Order of the Voltec
Mara
over the past 12 years I have come up against many groups that are
trying to sell you a whole load of crap from information that claims
to be based in historical fact and is really just a load of imagined
crap, to candles shaped like the High Priest's phallus. Beleive me, I
have seen them all (well, maybe not all, but enough to know the crap
from the honest). I'm quite a skeptic actually.
Being a 2nd degree member within the Order of the Voltec, I am not a
spokeperson, but I will say that the Voltec is a good path and one
that has helped me in my own magical and spiritual progress a great
deal. Anyway, just thought I would mention that Voltec is not a fly-
by-
night Order. They are honest, committed and very knowledgable.
Red Oak
II* Sorcerer
Order of the Voltec
Baird Stafford
<a407eda2-2e3e-4e75...@y18g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
Mara <Volt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anyway, just thought I would mention that Voltec is not a fly-
> by-
> night Order. They are honest, committed and very knowledgable.
Another post on another newsgroup suggests y'all incorporate at least
some material from Carlos Castaneda.
Pity.
Blessed be,
Baird
vol...@gmail.com
> In article
> <a407eda2-2e3e-4e75-81c1-e0444a2d1...@y18g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Mara <Voltec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Anyway, just thought I would mention thatVoltecis not a fly-
> > by-
>
> Another post on another newsgroup suggests y'all incorporate at least
> some material from Carlos Castaneda.
>
> Pity.
>
> Blessed be,
> Baird
Oh yes, a pity. So lets reject EVERYTHING that CC wrote because we
know so much better.
Baird Stafford
<86699d6e-0b78-49ad...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
vol...@gmail.com wrote:
> On May 13, 8:51 pm, Baird Stafford <ba...@newstaff.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <a407eda2-2e3e-4e75-81c1-e0444a2d1...@y18g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
> > Mara <Voltec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Anyway, just thought I would mention thatVoltecis not a fly-
> > > by-
> > > nightOrder. They are honest, committed and very knowledgable.
> > Another post on another newsgroup suggests y'all incorporate at least
> > some material from Carlos Castaneda.
> > Pity.
> Oh yes, a pity. So lets reject EVERYTHING that CC wrote because we
> know so much better.
Actually, we do. Castaneda was discussed heavily on these newsgroups
during the 'nineties, and the following data emerged and were proven to
my satisfaction: that "Don Juan" never existed, according to the Yaqui
(who were queried by individuals whom they would have trusted) and that
the "system" of Magic Castaneda presented bore not even a passing
resemblance to Yaqui practice. In all good conscience, I could not
describe Castaneda as anything but a fraud and a charlatan.
Now, I have no beef with Pagan religions that are established from works
of fiction: the Church of All Worlds is one of the most successful of
that ilk, and I've known of small groups that followed the Powers
created by JRR Tolkien for Middle Earth (not to mention the numerous
practitioners of Ceremonial Magick who for some reason are persuaded
that HP Lovecraft's Necromicon is, in fact, a real grimoire). My only
concern is that persons who choose to follow religions or Magical
systems based on fiction *know* that they are based on fiction - that
their credulity not be preyed upon.
Blessed be,
Baird
vol...@gmail.com
All religions are fiction, as is your "data" discussed heavily in the
nineties. The Voltec care only about what can be experienced. We make
up everything.
Gale
<snip>
>
> All religions are fiction, as is your "data" discussed heavily in the
> nineties. The Voltec care only about what can be experienced. We make
> up everything.
>
You believe there are no such things as accuracy, honesty, or empirical
verification? Or that there is no difference between a theological
speculation and an empirical lie? If you really meant to say that, I
would have to suggest that anyone who would visit your site should
instead visit a mental health professional.
--
Blessed Be,
Gale
original fiction, poetry, reviews http://www.capjewels.com
"Progress which pursues only the next invention, progress which pulls
thought out of the mind and replaces it with idle slogans, is not
progress at all. It is a beckoning mirage in a desert over which stagger
the generations of men." -- Loren Eisley, _The Firmament of Time_
vol...@gmail.com
> volt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > All religions are fiction, as is your "data" discussed heavily in the
> > up everything.
>
> You believe there are no such things as accuracy, honesty, or empirical
> verification? Or that there is no difference between a theological
> speculation and an empirical lie? If you really meant to say that, I
> would have to suggest that anyone who would visit your site should
> instead visit a mental health professional.
>
> --
> Blessed Be,
> Gale
>
>
> "Progress which pursues only the next invention, progress which pulls
> thought out of the mind and replaces it with idle slogans, is not
> progress at all. It is a beckoning mirage in a desert over which stagger
> the generations of men." -- Loren Eisley, _The Firmament of Time_
accuracy, honesty, and empirical verification are concepts that are
relative and only so important because we have elevated them. We
cherish concepts like these because without them we are lost. It stems
from a very basic fear of death and the dissolution of the ego. The
first step is to admit that we really don't know anything for sure and
the next step is to throw away our cherished and oh so holy means of
measuring everything by our standards. Our standards are nothing in
the face of what lies beyong the known. If this makes you
uncomfortable, go ahead and keep arguing and rationalizing. We don't
care because we know that we are going to die and all our precious
honesty and empirical verification will do nothing to help us fathom
the mystery of death, or life. Are these tools, yes. However, our
tools have become shackles in many cases, turning us into even bigger
tools. Mental health professionals have lies of their own. I should
know because I am one.
Gale
<snip> We don't
> care because we know that we are going to die and all our precious
> honesty and empirical verification will do nothing to help us fathom
Cut to note the appearance of one word in that elaborate piece - no
intention to change context. The word I wished to note is 'honesty.' By
your sophistry, you are attempting to defend calculated and deliberate
lies? I had merely thought you were an addled relativist. I was much too
gentle in my assessment. It appears you are announcing yourself as a
charlatan and fraud, and attempting to tell us that is a good thing.
--
Blessed Be,
Gale
original fiction, poetry, reviews http://www.capjewels.com
mark
> On May 14, 6:49 pm, Baird Stafford <ba...@newstaff.com> wrote:
>> In article
>> <86699d6e-0b78-49ad-bfc9-7303ab27c...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
>> volt...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On May 13, 8:51 pm, Baird Stafford <ba...@newstaff.com> wrote:
>> > > In article
>> > > <a407eda2-2e3e-4e75-81c1-e0444a2d1...@y18g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
>> > > Mara <Voltec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > Anyway, just thought I would mention thatVoltecis not a fly-by-
>> > > > nightOrder. They are honest, committed and very knowledgable.
>> > > Another post on another newsgroup suggests y'all incorporate at least
>> > > some material from Carlos Castaneda.
>> > > Pity.
>> > Oh yes, a pity. So lets reject EVERYTHING that CC wrote because we
>> > know so much better.
>>
>> Actually, we do. Castaneda was discussed heavily on these newsgroups
> nineties. The Voltec care only about what can be experienced. We make
> up everything.
Including the information about Castaneda? I have most of the early books,
and they're interesting, and maybe even useful, but they're not what they
purport to be.
You, on the other hand, say that you make everything up. And the difference
between you, and the typical tv commercial (brush with the Right
toothpaste, drive the right car, and use our body spray, and you'll get
laid!) is?
So, do you charge for what you do, and if so, how much? What kind of
commitment do you expect of people joining you... or are you just a looser,
with way too much time on your had, nothing to do at (looks at timestamp of
post) quarter after one on a Friday night/Saturday morning other than to
bother people on the so-old-school Internet than post imposing-sounding
hypocritical statements to a newsgroup?
mark
PS Oh, and if you're not fly-by-night, how long have you been around, and
how many folks (ballpark) are in your organization (which I've never heard
of, or seen mentioned anywhere)?
vol...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Actually, the looser part is the truth. Just taking a break from grad
school for a few months. Nothing else to do while I'm waiting for the
next plane. Very perceptive of you.
vol...@gmail.com
> volt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip> We don't
>
> > care because we know that we are going to die and all our precious
> > honesty and empirical verification will do nothing to help us fathom
> > the mystery of death, or life. <snip>
>
> Cut to note the appearance of one word in that elaborate piece - no
> intention to change context. The word I wished to note is 'honesty.' By
> your sophistry, you are attempting to defend calculated and deliberate
> lies? I had merely thought you were an addled relativist. I was much too
> gentle in my assessment. It appears you are announcing yourself as a
> charlatan and fraud, and attempting to tell us that is a good thing.
>
> --
> Blessed Be,
> Gale
>
>
> "Progress which pursues only the next invention, progress which pulls
> thought out of the mind and replaces it with idle slogans, is not
> progress at all. It is a beckoning mirage in a desert over which stagger
> the generations of men." -- Loren Eisley, _The Firmament of Time_
Yes! I am glad you pointed that out. I do defend lies! It doesn't
matter. I love you.
Baird Stafford
<1a3e219a-a9a3-45ed...@k10g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
vol...@gmail.com wrote:
> Yes! I am glad you pointed that out. I do defend lies! It doesn't
> matter. I love you.
Oh, dear! Sounds more and more like newage sewage to me! Especially
since the Voltec, whatever it or they are, seem to be too lazy to do the
hard research to back up their magical "system."
Blessed be,
Baird
Gale
<snip>
>
> Yes! I am glad you pointed that out. I do defend lies! It doesn't
> matter. I love you.
>
No, you do not love me! One cannot defend academic fraud and 'love' me.
One cannot speak in favor of the destruction of the human capacity to
communicate and 'love' me (and yes, if one cannot depend upon others to,
within a known measure, speak honestly, all communicative capacity is
lost). Your voice would destroy all that is worthwhile in the jumbled
mass that represents human history -- the capacity to inquire and learn.
Crawl back into the pit from which you mistakenly believe you have emerged!
--
Blessed Be,
Gale
original fiction, poetry, reviews http://www.capjewels.com
Joseph Littleshoes
And truths that enslave "might makes right."
--
JL
.
mark
>>><snip> We don't
<snip>
> There are lies that liberate "we hold these truths to be self evident...."
That's a lie?
>
> And truths that enslave "might makes right."
And that's a truth? Ah, right, and freedom is slavery, and black is white,
and war is peace....
mark "paging Mr. Orwell"
mark
> vol...@gmail.com wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> Yes! I am glad you pointed that out. I do defend lies! It doesn't
>> matter. I love you.
>>
Hum. "Everything I say is a lie". Therefore, saying that you love her is,
most likely, a lie.
>
> No, you do not love me! One cannot defend academic fraud and 'love' me.
> One cannot speak in favor of the destruction of the human capacity to
> communicate and 'love' me (and yes, if one cannot depend upon others to,
> within a known measure, speak honestly, all communicative capacity is
Now someone with *that* attitude, I could love. (nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
You vant cookie, leetle gorl?)
> lost). Your voice would destroy all that is worthwhile in the jumbled
> mass that represents human history -- the capacity to inquire and learn.
> Crawl back into the pit from which you mistakenly believe you have
> emerged!
Sounds like a Republican, operating on the 1984 playbook. Or, as I
suggested, another student with way too much time on his hands, no ethics,
who just wants to taunt someone he can pretend to himself to look down on,
so he can feel Important.
mark
Joseph Littleshoes
> Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
>
>>vol...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>On May 18, 9:11pm, Gale <gale...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>volt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>>><snip> We don't
>
> <snip>
>
>>There are lies that liberate "we hold these truths to be self evident...."
>
>
> That's a lie?
Can "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain
inalienable rights" be proven? isn't it an opinion, an 'philosophical'
ideal and calling it a 'truth' a lie? as it is an opinion not a truth?
>
>>And truths that enslave "might makes right."
>
>
> And that's a truth? Ah, right, and freedom is slavery, and black is white,
> and war is peace....
The winners right the histories.
>
> mark "paging Mr. Orwell"
>
You may find it amusing, but totalitarian states have and do exist.
--
JL
.
Gale
<snip>
> There are lies that liberate "we hold these truths to be self evident...."
>
> And truths that enslave "might makes right."
I'm afraid I must most firmly disagree, Joseph. The former, essentially
from Locke, can be looked at in two regards: the negative one is as, not
a lie, but an error - the empirical notion of the tabula rosa does not
correspond in entirety with human behavior though it is measurably more
accurate than the notions which preceded it and which both undervalued
environment and misunderstood human differences (pretty much in
entirety). The second measure, stressed by Jefferson's 'self-evident,'
is that the statement is not an empirical claim at all, but a
fundamental assumption, a first principle in the construction of a
metaphysical or an ethical system -- the latter within the context of
the U.S. Declaration of Independence as well as fully consistent with
Locke's defense of the Glorious Revolution.
As for the latter - I do not accept your cynical concession to
'real-politick.' I've been engaged, rather fitfully I will admit, in
battle with that notion for my entire adult life and I'll be damned if I
will label it 'true.'
--
Blessed Be,
Gale
original fiction, poetry, reviews http://www.capjewels.com
Gale
<snip>
>
> Sounds like a Republican, operating on the 1984 playbook. Or, as I
> suggested, another student with way too much time on his hands, no ethics,
> who just wants to taunt someone he can pretend to himself to look down on,
> so he can feel Important.
He claims to be in psych and the nonsense he's spouting may be connected
to a half-baked notion called TMT, that claims our worldviews, whatever
they are, exist as an imaginary comfort in the face of our inevitable
death. According to the information in one of my kid's psych books, TMT
adherents may claim everything we think and are is just a lie created to
stave off existential despair.
By the way, mark, I ain't a leetle gorl. Sorry to disappoint you, but
I'm a balding, bearded middle-aged male lit instructor. ;-)
mark
> mark wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> Sounds like a Republican, operating on the 1984 playbook. Or, as I
>> suggested, another student with way too much time on his hands, no
>> ethics, who just wants to taunt someone he can pretend to himself to look
>> down on, so he can feel Important.
>
> He claims to be in psych and the nonsense he's spouting may be connected
> to a half-baked notion called TMT, that claims our worldviews, whatever
> they are, exist as an imaginary comfort in the face of our inevitable
> death. According to the information in one of my kid's psych books, TMT
> adherents may claim everything we think and are is just a lie created to
> stave off existential despair.
Oh. *sigh* Psych. You *do* know the std. bit, about kids going into psych,
figuring if they can cure others, they can cure themselves?
>
> By the way, mark, I ain't a leetle gorl. Sorry to disappoint you, but
> I'm a balding, bearded middle-aged male lit instructor. ;-)
*Pheaux*
Hmmm, in *that* case, ah, effendi, I have here, in my bag, the very fountain
pen that has been in my family for generations, that was given to Yeshua
bin Miryam on his bar mitzvah, and I would only part with it to feed my
family, who are starving (since all our money goes to our masters, the
cats)....
mark
> mark wrote:
>> Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
>>>vol...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>On May 18, 9:11pm, Gale <gale...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>volt...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>evident...."
>>
>> That's a lie?
>
> Can "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain
> inalienable rights" be proven? isn't it an opinion, an 'philosophical'
> ideal and calling it a 'truth' a lie? as it is an opinion not a truth?
Many, many years ago, a co-worker asked me what I read all the time. I told
her mostly science fiction. She responded, and I quote, "Fiction, that's
like lies, right?"
I was so shocked it took me three days to come up with the answer: no. A lie
is where you represent something to be true that you know to be false,
Fiction, although it may tell truths, represents itself to be false.
>>
>>>And truths that enslave "might makes right."
>>
>> And that's a truth? Ah, right, and freedom is slavery, and black is
>> white, and war is peace....
>
> The winners right the histories.
>>
>> mark "paging Mr. Orwell"
>>
> You may find it amusing, but totalitarian states have and do exist.
Amusing? When Bush & co. have been working *so* hard, for years, to make the
US one?
mark
--- carefully chosen .sig
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long
as I'm the dictator." -George W Bush CNN transcript 12/18/2000
Baird Stafford
Gale <gal...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> By the way, mark, I ain't a leetle gorl. Sorry to disappoint you, but
> I'm a balding, bearded middle-aged male lit instructor. ;-)
Erm.... Gale, meet Mark, aka Silverdragon. Mark, meet Gale, who is
what he says he is but is not to be confused with Dale, who is also what
he says he is.
Blessed be,
Baird
bemoaning the fact that it's much too warm to unlimber the snowballista,
since it might come in handy right about now....
Joseph Littleshoes
All humor is based in or on suffering.
--
JL
> --- carefully chosen .sig
> "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long
> as I'm the dictator." -George W Bush CNN transcript 12/18/2000
>
.
vol...@gmail.com
> mark wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > Sounds like a Republican, operating on the 1984 playbook. Or, as I
> > suggested, another student with way too much time on his hands, no ethics,
> > who just wants to taunt someone he can pretend to himself to look down on,
> > so he can feel Important.
>
> He claims to be in psych and the nonsense he's spouting may be connected
> to a half-baked notion called TMT, that claims our worldviews, whatever
> they are, exist as an imaginary comfort in the face of our inevitable
> death. According to the information in one of my kid's psych books, TMT
> adherents may claim everything we think and are is just a lie created to
> stave off existential despair.
>
> By the way, mark, I ain't a leetle gorl. Sorry to disappoint you, but
> I'm a balding, bearded middle-aged male lit instructor. ;-)
>
> --
> Blessed Be,
> Gale
>
>
> "Progress which pursues only the next invention, progress which pulls
> thought out of the mind and replaces it with idle slogans, is not
> progress at all. It is a beckoning mirage in a desert over which stagger
> the generations of men." -- Loren Eisley, _The Firmament of Time_
OHH, I know stuff. I know things. You are dead wrong because you
reacted way too strongly without thinking about all the implications I
presented. We do not think "everything" is a made up illusion, just
most of the social aspects of our worldly agreements.
vol...@gmail.com
>
> volt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Yes! I am glad you pointed that out. I do defend lies! It doesn't
> > matter. I love you.
>
> Oh, dear! Sounds more and more like newage sewage to me! Especially
> since the Voltec, whatever it or they are, seem to be too lazy to do the
> hard research to back up their magical "system."
>
> Blessed be,
> Baird
I know. Research is so hard.
vol...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Now we are talking sense.
vol...@gmail.com
> volt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > Yes! I am glad you pointed that out. I do defend lies! It doesn't
> > matter. I love you.
>
> No, you do not love me! One cannot defend academic fraud and 'love' me.
> One cannot speak in favor of the destruction of the human capacity to
> communicate and 'love' me (and yes, if one cannot depend upon others to,
> within a known measure, speak honestly, all communicative capacity is
> lost). Your voice would destroy all that is worthwhile in the jumbled
> mass that represents human history -- the capacity to inquire and learn.
> Crawl back into the pit from which you mistakenly believe you have emerged!
>
> --
> Blessed Be,
> Gale
>
>
> "Progress which pursues only the next invention, progress which pulls
> thought out of the mind and replaces it with idle slogans, is not
> progress at all. It is a beckoning mirage in a desert over which stagger
> the generations of men." -- Loren Eisley, _The Firmament of Time_
Wow, that was awsome!
Gale
<snip>
>
> OHH, I know stuff. I know things. You are dead wrong because you
> reacted way too strongly without thinking about all the implications I
> presented. We do not think "everything" is a made up illusion, just
> most of the social aspects of our worldly agreements.
>
On the contrary, I know quite well the implications of what you
presented. I reacted strongly because your mindset is an excuse for
great, calculated evil. Great evil is done by little worms who, in their
wormy little fashion, lack integrity.
--
Blessed Be,
Gale
original fiction, poetry, reviews http://www.capjewels.com
mark
> mark wrote:
>>>You may find it amusing, but totalitarian states have and do exist.
>>
>> Amusing? When Bush & co. have been working *so* hard, for years, to make
>> the US one?
>>
No.
The famous philosopher Descartes was finishing dinner in a restaurant, when
the waitress came over, and asked him if he wanted dessert. He stroked his
beard for a minute, and then said, I think... not..." and vanished.
On the other hand, are you a blond (or a Texas Aggie)? In that case....
mark
mark
> vol...@gmail.com wrote:
> <snip>
>> OHH, I know stuff. I know things. You are dead wrong because you
>> reacted way too strongly without thinking about all the implications I
>> presented. We do not think "everything" is a made up illusion, just
>> most of the social aspects of our worldly agreements.
>>
> On the contrary, I know quite well the implications of what you
> presented. I reacted strongly because your mindset is an excuse for
> great, calculated evil. Great evil is done by little worms who, in their
> wormy little fashion, lack integrity.
>
up and go to bed.
mark
Joseph Littleshoes
> Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
>> mark wrote:
> <snip>
>>>> You may find it amusing, but totalitarian states have and do exist.
>>> Amusing? When Bush & co. have been working *so* hard, for years, to make
>>> the US one?
>>>
>> All humor is based in or on suffering.
>
> No.
>
> The famous philosopher Descartes was finishing dinner in a restaurant, when
> the waitress came over, and asked him if he wanted dessert. He stroked his
> beard for a minute, and then said, I think... not..." and vanished.
Reminds me of the lady who wanted to talk to M. Jean Paul Sartre. Being
a polite woman she goes up to M. Sartre and asks "are you free?"
--
Joseph Littleshoes
"The two main political parties ruled alternately as if by tacit
agreement. Politically they were practically indistinguishable (one
perhaps a shade more liberal) but in both camps supporters were more
swayed by personalities than by issues. Both parties were heavily
dependent on the large industrial conglomerates. Corruption was
widespread, the conglomerates dictated economic policy, and with few
outstanding exceptions, politicians' reputations were low."
.
vol...@gmail.com
> volt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > OHH, I know stuff. I know things. You are dead wrong because you
> > reacted way too strongly without thinking about all the implications I
> > presented. We do not think "everything" is a made up illusion, just
> > most of the social aspects of our worldly agreements.
>
> On the contrary, I know quite well the implications of what you
> presented. I reacted strongly because your mindset is an excuse for
> great, calculated evil. Great evil is done by little worms who, in their
> wormy little fashion, lack integrity.
>
> --
> Blessed Be,
> Gale
>
>
> "Progress which pursues only the next invention, progress which pulls
> thought out of the mind and replaces it with idle slogans, is not
> progress at all. It is a beckoning mirage in a desert over which stagger
> the generations of men." -- Loren Eisley, _The Firmament of Time_
EVIL! FROGBAT!
vol...@gmail.com
> volt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > OHH, I know stuff. I know things. You are dead wrong because you
> > reacted way too strongly without thinking about all the implications I
> > presented. We do not think "everything" is a made up illusion, just
> > most of the social aspects of our worldly agreements.
>
> On the contrary, I know quite well the implications of what you
> presented. I reacted strongly because your mindset is an excuse for
> great, calculated evil. Great evil is done by little worms who, in their
> wormy little fashion, lack integrity.
>
> --
> Blessed Be,
> Gale
>
>
> "Progress which pursues only the next invention, progress which pulls
> thought out of the mind and replaces it with idle slogans, is not
> progress at all. It is a beckoning mirage in a desert over which stagger
> the generations of men." -- Loren Eisley, _The Firmament of Time_
Great! Calculated! Evil!