> >to explain to them what I'd like) refuse to be taught or even get
>|> >offended that you would suggest that they don't know what they're
>|> >doing at every single moment during the act.
>
>
>Laura, and Mel, I'm truly offended at you. Skip the next paragraph.
Well, Cedric, shit happens.
>"terrific sex". Maybe b/c I prefer the term, "make love" to "sex",
>and your definition of sex is much lower than mine. Maybe b/c
Shall I raise it an octave?
>Mel and Laura, just look for a communicative partner, OK?
Um, Cedric, I think Laura and I can figure out what we want just fine, thanks.
>Please, please, don't do this "pickup" crap again. If you're
Why? Sometimes it's fun. But then _I_ would usually be doing the picking up.
>A pickup artist is a convenient method of obtaining sex.
>You know what they look like, you know what they want,
>you know how long they'll commit. My opinion about this
>sort of convenience is along the lines of my opinion about
>microwave burritos: This is sh*t. Don't support sh*t.
But better than being hungry.
>Look for such a man. Please.
Don't need to. I already found him.
>Finally, for "terrific sex", use your imagination and your hands.
(grin) If I had any more imagination, I don't think certain people could
stand it.
Laura Lemay - IWTFM
> |> >
> |> >Personally, I've had the same experience Mel has, and I agree with her
> |> >that if all you're looking for is really terrific sex, then the pick
> |> >up artists are usually the way to go.
[cedric here skips a great deal of my post]
> |> >Alas, quite a few of the men I've tried to teach (or even tried just
> |> >to explain to them what I'd like) refuse to be taught or even get
> |> >offended that you would suggest that they don't know what they're
> |> >doing at every single moment during the act.
>
>Laura, and Mel, I'm truly offended at you. Skip the next paragraph.
>
> I'm not sure why. Maybe b/c I expect much higher standards
> in the people I know.
Yes, we're just a bunch of sluts, aren't we.
> Maybe b/c I don't "pick-up" women yet give
> "terrific sex". Maybe b/c I prefer the term, "make love" to "sex",
Thats you're opinion.
> and your definition of sex is much lower than mine.
Thats also your opinion. Do not presume to impose your opinions on me
or on Mel.
> Maybe b/c
> you're receiving your impression of men from sleazy pickup artists.
Cedric. Settle down. You are confusing the two threads of the above
article:
1. Pick up artists and casual sex -- who cares if they're good or not,
its casual sex. Big deal.
2. Teaching "real" partners. These are *not* the pick-up artists,
these are lovers one is dating that one has gotten to know.
Two parts. We are not trying to make good lovers out of the pick up
artists. The pick up artists aren't worth the effort. And no, we
aren't getting our impressions of men from the pick up artists.
Read my posting again.
> Mel and Laura, just look for a communicative partner, OK?
We do. If we are interested in a real relationship, then yes, we do.
Or at least I do. I am assuming I can speak for Mel.
> Please, please, don't do this "pickup" crap again.
How is it any of your business how me or Mel or anyone else conducts
our sex lives?
> If you're
> interested in having sex, ask an attractive man out, get to know
> him, and only if he is sensitive to your needs, make love to him.
> No, this **doesn't** have to take very long. (Needs could even
> be as little as one night of sex.)
So I see, I should ask a guy out, and make him believe that I like
him, date him a few times, and then fuck him and dump him. That
somehow, making sure he likes me first makes it ok. ah. I understand
now.
You're missing the point, Cedric. So you don't like casual sex. Thats
your prerogative. But there are those of us who feel it does have a place.
And in these cases, we don't want a realtionship. We don't want to get
to know the man in question. We just want to get laid. In these cases,
finding someone with equal goals is the way to go, to prevent hurting
men who *are* interested in more than just one-night stands.
As long as neither partner is hurt by it, who cares?
> But most importantly, pickup artists are not representative of men.
> A true man will listen to your needs. Look for such a man. Please.
> They are out there.
Of course they are. We were not saying they weren't. Read the
posting over again, Cedric. There are **two** parts to it.
> Finally, for "terrific sex", use your imagination and your hands.
> Literature and rubber husband optional.
Often, this is not enough. I have had lovers get brutally upset that I
was creative and knowledgeable in bed, and lovers who still believed that
women should not have **any** sexual experience at all. And these
are often sensitive, modern, communicative men in all other respects.
They just have backwards ideas about women and sex.
You cannot speak for the entire male sex, Cedric. It may work for
you, but not for everyone, alas.
--
*********************************************************
Laura Lemay le...@sun.com
Redhead. Drummer. Geek. (tm) sun!lemay
*********************************************************
Tigger
>
> You're missing the point, Cedric. So you don't like casual sex. Thats
> your prerogative. But there are those of us who feel it does have a place.
> And in these cases, we don't want a realtionship. We don't want to get
> to know the man in question. We just want to get laid. In these cases,
> finding someone with equal goals is the way to go, to prevent hurting
> men who *are* interested in more than just one-night stands.
>
> As long as neither partner is hurt by it, who cares?
That's a mighty big "as long." In principle, I agree, but in most of the
cases that I have seen, one of the people involved really _did_ want something
more, even if he or she wouldn't admit it. And so they ended up hurt. It's
pretty much their own fault, but... The point is that, unfortunately, one
can't always make the assumption that the other person doesn't care and won't
be hurt, 'cause often that just isn't the case.
Greg Orman
gr...@pomona.claremont.edu
gr...@pomona.bitnet
Patricia Mae Anthony
>In article <1991Jan11.1...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> m...@niblick.ecn.purdue.edu (Meloney D Cregor) writes:
>>
>>IMO, Looking for a great mindless f*ck is like looking for a great piece of sh*t.
>>You have better things to do.
>>ced...@mariposa.sun.com
>
>But, what if you're out in the middle of the prarie? Wouldn't you want to
>start a fire, and have to look around for cowpatties?
>--
>
CowPatti
Dave Eisen
>A true man will listen to your needs. Look for such a man. Please.
Why should I? Who wants a man to listen to my needs? Thats what my
friends are for.
And saying please won't help.
Dave's girlfriend
Eric Thomas, SUNET
>in most of the cases that I have seen, one of the people involved really
>_did_ want something more, even if he or she wouldn't admit it. And so they
>ended up hurt.
I'm not sure Laura and you are talking about the same thing. I think she was
referring to people she just met a few hours before, not people she'd been
knowing for a while and who she decided she'd like to have sex with for one
night. In that (former) case, what you are describing does sometimes happen,
but the person in question did not want *you*, but rather *someone* who would
give him/her the affection he/she desperately needs (you just happened to be a
potential target). A distressing number of people attempt to substitute sex for
love, and end up with these kind of feelings in the morning. The best you can
do for them is spend some time talking to them to help them out of their
problem, suggest better ways/attitudes for them to meet people they might later
engage in "mindful" sex with, etc. Not having done anything with them would
just have resulted in someone else doing it, and showing them the way to the
front door in the morning...
Eric
Patricia Mae Anthony
>In article <1991Jan11...@sif.claremont.edu>, gr...@sif.claremont.edu (Tigger) writes...
>>in most of the cases that I have seen, one of the people involved really
>>_did_ want something more, even if he or she wouldn't admit it. And so they
>>ended up hurt.
>
Just because "most of the cases" he's seen have been those in which one of
the people got hurt, doesn't mean that it always happens this way. And it
doesn't mean that the other person purposely took advantage of the other.
If you can't speak up for what you want, and if you are going to stuff
your feelings "hoping" the other person give it to you, then there is a
good chance you will end up hurt. This does not mean that it is always
bad to have sex with someone for the night, and it doesn't mean that if
you do you probably will get hurt. Getting hurt has more to do with not
making it clear what you want.
>I'm not sure Laura and you are talking about the same thing. I think she was
>referring to people she just met a few hours before, not people she'd been
>knowing for a while and who she decided she'd like to have sex with for one
>night. In that (former) case, what you are describing does sometimes happen,
>but the person in question did not want *you*, but rather *someone* who would
>give him/her the affection he/she desperately needs (you just happened to be a
>love, and end up with these kind of feelings in the morning. The best you can
>do for them is spend some time talking to them to help them out of their
>engage in "mindful" sex with, etc. Not having done anything with them would
>just have resulted in someone else doing it, and showing them the way to the
>front door in the morning...
The "best" thing you can do for them is to tell them from the beginning
what you want and don't want. If they want a shrink, they can go find one
to their liking. If they want understanding and companionship, they can
ask you for it. You aren't doing them any favors by appointing yourself
their "guardian" for the night, and assuming that you are going to "help
them out of their problem". What is the "problem" with this person? Only
that they sit and hope rather than saying what they want. You don't have
to save anybody from anything. Just say what you want and ask them what
they want. If they get hurt somewhere and come to you, you can understand
their feelings and address their pain like a good friend. You don't have
to go into shrink mode, you don't have to fix it for them, you don't have
to "save" them from themselves or anyone else that you think might have
to take advantage of them.
Patricia
Tigger
> In article <1991Jan11...@sif.claremont.edu>, gr...@sif.claremont.edu (Tigger) writes...
>>in most of the cases that I have seen, one of the people involved really
>>_did_ want something more, even if he or she wouldn't admit it. And so they
>>ended up hurt.
>
> I'm not sure Laura and you are talking about the same thing. I think she was
> referring to people she just met a few hours before, not people she'd been
> knowing for a while and who she decided she'd like to have sex with for one
> night.
Actually, that's exactly what I was talking about. Right off the top I my
head I can think of an excellent example. One of my good friends in college
used to end up going home with or bringing home (if you can call a dorm room
"home") various and sundry women after parties. In many cases they ended up
hurt and pissed that he didn't particularly care to see them again. I know
this because he was always complaining about how they were 'pestering' him.
Of course I didn't have much sympathy for him, but the point is that these
were all women that he had "just met a few hours before."
> In that (former) case, what you are describing does sometimes happen,
> but the person in question did not want *you*, but rather *someone* who would
> give him/her the affection he/she desperately needs (you just happened to be a
> potential target). A distressing number of people attempt to substitute sex for
> love, and end up with these kind of feelings in the morning. The best you can
> do for them is spend some time talking to them to help them out of their
> problem, suggest better ways/attitudes for them to meet people they might later
> engage in "mindful" sex with, etc. Not having done anything with them would
> just have resulted in someone else doing it, and showing them the way to the
> front door in the morning...
This is a very interesting way to look at it. I have a suspecion that the
other person isn't really going to appreciate your help at the time, but
perhaps they'll be able to look back on it a bit later and agree that it was
better than being shown the front door. Maybe it might even make a difference
in their lives as you suggest. I'll have to keep that in mind in the future
in the unlikely event that I end up in such a situation...
Greg Orman
gr...@pomona.claremont.edu
gr...@pomona.bitnet
Patricia Mae Anthony
>In article <20...@netcom.UUCP>, cowp...@netcom.UUCP (Patricia Mae Anthony) writes...
>>The "best" thing you can do for them is to tell them from the beginning
>>what you want and don't want. If they want a shrink, they can go find one
>>to their liking. If they want understanding and companionship, they can
>>ask you for it.
>
>spontaneously. They tell you they want to sleep with you tonight. Well, I
>suppose you can answer "Are you sure you wouldn't be better off visiting a
>shrink instead?", but it sounds like a pretty unwarranted and rude thing to
>ask, unless you have a good reason to suspect such problems do exist.
I never suggested that you ask them anything. Telling them from the
beginning that you want to spend the night with them is all you have to
say. I don't suggest to people that they need a shrink "instead." If
I suspect someone is struggling with something, I may lend a sympathetic
ear in another setting. I disagree with making assumptions about people
just because they may have decided at some point that something a little
more than companionship would be nice.
>>You aren't doing them any favors by appointing yourself
>>their "guardian" for the night, and assuming that you are going to "help
>>them out of their problem" (...) you don't have
>>to "save" them from themselves or anyone else that you think might have
>>to take advantage of them.
>
>I think you misunderstood me. I'm not a shrink, and if I were one I would
>certainly want my customers to pay good money for my advice :-) I wasn't
>talking about spotting girls with suitable psychological problems, taking them
>home, and giving them a free psychanalysis to give yourself a good conscience.
>That's what *I* would call "taking advantage of them". I meant that if, in the
>morning, the girl goes into I-wanna-hang-myself mode when she is about to
>you to feel guilty about having slept with her, because (1) the problem already
>existed before and you just made it come back to the surface, and (2) someone
>a different apartment, possibly being told to get lost.
I didn't imply that you specifically went after women in a maniuplative way.
I don't think you are responsible for helping her to solve her problem,
unless you decide that you want to support her by being a good listener
and perhaps suggesting a counselor if the discussion even goes that far.
Yes, the problem already existed. And no, you did nothing to feel guilty
about. But then why do you say "someone else would have slept with her
anyway...." That sounds like rationalization to me, and I don't understand
what you mean by it.
Patricia
.
Eric Thomas, SUNET
>One of my good friends in college
>used to end up going home with or bringing home (if you can call a dorm room
>"home") various and sundry women after parties. In many cases they ended up
>hurt and pissed that he didn't particularly care to see them again. I know
>this because he was always complaining about how they were 'pestering' him.
>Of course I didn't have much sympathy for him, but the point is that these
>were all women that he had "just met a few hours before."
But you don't know what he had told them. If he had not been honest with them,
it is clearly possible that they were genuinely hurt, having hoped for much
more than a one-night fling. People tend, unfortunately, not to be honest with
people they are seeking sex with; for instance, about 1 month ago a girl asked
me for change in a bar so she could use the phone (she only had one coin). I
gave her some change, she thanked me, asked for my name, said she liked it, and
then said "I love you". This is clearly an extreme example, but it goes to show
that some people have no qualms producing as much BS as they need to get what
they want, and never mind the consequences it might have for the other.
>This is a very interesting way to look at it. I have a suspecion that the
>other person isn't really going to appreciate your help at the time, but
>perhaps they'll be able to look back on it a bit later and agree that it was
>better than being shown the front door.
It all depends on the person. If she is in "you-*****-bastard" mode, she
probably isn't going to like it and will find the way to the front door by
herself, I suppose. On the other hand if she is in depressed "nobody-will-ever-
love-me" mode, she is more likely to react positively to the fact that you
offer for her to stay a bit longer and talk about it (if you didn't care, why
would you try to comfort her?). You're still an anonymous person to her,
someone who isn't going to tell her friends and relatives, and someone that she
will probably never meet again (unless she wants to) and feel the need to
apologize to for having sounded so immature/dumb/whatever. It isn't a binary
thing though, I doubt she'd act on that advice right away, but if other people
have been telling her the same thing, perhaps in different words, it might make
a difference. Or it might not, but at least you've done what you could -
without being lured into extending a commitment you did not want to extend past
this point.
Eric
Eric Thomas, SUNET
>beginning that you want to spend the night with them is all you have to
>say.
Sample scenario:
Girl: "So you're showing me the way out, like all the others, eh?"
Guy: "But... Hadn't I told you it was only for this night???"
Girl: "You did... I can't blame you, I just hate guys for being so selfish!"
Guy: "I see... Why didn't you SAY you wanted more?"
Girl: "Yeah, sure, I should say that, and be alone all the time, right. Thank
you! #include <loneliness.h>"
>I don't think you are responsible for helping her to solve her problem,
>unless you decide that you want to support her by being a good listener
>and perhaps suggesting a counselor if the discussion even goes that far.
I didn't say I felt responsible. I just felt sorry.
>why do you say "someone else would have slept with her
>anyway...." That sounds like rationalization to me, and I don't understand
>what you mean by it.
I meant the girl wanted the illusion of love so desperately that she'd probably
have found someone else to sleep with her that night. To be contrasted with the
case of a girl you met, say, in a bookshop and whom you spent hours seducing,
who might have thought she would eventually fall in love with you and was
afraid to lose you if she didn't sleep with you tonight, deluded herself into
thinking your "just this night" meant "you don't have to stay after tonight if
you don't want to", etc - all that nonsense because she wanted to have a
relationship with you so badly and didn't want to admit to herself that it just
wasn't going to happen (I've had to comfort a couple friends who had done
something similar, it's hard to believe how naive people can get sometimes).
And what is so wrong with rationalization anyway?
Eric
Bill HMRP Vajk
> In article <910111000...@blaisejr.Corp.Sun.COM> Cedric Chin writes:
> >But most importantly, pickup artists are not representative of men.
> >A true man will listen to your needs. Look for such a man. Please.
> Why should I? Who wants a man to listen to my needs? Thats what my
> friends are for.
> And saying please won't help.
> Dave's girlfriend
Pick up artists ? Who are they after all. Are you defining them as fellows
who get a date and get laid first time out ? Or the second time ? Or how
long does it take ? And is it a requirement that they drop the woman
immediately afterwards ?
Or is a pickup artist someone who can befriend a stranger so thoruoghly
at first meeting that they click and rush headlong into some form or
relationship or another ?
I would hope to achieve whatever the maximum success might be in befriending
people I meet. My agenda, whatever it might be, as it varies from newly met
person to newly met person, is my business, and hers. I have women I listen
to, women I sympathize with, women to whom I give assistance, and women
with whom I have intimate deeply satisfying relationships (serially...) And
interestingly there has, in my life, been very little overlap in these modes.
The women with whom the greatest imtimacy happened did share other modes as
well with me, but they were strictly ancilliary, not focal, to the relationship.
Please ?
Please never got me anything at all.
The only person worthy of your attentions is one who manages to fulfill
your needs in a manner pleasing to you. Whatever those needs are.
There are times when we err.
Bill.etc | Honesty is a stronger medicine than sympathy,
| which may console, but often conceals.
| - Gretel Ehrlich
Dave Eisen
>>One of my good friends in college
>>used to end up going home with or bringing home (if you can call a dorm room
>>"home") various and sundry women after parties. In many cases they ended up
>>hurt and pissed that he didn't particularly care to see them again. I know
>
>it is clearly possible that they were genuinely hurt, having hoped for much
>more than a one-night fling.
Oh come on now. How can it matter what he told her?
You can hope all you want that things will develop into the world's most
storybook relationship. You can hope that. But can you expect it? Can the
guy even know what kind of situation he wants with someone he just met
at a party? I don't see where it matters much what he said regarding his
intentions. I can't imagine a woman taking any action based upon hearing
someone she just met say that he wants to buy real estate with her some
day. I just can't see it.
So how can it matter what he said?
In case this is ever at issue, let me make this clear for any of the
net.women who might care about such things. If I ever meet one of
you at a Boink and suggest we go off somewhere to amuse ourselves,
I am not making any real or implied suggestion of any long term
plans. Nor am I precluding such plans. Play at your own risk.
Maybe I should get this notarized.
--
Dave Eisen "Making love is the fine food you eat at a meal.
1447 N. Shoreline Blvd. Mindless sex is the sh*t in the toilet."
Mountain View, CA 94043 --- Cedric Chin
(415) 967-5644 dke...@go4.stanford.edu
Eric Thomas, SUNET
>Oh come on now. How can it matter what he told her?
Some people are naive. You're not, good for you, but don't assume that
everybody necessarily has the same thought-patterns as you.
>I can't imagine a woman taking any action based upon hearing
>someone she just met say that he wants to buy real estate with her some
>day. I just can't see it.
I would agree with *that*, but what if he said "we could go to [insert "nice"
touristic resort name] together next month during the [insert vacations name],
it would be wonderful..."? That implies he wants to stay with the girl for that
much at least, and then take her on a nice romantic trip... and later... maybe,
oh just maybe... *siiiiiiigh*
Granted, neither *you* nor *I* would buy such BS, but there are people who
would. Granted, they ought to "grow up" and learn that the real world ain't
like the Prince Charming stories grandma used to tell them when they were kids.
But that doesn't mean the guy who purposefully told them such things hasn't
abused them, and it can't be used as an example to show that "one-night dating"
is intrinsically Evil.
Eric
Dave Eisen
woman he picks up at a casual net.gathering:
>
>Granted, neither *you* nor *I* would buy such BS, but there are people who
>would. Granted, they ought to "grow up" and learn that the real world ain't
>like the Prince Charming stories grandma used to tell them when they were kids.
>But that doesn't mean the guy who purposefully told them such things hasn't
>abused them, and it can't be used as an example to show that "one-night dating"
>is intrinsically Evil.
>
I think you missed my point.
I'm not talking about BS artists, of which I know only a few. I'm talking
about event the sincerest of men.
Even if a man says that he wants to see her again a lot, even if he
really is smitten with her, I don't think he has enough data either
on the woman or himself to know for sure whether or not he will even
want to see her afterward for anything more than a couple of
uncomfortable "trying to get this to work out" dates. How can he possibly
know what he wants?
And if he doesn't know what he wants, if it's obvious that he can't
know what he wants; how can it matter *what* he says?
Let me make clear that I find honesty to be the easiest and most
comfortable strategy for my behavior in this situation. If I
believed that certain behavior patterns were morally superior to
others; I'd probably say that honesty is Good.
But how does it really matter?
Nick Szabo
>
>someone she just met say that he wants to buy real estate with her some
>day. I just can't see it.
I would hope few men are so crude. Sightseeing houses is a
popular tradition with couples. My first date with one woman
(lunch) had her suggest a little tour of the local high-mortgage Stanford
suburbia on the way back to work. We ended up discussing how many square
feet, bedrooms etc. we each wanted in a house despite my studious attempts
to change the subject and finish the date. In hindsight, a local drive
through East Palo Alto -- "y'know, maybe if I eat more Top Ramen for
dinner I can afford that cute bungalow by the liquor store. Some
boards and a coat of green paint, a few bars on the doors, and it would
look kinda sharp, whadya think?" -- would have done the trick.
Oh, well, it wasn't so bad. I could fall in love with a woman who falls
in love with a house (as long as we could afford it.) Now back to our
regularly scheduled flamefest... :-)
--
Nick Szabo sz...@sequent.com
Embrace Change... Keep the Values... Hold Dear the Laughter...
Eric Thomas, SUNET
>Even if a man says that he wants to see her again a lot, even if he
>really is smitten with her, I don't think he has enough data either
>on the woman or himself to know for sure whether or not he will even
>want to see her afterward for anything more than a couple of
>uncomfortable "trying to get this to work out" dates.
I agree (even though you are being a tad negative here ;-) ). Unfortunately,
there are people who don't know that, and who seem to think that their teenager
dreams will come true some day - that they will meet someone, that it will be
love at first sight and that they will marry and live together in unparalleled
bliss (I'm afraid I personally know at least 2 people like that). Now I'm
not saying that this *can't* happen, but seeing this as something which "*will*
happen one day" (as opposed to something which *might* happen, with the same
probability as being killed while crossing the street, ie something you don't
think about constantly) leads to the kind of expectations and disappointments
we were talking about. This isn't the only behaviour that leads to this, but
it's one of them.
>And if he doesn't know what he wants, if it's obvious that he can't
>know what he wants; how can it matter *what* he says?
Let's assume that he isn't lying in order to abuse the girl, but really means
what he says (and doesn't realize how naive he is being). If the girl is
realistic, two things can happen: (a) it doesn't matter, because she realizes
he is getting carried away, or (b) it matters, because she doesn't like naive
people (or thinks he is a Dom Juan), and he isn't getting the date at all if he
comes up with this kind of crazy vacations proposals. If the girl is naive as
well (uh-oh...), it matters a lot, and crazy things can ensue. In that latter
case, though, they don't usually part in the morning. I would think that most
of the "morning disappointment" cases are due to people who only want sex and
have no qualms telling their prospective partners whatever they feel they need
to hear in order to accept to sleep with them.
Eric