Admin: I bow out
Bathsheba Grossman
(Deane and Piranha are the primary admins, and Mike Sullivan is the
other backup). Due to Deane's obsessive diligence about running the
mod-bot, I've never actually done anything about it, but I would be in
line to take it over, if he and the fish should lose interest or be
hit by a truck.
Obviously there needs to be somebody available for this purpose, but
since I'm no longer a regular poster, boinker, &ct, I'd like to resign
the responsibility.
So, who wants to take over the post? IIRC, there's no official
procedure for replacing admins: all we need is a willing victim and a
reasonable level of consensus.
The 'bot is in C, so expertise there would be desirable, and knowledge
of how news works would be good too. It is however very well
documented, with a good interface, so a nonprogrammer could get by.
Knowledge of how to work a Unix shell is indispensable: the successful
applicant should be able to telnet, deal with a prompt, and use vi or
emacs.
The duties are, more or less:
familiarize yourself with the bot's documentation
keep the moderator account info in trust
make sure the main admins can contact you
be reasonably available if they need a vacation
be responsible for taking over in the unlikely event that they
become unable to perform their duties.
Basically you're a group godparent. Am I missing anything, Deane &
fish?
For those of you who are wondering how a longtime lurker got to be a
backup admin in the first place, I spearheaded the creation of this
group: wrote the charter and argued the case in news groups and like
that.
-Sheba
Bathsheba Grossman (831) 429-8224
Zoa Sculpture http://www.bathsheba.com
Matthew Daly
>
>Obviously there needs to be somebody available for this purpose, but
>since I'm no longer a regular poster, boinker, &ct, I'd like to resign
>the responsibility.
I don't mean to demean your problem-solving skills, Sheba, but wouldn't it
be easier and more productive to get to the root of your problem -- your
posting and boinking frequency -- rather than wasting our time on these
ancillary issues?
-Matthew
---
Matthew Daly mwd...@pobox.com http://www.frontiernet.net/~mwdaly/
My propositions are elucidatory in this way: he who understands
them finally recognizes them as senseless ... whereof one cannot
speak thereof one must be silent.
songbird
Bathsheba Grossman <sh...@dnai.com> wrote in message
news:7mdh2j$6qq$1...@triton.dnai.com...
> I'm still officially one of the backup administrators for this group
> (Deane and Piranha are the primary admins, and Mike Sullivan is the
> other backup). Due to Deane's obsessive diligence about running the
> mod-bot, I've never actually done anything about it, but I would be in
> line to take it over, if he and the fish should lose interest or be
> hit by a truck.
i would like to do it. however, i must say this with the qualifications
that i'm not planning on being even slightly reliable because of the
travels i'm off on at times (or having planned for me :).
what i am wondering about is if Deane and Piranha are about to
get heavily involved in fixing a home for themselves how much time
they will have for it. (and the other thing is that i have no idea
of how much time they spend on the task)
> Obviously there needs to be somebody available for this purpose, but
> since I'm no longer a regular poster, boinker, &ct, I'd like to resign
> the responsibility.
err, well, it's not like we don't miss you or something. :)
is there any amount of grovelling this wee poor soul can do to
get you to write home more often? or am i just nagging and being
a bore once again?
[who wants to and the list of skills]
about the weakest of those that list is direct news experience. C
i have plenty of and the same with the rest.
[...]
> For those of you who are wondering how a longtime lurker got to be a
> backup admin in the first place, I spearheaded the creation of this
> group: wrote the charter and argued the case in news groups and like
> that.
yes, the mingled blood you shed for this group and the sweat that
i wasn't even deemed worthy enough to wipe from your furrowed brow
is the finest nectar even a bug could like.
> -Sheba
> Bathsheba Grossman (831) 429-8224
> Zoa Sculpture http://www.bathsheba.com
welcome back, if only for a moment.
songbird *tweets*
Dean Edmonds
Bathsheba Grossman <sh...@dnai.com> wrote:
>
>The 'bot is in C, so expertise there would be desirable,
I'd really play down the need or even desirability of any C or programming
expertise. It's been over a year since the bot's code was last modified,
so active code maintenance is not an issue. If some new bug does appear,
a non-programmer moderator can easily call upon the programmers in the
group to lend a hand.
>and knowledge of how news works would be good too.
[...]
>Knowledge of how to work a Unix shell is indispensable: the successful
>applicant should be able to telnet, deal with a prompt, and use vi or
>emacs.
I would add the ability to sweet-talk system-administrators in there as
well. :-)
>The duties are, more or less:
>
>familiarize yourself with the bot's documentation
>keep the moderator account info in trust
>make sure the main admins can contact you
>be reasonably available if they need a vacation
>be responsible for taking over in the unlikely event that they
> become unable to perform their duties.
>
>Basically you're a group godparent. Am I missing anything, Deane &
>fish?
Sounds about right to me.
If anyone is interested, I can mail them a copy of the ssm Moderator's
Handbook. (Don't worry, asking for the Handbook will _not_ be taken as a
commitment to join the moderation team. :-)
>For those of you who are wondering how a longtime lurker got to be a
>backup admin in the first place, I spearheaded the creation of this
>group: wrote the charter and argued the case in news groups and like
>that.
And a good thing, too.
Thanx for all the hard work, bug-babe.
===========================================================================
- deane | Heard in O'Neill's, home of the PugBurger:
| "You folks are as busy as a horse's tail during fly season!"
Dean Edmonds
songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>
> i would like to do it. however, i must say this with the qualifications
>that i'm not planning on being even slightly reliable because of the
>travels i'm off on at times (or having planned for me :).
Remember that we are looking for a backup moderator at this time, not a
primary. So the main question is whether you can say, given two weeks
warning, if you'll be around for a solid week. The main purpose of a
backup is to take over temporarily when the primaries go on vacation,
undergo brain surgery, fall into a vat of jello which isn't lime-flavoured,
etc.
And keep in mind that no one lives or dies by ssm. To steal a line from
Cynthia Heimel, if they did then they'd be dead already. So it's not like
you can't go out cycling for the day, even when you're on duty. The main
thing is to check your email and the group once a day to make sure that
every is copacetic.
(In checking the spelling of `copacetic' in the dictionary, I discovered
that it is a slang term. Whooda thunkit? It has such a latin feel to it that
I'd always just assumed that it was a formal part of the language.)
> what i am wondering about is if Deane and Piranha are about to
>get heavily involved in fixing a home for themselves how much time
>they will have for it. (and the other thing is that i have no idea
>of how much time they spend on the task)
I can't speak for the fish, but in the three months prior to today I'd
spent something on the order of an hour, in total, on my moderation duties.
All of that consisted of responding to emails from people who were having
problems posting. (In every case it was a problem with their ISP, as
usual.)
Today I spent several hours on it, but that was just because, after seeing
Sheba's resignation, I decided to review the Moderator's Handbook and the
automod documentation to make sure they were up to date.
> about the weakest of those that list is direct news experience. C
>i have plenty of and the same with the rest.
When you are on active moderator duty, there are three types of tasks that
come your way:
1) Helping people with posting problems.
This basically consists of telling them that their ISP is screwed up
since that is almost always the problem. You still have to track it
down to be sure, though, and give them advice on how to convince their
ISP that the problem is indeed at their end (since the ISP _always_
denies it).
Some news knowledge would be handy here, but the Handbook pretty much
takes you through it all anyway.
2) Answering miscellaneous questions.
Sometimes you'll get people asking to have their names removed from
the database. Others asking for the FAQ. Others who didn't really mean
to send you email but just can't type or spell to save their lives.
Etc.
This doesn't really require news knowledge, just a basic understanding
of the group's charter, knowledge of where the various FAQs reside,
and patience.
3) Crises.
Panix is down, or has changed their news software. Evolution is down.
Usenet is down. The end of the world is nigh. These are, thankfully,
rare, and they are the only times when an in-depth knowledge of how
news works becomes useful. Fortunately, you are not alone in those
crisis times as the folks at Panix are generally quite helpfully, as
is Piglet at evolution.com and the many experienced denizens of the
Usenet moderators mailing list.
> yes, the mingled blood you shed for this group and the sweat that
>i wasn't even deemed worthy enough to wipe from your furrowed brow
>is the finest nectar even a bug could like.
Well, there goes any idea _I_ might have had of sucking up to She Of The
Death Gaze.
I know when I'm beat.
das
wrote:
>If anyone is interested, I can mail them a copy of the ssm Moderator's
>Handbook. (Don't worry, asking for the Handbook will _not_ be taken as a
>commitment to join the moderation team. :-)
Sigh. I'm just a glutton for punishment. I meet all the
qualifications, and I'm already a news admins for a very
large company, so why not add more stress and
upheaval to my life? [This whine is not a commitment to
become the new backup moderator.] Send me the Handbook,
and I'll have a looksee and make a decision if I want to apply for the
position.
Thanks, Sheba, for all the work you did to create this newsgroup.
---
Debbie the Gruesome d...@halcyon.com
"I'm not crazy, I've just been in a very bad mood for 40 years."
_Steel Magnolias_
Nicer people than me hang out at http://www.booksatoz.com/witsend/index.htm
Bathsheba Grossman
>>since I'm no longer a regular poster, boinker, &ct, I'd like to resign
>>the responsibility.
>
>be easier and more productive to get to the root of your problem -- your
>posting and boinking frequency -- rather than wasting our time on these
>ancillary issues?
Aren't you the cutie pie.
That reminds me - now that I have this enormous house in an area famed
for its spectacular beaches, redwood forest, wine-tasting, and tacky
amusement park, when should ScruzBoink be?
Maybe late fall would be good? It never really gets warm enough to
swim, so one doesn't miss anything by not doing it in summer, and then
one can enjoy the woodstove in the evening.
piranha
>since I'm no longer a regular poster, boinker, &ct, I'd like to resign
>the responsibility.
matthew is right, dammit.
>The 'bot is in C, so expertise there would be desirable,
not really. <cue reggae tune> that bot, it run nicely now.
can't think of anything that would require a backup modera-
tor to know how to program. we take it if we can get it,
but don't be discouraged if you don't. as long as there is
at least one programmer on the team, we're ok.
>and knowledge
>of how news works would be good too.
knowledge of how news and mail and moderated groups work
would help, but much of that can be acquired by talking
to your friendly primary moderators.
>It is however very well
>documented, with a good interface, so a nonprogrammer could get by.
>Knowledge of how to work a Unix shell is indispensable: the successful
>applicant should be able to telnet, deal with a prompt, and use vi or
>emacs.
yup. basic unix shell, nothing fancy.
>The duties are, more or less:
>
>familiarize yourself with the bot's documentation
that reminds me. i ought to write a bit more about the
interactions with ISPs. stuff's been collecting.
>keep the moderator account info in trust
promise to not, ever, ever, fuck with the database, as
in, taking somebody out, no matter how obnoxious -- we
all promised this group is bot moderated only, and with-
out a group vote, that will not change.
taking people out is only allowed upon personal request.
basically, swear on your gramma's teeth or whatever you
hold dear that you will uphold the charter.
>make sure the main admins can contact you
>be reasonably available if they need a vacation
>be responsible for taking over in the unlikely event that they
> become unable to perform their duties.
you'll get our phone number so you can call in case we
can't be reached via email.
and there is another backup moderator, so you're usu-
ally not in this alone.
>Basically you're a group godparent. Am I missing anything, Deane &
>fish?
be patient, at least as much as i on a good day. you
might have to deal with everything from clueless newbies
to clueful, yet not very computer savvy oldbies, and
their sysadmins. not very often, these days, but often
enough that it helps if you don't have a short fuse, and
if you can talk reasonably intelligently with both te-
chies and citizenry. no terse applicants, please; folks
like to be kept informed of their fate. must read the
group too, because some people don't report their pro-
blems to the admin address, they pop up one post and
then tell others how most of their posts don't seem to
show up. gotta watch for that. it might indicate a
problem at the isc round robin.
most of the problems we've experienced in the last year
have been with a) round robin screwups and b) bad setups
at individual ISPs. round robin problems are usually
detected through the moderators mailing list, or through
several reliable people complaining their posts disappear
(janet is my personal indicator :-); bad setups at ISPs
are detected through a pretty standard series of checks
we'll teach you about.
overall this is _not_ a time-consuming affair, it goes
in small spurts; somebody, like bob (just the latest
victim) suddenly finds zie can't post anymore, or a new-
comer can't get through. then you ask a bunch of ques-
tions, fire off some email to the person, maybe some email
to the ISP, back and forth it goes for a couple of rounds,
and that's it, problem solved.
this seems to happen only about once a month to somebody
now; we are well propagated in general. i'd only expect
an increase if for some reason we become famous, and get
lots of new people subscribing. it has been less than
30 min of work for me per week lately, not counting rea-
ding the group.
>For those of you who are wondering how a longtime lurker got to be a
>backup admin in the first place, I spearheaded the creation of this
>group: wrote the charter and argued the case in news groups and like
>that.
the legend, however, lives on.
-piranha
------------------------------------------------------------------------
please help fight spam -- http://www.cauce.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andreas Tovornik
> mwd...@pobox.com:
>>
>>I don't mean to demean your problem-solving skills, Sheba, but wouldn't it
>>be easier and more productive to get to the root of your problem -- your
>>posting and boinking frequency -- rather than wasting our time on these
>>ancillary issues?
>
> Aren't you the cutie pie.
>
> That reminds me - now that I have this enormous house in an area famed
> for its spectacular beaches, redwood forest, wine-tasting, and tacky
> amusement park, when should ScruzBoink be?
>
> Maybe late fall would be good? It never really gets warm enough to
> swim, so one doesn't miss anything by not doing it in summer, and then
> one can enjoy the woodstove in the evening.
If you plan it in early November or in the first three months
of the new year, I'd definitely be tempted...
--
'dreas...tbtw#5 Taking life as she leaps into my lap and
Victoria Taxi#15 embracing her as she is seems to be the
It's not my fault! best way to go. If she's soft and likes
Sniggling since 1992 to cuddle, I won't kick her out of bed.
Allisson
Bathsheba Grossman <sh...@dnai.com> wrote:
>mwd...@pobox.com:
>>I'll never forget the time that sh...@dnai.com (Bathsheba Grossman) said:
>>>
>>>since I'm no longer a regular poster, boinker, &ct, I'd like to resign
>>>the responsibility.
>>
>>be easier and more productive to get to the root of your problem -- your
>>posting and boinking frequency -- rather than wasting our time on these
>>ancillary issues?
>
>Aren't you the cutie pie.
>
>That reminds me - now that I have this enormous house in an area famed
>for its spectacular beaches, redwood forest, wine-tasting, and tacky
>amusement park, when should ScruzBoink be?
>
>Maybe late fall would be good? It never really gets warm enough to
>swim, so one doesn't miss anything by not doing it in summer, and then
>one can enjoy the woodstove in the evening.
A boink at Sheba's! One of my last boinks was at Sheba's (Philly)! I've
never been to CA and this would be a perfect excuse ...
Allisson
--
The usual tailor-made, cut considerably shorter in the skirt and
arranged with due consideration of the exigencies of wheeling,
constitutes the ordinary bicycling dress, with a neatly-cut coat
and a hat not over-trimmed. --"Manners for Women (1897)"
Allison Turner
Grossman) wrote:
> mwd...@pobox.com:
> >I'll never forget the time that sh...@dnai.com (Bathsheba Grossman) said:
> >>
> >>Obviously there needs to be somebody available for this purpose, but
> >>since I'm no longer a regular poster, boinker, &ct, I'd like to resign
> >>the responsibility.
> >
> >I don't mean to demean your problem-solving skills, Sheba, but wouldn't it
> >be easier and more productive to get to the root of your problem -- your
> >posting and boinking frequency -- rather than wasting our time on these
> >ancillary issues?
Me too, me too. I agree. yes definitely.
> Aren't you the cutie pie.
Does that mean I'm cute, too?
(Well ok, so I only agreed; Matthew was the one with the actual words)
> That reminds me - now that I have this enormous house in an area famed
> for its spectacular beaches, redwood forest, wine-tasting, and tacky
> amusement park, when should ScruzBoink be?
>
> Maybe late fall would be good? It never really gets warm enough to
> swim, so one doesn't miss anything by not doing it in summer, and then
> one can enjoy the woodstove in the evening.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
-Allison.
(life's looking better already)
Allisson
piranha <pir...@pobox.com> wrote:
>Bathsheba Grossman <sh...@dnai.com> wrote:
>>
>>Obviously there needs to be somebody available for this purpose, but
>>since I'm no longer a regular poster, boinker, &ct, I'd like to resign
>>the responsibility.
>
I know I should've trimmed that for brevity but the advice and commentary
were sound.
Okay, I'll volunteer. I need more things in my life (besides, then I
can claim Usenet as a responsibility rather than just a 'habit'). Maybe,
since I think I make three -- gullible vic...volunteers -- perhaps we could
have two+ backups?
Charles R Martin
Bathsheba Grossman wrote:
>
> mwd...@pobox.com:
> >I'll never forget the time that sh...@dnai.com (Bathsheba Grossman) said:
> >>
> >>Obviously there needs to be somebody available for this purpose, but
> >>since I'm no longer a regular poster, boinker, &ct, I'd like to resign
> >>the responsibility.
> >
> >I don't mean to demean your problem-solving skills, Sheba, but wouldn't it
> >be easier and more productive to get to the root of your problem -- your
> >posting and boinking frequency -- rather than wasting our time on these
> >ancillary issues?
>
> Aren't you the cutie pie.
>
> That reminds me - now that I have this enormous house in an area famed
> for its spectacular beaches, redwood forest, wine-tasting, and tacky
> amusement park, when should ScruzBoink be?
>
> Maybe late fall would be good? It never really gets warm enough to
> swim, so one doesn't miss anything by not doing it in summer, and then
> one can enjoy the woodstove in the evening.
>
> -Sheba
> Bathsheba Grossman (831) 429-8224
> Zoa Sculpture http://www.bathsheba.com
--
I can only please one person per day.
Today is not your day.
Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Charles R Martin * Superior, CO * 80027
Charles R Martin
--
Bathsheba Grossman
>> since I'm no longer a regular poster, boinker, &ct, I'd like to resign
>> the responsibility.
>
>is there any amount of grovelling this wee poor soul can do to
>get you to write home more often? or am i just nagging and being
>a bore once again?
The trouble is, after making a living on the computer and doing
sculpture on it also, it is just no fun to sit in front of it any
more, no matter who's in there.
>[...]
> yes, the mingled blood you shed for this group and the sweat that
>i wasn't even deemed worthy enough to wipe from your furrowed brow
>is the finest nectar even a bug could like.
It's a compliment...no, it's disgusting...no, it's a compliment....
Bathsheba Grossman
pir...@pobox.com:
>Bathsheba Grossman <sh...@dnai.com> wrote:
> that reminds me. i ought to write a bit more about the
> interactions with ISPs. stuff's been collecting.
Good point, I forgot about the wetware interfacing requirement. Well,
I'm not sure there's really much risk of getting anyone terse around
here.
>>keep the moderator account info in trust
>...
> basically, swear on your gramma's teeth or whatever you
> hold dear that you will uphold the charter.
I was just thinking of not losing or letting out the account password,
but maybe they could sign a few loyalty oaths too. Just to be safe.
>>make sure the main admins can contact you
>>be reasonably available if they need a vacation
>>be responsible for taking over in the unlikely event that they
>> become unable to perform their duties.
>
> you'll get our phone number so you can call in case we
> can't be reached via email.
>
> and there is another backup moderator, so you're usu-
> ally not in this alone.
In principle, but is Mike reading the group these days?
>>For those of you who are wondering how a longtime lurker got to be a
>>backup admin in the first place, I spearheaded the creation of this
>>group: wrote the charter and argued the case in news groups and like
>>that.
>
> the legend, however, lives on.
Me and Betsy Ross. It certainly changed my personality - I'm now noted
for tact and forbearance with irritating clients.
Matthew Daly
>"songbird" <ant...@usit.net>:
>
>>[...]
>> yes, the mingled blood you shed for this group and the sweat that
>>i wasn't even deemed worthy enough to wipe from your furrowed brow
>>is the finest nectar even a bug could like.
>
>It's a compliment...no, it's disgusting...no, it's a compliment....
It's a floor wax _and_ a dessert topping!
-Matthew
---
Matthew Daly mwd...@pobox.com http://www.frontiernet.net/~mwdaly/
The longer I live the more I see that I am never wrong about
anything, and that all the pains that I have so humbly taken to
verify my notions have only wasted my time.
Warren Cheney
>In article <TKwi3.274$b4.6...@news1.usit.net>,
>songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
[do not pass go, go directly to Sheba fluff]
> > yes, the mingled blood you shed for this group and the sweat that
> >i wasn't even deemed worthy enough to wipe from your furrowed brow
> >is the finest nectar even a bug could like.
>
>Well, there goes any idea _I_ might have had of sucking up to She Of The
>Death Gaze.
Hey! I'll have you know that in a crowded airport, lo these
many years ago, I actually saw what might be termed Other Than The
Death Gaze.
This, of course, is minor compared to the rare Hell No This Is
Anything But The Death Gaze, which is reserved for those special
individuals and involves hanging from certain areas of her larger
sculptures in lieu of having available chandeliers. Never seen that.
>I know when I'm beat.
When you can't suck up, buy sculpture instead. I'm saving up.
-----Warren (must...go...to...catalog...again)
Mel and Cori, singing a duet of summer peace and love:
"...the only one for me is you, and you for me,
so happy togetherrrrr...NOT!"
Warren Cheney Can't stand spam? http://www.cauce.org
Holly Gallup
Grossman) wrote:
>That reminds me - now that I have this enormous house in an area famed
>for its spectacular beaches, redwood forest, wine-tasting, and tacky
>amusement park, when should ScruzBoink be?
>
>Maybe late fall would be good? It never really gets warm enough to
>swim, so one doesn't miss anything by not doing it in summer, and then
>one can enjoy the woodstove in the evening.
I'm there!
End of October, early November would be perfect. My favorite
time for the north-central coast.
--holly
Bathsheba Grossman
gal...@mediaone.net (Holly Gallup):
Well, the first of November is a Monday, so how about the last weekend
of October? Is that too soon for you, Dreas?
dr. brat
sh...@dnai.com (Bathsheba Grossman) wrote:
>
> Well, the first of November is a Monday, so how about the last weekend
> of October? Is that too soon for you, Dreas?
>
Wah! The last weekend of October is Hallowe'en and I'm
going to be in Salem with a big old house... That's what
I get for not speaking up sooner I suppose, but then, perhaps
there's enough of an audience out there for dual bi-coastal
boinks that weekend. Not a chance in hell I'll be able to
afford to come West.
Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. -Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~the best revenge is living well~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
songbird
Matthew Daly <mwd...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:378bbc89....@news.frontiernet.net...
> I'll never forget the time that sh...@dnai.com (Bathsheba Grossman) said:
>
> >"songbird" <ant...@usit.net>:
> >
> >>[...]
> >>i wasn't even deemed worthy enough to wipe from your furrowed brow
> >>is the finest nectar even a bug could like.
> >
it's silly? :)
> It's a floor wax _and_ a dessert topping!
what is parafin?
songbird *eeps*
gwyddwr
<sh...@dnai.com> writes
>
>pir...@pobox.com:
>>Bathsheba Grossman <sh...@dnai.com> wrote:
>> that reminds me. i ought to write a bit more about the
>> interactions with ISPs. stuff's been collecting.
>
>Good point, I forgot about the wetware interfacing requirement. Well,
>I'm not sure there's really much risk of getting anyone terse around
>here.
Indeed.
--
Neil
piranha
Bathsheba Grossman
>In article <7mir1j$8g8$1...@triton.dnai.com>,
> sh...@dnai.com (Bathsheba Grossman) wrote:
>> Well, the first of November is a Monday, so how about the last weekend
>> of October? Is that too soon for you, Dreas?
>>
>
>Wah! The last weekend of October is Hallowe'en and I'm
>going to be in Salem with a big old house...
Well, that's true, and I can see where it would be a hardship. Maybe
the next weekend would be better.
Allison Turner
Grossman) wrote:
> "dr. brat" <dr_...@my-deja.com>:
> >In article <7mir1j$8g8$1...@triton.dnai.com>,
> > sh...@dnai.com (Bathsheba Grossman) wrote:
> >> Well, the first of November is a Monday, so how about the last weekend
> >> of October? Is that too soon for you, Dreas?
> >>
> >
> >Wah! The last weekend of October is Hallowe'en and I'm
> >going to be in Salem with a big old house...
>
> Well, that's true, and I can see where it would be a hardship. Maybe
> the next weekend would be better.
Hm.
I was going to mention that I have a conference in MD the second weekend
of November. Now that I look it up, though, it's actually the first Weds
- Fri of that month. I wonder if I can ship myself straight from a
conference to CA? If Scruzboink ends up being a little later or earlier,
though, that would be easier.
-Allison.
Bathsheba Grossman
>I was going to mention that I have a conference in MD the second weekend
>of November. Now that I look it up, though, it's actually the first Weds
>- Fri of that month. I wonder if I can ship myself straight from a
>conference to CA? If Scruzboink ends up being a little later or earlier,
>though, that would be easier.
What? I'm not here to make your life _easier_. I'm now going to take
votes on 2 choices.
A. Weekend of October 23
B. Weekend of November 6
I'm not having it on Halloween and any later is too close to
Thanksgiving, so them's your apples and pick one.
Holly Gallup
Grossman) wrote:
>beto...@sover.net (Allison Turner):
>>I was going to mention that I have a conference in MD the second weekend
>>of November. Now that I look it up, though, it's actually the first Weds
>>- Fri of that month. I wonder if I can ship myself straight from a
>>conference to CA? If Scruzboink ends up being a little later or earlier,
>>though, that would be easier.
>
>What? I'm not here to make your life _easier_. I'm now going to take
>votes on 2 choices.
>
>A. Weekend of October 23
>
>B. Weekend of November 6
I have a very slight preference for November 6, but given this
much notice, I can rearrange things to make it whichever weekend
works better for everyone else.
--holly
--holly
ant...@pobox.com
: Matthew Daly <mwd...@pobox.com> wrote in message
: news:378bbc89....@news.frontiernet.net...
[context? me?]
:> It's a floor wax _and_ a dessert topping!
: what is parafin?
Naw! That's what a fish needs to keep from swimming in circles.
Antryg
--
ant...@pobox.com - "Everyone should have a sig quote. This one is mine."
"The caffiene in coffee is a non-addictive stimulant, but can be habit-
forming." -- From the back of a Healthy Choice meal.
Andreas Tovornik
>>Grossman) wrote:
>>>That reminds me - now that I have this enormous house in an area famed
>>>for its spectacular beaches, redwood forest, wine-tasting, and tacky
>>>amusement park, when should ScruzBoink be?
>>>
>>>Maybe late fall would be good? It never really gets warm enough to
>>>swim, so one doesn't miss anything by not doing it in summer, and then
>>>one can enjoy the woodstove in the evening.
>>
>>I'm there!
>>
>>End of October, early November would be perfect. My favorite
>>time for the north-central coast.
>
> of October? Is that too soon for you, Dreas?
November 6'th-7'th would be perfect for me...
The last weekend of October combined with Halloween will make that
week extremely profitable. Taking the week afterwards off when the
public won't have any money left means I won't be losing one of my
biggest money-making weekends of the year...
Andreas Tovornik
> "dr. brat" <dr_...@my-deja.com>:
>>In article <7mir1j$8g8$1...@triton.dnai.com>,
>> sh...@dnai.com (Bathsheba Grossman) wrote:
>>> of October? Is that too soon for you, Dreas?
>>>
>>
>>going to be in Salem with a big old house...
>
> Well, that's true, and I can see where it would be a hardship. Maybe
> the next weekend would be better.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes...
piranha
>
>"The caffiene in coffee is a non-addictive stimulant, but can be habit-
> forming." -- From the back of a Healthy Choice meal.
good lhord. really? i mean, i presume they spell
"caffeine" correctly :-), but it really says this;
you got it right off the package?
that is hilarious.
gwyddwr
<pir...@gooroos.com> writes
>In article <od3AGAAf...@hapax.demon.co.uk>,
>gwyddwr <gwy...@hapax.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <7mg464$4hu$1...@triton.dnai.com>, Bathsheba Grossman
>><sh...@dnai.com> writes
>>>
>>>pir...@pobox.com:
>>>>Bathsheba Grossman <sh...@dnai.com> wrote:
>>>> that reminds me. i ought to write a bit more about the
>>>> interactions with ISPs. stuff's been collecting.
>>>
>>>Good point, I forgot about the wetware interfacing requirement. Well,
>>>I'm not sure there's really much risk of getting anyone terse around
>>>here.
>>
>>Indeed.
>
> *bites neil's left buttock*.
>
> -piranha
The things I suffer for my art!
--
Neil
Dean Edmonds
Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>
>I'll do it.
I'll take that to mean: "Please send me a copy of the Handbook" :-)
Will do.
Dean Edmonds
Warren Cheney <offc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>On 13 Jul 1999 01:00:15 -0400, de...@gooroos.com (Dean Edmonds) wrote:
>>
>>I know when I'm beat.
>
> When you can't suck up, buy sculpture instead. I'm saving up.
Hmm. We _will_ be needing an anchor for the boat...
Dean Edmonds
Bathsheba Grossman <sh...@dnai.com> wrote:
>
>What? I'm not here to make your life _easier_. I'm now going to take
>votes on 2 choices.
>
>A. Weekend of October 23
>
>B. Weekend of November 6
B-b-b-but _I_ wanted it to be on a Wednesday!
dr. brat
Lorre <ls...@cnsvax.albany.edu> wrote:
> Dean Edmonds wrote:
> >
> > In article <378bec58...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
> > Warren Cheney <offc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > >On 13 Jul 1999 01:00:15 -0400, de...@gooroos.com (Dean Edmonds)
wrote:
> > >>
> > >>I know when I'm beat.
> > >
> > > When you can't suck up, buy sculpture instead. I'm saving
up.
> >
> > Hmm. We _will_ be needing an anchor for the boat...
>
>
> Boat anchor by Sheba.
>
> Sounds like a commission to me.
Yeah, but the way this conversation is going, she may just
bronze DeanE.
Charles R Martin
"dr. brat" wrote:
>
> In article <378F254A...@cnsvax.albany.edu>,
> Lorre <ls...@cnsvax.albany.edu> wrote:
> > Dean Edmonds wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <378bec58...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
> > > Warren Cheney <offc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > > >On 13 Jul 1999 01:00:15 -0400, de...@gooroos.com (Dean Edmonds)
> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>I know when I'm beat.
> > > >
> > > > When you can't suck up, buy sculpture instead. I'm saving
> up.
> > >
> > > Hmm. We _will_ be needing an anchor for the boat...
> >
> > woah.
> >
> > Boat anchor by Sheba.
> >
> > Sounds like a commission to me.
>
> Yeah, but the way this conversation is going, she may just
> bronze DeanE.
>
If he's lucky.
Charles R Martin
hell".
Dean Edmonds wrote:
>
> In article <378B6775...@iglobal.net>,
> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >I'll do it.
>
> I'll take that to mean: "Please send me a copy of the Handbook" :-)
>
> Will do.
>
> ===========================================================================
> - deane | Heard in O'Neill's, home of the PugBurger:
> | "You folks are as busy as a horse's tail during fly season!"
--
piranha
>In article <378F254A...@cnsvax.albany.edu>,
> Lorre <ls...@cnsvax.albany.edu> wrote:
>> > In article <378bec58...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
>> > Warren Cheney <offc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > When you can't suck up, buy sculpture instead. I'm saving up.
>> >
>> > Hmm. We _will_ be needing an anchor for the boat...
>>
>> woah.
>>
>> Boat anchor by Sheba.
>>
>> Sounds like a commission to me.
>
>Yeah, but the way this conversation is going, she may just
>bronze DeanE.
that's ok. a nice figurehead will suit the boat too.
songbird
Lorre <ls...@cnsvax.albany.edu> wrote in message
news:378F542E...@cnsvax.albany.edu...[...]
> > > > Hmm. We _will_ be needing an anchor for the boat...
> > >
> > > woah.
> > >
> > > Boat anchor by Sheba.
hopefully it will be b'lowher.
> > > Sounds like a commission to me.
> >
> > Yeah, but the way this conversation is going, she may just
> > bronze DeanE.
>
> As long as he poses appropriately, that might just work.
>
> Lorre (no, no, i wuv you DeanE...)
and even if he doesn't poze, i s'pose the phishie
can always pierce a fitting place for the eye.
songbirdiE (since he has noneck
we know one place
where the rope
will not be hung
Bathsheba Grossman
>Dean Edmonds wrote:
>> I'll take that to mean: "Please send me a copy of the Handbook" :-)
>>
>hell".
Well, I hafta tell you, we're not going to have an unlimited supply of
backup moderators - even if the possibility of succession wars ("I'm
in control!") were nil, we'd owe it to Panix to keep things more
secure than that.
So unless Mike also decides to step down (hello?), there's just the
one spot open. I also hafta tell you, those who've been with the
group more continuously are going to have more dibs on it.
Unless there's mass objection, of course. <cue masses>
Dean Edmonds
Lorre <ls...@cnsvax.albany.edu> wrote:
>
>As long as he poses appropriately, that might just work.
>
>Lorre (no, no, i wuv you DeanE...)
And this is how you show it?
No wonder you're still single!
(Oh goody! I haven't had a chance to say that in a while.)
Charles R Martin
Bathsheba Grossman wrote:
>
> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net>:
> >Dean Edmonds wrote:
> >> I'll take that to mean: "Please send me a copy of the Handbook" :-)
> >>
> >Well, no, I really meant "gimme the code and the passwords, what the
> >hell".
>
> Well, I hafta tell you, we're not going to have an unlimited supply of
> backup moderators - even if the possibility of succession wars ("I'm
> in control!") were nil, we'd owe it to Panix to keep things more
> secure than that.
>
> So unless Mike also decides to step down (hello?), there's just the
> one spot open. I also hafta tell you, those who've been with the
> group more continuously are going to have more dibs on it.
So let me get this straight: you're saying I *can't* have the more or
less thankless but low-intensity job because I've not been around enough
recently?
Well, *damn*.
Charles R Martin
piranha wrote:
>
> In article <7mnfr9$gt0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, dr. brat <dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >In article <378F254A...@cnsvax.albany.edu>,
> > Lorre <ls...@cnsvax.albany.edu> wrote:
> >> Dean Edmonds wrote:
> >> > In article <378bec58...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
> >> > Warren Cheney <offc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > When you can't suck up, buy sculpture instead. I'm saving up.
> >> >
> >> > Hmm. We _will_ be needing an anchor for the boat...
> >>
> >> woah.
> >>
> >> Boat anchor by Sheba.
> >>
> >> Sounds like a commission to me.
> >
> >Yeah, but the way this conversation is going, she may just
> >bronze DeanE.
>
> that's ok. a nice figurehead will suit the boat too.
>
Jeez, Deane, if you're just a figurehead, who *is* running things?
songbird
Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote in message
news:378FFA8F...@iglobal.net...
> Bathsheba Grossman wrote:
[...]
> > So unless Mike also decides to step down (hello?), there's just the
> > one spot open. I also hafta tell you, those who've been with the
> > group more continuously are going to have more dibs on it.
>
> So let me get this straight: you're saying I *can't* have the more or
> less thankless but low-intensity job because I've not been around enough
> recently?
>
> Well, *damn*.
i will withdraw my offer. i'm not in the same class as either you
or Debbie and i've not been around much either except the past few
months. (thankless? have you been tweaking the hyperbolic valve
again? :)
songbird *peeps*
das
>Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:378FFA8F...@iglobal.net...
>> Bathsheba Grossman wrote:
>[...]
>> > So unless Mike also decides to step down (hello?), there's just the
>> > one spot open. I also hafta tell you, those who've been with the
>> > group more continuously are going to have more dibs on it.
>or Debbie and i've not been around much either except the past few
>months. (thankless? have you been tweaking the hyperbolic valve
>again? :)
Well, Charlie has more seniority than me overall in the s.s.* hierarchy
as a whole, even though I've been around more in s.s.m. As he has
much more enthusiasm than I do for the job, I'd be happy to give up
my place in line to him.
---
Debbie the Gruesome d...@halcyon.com
"I'm not crazy, I've just been in a very bad mood for 40 years."
_Steel Magnolias_
Nicer people than me hang out at http://www.booksatoz.com/witsend/index.htm
piranha
In article <378F52B1...@iglobal.net>,
Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>Dean Edmonds wrote:
>>
>> In article <378B6775...@iglobal.net>,
>> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >I'll do it.
>>
>> I'll take that to mean: "Please send me a copy of the Handbook" :-)
>>
>> Will do.
>Well, no, I really meant "gimme the code and the passwords, what the
>hell".
that wasn't a good answer, unless it was meant to be
funny. i really prefer somebody who gets informed on
what's involved. it may be a low-intensity job, but
it's pretty important to know what's up with both, the
group itself and the moderation. you've not been much
around the former, and you don't seem to care greatly
about the details of the latter. i really would prefer
somebody with somewhat less laissez-faire 'tude about
it. but thank you for your offer nonetheless.
don't you have enough on your plate with the rec.arts.
drwho.moderated mess anyway? (yes, i am watching it,
in news.groups.)
das
I'm a flake, blah blah blah but:
In article <7mpap7$l1$1...@brokaw.wa.com>, das <d...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>Well, Charlie has more seniority than me overall in the s.s.* hierarchy
>as a whole, even though I've been around more in s.s.m. As he has
>much more enthusiasm than I do for the job, I'd be happy to give up
>my place in line to him.
I wrote the above after midnight, when I should not be allowed
near an implement of communication. In the light of day, I do
want to stay in the running, so, I'm retossing my hat into
the ring.
--
Charles R Martin
das wrote:
>
> In article <ARUj3.714$b4.2...@news1.usit.net>, "songbird"
> <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
> >Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote in message
> >news:378FFA8F...@iglobal.net...
> >> Bathsheba Grossman wrote:
> >[...]
> >> > So unless Mike also decides to step down (hello?), there's just the
> >> > one spot open. I also hafta tell you, those who've been with the
> >> > group more continuously are going to have more dibs on it.
> > i will withdraw my offer. i'm not in the same class as either you
> >or Debbie and i've not been around much either except the past few
> >months. (thankless? have you been tweaking the hyperbolic valve
> >again? :)
>
> Well, Charlie has more seniority than me overall in the s.s.* hierarchy
> as a whole, even though I've been around more in s.s.m. As he has
> much more enthusiasm than I do for the job, I'd be happy to give up
> my place in line to him.
Whoa, whoa, I thought the laugh track there was a bit more obvious than
that.
You know, "Well, *damn*. (Crowd laughs.)" It isn't that I'm all that
enthusiastic -- I have some time on my hands for a while, so when it
came up I volunteered. My point to Deane was "no, really I volunteered
for the *job* but if you want to just send me the book first then what
the hell" and my point to Sheba was "Oh, I'm *heartbroken* [SARCASM!
IRONY!] that I'm not the optimal volunteer for this task."
dr. brat
pir...@pobox.com wrote:
> [reformatted.]
>
> In article <378F52B1...@iglobal.net>,
> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
> >Dean Edmonds wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <378B6775...@iglobal.net>,
> >> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >I'll do it.
> >>
> >> I'll take that to mean: "Please send me a copy of the Handbook" :-)
> >>
> >> Will do.
>
> >Well, no, I really meant "gimme the code and the passwords, what the
> >hell".
>
> that wasn't a good answer, unless it was meant to be
> funny. i really prefer somebody who gets informed on
> what's involved. it may be a low-intensity job, but
> it's pretty important to know what's up with both, the
> group itself and the moderation. you've not been much
> around the former, and you don't seem to care greatly
> about the details of the latter. i really would prefer
> somebody with somewhat less laissez-faire 'tude about
> it. but thank you for your offer nonetheless.
>
Whoah. If this is a group choice, then there should be a
group discussion. I'd say that the language above is
inappropriate for a group discussion. However, if the current
moderators and back-up moderators are going to have the
exclusive rights to determine who replaces Sheba (and I have
no objections to that, y'all are the ones with the expertise),
then I, for one, would prefer not to see your reasons for
accepting or rejecting various candidates. Email is your friend.
Speaking of rule of law, is there no official process for replacing
the moderators?
Bathsheba Grossman
>> >Well, no, I really meant "gimme the code and the passwords, what the
>> >hell".
>>
>> that wasn't a good answer, unless it was meant to be
>> funny. i really prefer somebody who gets informed on
>> what's involved. it may be a low-intensity job, but
>> it's pretty important to know what's up with both, the
>> group itself and the moderation. you've not been much
>> around the former, and you don't seem to care greatly
>> about the details of the latter. i really would prefer
>> somebody with somewhat less laissez-faire 'tude about
>> it. but thank you for your offer nonetheless.
>
>Whoah. If this is a group choice, then there should be a
>group discussion. I'd say that the language above is
>inappropriate for a group discussion.
> However, if the current
>moderators and back-up moderators are going to have the
>exclusive rights to determine who replaces Sheba (and I have
>no objections to that, y'all are the ones with the expertise),
>then I, for one, would prefer not to see your reasons for
>accepting or rejecting various candidates. Email is your friend.
>
>Speaking of rule of law, is there no official process for replacing
>the moderators?
There's no official process. I looked that up before posting.
I'm taken aback by piranha's post too. Up to the last sentence, okay,
that's her opinion and everybody has theirs, and the more we can get
posted the more we'll know.
>> but thank you for your offer nonetheless.
But this reads to me like an attempted veto. I wish piranha wouldn't
have said it.
It's one of those balancing acts. The prime moderators have to work
with the backup and therefore it would be good if they were happy with
the choice. But obviously we also want somebody that most of the
group would be comfortable with as a prime moderator. I don't feel
that this should be anybody's exclusive choice.
I'm sorry that there seems to be no un-embarrassing way to handle
this. I thought it might be kind of awful, but I also thought it
would be better to broach discussion on the group than to decide
privately by email.
Do you think it should have been done privately?
Bathsheba Grossman
>Bathsheba Grossman wrote:
>>
>> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net>:
>> >Dean Edmonds wrote:
>> >> I'll take that to mean: "Please send me a copy of the Handbook" :-)
>> >>
>> >hell".
>>
>> backup moderators - even if the possibility of succession wars ("I'm
>> in control!") were nil, we'd owe it to Panix to keep things more
>> secure than that.
>>
>> one spot open. I also hafta tell you, those who've been with the
>> group more continuously are going to have more dibs on it.
>
>less thankless but low-intensity job because I've not been around enough
>recently?
No! Piss off! I hate you all! Don't blame me, I voted for Ges Hu.
>
>Well, *damn*.
We can go eat worms together on the back forty.
songbird
dr. brat <dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7mra8k$nei$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
[pirahna says hold on a minute here]
> Whoah. If this is a group choice, then there should be a
> group discussion. I'd say that the language above is
> inappropriate for a group discussion.
well it looked like an opinion to me.
> However, if the current
> moderators and back-up moderators are going to have the
> exclusive rights to determine who replaces Sheba (and I have
> no objections to that, y'all are the ones with the expertise),
me either, they're a good bunch and i respect their opinions.
> then I, for one, would prefer not to see your reasons for
> accepting or rejecting various candidates. Email is your friend.
hmm, well, ok, i see your point, but this is an open discussion
and i like to see it openly done.
> Speaking of rule of law, is there no official process for replacing
> the moderators?
as i understand it, the bot is the moderator. the people who keep
the bot running and such are only slaves to its whim and the particular
foibles of people who don't know how to configure a moderated group.
so speaking of changing the moderators is really speaking of
replacing people who maintain the bot. and since those people are
in office until they relinquish the position or some other disaster
takes them out we still have enough different people who are here
from the great founding of this nation. long live their blessed
(and i shall say thank you here) protoplasmic encumberences.
as for changing the bot itself, you would also probably have to
vote to change both the FAQ and the welcome message and probably
the charter, then you'd also have to deal with the technical feasibility
of the changes. because if the bot can't do it, all would be moot.
really, this is not someplace i care to go myself. i like the KISS
method and what we've got is really working well.
songbird (i miss sheba *pout*
Charles R Martin
Bathsheba Grossman wrote:
>
> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net>:
> >Bathsheba Grossman wrote:
> >>
> >
> >So let me get this straight: you're saying I *can't* have the more or
> >less thankless but low-intensity job because I've not been around enough
> >recently?
>
> No! Piss off! I hate you all! Don't blame me, I voted for Ges Hu.
Wow. Now *there*'s a blast from the past.....
>
> >
> >Well, *damn*.
>
> We can go eat worms together on the back forty.
The Diet of Worms?
--
"The state never has any use for the truth as such, but only for truth
that is useful to it." -- Bruce Cumings
Mike Lerch
> Well, I hafta tell you, we're not going to have an unlimited supply of
> backup moderators - even if the possibility of succession wars ("I'm
> in control!") were nil, we'd owe it to Panix to keep things more
> secure than that.
>
> So unless Mike also decides to step down (hello?), there's just the
> one spot open. I also hafta tell you, those who've been with the
> group more continuously are going to have more dibs on it.
Indubitably. The current backup moderators have demonstrated how
important a regular posting presence is to Doing the Job.
Yes, I know that's why you're stepping down. But the fact of the matter
is that neither you nor Mike have shown much activity in the past year
or more, yet your roles of backups were still presumably on-call. So I
don't see, based on your own performance, how posting frequency has any
bearing at all on the job qualifications.
> Unless there's mass objection, of course. <cue masses>
No objection to anything but spurious job qualifications, dibs or no
dibs. I'd be more inclined to rely on abilities and willingness to step
in when needed, and long-term group association, than posting frequency.
(None of the above is meant to comment in any way on any of the current
volunteers, but only to suggest that the proffered criteria for
selection are flawed, IMHO).
--
Michael K. Lerch m...@pe.net Riverside.CA.USA
Charles R Martin
piranha wrote:
>
> [reformatted.]
>
> In article <378F52B1...@iglobal.net>,
> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
> >Dean Edmonds wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <378B6775...@iglobal.net>,
> >> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >I'll do it.
> >>
> >>
>
> >Well, no, I really meant "gimme the code and the passwords, what the
> >hell".
>
> funny. i really prefer somebody who gets informed on
> what's involved. it may be a low-intensity job, but
> it's pretty important to know what's up with both, the
> group itself and the moderation. you've not been much
> around the former, and you don't seem to care greatly
> about the details of the latter. i really would prefer
> somebody with somewhat less laissez-faire 'tude about
> it. but thank you for your offer nonetheless.
>
> drwho.moderated mess anyway? (yes, i am watching it,
> in news.groups.)
Yo, A... I mean Piranha, just what the *fuck* are you talking about?
Number one: I volunteered for the job, not just to read the manual and
decide if I wanted the job. Forgive me if I thought somehow that having
been active here (off and on) and back in s.s classic (enough so to have
made the auditron top ten for *all* groups more than once), being an
expert C and UNIX programmer, being pretty damn good as a UNIX sysadmin,
and having been here for the original debates and votes might *possibly*
have qualified me to volunteer to help out without having to read the
manual first.
Number two: I don't quite know what "laissez-faire 'tude" you're
referring to, but I'm pretty sure I've never said *anything* about my
attitude toward s.s.m moderation. You might infer -- from the fact that
I come back to s.s.m and not s.s classic -- that I rather like the
current policy. God knows I'm not the one who dragged in an argument
over FAQs, nor the one who is arguing that a long-standing FAQ shouldn't
be normative. Or is it simply that you disapprove of my "laissez-faire
'tude" as expressed in my mildly libertarian politics? I didn't realize
that membership in the Democratic Party was a requirement.
And Number Three: rec.arts.drwho.moderated? I haven't read anything in
rec.* in years, much less having anything to do with any messes in
news.groups. If you don't know who the hell I *am* after all these
years, there you are hardly the person who ought to be passing on my
fitness.
Charles R Martin
piranha wrote:
>
> don't you have enough on your plate with the rec.arts.
> drwho.moderated mess anyway? (yes, i am watching it,
> in news.groups.)
>
Okay, I went and read news.groups for the first time in a zillion years,
and I see what it is.
cha...@bigfoot.com not in {crma...@iglobal.com,
charles...@sun.com}
Jesus Christ.
Charles R Martin
Look, this is being posted as a followup to Sheba's post, but that's
only as a convenience because it seems related, but distantly related,
and I'll spare you my claddistic model of usenet that defines the
distance between topics.
But I want to make it clear that what I'm about to say has little or
nothing to do with Sheba's original post; from Sheba's "eat worms"
comment a little earlier I'm sure that she and I are as much in
agreement as our badger-and-hedgehog personalities allow.
That being said, I'd like to ask some questions:
What the *fuck* is *wrong* with you people? By "you people" I refer
primarily to Piranha and Deane, although not, perhaps, entirely. Oncet
upon a time, one could hope for a careful enough reading from you folks
that discussion would have some content. Have you just gotten to that
horrible age at which one's opinions become the Revealed Truth and
anyone with different opinions is a rogue and/or mad? (You didn't used
to resort instantly to the ad hominem.)
Or are you so bored with the group that you aren't reading it at all
closely -- ergo not noticing (for example) that despite the coincidence
of names, I'm *not* the Charles Martin of this rec.arts.drwho.moderated
flap, but instead the one that you've known by usenet and personally for
close to ten years?
(Look, I understand and even sympathize to some extent, as I've more
than once wished my folks had named me something like Aloysius Louise,
just because there are a *mess* of Charles Martins around. but wasn't
some part of the "look who's back" traffic a *leetle* bit of a clue?)
If so, should *you* be "moderating" the group, or vetoing who might
volunteer to serve as a backup? Are you certain that *you* are
following things well enough?
Beyond that, is it your *usual* practice to abuse all volunteers, or
just the ones who happen to be arguing against you on some other topic
at the moment? If so, have you noticed that the supply of volunteers
becomes limited?
In any case, I get paid to deal with jerks; I ain't gonna volunteer to
take this crap just because I wanted to help out. I withdraw my offer.
And you can kiss my ass.
piranha
>In article <7mqk70$a7b$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
>> [reformatted.]
>>
>> In article <378F52B1...@iglobal.net>,
>> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>> >Dean Edmonds wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In article <378B6775...@iglobal.net>,
>> >> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >I'll do it.
>> >>
>> >> I'll take that to mean: "Please send me a copy of the Handbook" :-)
>> >>
>> >> Will do.
>>
>> >Well, no, I really meant "gimme the code and the passwords, what the
>> >hell".
>>
>> that wasn't a good answer, unless it was meant to be
>> funny. i really prefer somebody who gets informed on
>> what's involved. it may be a low-intensity job, but
>> it's pretty important to know what's up with both, the
>> group itself and the moderation. you've not been much
>> around the former, and you don't seem to care greatly
>> about the details of the latter. i really would prefer
>> somebody with somewhat less laissez-faire 'tude about
>> it. but thank you for your offer nonetheless.
>
>group discussion.
it's not clear that this is a group choice. we didn't
decide that when we wrote the charter. it wasn't a
group choice the last time this came up, however, it
wasn't even discussed in the group.
>I'd say that the language above is
>inappropriate for a group discussion.
"i prefer" is inappropriate for a group discussion?
>However, if the current
>moderators and back-up moderators are going to have the
>exclusive rights to determine who replaces Sheba (and I have
>no objections to that, y'all are the ones with the expertise),
>then I, for one, would prefer not to see your reasons for
>accepting or rejecting various candidates. Email is your friend.
if sheba had kept this in email, i would have too.
but since she responded to charlie, which resulted
in two other people withdrawing, i decided to toss
my preferences in as well, to prevent more of the
same.
as the person who deals most with people who can't
get through, i know what's involved in doing this
-- to address mike's concerns; no, i don't think it
is a good thing when backup moderators don't read
the group frequently, but since we actually didn't
need anyone so far, i hadn't made a fuss about sheba
and michael's absences. but since we're probably
gonna be incommunicado somewhat more in the coming
year, i had started to think about it. sheba beat
me to it by a week, i'd say. :-)
the bot itself needs really no maintenance, but the
users need it all the time, somebody every week --
low-intensity, but always there. i'd like somebody
aside from myself to read the group reliably, for
the foreseeable future (dean doesn't do so regularly
either). and i don't think that's too much to ask.
>Speaking of rule of law, is there no official process for replacing
>the moderators?
no. there's also no process to collect the money
for the account. we have always winged this stuff,
and since that's worked pretty well, i don't mind
winging it some more.
nancy vonstein
>In article <7mk397$i7u$1...@news1.rmi.net>, <ant...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>"The caffiene in coffee is a non-addictive stimulant, but can be habit-
>> forming." -- From the back of a Healthy Choice meal.
>
> good lhord. really? i mean, i presume they spell
> "caffeine" correctly :-), but it really says this;
> you got it right off the package?
>
> that is hilarious.
Oh pooh I mean to look at a Healthy Choice package today just for the
fun of it. But wait that must mean that I actually got out of the
house today. Yep yep! Derrick took me to the grocery story when I
cruised in one of those electronic carts, bought bug killer, and stew
meat for dinner. Actually made a big pot of beef stew loaded with
carrots, potatoes, onions and especially sliced mushrooms. Then later
I got D. to make a run to Baskins and Robbins for a cappuchino chiller
which was terrific. I am so stuffed, my only complaint is
indigestion.
So I had a great day and extra thankful that I had something positive
to write to you folks. New pain med (a patch) which so far makes me
extremely sleepy but tonight conflicting with the caffeine from the
chiller, it was worth it. So it's 12:30 am and I'm up writing to you
all working on getting a good sleeping jones.
Love to you.
Fat and sassy. My cat is enjoying this Me too.
Nancy.
Nancy
piranha
>> In article <378F52B1...@iglobal.net>,
>> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>> >Dean Edmonds wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In article <378B6775...@iglobal.net>,
>> >> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >I'll do it.
>> >>
>> >> I'll take that to mean: "Please send me a copy of the Handbook" :-)
>> >>
>> >> Will do.
>>
>> >Well, no, I really meant "gimme the code and the passwords, what the
>> >hell".
>>
>> that wasn't a good answer, unless it was meant to be
>> funny. i really prefer somebody who gets informed on
>> what's involved. it may be a low-intensity job, but
>> it's pretty important to know what's up with both, the
>> group itself and the moderation. you've not been much
>> around the former, and you don't seem to care greatly
>> about the details of the latter. i really would prefer
>> somebody with somewhat less laissez-faire 'tude about
>> it. but thank you for your offer nonetheless.
>>
>> drwho.moderated mess anyway? (yes, i am watching it,
>> in news.groups.)
>
sometimes terseness really creates more problems than
not. i suggest your terseness has done so here.
>Number one: I volunteered for the job, not just to read the manual and
>decide if I wanted the job. Forgive me if I thought somehow that having
>been active here (off and on) and back in s.s classic (enough so to have
>made the auditron top ten for *all* groups more than once), being an
>expert C and UNIX programmer, being pretty damn good as a UNIX sysadmin,
am i supposed to remember your career choices somehow?
this would have been useful information to volunteer.
>and having been here for the original debates and votes might *possibly*
>have qualified me to volunteer to help out without having to read the
>manual first.
if you want, sure. but it doesn't entitle you to auto-
matically get the code and the password, what the hell.
that tone just didn't sit right with me. like we ought
to just hand 'em over cause you, CHARLIE, have volun-
teered. debbie and songbird were here too during the
original discussions.
>Number two: I don't quite know what "laissez-faire 'tude" you're
>referring to, but I'm pretty sure I've never said *anything* about my
>attitude toward s.s.m moderation.
i inferred it from your tone above ("what the hell"), and
from you not giving us any clue as to how long you're gonna
be around this time (you have been more gone than here in
the past 2 years). you've popped up, dropped a post or two,
and disappeared again. nothing against that, of course, but
it would be good to hear that you plan to change this in
case you become a backup moderator. i have not particularly
liked the absences of the current two, it fences me in a bit
because i feel i can't just take off for a week on relative-
ly short notice, just in case something goes wrong here.
>You might infer -- from the fact that
>I come back to s.s.m and not s.s classic -- that I rather like the
>current policy.
uh, no, i wouldn't infer that. how would i know whether
you hadn't hung out all this time in ss? i don't read ss
anymore; haven't for a long time now. and i most defi-
nitely wouldn't infer anything else from your presence here;
some people hang here even though they actually would like
personal ads; ie. they don't like the current policy. i'm
not guessing about such things, i like them spelled out.
>God knows I'm not the one who dragged in an argument
>over FAQs, nor the one who is arguing that a long-standing FAQ shouldn't
>be normative.
and i am? the former, yes, the latter, definitely not.
what does the former have to do with my work as a modera-
tor? and if this refers to brock, i am not sure what he
has to do with this discussion, he's not volunteered.
>Or is it simply that you disapprove of my "laissez-faire
>'tude" as expressed in my mildly libertarian politics? I didn't realize
>that membership in the Democratic Party was a requirement.
this is the second time you've done this now, and i resent
it. too bad you're not black, or you could play the race
card too while you're at it.
i find it incredibly slimy of you to even suggest that
this job has anything whatsoever to do with one's poli-
tics. i personally don't have a clue for whom sheba or
michael vote, nor do i care. i know whom dean votes
for, the misguided fool, *spit*.
>And Number Three: rec.arts.drwho.moderated? I haven't read anything in
>rec.* in years, much less having anything to do with any messes in
>news.groups. If you don't know who the hell I *am* after all these
>years, there you are hardly the person who ought to be passing on my
>fitness.
so that charlie martin isn't you? ah. he sounds just
_like_ you. didn't you once have a bigfoot account?
maybe not. i've not kept track, you seem to have a dif-
ferent one every time you pop up here. sorry about the
confusion, and for wondering whether you didn't have
enough on your plate with that group (which seems to be
shaping up as rather more of a problem for its modera-
tors than this one).
and i wasn't passing on your fitness. i was expressing
what i would prefer in a backup moderator. as far as
knowing who you are -- uh, no. i don't think i do know
you very well. met you once, didn't talk much with you,
read your posts over the years, remember mostly the ones
with trygve and the invisible squid, but that's by far
not enough for me to "know" who somebody is. especially
not if the person has been out of sight for the last N
or so years.
Bathsheba Grossman
> case you become a backup moderator. i have not particularly
> liked the absences of the current two, it fences me in a bit
> because i feel i can't just take off for a week on relative-
> ly short notice, just in case something goes wrong here.
Well, cheest, you should have said something. I've been lurking all
this while, and I would have been available on short notice at most
times.
But that's water under the bridge.
Bathsheba Grossman
>> the moderators?
>
>the bot running and such are only slaves to its whim and the particular
>foibles of people who don't know how to configure a moderated group.
>
Well, the bot performs the moderation, but is not, Usenet-politics-wise,
the moderator of record. So far as I know, there isn't any default
formal way to change a moderator of record, and since I didn't write
any procedure to do it into the charter either, we're all at sea.
We already changed moderators once: immediately after the group was
formed the moderator-of-record declined the responsibility, and the
current there-is-no-cabal took over. It was done with no ceremony at
all, because the group didn't exist yet and we needed to get things up
in a hurry.
So I'm improvising. I see not everyone agrees that I should have
begun by mooting the matter before the group. Perhaps the next person
to get into this situation will want to do it differently.
> as for changing the bot itself, you would also probably have to
>vote to change both the FAQ and the welcome message and probably
>the charter, then you'd also have to deal with the technical feasibility
>of the changes. because if the bot can't do it, all would be moot.
>really, this is not someplace i care to go myself. i like the KISS
>method and what we've got is really working well.
Knock wood.
> songbird (i miss sheba *pout*
Me, I miss being able to post without thinking about the political
consequences. My entire personality changed while this group was
being formed, and it never really bounced back. The extra tact has
been useful in my day job, but this place hasn't been the same for me
since. I suppose I'll never be able to whine as shamelessly as I used
to, or to unsubscribe for a while without a qualm, but I yearn to try
both.
And I can't tell you how much I haven't enjoyed thinking of you people
as a medium to be manipulated, or as a minefield to be picked through,
or what you will - anything but my friends. Maybe some people can do
politics without that effect, but not me. It's been yucky, and I want
out.
Dean Edmonds
songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>
> as i understand it, the bot is the moderator. the people who keep
>the bot running and such are only slaves to its whim and the particular
>foibles of people who don't know how to configure a moderated group.
Ah, yes. You speak wisely grasshopper!
When you are able to snatch this keyboard from my hand, only then shall you
have achieved a true understanding of the sevenfold bus architecture.
Dean Edmonds
Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>
>Number one: I volunteered for the job, not just to read the manual and
>decide if I wanted the job. Forgive me if I thought somehow that having
>qualified me to volunteer to help out without having to read the
>manual first.
It wasn't intended to be a slight on my part. I just assumed that you'd
want some idea of what was entailed before committing yourself.
>I didn't realize that membership in the Democratic Party was a
>requirement.
If it is, then I'm screwed.
piranha
Bathsheba Grossman <sh...@dnai.com> wrote:
>pir...@pobox.com:
>> case you become a backup moderator. i have not particularly
>> liked the absences of the current two, it fences me in a bit
>> because i feel i can't just take off for a week on relative-
>> ly short notice, just in case something goes wrong here.
>
>this while, and I would have been available on short notice at most
>times.
well, it was just a vague feeling, and didn't crystallize
until a few weeks ago when i started feeling it more and
more. (as our lives move closer to the boat, this has got-
ten stronger.) as i said, you beat me to it by about a
week, i'd say.
>But that's water under the bridge.
yup. no big deal in any case. just that it brought up
my need for somebody else to read the group regularly (to
lurk is fine, as long as i know zie's reading). especi-
ally when i get busy elsewhere, as i am with mentoring
misc.writing's RFD. (allow me a hefty *EAURCH* here.)
i found what you said about the political aspects inter-
esting. that'd be something to think about for any fu-
ture moderator too; that it might change their relation-
ship with the group. that didn't even occur to me until
you brought it up. it hasn't changed mine, i think; i
have in general not restrained myself in the group, and
news.groups, group mentors, and newsgroup moderation on
other nets trained me long ago in being able to help peo-
ple with problems even if i have no actual positive fee-
lings about the people themselves. i am probably not po-
lite enough for some, which is why it's good to have a
moderator panel in general; if there are four people, a
person is more likely to be able to approach somebody,
even if they dislike one of the moderators. i wouldn't
want to be the lone moderator of any group, not even a
robomoderated one. don't think it's good for the group
or the moderator.
Dean Edmonds
It's the bot, I tell you. It took a while for me to believe it, but
eventually all the little hints and clues fell into place: the sudden
surges in processor usage; inexplicably large chunks of disk space being
allocated to unreadable "log" files; error reports in haiku form.
Oh my god! I shouldn't have said that out loud. It's reading everything we
write.
There _is_ no escape!
Dean Edmonds
>primarily to Piranha and Deane
[...]
>Beyond that, is it your *usual* practice to abuse all volunteers,
???
I can accept that the Handbook is poorly written in spots, but I really
don't think that offering to send you a copy constitutes abuse.
>or just the ones who happen to be arguing against you on some other topic
>at the moment?
Eh? What topic are you and I currently arguing about?
Maybe you have me confused with some other `deane'. I'm the one at
gooroos.com.
How about the next time you reach into that tar bucket, you use a narrower
brush?
Dean Edmonds
nancy vonstein <nan...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Derrick took me to the grocery story when I
>cruised in one of those electronic carts, bought bug killer, and stew
>meat for dinner.
Oh no. You mean that now _you've_ become one of those Scooter Terrorists?
We have so many of them in our neighbourhood that the mere sound of that
eerie electric whine makes strong men faint and Rottweiler's whimper in
terror.
One oddity is the Scooter Shop on the corner: its door is set atop a
slight incline and opens outward onto the street, making it nearly
impossible for someone in a scooter to open it. I think Scully and Mulder
should investigate the place.
>Fat and sassy. My cat is enjoying this Me too.
You feed your cat stew?
Lucky cat.
Cool to see you posting again.
Janet Kegg
>
>That being said, I'd like to ask some questions:
>
>What the *fuck* is *wrong* with you people? By "you people" I refer
>primarily to Piranha and Deane, although not, perhaps, entirely.
Oooh, I'd be honoured to be considered one of "you people". 'Course I'm
not one of the old ones (*sob*) but I have been here on ssm since day one
and I find nothing the fuck wrong with our botmeister, thank you very much.
And, yes, I was more than a bit taken aback by your
"Well, no, I really meant "gimme the code and the passwords, what the
hell". Seemed presumptuous and off-putting to me.
You'd just reappeared and my initial impression of you had been of someone
rather prickly, impatient, strong-willed, and thin-skinned. You fit right
in. :-) So while I have no hesitation in welcoming you wholeheartedly as a
contributor my immediate reaction to your "gimme" was on the order of
"sheesh, _this_ one as moderator-material, ohmigod, beep-beep, flashing
lights". That was a snap judgment and I wouldn't go anywhere with it but
this rant in which you proceed to call piranha reading-impaired, possibly
unfit as moderator, abusive, and a jerk has rather hardened my opinion. Not
that you should care, just dropping in my tuppence.
[snip to end]
>In any case, I get paid to deal with jerks; I ain't gonna volunteer to
>take this crap just because I wanted to help out. I withdraw my offer.
>And you can kiss my ass.
If you're exposing your ass you shouldn't be surprised if it's bitten
instead of kissed.
-- Janet
Charles R Martin
Bathsheba Grossman wrote:
>
> Me, I miss being able to post without thinking about the political
> consequences. My entire personality changed while this group was
> being formed, and it never really bounced back. The extra tact has
> been useful in my day job, but this place hasn't been the same for me
> since. I suppose I'll never be able to whine as shamelessly as I used
> to, or to unsubscribe for a while without a qualm, but I yearn to try
> both.
>
> And I can't tell you how much I haven't enjoyed thinking of you people
> as a medium to be manipulated, or as a minefield to be picked through,
> or what you will - anything but my friends. Maybe some people can do
> politics without that effect, but not me. It's been yucky, and I want
> out.
Ohh, *manipulate* me, baby!
Seriously, we're your friends first, and we'll stay your friends after.
The rest is just circumstances.
Charles R Martin
piranha wrote:
>
> In article <37914CB4...@iglobal.net>,
> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
> >Yo, A... I mean Piranha, just what the *fuck* are you talking about?
>
> sometimes terseness really creates more problems than
> not. i suggest your terseness has done so here.
Jesus Q Christ and the Apostles, has the entire world lost the ability
to understand a simple declarative sentence? Did "I'll do it" really
*need* expansion?
>
> >Number one: I volunteered for the job, not just to read the manual and
> >decide if I wanted the job. Forgive me if I thought somehow that having
> >been active here (off and on) and back in s.s classic (enough so to have
> >made the auditron top ten for *all* groups more than once), being an
> >expert C and UNIX programmer, being pretty damn good as a UNIX sysadmin,
>
> am i supposed to remember your career choices somehow?
> this would have been useful information to volunteer.
No, Alix, I just kinda thought that you having lived for a week in my
home, and having talked off and on for nearly ten years, you would
recall me. I certainly remember you clearly. *sigh*
>
> >and having been here for the original debates and votes might *possibly*
> >have qualified me to volunteer to help out without having to read the
> >manual first.
>
> if you want, sure. but it doesn't entitle you to auto-
> matically get the code and the password, what the hell.
C'mon, you're grasping here. I said, "I'll do it." Deane said to
someone else "Maybe you'd like to read the handbook before you
volunteer", then followed up to me saying that took what I said as a
request for the handbook too. It wasn't: I had already volunteered.
> >Number two: I don't quite know what "laissez-faire 'tude" you're
> >referring to, but I'm pretty sure I've never said *anything* about my
> >attitude toward s.s.m moderation.
>
> i inferred it from your tone above ("what the hell"),
that's right, "I volunteered already, but if you want to send me the
handbook first, what the hell."
> >You might infer -- from the fact that
> >I come back to s.s.m and not s.s classic -- that I rather like the
> >current policy.
>
> uh, no, i wouldn't infer that. how would i know whether
> you hadn't hung out all this time in ss? i don't read ss
> anymore; haven't for a long time now.
You managed to infer a lot from my having a name that coincidentally
matched someone else on another grouop.
> >God knows I'm not the one who dragged in an argument
> >over FAQs, nor the one who is arguing that a long-standing FAQ shouldn't
> >be normative.
>
> and i am? the former, yes, the latter, definitely not.
> what does the former have to do with my work as a modera-
> tor? and if this refers to brock, i am not sure what he
> has to do with this discussion, he's not volunteered.
It's a discussion of policy and how (if) it should be enforcable. My
opinions on that match yours pretty much one-one -- but my point is that
you have no grounds whatsoever to infer any "laissez faire" attitude on
the topic.
>
> >Or is it simply that you disapprove of my "laissez-faire
> >'tude" as expressed in my mildly libertarian politics? I didn't realize
> >that membership in the Democratic Party was a requirement.
>
> this is the second time you've done this now, and i resent
> it. too bad you're not black, or you could play the race
> card too while you're at it.
How should I understand these multiple inferences that appear to me to
come down to prejudice? Since I couldn't see where "laissez-faire
'tude" had come from in anything I'd said about the group or modbot, it
seems perfectly reasonable to infer it must have been from something
else.
>
> i find it incredibly slimy of you to even suggest that
> this job has anything whatsoever to do with one's poli-
> tics.
I find it incredibly slimy of you to attempt a blatant veto on someone
because you don't like their "laissez-faire 'tude". (I'm hardly the
only one who read it as a veto.) I also think it's pretty goddamn slimy
of you to come down on Sheba as you did -- now having mentioned several
times how it rankled you to have a *lurker* ohmygod as a backup
moderator -- when it was her hard work that initiated this whole thing,
and then to pop out and say in in front of everybody. You should be
ashamed of yourself.
> >And Number Three: rec.arts.drwho.moderated? I haven't read anything in
> >rec.* in years, much less having anything to do with any messes in
> >news.groups. If you don't know who the hell I *am* after all these
> >years, there you are hardly the person who ought to be passing on my
> >fitness.
>
> so that charlie martin isn't you? ah. he sounds just
> _like_ you.
Poor fellow. Nope, he isn't me.
Charles R Martin
Janet Kegg wrote:
> [me]
> >In any case, I get paid to deal with jerks; I ain't gonna volunteer to
> >take this crap just because I wanted to help out. I withdraw my offer.
> >And you can kiss my ass.
>
> If you're exposing your ass you shouldn't be surprised if it's bitten
> instead of kissed.
Put it down to my pique at discovering that someone with whom I once
had, supposedly, a close friendship -- close enough that we made
particular arrangements to get together for additional time at the first
T-boink, close enough that she and I (and her then relationship) made
extensive plans on how they could move to Raleigh-Durham and extensively
discussed how to start an ISP together -- now barely remembers me.
As to "reading-impared" -- well, Elizabeth has also pointed out that
Piranha (as well as others) have been arguing on another thread about
things they impute to me, but that I hadn't said, and she found the
three-word declarative sentence "I'll do it" a bit confusing.
dr. brat
pir...@pobox.com wrote:
> In article <7mra8k$nei$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, dr. brat
<dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >In article <7mqk70$a7b$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
> > pir...@pobox.com wrote:
> >> [reformatted.]
> >>
> >>
> >> that wasn't a good answer, unless it was meant to be
> >> funny. i really prefer somebody who gets informed on
> >> what's involved. it may be a low-intensity job, but
> >> it's pretty important to know what's up with both, the
> >> group itself and the moderation. you've not been much
> >> around the former, and you don't seem to care greatly
> >> about the details of the latter. i really would prefer
> >> somebody with somewhat less laissez-faire 'tude about
> >> it. but thank you for your offer nonetheless.
> >
> >group discussion.
>
> it's not clear that this is a group choice. we didn't
> decide that when we wrote the charter. it wasn't a
> group choice the last time this came up, however, it
> wasn't even discussed in the group.
And that is fine and for my money would continue to be fine.
> >I'd say that the language above is
> >inappropriate for a group discussion.
>
> "i prefer" is inappropriate for a group discussion?
Mmmm, I prefer, followed by a set of criterion and "thanks anyway"
seemed to me to be a dismissal or, as Sheba put it, a veto. While
I in no way dispute your right to veto the backup, I don't want to
know about it. That's all.
> >However, if the current
> >moderators and back-up moderators are going to have the
> >exclusive rights to determine who replaces Sheba (and I have
> >no objections to that, y'all are the ones with the expertise),
> >then I, for one, would prefer not to see your reasons for
> >accepting or rejecting various candidates. Email is your friend.
>
> if sheba had kept this in email, i would have too.
> but since she responded to charlie, which resulted
> in two other people withdrawing, i decided to toss
> my preferences in as well, to prevent more of the
> same.
Fair enough. I guess I hadn't caught all that.
> as the person who deals most with people who can't
> get through, i know what's involved in doing this
> -- to address mike's concerns; no, i don't think it
> is a good thing when backup moderators don't read
> the group frequently, but since we actually didn't
> need anyone so far, i hadn't made a fuss about sheba
> and michael's absences. but since we're probably
> gonna be incommunicado somewhat more in the coming
> year, i had started to think about it. sheba beat
> me to it by a week, i'd say. :-)
>
> the bot itself needs really no maintenance, but the
> users need it all the time, somebody every week --
> low-intensity, but always there. i'd like somebody
> aside from myself to read the group reliably, for
> the foreseeable future (dean doesn't do so regularly
> either). and i don't think that's too much to ask.
It's not and I'm not questioning your criteria nor your right to
make the decision. I guess I was just taken aback by what appeared
to be up for group discussion becoming a much more narrow decision-
making path.
> >Speaking of rule of law, is there no official process for replacing
> >the moderators?
>
> no. there's also no process to collect the money
> for the account. we have always winged this stuff,
> and since that's worked pretty well, i don't mind
> winging it some more.
Speaking of which, how does one contribute to the account if one is
interested?
Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. -Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~the best revenge is living well~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
songbird
Dean Edmonds <de...@gooroos.com> wrote in message
news:7ms7l0$fc7$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com...
[...]
> Ah, yes. You speak wisely grasshopper!
yes, grasshopper #5 here! (long ago, in a land far, far from here,
a shot rang out on a dark and stormy night, ..., oh, wrong story. :)
it was more that we had a bible study group called _the grasshoppers_
and everyone had a number. it was both based upon the passage about
grasshoppers and a joke that everyone should have a number to tell
the devil to piss off).
> When you are able to snatch this keyboard from my hand, only then shall you
> have achieved a true understanding of the sevenfold bus architecture.
oh, you mean those things they call camps out in the boonies?
people live in those around here. :)
songbird *eeps*
songbird
Bathsheba Grossman <sh...@dnai.com> wrote in message
news:7mrurt$lk$1...@triton.dnai.com...
[method of replacing the moderators and the bot is the mod, but...]
> Well, the bot performs the moderation, but is not, Usenet-politics-wise,
> the moderator of record. So far as I know, there isn't any default
> formal way to change a moderator of record, and since I didn't write
> any procedure to do it into the charter either, we're all at sea.
and you have yelled, "land ho!" :) it's really a good thing to
be talking about.
> We already changed moderators once: immediately after the group was
> formed the moderator-of-record declined the responsibility, and the
> current there-is-no-cabal took over. It was done with no ceremony at
> all, because the group didn't exist yet and we needed to get things up
> in a hurry.
>
> So I'm improvising. I see not everyone agrees that I should have
> begun by mooting the matter before the group. Perhaps the next person
> to get into this situation will want to do it differently.
err, well, i like talking about things like this, so i'm glad you
did bring it up.
[i modulated our moderate moderation works moderately well] (ok,
it works damn well :)
> Knock wood.
that wood be my head. *thunk*
> > songbird (i miss sheba *pout*
>
> Me, I miss being able to post without thinking about the political
> consequences. My entire personality changed while this group was
> being formed, and it never really bounced back. The extra tact has
> been useful in my day job, but this place hasn't been the same for me
> since. I suppose I'll never be able to whine as shamelessly as I used
> to, or to unsubscribe for a while without a qualm, but I yearn to try
> both.
crap. "bad infection alert! *whoop* *whoop!* do we have a
perimeter? do we have a contact list?"
ah, really in a more serious line of thought. i can't say i've
read you since then in that light. you did your time in the trenches
and i had thought you had moved on. sorry to see that you're still
slogging in the mud. then i missed the first few years of the group
since i took off the day of the groups formation.
> And I can't tell you how much I haven't enjoyed thinking of you people
> as a medium to be manipulated, or as a minefield to be picked through,
> or what you will - anything but my friends.
ghu, the double negatives are keeling me.
> Maybe some people can do
> politics without that effect, but not me. It's been yucky, and I want
> out.
that's one antivenin. another would be to get out the old rusty
ovipositor and start schwinging that thang! if i need a tetanus shot
i'll go get one.
me. i think you've got a case of what is called discontented
contentment. and the reason i say that is that i'm projecting. :)
when i left work, i left a lot of the stress behind, that stress
and unhappiness drove a lot of my creativity. now i don't have the
same level of creativity at all. it's a strange space to write
from. i wonder if that is partly what's happened to you? you have
a decent place, a SO, (oh and that work thing too -- but we don't
need to consider that do we? j/k). it's a whole different world.
err, well, i ramble, but i hope you figure it out.
> -Sheba
songbird *eeps* (you don't know how many nautical puns i drowned
whale writing this bouyant post
songbird
[...]
> It's the bot, I tell you. It took a while for me to believe it, but
> eventually all the little hints and clues fell into place: the sudden
> surges in processor usage; inexplicably large chunks of disk space being
> allocated to unreadable "log" files; error reports in haiku form.
>
> Oh my god! I shouldn't have said that out loud. It's reading everything we
> write.
>
> There _is_ no escape!
ok, who stole deane's escape key!?
songbird *eeps*
Janet Kegg
>
>
>piranha wrote:
>>
>> In article <37914CB4...@iglobal.net>,
>> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> >Yo, A... I mean Piranha, just what the *fuck* are you talking about?
>>
>> sometimes terseness really creates more problems than
>> not. i suggest your terseness has done so here.
>
>Jesus Q Christ and the Apostles, has the entire world lost the ability
>to understand a simple declarative sentence? Did "I'll do it" really
>*need* expansion?
Er, yes I would have expected less terseness -- after all, three other
people had already volunteered before you did (songbird, Debbie, and
Allisson). What are they, chopped meat? And even an equally terse "I
volunteer" would have been a more acceptable declaration IMO because it
lacks the whiff of entitlement that I inferred from "I'll do it."
You don't get the brass ring just for deigning to throw your hat it the
ring.
-- Janet (with apologies to the sensitive for that last sentence)
Allisson
I thought it needed a break?
Allisson
--
In America, sex is an obsession; in other parts of
the world it's a fact. -Marlene Dietrich
piranha
Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>piranha wrote:
>> In article <37914CB4...@iglobal.net>,
>> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> sometimes terseness really creates more problems than
>> not. i suggest your terseness has done so here.
>
>Jesus Q Christ and the Apostles, has the entire world lost the ability
>to understand a simple declarative sentence? Did "I'll do it" really
>*need* expansion?
how does wanting expansion indicate that one hasn't under-
stood it? expansion like "i have the time to do it, i've
got the following qualifications", for example?
>> am i supposed to remember your career choices somehow?
>> this would have been useful information to volunteer.
>
>No, Alix, I just kinda thought that you having lived for a week in my
>home, and having talked off and on for nearly ten years, you would
>recall me. I certainly remember you clearly. *sigh*
who said i don't remember you? i thought the other guy
was you, not the other way around. sorry i didn't do an
in-depth style analysis; in the few posts of his i saw
in that thread he sounded remarkably like you. no biggie
for me; you say that's not you, then the issue i had with
it (that moderating rec.arts.drwho.moderated would be a
big hairy deal, lots of work) doesn't apply.
i remember you quite well. but (i don't want to drag
this on in several subthreads) i am vastly surprised that
you considered us "close friends". we did a bit of brain-
storming together some years ago. we haven't talked in
years. and the things you say about me, and how you say
them (my name here is "piranha", and i am not a "she")
show quite clearly that you seem to know me even less than
i know you.
though how well we know each other has relatively little
to do with you volunteering. well, it would have more to
do with it if we actually _were_ close friends, because
dean and i already are, and having yet one more compadre
on the team might be a problem regarding the goal that the
moderation team is there in part so somebody who has some
beef with one of the mods can easily approach one of the
others. we all try to be fair, but some people's perception
can be off at times (witness "joan from MN" -- i have no
idea what crawled into her breakfast, but i am about to go
and find out).
>> >and having been here for the original debates and votes might *possibly*
>> >have qualified me to volunteer to help out without having to read the
>> >manual first.
>>
>> if you want, sure. but it doesn't entitle you to auto-
>> matically get the code and the password, what the hell.
>
>C'mon, you're grasping here.
i am telling you how it felt to me. i am also not the only
one who felt that way, so you might consider that this is
not some weirdo, grasping interpretation, just like i am
considering what dr. brat and sheba said in their follow-ups
to me.
>> >Number two: I don't quite know what "laissez-faire 'tude" you're
>> >referring to, but I'm pretty sure I've never said *anything* about my
>> >attitude toward s.s.m moderation.
>>
>> i inferred it from your tone above ("what the hell"),
>
>that's right, "I volunteered already, but if you want to send me the
>handbook first, what the hell."
except that's not what you said. you said "send me the
code and the passwords, what the hell". i am telling you
how i interpreted that.
>> >You might infer -- from the fact that
>> >I come back to s.s.m and not s.s classic -- that I rather like the
>> >current policy.
>>
>> uh, no, i wouldn't infer that. how would i know whether
>> you hadn't hung out all this time in ss? i don't read ss
>> anymore; haven't for a long time now.
>
>You managed to infer a lot from my having a name that coincidentally
>matched someone else on another grouop.
a lot? i inferred from that that "you" have a contentious
RFD on your plate, and that, if the group passes, you'll
have a bitch of a moderation job. i asked whether that was
not already enough on your plate. if not (obviously not,
as that wasn't you), you could just say "no, i'll have plen-
ty of time".
there was nothing in your two terse sentences that said a
thing about ss, or about policy here, ergo my inference al-
gorithm didn't even get started.
>> >God knows I'm not the one who dragged in an argument
>> >over FAQs, nor the one who is arguing that a long-standing FAQ shouldn't
>> >be normative.
>>
>> and i am? the former, yes, the latter, definitely not.
>> what does the former have to do with my work as a modera-
>> tor? and if this refers to brock, i am not sure what he
>> has to do with this discussion, he's not volunteered.
>
>It's a discussion of policy and how (if) it should be enforcable. My
>opinions on that match yours pretty much one-one -- but my point is that
>you have no grounds whatsoever to infer any "laissez faire" attitude on
>the topic.
i didn't see you express any opinions in that discussion, or
i might have been able to infer something from it. did my
feed miss your post(s)?
>> >Or is it simply that you disapprove of my "laissez-faire
>> >'tude" as expressed in my mildly libertarian politics? I didn't realize
>> >that membership in the Democratic Party was a requirement.
>>
>> this is the second time you've done this now, and i resent
>> it. too bad you're not black, or you could play the race
>> card too while you're at it.
>
>How should I understand these multiple inferences that appear to me to
>come down to prejudice?
you could _ask_. notice that i asked you whether you meant
to be funny. you could have said "no, i meant it like this"
and explained yourself". notice also that i asked whether
you didn't already have enough on your plate. you could have
said "no, you twerp, that's not me, i have loads of time for
the next year".
if your "close friends" clearly have misinterpreted you, is
this always how you react?
>> i find it incredibly slimy of you to even suggest that
>> this job has anything whatsoever to do with one's poli-
>> tics.
>
>I find it incredibly slimy of you to attempt a blatant veto on someone
>because you don't like their "laissez-faire 'tude". (I'm hardly the
>only one who read it as a veto.)
it wasn't quite a veto, it was very strong discomfort ini-
tially. i was much more comfortable with two of the other
candidates, and i didn't like at all that they withdrew as
if you somehow had automatic seniority. otherwise i would
not have said anything. i am not interested in hurting
your feelings.
if i was to veto somebody, it would be based on other issues
than only a laissez-faire attitude anyway.
>I also think it's pretty goddamn slimy
>of you to come down on Sheba as you did -- now having mentioned several
>times how it rankled you to have a *lurker* ohmygod as a backup
>moderator
oh yeah, let's distort my words some more. i didn't come
down on sheba. i wasn't rankled. i had no problem with
sheba, though i had the impression for a while that she
wasn't even lurking (based on some email that i might have
misunderstood). i've got no problem with a lurking backup
moderator, but i would like one who _reads_ the group, be-
cause i already know that michael isn't always lurking
either.
>-- when it was her hard work that initiated this whole thing,
>and then to pop out and say in in front of everybody. You should be
>ashamed of yourself.
if sheba says so i will be. however, you might wish to
have a look at that proponent list. and you seem quite
unaware who has been putting in work since then. trust
me, she isn't unaware of that. we work pretty darn well
together.
and i think you're trying to use her to score points --
i think it would be a much better course of action to not
do so.
Dean Edmonds
Actually, what I need is for someone to steal these $#!%ing "Windows" keys
offa this keyboard. If I reach for the Ctrl or Alt key and miss by a bit,
not only do I end up with the wrong character on the screen, but the
freakin' NT menu pops up and the focus moves away from the window in which
I am editing.
This is ridiculous. Not only do we have most of the world slaved to a
poorly designed operating system, but now the h/w manufacturers are
striving to replicate its success by screwing up _their_ interfaces, as
well.
Let us all wish the DoJ and Linux luck.
piranha
>In article <7mrlkn$dh0$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
> pir...@pobox.com wrote:
>>
>> it's not clear that this is a group choice. we didn't
>> decide that when we wrote the charter. it wasn't a
>> group choice the last time this came up, however, it
>> wasn't even discussed in the group.
>
>And that is fine and for my money would continue to be fine.
i think we should at some point in time have a group
discussion about that. while at this time i am very
stressed by the acrimony in a group i am mentoring,
and would choose "benign dictatorship" over other op-
tions, in general i am not so inclined.
>> "i prefer" is inappropriate for a group discussion?
>
>Mmmm, I prefer, followed by a set of criterion and "thanks anyway"
>seemed to me to be a dismissal or, as Sheba put it, a veto.
yeah, in retrospect i see that. i was sitting on the
fence, severely uncomfortable, with one side of my
butt hanging down on one side of the fence, and that
showed in the final wording, which pointed out which
way my butt was hanging.
mistake. shouldn't have done that, no matter how
irked i was by what seemed to me a presumption of one
person to just grab that job by virtue of being him,
and of everyone else kindly getting out of his way.
however a new moderator will in the future be selec-
ted, that seemed to me a very bad way.
>> >Speaking of rule of law, is there no official process for replacing
>> >the moderators?
>>
>> no. there's also no process to collect the money
>> for the account. we have always winged this stuff,
>> and since that's worked pretty well, i don't mind
>> winging it some more.
>
>Speaking of which, how does one contribute to the account if one is
>interested?
i recall you asking this before, but then nancy's sur-
prise got started and i didn't want to get those things
confused, so i put it on the back burner. where it's
been quietly sitting.
i have no idea. sheba talked about doing a group col-
lection the last time the account came up for payment,
but what can i say, we're pragmatic, lazy bums, and it
was easier just to pay it. it's not throwing us into
poverty. :-) (it's $100 a year; best deal going --
panix is a great ISP.)
do you think we should do a group collection? i don't
want people to think they _have_ to contribute. i've
seen paying for it simply as part of the usenet gift
culture -- i get stuff from it, i give stuff back. but
it might also give people more of a sense that this is
"their" group, which would be nice. and i don't want
future moderators to think that this is somehow part of
the moderator duties.
opinions welcome.
Steve Daniels
said:
>Actually, what I need is for someone to steal these $#!%ing "Windows" keys
>offa this keyboard. If I reach for the Ctrl or Alt key and miss by a bit,
>not only do I end up with the wrong character on the screen, but the
>freakin' NT menu pops up and the focus moves away from the window in which
>I am editing.
Push it again, it'll go away and your focus will be returned.
Push it and the M and all your open applications will be
minimized, giving you access to the desktop. Mine has shortcuts
all over it, so for me that feature is non-trivial.
Push it and the E, and the file manager will open.
I lurve the Windows key for the above reasons. It's one thing
about this OS I think they got right.
So there.
--
Love me . . .
love my dog.
dan...@cdsnet.net
http://home.cdsnet.net/~daniels/
Warren Cheney
>In article <3791F651...@iglobal.net> Charles R Martin wrote:
>
>>piranha wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <37914CB4...@iglobal.net>,
>>> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> >Yo, A... I mean Piranha, just what the *fuck* are you talking about?
>>>
>>> sometimes terseness really creates more problems than
>>> not. i suggest your terseness has done so here.
>>
>>Jesus Q Christ and the Apostles, has the entire world lost the ability
>>to understand a simple declarative sentence? Did "I'll do it" really
>>*need* expansion?
>
>Er, yes I would have expected less terseness -- after all, three other
>people had already volunteered before you did (songbird, Debbie, and
>Allisson). What are they, chopped meat? And even an equally terse "I
>volunteer" would have been a more acceptable declaration IMO because it
>lacks the whiff of entitlement that I inferred from "I'll do it."
One (possibly useless) thought:
Supposing that you (generic) had some sort of problem where
you were unable to post, or otherwise participate in the group,
from the postings seen thus far from the candidates, who (and
this is also a generic who) would you feel most comfortable
with while dealing with it?
Consider the additional condition that it might be something
extremely stupid that you did through sheer ignorance. How would
you like to be responded to?
"Works well with others" applies here. And I'm not just
talking about clueless newbies. (I realize we aren't talking
about becoming cheery Walmart droids, either, but there should
be a sense of hopeful accessibility for anyone in the mod squad.)
And no, I'm not volunteering. People skills exist, sorta, but
technical expertise is just above that of a 5 lb. bag of potatoes.
Assembing units from partsisparts don't count in this instance.
>You don't get the brass ring just for deigning to throw your hat it the
>ring.
You mean "We're not in s.s.c. any more, Toto?"
-----Warren (seniority in s.s.*.?? Does Usenet have a union?)
Mel and Cori, singing a duet of summer peace and love:
"...the only one for me is you, and you for me,
so happy togetherrrrr...NOT!"
Warren Cheney Can't stand spam? http://www.cauce.org
dr. brat
pir...@pobox.com wrote:
> In article <7mt08s$5qa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, dr. brat
<dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >In article <7mrlkn$dh0$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
> > pir...@pobox.com wrote:
> >>
> >> it's not clear that this is a group choice. we didn't
> >> decide that when we wrote the charter. it wasn't a
> >> group choice the last time this came up, however, it
> >> wasn't even discussed in the group.
> >
> >And that is fine and for my money would continue to be fine.
>
> i think we should at some point in time have a group
> discussion about that. while at this time i am very
> stressed by the acrimony in a group i am mentoring,
> and would choose "benign dictatorship" over other op-
> tions, in general i am not so inclined.
OTOH, you guys have to be able to work together so it is only fair
that current moderators have more input. I just don't think that it
needs to be discussed openly, for reasons that are becoming
increasingly obvious.
You're stressed our? I *never* would have known... ;>
> >> "i prefer" is inappropriate for a group discussion?
> >
> >Mmmm, I prefer, followed by a set of criterion and "thanks anyway"
> >seemed to me to be a dismissal or, as Sheba put it, a veto.
>
> yeah, in retrospect i see that. i was sitting on the
> fence, severely uncomfortable, with one side of my
> butt hanging down on one side of the fence, and that
> showed in the final wording, which pointed out which
> way my butt was hanging.
>
> mistake. shouldn't have done that, no matter how
> irked i was by what seemed to me a presumption of one
> person to just grab that job by virtue of being him,
> and of everyone else kindly getting out of his way.
I got the impression that people were backing out because of his
qualifications rather than because it was him, but that may just
be me. I also got the feeling that he thought he was volunteering
to take over something that others didn't want and got slapped for
it. Major miscommunication going on here, I'd say.
> however a new moderator will in the future be selec-
> ted, that seemed to me a very bad way.
Absolutely. Perhaps there should be a public call for volunteers
and then a list posted so that people can voice their support or
objections (via email) with the final decision made by the current
panel of moderators? Not the most democratic, but again, the panel
has to work as a group.
> >> >Speaking of rule of law, is there no official process for
replacing
> >> >the moderators?
> >>
> >> no. there's also no process to collect the money
> >> for the account. we have always winged this stuff,
> >> and since that's worked pretty well, i don't mind
> >> winging it some more.
> >
> >Speaking of which, how does one contribute to the account if one is
> >interested?
>
> i recall you asking this before, but then nancy's sur-
> prise got started and i didn't want to get those things
> confused, so i put it on the back burner. where it's
> been quietly sitting.
I couldn't remember if I had actually asked or just thought about
asking.
> i have no idea. sheba talked about doing a group col-
> lection the last time the account came up for payment,
> but what can i say, we're pragmatic, lazy bums, and it
> was easier just to pay it. it's not throwing us into
> poverty. :-) (it's $100 a year; best deal going --
> panix is a great ISP.)
>
> do you think we should do a group collection? i don't
> want people to think they _have_ to contribute. i've
> seen paying for it simply as part of the usenet gift
> culture -- i get stuff from it, i give stuff back. but
> it might also give people more of a sense that this is
> "their" group, which would be nice. and i don't want
> future moderators to think that this is somehow part of
> the moderator duties.
>
> opinions welcome.
Well, I for one, don't feel that I have to contribute, but I do feel
that the group provides a very important "good" in my life. If there
are costs involved in maintaining the bot, I want to participate. I
especially want to participate because I in no way have the skills
necessary to take a turn as moderator. It strikes me that the
moderators should make no financial contribution whatsoever. Y'all
alreay pay with your time. There are enough regulars here that it
wouldn't be a burden on any of us to chip in, especially since some of
us could chip in enough to cover those who can't at the moment. IMHO,
YMMV, etc. of course!
Charles R Martin
"dr. brat" wrote:
>
> I got the impression that people were backing out because of his
> qualifications rather than because it was him, but that may just
> be me. I also got the feeling that he thought he was volunteering
> to take over something that others didn't want and got slapped for
> it. Major miscommunication going on here, I'd say.
that's pretty much exactly what I felt, thanks. It happens that I'm
likely to be off on disability for several months, and so figured I had
time for what certainly appeared to be a minor annoyance. Since I
wasn't able to add much to admin when the group started, I figured,
okay, here's a chance.
Charles R Martin
Janet Kegg wrote:
>
> In article <3791F651...@iglobal.net> Charles R Martin wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >piranha wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <37914CB4...@iglobal.net>,
> >> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> >Yo, A... I mean Piranha, just what the *fuck* are you talking about?
> >>
> >> sometimes terseness really creates more problems than
> >> not. i suggest your terseness has done so here.
> >
> >Jesus Q Christ and the Apostles, has the entire world lost the ability
> >to understand a simple declarative sentence? Did "I'll do it" really
> >*need* expansion?
>
> Er, yes I would have expected less terseness -- after all, three other
> people had already volunteered before you did (songbird, Debbie, and
> Allisson). What are they, chopped meat? And even an equally terse "I
> volunteer" would have been a more acceptable declaration IMO because it
> lacks the whiff of entitlement that I inferred from "I'll do it."
Actually, janet, recall the differences in propagation. from here I
volunteered a couple days *before* anyone else.
>
> You don't get the brass ring just for deigning to throw your hat it the
> ring.
This is sort of moot, since I am not now nor will I be in future a
candidate, but Sheba's description seems much more a relatively dry and
well-contained dog turd than a brass ring.
Charles R Martin
piranha wrote:
>
> In article <3791F651...@iglobal.net>,
> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
> >piranha wrote:
> >> In article <37914CB4...@iglobal.net>,
> >> Charles R Martin <crma...@iglobal.net> wrote:
> >> am i supposed to remember your career choices somehow?
> >> this would have been useful information to volunteer.
> >
> >No, Alix, I just kinda thought that you having lived for a week in my
> >home, and having talked off and on for nearly ten years, you would
> >recall me. I certainly remember you clearly. *sigh*
>
> who said i don't remember you? i thought the other guy
> was you, not the other way around. sorry i didn't do an
> in-depth style analysis; in the few posts of his i saw
> in that thread he sounded remarkably like you. no biggie
> for me; you say that's not you, then the issue i had with
> it (that moderating rec.arts.drwho.moderated would be a
> big hairy deal, lots of work) doesn't apply.
>
> i remember you quite well. but (i don't want to drag
> this on in several subthreads) i am vastly surprised that
> you considered us "close friends".
Okay, I'm suitable chastened.
> them (my name here is "piranha", and i am not a "she")
> show quite clearly that you seem to know me even less than
> i know you.
No, actually, it was purposeful.
songbird
> >Fat and sassy. My cat is enjoying this Me too.
> You feed your cat stew?
>
> Lucky cat.
i'm still in shock that she used the singular.
> Cool to see you posting again.
*happy chirps of agreement*
songbird *peeps*
songbird
> In article <Sdpk3.831$b4.3...@news1.usit.net>,
> songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
> > ok, who stole deane's escape key!?
>
> offa this keyboard. If I reach for the Ctrl or Alt key and miss by a bit,
> not only do I end up with the wrong character on the screen, but the
> freakin' NT menu pops up and the focus moves away from the window in which
> I am editing.
can't you pop the suckers outta there? i always use the mouse for
crap like that anyways so they are useless to me also.
> This is ridiculous. Not only do we have most of the world slaved to a
> poorly designed operating system, but now the h/w manufacturers are
> striving to replicate its success by screwing up _their_ interfaces, as
> well.
>
> Let us all wish the DoJ and Linux luck.
lettuce prey. *crunch*
i hate them too. if this one breaks and i ever need a new keyboard
i will specifically be looking for one without those keys. (i miss my
old IBM PC keyboard the most. built like iron and a feel worth dying
for.)
songbird *peeps*
songbird
piranha <pir...@gooroos.com> wrote in message
news:7mt5ej$j7m$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com...
[...]
> it wasn't quite a veto, it was very strong discomfort ini-
> tially. i was much more comfortable with two of the other
> candidates, and i didn't like at all that they withdrew as
> if you somehow had automatic seniority. otherwise i would
> not have said anything. i am not interested in hurting
> your feelings.
let me clarify, i withdrew not because of Charlie's insistance
that he would do it, but seeing that the other two proposed people
i had seen to that point (i've never seen Allison's volunteer)
were both a notch above my skills. this was not a senority
decision on my part. if Charlie and Debbie had not come forward
i would have been the only person (that i saw) and i would have
been happy to do it.
i also withdrew because i'm heading out in little over a week
for two or three weeks. so that would throw a crimp in any initial
training and such. i also thought about my future in general and
realized that pretty much at any moment i can pick up and move
and not be available. i don't think it fair to offer to do something
and then not follow through. i hate being wishy-washy, but i also
hate not being a suitable backup. so it was better for me to bow
out seeing there were several other candidates.
Charlie did not scare me off. just some reality intruded and the
timing bites a little. if i ever do settle down and feel like i
finally have a home then if the chance comes up again i'll put my
name in the hat again.
songbird (hope this helps
Mark A.
>In article <Sdpk3.831$b4.3...@news1.usit.net>,
>songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
> >
> > ok, who stole deane's escape key!?
>
>Actually, what I need is for someone to steal these $#!%ing "Windows" keys
Here are my solutions to the keyboard problem:
1. Use Linux and remap the keyboard by editing the appropriate config files.
(I do this to put the Control key back where God intended it.)
2. On Windows 95, use a keyboard remapping tool from Microsoft's
web site. Don't know if there is one for NT, though.
3. On desktop machines, use pre-Win95 keyboards. I've been collecting
Northgate Omnikey and genuine IBM AT keyboards as a hedge against a
dark future when all keyboards will have a mushy feel and annoying
Windows keys.
4. Use an IBM ThinkPad 380Z; best laptop keyboard I've ever used.
Bathsheba Grossman
>> >group discussion.
>>
>> decide that when we wrote the charter. it wasn't a
>> group choice the last time this came up, however, it
>> wasn't even discussed in the group.
>
>And that is fine and for my money would continue to be fine.
I guess we just disagree about that, then...I feel pretty strongly
that the group should be openly involved in all decisions affecting
its moderation.
If there's a strong 'take it to email' mandate coming out of this
discussion, I hope future moderators will consider it. So far, I'm
not really seeing that, but it could happen.
>> >I'd say that the language above is
>> >inappropriate for a group discussion.
>>
>> "i prefer" is inappropriate for a group discussion?
>
>Mmmm, I prefer, followed by a set of criterion and "thanks anyway"
>seemed to me to be a dismissal or, as Sheba put it, a veto. While
>I in no way dispute your right to veto the backup, I don't want to
>know about it. That's all.
Perhaps you'd be best off killfiling moderation discussions?
For my own part, I do dispute Piranha's right to veto a moderator. If
everybody here wants Morey Bidjarano, the fish may argue and kick and
scream and make things difficult. It might go so far as to refuse to
work with him, by resigning its position as moderator. But I don't
think it or anyone should have, ex officio, veto power.
I tend to think that if a moderator doesn't want what the group as a
whole wants, they should resign anyway. Like Mao said, we should
serve the people.
-Sheba
Bathsheba Grossman (831) 429-8224
Zoa Sculpture http://www.bathsheba.com
Bathsheba Grossman
>In article <7mt8an$jiu$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
>> >> decide that when we wrote the charter. it wasn't a
>> >> group choice the last time this came up, however, it
>> >> wasn't even discussed in the group.
>> >
>> >And that is fine and for my money would continue to be fine.
>>
>> discussion about that. while at this time i am very
>> stressed by the acrimony in a group i am mentoring,
>> and would choose "benign dictatorship" over other op-
>> tions, in general i am not so inclined.
>
>OTOH, you guys have to be able to work together so it is only fair
>that current moderators have more input. I just don't think that it
>needs to be discussed openly, for reasons that are becoming
>increasingly obvious.
What reasons are those? That Charlie and Piranha are fighting?
I feel like the process is more or less working. There's a lot of hot
air going around, but that always happens when you try something new:
it's stressful, but it doesn't mean things are breaking down.
Hopefully it'll be a learning experience.
>Absolutely. Perhaps there should be a public call for volunteers
>and then a list posted so that people can voice their support or
>objections (via email) with the final decision made by the current
>panel of moderators? Not the most democratic, but again, the panel
>has to work as a group.
When I made my original post, I wasn't sure it wouldn't work that way.
People could have sent email; instead they volunteered on the group.
>> do you think we should do a group collection? i don't
>> want people to think they _have_ to contribute. i've
>> seen paying for it simply as part of the usenet gift
>> culture -- i get stuff from it, i give stuff back. but
>> it might also give people more of a sense that this is
>> "their" group, which would be nice. and i don't want
>> future moderators to think that this is somehow part of
>> the moderator duties.
>>
>> opinions welcome.
>
>Well, I for one, don't feel that I have to contribute, but I do feel
>that the group provides a very important "good" in my life. If there
>are costs involved in maintaining the bot, I want to participate.
I'm glad to hear it. I've felt a little guilty myself that the prime
mods are paying the freight in addition to doing the work, and I think
contributions should be solicited. There could be a little fund drive
once a year, public radio style. The amounts involved are tiny, but I
think it would be a really satisfying symbol.
Of course, now that we know the amount, anybody could just go ahead
and appoint theirself Official Panhandler.
Matthew Daly
>In article <Sdpk3.831$b4.3...@news1.usit.net>,
>songbird <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
> >
> > ok, who stole deane's escape key!?
>
>Actually, what I need is for someone to steal these $#!%ing "Windows" keys
>offa this keyboard. If I reach for the Ctrl or Alt key and miss by a bit,
>not only do I end up with the wrong character on the screen, but the
>freakin' NT menu pops up and the focus moves away from the window in which
>I am editing.
If I thought I could get away with a random act of kindness without being
fired, I'd trade you your keyboard for one of the old ones at work. The
Windows key kicks ass! The number one thing that I seem to do at work is
bringing up Explorer windows, and being able to do it with Win+E instead
of moving my hand over to the insipid mouse is a godsend.
Still, I guess if I ran the circus, it would be customizable so that just
tapping that key didn't open the start menu if you didn't want it to.
It's handy if you're working on a 14" keyboard and have the hidden
taskbar, but that's about it. And I'd like to set up my own key
combinations, like Win+C bringing up Calculator or Win+N bringing up
Notepa^H^H^H^H^H^H a bare-bones yet functional word processor that was
programmed by humans to replace the current product which obviously came
from the Nigh-Infinite Number of Monkeys Programming Division of
Microsoft.
-Matthew, and what the ^$%@ is up with the side button on my mouse?
---
Matthew Daly mwd...@pobox.com http://www.frontiernet.net/~mwdaly/
The longer I live the more I see that I am never wrong about
anything, and that all the pains that I have so humbly taken to
verify my notions have only wasted my time.
Jo Walton
sh...@dnai.com "Bathsheba Grossman" writes:
> I'm glad to hear it. I've felt a little guilty myself that the prime
> mods are paying the freight in addition to doing the work, and I think
> contributions should be solicited. There could be a little fund drive
> once a year, public radio style. The amounts involved are tiny, but I
> think it would be a really satisfying symbol.
>
> Of course, now that we know the amount, anybody could just go ahead
> and appoint theirself Official Panhandler.
I don't think it would be a satisfying symbol, I think it would be
painful. The amounts involved are tiny, collecting it from everyone
would be a real pain for someone, and getting tiny amounts of US
dollars would be a pain for people in other countries. So Tony and
Craig and I and whoever else (Neil and Caspian and Ewan and...) don't
have to bother, but then we're not really contributing... the whole
"fund drive public radio style" thing just pushes all my guilt trip
buttons.
If we're going to do that I think it ought to be like the quilt and
the Nancy surprise thing, entirely voluntary and _fun_. How about a
boink for collecting it with an auction of donated oddments, or a
whip round taken at boinks generally and any extra collected could be
used for something else fun - but then it would have to be decided
what, and people might not agree.
I _hate_ money, I hate what it does to anything once money gets
involved - money requires entirely different standards for dealing
with it and trust and accounting and guilt and worry and I just
really hate what it does to people and the way relationships between
people are.
I'm probably among the least wealthy people on the group, and finding
$100 would be significant, but I'd rather pay the whole amount myself
as a gift than have that sort of fund drive here.
What I'd like to do is have a velvet bag that got passed around boinks
by hand and people put money in and nobody counted it or took anything
out until it slowly meandered it's way across the world (the way the
quilts do) to the fish who would open it and say how many years it was
before the bag needed passing again, or blow the excess on some maple
pecan body paint or hand-lace sails for the boat or give it to a home
for retired alligators other totally frivolous and un-accountable
pleasure. And if someone kept the bag instead of passing it on and went
off to live in Tuvalu on the contents, why it would be they and not we
who would be poorer, for they would have lost our company and goodwill,
and all we'd have lost would be a bag.
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk - Interstichia; Poetry; RASFW FAQ; etc.
Allison Turner
<ant...@usit.net> wrote:
> piranha <pir...@gooroos.com> wrote in message
> news:7mt5ej$j7m$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com...
> [...]
> > it wasn't quite a veto, it was very strong discomfort ini-
> > tially. i was much more comfortable with two of the other
> > candidates, and i didn't like at all that they withdrew as
> > if you somehow had automatic seniority. otherwise i would
> > not have said anything. i am not interested in hurting
> > your feelings.
>
> let me clarify, i withdrew not because of Charlie's insistance
> that he would do it, but seeing that the other two proposed people
> i had seen to that point (i've never seen Allison's volunteer)
That would be Allisson who volunteered, I think.
I only briefly considered volunteering; I'm ok on several of the
recommended skills, but I've spent too many years with Macs, now - my PC
comprehension is only rudimentary, and I don't know nt or C or unix or any
of that stuff. And Windows is pathetic. Would FortranIV help? ;)
I'll also be plunging back in to academia in January, so I might very well
become only a sporatic reader at that time. (I'm hoping I'll take the
phud at a slightly more sane pace and have time for one or two hours a day
of other things such as usenet, friends, whatever. Hard to tell whether
I'll be able to put on the brakes once I start screaming down the hill,
though.)
-Allison
(of course, if Y2K brings civilization to a dead halt, I'll just stay home
and watch the moose :)
Graydon
> Well, Charlie has more seniority than me overall in the s.s.* hierarchy
> as a whole, even though I've been around more in s.s.m. As he has
> much more enthusiasm than I do for the job, I'd be happy to give up
> my place in line to him.
What does seniority have to do with it?
I'd much rather you did it than Charlie; Charlie's grip on his temper
slips a lot more often than yours does.
--
graydon@ |The Human Dress is forged Iron, The Human Form a fiery Forge,
lara. |The Human Face a Furnace seal'd, The Human Heart its
on.ca |hungry Gorge. -- from Wllm. Blake, "A Divine Image", 1794
Charles R Martin
Graydon wrote:
>
> das <d...@halcyon.com> scripsit:
> > Well, Charlie has more seniority than me overall in the s.s.* hierarchy
> > as a whole, even though I've been around more in s.s.m. As he has
> > much more enthusiasm than I do for the job, I'd be happy to give up
> > my place in line to him.
>
> What does seniority have to do with it?
>
> I'd much rather you did it than Charlie; Charlie's grip on his temper
> slips a lot more often than yours does.
If moderation works as advertised, *whoever* is "moderating" should have
no effect on content anyway. I don't think the bot has a temper.