an argument begun in my fem theory class
ashleigh lauren
a form of discrimination. much of the argument has centered around
what the other students have referred to as "hard core pornography"
which they defined as "pornography which shows women being degraded by
being tied up, having things forced into them, or being made to have
sex with animals." so i have some things i need discussed by everyone
here as i'm beginning to feel like a crazy person in class.
1)why do you feel you enjoy BDSM/spanking/insert fetish here?
2)what do you think about the feminist movement?
3)what are your beliefs about sex in general?
sorry about everything being so broad, but i didn't want to bias
anyone's answers. i'm just curious as to how everyone else would
respond to the claims being made in my class as i'm the only one (out
of 25 students) who is defending the idea that some women (and men)
enjoy the idea of being submissive in their sexual acts, and
pornography is an extension of this enjoyment.
thank you all so much for reading my rambling message, and thanks to
anyone who replies as i'm sure this is a topic that has been discussed
in great detail on more than occasion.
ashleighlauren
ashle...@yahoo.com
Quixotoes
I believe in sex in general. But prefer it happen in private.
Ted
Angie (AMF)
lot of time trying to figure it out, but I can remember being excited by
spanking when I was a child - so I guess it's just always been there.
2) The feminist movement is wonderful and has done a lot for women. However,
many feminists need to remember that feminism is about having the same
*choices* as men. Therefore, if I CHOOSE to be submissive, be punished, or
be spanked erotically I am NOT betraying feminism -- I am satisfying my own
needs and desires -- exactly what I *should* be able to do as a human being.
3) The sex question is broad -- how about my beliefs about the porn
industry?
I believe that MANY women in the porn industry are taken advantage of. I
personally know someone who has produced porn films (straight porn, not
fetish) and he told me, in a very off-hand way, "Most of them don't want
money -- they prefer to get paid in heroine or crack." And that's the
problem -- when so many of them are addicts, can we really argue that they
are making an informed, lucid choice about what they're doing with their
bodies? It's sad, and it makes me ill, but at the same time I don't think
the industry should be shut down, and I think there are some women out there
who are NOT addicted and do it because they WANT to -- and they should have
the right to make that choice.
I was flabbergasted to find out, a year or so ago, that there are women who
make spanking films who aren't into spanking. It still blows my mind -- why
someone would go through that when they get no pleasure out of it. I guess
if the money's good and you need work you do what you can -- but if I knew
beforehand that a video I was watching starred a girl who wasn't a spanko I
wouldn't want to watch it. I've also seen some films where the women were
SO young. That "barely legal" thing bothers me. How many great decisions did
you make when you were 18 or 19 years old? How many things did you do that
you now look back on and go, "Geez I wish I hadn't done that?" I think about
these girls who are just out of high school, just able to legally make their
own decisions, getting half-naked in videos and I wonder sometimes how many
of them will look back on that with regret. Just because someone is old
enough to legally make a decision doesn't mean it should be okay for them to
run right out and start making spanking/porn films. Hardly liberal of me,
right? But, I know how stupid I was at 18 and how easily I could be
convinced to do things I would later regret -- even being as intelligent as
I was.
So, do I think pornography is a form of discrimination? No, I don't think
that word really fits. But, I think it can be a way to keep addicts addicted
and it often takes advantage of women who are poor, abused, or strung-out. I
think some companies, vanilla or fetish, take advantage of the innocence of
girls too naive to understand they may not always be happy having appeared
naked in a spanking movie at 18. Mind you, I'm NOT saying ALL -- and I
wouldn't. And I believe there are some girls out there who are perfectly
"with it" enough to make that choice at a young age ... but I'm turned off
by seeing teenagers in movies like that.
Was this at all what you were looking for Ashleigh? Or did I just spend too
much time on my soapbox? LOL
Angie
--
"Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed." -Bruce
Springsteen, "War," Live 1975-85
"ashleigh lauren" <ashleigh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ac58df4.04100...@posting.google.com...
Molly B
I don't have time to reply in more detail right now, but
here's a link to a pretty decent essay about feminism and
BDSM. I think you are talking about an interesting topic,
and I'll try to reply later.
http://www.uncharted-worlds.org/bdsm/bdsmfnsm.htm
Molly B
posted & e-mailed
Jim
As someone *in* the (admittedly soft-core) porn business, I was really
surprised by how you zeroed in on the essentials. Several of the women
in our videos are into spanking, but several are kind of edgy and just
like that edginess and, of course the money.
On the other hand, I've had some experience with hard-core actresses,
and they don't work very well in our vids. They don't seem in general
to have it together, really don't understand the concept of learning
their lines (why should I do that?) and can't take a real spanking.
When I was in Miami for a conference this summer, I got to meet several
of them. A nice bottom does not a good video make.
Some of the women I've met really have it together, though. They are
professional and deliver what they promise. Erica Scott comes to mind
immediately. The best.
I really liked your comment about choice and feminism. I have found
that the loudest of those claiming "feminist" ideals to be only
interested in forcing women to do what *they* wanted. Seems like the
same oppression with a different oppressor.
I agree that spanking is hardwired. Asking why you like it is like
asking why you like sex. It's a drive, and while externally it makes no
sense, to the person with the interest, it's very compelling.
Jim
Angie (AMF)
enthusiasm for spanking is obvious and comes across very well -- and her
dialogue always rings true. That's important to me because I'm a
theater/movies fan and when the dialogue is trite and the delivery triter
(it's a word if I say it's a word, damn it) I lose interest. In vanilla porn
I don't care to have a story and I wish the people would just shut up and
fuck (I'm sort of a guy in that respect, eh?) but in spanking movies the
story and acting are key.
Jim said: "A nice bottom does not a good video make."
Agreed. And sometimes great talent can make up for a mediocre bottom.
Jim also said: "I have found that the loudest of those claiming "feminist"
ideals to be only interested in forcing women to do what *they* wanted. "
Warning: Bad case of word vomit coming up but I needed to write this out!
I have this theory, which I'm sure is not original, but I promise that I
feel like I thought it up all by myself. The theory is that when attention
is brought to matters that need change there's usually this time where we go
WAY overboard for awhile. For instance, let's take sexual abuse of
children. This has been going on since the beginning of time, I'm sure, but
remember in the 80s when it was suddenly EVERYWHERE on the news? You heard
about it constantly -- and there was this overzealousness, perhaps, to the
hunting down of molesters. It was shrouded in so much silence for so long
that when people started paying attention all of the sudden everyone needed
to be saved. It was suddenly so much a part of the American conscience that
everyone was going to their local hypnotherapist and finding out they'd
repressed their own childhood horrors. But, that needed to happen. It needed
to happen in order for a happy medium to eventually be found. What was once
silent became something everyone was aware of -- and now that
overzealousness has quieted down somewhat. I think the same thing happened
with school violence and the zero tolerance policies in schools. Suddenly
you're seeing kids shooting up their schools everyday so we have to
over-react and expel kids for making "guns" out of paper and going "bang
bang you're dead" to their classmates. Ridiculous? Yes! But, in order to
find that happy medium human beings have to go to the other extreme. I
predict in the next decade or so that will calm down somewhat and we'll have
realistic policies in place in schools.
Okay -- so what does that have to do with feminism? We're still in that
overzealous place where the sensitivity is so high that women see any of
their "sisters" in a submissive role and they immediately think they are
being taken advantage of. Eventually, I hope, more women who have worked so
hard for equal rights for their sisters, daughters, etc will understand my
previous point -- that it's the choice that matters and what we do with that
choice should be up to us -- and not see women who CHOOSE to stay home and
take care of their children as idiots who have been duped by The Big Bad
Man. <grin>
--
"Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed." -Bruce
Springsteen, "War," Live 1975-85
"Jim" <wvto...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:10m66h8...@corp.supernews.com...
THIS IS ME
> so this week in feminist theory the argument is whether pornography is
> a form of discrimination. much of the argument has centered around
> what the other students have referred to as "hard core pornography"
> which they defined as "pornography which shows women being degraded by
> being tied up, having things forced into them, or being made to have
> sex with animals."
As long as the individuals involved are not being coerced, even if
pornography is a source of discrimination, so what. Boys respond to
me in large part based on my physical appearance. I am capable of
setting the necesary boundaries and exercising sufficient caution to
be safe. Nevertheless, with the exception of exhibitionists, the only
benefit for those involved in pornography is economic compensation.
so i have some things i need discussed by everyone
> here as i'm beginning to feel like a crazy person in class.
> 1)why do you feel you enjoy BDSM/spanking/insert fetish here?
Don't really know but does it matter?
> 2)what do you think about the feminist movement?
Opening opportunities beyond teaching, nursing, and secretarial
services has been a very real benefit of the women's movement. Just
has gone way too far when a boy can no longer simply coment on any
aspect of our appearance with out being accused of sexual harrasment.
How we dress in hip huggers and show a great deal more skin than prior
to the femenist movement makes a statement but I do not no what that
statemkent is. At least my hip huggers come up to the top of my
panties which are ordinary panties and not a throng.
> 3)what are your beliefs about sex in general?
My belief is sex should be consensual and those who commit rape and
molest children should be separated from society forever. Not
vengeance, simply keeping society safe from such dangers.
..
..
..
Alpha Girl Jennifer
..
..
..
THIS IS ME
>
> As someone *in* the (admittedly soft-core) porn business, I was really
> surprised by how you zeroed in on the essentials. Several of the women
> in our videos are into spanking, but several are kind of edgy and just
> like that edginess and, of course the money.
Who knows? I suppose it is posible that some of those women even
like Jim.
>
> On the other hand, I've had some experience with hard-core actresses,
> and they don't work very well in our vids. They don't seem in general
> to have it together, really don't understand the concept of learning
> their lines (why should I do that?) and can't take a real spanking.
Sheesh, I thought I was the only one Jim dislikes.
> When I was in Miami for a conference this summer, I got to meet several
> of them. A nice bottom does not a good video make.
>
> Some of the women I've met really have it together, though. They are
> professional and deliver what they promise. Erica Scott comes to mind
> immediately. The best.
>
> I really liked your comment about choice and feminism. I have found
> that the loudest of those claiming "feminist" ideals to be only
> interested in forcing women to do what *they* wanted. Seems like the
> same oppression with a different oppressor.
If Jim is calling Bonnie and Domino feminists, he seems to have
them pegged to the T.
>
> I agree that spanking is hardwired. Asking why you like it is like
> asking why you like sex. It's a drive, and while externally it makes no
> sense, to the person with the interest, it's very compelling.
So Jim is claiming those who do not like Bonnie and Domino are
hardwired to not like them?
Jim
<snip>
> In vanilla porn
> I don't care to have a story and I wish the people would just shut up and
> fuck (I'm sort of a guy in that respect, eh?) but in spanking movies the
> story and acting are key.
>
> Jim said: "A nice bottom does not a good video make."
>
> Agreed. And sometimes great talent can make up for a mediocre bottom.
Sure. Bethany and I have agreed that we will only use spankos in our
vids from now on. (Except for Lamia, the "goth girl." She's smart,
cute, and reliable.)
>
> Jim also said: "I have found that the loudest of those claiming "feminist"
> ideals to be only interested in forcing women to do what *they* wanted. "
>
> Warning: Bad case of word vomit coming up but I needed to write this out!
>
> I have this theory, which I'm sure is not original, but I promise that I
> feel like I thought it up all by myself. The theory is that when attention
> is brought to matters that need change there's usually this time where we go
> WAY overboard for awhile.
<snip>
I like to say the pendulum swings the fastest as it goes through the center.
>
> Okay -- so what does that have to do with feminism? We're still in that
> overzealous place where the sensitivity is so high that women see any of
> their "sisters" in a submissive role and they immediately think they are
> being taken advantage of. Eventually, I hope, more women who have worked so
> hard for equal rights for their sisters, daughters, etc will understand my
> previous point -- that it's the choice that matters and what we do with that
> choice should be up to us -- and not see women who CHOOSE to stay home and
> take care of their children as idiots who have been duped by The Big Bad
> Man. <grin>
The seventies were very tough for me. I love women more than anything
(except my children and Bethany, of course) and felt very put-upon by
the PC man-haters who made their livings by convincing women that man
was their natural enemy.
I saved an article by George Will from that era entitled, "The Cold War
Among Women." It lamented the same thing as above. My favoite quote
was from a young mother who said, "I don't describe women who have
chosen to pursue careers as emasculating vipers; in turn, it would be
nice if they didn't think of me as a gingham-clad, cookie-baking nitwit."
Oh, I love that.
Jim
--
A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our
friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An
hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing
down, but it is not this day. This day we fight! By all that you hold
dear on this good Earth, I bid you Stand, Men of the West! Aragorn --
Return of the King (Tolkien)
Mija
> so this week in feminist theory the argument is whether pornography is a
> form of discrimination. much of the argument has centered around what the
> other students have referred to as "hard core pornography" which they
> defined as "pornography which shows women being degraded by being tied up,
> having things forced into them, or being made to have sex with animals."
> so i have some things i need discussed by everyone here as i'm beginning
> to feel like a crazy person in class.
It's a tough row to hoe. I go back and forth on
the pornography thing. It's protected speech as
far as I'm concerned (except in the kiddie area)
but I don't find it empowering.
There's BDSM images that are degrading. And there's
a lot that aren't. And still more that's artistic
and edgy. Part of what makes the art work is that it
hits buttons -- race, gender, sexuality.
Mostly I think what's degrading and damaging about
porn is found in a lot of mediums. When someone
alows their fantasy world to be so embued with
pornographic images of people as sexual objects that
they lose appreciation for the humanity of others,
pornography is damaging.
> 1)why do you feel you enjoy BDSM/spanking/insert fetish here?
I think it was hardwired for me. I can remember
spanking fantasies back as far as age 3 or 4.
> 2)what do you think about the feminist movement?
Only good things. Politically and socially, each wave
of feminism changed the world -- from the abolition
of slavery, to universal sufferage, the right to
control reproduction, to be paid equal wages for equal
work, to the right to own property and be more than a legal
child.
There's some theoretical extremes out there, but that's
true with every movement. Audre Lorde, a writer
and poet from the 1970s-80s who I dearly love reading
has some harsh things to say about S/M in the lesbian
community, stuff about reproducing patriarchy that
I disagree with, but I still love reading her. Why?
Because I do think it's important to question why
we do what we do. Example, why is sexism sexy? I'm
attracted to people who are dominant -- male or female--
and the answer as to why is very complex.
A lot of hard work was done by women 1780 to 1970s
that made the life I have now possible. My grandmother
and I were talking last time I visited about voting
and now she remembered debates over dinner about
whether women should get to vote (her mother believed
yes, her father no). It's shocking to me that this is
still in living memory.
I proudly identify as feminist, in my private life
and my work life as well. It's a huge part of my
identity.
> 3)what are your beliefs about sex in general?
Not sure what you mean by that?
I know feminism affects my belief in my sexuality in
general. In a pre-feminist world, I'd still be married
and probably not even have a language in which to
talk about my own desires, especially if they were
outside those of my husband. I'd have children, not
because I wanted to, but because there'd be no way
to stop it.
I don't think it's at all an accident that my mother
talks about not really having good sex until after
she had a hysterectomy. Because even though she had
bc after the mid 70s, she still carried with her the
constant heavy memory from the 1960s that each time
they had sex she could end up pregnant.
> sorry about everything being so broad, but i didn't want to bias anyone's
> answers. i'm just curious as to how everyone else would respond to the
> claims being made in my class as i'm the only one (out of 25 students) who
> is defending the idea that some women (and men) enjoy the idea of being
> submissive in their sexual acts, and pornography is an extension of this
> enjoyment. thank you all so much for reading my rambling message, and
> thanks to anyone who replies as i'm sure this is a topic that has been
> discussed in great detail on more than occasion.
I'm not sure I can totally help you -- but I'd
recommend reading some of Dorthy Allison's writing
on s/m, feminism and sexuality.
I'd defend them seperately -- porn of all sorts is
protected speech.
BDSM, as I know and do it is my most powerful expression
of my sexuality. I don't get hurt and I don't hurt anyone.
To say that my sexuality is "bad" or "wrong" is to reproduce
in a new form the sort of control over bodies the feminist
and GLBT have struggled so hard to put down.
I'm not someone who believes that my playing is a powerful
act of feminism. But my right to do that stems from my right
to control my own body. To the degree play is an expression
of that right, it's feminist.
Peace,
Mija - hoping this helps. :)
--
"I solemnly swear I am up to no good."
The Treehouse: http://www.thetreehouse.net
Mija
>
> I saved an article by George Will from that era entitled, "The Cold War
> Among Women." It lamented the same thing as above. My favoite quote was
> from a young mother who said, "I don't describe women who have chosen to
> pursue careers as emasculating vipers; in turn, it would be nice if they
> didn't think of me as a gingham-clad, cookie-baking nitwit."
It's nice that she didn't say that -- a lot
of other people said it for her though.
Middle class women who chose to work outside the home
in the 1970s got *slammed* socially, especially if
they had children and a husband and didn't *need*
to work. My mom didn't work when I was a kid and I
remember listening as her friends complained about
this or that "working woman," imagining all sort of
reasons why she wasn't staying at home with her kids
and complaining that she was taking a good job away
from a man who needed it. God forbid their children
had any school, health or social problems, clearly c
aused by their moms not being at home with them 24/7.
To her credit, my mother took the other side pretty
often. I remember being really angry after one of
her friends left and talking to her afterwards. She
told me that she thought the other woman, who'd
quite college part-way through to get married and
had never worked, felt threatened now that there
were all these bright, educated young women suddenly
working in her husband's office. I remember asking
her why she didn't feel threatened then and her
laughing and saying that she'd finished college
and had told my father that if he wanted to stay home
she could trade with him any time he wanted.
My point? Times were different. I see it in the
generation above me in my academic field -- my mentors
had to choose -- they could have marriage and a family
or be taken seriously and have a career. They couldn't
do both. I think that was true until pretty far into
the 1980s. In a department that's pretty much 50/50
male and female, none of them women over 40 had / or
have children. That's not true of the men -- the only
ones without children are gay.
The choices they made have made my own less limited.
Personally, I'm nothing but gratful. I imagine that it's
nice for men too to know they can be loved for something
other than their earning potential.
Peace,
Mija
THIS IS ME
I think the same thing happened
> with school violence and the zero tolerance policies in schools. Suddenly
> you're seeing kids shooting up their schools everyday so we have to
> over-react and expel kids for making "guns" out of paper and going "bang
> bang you're dead" to their classmates. Ridiculous? Yes! But, in order to
> find that happy medium human beings have to go to the other extreme. I
> predict in the next decade or so that will calm down somewhat and we'll have
> realistic policies in place in schools.
>
schools is to take all policy making functions out of the hands of
teachers and administrators. By and large, teachers are terribly over
conservative fear ridden individuals who spread their crippling
tendencies in the name of education and the worst thing about teachers
is they do not live in the real world. Of course shooting the
teachers and administrators may not be the worst idea.
haditwithyou
this topic.
Let's make a clear distinction about pornography (and other
sexually-charged images, such as much advertising).
The pornography itself is protected speech (in the US).
The writing, the images, the "message" often - usually - objectify
some class of people. Women are objectified more often than other
groups, but certainly the objectification can pertain to men, to a
racial group, to an age group, etc. A profitable piece of porn
probably objectfies the sexual fantasy partner of a significant number
of people.
Societal attitudes/values regarding gender have changed radically in
the last 30 years. (I was there.) Just thumb through any popular
magazine from the 50's or early 60's. It's not just the employment
opportunities and birth control and so on. It's the whole common
reference that gender differences do not matter in many many contexts.
If you prefer, peek at a magazine or even a dictionary from the 30's
or 40's. Check out the racial imagery.
Is porn the sexual equivalent of a minstrel show? Probably. Does it
demean the ambitions and potentials of women as a group? Probably. Is
it a matter of degree? Certainly. That negligee pose is a cigarette;
the rape scene is a dagger. Most people can tell the difference
between fantasy and real life.
As you might imagine, porn is farther down the feminist priority list
than it used to be. Back when it was okay to behave in ways that are
no longer acceptable in public, that spanked secretary sucking her
boss's cock was a much more dangerous image.
So there is a range of feminist political reaction to porno and sexual
imagery. Some draw the line at violence, some at obvious submission,
some at outrageously large boobs, some at Ambercrombie & Fitch
advertising.
Ask your professor if an image of a normal-looking woman spanking her
flailing husband is anti-feminist.
haditwithyou
Yurassis Dragon
>
>>>I'm not someone who believes that my playing is a powerful act of feminism.
But my right to do that stems from my right
to control my own body. To the degree play is an expression of that right,
it's feminist. <<<
>
That is what matters in the long run. Anything that restricts the ability of a
person to do what (s)he wants to do and that does not injure an innocent human
being is repression. Sometimes the repressor labels hirself as a "feminist" or
"moralist" or claims religion or custom as a justification. Whatever the case,
it is interference with your rights.
If you want to be barefoot and pregnant, you should be allowed to do so. If
you want to be President of the USA or the Teamster's Union, you should be
allowed to do so. If you want to live in a sexual domestic relationship with
one women, five men or the tenor section of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, you
should be able to do so. And if you want to carry a compact 9mm in your purse,
you should be allowed to do so unless somebody can come up with a good reason
why you (Mija) should not be.
Papa
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit
violence on those who would do us harm - George Orwell
Mija
> >Mija writes:
> >
> >>>I'm not someone who believes that my playing is a powerful act of
> feminism. But my right to do that stems from my right to control my own
> body. To the degree play is an expression of that right, it's feminist.
> <<<
> >
> Your playing is an act of expressing yourself as a free adult human being.
Agreed. But the recognition right of women to be treated
as free adults and be able to do what they wish with
their bodies is the result of more than two centuries
of effort by feminists. 100 years ago what we accept
as "human rights" was wildly radical.
The reminants are still there in the laws of a number
of states. Example: in Ohio, if a married woman wants to
get her tubes tied, her doctor needs the written consent
of her husband. (Not so the other direction). For
me,it's like brushing against the color old color bar
laws -- can anyone believe that this was considered
"right" as recently as 40 years ago?
Peace,
Mija
Butt Seriously
of you will say that "two cents" is overstating the value):
As far as the desire to be spanked and/or otherwise dominated, I
believe (as others have stated) that this is hard-wired into some
people. This group consists largely of such people. We did not choose
to have these desires. We can, however, choose whether or not to act
on these desires. Many people in this forum have chosen to act on
these desires. To spank an unwilling person is sheer dominance, but to
spank a person who WANTS it is an expression of respect and even love.
Sex in general: EVERYONE wants sex, we just don't all agree on
precisely what form it should take.
The feminist movement: Today's women have benefited greatly from the
past and ongoing efforts of the women's movement. These benefits take
the forms of (1) Freedom of opportunity and (2) Freedom of choice.
What we sometimes forget is that true freedom of opportunity and
choice must allow a woman to make unpopular or "bad" choices - such as
to enjoy having her car door opened by a man, choosing to be a stay at
home mom, and (gasp!) choosing to be dominated in a sexual
relationship. And here's another one: helping to produce pornographic
movies.
I believe that pornography is largely produced for the pleasure of
men. To understand why this is true, we must attempt to set aside all
of our cultural biases and think of ourselves as the animals that we
are. This is biology now, not morals or intellect. Nature's purpose of
sex, whether we like it or not, is to produce babies. On an
instinctual level, men desire to impregnate as many women as possible.
Therefore they are easily sexually aroused - such as by watching other
people have sex. Also, I believe that this is why many men have
"wandering eyes." Although our culture discourages it, biology pushes
a man to find MANY women sexually desirable. A woman, however, as the
bearer and (most likely) rearer of the resulting child, have a vested
interest in being VERY selective as to when and with whom they
copulate. Therefore it is in a woman's biological best interest to be
less quickly sexually aroused. Watching other people have sex isn't a
turn on at all, but having sex with a desirable partner is another
thing altogether!
I realize that the above statements are simplistic and quite general.
Nevertheless, I believe that they explain why men (as a rule) like
pornography more than women (as a rule) do. Women who are associated
with pornography are not being exploited as long they are doing what
they do by choice.
Yurassis Dragon
>
>>>The reminants are still there in the laws of a number of states. Example:
in Ohio, if a married woman wants to get her tubes tied, her doctor needs the
written consent of her husband. (Not so the other direction). For me,it's
was considered
"right" as recently as 40 years ago?
>
marching on Washington. And the old laws are being repealed, one by one, all
across the country. If "feminist" means seeking fair and equal treatment for
women, you can call me a feminist. But it will take time to get rid of all the
old ideas - hell it wasn't until the 1990's that women got the vote in some
cantons in Switzerland. And they still can't vote in most of the Arab world.
And the Arabs are still active in the african slave trade.
We aren't perfect here, but we are a damn sight better than a lot of people
around the world.
Tony Elka
Seriously <buttser...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I realize that the above statements are simplistic and quite general.
> Nevertheless, I believe that they explain why men (as a rule) like
> pornography more than women (as a rule) do. Women who are associated
> with pornography are not being exploited as long they are doing what
> they do by choice.
I cannot speak for the world of vanilla erotica, but 50 percent of our
spanking video customers are women.
Tony
Yurassis Dragon
>
>>>I believe that pornography is largely produced for the pleasure of men.<<<
>
appeal to women. Right Steve?
haditwithyou
> spanking video customers are women.
>
> Tony
Now THAT'S interesting, Tony.
Is there any meaningful difference - in general - between male-ordered
and female-ordered videos?
haditwithyou
Tony Elka
haditwithyou <secreta...@mail.com> wrote:
Oddly enough, no. Most of our customers prefer videos of men spanking
women, but customers of both gender purchase women spanking women
videos and women spanking men videos as well.
And we've had several women express an interest in men spanking men
videos also.
Tony
nataS
>
> Oddly enough, no. Most of our customers prefer videos of men spanking
> women, but customers of both gender purchase women spanking women
> videos and women spanking men videos as well.
>
> And we've had several women express an interest in men spanking men
> videos also.
>
> Tony
Very interesting!
Have you had any men express an interest in M/M videos?
If you don't mind me asking, what are your sales, units and distinct
clients?
While I don't think you represent enough of the market to make anything
statistically significant, I'd love to be able to look at the sales trends:
Average purchases per customer.
In repeat customers, the average number per purchase, and the average
interval between purchases.
Repeat customers vs. one time only.
Monthly volumes. (there's a football season, a snowsport season, a scuba
season - is there a spanking season?)
M/F ratio per category - M/F, F/F, F/M, and M/M.
M/F ratio per category - Sex, no sex, anal sex.
M/F ratio per category - C, N/C
Internet, physical media, both.
Total sales: M/F, F/F, F/M, M/M
Crossing all of the above.
And going into the questions that would take more detailed consumer research
than could ever be found in sales records (well, ethically anyways)
The average education level of consumers.
The average income of consumers.
The number of vendors purchased from.
The annual amount spent on spanking/BDSM multimedia per year.
Internet vs. physical media.
Average age.
Male vs. Female.
Married vs. unmarried vs. committed partner.
Sex of committed partner/spouse.
Race.
Top vs. bottom vs. switch.
Prefer: M/F, F/F, F/M, M/M videos
Prefer: Sex, no Sex videos
Prefer: C, N/C videos
Number of purchased DVD/VHS
Number of purchased computer media.
..And, forgive me, political affiliation.
What is the quintessential spanko like?
--
I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours
But I think that god's got a sick sense of humor
And when I die I expect to find him laughing
Tony Elka
wrote:
> Very interesting!
> Have you had any men express an interest in M/M videos?
Yes, some. Gay and straight males.
> If you don't mind me asking, what are your sales, units and distinct
> clients?
I don't mind your asking, but that is privledged information, so I
won't be answering all of your very good questions.
> What is the quintessential spanko like?
Just look at the variety of folks posting in here, that should give you
a very good idea.
Tony
Elsps
good at this, it's because I love it, it brings me tremendous joy, and I guess
that shows. Plus, working with people like Tony & Eve, and Jim and Bethany,
makes the process a piece of cake. As for women who do spanking videos when
they're not into spanking, I just shake my head at that. Very sad what some
people will do for a chunk of change. And it doesn't make a good product
either; a savvy audience can tell when she's not really into it.
I'll throw my two cents in here:
1)why do you feel you enjoy BDSM/spanking/insert fetish here?
I believe it's because I'm wired for it, and the activity of spanking and all
its accompanying nuances are eroticized in my brain and my body. I think it's
fun, playful, naughty, sexy and it makes me feel on top of the world.
2)what do you think about the feminist movement?
I believe in its principles, and I'm one hell of a lot happier being a woman in
this day and age than I would have been in past generations. However, I don't
like it when women use feminism as an excuse to bash men. That is
counterproductive.
3)what are your beliefs about sex in general?
Sex is one of the most fun things two people can do. It should be enjoyed to
the fullest, in any circumstance, free of guilt and hangups. If the two adults
are consenting, go for it, laugh, revel, enjoy! Life is too short not to.
Erica S.
--If you want to be called Master, play with Barbara Eden--
bum...@yahoo.com
<shado...@shadowlane.com> wrote:
>> What is the quintessential spanko like?
>Just look at the variety of folks posting in here, that should give you
>a very good idea.
In other words, like anyone at all? <G> Somehow that doesn't surprise
me, to be honest. I sure haven't seen anything in common between the
spankos I've met in the last almost four years except that they all
like spanking.
Reply to this address; mail sent to the address in
From: will disappear into a black hole. :)
Yurassis Dragon
>
>>>In other words, like anyone at all? <G> Somehow that doesn't surprise me,
to be honest. I sure haven't seen anything in common between the spankos I've
met in the last almost four years except that they all like spanking.<<<
>
from Left to Right. We have Mensa members and people who never finished high
school.
We have doctors, lawyers and warehouse workers. We have people who are up to 6'
8" and some who barely reach 5 feet.
Age ranges from early 70's to late teens.
And at least six countries.
bum...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>Got it in one. As you can see from the political threads we have a full range
>from Left to Right.
And up, and down, and back and forth. ;-)
>We have Mensa members and people who never finished high
>school.
Those two categories aren't mutually exclusive. I've known people who
qualified for Mensa who never finished high school, although I don't
know if they ever joined or not. Mensa members are required to have a
certain IQ level, not a certain level of education.
>We have doctors, lawyers and warehouse workers. We have people who are up to 6'
>8" and some who barely reach 5 feet.
>Age ranges from early 70's to late teens.
>And at least six countries.
I've "met" people here from at least eight countries, although I don't
know any regulars from some of them.
Those are the unimportant differences, though. The *important*
differences are things like, "Top/bottom, Dom/sub, or Master, slave"?
Or, "hand, paddle, strap, whip, cane, or electric cable"? ;-P
Yurassis Dragon
>
>>>Those are the unimportant differences, though. The *important* differences
are things like, "Top/bottom, Dom/sub, or Master, slave"? Or, "hand, paddle,
strap, whip, cane, or electric cable"? ;-P<<<
>
I leave whip and cane to the experts and electric cable to the electricians.
Kate
newsreader, but I saw it mentioned in another thread and am going to
try to respond via Google.
ashleigh...@hotmail.com (ashleigh lauren) wrote in message news:<8ac58df4.04100...@posting.google.com>...
> so this week in feminist theory the argument is whether pornography is
> a form of discrimination. much of the argument has centered around
> what the other students have referred to as "hard core pornography"
> which they defined as "pornography which shows women being degraded by
> being tied up, having things forced into them, or being made to have
> sex with animals." so i have some things i need discussed by everyone
> here as i'm beginning to feel like a crazy person in class.
When I was a freshman in college, this topic came up in a philosophy
class I was taking. It was especially irritating because the
professor was male and was absolutely adamant that pornography,
particularly our favorite kind and its variations, is degrading to
women. I have to wonder if he ever actually asked one, or if he just
took it upon himself to decide for us. He went so far as to say that
it ought to be outlawed in order to "protect" us. Frankly, I think
we're more in need of protection from his type than from pornography
in which all the participants consented to the activities involved.
Here are my answers to your questions, for whatever they're worth.
> 1)why do you feel you enjoy BDSM/spanking/insert fetish here?
Well, for starters, I'm just kinked that way. Also, if you've ever
read Anne Rice's Exit to Eden, she talks about What We Do as a way of
acting out human tendencies toward power struggle, drama, aggression,
etc. in a safe, symbolic way, and I think there is something to that.
I know it often feels like theatre to me. (i.e. the writing of scenes
in advance, costumes, role-play, testing of limits, or even just
acting as though someone else is really in charge.) I'm sure others
feel differently. I think there are many reasons why I enjoy it, not
all of them reasons that I could articulate.
> 2)what do you think about the feminist movement?
I think it's great insofar as it sticks to the idea that men and women
have equal worth and deserve equal rights, liberties, and respect.
But when it ventures into the area of affirmative action, or worse,
the notions perpetuated by your feminist theory class, it is very
insidious indeed. When women suggest that other women should avoid
doing things that they enjoy (be it homemaking or permitting one's
self to be tied up and violated for one's own sexual pleasure) for the
sake of the Movement, it defeats the entire purpose of fighting for
women's rights. It is just as discriminatory to tell a woman that her
desire to submit is wrong as it is to tell her that submission is all
she's fit for.
> 3)what are your beliefs about sex in general?
Anything that happens between individuals who have the capacity for
consent is okay and of no concern to anyone but them.
Hope that helps.
Best,
Kate
Janet Hardy
ashleigh lauren wrote:
> so this week in feminist theory the argument is whether pornography is
> a form of discrimination. much of the argument has centered around
> what the other students have referred to as "hard core pornography"
> which they defined as "pornography which shows women being degraded by
> being tied up, having things forced into them, or being made to have
> sex with animals." so i have some things i need discussed by everyone
> here as i'm beginning to feel like a crazy person in class.
> 1)why do you feel you enjoy BDSM/spanking/insert fetish here?
My spanking fantasies have their origin, IMO, in a paradigm that has to
do with "earning love" through suffering... something about breaking
down someone's boundaries so that they can be nurtured and cared for.
As for my spanking realities -- well, I'm just an intensity junkie. I
enjoy seeing how far I can push my own, or someone else's, body and spirit.
> 2)what do you think about the feminist movement?
I am a feminist. It appalls me when women a generation younger than
mine, who never lived in a prefeminist world, abjure feminism -- without
having a clue about what their lives would be like without it.
> 3)what are your beliefs about sex in general?
I'm for it ;)
Seriously, I think sexuality runs through everyone, all the time,
through everything we do. I think we run into problems when we try to
separate "sex" from "not-sex." I think sex is an expression of spirit,
one of the most important ways we have for communing with something
greater than ourselves.
> sorry about everything being so broad, but i didn't want to bias
> anyone's answers. i'm just curious as to how everyone else would
> respond to the claims being made in my class as i'm the only one (out
> of 25 students) who is defending the idea that some women (and men)
> enjoy the idea of being submissive in their sexual acts, and
> pornography is an extension of this enjoyment.
Hope this helps. You might see if you can get hold of a copy of "The New
Bottoming Book" (by my co-author Dossie Easton & me) to read about two
extremely feminist women who enjoy various types of sexual submission,
and to get some support for the idea that sexual submission can be
empowering.
Janet
--
AVAILABLE NOW! "RADICAL ECSTASY: SM Journeys To Transcendence," by
Dossie Easton and Janet W. Hardy. ""Progressive, deliciously honest, and
HOT HOT HOT!... I'm in awe." - Annie Sprinkle. At your favorite
bookstore, on-line bookseller or at http://www.greenerypress.com .
Janet Hardy
Spanking, IME, is the "women's kink" -- a *lot* more women respond to
spanking fantasies than to fantasies of, say, bondage or anal sex.
Janet Hardy
Yurassis Dragon wrote:
>>Butt Seriously writes:
>>
>>
>>>>I believe that pornography is largely produced for the pleasure of men.<<<
>>>
> This was once true, but an increasing amount of porn is being produced to
> appeal to women. Right Steve?
True -- Candida Royalle has made her reputation producing vanilla porn
that is designed to appeal to women.
There are a lot of us out here -- video makers, publishers, toymakers,
boutiques, etc. -- attempting to produce and sell adult products that
are non-dehumanizing, respectful of our customers and of the people
represented in our imagery, etc. Ask any one of us if we couldn't
quintuple our income by showing the standard exploitive male-oriented
silicone-tits stuff, and stand back for the rant ;)
Greenery is usually represented at the Adult Video News show in Las
Vegas every January. Every time I've sent someone new, they've gone off
buoyant with anticipation of lots of sex, pulchritude and good times...
and come back depressed and morose after a few days' exposure to the
overwhelming vibe of misogyny and scorn that is still the norm in the
porn industry.
Tony Elka
<Greene...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Greenery is usually represented at the Adult Video News show in Las
> Vegas every January. Every time I've sent someone new, they've gone off
> buoyant with anticipation of lots of sex, pulchritude and good times...
> and come back depressed and morose after a few days' exposure to the
> overwhelming vibe of misogyny and scorn that is still the norm in the
> porn industry.
It's friggin awful, ain't it?
Tony
OU812?
>
>
> Tony Elka wrote:
>
>> In article <c2762687.04100...@posting.google.com>, Butt
>> Seriously <buttser...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I realize that the above statements are simplistic and quite general.
>>> Nevertheless, I believe that they explain why men (as a rule) like
>>> pornography more than women (as a rule) do. Women who are associated
>>> with pornography are not being exploited as long they are doing what
>>> they do by choice.
>>
>>
>> I cannot speak for the world of vanilla erotica, but 50 percent of our
>> spanking video customers are women.
>
>
> Spanking, IME, is the "women's kink" -- a *lot* more women respond to
> spanking fantasies than to fantasies of, say, bondage or anal sex.
>
> Janet
>
And then there are those of us that like all three <eg>
Tygra
Bunny
http://www.lovepeoplenotmoney.com/misogyny.html
Supposedly, this is subversive. Of what? Feminism? Feminists who are stuck up?
Yurassis Dragon
>
>>>Supposedly, this is subversive. Of what? Feminism? Feminists who are stuck
up?<<<
>
Papa
(looking for his duct tape)