Chinese cheaters? How China dominates solar

[chatnoir]

http://www.grist.org/solar-power/2011-09-10-chinese-cheaters-how-china-dominates-solar

headline:

Chinese cheaters? How China dominates solar
by Stephen Lacey

10 Sep 2011 7:40 AM
.

Armed with tens of billions in loans from the Chinese government,
Chinese solar companies have scaled at a rate unthinkable only a few
years ago. At the end of this year, there will likely be 50,000
megawatts (MW) of manufacturing capacity in place around the world,
with much of that new capacity being developed in China and other
Asian countries. (In the year 2000, there were only 100 MW of
production capacity worldwide.)

In four years, the solar manufacturing sector shifted from being led
by a geographically dispersed number of companies to one dominated by
Chinese companies. In 2006, there were two companies from China in the
list of top ten cell producers. In 2010, there were six, according to
Bloomberg New Energy Finance. There are currently only two non-Asian
manufacturers in the top ten, and those companies -- First Solar and Q-
Cells -- have shifted a lot of their production to Asia.

So what happened? How did the Chinese come to completely dominate the
solar industry in such a short period of time?

Bryan Ashley, the Chief Marketing Officer for Suniva, an American
company that produces high-efficiency solar cells in Georgia, doesn't
mince words.

"The Chinese strategy is very clear. They are engaging in predatory
financing and they're trying to drive everybody else out of the
market. When you've got free money you can out-dump everybody below
cost," Ashley said in an interview with Climate Progress.

That "free money" Ashley refers to is the cheap debt provided by the
Chinese Development Bank (CDB). Here's how the CDB works its magic:

The CDB was originally set up as a "policy bank," to operate as an arm
of the Chinese central government, doling out public funding to
support central government development programs. Now it is a "joint
stock company with limited liability" that often reports to China's
national cabinet on certain policy issues. This allows the Chinese
government to get involved in CDB activities and direct loans toward
projects officials want to support.

Unlike most regular commercial banks, CDB raises most of its money via
long-term bonds. Funders cannot take that money back out until the
term is up, so the bank can make longer-term loans to Chinese
companies. CDB also gives borrowers very low interest rates, and, if
the borrower cannot pay back the loan, it may be back-stopped by the
Chinese government.

This makes it easier, cheaper, and a lot less risky for solar
companies to obtain financing.... (cont)

[Jerry Okamura]

Okay, so what is the US going to do about it? What has Obama done about it?

"chatnoir" wrote in message
news:409751ef-8384-420b...@y21g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

[mg]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:20:42 -0700 (PDT), chatnoir
<wolfb...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>http://www.grist.org/solar-power/2011-09-10-chinese-cheaters-how-china-dominates-solar
>
>headline:
>
>Chinese cheaters? How China dominates solar
> by Stephen Lacey
>
> 10 Sep 2011 7:40 AM
>.
>
>Armed with tens of billions in loans from the Chinese government,
>Chinese solar companies have scaled at a rate unthinkable only a few
>years ago. At the end of this year, there will likely be 50,000
>megawatts (MW) of manufacturing capacity in place around the world,
>with much of that new capacity being developed in China and other
>Asian countries. (In the year 2000, there were only 100 MW of
>production capacity worldwide.)

. . .

If a socialist system, like in China, gives its corporations
low-interest loans and a capitalistic system, like in the U.S., gives
its corporations no-interest loans with the sale of equity using
stock, is one system cheating and other not cheating? Which system is
best?

[Jerry Okamura]

"mg" wrote in message news:kid1779ogfvo5pomm...@4ax.com...

The one that does not do such things, and allows them to survive without any
help from the government, or the flip side, does not hurt them, when they do
try to succeed?

[chatnoir]

On Sep 14, 8:18 am, mg <mgkel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:20:42 -0700 (PDT), chatnoir
>
>
>
>
>

> <wolfbat3...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >http://www.grist.org/solar-power/2011-09-10-chinese-cheaters-how-chin...

>
> >headline:
>
> >Chinese cheaters? How China dominates solar
> >  by Stephen Lacey
>
> > 10 Sep 2011 7:40 AM
> >.
>
> >Armed with tens of billions in loans from the Chinese government,
> >Chinese solar companies have scaled at a rate unthinkable only a few
> >years ago. At the end of this year, there will likely be 50,000
> >megawatts (MW) of manufacturing capacity in place around the world,
> >with much of that new capacity being developed in China and other
> >Asian countries. (In the year 2000, there were only 100 MW of
> >production capacity worldwide.)
>
> . . .
>
> If a socialist system, like in China, gives its corporations
> low-interest loans and a capitalistic system, like in the U.S., gives
> its corporations no-interest loans with the sale of equity using
> stock, is one system cheating and other not cheating? Which system is

> best?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

In China, I bet the firm would not fail!

[mg]

And in the U.S., allowing many firms to compete against each other and
the best ones to survive while the worst ones fail is, presumably, one
of our strengths.

[mg]

Time will tell. In 50 to 100 years, if China is prospering and the
U.S. has morphed into a country that is something like Somalia, then I
don't think the average person will care much about some abstract,
concept of freedom that they don't understand and is probably mostly
imaginary anyway.

On the other hand, if China self disintegrates and just sort of fades
away like the Soviet Union did, and the US prospers, then our version
of capitalism will be vindicated. Currently, though, our economy is
probably trending down, not only relative to China, but relative to
some other countries like Canada and Norway, for instance.

In the meantime, though, my question is whether China is "cheating" by
providing their companies with low-cost loans?

[Jerry Okamura]

"mg" wrote in message news:o8a27795tu4bm8a5g...@4ax.com...

Will the country "morph" into a country like Somalia, "if" the "people" do
not want to be "morphed"? Or can it only be like Somalia, "if" the people
allow us to become like a Somalia?

On the other hand, if China self disintegrates and just sort of fades
away like the Soviet Union did, and the US prospers, then our version
of capitalism will be vindicated. Currently, though, our economy is
probably trending down, not only relative to China, but relative to
some other countries like Canada and Norway, for instance.

Why do you think it is "trending down"?

In the meantime, though, my question is whether China is "cheating" by
providing their companies with low-cost loans?

They may well be, but so what? What are we going to do about it?

[mg]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 07:55:15 -1000, "Jerry Okamura"

You don't need an answer to the second question in order to answer the
first one.

[chatnoir]

> of our strengths.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I beleive we are competing against Chinese companies!

[mg]

Of course, but the theory is that the free-enterprise system will
produce better, more competitive businesses than a socialistic system.
Therefore, the Chinese will be unable to compete with us. That's the
theory, but as someone once said between the theory and the reality
lies a chasm.

[Will Janoschka]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 02:53:32, mg <mgke...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:17:19 -0700 (PDT), chatnoir
> <wolfb...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>

> >On Sep 14, 1:02ĸpm, mg <mgkel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 10:31:24 -0700 (PDT), chatnoir
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> <wolfbat3...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> >> >On Sep 14, 8:18ĸam, mg <mgkel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:20:42 -0700 (PDT), chatnoir
> >>
> >> >> <wolfbat3...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> >> >http://www.grist.org/solar-power/2011-09-10-chinese-cheaters-how-chin...
> >>
> >> >> >headline:
> >>
> >> >> >Chinese cheaters? How China dominates solar

> >> >> > ĸby Stephen Lacey

Currently the Chinese can produce better stuff than the US.
In China they have a "person" that can discard the bad stuff!

[El Castor]

Of course not. US union manufacturing labor costs $35 an hour. In
China it's 80 cents in rural areas and $3.50 in cities. And in China
the corporate tax rate is 25%. In the US it's 35%. Tough for a US
company to compete in a world market with the highest labor costs and
corporate taxes in the world.

Obama's "Jobs Bill" does nothing to change any of that.

[chatnoir]

You suggest we pay that in the US?

And in China
> the corporate tax rate is 25%. In the US it's 35%.

Not the effective corporate tax rate! Such companies as GE paid no
corporate tax and got money back from the government.

Tough for a US
> company to compete in a world market with the highest labor costs and
> corporate taxes in the world.
>

> Obama's "Jobs Bill" does nothing to change any of that.- Hide quoted text -

[mg]

No capitalist, worth his salt, would discard the bad stuff. :-)

[Rumpelstiltskin]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 04:04:50 -0700 (PDT), chatnoir

>On Sep 16, 2:07 am, El Castor <ElPoloGra...@nowhere.net> wrote:

<snip>

>> Of course not. US union manufacturing labor costs $35 an hour. In
>> China it's 80 cents in rural areas and $3.50 in cities.
>
>You suggest we pay that in the US?
>
>And in China
>> the corporate tax rate is 25%. In the US it's 35%.
>
>Not the effective corporate tax rate! Such companies as GE paid no
>corporate tax and got money back from the government.
>
>
>Tough for a US
>> company to compete in a world market with the highest labor costs and
>> corporate taxes in the world.
>>
>> Obama's "Jobs Bill" does nothing to change any of that.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -

The only solution to preserving the American standard of
living in the face of cheap imports made by virtual slave
labour is tariffs. I don't see any other solution, and I don't
know why there's so much opposition to it. Does anyone
really believe that an American working at 35 dollars an
hour can produce goods cheaper than somebody working
at one dollar an hour, no matter how much education the
American got? Anybody who believes that needs to have
their head examined, IMO.

[Alias]

Rebuilding the USA's infrastructure can't be done by anyone for slave
wages. Well, not unless Rick Perry wins and the Republicans win the
House and Senate.

--
Alias

[Jerry Okamura]

"mg" wrote in message news:ccg477p6tldpvu8nd...@4ax.com...

But isn't it much better to have answers to BOTH?

[El Castor]

We need a business climate in the US in which businesses can
concentrate on making the best products and beating the foreign
competition -- rather than spending all their time devising
complicated schemes, like the Double Dutch Irish Sandwich, to avoid
the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

[Rita]

Yeah, Perry is good at creating minimum wage jobs. The state leads
the nation in total minimum wage workers, according to a recent New
York Times report.

That is what the right wingers here would like to see -- workers stuck
with the minimum wage they believe would be ideal and those who
disagree s.t.f.u.

[Thumper]

That's because the vast majority of right wing voters in the south are
already minimum wage workers or slightly above and they want everyone
to suffer with them. They don't realize that when everyone gets to
the minimum wage level the corperatists in texas, Arkansas,
Mississippi and the rest of the south will lower their wages to well
below the minimum wage.

Thumper

[Alias]

If James Richard Perry wins and the Republicans take over Congress, the
minimum wage will be what people wished they could make.

--
Alias

[chatnoir]

> disagree s.t.f.u.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

They never did like the Middle Class after the 60's

[mg]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:05:05 -1000, "Jerry Okamura"

If you have a hundred problems and and you have found answers to all
of them, that is a good thing. However, if you are refusing to solve
the first one because you don't have the answer to the other 99, that,
to be honest, is just plain stupid.