I'm being really brave
Sarah
and sending Wolf to see a Working Lady (as the ones we're choosing
from call themselves) for our ninth anniversary in two weeks.
--
See the ssg homepage: http://socsexualitygeneral.org/
If you want to contact me directly on SSG moderation business, please replace TwoUnderscores with... well, two underscores.
JustGB
> and sending Wolf to see a Working Lady (as the ones we're choosing
> from call themselves) for our ninth anniversary in two weeks.
Why do I have the feeling you are terribly apprehensive about this
while trying to sound matter-of-fact?
JustGB
Serene Vannoy
Because you can read subject lines?
Serene
--
"I am an agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at
the bottom of the garden." -- Richard Dawkins
Sarah
>JustGB wrote:
>> On Aug 29, 9:26 pm, Sarah <STwoUnderscor...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>> and sending Wolf to see a Working Lady (as the ones we're choosing
>>> from call themselves) for our ninth anniversary in two weeks.
>>
>> Why do I have the feeling you are terribly apprehensive about this
>> while trying to sound matter-of-fact?
>
>Because you can read subject lines?
That'd would probably be the reason, yes... ;)
Yes, I'm terribly, dreadfully apprehensive, but it's the way I/we've
decided to go. We've done masses and masses of talk over the last two
years (which is when we both became aware that his having had only one
sexual partner - me - while I have had many, was becoming a big issue
for our relationship), and decided that this is our least rocky
option.
And the fact that it is my gift to him, paid for by me, makes it a lot
better, somehow.
We played around with the idea of his making a friend for sex - and
that was just too scary for me to cope with, although I tried
exceptionally hard to be OK with it. Also, she pulled out when she
found out I knew and was blessing it, rather than that he was
deceiving me.
We thought about setting up a threesome with an obliging woman we
know, and while that would have been less scary for me, it would also
not help in the "getting Wolf sexual experiences that are not related
to Sarah" problem.
I honestly don't understand his apparent need for this, but I can
accept that it exists, and value our relationship highly enough to try
to address it.
I'm dreadfully (and probably irrationally) frightened that once he's
experienced sex with someone who has a lovely, young, tight body, and
who is paid to be both beautiful and really good at sex, that sex with
me won't seem worth it to him any more.
I'm grieving over the fact that I won't be the only person who know
how he looks, moves, feels, smells and tastes at certain times any
more. - although I comfort myself by reminding me that she's not going
to remember any of that a week after it happens.
I'm scared that once he's done this once, he'll decide he needs to do
it often - I don't believe I will be able to accept that. Once off is
acceptable. Maybe a few times. But not ongoing forever.
And yes, he knows just how I feel, as I know just how he feels.
So yeah. Apprehensive, but decided.
suzee
While this part:
".. someone who has a lovely, young, tight body, and who is paid to be
both beautiful and really good at sex..."
may be somewhat true, it's only on a physical level, and shouldn't
affect how he feels about on an emotional level. And the emotional
satisfaction just may outweigh the physical.
Hang in there Sarah, if you have a solid relationship, this won't rock
it as much as you think.
sue
Sarah
>While this part:
>
>".. someone who has a lovely, young, tight body, and who is paid to be
>both beautiful and really good at sex..."
>
>may be somewhat true, it's only on a physical level, and shouldn't
>affect how he feels about on an emotional level. And the emotional
>satisfaction just may outweigh the physical.
My brain agrees with you 100%.
Unfortunately my emotions and all my churny guts and stuff remain
unconvinced. ;)
>Hang in there Sarah, if you have a solid relationship, this won't rock
>it as much as you think.
I believe you.
But I'd kill for a Cerepax on the day *grin*
suzee
> suzee <su...@imbris.com> said:
>
>> While this part:
>>
>> ".. someone who has a lovely, young, tight body, and who is paid to be
>> both beautiful and really good at sex..."
>>
>> may be somewhat true, it's only on a physical level, and shouldn't
>> affect how he feels about on an emotional level. And the emotional
>> satisfaction just may outweigh the physical.
>
> My brain agrees with you 100%.
>
> Unfortunately my emotions and all my churny guts and stuff remain
> unconvinced. ;)
>
>> Hang in there Sarah, if you have a solid relationship, this won't rock
>> it as much as you think.
>
> I believe you.
>
> But I'd kill for a Cerepax on the day *grin*
<chuckle> How about some alcohol instead...?
sue
Sarah
I thought about that, but the last thing I want is to get all
revolting and vomitty for him to come home to. And I very well might.
So unless I can think of a Good Reason to be prescribed some tranqs
before the day comes, I think I'll just keep as busy as possible.
Dave
> from call themselves) for our ninth anniversary in two weeks.
> --
It was out 11th a few days ago. Now, that's a present I would really
have appreciated.
Dave
Serene Vannoy
> Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> said:
>
>> JustGB wrote:
>>> On Aug 29, 9:26 pm, Sarah <STwoUnderscor...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>>> and sending Wolf to see a Working Lady (as the ones we're choosing
>>>> from call themselves) for our ninth anniversary in two weeks.
>>> Why do I have the feeling you are terribly apprehensive about this
>>> while trying to sound matter-of-fact?
>> Because you can read subject lines?
>
> That'd would probably be the reason, yes... ;)
>
> Yes, I'm terribly, dreadfully apprehensive, but it's the way I/we've
> decided to go. We've done masses and masses of talk over the last two
> years (which is when we both became aware that his having had only one
> sexual partner - me - while I have had many, was becoming a big issue
> for our relationship), and decided that this is our least rocky
> option.
Fair enough, but I'm still kind of worried about this. *hugs*
Norton
>JustGB wrote:
>> On Aug 29, 9:26 pm, Sarah <STwoUnderscor...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>> and sending Wolf to see a Working Lady (as the ones we're choosing
>>> from call themselves) for our ninth anniversary in two weeks.
>>
>> Why do I have the feeling you are terribly apprehensive about this
>> while trying to sound matter-of-fact?
>Because you can read subject lines?
Oooh. What a clever response! Perhaps you missed what
Justy was trying to convey?
--
--- Norton
Serene Vannoy
What Justy conveyed seemed to be obvious to me. Sarah's been talking
about how apprehensive she's been all along.
Sarah
>Sarah's been talking
>about how apprehensive she's been all along.
Babbling about it, even.
(Note: I didn't read your post as a criticism, Serene, just bouncing
off it)
I know I spout off about this subject often enough to get really
really dull for some people. I apologize to those people, and am
really glad that they can just skip to the next post if they wish to.
But being able to spill my guts over this really really helps me when
I am feeling over anxious. I very much appreciate everyone who takes
the time and trouble to give me even a two word followup.
Being heard is great.
And it's all still on track, and I am feeling pretty good about it all
so far.
<3
Sarah_C
PS. I said "really" 5 times in this post. Well, six, now. Gosh.
Sarah
>Fair enough, but I'm still kind of worried about this. *hugs*
*likes hugs*
*thinks Serene would be exceptionally nice to hug*
*goes to bed*
Night!
Serene Vannoy
> Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> said:
>
>> Sarah's been talking
>> about how apprehensive she's been all along.
>
> Babbling about it, even.
>
> (Note: I didn't read your post as a criticism, Serene, just bouncing
> off it)
>
> I know I spout off about this subject often enough to get really
> really dull for some people. I apologize to those people, and am
> really glad that they can just skip to the next post if they wish to.
>
> But being able to spill my guts over this really really helps me when
> I am feeling over anxious.
Yep, I'm the same way when something's worrying me. I'm sure the people
on my livejournal advisor filters got ever so sick of me when James was
seeing that woman I had boundary issues with, but it helped me and they
said they didn't mind.
> I very much appreciate everyone who takes
> the time and trouble to give me even a two word followup.
>
> Being heard is great.
>
> And it's all still on track, and I am feeling pretty good about it all
> so far.
Yay.
>
> <3
>
> Sarah_C
>
> PS. I said "really" 5 times in this post. Well, six, now. Gosh.
Heh. "Really" might be my most-overused word.
tora...@googlemail.com
I am not really sure what to think about your post. I am in the same
situation as your man, except that we have been living together for 20
years and that I never discussed this matter with my wife. I don't
think that you have much to fear from this experience, but obviously I
do not know. I would think that your man will want to repeat that
experience a few times, however. Maybe going to a sex club together
would be another possibility?
In any case, I think that your decision is a great show of love. I am
truely impressed.
> I honestly don't understand his apparent need for this, but I can
> accept that it exists, and value our relationship highly enough to try
> to address it.
>
I think that I understand his need, being in the same situation. It
doesn't really have anything to do with you.
> I'm dreadfully (and probably irrationally) frightened that once he's
> experienced sex with someone who has a lovely, young, tight body, and
> who is paid to be both beautiful and really good at sex, that sex with
> me won't seem worth it to him any more.
>
That is probably irrationnal. I don't think it is about the other
woman being more attractive or younger.
tora...@googlemail.com
assuming that because your man and myself had a somewhat similar
sexual history we both would have the same motives (if I were to ask
something like that from my wife, that is). For me the motive would be
curiosity, but your man could have entirely different motives. In
truth, I really don't know.
Still this is a rather extraordinary situation...
Sarah
Hi toramjero,
>I am not really sure what to think about your post. I am in the same
>situation as your man, except that we have been living together for 20
>years and that I never discussed this matter with my wife. I don't
>think that you have much to fear from this experience, but obviously I
>do not know. I would think that your man will want to repeat that
>experience a few times, however. Maybe going to a sex club together
>would be another possibility?
>In any case, I think that your decision is a great show of love. I am
>truely impressed.
>
>> I honestly don't understand his apparent need for this, but I can
>> accept that it exists, and value our relationship highly enough to try
>> to address it.
>>
>
>I think that I understand his need, being in the same situation. It
>doesn't really have anything to do with you.
>
>> I'm dreadfully (and probably irrationally) frightened that once he's
>> experienced sex with someone who has a lovely, young, tight body, and
>> who is paid to be both beautiful and really good at sex, that sex with
>> me won't seem worth it to him any more.
>>
>
>That is probably irrationnal. I don't think it is about the other
>woman being more attractive or younger.
I wanted to thank you for your post, and to let you know your comments
have been really helpful to me.
Countdown: 11 days.
Feeling: more good than bad.
tora...@googlemail.com
> toramj...@googlemail.com said:
>
> Hi toramjero,
>
>
>
> >I am not really sure what to think about your post. I am in the same
> >situation as your man, except that we have been living together for 20
> >years and that I never discussed this matter with my wife. I don't
> >think that you have much to fear from this experience, but obviously I
> >do not know. I would think that your man will want to repeat that
> >experience a few times, however. Maybe going to a sex club together
> >would be another possibility?
> >In any case, I think that your decision is a great show of love. I am
> >truely impressed.
>
> >> I honestly don't understand his apparent need for this, but I can
> >> accept that it exists, and value our relationship highly enough to try
> >> to address it.
>
> >I think that I understand his need, being in the same situation. It
> >doesn't really have anything to do with you.
>
> >> I'm dreadfully (and probably irrationally) frightened that once he's
> >> experienced sex with someone who has a lovely, young, tight body, and
> >> who is paid to be both beautiful and really good at sex, that sex with
> >> me won't seem worth it to him any more.
>
> >That is probably irrationnal. I don't think it is about the other
> >woman being more attractive or younger.
>
> I wanted to thank you for your post, and to let you know your comments
> have been really helpful to me.
>
You are welcome. It is perfectly normal that you are apprehensive, but
if you have lived together for so long and talk so well I suppose that
there are no problems that your couple cannot sort out. ;)
Sarah
Sarah <STwoUnde...@bigpond.net.au> said:
>Countdown: 11 days.
>Feeling: more good than bad.
A really nice email from an SSGer made me start thinking, so I am
going to update you all, whether you are interested or not.
Countdown: 9 days
Feeling: Mentally and emotionally exhausted.
So we went to a birthday party last Saturday night. I'm an extreme
introvert, and parties wear me out. I don;t like thinking about going
to them, but once I am there I generally warm up after a while and
have a good time.
So we went to this party. I drank a bottle of champagne in about an
hour and a half - so I was fairly drunk, but not dreadfully, or
embarrassingly, or terribly noticeably so. Everything anyone said
about anything was bound to have a word or phrase in it that jogged
both of our minds back to The Plan, and by the bottom of the bottle I
was feeling really... thin and stretched.
I got a little teary (not weepy, just extra shiny eyes sort of thing)
which didn't impress Wolf, he mouthed "want to call it off?" at me,
and I said no and he gave me a Look... but I went off somewhere quiet
for a smoke and he went off to do that whole mingling thing some
people know how to do, and we settled down.
After a while of his not being next to me (that makes it much easier
not to think about The Plan) I found the other two smokers at the
party, and started talking to them. I'm fascinating to Wolf's friends,
because I am just over a decade older than them, and I have children,
and none of them do... this nice couple and I spent a lot of time
chattering about my kids and their plans for kids and how sexy our
friend is looking and blah blah blah. Was quite nice.
An hour or so into this chatter, Wolf SMSed me from inside the party.
"Epiphany!" he said "I don't want to lose the fantasy."
This made the entire inside of my brain go silent. It's still mostly
semi-stunned, not knowing how to address this.
(Note: My use of Think and Feel are quite deliberate. If I say "I
think" something, it means I have thought about it and think it is
likely to be a true thing. If I say "I feel" something, I am talking
about my reactions, without reference to how likely they are to be
true.)
Part of me feels Wolf decided to have his "epiphany" to avoid having
to make the booking and turn up, cos he's shy, and that's scary stuff.
In fact, I am close to Thinking this as well as Feeling it.
Part of me feels he decided to have his "epiphany" as a way of calling
it off (purely for Sarah's benefit) without it being Sarah's Fault,
but that he'll resent me for it anyway if he doesn't go ahead.
Part of me feels he's just telling the truth, and he's worried that if
he fucks this woman, and it's not Ace, he'll somehow have spoiled
things for himself, in some way, forever.
He was supposed to enquire about the woman's availability today, but
he/we (more he than we, but still) decided to leave it for now. We're
going to have our anniversary weekend away, and on the following
Monday, we're housesitting for a family in a suburb over an hour from
home for a week. The Plan was to be carried out the next Wednesday -
so we would have time to just Be Together for a couple of days
afterwards - and we're going to decide on the Monday whether or not
to call.
Here's the thing.
We've built up to his being going to have sex with someone else four
times now.
The anticipation kills me each time. I don't know whether I can cope
with it a fifth time, without KNOWING what happens next.
I know I am monogamous. I know I am jealous. I know jealousy is a bad
thing. I know that since I love him I should be delighted by anything
that makes him happier. But I also know that I don;t want him to kiss
people who aren;t me. I know I don't want his penis inside them, or
his hands on them, or anything like that. I try to want it, for his
sake, because I know how much it upsets him he's only been with one
person. But I really don;t want it.
On the other hand, I can get horny over it. No, that's not quite
right. If I am already horny, I can come from thinking about it in the
right way - but it's not the sort of orgasm that makes you burst out
laughing.
I've said before I am scared of how he will feel about me afterwards,
but what about how I will feel about him?
Will I be cruel to him? Will I bring it up every time we squabble?
Will I find him somehow soiled? Will I be reluctant to let him see me
naked? I don't feel I will, and I don't think I will, but I can't
know.
I think, if it doesn't happen this time, it's either going to have to
not happen at all, or not be planned. I think, feel, hope that if he
called me and said "It's done. It was great. I love you." I'd cope a
lot better. The whole not knowing thing would be dealt with.
I just wish it were over and done with, so I could look at my compass
and work out where North is again.
I wish he'd call, and go, and get laid, and come back to me. And that
then it would be over.
If you got this far, congratulations, and many thanks.
Cheers,
Sarah_C
Sam Murai
"Sarah" <STwoUnde...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:rj4ac4l05v6n6lb69...@4ax.com...
> TEXT CRIT. Sorry.
>
> Sarah <STwoUnde...@bigpond.net.au> said:
>
>>Countdown: 11 days.
>>Feeling: more good than bad.
>
> A really nice email from an SSGer made me start thinking, so I am
> going to update you all, whether you are interested or not.
>
> Countdown: 9 days
> Feeling: Mentally and emotionally exhausted.
>
> So we went to a birthday party last Saturday night. I'm an extreme
> introvert, and parties wear me out. I don;t like thinking about going
> to them, but once I am there I generally warm up after a while and
> have a good time.
...
Have been away from SSG for a short while, let's see, do we bottom-post?
Anyway, I just caught this thread halfway and I'm opening my big mouth so I
hope I don't put my foot in it at the same time by jumping to conclusions. I
gather that it's about Sarah's other half wanting an experience with another
woman and Sarah sort of consenting to it but with mixed emotions...
First, if I may get on my own soapbox for a moment, even if nobody is
stopping to listen except myself, I want to say, whatever happened to that
sacred marriage vow? You know, "to have and to hold, to love and to cherish"
etc?
I mean I'm not a religious person but I do go for the not coveting thy
neighbour's wife and no adultery thing. And that's not for lack of interest
either. I don't pretend I don't notice a hot young babe or a supermodel on
TV whatever but I think that's what makes my vow of monogamy more special.
It's said that courage is not a lack of fear but mastery of it, so too is
faithfullness not a lack of lust, but mastery of it. I enjoy looking at
glamour images of hot women but I also have become good at chanelling my
lust back at my own wife. And she is the only person whom I've had sex with
(not counting a hand job from a former girlfriend!).
Either of us would be insanely jealous if we had intentional intimate
contact with someone else (we even prefer my wife to choose female doctors.
I still find recollections of male doctors probing her a bit disturbing even
though it was not in a sexual context).
Having said all that, I realise, especially from all the diversity of people
on this newsgroup, that it's only my paradigm and my values.
All the concerns that Sarah has... I guess that would depend on what his
motive was in the first place, and I mean from an emotional level, not just
a conscious or physical level. For example, what is he looking for elsewhere
that is not being fulfilled already?
Sorry, I don't mean to add to Sarah's concerns. I think it's really giving
of her to expose herself to such an emotional risk and uncertainty for the
benefit of him.
I'm really fascinated to know the outcome and any updates from Sarah...
-Sam
tora...@googlemail.com
I agree about the emotional problem part. I do not agree about the
"lusting another woman" part. For Sarah's man, it is not that he is
attracted to another woman, read: a particular one. Any woman will do.
He is attracted to an idea. Are you jealous of ideas?
Jealousy is a feeling I don't know, by the way. So people are
different indeed.
tora...@googlemail.com
"countdown", it was obvious that you were very apprehensive. The
problem is that you put yourself to an enormous pressure by both
choosing a very symbolic date (an anniversary) and a date that was a
rather long time in the future. There is no better way to increase
anxiety.
This, and you have not cleared the situation. You don't know WHY he
wants that. You don't know WHAT he expects out of it. The unknowns
make you afraid. You have doubts about yourself and your attractivity
compared to the other woman.
But you have a very positive quality: you are ready to face your
fears. My wife is not.
I am going to sketch my story for you. More details only via E-mail,
this is probably already too much for a public forum. We are in a
remarquably similar situation: I am also younger than my wife (6
years), I also have no prior experience while my wife has lead a
normal love life before we met. After about 12 years, I had the same
questions than your husband. What motivated me was curiosity (and as I
said your man's motivations may be different).
We do not talk as well as you do (obviously half my fault). Still, I
tried to make some of my questions and desires apparent. It was
immediately clear that my wife was afraid and not prepared to face her
fears. So, because I saw no solutions, I tried to repress my desires.
After a couple of years, I became severely depressive. I am better
now, but I am still under treatment.
So, yes: you have a relationship problem. And, frankly, when I type
those words, I realise that so do I.
Do not try to bury your problem. Do something on the planned day. For
example, go to a sex club, make love in the open, etc... Anything, but
something sexual that you never did before to show that you still want
to go forward.
You failed 4 times by attacking the problem frontally. You'll have to
find a different approach. But whatever you do, you'll have to answer
the questions about him, to decide what kind of relationship you will
have after (because it will be different), and to come clear with your
fears. I am sorry it is so.
suzee
> I am not surprised that the project failed. When I read about the
> "countdown", it was obvious that you were very apprehensive. The
> problem is that you put yourself to an enormous pressure by both
> choosing a very symbolic date (an anniversary) and a date that was a
> rather long time in the future. There is no better way to increase
> anxiety.
> This, and you have not cleared the situation. You don't know WHY he
> wants that. You don't know WHAT he expects out of it. The unknowns
> make you afraid. You have doubts about yourself and your attractivity
> compared to the other woman.
Very good observations. The anniversary is emotional, the long lead time
gives you too much time for overthinking/emoting about it all, Sarah.
sue
Sam Murai
<tora...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:ba4dd5e8-74c0-4c18...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
....
When I use the term lust, I don't necessarily mean towards an individual. I
mean temptation / desire to sexually experience a woman, and in this
context, another woman outside the covenant of marriage.
So not 'jealous' of an idea in general but jealous of the idea that one's
spouse / partner / significant other wants to have sexual relations with
someone other than yourself.
I think it would be natural to have these feelings if something special that
was only meant to be shared between a couple was suddenly devalued by
sharing with others. Depending on your values, that could be anywhere from
an intimate kiss to revealing your modesty, to sex or displaying love for
someone else.
-Sam
darklily
> <toramj...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
You know Sam, not everyone shares this same outlook. In fact, some
might find it offensive (being told that having more than one love/
partner means that their relationships are less special and they put
less value on them and sex).
Darklily
JustGB
I don't think Sam was implying that everyone shares this outlook. I
feel the same way as Sam does, but appreciate that other people don't
find fidelity in matters of sex of as great importance as Sam does or
I do. I hear it expressed here and have no reason to believe people
are making it up even though I find it difficult to fathom. I just
know that I could not live with a situation like Sarah's.
JustGB
toramjero
> <toramj...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
Let me rephrase that using your own words from the other post, then:
"jealous that one's spouse (etc) does not master their desires and
channels them back towards me". Now, this "channeling back" is an
interesting concept, but there is a catch: it presupposes that one can
only experience desire in one direction.
Here, however, it is rather obvious that Wolf loves and desires Sarah
(or they would not talk so well). So Wolf desires in two directions. I
think that it is an important point.
> I think it would be natural to have these feelings if something special that
> was only meant to be shared between a couple was suddenly devalued by
> sharing with others. Depending on your values, that could be anywhere from
> an intimate kiss to revealing your modesty, to sex or displaying love for
> someone else.
>
Why would sharing something with other devaluate it?
Anonymous Jack
On Aug 31, 12:02 am, Sarah <STwoUnderscor...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> And the fact that it is my gift to him, paid for by me, makes it a lot
> better, somehow.
You are an amazingly beautiful person for even going this far.
> I honestly don't understand his apparent need for this, but I can
> accept that it exists, and value our relationship highly enough to try
> to address it.
Curiosity, I expect. Please forgive the simple analogy, but: apple
pie. Warm, delicious apple pie, fantastic, delicious, all I could
ever want. Hey, what's this "lemon meringue" thing?
> I'm dreadfully (and probably irrationally) frightened that once he's
> experienced sex with someone who has a lovely, young, tight body, and
> who is paid to be both beautiful and really good at sex, that sex with
> me won't seem worth it to him any more.
My two cents... no lovely, young tight body is as good (to me) as a
good blowjob... I've not had a sexual experience that compares to an
experienced fellatrix. Yet, having experienced some truly fantastic
oral sex, I married and will be monogamous to a woman who cannot bring
herself to put her mouth there. I don't think you have any reason to
worry, assuming that he is generally the monogamous, loving type. The
fact that you discuss this with him makes me think that he is
trustworthy.
Most men are good at separating a phsyical act from the emotional
entaglement... it'll just be a nice experience for him, a "well,
that's what it was like" moment. Maybe he'll enjoy the physical
experience more, like I enjoy receiving oral sex more than PIV, but
then he moves on and that act is in the past.
> I'm scared that once he's done this once, he'll decide he needs to do
> it often - I don't believe I will be able to accept that. Once off is
> acceptable. Maybe a few times. But not ongoing forever.
Maybe it would help to think of this as a "time warp" event. Would it
have bothered you if he had previous short-term, primarily physical
and not emotional relationships with othe women before he met you?
Certainly, some of them would have been younger than you, tighter-
bodied, good at sex and whatnot. Then those relationships ended, and
he met you. Would you be worried about those previous relationships?
Worried that he may want to go back and have sex with his previous
partners?
This is exactly like that, except it happened *after* he met you.
Best wishes to you on a happy, uneventful turn of events :-)
Jana
<snip>
>
> An hour or so into this chatter, Wolf SMSed me from inside the party.
> "Epiphany!" he said "I don't want to lose the fantasy."
>
> This made the entire inside of my brain go silent. It's still mostly
> semi-stunned, not knowing how to address this.
>
<snip>
> Part of me feels Wolf decided to have his "epiphany" to avoid having
> to make the booking and turn up, cos he's shy, and that's scary stuff.
> In fact, I am close to Thinking this as well as Feeling it.
>
> Part of me feels he decided to have his "epiphany" as a way of calling
> it off (purely for Sarah's benefit) without it being Sarah's Fault,
> but that he'll resent me for it anyway if he doesn't go ahead.
>
> Part of me feels he's just telling the truth, and he's worried that if
> he fucks this woman, and it's not Ace, he'll somehow have spoiled
> things for himself, in some way, forever.
>
I don't know about his reasons, but I have been in a similar situation
and I have the feeling a traveled a somewhat similar path. So my first
sexual relationship lasted nine years and for most of those nine years I
thought he would be my only sex partner ever. There was quite a long
period when I was curious about diversity of partners and since monogamy
is important to me, now that I think back to it, I have the feeling I
was going through something akin to a grieving process. Just letting the
idea go, slowly, with ups and downs. In the end I was quite happy about
it but it took me a while to focus on the fact that the sex was good,
that I was satisfied, that what I would be looking for in another
partner was pretty much what I already had and that for that reason
there's no real incentive to go out an look for more with all the risks
that entails.
The fantasies I didn't let go of, nor did I ever want to.
I hope, for your sake, that Wolf is going through something similar.
Because I see that it's tearing you up.
And by the way, I love reading your posts. They're deep, warm,
analytical, clearly written and delve on some very real issues many
people don't even consider seriously discussing.
Jana
Sarah
Tom Allen
> Sarah <STwoUnde...@bigpond.net.au> said:
>
>
> .... he backed out.
::raises hand::
Um... can I have his turn?
--
Tom Allen
http://twitter.com/taomlin
http://vanillaedge.wordpress.com/
"I don't have multiple orgasms, myself. I am, however, known to be a
carrier."
JustGB
It's the proverbial genie. You let it out of the bottle and, no
matter what it does or doesn't do, you can never get it back in
again. I hope that you, both of you, can to live with that hovering
genie and push it further and further back into the corner.
JustGB
Sarah
>It's the proverbial genie. You let it out of the bottle and, no
>matter what it does or doesn't do, you can never get it back in
>again. I hope that you, both of you, can to live with that hovering
>genie and push it further and further back into the corner.
It came out of the bottle two years ago, Justy. We're living with it
just fine.
Thank you.
No doubt I will burble all over ssg tomorrow or in the next few days.
Night.
toramjero
That is probably a good decision. If you want to experience more than
one sexual partner, you have to do it when you are young and still
uncommitted. If you don't do it, it is just your fault. You can't just
expect your partner to correct your past. I also regret having taken
that decision in the past (although it wasn't a "decision", some men
are just more successful than others), but I feel no right to burden
my wife with things for which she is not responsible. It is not her
fault.
When you are married, you have to make some compromises. You have to
accept that you won't do whatever your partner does not agree that you
do. Some couples agree on external partners but if one of the two does
not want it you can't do that, whatever your desire is. It is an
uncomfortable situation, because you can't forget your desires even if
you try to forget them, but that is the price to pay. You have to take
no for an answer.
Serene Vannoy
> Sarah wrote:
>> Sarah <STwoUnde...@bigpond.net.au> said:
>>
>>
>> ... he backed out.
>>
>
> That is probably a good decision. If you want to experience more than
> one sexual partner, you have to do it when you are young and still
> uncommitted.
Nope.
Serene, still 42, committed, and having (great!) sex with multiple partners
toramjero
> Sarah wrote:
Maybe I'll explain a bit more. What I think is that for each choice
there is a price to pay.
Wolf and I did not take the chance to experience sex when we were in
our twenties. It's our fault, not our wife's fault. She wasn't even
there. The price to pay for that choice is that we will always ignore
what it is to be in love at 20. What it is to discover sex together
with a woman for which it is a first time as well. We missed the easy
times going out with friends, the fun, the silly talks between young
men. We also missed the emotions, the roller coasters of being in love
and breaking up, the first time you march hand in hand with someone.
In exchange we got years of masturbation, loneliness and fear that
someone will make fun of you for still being a virgin.
Now, Wolf and I have a loving woman. Wolf wants to get some
experience. The price to pay is to make that loving woman unhappy. I
don't know how my wife would react (I haven't asked), but I suppose it
would be the same. Plus a divorce, probably. But in exchange you don't
get your youth back. You may get to know whether other women feel or
taste different. You can try to go to the meat market and pull women,
but you have 20 years more and that is the difference between a player
and an old pervert. And you still don't know how to "pull women", you
never managed to do that in your 20s, you are not going to suddenly
have women at your feet. You can go to "working women" and pay sex by
the hour. It's not the same.
What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
toramjero
> toramjero wrote:
> > Sarah wrote:
>
> >> ... he backed out.
>
> > That is probably a good decision. If you want to experience more than
> > one sexual partner, you have to do it when you are young and still
> > uncommitted.
>
> Nope.
>
> Serene, still 42, committed, and having (great!) sex with multiple partners
>
>
Oops! Sorry. I did not want to imply a judgment of value. You can
still experience multiple partners when you are committed if your
partner doesn't mind. But in most cases (the vast majority I believe)
the partner minds. Just as Sarah minds. What do you do then?
Besides, I think that we are discussing apples and oranges here. I
suppose that you already had experienced multiple partners when you
were younger and before you were committed. I was talking about people
who have not.
I think that there is an important difference here. In the first case
(experienced people), you can tell your partner that you want to keep
living in the same way when you first met them. In the second case,
people want to correct their past. They could have been fooling around
in their twenties as most people have, but they have not (for whatever
reason). Later, suddenly, they want to correct that. This is the wrong
part: you can't correct the past. You just have to admit that you
missed that experience and that you never ever are going to get it.
Tom Allen
> But in exchange you don't
> get your youth back.
That's fine. I think I'm even better now ;-)
> You may get to know whether other women feel or
> taste different. You can try to go to the meat market and pull women,
> but you have 20 years more and that is the difference between a player
> and an old pervert.
::blink blink::
What? Somebody who is 40 or 50 or 60 is a pervert for trying to pick up
women?
Granted that most 50 year olds would be seen as such if they were at a
goth rave trying to pick up 22 year olds. But at a sports bar trying to
pick up 35 year olds? Or some other venue?
> And you still don't know how to "pull women", you
> never managed to do that in your 20s, you are not going to suddenly
> have women at your feet.
Heh. I beg to differ. Well, not that women are throwing themselves at
me, but I seem to be getting more attention now, and have more
flirtation now than I did when I was 20.
A lot of that has to do with being more confident in myself and more
comfortable with who I am as a person.
Plus, I carry a cucumber in my pocket.
> You can go to "working women" and pay sex by
> the hour. It's not the same.
>
> What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
Very much so.
Jana
> toramjero wrote:
<snip>
>>
>> What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
>
> Very much so.
>
I don't!
toramjero
> toramjero wrote:
>
> > You can try to go to the meat market and pull women,
> > but you have 20 years more and that is the difference between a player
> > and an old pervert.
>
> ::blink blink::
>
> What? Somebody who is 40 or 50 or 60 is a pervert for trying to pick up
> women?
>
> Granted that most 50 year olds would be seen as such if they were at a
> goth rave trying to pick up 22 year olds. But at a sports bar trying to
> pick up 35 year olds? Or some other venue?
>
OK. My apologies again. I was not trying to imply that anyone here was
a pervert. I was talking about ME. I would feel a pervert if I went to
a dance club to pick up 20-something women.
Last time I looked, there were no 35 years old women in the bars
around my house. Only much younger people (male and female) and men of
my age and older.
> > And you still don't know how to "pull women", you
>
> > never managed to do that in your 20s, you are not going to suddenly
> > have women at your feet.
>
> Heh. I beg to differ. Well, not that women are throwing themselves at
> me, but I seem to be getting more attention now, and have more
> flirtation now than I did when I was 20.
>
> A lot of that has to do with being more confident in myself and more
> comfortable with who I am as a person.
>
> Plus, I carry a cucumber in my pocket.
>
I appreciate your sense of humour.
> > You can go to "working women" and pay sex by
> > the hour. It's not the same.
>
> > What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
>
> Very much so.
>
Thank you for the answer.
> --
> Tom Allenhttp://twitter.com/taomlinhttp://vanillaedge.wordpress.com/
>
> "I don't have multiple orgasms, myself. I am, however, known to be a
> carrier."
We have that in common: I don't have mulitple orgasms either.
Serene Vannoy
> toramjero wrote:
> > And you still don't know how to "pull women", you
>> never managed to do that in your 20s, you are not going to suddenly
>> have women at your feet.
>
> Heh. I beg to differ. Well, not that women are throwing themselves at
> me,
1) Because they don't want to risk the Wrath of Mrs. Tom.
2) Hmph. What am I, chopped liver?
serene
darklily
Ummm...no. I think you are digging a deeper hole here. This absolutely
does not describe the reality of the relationship that the DH and I
have. We were both virgins when we met each other and were each
other's firsts. We didn't really have many other sexual encounters
before each other. We dated exclusively and got married. We didn't
change our views on relationships till several years after we were
married. We are absolutely committed to each other, but that does not
mean we can't have other relationships.
Darklily (married 15 years, with DH 21 years total...concurrent
relationship(defunct) with L for 5 years, dating M for one month now)
Tom Allen
Yes, you do. How many other women have you tried?
:-)
Tom Allen
> On Sep 23, 4:47 pm, Tom Allen <taomli...@SPAMsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Granted that most 50 year olds would be seen as such if they were at a
>> goth rave trying to pick up 22 year olds. But at a sports bar trying to
>> pick up 35 year olds? Or some other venue?
>>
>
> OK. My apologies again. I was not trying to imply that anyone here was
> a pervert. I was talking about ME. I would feel a pervert if I went to
> a dance club to pick up 20-something women.
> Last time I looked, there were no 35 years old women in the bars
> around my house. Only much younger people (male and female) and men of
> my age and older.
There are always places where slightly older people hang out. They arent
the most popular or well advertised, but they are out there.
And too, trying to pick up a 20 year old when you're 50 is not the same
as dating a woman who is 40. At some point, the both of you know why
you're there - you're not playing some game anymore.
>> And you still don't know how to "pull women", you
>> never managed to do that in your 20s, you are not going to suddenly
>> have women at your feet.
>>
>> Heh. I beg to differ. Well, not that women are throwing themselves at
>> me, but I seem to be getting more attention now, and have more
>> flirtation now than I did when I was 20.
I should have added: Dammit!
>> A lot of that has to do with being more confident in myself and more
>> comfortable with who I am as a person.
>>
>> Plus, I carry a cucumber in my pocket.
>
> I appreciate your sense of humour.
What? Oh, the cucumber? No, it really works. Somebody told me about that
years ago, and it's amazing.
Of course, I wish that they had told me to make sure you carry it in the
*front* of your pants. Took me months before I figured that one out.
--
Tom Allen
http://twitter.com/taomlin
toramjero
Of course, I don't pretend that I know the full range of choices and
solutions human couples have. I am glad this works for you. Maybe it
works because you were both virgins and therefore both interested in
new experiences? I don't know. In Sarah's case, it is obvious that she
is upset. In my wife's case, I know that she is strongly against it.
And she has no interest to go to other partners (she says so), she got
that experience before me. Besides this is an entirely theoretical
discussion. I don't have a hord of women throwing themselves at my
feet as Tom has... ;)
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
> What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
Yes. :) (Well, I find that each individual person tastes different
even from one spot on their skin or body to another, but yes, different
women do taste different from each other.)
.
Tom Allen
> Tom Allen wrote:
>> toramjero wrote:
>
>> > And you still don't know how to "pull women", you
>>> never managed to do that in your 20s, you are not going to suddenly
>>> have women at your feet.
>>
>> Heh. I beg to differ. Well, not that women are throwing themselves at me,
>
> 1) Because they don't want to risk the Wrath of Mrs. Tom.
Yeah, some people are funny like that.
> 2) Hmph. What am I, chopped liver?
::bats eyes::
I'll bet you say that to all the guys who a) sweet-talk you, b) have a
cute butt, and c) know their way around a kitchen.
Jana
> Jana wrote:
>> Tom Allen wrote:
>>> toramjero wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>>
>>>> What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
>>>
>>> Very much so.
>>>
>>
>> I don't!
>
> Yes, you do.
>
Ahem.
::blush::
He's just guessing!
Serene Vannoy
> Serene Vannoy wrote:
>
>> 2) Hmph. What am I, chopped liver?
>
> ::bats eyes::
> I'll bet you say that to all the guys who a) sweet-talk you, b) have a
> cute butt, and c) know their way around a kitchen.
>
>
Yeah, 'cause there are SO many of those guys. ;-)
Serene
Tom Allen
> Tom Allen wrote:
>> Serene Vannoy wrote:
>
>>
>>> 2) Hmph. What am I, chopped liver?
>>
>> ::bats eyes::
>> I'll bet you say that to all the guys who a) sweet-talk you, b) have a
>> cute butt, and c) know their way around a kitchen.
>>
>>
>
> Yeah, 'cause there are SO many of those guys. ;-)
Around you, I'll bet there's lots :->
-Elizabeth-
>
> What? Oh, the cucumber? No, it really works. Somebody told me about that
> years ago, and it's amazing.
>
> Of course, I wish that they had told me to make sure you carry it in the
> *front* of your pants. Took me months before I figured that one out.
I suppose, when the cucumber is discovered to be a cucumber, you can
always say, "Anyone for cucumber sandwiches."
At least such a chop wouldn't be so terrible.
-Elizabeth
toramjero
There is a thread about "straight women packing", we could always
start one about "straight men packing" as well...
toramjero
> toramjero wrote:
> > On Sep 23, 4:47 pm, Tom Allen <taomli...@SPAMsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >> Granted that most 50 year olds would be seen as such if they were at a
> >> goth rave trying to pick up 22 year olds. But at a sports bar trying to
> >> pick up 35 year olds? Or some other venue?
> >>
> >
> > OK. My apologies again. I was not trying to imply that anyone here was
> > a pervert. I was talking about ME. I would feel a pervert if I went to
> > a dance club to pick up 20-something women.
> > Last time I looked, there were no 35 years old women in the bars
> > around my house. Only much younger people (male and female) and men of
> > my age and older.
>
> There are always places where slightly older people hang out. They arent
> the most popular or well advertised, but they are out there.
>
> And too, trying to pick up a 20 year old when you're 50 is not the same
> as dating a woman who is 40. At some point, the both of you know why
> you're there - you're not playing some game anymore.
>
>
I'm comig back to your description of women in their 40s or 50s,
because I find it rather puzzling. You seem to imply that they know
what they want and that you, as a man, can be relatively direct about
what you seek.
I posted in another thread that, in my experience, ANY expression of
sexual desire or sexual needs is considered unappropriate, shocking or
downright rude. I will give an example, which happened to me about 3
months ago. I have a colleague at work who divorced about a year ago.
I was with a group of women on that day and in the course of the
conversation the subject came on that man. One woman wondered why he
was not already remarried. I answered, in jest, that maybe he wanted
to experience bachelor's life for a few years.
I was really shocked by the reactions. They all ranged somewhat
between outrage and disgust. From the top of my head:
-"men a real slaves of their animal instincts"
-"I hope that he goes to prostitutes and does not break the hearth of
good women"
-"a woman who accepts that is not respecting herself".
One of the woman, who is divorced and has been seeking to remarry for
2 years expressed her frustration that "men only seek sex and don't
want any commitment any more". I am normaly a patient man, but I asked
her directly whether she expected this colleague to remarry right away
or to wait like a month until love at first sight stroke him. We did
not part in very good terms. Since that day they avoid me like some
kind of pervert. I should say that I am not really seeking further
contacts myself.
But this has generally been my experience of women in their 40s. I
don't go around all day asking them what they think about sex, of
course, but this is a general example of the type of comments I hear
from time to time, albeit in the more extreme range (which is why I
remember it).
Dave
> toramjero <toramj...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
>
> Yes. :) (Well, I find that each individual person tastes different
> even from one spot on their skin or body to another,
Especially with respect to oral sex. This is not a statistically
significant sample, but the 2 girl friends I had who were strict
vegetarians, tasted a lot sweeter.
Dave
Serene Vannoy
> Serene Vannoy wrote:
>> Tom Allen wrote:
>>> Serene Vannoy wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> 2) Hmph. What am I, chopped liver?
>>>
>>> ::bats eyes::
>>> I'll bet you say that to all the guys who a) sweet-talk you, b) have
>>> a cute butt, and c) know their way around a kitchen.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, 'cause there are SO many of those guys. ;-)
>
> Around you, I'll bet there's lots :->
>
Aww, I'd smooch you, but there's that Mrs.-Tom thing. :-)
Serene Vannoy
My ex-wife said she could tell the difference when I went from being a
vegan to eating animal foods.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>My ex-wife said she could tell the difference when I went from being a
>vegan to eating animal foods.
Did she ever explain what constituted that difference? I've heard that Chinese
people claim they can smell meat on Westerners.
Orlando
Tom Allen
> Tom Allen wrote:
>> toramjero wrote:
>>> On Sep 23, 4:47 pm, Tom Allen <taomli...@SPAMsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> Granted that most 50 year olds would be seen as such if they were at a
>>>> goth rave trying to pick up 22 year olds. But at a sports bar trying to
>>>> pick up 35 year olds? Or some other venue?
>>>>
>>> OK. My apologies again. I was not trying to imply that anyone here was
>>> a pervert. I was talking about ME. I would feel a pervert if I went to
>>> a dance club to pick up 20-something women.
>>> Last time I looked, there were no 35 years old women in the bars
>>> around my house. Only much younger people (male and female) and men of
>>> my age and older.
>> There are always places where slightly older people hang out. They arent
>> the most popular or well advertised, but they are out there.
>>
>> And too, trying to pick up a 20 year old when you're 50 is not the same
>> as dating a woman who is 40. At some point, the both of you know why
>> you're there - you're not playing some game anymore.
>>
>>
>
> I'm comig back to your description of women in their 40s or 50s,
> because I find it rather puzzling. You seem to imply that they know
> what they want and that you, as a man, can be relatively direct about
> what you seek.
Well, sort of. Being married - which is why Serene doesn't throw herself
at me (those damn ethics) - I rarely get *overly* flirtatious with women
in my peer groups because I don't want them getting the wrong idea.
However, I'm fortunate that *some* of the women I know are able to be
direct about what they want, and are able to have frank discussions
about sexuality and relationships.
> I posted in another thread that, in my experience, ANY expression of
> sexual desire or sexual needs is considered unappropriate, shocking or
> downright rude. I will give an example, which happened to me about 3
> months ago. I have a colleague at work who divorced about a year ago.
> I was with a group of women on that day and in the course of the
> conversation the subject came on that man. One woman wondered why he
> was not already remarried. I answered, in jest, that maybe he wanted
> to experience bachelor's life for a few years.
>
> I was really shocked by the reactions. They all ranged somewhat
> between outrage and disgust. From the top of my head:
> -"men a real slaves of their animal instincts"
> -"I hope that he goes to prostitutes and does not break the hearth of
> good women"
> -"a woman who accepts that is not respecting herself".
Okay, let me say this about that: Your experience shows a statistical
slice of the population, just as my own does. Obviously, there are some
of both kinds. However, all women are not like your cow-orkers.
My wife has a friend who has always been dismissive of sexuality. She's
now divorced (big surprise) and is beginning to discover that a lot of
"nice" guys want to get laid. She's finally beginning to reconcile the
idea that a guy can be "nice," i.e., have a job, not be a jerk, pays his
bills, is respectful, intelligent, etc., and can also have an appetite
for parking the sausage bus in tuna town.
Oh Gawd - I'm sorry, but I ran across that expression the other day and
I've been cracking up ever since.
Anyway, she has another friend who has always had a more adventurous
attitude, and who is now divorced. This friend is now thinking that
she's "giving away" her respect by having sex, and so now is learning to
hold back. I don't get it, but if it makes her feel better, then, well,
at least I'm not dating her.
Both women have different attitudes, yet neither are representative of
*all* women.
> One of the woman, who is divorced and has been seeking to remarry for
> 2 years expressed her frustration that "men only seek sex and don't
> want any commitment any more". I am normaly a patient man, but I asked
> her directly whether she expected this colleague to remarry right away
> or to wait like a month until love at first sight stroke him. We did
> not part in very good terms. Since that day they avoid me like some
> kind of pervert. I should say that I am not really seeking further
> contacts myself.
Some women just have a bad opinion of men in general. I tend to believe
that such persons tend to seek out their own kind, which is why you'll
find clusters of them. Don't allow them to sour your perspective.
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
> Dave wrote:
>> On Sep 24, 10:24 am, Irfon-Kim Ahmad <ir...@ambienautica.com> wrote:
>>> toramjero <toramj...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
>>> Yes. :) (Well, I find that each individual person tastes different
>>> even from one spot on their skin or body to another,
>>
>> Especially with respect to oral sex. This is not a statistically
>> significant sample, but the 2 girl friends I had who were strict
>> vegetarians, tasted a lot sweeter.
>
> My ex-wife said she could tell the difference when I went from being a
> vegan to eating animal foods.
I know that (and this is jumping genders here, I suppose) the one guy I
was with who ate a *lot* of junk food and fried foods had a really oily
taste and texture to his pre-cum.
I don't think any of my female partners have had wildly different diets
from each other, so I haven't been able to put a pattern to it. I have
noticed that some people's tastes change slightly over time.
.
Sam Murai
"JustGB" <getti...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8bc38d66-0778-4624...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 11, 2:23 pm, darklily <darkli...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 10, 2:34 pm, "Sam Murai" <murai.samnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
...
> > So not 'jealous' of an idea in general but jealous of the idea that
> > one's
> > spouse / partner / significant other wants to have sexual relations with
> > someone other than yourself.
>
> > I think it would be natural to have these feelings if something special
> > that
> > was only meant to be shared between a couple was suddenly devalued by
> > sharing with others. Depending on your values, that could be anywhere
> > from
> > an intimate kiss to revealing your modesty, to sex or displaying love
> > for
> > someone else.
>
> You know Sam, not everyone shares this same outlook. In fact, some
> might find it offensive (being told that having more than one love/
> partner means that their relationships are less special and they put
> less value on them and sex).
>
> Darklily
I don't think Sam was implying that everyone shares this outlook. I
feel the same way as Sam does, but appreciate that other people don't
find fidelity in matters of sex of as great importance as Sam does or
I do. I hear it expressed here and have no reason to believe people
are making it up even though I find it difficult to fathom. I just
know that I could not live with a situation like Sarah's.
JustGB
Thankyou JustGB! You are absolutely right.
Since being on this newsgroup many years ago, I have realised that not
everyone shares this outlook.
I didn't emphasise it, but that's why I wrote it as 'IF something special
was only MEANT to be shared between a couple...'
So let me illustrate what I meant with a non-sexual analogy:
Let's say I'm a shopkeeper, and you're a regular customer of mine. I tell
you, because you're such a loyal customer, and because I like you so much, I
offer you a special generous discount on a product you wanted to buy from my
store. Now you understand I only made that deal for you, and I wouldn't want
to sell it so cheap except perhaps to my closest friends and family. Would
that make you feel special? Of course, for that would be my intention.
However, let's say later on, you discovered that I was offering the same
discount to every other customer that walked into the store, including the
ones who had never purchased anything from me before. Would you still feel
our relationship was so special?
So, whilst of course I had no intention of offending anyone, I was
explaining that it's understandable to have these feelings of jealousy if a
couple have the outlook that (sexual) intimacy was something special that
they were supposed to share with only each other and nobody else.
So in response to Toramjero's post:
"Why would sharing something with other devaluate it?"
This is the answer. It would devalue it if it was NOT MEANT to be shared.
Of course, a couple like Wolf (?) and Sarah may be more sexually broadminded
and open than me and not see sexual experience that way... but I mentioned
that point of view because Sarah's earlier doubts suggests that she is
thinking both ways.
-Sam
darklily
> "JustGB" <gettingb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I don't think I quite get this sentence (still). I still think sex is
special, whether one has one partner or more than one.
>
> So let me illustrate what I meant with a non-sexual analogy:
>
> Let's say I'm a shopkeeper, and you're a regular customer of mine. I tell
> you, because you're such a loyal customer, and because I like you so much, I
> offer you a special generous discount on a product you wanted to buy from my
> store. Now you understand I only made that deal for you, and I wouldn't want
> to sell it so cheap except perhaps to my closest friends and family. Would
> that make you feel special? Of course, for that would be my intention.
But that's still including more than one person in the special
deal...not just one...so it's not exactly the same situation.
>
> However, let's say later on, you discovered that I was offering the same
> discount to every other customer that walked into the store, including the
> ones who had never purchased anything from me before. Would you still feel
> our relationship was so special?
Having more than one partner doesn't necessarily mean you have sex
with every person you come across. It's not one or the other.
>
> So, whilst of course I had no intention of offending anyone, I was
> explaining that it's understandable to have these feelings of jealousy if a
> couple have the outlook that (sexual) intimacy was something special that
> they were supposed to share with only each other and nobody else.
>
> So in response to Toramjero's post:
> "Why would sharing something with other devaluate it?"
>
> This is the answer. It would devalue it if it was NOT MEANT to be shared.
I don't have a problem if this is how you feel about your
relationship. In the first paragraph you agree with Justy, but can you
see how this just doesn't have the same ring to it?
>
> Of course, a couple like Wolf (?) and Sarah may be more sexually broadminded
> and open than me and not see sexual experience that way... but I mentioned
> that point of view because Sarah's earlier doubts suggests that she is
> thinking both ways.
>
Ok...here's more food for thought. Why is it that we can have more
than one child and love them equally? And if we are to only have sex
and love one person, and it is so special that there can only be
one....why is it ok to get remarried after a spouse dies? Love doesn't
die when that person dies. They aren't any less special. Wouldn't
doing that devalue the previous relationship? Why are these things
generally considered different?
Darklily(not angry, seriously, just in case it sounds like it)
Serene Vannoy
> Let's say I'm a shopkeeper, and you're a regular customer of mine. I tell
> you, because you're such a loyal customer, and because I like you so much, I
> offer you a special generous discount on a product you wanted to buy from my
> store. Now you understand I only made that deal for you, and I wouldn't want
> to sell it so cheap except perhaps to my closest friends and family. Would
> that make you feel special? Of course, for that would be my intention.
>
> However, let's say later on, you discovered that I was offering the same
> discount to every other customer that walked into the store, including the
> ones who had never purchased anything from me before. Would you still feel
> our relationship was so special?
>
> So, whilst of course I had no intention of offending anyone, I was
> explaining that it's understandable to have these feelings of jealousy if a
> couple have the outlook that (sexual) intimacy was something special that
> they were supposed to share with only each other and nobody else.
I don't think that's an especially good analogy, though I see what
you're getting at, and I agree -- some people feel that sexual intimacy
should only be shared between two people, and it's cheapened by being
shared with more people outside that couple. (The reasons I think your
analogy doesn't work are several: 1) Poly people generally don't hide
the fact that they have other loves, so the whole "later on, you
discovered" thing is usually not the case; 2) Just because someone is
poly, that doesn't mean zie is "offering the same discount to every
other customer walking into the store". There's no one I know, in fact,
who sleeps with everyone zie's attracted to, much less everyone zie
knows; 3) etc.
> So in response to Toramjero's post:
> "Why would sharing something with other devaluate it?"
>
> This is the answer. It would devalue it if it was NOT MEANT to be shared.
>
> Of course, a couple like Wolf (?) and Sarah may be more sexually broadminded
> and open than me and not see sexual experience that way... but I mentioned
> that point of view because Sarah's earlier doubts suggests that she is
> thinking both ways.
Sarah's said repeatedly that while she feels jealous and scared about
the possibility of her partner having other lovers, it's something
they've both agreed to do, so I don't think it's "NOT MEANT to be
shared" in the way you're suggesting.
Serene Vannoy
:-) (Just in case anyone thinks we're seriously upset about this, Tom
and I enjoy liking each other, I think, and neither of us is actually
feeling bad about the pesky Tom-is-monogamous thing. :-)
>- I rarely get *overly* flirtatious with women
> in my peer groups because I don't want them getting the wrong idea.
> However, I'm fortunate that *some* of the women I know are able to be
> direct about what they want, and are able to have frank discussions
> about sexuality and relationships.
Same here. And I'm really extra glad that the people I hang around
understand the concept of flirting-without-intent. The small amount of
flirting you and I do, for instance (sorry to continue using you as an
example, Tom) would feel icky to me if either of us was unclear on the
fact that it's not intended to go anywhere, but is merely an expression
of playful friendship.
Serene Vannoy
> Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
>> Dave wrote:
>>> On Sep 24, 10:24 am, Irfon-Kim Ahmad <ir...@ambienautica.com> wrote:
>>>> toramjero <toramj...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
>>>> Yes. :) (Well, I find that each individual person tastes different
>>>> even from one spot on their skin or body to another,
>>> Especially with respect to oral sex. This is not a statistically
>>> significant sample, but the 2 girl friends I had who were strict
>>> vegetarians, tasted a lot sweeter.
>> My ex-wife said she could tell the difference when I went from being a
>> vegan to eating animal foods.
>
> I know that (and this is jumping genders here, I suppose) the one guy I
> was with who ate a *lot* of junk food and fried foods had a really oily
> taste and texture to his pre-cum.
That would be a crying shame. Pre-cum is one of the best flavors on
earth, as far as I'm concerned.
> I don't think any of my female partners have had wildly different diets
> from each other, so I haven't been able to put a pattern to it. I have
> noticed that some people's tastes change slightly over time.
One of my partner tasted exactly like me -- she thought so, too -- but
the other women I've slept with haven't.
darklily
What Serene said. : )
Darklily
darklily
> and sending Wolf to see a Working Lady (as the ones we're choosing
> from call themselves) for our ninth anniversary in two weeks.
> --
> See the ssg homepage:http://socsexualitygeneral.org/
>
> If you want to contact me directly on SSG moderation business, please replace TwoUnderscores with... well, two underscores.
In case I didn't say it before...you really are being brave. You are
amazing, not for agreeing to it...but for talking openly and honestly
and continuing to communicate and try to understand Wolf. That is a
very hard thing to do in a relationship. Many can't communicate about
much simpler things.
Darklily
Tom Allen
Well... I'm trying not to feel *overly* bad. 'cos, you know, there's
also that 3,000 mile thing, too.
> >- I rarely get *overly* flirtatious with women
>> in my peer groups because I don't want them getting the wrong idea.
>> However, I'm fortunate that *some* of the women I know are able to be
>> direct about what they want, and are able to have frank discussions
>> about sexuality and relationships.
>
> Same here. And I'm really extra glad that the people I hang around
> understand the concept of flirting-without-intent. The small amount of
> flirting you and I do, for instance (sorry to continue using you as an
> example, Tom) would feel icky to me if either of us was unclear on the
> fact that it's not intended to go anywhere, but is merely an expression
> of playful friendship.
Oh. Uh, yeah - I knew that, I knew that.
--
Tom Allen
http://vanillaedge.wordpress.com
"I don't have multiple orgasms, myself... I am, however, known to be a
carrier."
Tom Allen
>
> What Serene said. : )
DL, I've never noticed that you flirt with Serene. I had you figured for
a str8 chick.
--
Tom Allen
http://vanillaedge.wordpress.com
"I don't have multiple orgasms, myself... I am, however, known to be a
carrier."
darklily
> darklily wrote:
> > On Sep 26, 8:03 pm, Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
> >> Tom Allen wrote:
> >>> in my peer groups because I don't want them getting the wrong idea.
> >>> However, I'm fortunate that *some* of the women I know are able to be
> >>> direct about what they want, and are able to have frank discussions
> >>> about sexuality and relationships.
> >> Same here. And I'm really extra glad that the people I hang around
> >> understand the concept of flirting-without-intent. The small amount of
> >> flirting you and I do, for instance (sorry to continue using you as an
> >> example, Tom) would feel icky to me if either of us was unclear on the
> >> fact that it's not intended to go anywhere, but is merely an expression
> >> of playful friendship.
>
> > What Serene said. : )
>
> DL, I've never noticed that you flirt with Serene. I had you figured for
> a str8 chick.
>
That's not what I meant. :P
Not that I wouldn't flirt with Serene.
But, you're mostly right...I have flirted with women, but never did
anything beyond that. Somebody the other day tried to talk me in to
having sex with his wife. He suggested we get her drunk (and most
likely me as well). Yeah...that didn't happen. And nothing happened
with him either. Ick.
Darklily
suzee
> Same here. And I'm really extra glad that the people I hang around
> understand the concept of flirting-without-intent. The small amount of
> flirting you and I do, for instance (sorry to continue using you as an
> example, Tom) would feel icky to me if either of us was unclear on the
> fact that it's not intended to go anywhere, but is merely an expression
> of playful friendship.
Somehow, I don't think Tom minds being used.... as an example, of course.
sue
darklily
Well, in that case it's my turn next...I kind of dig that sort of
thing. ; )
No, seriously...a few weeks back when M (the new guy I've started
seeing) started to talk frankly about his kinks and was pretty
concerned that I might have problems with them, I assured him I'd
heard about quite a wide variety.I mentioned Tom's kink as well as
quite a few others I've learned about in the years of participating
here. Let's just say M suddenly didn't feel so concerned.
Darklily
Matthew Vincent
> I know I spout off about this subject often enough to get really
> really dull for some people.
Hey Sarah, I just wanted you to know that I find your posts on this
stuff really interesting and enjoyable to read. I think you're very
articulate in communicating about the issues and how you feel about
them. Sometimes I run out of time to reply but I've been following
your posts on this topic with interest.
>But being able to spill my guts over this really really
>helps me when I am feeling over anxious.
Yep, I can certainly relate to that feeling.
Thinking of you and hoping things go well for you,
Matthew
Tom Allen
>
> No, seriously...a few weeks back when M (the new guy I've started
> seeing) started to talk frankly about his kinks and was pretty
> concerned that I might have problems with them, I assured him I'd
> heard about quite a wide variety.I mentioned Tom's kink as well as
> quite a few others I've learned about in the years of participating
> here. Let's just say M suddenly didn't feel so concerned.
That's "kinks" - plural, DL ;-)
Tell him to check the internet for Ugol's Law. It's an old alt.sex term
for the concept that no matter how odd and unique you believe your own
kink to be, if you search around teh internetz for a bit, then you'll
find a bunch of other people with the same thing.
--
Tom Allen
http://tom-allen.livejournal.com/
toramjero
They seek their own kind? Well, thank you. How can I change not to
belong to "a statistical slice of the population", please?
toramjero
> "JustGB" <gettingb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Frankly, I still don't get it. If I were to have such a good relation
with a shopkeeper that he would give me special deals, of the kind he
could not give anyone without going bankrupt, if would feel more
embarrassed than honored. But in any case, I would never feel less of
a friend if he gave the same deals to someone else. I would understand
that those deals are not "special" if he offered them to everyone, but
a shopkeeper is certainly entitled to have more than one good friend.
Anyway, I am not really sure the analogy between sex and sales works
very well. From your post, I understand (with difficulties) that you
want to feel "unique". You want to have a relation that none else has.
I find this a rather puzzling concept, which probably means that we
have quite different ideas about relationships. I am not sure how I
could explain what my ideas are or understand your feelings, however.
toramjero
I was upset when I sent the above message, which is not the right
thing to do. Maybe I should explain a bit more.
First: I don't expect all women to be dismissive of sexuality. I am
pretty sure there are plenty of women who see sex in a positive way.
I was upset, because I understand your sentence to mean that women
dismissive of sexuality, who tend to seek their own kind, would
cluster around *me* for that reason. I realise now that what you meant
was that they cluster together, and this is why I met a group of them.
Anyway, the truth is that I do not meet many people who see sex in a
positive way, and I wonder why. Do I especially attract women
dismissive of sexuality? Do I chase sex-positive people? Are sex-
positive people simply rare? I don't expect anyone here to give me an
answer, I just wanted to explain why I overreacted. Sorry.
About your friend who had an adventurous attitude and is learning to
hold back... I have friends, or rather acquaintances, who had a
relatively adventurous attitude in their 20s (now, I did not have any
when I was in my 20s myself). As I already posted in another thread,
their opinion is that this is something you can do when you are
relatively young, but you must settle when growing to be an adult. So
indeed I do not know of anyone who is still adventurous at my age...
they all learned to hold back.
darklily
>
> About your friend who had an adventurous attitude and is learning to
> hold back... I have friends, or rather acquaintances, who had a
> relatively adventurous attitude in their 20s (now, I did not have any
> when I was in my 20s myself). As I already posted in another thread,
> their opinion is that this is something you can do when you are
> relatively young, but you must settle when growing to be an adult. So
> indeed I do not know of anyone who is still adventurous at my age...
>
<Shudder>
I know someone like you are describing..but perhaps their attitude is
an extreme case. This person was once highly adventurous (threesomes
or more, etc.). Then this person decided that they were grown up and
that their spouse was their property. This person stopped being
interested in sex (and even affection) at all and considered their
spouse's continued interest in sex (with them or in any form) was
something that the spouse should have "gotten out of their system"
before marriage. You can imagine the shock and dismay of the spouse?
Makes me ill every time I think about it. Yes...there are really
people who think like that.
Darklily (late 30s and relatively adventurous, I think)
Sam Murai
"toramjero" <tora...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:34a9156a-29b2-432a...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 26, 11:34 pm, "Sam Murai" <murai.samnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
...
Hmm...
Yes, unique might be one word I could use. Being monogamous, faithful,
having only one sexual partner etc. in that relationship is a part of that
'uniqueness'. So having more than one sexual partner (simulataneously) makes
it less unique.
Um... I think Serene gets it, even though she thinks its a poor analogy.
Read her reply maybe...
-Sam
Sam Murai
"darklily" <dark...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e76dbe11-c04c-4dee...@73g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
-Umm... I agreed with Justy about what she said about me - that is, I wasn't
implying that everyone had the same views.
>
> Of course, a couple like Wolf (?) and Sarah may be more sexually
> broadminded
> and open than me and not see sexual experience that way... but I mentioned
> that point of view because Sarah's earlier doubts suggests that she is
> thinking both ways.
>
Ok...here's more food for thought. Why is it that we can have more
than one child and love them equally? And if we are to only have sex
and love one person, and it is so special that there can only be
one....why is it ok to get remarried after a spouse dies? Love doesn't
die when that person dies. They aren't any less special. Wouldn't
doing that devalue the previous relationship? Why are these things
generally considered different?
Darklily(not angry, seriously, just in case it sounds like it)
(Don't know why my newsreader - Outlook Express 6, doesn't preface
Darklily's comments with a ">" even though I have it set in the options)
I don't disagree that some people have lifestyle choices where it's ok to
have more than one lover simultaneously or even to love various partners
equally. I was just trying to explain why mono, vanilla people would feel
jealous if their partner had sex with someone else, knowingly or otherwise.
And the reason why it's 'ok' for a widow(er) to remarry is because that
relationship is over even if they loved the deceased.They aren't
"two-timing" if they start another relationship. (Am I opening another can
of worms with that "two-timing" phrase?)
-Sam
Sam Murai
"Serene Vannoy" <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote in message
news:6k5ba3F...@mid.individual.net...
> Sam Murai wrote:
>
...
>
> Sarah's said repeatedly that while she feels jealous and scared about the
> possibility of her partner having other lovers, it's something they've
> both agreed to do, so I don't think it's "NOT MEANT to be shared" in the
> way you're suggesting.
>
> Serene
>
>
I think she feels both ways. If it was really ok for her to share it, then
she shouldn't feel jealous in the first place.
(Like for example, if my wife was to hug a male friend, that would be ok
with my values and standards of intimacy. However, if they were to kiss
passionately, or even consider removing clothing... that would be a totally
different matter. Very possibly, within another culture or religion, that
hug may cross boundaries for intimate contact.)
Annnnywwaay.... I'm not trying to contradict poly lifestyles or people who
feel it's ok to openly have sexual experiences with more than one partner.
Just trying to explain why anyone would feel jealous in the first place if
that were to occur.
Is Sarah back? Maybe she could clear the air since we're doing a lot of
analyzing and speculating behind her back...
-Sam
toramjero
> "toramjero" <toramj...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
I am not reall sure that I can relate to Serene's answer either. Maybe
this has to do with my lack of experience, I don't know.
Anyway, my understanding of jealousy (and I understand that this is
actually what we are talking about) is not positive at all. I
understand that some people feel that they are entitled to an "unique"
relationship. That they are entitled to ask for exclusivity. That they
can control whom their partner is allowed to love. That they have
rights on their partner.
I don't feel like that. That's all. I don't know why, I just don't.
toramjero
I can imagine the shock and dismay of the spouse, but what I described
was a bit different. The people I know do not stop sex after their
marriage (I think, I have not checked, obviously). And the idea that
"adventurous " is something reserved for the young is prevalent, it is
not an unique case.
Norton
>On Sep 10, 2:34 pm, "Sam Murai" <murai.samnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <toramj...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>
>> ....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> Anyway, I just caught this thread halfway and I'm opening my big mouth so
>> >> I
>> >> hope I don't put my foot in it at the same time by jumping to
>> >> conclusions. I
>> >> gather that it's about Sarah's other half wanting an experience with
>> >> another
>> >> woman and Sarah sort of consenting to it but with mixed emotions...
>>
>> >> First, if I may get on my own soapbox for a moment, even if nobody is
>> >> stopping to listen except myself, I want to say, whatever happened to
>> >> that
>> >> sacred marriage vow? You know, "to have and to hold, to love and to
>> >> cherish"
>> >> etc?
>>
>> >> I mean I'm not a religious person but I do go for the not coveting thy
>> >> neighbour's wife and no adultery thing. And that's not for lack of
>> >> interest
>> >> either. I don't pretend I don't notice a hot young babe or a supermodel
>> >> on
>> >> TV whatever but I think that's what makes my vow of monogamy more
>> >> special.
>> >> It's said that courage is not a lack of fear but mastery of it, so too is
>> >> faithfullness not a lack of lust, but mastery of it. I enjoy looking at
>> >> glamour images of hot women but I also have become good at chanelling my
>> >> lust back at my own wife. And she is the only person whom I've had sex
>> >> with
>> >> (not counting a hand job from a former girlfriend!).
>>
>> >> Either of us would be insanely jealous if we had intentional intimate
>> >> contact with someone else (we even prefer my wife to choose female
>> >> doctors.
>> >> I still find recollections of male doctors probing her a bit disturbing
>> >> even
>> >> though it was not in a sexual context).
>>
>> >> Having said all that, I realise, especially from all the diversity of
>> >> people
>> >> on this newsgroup, that it's only my paradigm and my values.
>>
>> >> All the concerns that Sarah has... I guess that would depend on what his
>> >> motive was in the first place, and I mean from an emotional level, not
>> >> just
>> >> a conscious or physical level. For example, what is he looking for
>> >> elsewhere
>> >> that is not being fulfilled already?
>>
>> >> Sorry, I don't mean to add to Sarah's concerns. I think it's really
>> >> giving
>> >> of her to expose herself to such an emotional risk and uncertainty for
>> >> the
>> >> benefit of him.
>>
>> >> I'm really fascinated to know the outcome and any updates from Sarah...
>>
>> >> -Sam
>>
>> > I agree about the emotional problem part. I do not agree about the
>> > "lusting another woman" part. For Sarah's man, it is not that he is
>> > attracted to another woman, read: a particular one. Any woman will do.
>> > He is attracted to an idea. Are you jealous of ideas?
>>
>> > Jealousy is a feeling I don't know, by the way. So people are
>> > different indeed.
>>
>> When I use the term lust, I don't necessarily mean towards an individual. I
>> mean temptation / desire to sexually experience a woman, and in this
>> context, another woman outside the covenant of marriage.
>>
>> So not 'jealous' of an idea in general but jealous of the idea that one's
>> spouse / partner / significant other wants to have sexual relations with
>> someone other than yourself.
>>
>> I think it would be natural to have these feelings if something special that
>> was only meant to be shared between a couple was suddenly devalued by
>> sharing with others. Depending on your values, that could be anywhere from
>> an intimate kiss to revealing your modesty, to sex or displaying love for
>> someone else.
>You know Sam, not everyone shares this same outlook. In fact, some
>might find it offensive (being told that having more than one love/
>partner means that their relationships are less special and they put
>less value on them and sex).
Well, I don't think they'd be angry at Sam, the outlook is common
enough out there.
Everybody's different and most everybody changes as time goes
on.
I do know one thing: if we are meant to have only one love
in our lives, we must be amazed that with billions of people
in the world, that one person often turns out to live right
there in the same town we live in!
--
--- Norton
Norton
>toramjero wrote:
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> Sarah <STwoUnde...@bigpond.net.au> said:
>>>
>>>
>>> ... he backed out.
>>>
>>
>> That is probably a good decision. If you want to experience more than
>> one sexual partner, you have to do it when you are young and still
>> uncommitted.
>Nope.
>Serene, still 42, committed, and having (great!) sex with multiple partners
And still young. Undo that "nope".
--
--- Norton
Norton
>On Sep 22, 9:55 am, toramjero <toramj...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Sarah wrote:
>> > Sarah <STwoUnderscor...@bigpond.net.au> said:
>>
>> > ... he backed out.
>>
>> That is probably a good decision. If you want to experience more than
>> one sexual partner, you have to do it when you are young and still
>> expect your partner to correct your past. I also regret having taken
>> that decision in the past (although it wasn't a "decision", some men
>> are just more successful than others), but I feel no right to burden
>> my wife with things for which she is not responsible. It is not her
>> fault.
>>
>> When you are married, you have to make some compromises. You have to
>> accept that you won't do whatever your partner does not agree that you
>> do. Some couples agree on external partners but if one of the two does
>> not want it you can't do that, whatever your desire is. It is an
>> uncomfortable situation, because you can't forget your desires even if
>> you try to forget them, but that is the price to pay. You have to take
>> no for an answer.
>Maybe I'll explain a bit more. What I think is that for each choice
>there is a price to pay.
>Wolf and I did not take the chance to experience sex when we were in
>our twenties. It's our fault, not our wife's fault. She wasn't even
>there. The price to pay for that choice is that we will always ignore
>what it is to be in love at 20. What it is to discover sex together
>with a woman for which it is a first time as well. We missed the easy
>times going out with friends, the fun, the silly talks between young
>men. We also missed the emotions, the roller coasters of being in love
>and breaking up, the first time you march hand in hand with someone.
>In exchange we got years of masturbation, loneliness and fear that
>someone will make fun of you for still being a virgin.
>Now, Wolf and I have a loving woman. Wolf wants to get some
>experience. The price to pay is to make that loving woman unhappy. I
>don't know how my wife would react (I haven't asked), but I suppose it
>would be the same. Plus a divorce, probably. But in exchange you don't
>get your youth back. You may get to know whether other women feel or
>taste different. You can try to go to the meat market and pull women,
>but you have 20 years more and that is the difference between a player
>and an old pervert. And you still don't know how to "pull women", you
>never managed to do that in your 20s, you are not going to suddenly
>have women at your feet. You can go to "working women" and pay sex by
>the hour. It's not the same.
>What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
Yes. And they are different in every other way too. We are
*all* different.
--
--- Norton
Norton
>toramjero wrote:
>> But in exchange you don't
>> get your youth back.
>That's fine. I think I'm even better now ;-)
You've been taking lessons from Justy?
>> You may get to know whether other women feel or
>> taste different. You can try to go to the meat market and pull women,
>> but you have 20 years more and that is the difference between a player
>> and an old pervert.
>::blink blink::
>What? Somebody who is 40 or 50 or 60 is a pervert for trying to pick up
>women?
Of course. They are way too young.
>Granted that most 50 year olds would be seen as such if they were at a
>goth rave trying to pick up 22 year olds. But at a sports bar trying to
>pick up 35 year olds? Or some other venue?
You'd be surprised. There is a minority of women who like
to flirt (and sometimes more) with men old enough to be their
fathers, or grandfathers...
> > And you still don't know how to "pull women", you
>> never managed to do that in your 20s, you are not going to suddenly
>> have women at your feet.
>Heh. I beg to differ. Well, not that women are throwing themselves at
>me, but I seem to be getting more attention now, and have more
>flirtation now than I did when I was 20.
I think that may be because you give them hope that men will
still be interested in sex when they are old.
>A lot of that has to do with being more confident in myself and more
>comfortable with who I am as a person.
>Plus, I carry a cucumber in my pocket.
<grin>
>> You can go to "working women" and pay sex by
>> the hour. It's not the same.
>>
>> What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
>Very much so.
And their touch is different too.
--
--- Norton
Norton
><snip>
>>>
>>> What I wonder most is whether other women taste different. Do they?
>>
>> Very much so.
>>
>I don't!
I'll bet you taste just like Jana and not at all like Tom.
--
--- Norton
darklily
>
> - Show quoted text -
I like that last bit, Norton.
Strange but true circumstance...M (the new guy I am seeing) and I have
lived in/been the same town in different states and countries at the
same time at least 5 times throughout our lives. We've worked on at
least 2 dozen of the same projects over the past 4 years...and we just
met a month and a half ago. Weirdness.
Darklily
suzee
I used to chuckle at the younger set who agonized ove `he/she's the only
one I could ever love' I learned a while ago that there's lots of people
we could love, we're just limited by time and geography from running
into them. And the internet has eliminated some of the barrier.
suze
Serene Vannoy
> I am not reall sure that I can relate to Serene's answer either. Maybe
> this has to do with my lack of experience, I don't know.
>
> Anyway, my understanding of jealousy (and I understand that this is
> actually what we are talking about) is not positive at all. I
> understand that some people feel that they are entitled to an "unique"
> relationship. That they are entitled to ask for exclusivity. That they
> can control whom their partner is allowed to love. That they have
> rights on their partner.
>
> I don't feel like that. That's all. I don't know why, I just don't.
I think the first step to understanding is to accept that just because
someone's different from you, that doesn't mean they're wrong. People
who prefer monogamy are just that -- people who prefer monogamy. When
you paint them as controlling and entitled, you are engaging in some Us
vs. Them stuff that's not helpful.
Serene
--
"I am an agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at
the bottom of the garden." -- Richard Dawkins
Serene Vannoy
42's not young. It's not elderly, or even as old as Norton, but I am
fine with knowing that I'm not young any more.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>I think the first step to understanding is to accept that just because
>someone's different from you, that doesn't mean they're wrong.
That smacks of relativism. Different can be neutral or downright wrong in
certain circumstances. For instance, if someone told me that routinely molested
little girls, I wouldn't just chalk it up to difference; I'd rage against it
for being morally wrong. Now, on the scale of moral wrongness, polyamory
doesn't even register if it's between consenting adults. But, I think part of
nuancing tolerance of difference is that other people will think many practices
are wrong and even seek to banish those practices from their society. We have
to deal with their critiques rather than simply preach some sort of artificial
tolernace.
>People who prefer monogamy are just that -- people who prefer monogamy.
Monogamy isn't just a preference like home decorations or musical taste.
Monogamy has been a societal organizer for millennia. It helps people keep
track of whose children are whose and insures financial support all around. Its
down side is possible sexual stagnation or overwhelming relationships in which
people feel overly responsible for one another. So, the critique against
polyamory has had centuries to gestate.
>When you paint them as controlling and entitled, you are engaging in some Us
>vs. Them stuff that's not helpful.
As long as he doesn't actively try to stop you from being poly, he has every
right to express his feelings on polyamory in general, even if they happen to
be ignorant. Part of freedom of speech involves letting ignorant people blather
away about things they don't know intimately. The alternative would frighten me
much more. I can always turn off an ignorant person, but I wouldn't want some
sort of thought or speech control to take hold, forcing everyone to code their
true feelings in acceptable language of whomever is in power. Make no mistake
about it, linguistic and expressive legislation is usually controlled by
whoever gets hold of enough power to make their preferences stick. If things go
as I'd like this November and Obama gets elected, you'll start to see shifts in
national expression around many issues. But, lest I digress, I don't want a
usenet or real life world in which people feel they have to express disapproval
in stylized phrases that barely convey true feelings. If someone thinks
polyamory is controlling, they should be free to say that, as long as they
don't attempt to restrict polyamorous people from living openly. I myself have
some critiques of polyamory. It tends to set up a luxury model of what I call
relationship affluence. It also makes the sting of rejection even more
unbearable.
Orlando
toramjero
> toramjero wrote:
> > I am not reall sure that I can relate to Serene's answer either. Maybe
> > this has to do with my lack of experience, I don't know.
>
> > Anyway, my understanding of jealousy (and I understand that this is
> > actually what we are talking about) is not positive at all. I
> > understand that some people feel that they are entitled to an "unique"
> > relationship. That they are entitled to ask for exclusivity. That they
> > can control whom their partner is allowed to love. That they have
> > rights on their partner.
>
> > I don't feel like that. That's all. I don't know why, I just don't.
>
> I think the first step to understanding is to accept that just because
> someone's different from you, that doesn't mean they're wrong. People
> who prefer monogamy are just that -- people who prefer monogamy. When
> you paint them as controlling and entitled, you are engaging in some Us
> vs. Them stuff that's not helpful.
>
>
It's not really a "us versus them" discussion. I have been monogamous
all my life, and not even "serially monogamous" on top of that. So it
is rather a "us versus us" discussion, isn't it?
Besides, there are two sides of the monogamy coin. People can stay
monogamous themselves, or have multiple partners if they are
attractive enough to be able to convince more than one person, that is
one thing. I have no opinion about that. I don't know what choice I
would have taken if I had been attractive enough to convince more than
one person to accept me.
The other side is requiring your partner to stay monogamous. I,
personally, do not feel entitled to require this from anyone. Now: do
I feel that the persons who require a commitment to monogamy from
their partners are wrong? Indeed I do, but it is just my opinion. Sam,
on the other hand, appears to think that it is wrong to refuse the
commitment (it "cheapens" the relationship), thereby implying that
requiring the commitment is right. So we disagree. Not all discussions
can end up in agreement.
Maybe Sam could explain why it is right, in his opinion, to require a
monogamous commitment from one's partner. I don't think that Sam has
explained this part. He simply assumed that the commitment would
happen. Yet, this commitment never happens on its own. At one point,
you have to ask for a promise. Either explicitly (like when marrying
at church) or implicitly (for example by asking in private whether
that person "loves" you alone). The commitment which is asked for is a
promise on the future. It is a promise to not follow one's desire for
another person, should this desire arise in the future. I don't feel
that this is a small promise to require.
toramjero
> Tom Allen <taomli...@spamsbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >toramjero wrote:
> >> But in exchange you don't
> >> get your youth back.
> >That's fine. I think I'm even better now ;-)
>
> You've been taking lessons from Justy?
>
> >> You may get to know whether other women feel or
> >> taste different. You can try to go to the meat market and pull women,
> >> but you have 20 years more and that is the difference between a player
> >> and an old pervert.
> >::blink blink::
> >What? Somebody who is 40 or 50 or 60 is a pervert for trying to pick up
> >women?
>
> Of course. They are way too young.
>
> >Granted that most 50 year olds would be seen as such if they were at a
> >goth rave trying to pick up 22 year olds. But at a sports bar trying to
> >pick up 35 year olds? Or some other venue?
>
> You'd be surprised. There is a minority of women who like
> to flirt (and sometimes more) with men old enough to be their
> fathers, or grandfathers...
>
I'd be surprised indeed. Sure, everything exists, but I don't think
think that there are a lot of such women. Just to keep everything in
proportions: if I were single and went to a bar and approached a woman
half my age, what is much more likely to happen:
-that this woman is mainly interested in men old enough to be her
father and welcomes the opportunity
-that this woman is outraged and calls me a pervert to be interested
in woman who could be their daughters?
I am talking about romantic interest here, not financial interest, of
course.
Now, Tom and you pretend that women throw themselves at their aged
feet when they enter a sports bar. OTOH, I recall that both Tom and
you are married and committed to their wife. It seems that this
description of a sports bar is more likely to belong to
alt.sex.stories than to s.s.g. In my fantasies, women are also
interested to flirt with men of my age. In reality, the population in
bars is rather:
-half my age and 50-50 male female mix
-of my age and older and male in majority.
Serene Vannoy
> On Sep 30, 7:16 am, Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
>> toramjero wrote:
>>> I am not reall sure that I can relate to Serene's answer either. Maybe
>>> this has to do with my lack of experience, I don't know.
>>> Anyway, my understanding of jealousy (and I understand that this is
>>> actually what we are talking about) is not positive at all. I
>>> understand that some people feel that they are entitled to an "unique"
>>> relationship. That they are entitled to ask for exclusivity. That they
>>> can control whom their partner is allowed to love. That they have
>>> rights on their partner.
>>> I don't feel like that. That's all. I don't know why, I just don't.
>> I think the first step to understanding is to accept that just because
>> someone's different from you, that doesn't mean they're wrong. People
>> who prefer monogamy are just that -- people who prefer monogamy. When
>> you paint them as controlling and entitled, you are engaging in some Us
>> vs. Them stuff that's not helpful.
>>
>>
>
>
> It's not really a "us versus them" discussion. I have been monogamous
> all my life, and not even "serially monogamous" on top of that.
So you've been with the same person your entire life?
> So it
> is rather a "us versus us" discussion, isn't it?
>
> Besides, there are two sides of the monogamy coin. People can stay
> monogamous themselves, or have multiple partners if they are
> attractive enough to be able to convince more than one person, that is
> one thing. I have no opinion about that. I don't know what choice I
> would have taken if I had been attractive enough to convince more than
> one person to accept me.
I'm middle-aged, fat, and perpetually broke. Somehow, I don't think that
only people who are "attractive enough" can be poly.
David
<snip>
>I'm middle-aged, fat, and perpetually broke. Somehow, I don't think
>that only people who are "attractive enough" can be poly.
I always remember this very important phrase:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Apparently, there's several beholders around you that can see your
beauty.
Serene Vannoy
I tend to agree with you. :-) I've long been clear that while I am not
what many -- maybe most -- people would consider attractive, I really am
beautiful, and I don't settle for partners who don't agree with me on
that. :-)
Sam Murai
...
>
> I'm middle-aged, fat, and perpetually broke. Somehow, I don't think that
> only people who are "attractive enough" can be poly.
>
> Serene
Hey, "middle-aged" can be sexy. Just look at the popularity of the
characters on shows like "Desperate Housewives" etc! My wife is in her 40's
and I find her very attractive! :-)
As for fat, there's a recent hit pop song my kids have been singing - I
think it's called "Big Girls Are Beautiful" which features a lot of
above-average sized dancers and models (above the "average" size for a model
that is, not for the general population)
And broke does not equate to unattractive - unless the person you're trying
to attract is only attracted to money... (Having a broke attitude might not
be attractive though...)
Anyway, I think Toramjero was just generalising and referring to more
choices of available suitors / partners, rather than commenting about what
makes someone attractive for a poly relationship.
-Sam
Sam Murai
...
The other side is requiring your partner to stay monogamous. I,
personally, do not feel entitled to require this from anyone. Now: do
I feel that the persons who require a commitment to monogamy from
their partners are wrong? Indeed I do, but it is just my opinion. Sam,
on the other hand, appears to think that it is wrong to refuse the
commitment (it "cheapens" the relationship), thereby implying that
requiring the commitment is right. So we disagree. Not all discussions
can end up in agreement.
Maybe Sam could explain why it is right, in his opinion, to require a
monogamous commitment from one's partner. I don't think that Sam has
explained this part. He simply assumed that the commitment would
happen. Yet, this commitment never happens on its own. At one point,
you have to ask for a promise. Either explicitly (like when marrying
at church) or implicitly (for example by asking in private whether
that person "loves" you alone). The commitment which is asked for is a
promise on the future. It is a promise to not follow one's desire for
another person, should this desire arise in the future. I don't feel
that this is a small promise to require.
(above is Toramjero's comments)
Well... that works!
But it is implicitly promised in a mono relationship if someone is your
"steady" boyfriend / girlfriend that they aren't expected to have sexual
relationships with others at the same time.
And as you say, it's very explicitly promised if we're talking about a
fiancé / fiancée (spelling?) or husband / wife
So it seems that you do understand what I'm trying to say, even if I haven't
explained it well.
-Sam