Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:

Well, I am still researching into the stuff. If Shamoun is getting too
excited that he is not being refuted, he can pat himself on his back. When
the refutation comes inshallah, we will see how well Shamoun is going to
perform.

Let us see what he has to say about it.

It seems Shamoun has not understood what I said in my previous post. I said
that the best exegesis of the Qur'an is by the Qur'an itself. This means
one has to take into consideration the context and internal relationships.
Internal relationships were encapsulated in the dictum: al-Qur'an yufassiru
ba'duhu ba'dan (different parts of the Qur'an explain one another), which,
given the structure of Qur'anic material, was argued to provide the most
correct method of understanding the Qur'an. One good example would be of
explanation of one aya in the Qur'an by another concerns a question of
which might arise from Sura 44:3. It is explained in Sura 97:1

We sent it down during a Blessed Night: [Qur'an 44:3]

Which might is this blessed night, in which the Qur'an was sent down?

We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power. [Qur'an 97:1]

So, in the case of the People of the Book, the Qur'an states this phrase at
one place and then it would explain in another place who are the 'People'
and what are their 'Books'. Furthermore, the status of these 'Books' is
discussed in another place and then the status of the Qur'an is mentioned
vis-a-vis these 'Books'.

If we use this first and foremost principle of the Qur'anic exegesis in the
case of "People of the Book", it is clear that the People are 'Jews and
Christians' and their Books are 'Tawraat and Injeel'. This means that the
Qur'an does not say anything else about other books in the Bible except the
mention of Zabur of David(P). And unfortunately for Shamoun he has not
learnt his lessons well. He is still try to push the fact that the Qur'an
confirms the Bible whereas the Qur'an does not even mention the Bible at
all. It only mentions the scriptures given to the People of the Book which
are 'tawraat' and 'injeel'.

The next issue on the list is what is the state of the Books that the
People of the Scripture. The Qur'an confirms 'tawraat' and 'injeel' and
addresses them as furqan or a criterion to judge between right and wrong
and a reminder. The Qur'an also calls itself as furqan (well! it is one of
the names of the Qur'an!) as well as a reminder. e.g.

---------

The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for
mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and
wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and
whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of
other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you;
and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should
magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be
thankful. [2:185]

So hold thou fast to the Revelation sent down to thee; verily thou art on a
Straight Way. And lo! it is in truth a Reminder for thee and for thy folk;
and ye will be questioned. [43:43-44]

-----------------

It is also worthwhile to point that the Prophet Muhammad(P) is also
addressed as a reminder.

------

Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. [88:21]

---------

As far as I know (and still researching!) all the Books from God are
reminders and criterion to judge between right and wrong.

The third issue now is what is the status of the Books owned by the People
of the Book. Are they complete or incomplete? The below verses clearly
state that the People of the Book forgot good part of the message and what
they have is what is left with them. So, that is the status of their
scriptures.

-------

Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we
appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye
(but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my
messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan,
verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with
rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he
hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude." But because of their
breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard;
they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of
the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a
few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their
misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. From those, too, who call
themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part
of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and
hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will
Allah show them what it is they have done. [3:12-14]

-------------

So, what have we got in the Scriptures of the People of the Book? Well,
that is anybody's guess. Further if we read the next few verses

-------

O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to
you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is
now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a
perspicuous Book, Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to
ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will,
unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight. [3:15-16]

-------------

It is quite clear that God has sent a clear and perspicuous Book which will
lead them out of darkness and to the straight path. It would be very hard
to understand why God will send a new Book which will guide people to the
straight path if the previous Scriptures were all intact! And it is
worthwhile to remember that not every Prophet/Messenger was sent with a
Book.

What is more interesting is that the above verse when read on context makes
clear the status of the Qur'an vis-a-vis the previous Scriptures. The
People of the Book do not have their Tawraat and Injeel intact in the
pristine condition. Further, Shamoun's unsuccessful attempts to show the
use of Muhaymin in verse 5:48 needs to be clarified.

-------

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming
whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between
them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away
from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a
divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you
one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He
hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah
ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
[5:48]

-----------

The above verse states that the Qur'an confirms the revelation of the
previous Scriptures and watcher over it. The word used is Muhaymin which
means watcher, protector or quality control. Hilali and Muhsin Khan's
interpretation of the Qur'an that is based on the exegetical interpretation
(i.e., Tabari, Qurtubi and Ibn Kathir) says that Muhaymin means confirming
truth and falsifying the falsehood that is there in the previous
Scriptures. So, there we go!

What is more interesting in the above verse is that the Prophet(P) is asked
to judge the People of the Book by what is revealed to him, i.e., the
Qur'an, and not to follow the desires of the People of the Book. So, the
statements that we are used to seeing here on theis newsgroup that the
Qur'an gives 'authority' to the Bible is simply false and misleading.

Another verse which is frequently quoted to support that the Bible is
uncorrupted is :

------

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard
it (from corruption). [15:9]

---------

I would ask the Christian missionaries just to read the tafsir of the verse
and which Message it is talking about.

Shamoun, what have to demonstrated till now? "Covenant was still known and
available at the time of Muhammad" in 2:40-42? If I say that I forgot half
of the book then what is left with me? The answer is the other half. It no
way implies that the whole book is remembered by me.

And well, Shamoun is the one who is trying to show that the Qur'an says
that the Scriptures of the People of the Book are intact. Now that he has
understood the problem that they do not have in toto; he wants me to show
that whatever Scripture is with them is what is correct. Firstly, the
simply answer to this question is 'I do not know what is with you'. And I
have the Qur'an to judge what is with you.

Unfortunately, if Shamoun had read the above verse it opnly talks about
Tawraat and Injeel. He is cleverly extrapolating it to the whole of the
Hebrew Bible as being correct and endorsed by Jesus(P).

The extent of canon of both the Jewish and Christian scriptures was debated
even into 5th century; the problem is still for the Christianity as the
extent of what goes into the 'canon' was disputed even in 16th century, 900
years after the advent of Islam! The Anchor Bible Dictionary says:

"At its inception Christianity inherited from Judaism a rich trove of
scripture, including the Law of Moses, the prophetic books, and a great
variety of other writings that were authoritative for various groups of
Jews, but it did not inherit a canon, for Judaism had not in the 1st
century made a list or collection setting limits to its scripture........
Not until the end of the 2d century did Christians begin to take an
interest in defining the scope of authoritative Jewish writings (Melito, in
Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 4.26.13-14) and thus begin to think in terms of an
"Old Testament" canon, an issue that continued to be debated into the 5th
century. And not until the 4th century did Christians begin to draw up
lists of authoritative Christian writings and thus attempt to form a "New
Testament" canon, the extent of which was not fully agreed even in the 5th
century. Hence during most of its first four centuries, the church had
scripture, but no set canon."

David Noel Freedman (Ed.), The Anchor Bible Dictionary, 1997, New York:
Doubleday, (Under Canon, New Testament).

So, the argument is if Jesus(P) had endorsed the Hebrew Bible, why did the
Christians still debated the extant of the Hebrew Bible into the 5th
century?

Well, go up and read how the exegesis of the Qur'an is carried out. And do
not parrot and issue emotional statements.

By the way, let me remind you of how to carry the discourse between two
people who hardly know each other. I have never given you permission to
shorten my name of Saif or whatever. Please address me as Saifullah or Dr.
Saifullah. And please learn to maintain the decorum when addressing some
unknown person.

Now your buddy Katz once upon a time was talking about 'Who is afraid of
textual criticism?" Finally it so happened that he was really afraid of it
and started calling the textual critics of the Bible as 'liberal scholars'
etc etc.

I have already refuted most of the stuff there at:

http://salam.muslimsonline.com/~islamawe/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html

Further the results of textual criticism of the Bible have clearly shown
that the Bible was never agreed upon as one set of Books by all the
Christians of the  world. Check out:

http://salam.muslimsonline.com/~islamawe/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html

Now since you the boasting about thousands of manuscripts of the Bible,
what result does that give us in terms of the reliability of the Bible? If
you have missed it, it is at:

http://salam.muslimsonline.com/~islamawe/Bible/Text/Bibaccuracy.html

Every textual criticism results in the formation of a critical text. What
are implications of such an exercise with respect to New Testament? Check
out:

http://salam.muslimsonline.com/~islamawe/Bible/Text/criticaltext.html

True followers of Jesus(P) are not his worshippers by the way.

Trinitarians truly believe that the Father is God, the Son is God and the
Holy Spirit is God and they are three distict entities, i.e., the Father
can't be Son can't be Holy Spirit can't be Father. So, if you are thinking
that the Qur'an does not condemn shirk please read the Qur'an carefully.

Finally if you want to do some mathematics, three distinct entities in no
way become one undistinct entity without loosing their distinct character.
Three can't be one and one can't be three.

Oh! I am sorry I do not believe in your faith and neither the carnality
associated with it and neither does the Qur'an.

If you are praying to Jesus(P) he can't save me because he could not save
himself on the cross at the first place. I am sorry preach that in your
Church.

And by the way, you religion from the Islamic point of view is 'kufr' and
abrogated by Islam not to mention your 'Bible'!

--

Dr. M S M Saifullah        NTT Basic Research Laboratories
'Islamic Awareness'        http://salam.muslimsonline.com/~islamawe/