Growing up gifted
Guy Barry
was very young and I gave a rather flippant answer. It deserves a
more serious response, I think. It's actually something I normally
avoid talking about, and there aren't many of those subjects. I
genuinely feel it's something that it's impossible to understand
properly unless you've experienced it yourself, and I'm not aware that
I've met many people like that.
Part of the problem, of course, is that unless you know someone very
well it's not the sort of information that they're likely to share
with you. I shared a house once with someone who'd been a musical
child prodigy, then been sent to study law at university, got into
drugs and dropped out. We got on very well although we're no longer
in touch. I've looked around to see if there are support groups for
such people, either "real-life" or online, and I haven't found any.
When one sees the amount of information available to parents of
"gifted" children it's a little surprising to discover the lack of
support in later life. (There are organizations like Mensa, but
that's a little different, I think.)
The closest I got was hearing a radio programme about ten years ago
where five former prodigies in various fields were interviewed in a
group - they ran the whole gamut of experience, with one still
extremely successful, one who dropped out and then got back into their
field again, one who got very depressed and was now in a low-level
menial job, and so on. It was quite a revelation.
For me, the experience of being very bright very young was quite
exhilarating. I was allowed to do all sorts of things that the other
children weren't - making up my own stories and reading them out to
the class, having my own maths textbooks, writing music and getting it
performed, and so on. I felt special and I was absolutely sure that I
wasn't going to grow up in the same way as the other children.
Then my mother decided to take me out of the state education system
and put me into a private school, and that was exciting too - I was a
year younger than the other children in my class, and I got to do
subjects like Latin that I hadn't experienced before. The boy who'd
previously been the brightest in the class got rather resentful of me
for a while, but generally I don't remember having too many problems.
At the age of twelve I won a scholarship to one of the most
prestigious independent schools in the country, which required weekly
boarding. In retrospect I don't think that was a great idea as I was
really too young to handle it. The school accelerated all the
brighter pupils by a year anyway, so by the time I took the first set
of public exams (normally taken at sixteen) I was two years ahead of
most of the population.
Although I did pretty well at that stage when I was studying a range
of subjects, I did less well at the following stage when I was
required to specialize. I chose two mathematics courses and two
modern languages, and found myself struggling with aspects of all of
them. I became very demoralized, stopped working properly, and felt I
had no one to turn to.
I took a year out but was still only seventeen when I started
university. I had pretty mediocre results through my entire period
there and ended up feeling a total failure. I took a job working for
the government, unconnected with what I'd studied, and after a few
weeks there started to feel suicidal. It had all been such a waste.
Fortunately I had a very supportive friend at the time who encouraged
me to go into postgraduate study. I never thought I'd be accepted at
first but managed to motivate myself enough to complete a Master's and
then get accepted onto a PhD programme. Once again the old feelings
of excitement about learning things started up - it was almost like
being a child once again.
Unfortunately, the pendulum swung too far in the other direction and I
started taking too much on. There was a very nasty incident at the
end of my first year as a PhD student which I think one or two people
here know about - I won't go into details but it was a result of
getting far too manic. I managed to complete the PhD but felt
thoroughly drained at the end of it and haven't done any serious
academic work since then. For the last fifteen years or so I'm
alternated between unemployment and a number of undemanding jobs.
So there you have it - it's just one person's experience, of course,
but as far as I'm concerned being an early achiever is definitely a
mixed blessing. My attitude now tends to be to accept it as a period
of my life that's over and try not to let it influence the way I am
now, but invariably it affects the way I regard myself at times.
Guy
Stef
Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Although I did pretty well at that stage when I was studying a range
>of subjects, I did less well at the following stage when I was
>required to specialize. I chose two mathematics courses and two
>modern languages, and found myself struggling with aspects of all of
>them. I became very demoralized, stopped working properly, and felt I
>had no one to turn to.
Thanks for posting this, it is interesting. I've read articles that
discuss how some/many people who are "gifted," to whom most things they
try come very easily at first, have problems applying themselves when
they finally encounter something that's difficult for them.
In my reply to your other post I mentioned that I also have had a
problem with this, although I don't consider myself "gifted" and wasn't
tracked that way; I was/am smart in a regular sort of way.
I'm not a psychologist and it's none of my business, but you used the
terms "depressed" and "manic," and I wondered if you have ever been
evaluated for bipolar disorder.
>So there you have it - it's just one person's experience, of course,
>but as far as I'm concerned being an early achiever is definitely a
>mixed blessing. My attitude now tends to be to accept it as a period
>of my life that's over and try not to let it influence the way I am
>now, but invariably it affects the way I regard myself at times.
Feelings of failure can be hard to forget. I hope you are able to move
on toward a life you're happier with.
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
Cartoon Law VIII:
Any violent rearrangement of feline matter is impermanent.
Corollary:
A cat will assume the shape of its container.
Guy Barry
> In article <03b195ed-17e6-4380-8c52-0b92ddc8f...@t47g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> Guy Barry <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Although I did pretty well at that stage when I was studying a range
> >of subjects, I did less well at the following stage when I was
> >required to specialize. I chose two mathematics courses and two
> >modern languages, and found myself struggling with aspects of all of
> >them. I became very demoralized, stopped working properly, and felt I
> >had no one to turn to.
>
Thanks for taking the time to read it.
> I've read articles that
> discuss how some/many people who are "gifted," to whom most things they
> try come very easily at first, have problems applying themselves when
> they finally encounter something that's difficult for them.
Yeah, and I would love to hear more from people with similar
experiences. After I posted the article I did a Web search to see if
I could find anything similar, and I came across this:
http://fitofpique.blogspot.com/2007/02/growing-up-gifted-when-i-went-crazy.html
There are elements in there that I can strongly relate to, and others
that are quite different from my experience, but what struck me was
how isolated the author felt in that respect: "I talk about all of my
identities a lot in my art practice and here obviously, but I have
never before talked openly about my gifted identity. It's considered
'elitist' to acknowledge being highly intelligent." The site itself
appears to be mainly about intergender issues and the giftedness just
came up as a sideline. It appears that I'm the first person to
respond in nearly a year (and I don't "do" blogs).
> In my reply to your other post I mentioned that I also have had a
> problem with this, although I don't consider myself "gifted" and wasn't
> tracked that way; I was/am smart in a regular sort of way.
Yes, that was interesting. It's actually all rather more complicated
than you suggest since for one thing I was brought up by my
grandparents and only saw my mother every couple of weeks... but that
takes us into a whole different area. Email me if you're interested.
> I'm not a psychologist and it's none of my business, but you used the
> terms "depressed" and "manic," and I wondered if you have ever been
> evaluated for bipolar disorder.
Thankfully no, although I'm sure I had a period when I suffered from
it near the end of my PhD. It cleared up of its own accord, I think,
but along with it so did a lot of the imagination and the creativity.
> Feelings of failure can be hard to forget. I hope you are able to move
> on toward a life you're happier with.
Thanks - but this exchange has started to upon up a whole can of
worms. I'm really starting to feel the need to talk to some of "my"
people now, if I can ever find them. It's a huge issue buried under
there.
Guy
Serene
> Stef asked me in another thread about being pushed academically when I
> was very young and I gave a rather flippant answer. It deserves a
> more serious response, I think. It's actually something I normally
> avoid talking about, and there aren't many of those subjects. I
> genuinely feel it's something that it's impossible to understand
> properly unless you've experienced it yourself, and I'm not aware that
> I've met many people like that.
I'm not sure it's impossible to understand meaningfully (many of my
friends and loved ones seem to grasp what I'm talking about well
enough for me), but it's certainly impossible for people to really
get it on a gut level. Then again, I can't really get anyone else's
experience on a gut level, either.
>
> Part of the problem, of course, is that unless you know someone very
> well it's not the sort of information that they're likely to share
> with you.
Right. It took me a day or so of internal struggle to decide whether
or not to post to this thread, because I learned early on that the
kind of reaction I get when I talk about my history in school, etc.,
isn't really a reaction I'm interested in dealing with on a regular
basis. I don't think that will be the case here, but you never know.
> I shared a house once with someone who'd been a musical
> child prodigy, then been sent to study law at university, got into
> drugs and dropped out. We got on very well although we're no longer
> in touch. I've looked around to see if there are support groups for
> such people, either "real-life" or online, and I haven't found any.
> When one sees the amount of information available to parents of
> "gifted" children it's a little surprising to discover the lack of
> support in later life. (There are organizations like Mensa, but
> that's a little different, I think.)
One thing I think when I read this is that a lot of us are
advantaged in a lot of ways, and while some of us were messed up by
skipping grades, heightened parental expectations, etc., I think
most gifted kids have a fair bit of privilege going into the world,
so it may not occur to people to think we need any special help.
> The closest I got was hearing a radio programme about ten years ago
> where five former prodigies in various fields were interviewed in a
> group - they ran the whole gamut of experience, with one still
> extremely successful, one who dropped out and then got back into their
> field again, one who got very depressed and was now in a low-level
> menial job, and so on. It was quite a revelation.
Did you expect them all to be successful, or all to be messed up, or...?
> For me, the experience of being very bright very young was quite
> exhilarating.
Sometimes for me, as well. Also really challenging at times, because
my emotional development was much slower than my intellectual
development. I remember my childhood as being largely serious and
not a little bit sad.
> I was allowed to do all sorts of things that the other
> children weren't - making up my own stories and reading them out to
> the class, having my own maths textbooks, writing music and getting it
> performed, and so on. I felt special and I was absolutely sure that I
> wasn't going to grow up in the same way as the other children.
All the kids in my family are smart, but my brother and I were the
really gifted ones. I'm not sure either of us felt we would be
different from others when we grew up, but I'm pretty sure we both
felt we were better than other people who weren't as smart. Our
parents as much as told us so.
<snip>
> I took a year out but was still only seventeen when I started
> university. I had pretty mediocre results through my entire period
> there and ended up feeling a total failure. I took a job working for
> the government, unconnected with what I'd studied, and after a few
> weeks there started to feel suicidal. It had all been such a waste.
I was fifteen when I started college. I loved it intellectually, and
on some level emotionally, but I really wasn't prepared for it, and
I didn't have the skills or the endurance (see Stef's post about
sticking things out when they're frustrating) to really succeed
there. The coursework was easy. Finding my way in the world with no
real peer group wasn't. It didn't help that I was fat and nerdy and
not at all happy about myself at the time.
>
> Unfortunately, the pendulum swung too far in the other direction and I
> started taking too much on. There was a very nasty incident at the
> end of my first year as a PhD student which I think one or two people
> here know about - I won't go into details but it was a result of
> getting far too manic. I managed to complete the PhD but felt
> thoroughly drained at the end of it and haven't done any serious
> academic work since then. For the last fifteen years or so I'm
> alternated between unemployment and a number of undemanding jobs.
I found happiness being a temporary secretary, to my mother's
chagrin. For twenty-five years, that was my career, and I was happy,
if not challenged in any way. A couple years ago, I decided to
pursue something more challenging and difficult -- running my own
business, doing editing and similar work -- and it's pretty often
that I wonder if it would be best to go back to the easy path.
> So there you have it - it's just one person's experience, of course,
> but as far as I'm concerned being an early achiever is definitely a
> mixed blessing. My attitude now tends to be to accept it as a period
> of my life that's over and try not to let it influence the way I am
> now, but invariably it affects the way I regard myself at times.
I definitely found it to be a mixed blessing, but these days, I
surround myself with people who are, by and large, smarter than I
am, so unless I'm in a discussion like this, I sometimes forget what
it was like to be the youngest and smartest person in the room, and
the person the teacher would ask for the answers.
Serene
Guy Barry
> I'm not sure it's impossible to understand meaningfully (many of my
> friends and loved ones seem to grasp what I'm talking about well
> enough for me), but it's certainly impossible for people to really
> get it on a gut level. Then again, I can't really get anyone else's
> experience on a gut level, either.
Well, sure. I think the important aspect to discussions like this is
that you get to appreciate the significance of certain experiences in
a way that wouldn't normally be apparent. How much of my current
identity comes from having once been a gifted child is something I
haven't really had a chance to explore properly, and relating my
experience to others with similar backgrounds helps me to understand
it better.
> It took me a day or so of internal struggle to decide whether
> or not to post to this thread, because I learned early on that the
> kind of reaction I get when I talk about my history in school, etc.,
> isn't really a reaction I'm interested in dealing with on a regular
> basis.
Yup. My experience this that people don't want to hear about this
sort of thing because they think you're being elitist or showing off
in some way. It's hard to feel any sympathy for someone who's
generally regarded as "privileged".
> I don't think that will be the case here, but you never know.
Hopefully not! I took the risk of making the post because the group's
fairly quiet these days and I don't seem to be getting grilled any
more (though I may have spoken too soon there). But it would be great
to have a dedicated space for discussing such experiences - one can
only really scratch the surface on a group like this.
> One thing I think when I read this is that a lot of us are
> advantaged in a lot of ways, and while some of us were messed up by
> skipping grades, heightened parental expectations, etc., I think
> most gifted kids have a fair bit of privilege going into the world,
> so it may not occur to people to think we need any special help.
I've heard that said many times, and I'm not sure whether it's true or
not. What "privilege" do you think gifted children have when going
into the world that isn't available to other reasonably bright
people? No one's ever said to me "well I'm quite impressed by your
CV, Mr Barry, but the real clincher is that you were able to read at
the age of three".
[radio programme about former gifted children]
> Did you expect them all to be successful, or all to be messed up, or...?
I didn't expect anything. The very fact that the programme was being
broadcast at all was quite remarkable - I've never come across
anything like it before or since. In my experience gifted children
are seen as "phenomena" who pop up at the appropriate age and then
vanish. You'll see items in the media about child prodigies from time
to time, but almost never anything about their progress into
adulthood. Very occasionally an article about a successful person
will mention "so-and-so, a former child prodigy" but that's about it.
And of course if the person isn't successful you're unlikely to hear
about them at all.
> Sometimes for me, as well. Also really challenging at times, because
> my emotional development was much slower than my intellectual
> development.
Same here. I used to throw awful temper tantrums because adults
couldn't understand what I was saying. It took me a long time to
learn to be patient with people (and I'm still not always).
> I remember my childhood as being largely serious and
> not a little bit sad.
That's a shame - what was sad about it? I remember having a lot of
fun when I was a kid.
> All the kids in my family are smart, but my brother and I were the
> really gifted ones.
So there was another one in your family, then? That must have made a
difference - I was an only child and didn't know anyone else like
that. Did you find it valuable to share your experiences with him?
> I'm not sure either of us felt we would be
> different from others when we grew up, but I'm pretty sure we both
> felt we were better than other people who weren't as smart. Our
> parents as much as told us so.
"Better" in what way? Morally better? Socially superior? More
useful to society?
> I was fifteen when I started college.
Wow. Makes me feel really retarded :-)
> I loved it intellectually, and
> on some level emotionally, but I really wasn't prepared for it, and
> I didn't have the skills or the endurance (see Stef's post about
> sticking things out when they're frustrating) to really succeed
> there.
In what way weren't you prepared for it? What skills you do think you
would have needed to succeed?
> The coursework was easy. Finding my way in the world with no
> real peer group wasn't. It didn't help that I was fat and nerdy and
> not at all happy about myself at the time.
I think the thing about not having a real peer group is important. A
couple of years' difference at that age can make all the difference.
I'm sorry that you stood out because of your appearance - I was
extremely small for my age, so I can sympathize in a way. It
certainly didn't make things any easier.
> I found happiness being a temporary secretary, to my mother's
> chagrin.
What was your mother expecting? Was it a deliberate choice of yours,
or did you just fall into it?
> For twenty-five years, that was my career, and I was happy,
> if not challenged in any way. A couple years ago, I decided to
> pursue something more challenging and difficult -- running my own
> business, doing editing and similar work -- and it's pretty often
> that I wonder if it would be best to go back to the easy path.
I can understand that - I'm not sure if I'd want the insecurity of
self-employment, though I can see the advantages. Why did you decide
to switch?
> I definitely found it to be a mixed blessing, but these days, I
> surround myself with people who are, by and large, smarter than I
> am,
That's an interesting observation. How do you know they're smarter
than you are? Is it a conscious decision to do so?
> so unless I'm in a discussion like this, I sometimes forget what
> it was like to be the youngest and smartest person in the room, and
> the person the teacher would ask for the answers.
Yeah, same here. I don't really miss it, but on the other hand I've
suppressed it for a long time and I think it's a bad idea to deny
aspects of one's identity.
Guy
Porkrind
>One thing I think when I read this is that a lot of us are
>advantaged in a lot of ways, and while some of us were messed up by
>skipping grades, heightened parental expectations, etc., I think
>most gifted kids have a fair bit of privilege going into the world,
>so it may not occur to people to think we need any special help.
I suspect there are lots of us in this group, too.
>.... Also really challenging at times, because
>my emotional development was much slower than my intellectual
>development. I remember my childhood as being largely serious and
>not a little bit sad.
I was happy -- but I was pretty closed-minded. I would only listen to
classical music, for instance. I didn't want to hear anything
composed in the last century. My musical education came full circle
in my (late?) 30's, when I expanded my ears and finally got it.
(Turns out, for instance, I adore The Doors. Not that I knew that
when I was overhearing them on the radio. [My older sister insisted
on playing the radio at night. Drove me batshit.])
>All the kids in my family are smart, but my brother and I were the
>really gifted ones. I'm not sure either of us felt we would be
>different from others when we grew up, but I'm pretty sure we both
>felt we were better than other people who weren't as smart. Our
>parents as much as told us so.
I'm not sure how I got out of childhood without that meme. I think my
friend Ellen helped with that. She wasn't clever or intellectual --
she was kind. She was the nicest, sweetest person I knew (and here I
mean 'nice' in a good way). Lightyears ahead of the rest of us in
compassion and emotional understanding.
>I was fifteen when I started college. I loved it intellectually, and
>on some level emotionally, but I really wasn't prepared for it, and
>I didn't have the skills or the endurance (see Stef's post about
>sticking things out when they're frustrating) to really succeed
>there. The coursework was easy. Finding my way in the world with no
>real peer group wasn't. It didn't help that I was fat and nerdy and
>not at all happy about myself at the time.
I was 16. (I started school a year early and skipped the 6th grade --
what for most people is the year that they're 11 or 12.) I *loved*
it. But then I was living at home -- I wasn't ready to go out into
the big world just yet. My next year I spent in Glasgow, on an
exchange program at the university there -- and it was rough. I
didn't take near as much advantage of my opportunities as I might have
when I was older.
>I definitely found it to be a mixed blessing, but these days, I
>surround myself with people who are, by and large, smarter than I
>am, so unless I'm in a discussion like this, I sometimes forget what
>it was like to be the youngest and smartest person in the room, and
>the person the teacher would ask for the answers.
Nice change, isn't it?
--
Piglet
Serene
> Serene <ser...@serenepages.org>, in article <5rjm89F...@mid.individual.net>, dixit:
>> One thing I think when I read this is that a lot of us are
>> advantaged in a lot of ways, and while some of us were messed up by
>> skipping grades, heightened parental expectations, etc., I think
>> most gifted kids have a fair bit of privilege going into the world,
>> so it may not occur to people to think we need any special help.
>
> I suspect there are lots of us in this group, too.
Yeah, that's why I mentioned that I didn't think I'd get the typical
reaction in here.
>> .... Also really challenging at times, because
>> my emotional development was much slower than my intellectual
>> development. I remember my childhood as being largely serious and
>> not a little bit sad.
>
> I was happy -- but I was pretty closed-minded. I would only listen to
> classical music, for instance. I didn't want to hear anything
> composed in the last century. My musical education came full circle
> in my (late?) 30's, when I expanded my ears and finally got it.
That's fascinating. I mostly listened to what my parents listened
to (which is to say, '50s/'60s/'70s folk/rock music, mostly -- Joan
Baez and Harry Belafonte and Kris Kristofferson, stuff like that).
Then again, my parents were among my very few friends when I was a
kid. I got along better with adults, and had very few friends my age.
> (Turns out, for instance, I adore The Doors. Not that I knew that
> when I was overhearing them on the radio. [My older sister insisted
> on playing the radio at night. Drove me batshit.])
Heh. My sister listened to the Carpenters and Tony DiFranco and
Tony Orlando and the Osmonds. I was scarred. Scarred, I tell you. :-)
>> I was fifteen when I started college. I loved it intellectually, and
>> on some level emotionally, but I really wasn't prepared for it, and
>> I didn't have the skills or the endurance (see Stef's post about
>> sticking things out when they're frustrating) to really succeed
>> there. The coursework was easy. Finding my way in the world with no
>> real peer group wasn't. It didn't help that I was fat and nerdy and
>> not at all happy about myself at the time.
>
> I was 16. (I started school a year early and skipped the 6th grade --
> what for most people is the year that they're 11 or 12.) I *loved*
> it. But then I was living at home -- I wasn't ready to go out into
> the big world just yet. My next year I spent in Glasgow, on an
> exchange program at the university there -- and it was rough. I
> didn't take near as much advantage of my opportunities as I might have
> when I was older.
We didn't have the money (and I didn't have the grades) for me to go
away to college. I ended up living at home until I was 23, and I
would probably have been older, but I had a near-death experience
that brought me a steady income for two years, so I moved out.
>> I definitely found it to be a mixed blessing, but these days, I
>> surround myself with people who are, by and large, smarter than I
>> am, so unless I'm in a discussion like this, I sometimes forget what
>> it was like to be the youngest and smartest person in the room, and
>> the person the teacher would ask for the answers.
>
> Nice change, isn't it?
Ayup. It took surrounding myself with fat nerdy smart geeks to
finally feel normal. I'll take it. :-)
Serene
Serene
> On Dec 4, 12:45 am, Serene <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
>> One thing I think when I read this is that a lot of us are
>> advantaged in a lot of ways, and while some of us were messed up by
>> skipping grades, heightened parental expectations, etc., I think
>> most gifted kids have a fair bit of privilege going into the world,
>> so it may not occur to people to think we need any special help.
>
> I've heard that said many times, and I'm not sure whether it's true or
> not. What "privilege" do you think gifted children have when going
> into the world that isn't available to other reasonably bright
> people?
First of all, you're assuming I meant "privilege over other
reasonably bright people". Not everyone is bright, and the bright
people are not the only ones who count. You and I can make our
livings with our minds. My oldest friend, let's call her Sheryl,
can't do that. She's not smart, and she knows it. She cleans hotel
rooms for a living, and tells me how she wishes she were smart like
me so she could use Craigslist (or computers at all) to increase her
earning potential. I have an advantage over people of average or
below-average intelligence, just by dint of being smart.
> No one's ever said to me "well I'm quite impressed by your
> CV, Mr Barry, but the real clincher is that you were able to read at
> the age of three".
I think you misunderstand what privilege is about if you think it's
about people praising you for some aspect of your privilege. What
it's about is not having the kinds of barriers to success that many
(most?) other people have.
> [radio programme about former gifted children]
>> Did you expect them all to be successful, or all to be messed up, or...?
>
> I didn't expect anything.
You said it was a revelation, so I assumed it went contrary to your
expectations.
>> Sometimes for me, as well. Also really challenging at times, because
>> my emotional development was much slower than my intellectual
>> development.
>
> Same here. I used to throw awful temper tantrums because adults
> couldn't understand what I was saying. It took me a long time to
> learn to be patient with people (and I'm still not always).
I was the opposite. I was a sweet, serious, compliant child, and all
the adults loved me. I didn't learn to have my own opinions (and
risk people's anger/upset with me) until my late teens.
>> I remember my childhood as being largely serious and
>> not a little bit sad.
>
> That's a shame - what was sad about it? I remember having a lot of
> fun when I was a kid.
I had a fair bit of fun, too, but I felt disconnected from it all. I
have trouble making close friends, and I had nearly no friends at
all that weren't family members when I was a child. I found other
children to be difficult to relate to, and they found lots to
ridicule about me. Add in the fact that I was a Navy brat, moving
every few months or years, and it was tough to connect. Plus, I'm
introspective by nature, so I spent a lot of my childhood in my room
reading.
>> All the kids in my family are smart, but my brother and I were the
>> really gifted ones.
>
> So there was another one in your family, then? That must have made a
> difference - I was an only child and didn't know anyone else like
> that. Did you find it valuable to share your experiences with him?
It was good to have him. Still is. We understand each other. We
got so close at one point that we could almost read each other's
minds. We were a kick-ass Pictionary team, I'll tell you that.
>> I'm not sure either of us felt we would be
>> different from others when we grew up, but I'm pretty sure we both
>> felt we were better than other people who weren't as smart. Our
>> parents as much as told us so.
>
> "Better" in what way? Morally better? Socially superior? More
> useful to society?
Yes.
>> I found happiness being a temporary secretary, to my mother's
>> chagrin.
>
> What was your mother expecting? Was it a deliberate choice of yours,
> or did you just fall into it?
My mother wanted me to get a degree and become some kind of
professional -- a lawyer, because I was so good at arguing, was her
standard joke.
>> For twenty-five years, that was my career, and I was happy,
>> if not challenged in any way. A couple years ago, I decided to
>> pursue something more challenging and difficult -- running my own
>> business, doing editing and similar work -- and it's pretty often
>> that I wonder if it would be best to go back to the easy path.
>
> I can understand that - I'm not sure if I'd want the insecurity of
> self-employment, though I can see the advantages. Why did you decide
> to switch?
I decided I don't like being away from my home (my very happy,
wonderful home) ten hours a day. James works at home, too, so it's
been just lovely being home with him.
>> I definitely found it to be a mixed blessing, but these days, I
>> surround myself with people who are, by and large, smarter than I
>> am,
>
> That's an interesting observation. How do you know they're smarter
> than you are?
You can't tell when people are smarter than you are?
> Is it a conscious decision to do so?
Not exactly, but I do find myself drawn to really smart people (one
reason I adore Piglet so, certainly), and the circles I travel in
(largely folks I met on Usenet) encourage intelligence and a certain
kind of brainy geekiness, so I suppose we're self-selected for each
other, if that makes sense.
>> so unless I'm in a discussion like this, I sometimes forget what
>> it was like to be the youngest and smartest person in the room, and
>> the person the teacher would ask for the answers.
>
> Yeah, same here. I don't really miss it, but on the other hand I've
> suppressed it for a long time and I think it's a bad idea to deny
> aspects of one's identity.
I think you're probably right, but I also think it can be a mistake
to make something more important than it really is. I try to strike
a balance.
Serene
Guy Barry
> I suspect there are lots of us in this group, too.
Why?
Guy
Porkrind
>On Dec 4, 4:46 pm, pig...@panix.com (Porkrind) wrote:
>> I suspect there are lots of us in this group, too.
>Why?
Because like calls to like.
Because I know many of us.
--
Piglet
Guy Barry
> Guy Barry wrote:
> > I've heard that said many times, and I'm not sure whether it's true or
> > not. What "privilege" do you think gifted children have when going
> > into the world that isn't available to other reasonably bright
> > people?
>
> First of all, you're assuming I meant "privilege over other
> reasonably bright people". Not everyone is bright, and the bright
> people are not the only ones who count.
That's a fair comment.
> You and I can make our livings with our minds.
Well, that may be true for you and me at the moment, but it certainly
hasn't always been true for me. If your mind is firing all over the
place with strange ideas it can be pretty hard to make any sort of
living with it.
> My oldest friend, let's call her Sheryl,
> can't do that. She's not smart, and she knows it. She cleans hotel
> rooms for a living,
I don't see anything wrong with that. If I weren't such a slob I
might well have taken on cleaning jobs to earn a living - they pay
quite well, are usually finished pretty early, and there's a genuine
sense of achievement when you've completed them.
> and tells me how she wishes she were smart like
> me so she could use Craigslist (or computers at all) to increase her
> earning potential.
How can Craigslist increase your earning potential? Maybe it has some
magical powers that I'm not aware of, but to me it looks like a bog-
standard small ads site - you can find similar ads in the local paper
here.
> I have an advantage over people of average or
> below-average intelligence, just by dint of being smart.
Do you think that's true? I could earn a hell of a lot more money
than I do if I worked on a construction site, but I'm not in a
position to do so. I'm not sure if academic intelligence is the great
money-spinner it's made out to be.
> > No one's ever said to me "well I'm quite impressed by your
> > CV, Mr Barry, but the real clincher is that you were able to read at
> > the age of three".
>
> I think you misunderstand what privilege is about if you think it's
> about people praising you for some aspect of your privilege. What
> it's about is not having the kinds of barriers to success that many
> (most?) other people have.
I think you misunderstood the sentiment behind my comment. It wasn't
about praise, but about the ability to earn a living based on one's
experience and abilities. Many people are highly successful in what
they do without having any great academic background.
> > [radio programme about former gifted children]
> You said it was a revelation, so I assumed it went contrary to your
> expectations.
It did, inasmuch as it's not the sort of thing I would have expected
to hear at all.
> > I used to throw awful temper tantrums because adults
> > couldn't understand what I was saying. It took me a long time to
> > learn to be patient with people (and I'm still not always).
>
> I was the opposite. I was a sweet, serious, compliant child, and all
> the adults loved me.
Glad to hear it! I suppose I got frustrated with adults when I took
issue with something they were saying - generally they didn't want to
be corrected by a kid.
> I didn't learn to have my own opinions (and
> risk people's anger/upset with me) until my late teens.
I didn't have a lot of opinions when I was young either - it was more
factual disagreements that upset me, particularly when I *knew* I was
right. Did you ever have problems with those?
> > That's a shame - what was sad about it? I remember having a lot of
> > fun when I was a kid.
>
> I had a fair bit of fun, too, but I felt disconnected from it all. I
> have trouble making close friends, and I had nearly no friends at
> all that weren't family members when I was a child. I found other
> children to be difficult to relate to, and they found lots to
> ridicule about me.
That's a great pity. I don't remember having those sort of problems
when I was little - I used to get called "brainbox" and similar names,
but generally it was good-natured and I had three or four good friends
in my class. What did they ridicule?
> Add in the fact that I was a Navy brat, moving
> every few months or years, and it was tough to connect.
Yeah, that must have been difficult. Moving around a lot when you're
young is probably one of the hardest things.
> Plus, I'm
> introspective by nature, so I spent a lot of my childhood in my room
> reading.
Interesting. I wasn't introspective when young - that only came about
a lot later. I did do a lot of reading, though, but I suppose that's
because I could.
[brother]
> It was good to have him. Still is. We understand each other. We
> got so close at one point that we could almost read each other's
> minds. We were a kick-ass Pictionary team, I'll tell you that.
Excellent. I'm jealous of you!
> > "Better" in what way? Morally better? Socially superior? More
> > useful to society?
>
> Yes.
And I take it you've turned out to be all three? :-)
> My mother wanted me to get a degree and become some kind of
> professional -- a lawyer, because I was so good at arguing, was her
> standard joke.
My mother said that about me as well. I think it's just a standard
thing mothers say about awkward kids...
> I decided I don't like being away from my home (my very happy,
> wonderful home) ten hours a day. James works at home, too, so it's
> been just lovely being home with him.
Delighted to hear it.
> You can't tell when people are smarter than you are?
I don't have an objective definition of "smart". Do you mean quicker
on the uptake, or more articulate, or better at reasoning, or more
highly educated, or what? I try not to put people in that sort of
hierarchy.
> Not exactly, but I do find myself drawn to really smart people (one
> reason I adore Piglet so, certainly), and the circles I travel in
> (largely folks I met on Usenet) encourage intelligence and a certain
> kind of brainy geekiness, so I suppose we're self-selected for each
> other, if that makes sense.
Yeah, sort of. I've never made face-to-face contact with anyone I
know from Usenet, so maybe I don't have that sort of circle of
acquaintances.
> > I don't really miss it, but on the other hand I've
> > suppressed it for a long time and I think it's a bad idea to deny
> > aspects of one's identity.
>
> I think you're probably right, but I also think it can be a mistake
> to make something more important than it really is. I try to strike
> a balance.
So do I, and if the subject hadn't come up here I don't suppose I'd be
thinking about it. Maybe I feel there's something missing from my
life at the moment, and I'm trying to put some flesh to it. It's
certainly an unresolved issue that I feel I need to address.
Guy
Aahz Maruch
Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>How can Craigslist increase your earning potential? Maybe it has some
>magical powers that I'm not aware of, but to me it looks like a bog-
>standard small ads site - you can find similar ads in the local paper
>here.
On one level you're right, but I find Craigslist much easier to use. I
got my current job through a Craigslist ad.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
I believe in pantheistic multi-person solipsism. And so do you.
Stef
Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> I've read articles that
>> discuss how some/many people who are "gifted," to whom most things they
>> try come very easily at first, have problems applying themselves when
>> they finally encounter something that's difficult for them.
>
>Yeah, and I would love to hear more from people with similar
>experiences. After I posted the article I did a Web search to see if
>I could find anything similar, and I came across this:
>
>http://fitofpique.blogspot.com/2007/02/growing-up-gifted-when-i-went-crazy.html
I don't know of any place that's specifically for collecting the
experiences of people formerly labeled gifted children. A lot of stuff
on the Intarwebs seems to be about the experiences of people who think
differently from "the norm." (Piglet is right that the former
soc.singles and ssm are places like that.) There are rather a lot of
blogs of people who are diagnosed or self-diagnosed with Asperger's, for
example, which sometimes is associated with being gifted in something
specific as a child. I don't think I have Asperger's per se but I find
such blogs interesting because a lot of people who identify that way
have an interesting take on the world.
There's also Mensa. I'm not all that impressed with Mensa myself (I've
never joined, but many of the folks I've met who identified themselves
as Mensans had a self-righteous attitude about being smart that I didn't
like...I'm not thinking of anyone I know to be reading this post, mind)
but I've heard that it can help folks who feel alone in the way they
experience the world because they're smarter than most of the other
people in their lives.
>Thanks - but this exchange has started to upon up a whole can of
>worms. I'm really starting to feel the need to talk to some of "my"
>people now, if I can ever find them. It's a huge issue buried under
>there.
I wish you success in finding your people.
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
When you hear hoofbeats, you don't necessarily think of a zebra. --Unknown
Stef
Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>What "privilege" do you think gifted children have when going
>into the world that isn't available to other reasonably bright
>people?
I don't know that gifted children have privileges that other bright
people don't. But they have the privileges of bright people. The main
privilege of being bright, I think, is that you tend to make you more
aware of your choices. At least in the long run.
Serene gave the example of choosing to work as a temp and then choosing
to run her own business. Working as a temp because you choose to,
knowing you have the brain to pursue other options, feels very different
from working as a temp because that's all you feel capable of. Being
smart enough to know that if running your own business doesn't work out,
you can go back to being a temp and that won't somehow take all your
smarts away - that gives you more choices too.
>Same here. I used to throw awful temper tantrums because adults
>couldn't understand what I was saying. It took me a long time to
>learn to be patient with people (and I'm still not always).
Most people take longer than a lifetime to learn patience...
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
If all the world's companies agree simultaneously to lower their ad
budgets...the world would be a better place. I shall be the world's
first ad-treaty negotiator. I will settle for nothing less than a
unilateral advertising reduction! -- Shannon Wheeler, Too Much Coffee
Man
Hobart Floyt
"Serene" <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote in message
news:5rlh37F...@mid.individual.net...
> I think you misunderstand what privilege is about
> if you think it's about people praising you for some
> aspect of your privilege. What it's about is not having
> the kinds of barriers to success that many (most?)
> other people have.
Different people have different barriers. I have siblings
who are "people" persons. They aren't particularly
brilliant academically, but opened doors through
networking, even to the point of employers and such
bending the rules in their favour. They could practically
go into an interview and obtain the job of their choice.
I totally suck at this, and deliberately chose a career
path that should have minimized the "plays well with
others" and office politics nonsense. My parents swear
when they worked, employers were ecstatic with
employees who came to work with job skills and did
the job.
P.S. My campaign to mock a certain show has developed
a snag. Other people who hate Season 3 think my comments
are amusing and are agreeing. It has to be the silly mash-up
drawings.
Guy Barry
> I don't know of any place that's specifically for collecting the
> experiences of people formerly labeled gifted children. A lot of stuff
> on the Intarwebs seems to be about the experiences of people who think
> differently from "the norm." (Piglet is right that the former
> soc.singles and ssm are places like that.)
Really? I thought this group was for people who think in exactly the
same way as the Cabal... but if Piglet says so, she must be right...
> There are rather a lot of
> blogs of people who are diagnosed or self-diagnosed with Asperger's, for
> example, which sometimes is associated with being gifted in something
> specific as a child.
I've never been sure about Asperger's. I'm pretty certain I don't
have it now, but on the other hand when I look at the list of symptoms
it looks quite similar to how I was when I was a kid - although I've
never seen any suggestions that it's possible to grow out of it. I
sometimes wonder whether my mother suffers from it, though - it would
certainly explain some of the huge frustrations I've had trying to
communicate with her.
> I don't think I have Asperger's per se but I find
> such blogs interesting because a lot of people who identify that way
> have an interesting take on the world.
Haven't read a lot of such stuff myself, but yes, it's a fascinating
condition.
> There's also Mensa. I'm not all that impressed with Mensa myself (I've
> never joined, but many of the folks I've met who identified themselves
> as Mensans had a self-righteous attitude about being smart that I didn't
> like...
Indeed, and that's the sort of attitude that's put me off as well. I
no longer regard myself as superior to anyone else and I don't enjoy
the company of other people who do. On the other hand, the fact that
I was treated throughout much of my childhood as though I *was*
superior to other people has had a huge influence of me, and those are
the sorts of issues that I'm interested in exploring.
> I wish you success in finding your people.
Thanks. I seem to have made a remarkably good start here.
Guy
Guy Barry
> I don't know that gifted children have privileges that other bright
> people don't. But they have the privileges of bright people.
In that case, what's the point of giving all that extra attention to
gifted children? Why not just treat them in the same way as other
bright kids?
I don't know about anyone else, but when I was growing up I felt that
something special was going to happen to me *because* I was a gifted
child, and for no other reason. It took me a very long time to work
out that life didn't work like that.
Guy
Stef
Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>I've never been sure about Asperger's. I'm pretty certain I don't
>have it now, but on the other hand when I look at the list of symptoms
>it looks quite similar to how I was when I was a kid - although I've
>never seen any suggestions that it's possible to grow out of it.
I gather some people can learn and manage their way out of some of the
difficulties. Also, I'm sure that a lot of people have stuff going on in
their heads that might have some similarity to Asperger's symptoms but
doesn't fit the classic case, and so on.
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
"I happen to believe I have great talent. Therefore I don't mind
waiting for it to mature." -- Takeo Kajiwara, _The Direction of Play_
[Tokyo: The Ishi Press (1979); translation of _Ishi no Koko_]. Kajiwara
became a professional shodan (1-dan) at the age of fourteen, and in 1965
was promoted to 9-dan.
Aahz Maruch
Hobart Floyt <Alacrity...@WhiteShip.com> wrote:
>
>Different people have different barriers. I have siblings who are
>"people" persons. They aren't particularly brilliant academically, but
>opened doors through networking, even to the point of employers and
>such bending the rules in their favour. They could practically go into
>an interview and obtain the job of their choice.
>
Well, you share that traith with at least one of your siblings. I wonder
how genetics and environment worked in your family.
Stef
Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>On Dec 4, 10:29 pm, s...@panix.com (Stef) wrote:
>
>> I don't know that gifted children have privileges that other bright
>> people don't. But they have the privileges of bright people.
>
>In that case, what's the point of giving all that extra attention to
>gifted children? Why not just treat them in the same way as other
>bright kids?
I don't know. Human fascination with extremes? Belief that it's better
for a gifted kid to be encouraged in their gifts rather than treated
like everyone else? Parents wanting to share in some of the glory of
having "produced" someone with extraordinary abilities, and not
understanding what the long-term consequences might be?
I was just a bright kid and treated as such. I didn't skip classes and
get into college early and so on. I ended up having some of the same
problems that gifted kids sometimes have (problems applying myself) but
possibly not to the same degree. My parents said that I had a high IQ
score and were mysterious enough about it that I vaguely wondered just
how high (but not enough to try to find out). But they didn't tell me
what the score was. And if they acted like I/we were superior to others,
it wasn't about smarts, it was about common sense. The only way they
taught that I was "superior" was in their canonical response to my
complaining that other kids bullied me: They said "They're just
jealous." Since that was unhelpful in dealing with the bullying, I
didn't get a lot of mileage out of the idea that I was superior.
>I don't know about anyone else, but when I was growing up I felt that
>something special was going to happen to me *because* I was a gifted
>child, and for no other reason. It took me a very long time to work
>out that life didn't work like that.
Yeah, that seems problematic. I know there is support these days for
parents with gifted children and issues like that are addressed, but I
don't know how true that was when you were growing up.
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
Maybe this is a stepping stone on the way to the buddhist "detachment".
To know that NRE is everywhere, in everything, and there's no shortage
of it, so that you don't have to "hold on to" something that gives you
NRE, because you can always get it, anywhere, anytime, from anything.
-- Tolovana
Guy Barry
> I would agree that the lack of a any
> organized network of adults who share the experience of having been
> gifted children is unusual. One (this one) wonders if there is some
> attribute to this population that makes such an organization less likely.
Well, indeed. After all, if we're all so brilliant, how come we
haven't worked out some sort of way of communicating with each other
yet? It's hardly as though the technology isn't there these days...
I have several theories, but I think it may be down to the fact
(mentioned before) that many of us are afraid of raising the subject
for fear of being branded "elitist",
plus a reluctance amongst those of us who haven't been successful to
admit to our past at all. And as for those who *have* been
successful, they're probably too busy working towards their next Nobel
prize to get involved :-)
Also, as Stef suggested, if a lot of formerly gifted kids have
Asperger's or other social disorders, they may not find it comfortable
to relate to other people in a similar position.
> For me it was more frustrating than anything else. But I may be a
> special case. The combination of above average intelligence, two mild
> learning disorders and some familial issues put me in a position to have
> rejected education and intellect by the time I was fifteen.
I'm interested that you talk about "above average intelligence" and
"learning disorders" in the same breath. Can you elaborate?
> I only
> attended college because I was incapable of derailing from the route I
> had been locked onto since childhood.
I think that's quite common. Once you've been put on this course, it
takes a massive act of will to come off it. I know I couldn't.
> My mother was a public school teacher. The option of private school was
> anathema in our home.
I think there might be cultural differences here in any case. Is
there any social cachet to private education in your culture?
> I know I absolutely hit a wall once I finally got to a level where
> things were no longer effortless. I had no idea how to study or work. In
> retrospect it is hilarious.
I don't think it's hilarious at all. I know only too well the feeling
of never having to put any work in in order to succeed, then suddenly
realizing there was a load of stuff I couldn't cope with. I know I
felt utterly worthless, and I'm surprised you can dismiss it in such a
way now. How did you cope at the time?
> I've spent far too many years wallowing in mediocrity and
> underemployment. I've been trying to change that over the last year or
> two, surprisingly difficult for a middle aged person who has spent most
> of his life wallowing in mediocrity and underemployment. But with a
> little luck and a lot of work I may yet get there. At least I have the
> family longevity on my side.
Well that's good. What sorts of efforts have you been making?
Guy
Dr. Brat
>
> I'm interested that you talk about "above average intelligence" and
> "learning disorders" in the same breath. Can you elaborate?
Dyslexia is found in people of above average intelligence. The fact
that the child is smart enough to learn to compensate for it often makes
it difficult to diagnose, in fact.
Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Serene
> On Dec 5, 4:01 pm, Diorite <dior...@wowway.com> wrote:
>
>> I would agree that the lack of a any
>> organized network of adults who share the experience of having been
>> gifted children is unusual. One (this one) wonders if there is some
>> attribute to this population that makes such an organization less likely.
>
> Well, indeed. After all, if we're all so brilliant, how come we
> haven't worked out some sort of way of communicating with each other
> yet? It's hardly as though the technology isn't there these days...
>
> I have several theories, but I think it may be down to the fact
> (mentioned before) that many of us are afraid of raising the subject
> for fear of being branded "elitist",
> plus a reluctance amongst those of us who haven't been successful to
> admit to our past at all. And as for those who *have* been
> successful, they're probably too busy working towards their next Nobel
> prize to get involved :-)
And some of us have figured out, as you said in an earlier post,
that nothing special is going to happen to us just because we're
"gifted", so we just have a regular life that doesn't focus on the
fact that we had the good luck to be born really smart.
Serene
Serene
> On Dec 4, 10:29 pm, s...@panix.com (Stef) wrote:
>
>> I don't know that gifted children have privileges that other bright
>> people don't. But they have the privileges of bright people.
>
> In that case, what's the point of giving all that extra attention to
> gifted children? Why not just treat them in the same way as other
> bright kids?
In my case, it was often expedience. The coursework and pacing of
average classes was too slow and limited to keep my interest. In
some cases, I was put on the "gifted" track (it was called "GATE" in
my high school, for Gifted and Talented Education); in other cases,
I was given books of my own. I know for sure that one reason I
skipped the 8th grade was because in my first few weeks in the new
middle school (6th-7th-8th grades) it was clear they didn't have
math books that would cover anything I hadn't learned already in the
really excellent Navy school I attended overseas. So I tested into
the 9th grade with exceptional scores, and began high school at age
almost-12 (it was 5 days before my 12th birthday).
(Skipping 3rd grade was a little more complicated. I spent most of
the 2nd grade in and out of the hospital for some corrective
surgery, and I had a tutor, so I learned a lot more than the 2nd
graders around me, and 4th grade made more sense than 3rd to my mom,
but I'm not sure the option of getting me my own books or something
was ever explored, since we were moving and I was about to start in
the abovementioned excellent school.)
Serene
Guy Barry
On Dec 5, 8:26 pm, s...@panix.com (Stef) wrote:
> In article <255d1a8f-d1d0-4acb-9295-400b4f3a9...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> >In that case, what's the point of giving all that extra attention to
> >gifted children? Why not just treat them in the same way as other
> >bright kids?
>
> I don't know. Human fascination with extremes? Belief that it's better
> for a gifted kid to be encouraged in their gifts rather than treated
> like everyone else? Parents wanting to share in some of the glory of
> having "produced" someone with extraordinary abilities, and not
> understanding what the long-term consequences might be?
I think Serene probably hit the nail on the head when she said that in
her case it was more to do with the expediency of the educational
system, but I'm sure there are a number of reasons as you suggest. In
my case I've a feeling it may have been at least partly down to the
fact that my mother didn't really understand me (or children in
general) and wanted to find someone who could.
> I was just a bright kid and treated as such. I didn't skip classes and
> get into college early and so on. I ended up having some of the same
> problems that gifted kids sometimes have (problems applying myself) but
> possibly not to the same degree. My parents said that I had a high IQ
> score and were mysterious enough about it that I vaguely wondered just
> how high (but not enough to try to find out). But they didn't tell me
> what the score was.
Oh yeah, the old IQ thing. I was told that when they tried to measure
my IQ it went off the scale (seriously). It's actually quite
disconcerting being told something like that as a child - was I really
cleverer than anyone who'd ever gone before me? No wonder I got big-
headed.
Do you know your own IQ, by the way?
> >I don't know about anyone else, but when I was growing up I felt that
> >something special was going to happen to me *because* I was a gifted
> >child, and for no other reason. It took me a very long time to work
> >out that life didn't work like that.
>
> Yeah, that seems problematic. I know there is support these days for
> parents with gifted children and issues like that are addressed, but I
> don't know how true that was when you were growing up.
There's probably more support now than there was then - as I mentioned
before, my mother chose to take me out of the state education system,
and I think it was partly because they couldn't make proper provision
for me.
But I think what I've haven't perhaps conveyed properly is the sense
of inevitability that was instilled in me. I just *was* going to be
an eminent professor or something like that - there was no question
about how it was going to happen. I used to dismiss questions about
"what are you going to do when you grow up?" with scorn; why did I
need to decide? I wasn't going to grow up - I was just going to stay
like this for ever and ever. The everyday adult world as I saw it
bored me, and I certainly didn't want to play a part in it.
Finally, just a quick comment about an earlier post of yours:
> There are rather a lot of
> blogs of people who are diagnosed or self-diagnosed with Asperger's...
I was rather scathing about blogs in an earlier thread, but it's just
struck me that the blog format may be ideal for people with that
condition - it allows them to explore their own experiences without
having necessarily to relate them to anyone else's.
Guy
Guy Barry
> And some of us have figured out, as you said in an earlier post,
> that nothing special is going to happen to us just because we're
> "gifted", so we just have a regular life that doesn't focus on the
> fact that we had the good luck to be born really smart.
If you're happy with the way your life is at the moment, then good for
you. But the fact that you've chosen to respond in this thread
suggests to me that it's an issue that still has some resonance for
you.
Guy
Guy Barry
> Guy Barry wrote:
> > On Dec 4, 10:29 pm, s...@panix.com (Stef) wrote:
>
> >> I don't know that gifted children have privileges that other bright
> >> people don't. But they have the privileges of bright people.
>
> > gifted children? Why not just treat them in the same way as other
> > bright kids?
>
Yes, I think you make a good point there. For some reason
(bureaucratic convenience?), wherever you are in the world and
whatever form of education you go through, it seems to be assumed that
all children of the same age will go through at the same rate - which
when you think about it is remarkable given what we know about the
differences in children's development. (Imagine if the same were true
in the adult world, and everyone was expected to do the same level of
job at, say, 30.)
So when someone comes along who doesn't fit into the pattern, either
because of being slower or quicker than the mainstream, they're
treated as being "special" in some way and given more attention. In
reality, of course, everyone's unique and it'd be wonderful if they
could all have that level of attention. I felt thoroughly lost when I
stopped receiving it.
Guy
Serene
The fact that I've chosen to respond in this thread suggests to me
that there was someone who requested that people share their similar
experiences. I had a similar experience, so I shared it. *shrug*
(I'm very happy with my life, in general. I can live with a cease of
health problems in my family, but other than that, I like who I am
and where I've ended up.)
Serene
Stef
Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Do you know your own IQ, by the way?
No. I have taken a few IQ tests as an adult and scored above average
(well enough to qualify for Mensa, e.g.), but I don't really think there
is such a thing as "an IQ" that is separate from one's score on tests
that may or may not be well designed. And as you've also mentioned, high
IQ doesn't necessarily impart life skills.
>There's probably more support now than there was then - as I mentioned
>before, my mother chose to take me out of the state education system,
>and I think it was partly because they couldn't make proper provision
>for me.
My folks sent me to private schools all my life. The one I went to for
all but two years wasn't different from public schools in terms of the
basic coursework offered, but because they did offer scholarships based
on high test scores, they had some smart kids and maybe a few more
programs designed for smart kids than the public schools had. The school
I went to for the other two years (age 7-9) was something in the nature
of an experimental school. I did poorly because there wasn't enough
external structure.
>But I think what I've haven't perhaps conveyed properly is the sense
>of inevitability that was instilled in me. I just *was* going to be
>an eminent professor or something like that - there was no question
>about how it was going to happen. I used to dismiss questions about
>"what are you going to do when you grow up?" with scorn; why did I
>need to decide? I wasn't going to grow up - I was just going to stay
>like this for ever and ever. The everyday adult world as I saw it
>bored me, and I certainly didn't want to play a part in it.
I can see how that might have happened.
>I was rather scathing about blogs in an earlier thread, but it's just
>struck me that the blog format may be ideal for people with that
>condition - it allows them to explore their own experiences without
>having necessarily to relate them to anyone else's.
Yes, plus some people with Asperger's communicate more easily in written
form than in other forms, so the Internet in general is a good way for
them to communicate. (You don't have to have Asperger's for that to be
true, either.)
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
Every technology really needs to be shipped with a special manual--not
how to use it but why, when and for what. -- Alan Kay
Guy Barry
> Guy Barry wrote:
> > If you're happy with the way your life is at the moment, then good for
> > you. But the fact that you've chosen to respond in this thread
> > suggests to me that it's an issue that still has some resonance for
> > you.
>
> The fact that I've chosen to respond in this thread suggests to me
> that there was someone who requested that people share their similar
> experiences. I had a similar experience, so I shared it. *shrug*
And thanks for doing so - it's been invaluable. At the beginning of
the thread, you said you'd struggled to decide whether to respond
because of the reaction you'd previously had in similar
circumstances. If you're already shrugging it off, something's
clearly changed!
If there were a space dedicated to the experiences of those with a
similar background, do you think you'd be likely to take part? It's
been an eye-opener for me already but I'm conscious that discussing it
on a group like this is probably excluding the majority of people.
> (I'm very happy with my life, in general. I can live with a cease of
> health problems in my family, but other than that, I like who I am
> and where I've ended up.)
I'm very pleased to hear it. My intention wasn't so much to have a
long analysis of "where did it all go wrong" as to look at the types
of issues that connect us and which maybe aren't apparent to the rest
of the population.
Guy
Guy Barry
> In article <c0106d0c-6576-48b6-8f72-13619bc8b...@w34g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Guy Barry <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Do you know your own IQ, by the way?
>
> No. I have taken a few IQ tests as an adult and scored above average
> (well enough to qualify for Mensa, e.g.), but I don't really think there
> is such a thing as "an IQ" that is separate from one's score on tests
> that may or may not be well designed. And as you've also mentioned, high
> IQ doesn't necessarily impart life skills.
I would tend to agree with you on both counts, which makes me wonder
why there's this obsession about measuring it (although it may have
tailed off in the last couple of decades). Certainly there are many
types of intelligence that aren't measured by IQ tests, including
practical and interpersonal.
> >The everyday adult world as I saw it
> >bored me, and I certainly didn't want to play a part in it.
>
> I can see how that might have happened.
I still don't! :-)
> >I was rather scathing about blogs in an earlier thread, but it's just
> >struck me that the blog format may be ideal for people with that
> >condition - it allows them to explore their own experiences without
> >having necessarily to relate them to anyone else's.
>
> Yes, plus some people with Asperger's communicate more easily in written
> form than in other forms, so the Internet in general is a good way for
> them to communicate. (You don't have to have Asperger's for that to be
> true, either.)
Certainly I find it easier to deal with issues like this in writing,
although I'm quite articulate generally and enjoy talking to people.
I find the interactive aspect invaluable, though, which is why I
regard the blog format as somewhat lacking - as has been mentioned
elsewhere, discussions of this depth rarely appear to be generated by
blogs (unless I'm missing out somewhere).
Guy
eab...@wisc.edu
>>>>Have any of you read Hothouse Kids by Alissa Quart? This book
> discusses in depth the way that some parents are intent on "creating"
> a baby genius, as well as the effects that being labeled gifted as a
> child can have on a "normal" adult. I'd be curious to hear whether you
> think that pushing our kids to become child prodigies will only end up
> in some sort of failure for them in their adult lives? I think this
> seems like a problem with which both parents and teachers struggle.
Serene
> On Dec 6, 7:55 am, Serene <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
>> Guy Barry wrote:
>
>>> If you're happy with the way your life is at the moment, then good for
>>> you. But the fact that you've chosen to respond in this thread
>>> suggests to me that it's an issue that still has some resonance for
>>> you.
>> The fact that I've chosen to respond in this thread suggests to me
>> that there was someone who requested that people share their similar
>> experiences. I had a similar experience, so I shared it. *shrug*
>
> And thanks for doing so - it's been invaluable. At the beginning of
> the thread, you said you'd struggled to decide whether to respond
> because of the reaction you'd previously had in similar
> circumstances. If you're already shrugging it off, something's
> clearly changed!
You misunderstood me. I didn't know if I felt like having the
conversation that might include the kinds of reactions I often get,
mostly because that kind of conversation tends to make me either
bored or uncomfortably in the spotlight. That doesn't mean I harbor
any long-standing trauma over things, or that I attach any special
emotional significance to those conversations, or to this one, for
that matter.
> If there were a space dedicated to the experiences of those with a
> similar background, do you think you'd be likely to take part?
Almost certainly not. As I've said, I'm not uncommon among my peer
group these days. So I guess you could say I already have that
space in a way, except it isn't a space that was set up
purposefully, nor does it have any kinds of membership requirements.
We just talk sometimes, my friends and I, about what it was like
to grow up the way we did.
(Case in point: The stuff you've read from me and Piglet? We've
talked about that with each other in person -- on car trips, while
sipping tea in my living room -- but we never sat down and said,
"Hey, let's covene a meeting of People Like Us so we can talk about
this.")
Serene
Guy Barry
> Have any of you read Hothouse Kids by Alissa Quart? This book
> discusses in depth the way that some parents are intent on "creating"
> a baby genius, as well as the effects that being labeled gifted as a
> child can have on a "normal" adult.
I had heard of the book, but never read it. I've just had a quick
look at the extracts and reviews on Alissa Quart's site and it's
frightening - the problems of being born a gifted child are bad enough
in my view, and the idea that parents would actually want to *create*
one is absolutely terrifying. (And significant that the author was
one herself, I think.)
> I'd be curious to hear whether you
> think that pushing our kids to become child prodigies will only end up
> in some sort of failure for them in their adult lives? I think this
> seems like a problem with which both parents and teachers struggle.
Clearly it's not inevitable, because some gifted children grow up to
have fulfilling lives. However, according to one of the reviews,
"unfortunately, as Quart discovers, for every well-adjusted child-math
ace who sails smoothly into life as a financial service wiz, there are
two prodigies whose adult lives never live up to their fantasies". I
don't know how well this finding is borne out by research and would be
interested to find out.
Guy
Guy Barry
> You misunderstood me.
My apologies.
> I didn't know if I felt like having the
> conversation that might include the kinds of reactions I often get,
> mostly because that kind of conversation tends to make me either
> bored or uncomfortably in the spotlight.
Yes, I can understand that.
> That doesn't mean I harbor
> any long-standing trauma over things, or that I attach any special
> emotional significance to those conversations, or to this one, for
> that matter.
That's good. I don't specially do so myself - it's just a novelty
having this sort of conversation at all. That said, there *are* some
traumatic issues connected with my experience which I haven't really
touched on here, which I feel I could probably discuss more profitably
in an environment that was sympathetic to such people.
> > If there were a space dedicated to the experiences of those with a
> > similar background, do you think you'd be likely to take part?
>
> Almost certainly not. As I've said, I'm not uncommon among my peer
> group these days. So I guess you could say I already have that
> space in a way, except it isn't a space that was set up
> purposefully, nor does it have any kinds of membership requirements.
> We just talk sometimes, my friends and I, about what it was like
> to grow up the way we did.
I would much have preferred it if such a space had arisen
spontaneously in my life, but for whatever reason it hasn't, and I'm
guessing that may be true for a lot of others from similar
backgrounds. It's quite fortunate that you find yourself in such a
position now, I think.
> (Case in point: The stuff you've read from me and Piglet? We've
> talked about that with each other in person -- on car trips, while
> sipping tea in my living room -- but we never sat down and said,
> "Hey, let's covene a meeting of People Like Us so we can talk about
> this.")
Well, you don't necessary need to convene a meeting - the internet is
a fantastic place for exchanging such experiences, I'm sure you'll
agree. After all, there are forums for just about every special
interest group these days, so why not this one? (Maybe there already
is and I haven't looked hard enough, of course.)
It's interesting that you mention that this has come up in private
face-to-face conversation, though. I wonder if it's the sort of issue
that some people are more comfortable discussing privately than in
public.
Guy
Guy Barry
> In article
> <54c0ee0b-d315-4468-8389-9f1afd159...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> Guy Barry <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > Well, indeed. After all, if we're all so brilliant, how come we
> > haven't worked out some sort of way of communicating with each other
> > yet?
> In my case it may be that I am too busy living my adult life to commit
> to an exhaustive examination of long passed days.
That's fair enough. I'd guess that all of us here are of a roughly
similar age and probably haven't been in formal education for about
fifteen to twenty years. That said, it's actually quite a shock to
realize that the period of my life I've spent in formal education
(nineteen years my by reckoning) is almost as long as the period I've
spent outside it - indeed if I ignore the pre-school years I've been
in education for *longer* than I've been outside it. When I think
about it that way it's not surprising that it still has such an
influence.
> > I'm interested that you talk about "above average intelligence" and
> > "learning disorders" in the same breath. Can you elaborate?
>
> I could. But I'm frequently inclined to be a little circumspect on a
> public, archived forum.
Don't worry, no one takes any notice of Usenet any more :-)
(Incidentally I note that you choose not to archive your posts,
although of course other people may decide to quote them.)
> > I think that's quite common. Once you've been put on this course, it
> > takes a massive act of will to come off it. I know I couldn't.
>
> Especially when you are facing tremendous familial pressure to achieve
> your goals (as defined by them).
Families can put all sorts of strange pressures on children which I
don't fully understand. I mentioned my former housemate earlier on
who was a prodigy on the violin early on and then told that he had to
go and study law - why?
I sometimes wonder where educators get these ideas about "goals"
from. To me they can seem almost arbitrary. A substantial theme in
my education seemed to be about discovering I was good at something
and then being told I had to give it up in order to progress to the
next stage - I gave up musical composition because my teacher wanted
me to concentrate on practical music (which I wasn't so good at), gave
up creative writing because there wasn't a space for it in the
curriculum past a certain age, eventually gave up foreign languages
because I couldn't combine them with a maths degree, and finally gave
the whole lot up when I started work and realized that none of it had
been any use anyway.
> > I don't think it's hilarious at all. I know only too well the feeling
> > of never having to put any work in in order to succeed, then suddenly
> > realizing there was a load of stuff I couldn't cope with. I know I
> > felt utterly worthless, and I'm surprised you can dismiss it in such a
> > way now. How did you cope at the time?
>
> Shock, panic and intoxication. Followed by depression and paralysis. But
> knowing what I know now, and with some distance, I can find the humor in
> my supposed superman being destroyed by the kryptonite of hard work that
> was familiar and harmless to everyone else.
I'm glad that you can do that - I'm not sure if I'd be able to. I can
laugh at myself easily now but I still remember that period of my life
with a certain amount of distress, though I try not to dwell on it.
> In any case I choose to be
> entertained by life. If that requires me to set the bar low as to what
> is amusing, so be it.
That's good.
> > What sorts of efforts have you been making?
>
> Classes, looking for a job with growth opportunities.
Good luck. I can say that I've made a modest start in my new job,
which I've had for just over a month now - it's been part-time so far
but I'm meeting the head of the company (which employs 20 people) next
week to discuss taking on extra responsibilities and expanding my
hours.
Guy
Paul Wallich
Something special did. Just not something special in a good way...
I think that's one of the reasons, by the way, that organizations of
adults who were gifted children are thin on the ground. I look at my
gifted classmates from college, and they're department chairs at
universities or editors of large newspapers/magazines or general counsel
of some large organization ... or they're the ones who "didn't live up
to their potential". The former don't need such an organization, the
latter might form one, but on a large scale it would probably be even
less fun than mensa.
So you get pockets of similarly-twisted individuals washing up in odd
corners (as here) but almost by definition nothing all-embracing.
paul
Paul Wallich
> In article <255d1a8f-d1d0-4acb...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Dec 4, 10:29 pm, s...@panix.com (Stef) wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know that gifted children have privileges that other bright
>>> people don't. But they have the privileges of bright people.
>> In that case, what's the point of giving all that extra attention to
>> gifted children? Why not just treat them in the same way as other
>> bright kids?
>
> I don't know. Human fascination with extremes? Belief that it's better
> for a gifted kid to be encouraged in their gifts rather than treated
> like everyone else? Parents wanting to share in some of the glory of
> having "produced" someone with extraordinary abilities, and not
> understanding what the long-term consequences might be?
I think there's also a certain amount of trying to channel gifts into
socially acceptable paths. I don't mean that in a necessarily negative
way -- for example, there was a kid in my cub scout troop who was
whip-smart, but also a serious discipline problem and clearly on his way
to juvenile delinquency. He went to a lousy urban public school, so the
coursework he was getting was about two years behind what he was capable
of handling. Some of the discipline issues came from a rotten home life
(you get to learn these kinds of things about other cub scouts), but a
lot of it came from being pretty much bored out of his mind except when
he could find some trouble to make.
Some kind of program for gifted children might have done a nice job
soaking up his extra brainpower.
paul
Guy Barry
> I think that's one of the reasons, by the way, that organizations of
> adults who were gifted children are thin on the ground. I look at my
> gifted classmates from college, and they're department chairs at
> universities or editors of large newspapers/magazines or general counsel
> of some large organization ... or they're the ones who "didn't live up
> to their potential".
I sort of made that point earlier on... but yes, you're right. I got
sick of adults going on and on about my "potential" when I was a kid,
when I didn't really know what "potential" meant in that context. I
was really happy as I was *then*, so why did I need any "potential"?
> The former don't need such an organization, the
> latter might form one, but on a large scale it would probably be even
> less fun than mensa.
I disagree. I think it could be wonderfully subversive.
Guy
Stef
Paul Wallich <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>Stef wrote:
>> In article <255d1a8f-d1d0-4acb...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>> Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Dec 4, 10:29 pm, s...@panix.com (Stef) wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't know that gifted children have privileges that other bright
>>>> people don't. But they have the privileges of bright people.
>>> In that case, what's the point of giving all that extra attention to
>>> gifted children? Why not just treat them in the same way as other
>>> bright kids?
>>
>> I don't know. Human fascination with extremes? Belief that it's better
>> for a gifted kid to be encouraged in their gifts rather than treated
>> like everyone else? Parents wanting to share in some of the glory of
>> having "produced" someone with extraordinary abilities, and not
>> understanding what the long-term consequences might be?
>
>I think there's also a certain amount of trying to channel gifts into
>socially acceptable paths.
I think "point them at something to do that is interesting and
challenging" applies to all bright kids, though, not just gifted ones.
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
America's not about liking each other. Our history doesn't have much of
that. America is about TOLERATING each other.... It's easier to do. And
it's black and white. You either do it or you don't. Loving each other
is something you can LIE ABOUT. -- Joe Bob Briggs
Guy Barry
> I think there's also a certain amount of trying to channel gifts into
> socially acceptable paths.
That's a good point. I wonder how many people there are around who
would have benefited from being treated as "gifted" when they
weren't. I can think of one friend of mine who's extremely bright and
shares a lot of interests with me, but who went through school
thinking he was incredibly stupid, partly because he was dyslexic but
also because he went to a pretty bad school which didn't make
provision for such people. He's in his late twenties now, is studying
"A" level mathematics (normally taken at eighteen in this country),
and is hoping to go to university as a mature student. Good for him,
I say.
Guy
eab...@wisc.edu
>
> I sometimes wonder where educators get these ideas about "goals"
> from. To me they can seem almost arbitrary. A substantial theme in
> my education seemed to be about discovering I was good at something
> and then being told I had to give it up in order to progress to the
> next stage - I gave up musical composition because my teacher wanted
> me to concentrate on practical music (which I wasn't so good at), gave
> up creative writing because there wasn't a space for it in the
> curriculum past a certain age, eventually gave up foreign languages
> because I couldn't combine them with a maths degree, and finally gave
> the whole lot up when I started work and realized that none of it had
> been any use anyway.
>
>>>I am not sure that I agree or think it is completely fair to blame your teachers for the curriculum that they employed. Often times, especially in today's schools, teachers are not given the choice to decide when they can stop teaching creative writing or how to exactly implement the curricular needs of each student. This is obviously a problem, though, and perhaps a next step would be to look not only at the schools and their curriculums, but also school district and governmental mandates. What kind of options do you think teachers should have in terms of manipulating the curriculum mandated to fit the needs of individual learners?
Guy Barry
> I am not sure that I agree or think it is completely fair to blame your teachers
> for the curriculum that they employed.
Indeed, which is why I used the term "educators" rather than
"teachers" - I regard it as a problem of the educational establishment
rather than any individual or institution.
I've got quite strong views on this but I have to rush off to work now
- more later.
Guy
Porkrind
>And some of us have figured out, as you said in an earlier post,
>that nothing special is going to happen to us just because we're
>"gifted", so we just have a regular life that doesn't focus on the
>fact that we had the good luck to be born really smart.
And are slowly, step by step, learning that living a regular life *is*
special.
--
Piglet
Porkrind
>On Dec 7, 7:28 pm, Diorite <dior...@wowway.com> wrote:
>> In my case it may be that I am too busy living my adult life to commit
>> to an exhaustive examination of long passed days.
>That's fair enough. I'd guess that all of us here are of a roughly
>similar age and probably haven't been in formal education for about
>fifteen to twenty years. That said, it's actually quite a shock to
>realize that the period of my life I've spent in formal education
>(nineteen years my by reckoning) is almost as long as the period I've
>spent outside it - indeed if I ignore the pre-school years I've been
>in education for *longer* than I've been outside it. When I think
>about it that way it's not surprising that it still has such an
>influence.
17 years in school, for me. (Including kindergarten.) 21 (going on
22) years post school.
But I don't think it's just about temporal distance. I had emotional
distance from my schooling for sure by 5 years after I got out. (And
presumably some time before that -- that's just when I remember
noticing.)
Transitioning from school to the workplace was terrifying. I had a
series of narrative dreams all through the month before I left
graduate school, set in a fictional, familiar future world. (I never
remember my dreams, I never dream in series, and I never dream in
fictional settings, so this was big.)
But I wholly made the leap. What mattered in my work world wasn't
grades or expectations or old teacher's assessments -- what mattered
was my peers and my bosses -- my evaluations and my raises, and the
work I produced.
My crash came later -- when my thyroid, which had been in overdrive
for some time (undiagnosed), started fogging my brain. And I just
couldn't think straight anymore. And I couldn't perform. And my work
suffered. And I didn't know what the hell was going on.
--
Piglet
Stef
>Transitioning from school to the workplace was terrifying. I had a
>series of narrative dreams all through the month before I left
>graduate school, set in a fictional, familiar future world. (I never
>remember my dreams, I never dream in series, and I never dream in
>fictional settings, so this was big.)
Heh. I had a bunch of particularly vivid dreams when I was getting ready
to leave the academic womb, too. At least one of them would have made a
good Heroes episode. (No spoilers! I'm only on season 1.)
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
It's like looking for a camel in a haystack.
--Mixed metaphor hall of fame
Dr. Brat
> My crash came later -- when my thyroid, which had been in overdrive
> for some time (undiagnosed), started fogging my brain. And I just
> couldn't think straight anymore. And I couldn't perform. And my work
> suffered. And I didn't know what the hell was going on.
Sleep apnea. KABOOOOOOM!
Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Guy Barry
> Serene <ser...@serenepages.org>, in article <5roud6F163lp...@mid.individual.net>, dixit:
>
> >And some of us have figured out, as you said in an earlier post,
> >that nothing special is going to happen to us just because we're
> >"gifted", so we just have a regular life that doesn't focus on the
> >fact that we had the good luck to be born really smart.
>
> And are slowly, step by step, learning that living a regular life *is*
> special.
Well, for you maybe...
Guy
Guy Barry
> 17 years in school, for me. (Including kindergarten.) 21 (going on
> 22) years post school.
The truly frightening thing is that it's about fifteen years since I
first read one of your posts and I'm still terrified of you...
> But I don't think it's just about temporal distance. I had emotional
> distance from my schooling for sure by 5 years after I got out. (And
> presumably some time before that -- that's just when I remember
> noticing.)
Not quite the same for me. I had twelve years in school, then a year
out (pretty much enforced), then three years at university, then a
supposed "career" job for a year, then went flying back to the arms of
academia when I couldn't cope. The emotional distance came when I
gave the whole lot up and decided there wasn't a great deal of point
in either as long as I had money in the bank (which I no longer have,
alas).
> Transitioning from school to the workplace was terrifying.
Oh God yes. I might as well have been picked up and dropped onto
another planet when I left university - there was no relation
whatsoever between the two lifestyles. I still don't know how most
people manage it.
> I had a
> series of narrative dreams all through the month before I left
> graduate school, set in a fictional, familiar future world. (I never
> remember my dreams, I never dream in series, and I never dream in
> fictional settings, so this was big.)
Wow. I don't think I ever dreamt about the future in that way.
> But I wholly made the leap. What mattered in my work world wasn't
> grades or expectations or old teacher's assessments -- what mattered
> was my peers and my bosses -- my evaluations and my raises, and the
> work I produced.
What were you doing? I never produced anything worthwhile in my first
job after leaving university, but then I couldn't see the point of it.
> My crash came later -- when my thyroid, which had been in overdrive
> for some time (undiagnosed), started fogging my brain. And I just
> couldn't think straight anymore. And I couldn't perform. And my work
> suffered. And I didn't know what the hell was going on.
To be continued... :-)
What are the symptoms of an overactive thyroid?
Guy
Guy Barry
> What kind of options do you think teachers should have in terms of
> manipulating the curriculum mandated to fit the needs of individual learners?
I promised some comments on this earlier on, but it's such a big
subject I'm not sure if I can do it justice at the moment. Personally
I would love to see a system whereby the talents of individual
children were encouraged and nurtured, rather than manipulated to fit
the needs of a largely self-serving educational establishment.
Here in the UK (and I guess where you are as well), education has
become such a political issue that the needs of the learners appear to
be at the bottom of the agenda. Teachers have one idea about the
purposes of education, parents have another, employers have another,
politicians have another... it's only the children who never seem to
get asked.
I have thought very hard about the purposes of education throughout
the fifteen or so years since I left it, and have come to the
conclusion that no one has a clue. It's just a big institution with
massive backing from the state and from society in general, and no one
really knows what it's there for. Everyone seems to agree that it's a
good thing, and the more you have of it the better, but I remain to be
convinced of the tangible benefits, beyond the teaching of basic
literacy and numeracy (which is often inadequate anyway).
Take one example. Our last Prime Minister, Tony Blair, made
"education, education, education" one of his mantras and boasted "I
would never have had the opportunities I've received without the
chance to attend university" (or words to that effect). Strangely
enough, his precedessor as Prime Minister, John Major, didn't attend
university at all and left school with a very modest set of
qualifications. No one ever pointed this out - not even his political
opponents.
Guy
Vill...@webtv.net
What once was..... or what might be?
UW
Vill...@webtv.net
[will not] advance.
I submit for your consideration: The past is past. Let it go. Use your
gift to free yourself from it.
Need I expand the concept?
Try this-
This is that of which I speak; I was beaten bloody as a child for
failing to meet academic expectations given the I.Q test scores. also
off the charts. I had bones broken from 'falls'. My drawings and
scuptures were dismissed as 'useless'.
I was smart enough to know beter. So I fought back. I did just enough in
school to gain a 'pass' to the next level of institutional medoricrity
in both private and public mind prisons.
But oh! I crafted a clay bust of a tortured soul in 'art class' which
astonished. 'Nevermind. Never make a 'living' doing that!'
I snorked in their know it all general direction.
Later; having been pushed to become 'someone of note'.... I chose the
law to study. In my second year at 'university'
- i was conscripted into the war machine and became a soldier.- It was
either that or prison- I was a good soldier. smart and quick. I was god.
I killed and was proud of it. The law of the jungle dontcha know. I was
courts martialed twice. I was not convicted. Guess why? Because there is
the law civialian..... and then there is the law militant... and then
there is the other law. The real one. Live or die. Justice is an
abstraction. When I came home and went back to 'school' ... I couldnt
stop laughing. I took up me true calling. art.
I love it. It feeds my soul. And thats what is important to me. It's not
the big house or the big job or the rest of that 'other' brain shite.
I'm poor.. and I'm rich... And why?
Because I stopped hating myself for failing in other peoples
expectations of what I 'should' make myself 'into'......pick yer
poison...... or don't.
It really is your choise.
shoulda woulda coulda..... crap.
But hey! Don't be too surprized if you won't get a whole lot of takers
to join in your proposed 'mutual self-flageration society' on the WWW.
because we was abused as smart young people and lets wallow in it until
we die.
Grow up Guy. It's done and over.
Pick a bright horizon and set out.
Do.
UW
Guy Barry
> You seem, Guy, to have a death grip on your past beyond which you cannot
> [will not] advance.
What makes you say that? I've just been offered full-time hours in my
new job, so I'm pretty pleased about it, and I've just been thinking
about how I'm going to fit the extra work around the rest of my
commitments.
I don't see anything wrong with swapping stories from the past if it
helps me to understand myself and other people a little better.
Guy
Guy Barry
> But hey! Don't be too surprized if you won't get a whole lot of takers
> to join in your proposed 'mutual self-flageration society' on the WWW.
Your words, not mine (and it's "flagellation", incidentally). I'm not
remotely interested in flagellating myself, or anyone else for that
matter.
Do you know that when we originally developed SABRE, many of the
participants (including myself) hadn't been interested in the subject-
matter since we were children and had repressed it because we'd
thought that there was something "weird" about an interest in roads?
The standard joke in those days was "I thought I was the only one" -
now we've got 1500 members and have recently passed our 300,000th
post, as well as having developed a huge resource of information that
is often more comprehensive than the Government's. All in six years.
Makes you think, doesn't it?
Guy
Lynn
> You seem, Guy, to have a death grip on your past beyond which you cannot
> [will not] advance.
> I submit for your consideration: The past is past. Let it go. Use your
> gift to free yourself from it.
[snip]
> shoulda woulda coulda..... crap.
[snip]
> Grow up Guy. It's done and over.
>
> Pick a bright horizon and set out.
ya rilly.
Seth
>I think "point them at something to do that is interesting and
>challenging" applies to all bright kids, though, not just gifted ones.
I think it applies to all kids, you just have to scale "interesting
and challenging" correctly.
Seth
Guy Barry
> In article <fjjt7f$66...@reader1.panix.com>, s...@panix.com (Stef)
> wrote:
> > Heh. I had a bunch of particularly vivid dreams when I was getting ready
> > to leave the academic womb, too. At least one of them would have made a
> > good Heroes episode. (No spoilers! I'm only on season 1.)
You know, if there's one thing I really miss from those early years,
it's the really vivid dreams and the opportunity to share them with
other kids. I got into lucid dreaming in a big way, too. All gone
now.
> I had my worst, most vivid, and most memorable dream during a period in
> my college years where I was deciding who and what I wanted to be as a
> person.
Just intrigued by your choice of language here - "...as a person"?
Did you not regard yourself as a "person" when you were a kid? I
certainly did.
> There were multiple instances of me, with minor differences.
> (clothing, facial hair, trivial stuff like that. They did not get along
> very well. In fact, one of them put a long sharp pointy knife though
> another's eye to the back of his skull, killing him instantly. I found
> it both disturbing and a relief.
Wow.
> Let the armchair analysis begin.
How did you know they were all you, for a start?
Guy
Guy Barry
> On Dec 11, 12:29 am, VilleB...@webtv.net wrote:
> > Grow up Guy. It's done and over.
No it isn't. As far as I'm concerned, being a gifted kid was *better*
than being an adult. Miles better. It's got nothing to do with
aspirations or what anyone thought I would become, it's to do with how
I was *then*. It's a state of being, feeling that you're leading a
charmed existence.
And I actually got it back once within my adult life, for a year or so
in my early twenties, and I prayed that it would never go away again.
But it's really hard to sustain within the adult world and I lost it
in a quite distressing fashion.
If I go on in this vein you're going to start thinking that I'm a
nutcase, and understandably so. That's why I need to speak to my own
kind about it.
Guy
Dr. Brat
> If I go on in this vein you're going to start thinking that I'm a
> nutcase, and understandably so. That's why I need to speak to my own
> kind about it.
What makes you think that there is a single person on this forum who
wasn't gifted or above average as a child?
Lynn
> > On Dec 11, 12:29 am, VilleB...@webtv.net wrote:
> > > Grow up Guy. It's done and over.
> No it isn't. As far as I'm concerned, being a gifted kid was *better*
> than being an adult...It's a state of being, feeling that you're leading a
> charmed existence.
> If I go on in this vein you're going to start thinking that I'm a
> nutcase, and understandably so. That's why I need to speak to my own
> kind about it.
Truly wealthy people don't talk about how rich they are. They don't
have to.
-Lynn
Penelope Periwinkle
Oh, hogwash. There are buttloads of insecure wealthy people who either
talk about their money or flash their expensive toys about to make
sure everyone knows they're wealthy. Even old money breeds insecurity
sometimes.
You know, Guy seems to feel that a good part of his adult life has
been shaped by his childhood experiences as a "gifted" child. There
was a time when teasing that sort of thing apart and helping folks
come to terms with those sort of experiences was bread and butter on
ssm.
Penelope
--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn" <eli...@everybodycansing.com>
Aahz Maruch
Penelope Periwinkle <pperi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>You know, Guy seems to feel that a good part of his adult life has
>been shaped by his childhood experiences as a "gifted" child. There
>was a time when teasing that sort of thing apart and helping folks
>come to terms with those sort of experiences was bread and butter on
>ssm.
Nice fantasy -- what timeline did you come from again?
Not that you're entirely wrong, but every single one of those threads
that I recall included plenty of snarky comments, if not outright
flames, and few people being "helped" found it a comfortable experience.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
pornographic corrections: erratica
Lynn
wrote:
> On 13 Dec 2007 09:39:40 -0500, Lynn <lynn_ma...@lycos.com> wrote:
>
> >On Dec 12, 12:59 pm, Guy Barry <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >> > On Dec 11, 12:29 am, VilleB...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> >> > > Grow up Guy. It's done and over.
>
> >> No it isn't. As far as I'm concerned, being a gifted kid was *better*
> >> than being an adult...It's a state of being, feeling that you're leading a
> >> charmed existence.
>
> >> If I go on in this vein you're going to start thinking that I'm a
> >> nutcase, and understandably so. That's why I need to speak to my own
> >> kind about it.
>
> >Truly wealthy people don't talk about how rich they are. They don't
> >have to.
>
> Oh, hogwash. There are buttloads of insecure wealthy people who either
> talk about their money or flash their expensive toys about to make
> sure everyone knows they're wealthy. Even old money breeds insecurity
> sometimes.
That makes my point slightly pointier. It is gauche to do so; and, as
you mention, such behavior is about insecurity not the wealth.
> You know, Guy seems to feel that a good part of his adult life has
> been shaped by his childhood experiences as a "gifted" child.
(which we lowly ssm'ers couldn't possibly comprehend)
> There
> was a time when teasing that sort of thing apart and helping folks
> come to terms with those sort of experiences was bread and butter on
> ssm.
as entertainment. usually not to really help, especially when help
isn't
requested/welcome.
IME
-Lynn
Dr. Brat
> On 13 Dec 2007 09:39:40 -0500, Lynn <lynn_...@lycos.com> wrote:
>>Truly wealthy people don't talk about how rich they are. They don't
>>have to.
>
>
> Oh, hogwash. There are buttloads of insecure wealthy people who either
> talk about their money or flash their expensive toys about to make
> sure everyone knows they're wealthy. Even old money breeds insecurity
> sometimes.
I would argue that if you're insecure, you're not truly wealthy. Wealth
is about having enough, IMO.
Penelope Periwinkle
>In article <tvk2m31uh9hec65fu...@4ax.com>,
>Penelope Periwinkle <pperi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>You know, Guy seems to feel that a good part of his adult life has
>>been shaped by his childhood experiences as a "gifted" child. There
>>was a time when teasing that sort of thing apart and helping folks
>>come to terms with those sort of experiences was bread and butter on
>>ssm.
>
>Nice fantasy -- what timeline did you come from again?
>
>Not that you're entirely wrong, but every single one of those threads
>that I recall included plenty of snarky comments, if not outright
>flames, and few people being "helped" found it a comfortable experience.
Funny how that little observation gets deep sixed whenever one of the
Great Complainers whines about "good old days" when snigglers were
genderless and snarks were something you hunted along with boogums.
However, the discussions still went on, and some people, from their
burbley comments, appeared to find them helpful despite the heaving of
rocks and turds from the peanut gallery.
Aahz Maruch
Dr. Brat <epc...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Penelope Periwinkle wrote:
>> On 13 Dec 2007 09:39:40 -0500, Lynn <lynn_...@lycos.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Truly wealthy people don't talk about how rich they are. They don't
>>>have to.
>>
>> Oh, hogwash. There are buttloads of insecure wealthy people who either
>> talk about their money or flash their expensive toys about to make
>> sure everyone knows they're wealthy. Even old money breeds insecurity
>> sometimes.
>
>I would argue that if you're insecure, you're not truly wealthy. Wealth
>is about having enough, IMO.
There is, of course, the possibility of being insecure about things other
than money, with concomittant use of money to cover up the insecurity.
Penelope Periwinkle
wrote:
>Penelope Periwinkle wrote:
>> On 13 Dec 2007 09:39:40 -0500, Lynn <lynn_...@lycos.com> wrote:
>
>>>Truly wealthy people don't talk about how rich they are. They don't
>>>have to.
>>
>>
>> Oh, hogwash. There are buttloads of insecure wealthy people who either
>> talk about their money or flash their expensive toys about to make
>> sure everyone knows they're wealthy. Even old money breeds insecurity
>> sometimes.
>
>I would argue that if you're insecure, you're not truly wealthy. Wealth
>is about having enough, IMO.
Wealth can have absolutely nothing to do with security or insecurity.
If you're insecure, it's a handy prop to convince yourself and your
peer group that you're worthy, just like a muscle car cobbled together
by shade tree mechanics or a home perm or a bizarre piercing. We live
in a society that uses conspicuous displays of wealth or athletic
ability or intelligence to assign social rank.
Dr. Brat
> In article <gr-dnWLQn7BK9Pza...@comcast.com>,
> Dr. Brat <epc...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Penelope Periwinkle wrote:
>>
>>>On 13 Dec 2007 09:39:40 -0500, Lynn <lynn_...@lycos.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Truly wealthy people don't talk about how rich they are. They don't
>>>>have to.
>>>
>>>Oh, hogwash. There are buttloads of insecure wealthy people who either
>>>talk about their money or flash their expensive toys about to make
>>>sure everyone knows they're wealthy. Even old money breeds insecurity
>>>sometimes.
>>
>>I would argue that if you're insecure, you're not truly wealthy. Wealth
>>is about having enough, IMO.
>
>
> There is, of course, the possibility of being insecure about things other
> than money, with concomittant use of money to cover up the insecurity.
Right, but a person in that position is not wealthy, to me. Again,
wealth is about having enough (money, love, looks, smarts, you name it).
Penelope Periwinkle
> Penelope Periwinkle <pperiwin...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Lynn <lynn_ma...@lycos.com> wrote:
>> >On Dec 12, 12:59 pm, Guy Barry <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> > On Dec 11, 12:29 am, VilleB...@webtv.net wrote:
>>
>> >> > > Grow up Guy. It's done and over.
>>
>> >> No it isn't. As far as I'm concerned, being a gifted kid was *better*
>> >> than being an adult...It's a state of being, feeling that you're leading a
>> >> charmed existence.
>>
>> >> If I go on in this vein you're going to start thinking that I'm a
>> >> nutcase, and understandably so. That's why I need to speak to my own
>> >> kind about it.
>>
>> >Truly wealthy people don't talk about how rich they are. They don't
>> >have to.
>>
>> Oh, hogwash. There are buttloads of insecure wealthy people who either
>> talk about their money or flash their expensive toys about to make
>> sure everyone knows they're wealthy. Even old money breeds insecurity
>> sometimes.
>
>That makes my point slightly pointier. It is gauche to do so; and, as
>you mention, such behavior is about insecurity not the wealth.
Yeah, but they still talk about it, despite you trotting out that old
stereotype to use as a snark at Guy. Stinking rich people, sorta rich
people, and barely rich people...they all have a few members who talk
about their money. And no, it is not always gauche, just like talking
about the effect being treated as a gifted child has on an adult isn't
necessarily gauche.
I'm just not getting the impression that Guy is using being a gifted
child as bling.
>> You know, Guy seems to feel that a good part of his adult life has
>> been shaped by his childhood experiences as a "gifted" child.
>
>(which we lowly ssm'ers couldn't possibly comprehend)
Ha! Perhaps if you weren't so lowly you might see the action/reaction
synergy between you and VilleBill's posts and Guy's.
Naw, seriously, I realize that Guy is traditionally a whipping boy
here on ssm, and I don't really remember if your were part of the
Great Complaint or not; but two things occur to me. Guy's trying
really hard this time around not to be so annoying and to have
meaningful conversations. If, as the Great Complainers assert, we need
to turn away from the Dark Side of Art Snarking and knee jerk
assumptions of ill will to revive ssm; shouldn't Guy be given the
benefit of the doubt?
>> There
>> was a time when teasing that sort of thing apart and helping folks
>> come to terms with those sort of experiences was bread and butter on
>> ssm.
>
>as entertainment. usually not to really help, especially when help
>isn't
>requested/welcome.
>
>IME
But Guy seems to want to talk about his experience in more depth than
"ya rilly" or "Grow up Guy. It's done and over."
Dr. Brat
>
> But Guy seems to want to talk about his experience in more depth than
> "ya rilly" or "Grow up Guy. It's done and over."
Yes, but he has also indicated, in spite of several people responding in
depth and with more than "grow up," that he doesn't really want to
discuss it here. He wants to find "his own kind."
I also think that there was quite a bit more to VilleBill's post than
simply saying "get over it." YMMV.
Stef
Lynn <lynn_...@lycos.com> wrote:
>On Dec 13, 8:58 am, Penelope Periwinkle <pperiwin...@mindspring.com>
>wrote:
>> talk about their money or flash their expensive toys about to make
>> sure everyone knows they're wealthy. Even old money breeds insecurity
>> sometimes.
>
>That makes my point slightly pointier. It is gauche to do so; and, as
>you mention, such behavior is about insecurity not the wealth.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that how and when one reveals information
about one's financial assets is a culturally dependent trait, not a
psychiatric symptom.
Within a single culture, individual differences might have something to
do with psychology, but not across cultures.
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
Given that God is infinite...and the universe is also infinite...
would you like a toasted teacake? -- Red Dwarf
Lynn
wrote:
> ... talking about the effect being treated as a gifted child has on
> an adult isn't necessarily gauche.
> I'm just not getting the impression that Guy is using being a gifted
> child as bling.
eh, whatever. I just felt like it has been a little "protest too much"-
y
for me.
> Guy's trying really hard this time around not to be so annoying
> and to have meaningful conversations.
true. everyone has their quirks(*), and that makes for interesting
discourse. and everyone doesn't have to be interested in every
conversation.
> If, as the Great Complainers assert, we need
> to turn away from the Dark Side of Art Snarking and knee jerk
> assumptions of ill will to revive ssm; shouldn't Guy be given the
> benefit of the doubt?
WOW! super-crossforum-crossthread!
-Lynn
(*) If everyone had a quirke, though, that would make for very
interesting conversation ;>
Aahz Maruch
Lynn <lynn_...@lycos.com> wrote:
>
>true. everyone has their quirks(*), [...]
Not necessarily, unless you also have a gym, but that might be a bit taki.
>(*) If everyone had a quirke, though, that would make for very
>interesting conversation ;>
Taking this discussion in a tony direction?
kmd
Ye goode olde dayes of soc.singles.moderated.therapy
>[...] few people being "helped" found it a comfortable experience.
Especially on the fourth or fifth or fifteenth iteration.
--
Kristen
Aahz Maruch
Dr. Brat <epc...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Aahz Maruch wrote:
>> In article <gr-dnWLQn7BK9Pza...@comcast.com>,
>> Dr. Brat <epc...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>Penelope Periwinkle wrote:
>>>>On 13 Dec 2007 09:39:40 -0500, Lynn <lynn_...@lycos.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Truly wealthy people don't talk about how rich they are. They don't
>>>>>have to.
>>>>
>>>>Oh, hogwash. There are buttloads of insecure wealthy people who either
>>>>talk about their money or flash their expensive toys about to make
>>>>sure everyone knows they're wealthy. Even old money breeds insecurity
>>>>sometimes.
>>>
>>>I would argue that if you're insecure, you're not truly wealthy. Wealth
>>>is about having enough, IMO.
>>
>> There is, of course, the possibility of being insecure about things other
>> than money, with concomittant use of money to cover up the insecurity.
>
>Right, but a person in that position is not wealthy, to me. Again,
>wealth is about having enough (money, love, looks, smarts, you name it).
That's certainly one reasonable way to look at it, although I don't
subscribe to it myself. I think that defining wealth strictly in terms
of psychological factors misses the external effects of other people
perceiving someone as wealthy.
Selki
> >On Dec 12, 12:59 pm, Guy Barry <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >> If I go on in this vein you're going to start thinking that I'm a
> >> nutcase, and understandably so. That's why I need to speak to my own
> >> kind about it.
As Dr. Brat pointed out (less snarkily?), apparently the comments here
from folks who grew up "gifted" sailed over your head. Here, I'll add my
mite: my dad, having been skipped two grades and having had not-great
experiences in school because of that, encouraged us *not* to skip grades.
And he and my mom encouraged good study habits, not just getting by on
smarts. I was lucky. The only warping I got in that respect (since
I grew up fairly happy, other than being picked on by kids, but I put
that down to other causes) boils down to putting a bit too high value on
being smart.
> You know, Guy seems to feel that a good part of his adult life has
> been shaped by his childhood experiences as a "gifted" child. There
> was a time when teasing that sort of thing apart and helping folks
> come to terms with those sort of experiences was bread and butter on
> ssm.
True, though it helps if those folks understand the relevance of what's
being said (whether or not they agree).
It's a rare day on ssm when I agree with both Dr. Brat and Penelope!
Enjoy,
Selki
Velochicdunord
A bit of a flip answer, because I'm posting from the Google Groups
interface, am doing a drive-by and well... just because.
I was a pretty smart cookie in high school, but had/still have a bit
of a short attention span.
For a long time I had a sense of entitlement (although I didn't
recognize it as such at the time)
and persisted in being outraged that the world didn't recognize my
artistic genius.
(well, not really, because I had a very good idea of where and at what
level my artistic talents lay, but I was having difficulty connecting
that earning a higher income)
That gets old fast.
My approach has changed over the years, to the point that I would be
considered "dogged" on certain matters. :)
(translated, I won't let them go until it works the way I think it
should)
A number of years ago, I "got" that persistence and focus counts.
Since that time, I've kept the following hanging next to the coffee
pot:
"Press on. Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with
talent. Genious will not; unrewarded genious is almost a proverb.
Education alone will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and dtermination alone are omnipotent."
Find your cause or mission. Then do it.
Keep at it through crap, disbelief, discouragement and discouragement.
Found mine this past year.
Velochicdunord.
Aahz Maruch
>"enough" of to perceive themselves as wealthy.
True or not, it misses my point that people (in general) will treat other
people they perceive as wealthy differently.
Dr. Brat
But that only affects some people. Some people expect to be treated
differently because they're (wealthy, smart, well-connected, in a
position of power) and others don't. Some people are even annoyed by it.
The question I'm wondering about is the difference between how I
perceive myself (wealthy, poor, gifted, stupid) and how others perceive
me and the interplay of those two things. I'm arguing that one is more
important and you appear to be arguing that the other is more important,
but I'm wondering also about the balance between the two, or if it
simply depends on the subject.
Aahz Maruch
From my POV, I'm not arguing that the external is more important, only
that you appear to be ignoring it. As long as you agree that wealth does
not lie solely in the eye of the possessor, there's not much disagreement
between us. (I'm not particularly interested in trying to draw lines
about the interplay between internal and external perceptions of wealth.)
Guy Barry
delighted! This group was moribund a couple of months ago, and I
wanted to get it back to something like its old self. Looks like I've
succeeded.
I'll comment in detail on everything later, but I just wanted to put
the record straight:
On Dec 14, 2:53 pm, Selki <se...@io.invalid> wrote:
> As Dr. Brat pointed out (less snarkily?), apparently the comments here
> from folks who grew up "gifted" sailed over your head.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I learned a hell of a lot
from what I read here, hugely appreciate what the other participants
have contributed, and have re-read the exchanges several times. I
also appreciate the comments of those who felt there was an element of
"protest too much" in what I said, and can entirely sympathize. I'm
sure that if I were from a different background I'd feel exactly the
same way.
I said a little while ago that I thought "the best days of ssm are
still ahead of us". I'm absolutely sure of that now.
Guy
Guy Barry
> Guy Barry wrote:
> > If I go on in this vein you're going to start thinking that I'm a
> > nutcase, and understandably so. That's why I need to speak to my own
> > kind about it.
>
> wasn't gifted or above average as a child?
Actually, I have no idea.
You've always struck me as someone who slogged her way through early
education in order to become a success in her own field and is
justifiably proud of it. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I don't *know*
anything about the educational backgrounds of people in this group,
because in general it doesn't come up on the group. Perhaps it's one
of these things that people prefer discussing offline (as Serene
mentioned with regard to Piglet).
The only thing I know about people on this group as a whole is that
they're all pretty good at expressing themselves in writing.
Guy
Guy Barry
> Truly wealthy people don't talk about how rich they are. They don't
> have to.
Given that I'm sitting here in a one-bedroomed flat with inadequate
heating and still don't earn enough money to cover my outgoings, maybe
that's just as well.
Guy
Guy Barry
wrote:
> You know, Guy seems to feel that a good part of his adult life has
> been shaped by his childhood experiences as a "gifted" child. There
> was a time when teasing that sort of thing apart and helping folks
> come to terms with those sort of experiences was bread and butter on
> ssm.
Well, no, there wasn't - but maybe it could start now.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Guy
Guy Barry
> Penelope Periwinkle wrote:
> > Oh, hogwash. There are buttloads of insecure wealthy people who either
> > talk about their money or flash their expensive toys about to make
> > sure everyone knows they're wealthy. Even old money breeds insecurity
> > sometimes.
>
> I would argue that if you're insecure, you're not truly wealthy. Wealth
> is about having enough, IMO.
I think she means "insecure" emotionally and "wealthy" materially, in
which case there's no contradiction.
Guy
Guy Barry
wrote:
> I'm just not getting the impression that Guy is using being a gifted
> child as bling.
I'm certainly not! Rather the opposite.
> Naw, seriously, I realize that Guy is traditionally a whipping boy
> here on ssm,
Actually, no one's mentioned it since I came back - apart from you
with your comment about "vermin", which I know was a joke but still
don't think was really appropriate.
> and I don't really remember if your were part of the
> Great Complaint or not; but two things occur to me. Guy's trying
> really hard this time around not to be so annoying and to have
> meaningful conversations. If, as the Great Complainers assert, we need
> to turn away from the Dark Side of Art Snarking and knee jerk
> assumptions of ill will to revive ssm; shouldn't Guy be given the
> benefit of the doubt?
Yes. (Not that I'm entirely neutral here.)
> But Guy seems to want to talk about his experience in more depth than
> "ya rilly" or "Grow up Guy. It's done and over."
If that's how they feel about what I've written, then they're entitled
to express it. I don't have a problem with any criticism until it
degenerates into name-calling and flame-wars. I had already expressed
reservations that I might be excluding parts of the group.
Guy
Guy Barry
> > "ya rilly" or "Grow up Guy. It's done and over."
>
> depth and with more than "grow up," that he doesn't really want to
> discuss it here. He wants to find "his own kind."
That is simply not true. I've had some really useful and stimulating
discussions with people here who've had similar experiences, and I'm
very grateful to them for that. But I'm also aware that there are
many people here who haven't, and I don't want them to feel that
they're being shut out. There's a level of depth beyond which I don't
think it would be appropriate to go on a group like this.
> I also think that there was quite a bit more to VilleBill's post than
> simply saying "get over it." YMMV.
Yes, there was, and I appreciated it.
Guy
Guy Barry
> (*) If everyone had a quirke, though, that would make for very
> interesting conversation
Absolutely. Do you want to start with yours?
Guy
Dr. Brat
> On Dec 12, 8:48 pm, "Dr. Brat" <epc...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Guy Barry wrote:
>>
>>>If I go on in this vein you're going to start thinking that I'm a
>>>nutcase, and understandably so. That's why I need to speak to my own
>>>kind about it.
>>
>>What makes you think that there is a single person on this forum who
>>wasn't gifted or above average as a child?
>
>
> Actually, I have no idea.
>
> You've always struck me as someone who slogged her way through early
> education in order to become a success in her own field and is
> justifiably proud of it. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
You are sooo wrong it's almost laughable. I did't slog until I got to
college and most of that was due to not having developed study skills
early on (didn't need to) and reverse culture shock (my brain wanted to
function in French and I had trouble switching it). Once I got settled,
I didn't have trouble again until I was preparing for my preliminary
exams. I had never developed the work ethic to carry out a program of
study on my own. Had the same problem writing my dissertation and I am
proud of having gotten through both of those (the prelims and the dis),
because I almost didn't, precisely because I did't know how to slog and
a dissertation is nothing if not slogging.
> I don't *know*
> anything about the educational backgrounds of people in this group,
> because in general it doesn't come up on the group. Perhaps it's one
> of these things that people prefer discussing offline (as Serene
> mentioned with regard to Piglet).
I think it does come up. In fact, I'll bet you that at least half the
people here know that I don't have a high school diploma and know why.
> The only thing I know about people on this group as a whole is that
> they're all pretty good at expressing themselves in writing.
When pushed, you say this, but in practice, I think you tend to make
assumptions about people and then act on those assumption as if they
were written in stone. You assume that growing up gifted makes you an
anomoly on this group, when in fact it makes you one of the crowd. You
have often commented on how we drive people off. One of the things that
drives people away is the level of conversation and the assumptions
people make about what references readers will understand.
Guy Barry
> On 13 Dec 2007 11:03:49 -0500, a...@pobox.com (Aahz Maruch) wrote:
>
> Ye goode olde dayes of soc.singles.moderated.therapy
>
> >[...] few people being "helped" found it a comfortable experience.
>
> Especially on the fourth or fifth or fifteenth iteration.
Oh, get over it.
Guy
Dr. Brat
I know what she meant and I disagree. If you're insecure emotionally,
you're not wealthy in my book, because that insecurity will drive you to
look for more and you won't be content. I think wealthy means being
content with what you have. That may be an idiosycratic definition, but
it works for me.
Guy Barry
> I was a pretty smart cookie in high school, but had/still have a bit
> of a short attention span.
What was that you said?
> A number of years ago, I "got" that persistence and focus counts.
Great. Maybe you can show me how to do it. There has only been one
place in my life where persistence has paid off over the last few
years.
(Yes, that's right.)
Guy
Guy Barry
> I also considered myself as a person. In fact one of my great
> frustrations as a child was being treated as less than a person because
> I was small, high pitched and had not yet aged into my civil rights.
Funny... I was small and high pitched as well. I mean, *really* small
and high pitched. That never really bothered me, though. Maybe one
advantage of doing well academically is that it helps you to override
the teasing about other attributes.
> Well the pat answer would be that it was a dream - I just knew. Dreams
> seem to have an implicit narration. Probably due to the audience also
> being the storyteller? I also changed perspective among avatars at one
> point. Actually just before the murder.
>
> Subtle, huh?
Very. But then dreams have a strange logic of their own. In fact I
think that part of being gifted is bringing that dream-world logic
into everyday situations.
Guy
Guy Barry
> I did't slog until I got to
> college and most of that was due to not having developed study skills
> early on (didn't need to) and reverse culture shock (my brain wanted to
> function in French and I had trouble switching it).
OK. It was those comments you once made about "educated waaay beyond
my intelligence" that have always stuck.
> Once I got settled,
> I didn't have trouble again until I was preparing for my preliminary
> exams. I had never developed the work ethic to carry out a program of
> study on my own. Had the same problem writing my dissertation and I am
> proud of having gotten through both of those (the prelims and the dis),
> because I almost didn't, precisely because I did't know how to slog and
> a dissertation is nothing if not slogging.
I'm with you there.
> I think it does come up. In fact, I'll bet you that at least half the
> people here know that I don't have a high school diploma and know why.
Has it come up on the group? Not that I pretend to have read
*everything* on ssm, you understand (though sometimes it feels like a
qualification for participating).
> When pushed, you say this, but in practice, I think you tend to make
> assumptions about people and then act on those assumption as if they
> were written in stone.
Is that an assumption you're making about me? :-)
> You assume that growing up gifted makes you an
> anomoly on this group, when in fact it makes you one of the crowd.
About time too...
> You have often commented on how we drive people off. One of the things that
> drives people away is the level of conversation and the assumptions
> people make about what references readers will understand.
No, that's not what I was referring to. I've seen some (apparently)
highly educated, articulate people driven off this group. Which is a
huge pity, as it's probably one of the few places left on the net
where they still ought to be welcome.
Guy