muslims, jews, christians, sabians, anyone....
Gilberto Simpson
For a long time I have thought about the well-known passage of the
Quran:
Those who believe and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the
Christians and the Sabians. Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day,
and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord on
them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
The Quran, Sura 2, Verse 62
In contrast to some of the more narrow-minded practitioners of certain
religions, I thought that the Quranic view was remarkably expansive,
not limiting salvation to the group of people who claim to believe a
fixed and rigid creed but including good people of faith who follow
different creeds.
And later I was somewhat disappointed at finding that many Muslims
didn't necessarily read the above passage that way. And interpreters
found ways to limit the scope of the verse. "Oh, that only applies to
the religions before Islam". "Oh that only applies to Jews and
Christians who later become Muslim" etc.
Wa allahu alim, but it seems relatively clear. The necessary and
sufficient requirement is tawhid. Everything else is optional. The
other things, your deeds, certain incorrect beliefs, behaviors still
have their consequences. But the ultimately criterion is something
that is accessible to everyone and cuts across religious categories.
But recently I found a number of hadith that really clarify what the
bottom-line criteria for salvation is according to Islam.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 131:
Narrated Anas:
I was informed that the Prophet had said to Mu'adh, "Whosoever will
meet Allah without associating anything in worship with Him will go to
Paradise." Mu'adh asked the Prophet, "Should I not inform the people
of this good news?" The Prophet replied, "No, I am afraid, lest they
should depend upon it (absolutely)."
Sahih Muslim
Book 001, Number 0039:
It is narrated on the authority of 'Uthman that the Messenger of Allah
(may peace be upon him) said. He who died knowing (fully well) that
there is no god but Allah entered Paradise
Sahih Muslim
Book 001, Number 0048:
It is narrated on the authority of Mu'adh b. Jabal that the Messenger
of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Mu'adh, do you know the right
of Allah over His bondsmen? He (Mu'adh) said: Allah and His Apostle
know best. He (the Messenger of Allah) said: That Allah alone should
be worshipped and nothing should be associated with Him. He (the Holy
Prophet) said: What right have they (bondsmen) upon Him in case they
do it? He (Mu'adh) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy
Prophet) said: That He would not punish them.
W
G. Waleed Kavalec
Those who believe and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and
the Christians and the Sabians. Any who believe in Allah and the
Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with
their Lord on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
-- The Quran, Sura 2, Verse 62
[...]
> Wa allahu alim, but it seems relatively clear. The necessary and
> sufficient requirement is tawhid. Everything else is optional.Salaam
You are mostly right, IMHO. But there is an exception, if I read my
scriptures correctly:
Anyone who REJECTS the Qur'an is still in trouble.
The saving grace for most folks may be that they don't know Arabic, so
they can't reject the REAL Qur'an.
Those of us for whom the meaning came through even with the interpretaions,
we WILL be in trouble if we turn away. Because we know the truth.
Peace, and keep the Faith
G. Waleed Kavalec
EAC
Walaikum assalam.
> For a long time I have thought about the well-known passage of the
> Quran:
>
> Those who believe and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the
> Christians and the Sabians. Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day,
> and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord on
> them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
> The Quran, Sura 2, Verse 62
A little bit note here. The Qur'an here said "haaduu" and
"an-nashaara", NOT "Jewish" (even scriptures) and "Christians". The
Qur'an weren't as narrow-minded to only includes those who follow the
Rabbis and the Roman Catholic Church.
If you noticed it, the Qur'an seems to be talking about the behaviours
of people.
It should be noted that even being a "muslim" is a state of mind and
body in a certain condition, which is of course peace.
I think that "haaduu" means "gift" / "bless".
While "An-Nashaara" can goes as "Nazarens" (which came from
"Nazareth", Jesus' hometown) or... it could means "helpers".
"An-Nashaara" = "The Helper".
"
"Nasrani" is the Indonesian derivation from the Qur'anic term
"Nashaara"
meaning 'helpers', i.e. those who helped Jesus peace be upon him
against
prosecution by the Jews. Interestingly, the people in Medinah are
called
"Anshaar", also meaning 'helpers', because they helped Muhammad peace
be
upon him against prosecution by the Quraish.
"
My memory about "as-shaabiiina" is a little bit fuzzy, I think that it
means "the people" or something like that?
> And interpreters
> found ways to limit the scope of the verse.
Yes. Some people tend to interpret things narrowly. This is how 'they'
deceived people, by interpreting things narrowly, even up to the point
that it become false.
> "Oh, that only applies to
> the religions before Islam".
It should be noted that God changes the rules and laws toward the
believers according to the the situation.
For example, did Adam's children sinned because they married their
brothers and sisters from the same father and mother?
> "Oh that only applies to Jews and
> Christians who later become Muslim" etc.
Jews and Christians ARE Muslims, IF they adopted peace as their
religion. And they're also Mu'min, IF they believe in God.
Ghostwriter Yusuf
Thank you so much, Gilberto, for the citations. They are very helpful!
May the peace of Allah be with you!
GY
Nordin
The criteria is to belief in the One and only GOD first and foremost.
The comes the belief in the rest like the prophets, angels, books and
so on.
And regarding the prophets, books and angels, we are not told about
all of them, so there is no chance for us to know all of them. But
there is one and the only GOD.
Arguments about GOD can be classified into:
1. The existence or lack thereof of GOD
2. The number of GOD
3. The attributes of GOD
To a muslim, the answers to these questions form the basis of TAWHID,
and the best answer so far as I know is Surah AL-Ikhlas.
asimm...@yahoo.com
> You are mostly right, IMHO. But there is an exception, if I read my
> scriptures correctly:
>
This verse is made directly in the context of the claims of the Bani
Israel that they were the chosen people of God, and because of this,
entitled to Paradise. In this very surah, God recounts how their
exclusivism caused them to reject that very Messenger that they knew
was bestowed the truth from the Most High. "They recognize him as
they recognize their own sons". The Quran is refuting the baseless
claim of the Israelites, and further, it argues that the claim to
their belief in God and the Hereafter is a lie. If one truly believes
in God and accountability, he/she will accept the truth no matter
where it comes from. That is why, in the very beginning of the surah,
God refers to the people who accepted the Quran as "they believe is
what has been revealed to you and what has been revealed before you"
and they are "CERTAIN OF THE HEREAFTER."
Thus, undoubtedly the quality of a person entitled to Paradise is not
dependent on the label one claims himself to be, but upon living his
life according to the true reality that God is one, and man will be
held accountable. It is ultimately this belief that causes man to
accept the truth no matter where it comes from. It is very
interesting the placement of this ayah, because the very surah
recounts a tradition that existed among many of the Israelites,
including slaying their own Prophets. The claim that those people
believed in God and the Hereafter was clearly nothing but a lie.
hasan schiers
"G. Waleed Kavalec" <G.Wa...@Kavalec.com> wrote in message
news:47594d65.03041...@posting.google.com...
> ti...@umich.edu (Gilberto Simpson) wrote in message
news:<26caaadf.03041...@posting.google.com>...
>
>
> The saving grace for most folks may be that they don't know Arabic, so
> they can't reject the REAL Qur'an.
>
> Those of us for whom the meaning came through even with the
interpretaions,
> we WILL be in trouble if we turn away. Because we know the truth.
>
I have oftten had the same thought:
Once you "really know" something, you can't unknow it. You can ignore it,
you can refuse to act on it, you can repress it, you can attempt to redefine
it....but you can't "unknow it". Acting on real knowledge is it's own
imperative and can be quite a burden.
I also find the constant harping on who is or isn't a believer tiresome. You
would think that those so engaged in the fine details of others' salvation
would be more attentive to their own.
Not as much fun, but much more productive. It never ceases to amaze me how
the neo-scholarly arrogate Allah's (swt) prerogatives with impunity. Fear
Allah!
Who was it that said, "Say something good or remain silent"?...good advice,
that.
...hasan
Ghostwriter Yusuf
> Those of us for whom the meaning came through even with the interpretaions,
> we WILL be in trouble if we turn away. Because we know the truth.
Salaam --
You are absolutely right, of course, and I want to note for the record
(on the theory that Christians who have been drawn to the Qur'an may
be among those reading this post) that it was precisely this
unavoidable conclusion that led me, after thirty years of
Christianity, to turn to Islam.
In short: Once you realize that it's a gold mine you've discovered,
some changes are in order.
Yusuf
Jeremiah McAuliffe
(Nordin) wrote:
>I am inclined to agree.
>
>The criteria is to belief in the One and only GOD first and foremost.
And God's are the Most Beautiful Names.... so, call on God using any
of them.....
Jeremiah McAuliffe ali...@city-net.com
http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/mcauliffe/
Heavy Music
http://www.ampcast.com/jeremiah
G. Waleed Kavalec
news:92717884.03041...@posting.google.com...
[snip]
> Thus, undoubtedly the quality of a person entitled to Paradise is not
> dependent on the label one claims himself to be, but upon living his
> life according to the true reality that God is one, and man will be
> held accountable
Salaam
We are clearly on the same page brother. Islam is *within*, and it
might be found in the heart of one who calls himself Christian, Jew,
Sabian, etch
Peace
G..
------------------------
"Mind like parachute - only work when open."
--Charlie Chan
Paul O. BARTLETT
> Some times it easy to be influensed by our biases to the extent that
> we do not consider the validity of other positions - "narrow-minded
> practitioners".
I hope you include Muslims among those who can be influenced by
their biases to the extent that they do not consider the validity of
other positions.
--
Paul Bartlett
bartlett at smart.net
PGP key info in message headers
saifu
Bismillah, Alhamdulillah, Wasselaatu Wasselaam 'alaa Resulillah,
> On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, saifu wrote (small excerpt):
>
> > Some times it easy to be influensed by our biases to the extent that
> > we do not consider the validity of other positions - "narrow-minded
> > practitioners".
>
> I hope you include Muslims among those who can be influenced by
> their biases to the extent that they do not consider the validity of
> other positions.
I hold this position, "include Muslims among those who can be influenced by
> their biases" - as can be seen from my past post here on SRI: Shaikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyya, speaking about Muslims following diffrent path says:
"Even so, not infrequently we find the proposition of a man's rival
contain an element of truth or his argument is substantially true to
some extent. By rejecting the rival view as entirely false, he rejects
the partial truth his rival may have. And his rival acts likewise.
Many a time I saw orthodox Muslims split up on questions of
predestinaton, Devine Attributes, authority of the companions, etc.,
or a majority of doctors and numerous latter-day scholars concerning
questions of law, not to metion the innovators whose case is clear
enough. In the same way I frequently saw the predominance of the same
attitude among those who claim to be experts on the law as well as the
mystics and factions of mystics. The phenomenon is widespread." -
Kitab Iqtida' as-Siraat al-Mustaqim Mukhalafat ashab al-Jahim page
38-39 (Translated by Muhammad Umar Memon)
Saifu,
G. Waleed Kavalec
news:ef863243.03042...@posting.google.com...
> I wonder if he considered the Qur'anic Ayah:
>
> "And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be
> accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers" -
> Surah Al-Imran 85.
Salaam Saifu
I wonder if you considered the word SEEK in the above ayat?
Yes, if someone knows Islam and still SEEKS another religion, they will
be one of the losers.
But if they have not yet found Islam, what then?
> This above Tafsir (explanation) by Ibn 'Abbas indicates that Allah
> does not accept any deed or work from anyone, if it does not conform
> to the Law that was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (sallalahu
> 'alaihi wasallam), after Message of his Prophethood was communicated.
Never ignore the word "communicated".
Arabic is only spoken by 4.17 percent of the worlds population (and
than includes non-native speakers). The true Qur'an is that message as
revealed in Arabic.
Based on this ONLY THOSE 4.167 percent can be rejected based
solely on their failure to embrace Islam (as we generally understand it).
But the Qur'an tells us clearly that THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM
and do good works need not grieve.
Trust in Him.
Peace
G.
saifu
Bismillah, Alhamdulillah, Wasselaatu Wasselam 'alaa Resulillah,
[Reposting with some additions - my post does not appear on Googles]
> Asalam-alaikum,
>
Wa Alaikum Asselaam WaRuhmetullah,
> For a long time I have thought about the well-known passage of the
> Quran:
>
<snip> The Quran, Sura 2, Verse 62
>
> In contrast to some of the more narrow-minded practitioners of
certain
> religions, I thought that the Quranic view was remarkably expansive,
> not limiting salvation to the group of people who claim to believe a
> fixed and rigid creed but including good people of faith who follow
> different creeds.
>
> And later I was somewhat disappointed at finding that many Muslims
> didn't necessarily read the above passage that way. And interpreters
> found ways to limit the scope of the verse. "Oh, that only applies to
> the religions before Islam". "Oh that only applies to Jews and
> Christians who later become Muslim" etc.
>
>
Some times it easy to be influensed by our biases to the extent that
we do not consider the validity of other positions - "narrow-minded
practitioners". Gilberto seems to have missed other relevant Qur'anic
and Hadith textual evidence that would make his position untenable. I
wonder If he considered the Qur'anic Ayah:
"And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be
accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers" -
Surah Al-Imran 85.
Ibn 'Abbas said, about the Ayah:
"Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and
Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day", that Allah
revealed the following Ayah afterwards,
"And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be
accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers" -
Surah Al-Imran 85.
This above Tafsir (explanation) by Ibn 'Abbas indicates that Allah
does not accept any deed or work from anyone, if it does not conform
to the Law that was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (sallalahu
'alaihi wasallam), after Message of his Prophethood was communicated.
Before that, every individual who followed the guidance of the
Prophets relevant to his time was on the correct path, the correct
guidance and will be saved.
The majority of Qur'anic commentators limit the scope of the verse.
Only the Jews, Christians, Sabians, and generally, "whoever believes
in Allah and the Last Day" and adhered to the faith
that Islam considers true belief as revealed to the Messengers and
prophets before the advent of Islam are promised Allah's promise in
the afterlife. After being informed of the final Messenger (sallalahu
'alaihi wasallam) and the revelation that he brought with him, failure
to follow it would be Kufr.
The Messenger of Allah (sallalahu 'alaihi wasallam) said, "There are
three people who will receive their rewards twice: A person from the
People of the Book [Jews and Christians] who believed in his prophet
and believed in Muhammad..." - Sahih Al-Bukhari and Muslim.
> Wa allahu alim, but it seems relatively clear. The necessary and
> sufficient requirement is tawhid. Everything else is optional. The
> other things, your deeds, certain incorrect beliefs, behaviors still
> have their consequences. But the ultimately criterion is something
> that is accessible to everyone and cuts across religious categories.
>
>
>
> But recently I found a number of hadith that really clarify what the
> bottom-line criteria for salvation is according to Islam.
>
>
<snip... Ahadith>
The following Hadith would provide the explanation of the Ahadith that
you quoted. It would remove any misconception that may be raised.
The Prophet (salllahu 'alaihi wasallam) said, "By the One in whose
hand my soul is, no Jew or Christian of this community hears about me
- that is from the community of people from the time of the Prophet
(salllahu 'alaihi wasallam) until the Day of Judgement - and then does
not follow me - or he said does not believe in what I brought - except
that he is from the inhabitants of the Hell-fire." - Sahih Muslim.
Everyone who hears the message of Islam clearly and rejects it, will
have evidence aginst him. And Whoever dies without having heard the
message, then his case is in the hands of Allah who is just. Be
assured that Allah's justice and mercy is complete and hence it is
impossible for Him (subhanehu wata'alaa) to punish those who do not
deserve punishment.
Allah (subhanehu wata'alaa) says:
"Whosoever goeth right, it is only for (the good of) his own soul that
he goeth right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No
laden soul can bear another's load. We never punish until We have sent
a messenger." - Surah Al-Isra' 15.
Saifu,
Gilberto Simpson
> ti...@umich.edu (Gilberto Simpson) wrote in message news:<26caaadf.03041...@posting.google.com>...
Asalam-alaikum Saifu,
> > For a long time I have thought about the well-known passage of the
> > Quran:
Those who believe and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the
Christians and the Sabians. Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day,
and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord on
them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
The Quran, Sura 2, Verse 62
> > In contrast to some of the more narrow-minded practitioners of certain
> > religions, I thought that the Quranic view was remarkably expansive,
> > not limiting salvation to the group of people who claim to believe a
> > fixed and rigid creed but including good people of faith who follow
> > different creeds.
> > And later I was somewhat disappointed at finding that many Muslims
> > didn't necessarily read the above passage that way. And interpreters
> > found ways to limit the scope of the verse. "Oh, that only applies to
> > the religions before Islam". "Oh that only applies to Jews and
> > Christians who later become Muslim" etc.
> Some times it easy to be influenced by our biases to the extent that
> we do not consider the validity of other positions - "narrow-minded
> practitioners".
I would disagree. I actually do consider the validity of other
positions. That's actually why I would like to fully explore the
possibility that the Quran can be read in the more "inclusive" way.
And I agree that I have certain biases but then so do others. I think
there are totally understandable emotional reasons why Muslims in many
parts of the world would want to demonize non-Muslims (Christian
Serbs, Israelis, Hindus in Kashmir and Gujurat, etc.) and would have a
hard time seeing them in Jannah.
> Gilberto seems to have missed other relevant Qur'anic
> and Hadith textual evidence that would make his position untenable.
I think that there are multiple verses that address the same topic and
which can be invoked. And even if you are right, you haven't given a
convincing argument for what you seem to be trying to argue.
For example, in the Quran, aren't the errors of the Jews and
Christians supposed to be lessons for us that we are supposed to learn
from?
[2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except
he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say:
Bring your proof if you are truthful.
[2.112] Yes! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the
doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is
no fear for him nor shall he grieve.
[2.113] And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good)
and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while
they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no
knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on
the day of resurrection in what they differ.
So why should Muslims be so eager to be as exclusive as the previous
religions? That was one of their flaws that we should guard against:
following our "vain desires", believing that we are the only ones with
guidance and that everyone else is horribly wrong. Why should we
generalize and say that all of the People of the Book of this time are
categorically damned? After all...
[3.113] They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is
an upright party; they recite Allah's communications in the nighttime
and they adore (Him).
[3.114] They believe in Allah and the last day, and they enjoin what
is right and forbid the wrong and they strive with one another in
hastening to good deeds, and those are among the good.
[3.115] And whatever good they do, they shall not be denied it, and
Allah knows those who guard (against evil).
Doesn't this refer to communities of Jews and Christians in the time
fo the prophet (saaws) not just before?
Wa allahualim, but it seems like in addition for the scathing
criticisms of *certain* Jews and Christians for their excesses and
errors, there are also statements in the Quran which approve of the
intentions and actions of some who profess to be Jews and Christians.
> I
> wonder If he considered the Qur'anic Ayah:
> "And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be
> accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers" -
> Surah Al-Imran 85.
Actually I have. But then what is Islam? I mean, the Quran also says
that Abraham (as) was a Muslim. And that he wasn't a Jew or a
Christian because the Torah and Gospel weren't revealed until after
him. So if "Muslim" simply meant following the teachings of Muhammad
(saaws) or following the Quran, then this wouldn't make sense. Somehow
"Islam" applies to something more that doesn't depend on the Quran.
> Ibn 'Abbas said, about the Ayah:
> "Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and
> Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day", that Allah
> revealed the following Ayah afterwards,
> "And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be
> accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers" -
> Surah Al-Imran 85.
> This above Tafsir (explanation) by Ibn 'Abbas indicates...
But why should the text be read his way?
> The majority of Qur'anic commentators limit the scope of the verse.
So some don't?
> Only the Jews, Christians, Sabians, and generally, "whoever believes
> in Allah and the Last Day" and adhered to the faith
> that Islam considers true belief as revealed to the Messengers and
> prophets *before* the advent of Islam are promised Allah's promise in
> the afterlife.
But why read "Islam" in the narrow-sense of the practices and
teachings of Muhammad (saaws)? Why not "Islam" in the sense of the
common teaching of all the prophets?
> The Messenger of Allah (sallalahu 'alaihi wasallam) said, "There are
> three people who will receive their rewards twice: A person from the
> People of the Book [Jews and Christians] who believed in his prophet
> and believed in Muhammad..." - Sahih Al-Bukhari and Muslim.
Actually, that reminds me of another issue. As Muslims, we are
supposed to believe in all the prophets and messengers. And according
to some accounts, there were as many as 124,000 prophets while only 25
or so are mentioned by name in the Quran and hadith. So basically
there are prophets that we are supposed to believe in (in some sense)
but we can't be sure about their names (at least not based on the
Quran and sunnah).
Even if the 124,000 figure is based on a weak hadith, we know that
there are more messengers and prophets than we can surely know by
name.
[4.164] And (We sent) apostles We have mentioned to you before and
apostles we have not mentioned to you; and to Musa, Allah addressed
His Word, speaking (to him):
So what if, for example, it turned out that Zoroaster or Buddha or
Confucius were actually prophets of God that we are required to
believe in, but perhaps their messages got garbled. Are we guilty of
kufr because we aren't able to do the research and determine their
prophethood specifically by name? Think about it this way. Some
Musilms are willing to say that a non-Muslim is going to hell forever
and ever beacuse they didn't recognize one prophet. While as Muslims,
we know that there have been thousands of prophets in the past (and in
some cases, we've probably heard of them, and their names are part of
the world's religious history) but we would fail to recognize them
ourselves.
Can a person of the People of the Book be considered to have faith in
Muhammad (saaws) in the same implicit way that we have faith in the
thousands of prophets who we don't specifically recognize?
> > Wa allahu alim, but it seems relatively clear. The necessary and
> > sufficient requirement is tawhid. Everything else is optional. The
> > other things, your deeds, certain incorrect beliefs, behaviors still
> > have their consequences. But the ultimately criterion is something
> > that is accessible to everyone and cuts across religious categories.
> > But recently I found a number of hadith that really clarify what the
> > bottom-line criteria for salvation is according to Islam.
> <snip... Ahadith>
> The following Hadith would provide the explanation of the Ahadith
that
> you quoted. It would remove any misconception that may be raised.
>
> The Prophet (salllahu 'alaihi wasallam) said, "By the One in whose
> hand my soul is, no Jew or Christian of this community hears about me
> - that is from the community of people from the time of the Prophet
> (salllahu 'alaihi wasallam) until the Day of Judgement - and then does
> not follow me - or he said does not believe in what I brought - except
> that he is from the inhabitants of the Hell-fire." - Sahih Muslim.
Waallau alim but I don't think you've gotten rid of the problem or
really responded to the first set of hadith. Unless you want to reject
the hadith in Bukhari and Muslim altogether is inauthentic, you would
have to come up with an interpretation for the first set of hadith
which is consistent with your views.
Again, the hadith are:
(and there are several others which seem to have a similar thrust)
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 131:
Narrated Anas:
I was informed that the Prophet had said to Mu'adh, "Whosoever will
meet Allah without associating anything in worship with Him will go to
Paradise." Mu'adh asked the Prophet, "Should I not inform the people
of this good news?" The Prophet replied, "No, I am afraid, lest they
should depend upon it (absolutely)."
Sahih Muslim
Book 001, Number 0039:
It is narrated on the authority of 'Uthman that the Messenger of Allah
(may peace be upon him) said. He who died knowing (fully well) that
there is no god but Allah entered Paradise
Sahih Muslim
Book 001, Number 0048:
It is narrated on the authority of Mu'adh b. Jabal that the Messenger
of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Mu'adh, do you know the right
of Allah over His bondsmen? He (Mu'adh) said: Allah and His Apostle
know best. He (the Messenger of Allah) said: That Allah alone should
be worshipped and nothing should be associated with Him. He (the Holy
Prophet) said: What right have they (bondsmen) upon Him in case they
do it? He (Mu'adh) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy
Prophet) said: That He would not punish them.
And for all of them, the plain meaning seems to be that the only
criteria for entering Paradise is to believe "No god but God". And
especially the first hadith seems to emphasize the point that there
are no other requirements. And if that's true, it actually makes sense
that this claim would be surprising to Muadh and that Muhammad (saaws)
would be concerned about what would happen in society if people relied
on this teaching absolutely.
Now, you have to explain how you can read those hadith and reconcile
them with the idea that there are actually other requirements to
salvation.
> The Prophet (salllahu 'alaihi wasallam) said, "By the One in whose
> hand my soul is, no Jew or Christian of this community hears about me
> - that is from the community of people from the time of the Prophet
> (salllahu 'alaihi wasallam) until the Day of Judgement - and then does
> not follow me - or he said does not believe in what I brought - except
> that he is from the inhabitants of the Hell-fire." - Sahih Muslim.
Waallahu alim, but one interpretation that seems like it would
reconcile this hadith with the others would be to say that yes, for
disbelieving in Muhammad (Saaws) after hearing of him carries some
sort of punishment in the Fire, but that as long as a person is not
guilty of shirk, they will eventually get out of the Fire. So perhaps
Christian who is actually a mushrik might be guilty but on the
otherhand a non-Zionist orthodox Jew who keeps kosher, doesn't bow
down to idols, doesn't worship the Trinity and doesn't support the
ISraeli military effort would eventually get out.
> Everyone who hears the message of Islam clearly and rejects it, will
> have evidence aginst him. And Whoever dies without having heard the
> message, then his case is in the hands of Allah who is just. Be
> assured that Allah's justice and mercy is complete and hence it is
> impossible for Him (subhanehu wata'alaa) to punish those who do not
> deserve punishment.
But what about negative dawa? If your primary source of information
about Islam is CNN, are you then accountable for finding out about
Islam, reading the Quran, sorting through all the deviant sects with
flawed aqueedas, and looking past the violent militants that give
Islam a bad name in the west?
-Gilberto
saifu
> saifu...@yahoo.com (saifu) wrote in message news:<ef863243.03042...@posting.google.com>...
> > ti...@umich.edu (Gilberto Simpson) wrote in message news:<26caaadf.03041...@posting.google.com>...
>
>
> Asalam-alaikum Saifu,
>
>
Wa Alaikum Asselam WarUhmatullah,
> > > For a long time I have thought about the well-known passage of the
> > > Quran:
>
> Those who believe and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the
> Christians and the Sabians. Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day,
> and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord on
> them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
> The Quran, Sura 2, Verse 62
>
>
> > > In contrast to some of the more narrow-minded practitioners of certain
> > > religions, I thought that the Quranic view was remarkably expansive,
> > > not limiting salvation to the group of people who claim to believe a
> > > fixed and rigid creed but including good people of faith who follow
> > > different creeds.
>
> > > And later I was somewhat disappointed at finding that many Muslims
> > > didn't necessarily read the above passage that way. And interpreters
> > > found ways to limit the scope of the verse. "Oh, that only applies to
> > > the religions before Islam". "Oh that only applies to Jews and
> > > Christians who later become Muslim" etc.
>
>
> > Some times it easy to be influenced by our biases to the extent that
> > we do not consider the validity of other positions - "narrow-minded
> > practitioners".
>
> I would disagree. I actually do consider the validity of other
> positions. That's actually why I would like to fully explore the
> possibility that the Quran can be read in the more "inclusive" way.
>
It was predicated on your classification of other's position as
"narrow-minded
practitioners". There is only one way of reading the Qur'an - based on
the truth
and not based on an outcome that one desires.
> And I agree that I have certain biases but then so do others. I think
> there are totally understandable emotional reasons why Muslims in many
> parts of the world would want to demonize non-Muslims (Christian
> Serbs, Israelis, Hindus in Kashmir and Gujurat, etc.) and would have a
> hard time seeing them in Jannah.
>
It is human nature to act this way - (Muslims, Christians, and
others). This is no
a popular voting matter. As Muslims, we are required to abide by the
command:
"And let not your hatred of a folk who (once) stopped your going to
the Inviolable Place
of Worship seduce you to transgress; but help ye one another unto
righteousness and pious
duty. Help not one another unto sin and transgression, but keep your
duty to Allah. Lo!
Allah is severe in punishment" - Surah Al-MAidah 2.
"O ye who believe ! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah,
even though it be
against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the
case be of) a rich
man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (than ye are) . So
follow not passion
lest ye lapse ( from truth ) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo!
Allah is ever Informed
of what ye do."- Surah An-Nisa' 135.
> > Gilberto seems to have missed other relevant Qur'anic
> > and Hadith textual evidence that would make his position untenable.
>
> I think that there are multiple verses that address the same topic and
> which can be invoked. And even if you are right, you haven't given a
> convincing argument for what you seem to be trying to argue.
>
I wasn't trying to provide a convincing argument. It is upto you to
actually provide
a convincing evidence supporting your position. I was trying to remind
you of other
relavant texual evidence that your post failed to consider. I did not
assume you knew
about them - I said, "Gilberto seems to have missed". If that was not
the case, why
would you ignore the most cogent evidence given your desired
conclusion is far reaching.
> For example, in the Quran, aren't the errors of the Jews and
> Christians supposed to be lessons for us that we are supposed to learn
> from?
>
> [2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except
> he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say:
> Bring your proof if you are truthful.
There are many Ayahs in the Qur'an that address the issue. Students of
Ibn Abbas (RadiAllahu 'anhu)
asked him, "Were these not revealed for the Jews and Christians?" He
said, "Subhan Allah! Are all
the glad tidings in the Qur'an for us and all the admonitions for
them? If we do what they did, our
end will be their end."
The Messenegr of Allah (sallalahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: "You will
follow the wrong
ways, of your predecessors to the extent that if they should go into
the hole of a lizard,
you too will go there." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you mean the
Jews and the Christians?"
He replied, "Whom else?" - Sahih Bukhari.
> [2.112] Yes! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the
> doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is
> no fear for him nor shall he grieve.
> [2.113] And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good)
> and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while
> they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no
> knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on
> the day of resurrection in what they differ.
>
Allah (subhanehu wata'alaa) is addressing a specific issue relavant to
the "the
Christians and the Jews". There are other clear ayahs which speak
about the
Kufr of the Jews and Christians. Avoid far-fetched interpretations. I
would recomend
that you reflect on, "submits himself entirely to Allah". Can a person
reject one of the
Messengers and yet be considered one who "submits himself entirely to
Allah"? Consider
the case of Shaitan. What was his sin? He questioned the command of
Allah (subhanehu wata'alaa):
"When thy Lord said unto the angels: lo! I am about to create a mortal
out of mire,
And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My spirit, then
fall down before him prostrate,
The angels fell down prostrate, every one.
Saving Iblis, he was scornful and became one of the disbelievers.
He said: O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before
that
which I have created with both My hands? Art thou too proud or art
thou of the high
He said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me off fire, whilst him
Thou didst
create of clay.
He said: Go forth from hence, for lo! thou art outcast, " - Surah Saad
71 - 77.
> So why should Muslims be so eager to be as exclusive as the previous
> religions? That was one of their flaws that we should guard against:
> following our "vain desires", believing that we are the only ones with
> guidance and that everyone else is horribly wrong. Why should we
> generalize and say that all of the People of the Book of this time are
> categorically damned? After all...
>
I do not believe you read my conclusion. I did not "generalize and say
that all of the
People of the Book of this time are categorically damned". I said,
"And Whoever dies without having heard the message, then his case
is in the hands of Allah who is just. Be assured that Allah's justice
and mercy is complete and hence it is impossible for Him (subhanehu
wata'alaa)
to punish those who do not deserve punishment."
Allah (subhanehu wata'alaa) says:
"Whosoever goeth right, it is only for (the good of) his own soul that
he goeth right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No
laden soul can bear another's load. We never punish until We have sent
a messenger." - Surah Al-Isra' 15.
> [3.113] They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is
> an upright party; they recite Allah's communications in the nighttime
> and they adore (Him).
> [3.114] They believe in Allah and the last day, and they enjoin what
> is right and forbid the wrong and they strive with one another in
> hastening to good deeds, and those are among the good.
> [3.115] And whatever good they do, they shall not be denied it, and
> Allah knows those who guard (against evil).
>
> Doesn't this refer to communities of Jews and Christians in the time
> fo the prophet (saaws) not just before?
>
It applies to the Jews and Christians of His time. But what would be
their
status if they rejected the Message of the Qura'an, after receiving
it?
> Wa allahualim, but it seems like in addition for the scathing
> criticisms of *certain* Jews and Christians for their excesses and
> errors, there are also statements in the Quran which approve of the
> intentions and actions of some who profess to be Jews and Christians.
>
True, it is very clear that it was praising some of those who profess
to
be Jews, and mostly those who profess to be Christians. The
Christians of Habasha
(Abysinia or Ethiopia) in particular. Among the Jews you have
Abdullahi
Ibn Salaam, and An-Najashi among the Christians of Habasha.
But once the message of Islam was communicated to them, they have no
choice
but to accept it. Consider the case of the Christians of Najraan (in
Yeman) at
the time of the Messenger of Allah (sallahu 'alaihi wasallam): Here is
the Ayah
related to them:
"(This is) the truth from thy Lord (O Muhammad), so be not thou of
those who waver.
And whoso disputeth with thee concerning him (Isa (allaihi asselaam),
after the
knowledge which hath come unto thee, say (unto him): Come! We will
summon our sons
and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and
yourselves, then we
will pray humbly (to our Lord) and (solemnly) invoke the curse of
Allah upon those who lie.
Lo! This verily is the true narrative. There is no God save Allah, and
lo! Allah is the
Mighty,, the Wise. " - Surah Al-Imran 60 - 62.
> > I
> > wonder If he considered the Qur'anic Ayah:
>
> > "And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be
> > accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers" -
> > Surah Al-Imran 85.
>
>
> Actually I have. But then what is Islam? I mean, the Quran also says
> that Abraham (as) was a Muslim. And that he wasn't a Jew or a
> Christian because the Torah and Gospel weren't revealed until after
> him. So if "Muslim" simply meant following the teachings of Muhammad
> (saaws) or following the Quran, then this wouldn't make sense. Somehow
> "Islam" applies to something more that doesn't depend on the Quran.
>
>
He was a Muslim as in one who surrendered to Allah (subhanehu
wata'alaa). How can one
surrender to Allah (subhanehu wata'alaa) while rejecting His last
Messenger? And he
was not a Christian or a Jew.
"Ibrahim was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man
who had surrendered
(to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters." - Surah Al Imran 67.
> > Ibn 'Abbas said, about the Ayah:
>
> > "Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and
> > Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day", that Allah
> > revealed the following Ayah afterwards,
>
> > "And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be
> > accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers" -
> > Surah Al-Imran 85.
>
>
> > This above Tafsir (explanation) by Ibn 'Abbas indicates...
>
> But why should the text be read his way?
>
He knows what was revealed in precedence to the other. But you do not
need his reading to
find the Ayah (Surah Al-Imran 85) in the Qur'an. He was a student of
the Messenger of Allah
(salllahu 'alaihi wasallam), and he stands at the top of all Qur'an
interpraters. All tafsir
books largely depend on his tafsir or that of his students. The other
Sahabi known for his
Tafsir is Ibn Mas'ud (radiallahu 'anhu).
> > The majority of Qur'anic commentators limit the scope of the verse.
>
> So some don't?
>
Islam after the first two centuries produced many who diverted from
the Origional
understanding. I do not mean I know a valid commentary that
contradicts Ibn Abbas.
Certainly you will find abberations as with many other issues.
> > Only the Jews, Christians, Sabians, and generally, "whoever believes
> > in Allah and the Last Day" and adhered to the faith
> > that Islam considers true belief as revealed to the Messengers and
> > prophets *before* the advent of Islam are promised Allah's promise in
> > the afterlife.
>
> But why read "Islam" in the narrow-sense of the practices and
> teachings of Muhammad (saaws)? Why not "Islam" in the sense of the
> common teaching of all the prophets?
>
Islam means unconditional Surrender to the will of Allah (subhanehu
wata'alaa).
What is Islam? In the well known Hadith of Omar bin al-Khattab
(radiallahu 'anhu) who
said: One day when we were with Allah's Messenger (sallalahu 'alayhi
wa sallam) a man
with very white clothing and very black hair came up to us. No mark of
travel was visible
on him and none of us recognized him. Sitting down besides the Prophet
(sallalahu 'alayhi
wa sallam), leaning his knees against his, and placing his hands on
his thighs, he said,
"Tell me, Muhammad, about Islam."
"Islam means that you should testify that there is no god but Allah
and that Muhammad is
Allah's Messenger, that you observe the prayer, pay the zakah, fast
during Ramadan, and
make the pilgrimage to the House if you have the means to go." - Sahih
Muslim
> > The Messenger of Allah (sallalahu 'alaihi wasallam) said, "There are
> > three people who will receive their rewards twice: A person from the
> > People of the Book [Jews and Christians] who believed in his prophet
> > and believed in Muhammad..." - Sahih Al-Bukhari and Muslim.
>
> Actually, that reminds me of another issue. As Muslims, we are
> supposed to believe in all the prophets and messengers. And according
> to some accounts, there were as many as 124,000 prophets while only 25
> or so are mentioned by name in the Quran and hadith. So basically
> there are prophets that we are supposed to believe in (in some sense)
> but we can't be sure about their names (at least not based on the
> Quran and sunnah).
>
> Even if the 124,000 figure is based on a weak hadith, we know that
> there are more messengers and prophets than we can surely know by
> name.
>
> [4.164] And (We sent) apostles We have mentioned to you before and
> apostles we have not mentioned to you; and to Musa, Allah addressed
> His Word, speaking (to him):
>
You are obliged to acknowledge the ones that are mentioned to you. You
are not
required to know the others. You will enter the realm of speculation
which will lead you to more confusion.
> So what if, for example, it turned out that Zoroaster or Buddha or
> Confucius were actually prophets of God that we are required to
> believe in, but perhaps their messages got garbled. Are we guilty of
> kufr because we aren't able to do the research and determine their
> prophethood specifically by name? Think about it this way. Some
> Musilms are willing to say that a non-Muslim is going to hell forever
> and ever beacuse they didn't recognize one prophet. While as Muslims,
> we know that there have been thousands of prophets in the past (and in
> some cases, we've probably heard of them, and their names are part of
> the world's religious history) but we would fail to recognize them
> ourselves.
>
This does not concern us. We leave it to the care of Allah (subhanehu
wata'laa).
Muslims rely on the final Revealation, the Qur'an. Are we informed
about these
things. If we are not informed about it, we are not responsible. What
is the
point of speculation. We have a clear command to believe in the lat
Messenger
(sallahu 'alahi wasallam).
"Allah tasketh not a SOUL beyond its scope ..." - Surah Al-Baqara
286.> Can a person of the People of the Book be considered to have
faith in
> Muhammad (saaws) in the same implicit way that we have faith in the
> thousands of prophets who we don't specifically recognize?
>
You probably failed to read the whole post before you reply. The
following
hadith was included in my previous post - see below. Here is the
Hadith:
We can't take one Ayah or hadith and based on that one textual
evidence,
make a conclusion. We should consider what is in the Quran and Hadith
that are relavant and complement each other to explain the correct
position
on any question.
The *key* to Paradise is the statment, "There is none worthy of
worship except Allah."
But there should be no misunderstanding that the simple saying of," I
bear witness that
there is none worthy of worship except Allah and I bear witness that
Muhammad is His servant and messenger," is not sufficient for
salvation.
The qur'an provides us with examples that the hypocrites used to make
the statment
yet Allah (subhanehu wata'laa) describes them as liars and says that
they shall
abide in the lowest abyss of the Hell-fire. This brings us the
question:
What is the definition of "That Allah alone should be worshipped and
nothing"?
Making the shahadah is a form of a testimony. When we testify to
something, we must know
what it is that we are testifying about. We must have the knowledge of
what is meant
by the shahadah. We must understand what the shahadah is affirming and
what the shahadah
is negating. The Pagan Quraish understood the meaning and refused.
This also indicates that
when the Messenger of ALlah (sallalahu 'alaihi wasallam informs Most
of the *knowlagable* Sahaba
- as in your hadith evidence above - He knows that they understand the
conditions of
making the Shahada. The presense of certainty and the absence of doubt
is also another important
factor. Allah (subhanehu wata'laa) says:
"So know that there is no God save Allah, and ask forgiveness for your
sin" - Surah Muhammad 19.
The Messenger of Allah (salllahu 'alaihi wasallam) said,
"Whoever dies *knowing* that there is no one worthy of worship except
Allah shall enter Paradise."
- Sahih Muslim.
Allah (subhanehu wata'laa) says:
"the (true) believers are those only who believe in Allah and His
messenger and afterward doubt not,
but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah.
Such are the sincere" (al-Hujurat 15).
The Messenger of Allah (salllahu 'alaihi wasallam) said:
"No one meets Allah with the testimony that there is none worthy of
worship but Allah and I am the
Messenger of Allah, and he has no doubt about that statement, except
that he will enter Paradise."
- Sahih Muslim.
Total Submission is another important condition which relates to most
of your
question - Islam means submission to the will and commands of Allah.
Allah
(subhanehu wata'laa) says:
"But nay, by your Lord, they will not truly believe until they make
you (the Messenger
of Allah) judge of what is in dispute between them and find within
themselves
no dislike of which you decide, and submit with full submission" Surah
an-Nisa 65.
The above Ayah makes it clear that a person's faith is negated by the
fact that he
fails to submit to the judgemnet of The Messenger of Allah (salllahu
'alaihi wasallam).
>From this, follows that the case of failing to acknowledge his
Messengership should be obvious.
> > The Prophet (salllahu 'alaihi wasallam) said, "By the One in whose
> > hand my soul is, no Jew or Christian of this community hears about me
> > - that is from the community of people from the time of the Prophet
> > (salllahu 'alaihi wasallam) until the Day of Judgement - and then does
> > not follow me - or he said does not believe in what I brought - except
> > that he is from the inhabitants of the Hell-fire." - Sahih Muslim.
>
> Waallahu alim, but one interpretation that seems like it would
> reconcile this hadith with the others would be to say that yes, for
> disbelieving in Muhammad (Saaws) after hearing of him carries some
> sort of punishment in the Fire, but that as long as a person is not
> guilty of shirk, they will eventually get out of the Fire. So perhaps
> Christian who is actually a mushrik might be guilty but on the
> otherhand a non-Zionist orthodox Jew who keeps kosher, doesn't bow
> down to idols, doesn't worship the Trinity and doesn't support the
> ISraeli military effort would eventually get out.
>
Disbelieving in the last Messenger (sallahu 'alaihi wasallam) would be
considered Kufr. For the Jews,
it also apply because of their rejection of Isa ('alaihi wasallam).
Again, In the well known Hadith
of Omar bin al-Khattab (radiallahu 'anhu) - read the intro which is
cited above:
He said, "Now tell me about Iman (faith)." He replied, "It means that
you should believe in Allah
(The Glorified and the Exalted), His angels, His books, His
Messengers, and the last day, and that
you should believe in the decreeing both of good and evil." - Sahih
Muslim.
> > Everyone who hears the message of Islam clearly and rejects it, will
> > have evidence aginst him. And Whoever dies without having heard the
> > message, then his case is in the hands of Allah who is just. Be
> > assured that Allah's justice and mercy is complete and hence it is
> > impossible for Him (subhanehu wata'alaa) to punish those who do not
> > deserve punishment.
>
> But what about negative dawa? If your primary source of information
> about Islam is CNN, are you then accountable for finding out about
> Islam, reading the Quran, sorting through all the deviant sects with
> flawed aqueedas, and looking past the violent militants that give
> Islam a bad name in the west?
>
>
The notion of Kufr implies to intentionaly denying the truth.
"And there is no sin for you in the mistakes that ye make
unintentionally, but what your
hearts purpose (that will be a sin for you). Allah is Forgiving,
Merciful." - Surah Al-Ahzab 5.
"Allah tasketh not a SOUL beyond its scope. For it (is only) that
which it hath earned, and against
it (only) that which it hath deserved. Our Lord! Condemn us not if we
forget, or miss the mark! Our
Lord! Lay not on us such a burden as Thou didst lay on those before
us! Our Lord! Impose not on us
that which we have not the strength to bear! Pardon us, absolve us and
have mercy on us, Thou, our
Protector, and give us victory over the disbelieving folk." - Surah
Al-Baqara 286
It is your sincere effort to find the truth what is important - And
ALlah (subhanehu wata'alaa) is aware of it.
" Are they then unaware that Allah knoweth that which they keep hidden
and that which they proclaim?"
- Sura Al-Baqara 77.
"We verily created a man and We know what his soul whispereth to him,
and We are NEARer to him than his
jugular vein." - Sura Qaf 16.
>
>
> -Gilberto
Saifu,
Gilberto Simpson
Let me try to summarize how I see the discussion so far.
There are a number of texts in the Quran and Hadith which seem to have
a plain meaning that suggests the only criteria for entering the
Garden is tawhid. There are other texts which say that our status is
raised or lowered by different sorts of deeds. But if we are only
concerned with jannah v. not jannah, one can point out a number of
examples which seem to emphasize how tawhid is all you need.
Maybe I'm just not understanding you but it doesn't seem like you've
specifically addressed these texts and shown what other meaning they
could have.
And I think this would be more effective and importantin terms of
responding.
Instead, what you've done is bring up other texts which seem to say
something different. Some of these texts, can still be understood in
the context of the original hypothesis that tawhid is sufficient.
(Here I'm thinking mainly of "whoever seeks a religion other than
Islam..." which can be read inclusively. And then also the hadith
which talks about Jews or Christians in the community of Muhammad...
which can be read relatively)
Other texts, don't seem relevant to the issue, so maybe I'm not just
understanding how you are using them.
> > [3.113] They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is
> > an upright party; they recite Allah's communications in the nighttime
> > and they adore (Him).
> > [3.114] They believe in Allah and the last day, and they enjoin what
> > is right and forbid the wrong and they strive with one another in
> > hastening to good deeds, and those are among the good.
> > [3.115] And whatever good they do, they shall not be denied it, and
> > Allah knows those who guard (against evil).
> > Doesn't this refer to communities of Jews and Christians in the time
> > fo the prophet (saaws) not just before?
> It applies to the Jews and Christians of His time. But what would be
> their status if they rejected the Message of the Qura'an, after receiving
> it?
But does the passage suggest that anything is missing from them for
remaining Jews or Christian? One of the good things about the Quran is
that it doesn't simplistically demonize people of different religions.
That's one of the strengths that Islam has over Christianity. Today,
evangelicals like the son of Billy Graham publically adopt intolerant
attitudes towards Islam because they believe that every non-Christian
religion leads to hell. But Islam is able to take a more nuanced
view.. because the People of the Book aren't all one way. They should
be criticized for their errors, but also commended for their virtures.
> > > I
> > > wonder If he considered the Qur'anic Ayah:
> > > "And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be
> > > accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers" -
> > > Surah Al-Imran 85.
> > Actually I have. But then what is Islam? I mean, the Quran also says
> > that Abraham (as) was a Muslim. [...] Somehow
> > "Islam" applies to something more that doesn't depend on the Quran.
> He was a Muslim as in one who surrendered to Allah (subhanehu
> wata'alaa). How can one surrender to Allah (subhanehu wata'alaa) while
> rejecting His last Messenger? And he
> was not a Christian or a Jew.
And if Muslim just means someone who followed the Shariah brought by
Muhammad (saaws) then he wasn't Muslim either. So the Quran is
obviously using the idea of Islam in a broader sense.
> > Actually, that reminds me of another issue. As Muslims, we are
> > supposed to believe in all the prophets and messengers. And according
> > to some accounts, there were as many as 124,000 prophets while only 25
> > or so are mentioned by name in the Quran and hadith. So basically
> > there are prophets that we are supposed to believe in (in some sense)
> > but we can't be sure about their names (at least not based on the
> > Quran and sunnah).
> > So what if, for example, it turned out that Zoroaster or Buddha or
> > Confucius were actually prophets of God that we are required to
> > believe in, but perhaps their messages got garbled. Are we guilty of
> > kufr because we aren't able to do the research and determine their
> > prophethood specifically by name?
> This does not concern us. We leave it to the care of Allah (subhanehu
> wata'laa). Muslims rely on the final Revealation, the Qur'an. Are we informed
> about these
> things. If we are not informed about it, we are not responsible.
So is it okay for a Christian or Jew to take the same position? Or
alternatively can a Christian say "I already believe in Jesus and
follow him the best I can. I don't know about this Muhammad person and
Jesus is enough for me." without delving and doing further research on
Islam? Or are they expected to thoroughly study Islam and decide that
Muhammad (saaws) was a prophet? How much do they have to know before
they are accountable for being accepting or not accepting the
prophethood of Muhammad?
Maybe I have a certain perspective on this question since I wasn't
raised Muslim and came out of a "Fundamentalist" Christian background.
But one of the things that turned me off of Christianity was a
basically exclusive attitude. On top of that, for a number of years I
was interested in learning about many different religions and
philosophies, buddhism, taoism, islam, bahai, different kinds of
christianity both orthodox and heretical. And I think I can understand
that many different religions have their strengths and positive
features which will be attractive to well-intentioned good people
seeking the truth. Personally, I think I had read the Quran in
translation andknew the shahadah in Arabic by 8th grade but didn't
start practicing till my senior year of college... yes I'm a
slowpoke.. a lucky slowpoke.. and I'm not sure if I've seen.. all in
one place.. a series of arguments for the truth of Islam so logically
compelling that I would want to say that anyone who didn't accept it
was absolutely morally culpable for kufr. I mean it took me more than
8 years to change my attitudes gradually...and I couldn't imagine
condensing all of that in a shorter period of time.
Peace
Gilberto