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Re: ISLAM IN FAIR WESTERN EYES 2 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Watcher
Dec 8, 2011, 4:39:43 AM12/8/11
to
On Dec 3, 9:30=A0am, BV <cv33cv33c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ISLAM IN FAIR WESTERN EYES 2
>
> Islam in Fair Western Eyes 2 Islam is the religion of monotheism and
> Fitrah: The just Norwegian orientalist doctor Erening Berg: "In Islam
> each child is born in a state of "Fitrah, as for the Christians they
> consider it as born bearing the sin.
Interesting. So, in Christianity, one starts out in a state of sin and
moves
away from sin; while in Islam, one starts out pure and learns to sin
in the
name of Allah. Very interesting indeed.
.
> ISLAM IN FAIR WESTERN EYES 2
>
> Islam in Fair Western Eyes 2 Islam is the religion of monotheism and
> Fitrah: The just Norwegian orientalist doctor Erening Berg: "In Islam
> each child is born in a state of "Fitrah, as for the Christians they
> consider it as born bearing the sin.
Interesting. So, in Christianity, one starts out in a state of sin and
moves
away from sin; while in Islam, one starts out pure and learns to sin
in the
name of Allah. Very interesting indeed.
.
DKleinecke
Dec 9, 2011, 7:02:14 PM12/9/11
to
On Dec 8, 1:39=A0am, Watcher <jeobse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> =A0.
A clever way to look at the situation but one must remember that not
all Christians accept the dogma of the original sin.
And the Islamic teaching is not exactly the opposite of original sin.
It is that every child is born a Muslim and only sometimes is
corrupted by their parents into another faith. It would, of course,
be good Islamic thought to assume a new-born child is without sin.
And then there is the perennial question of exactly what "sin" means.
A clever way to look at the situation but one must remember that not
all Christians accept the dogma of the original sin.
And the Islamic teaching is not exactly the opposite of original sin.
It is that every child is born a Muslim and only sometimes is
corrupted by their parents into another faith. It would, of course,
be good Islamic thought to assume a new-born child is without sin.
And then there is the perennial question of exactly what "sin" means.
hajj abujamal
Dec 11, 2011, 5:18:36 AM12/11/11
to
Salaam!
On 12/9/2011 4:34 PM, Steve Cleary wrote:
> Given the above, how can a Muslim claim that original sin is not true,
> if the Qu'ran and Hadith says it is? Anyone around here care to
> answer?
Allah also says "Surely man is in loss, except those who keep faith
and do the good, and counsel with truth and recommend with patience."
He says "Surely there comes to you from Me a guidance," which shows
that this is not the "loss" we are in. Then you say "This definitely
excludes Satan since he stands condemned to hell and will not follow the
guidance," ignoring the fact that he was given respite "until the Day
they are raised."
But the Shaitan was respited ~ and remained in the heavens from
which man was being excluded, knowing that unless he repented from his
opposition to ALLAH, he would be "cast down" as we had been cast down,
with the heavens closed to him entirely ~ no Guidance, no nothing, just
the outer darkness where ALLAH ta'ala has provided us with Guidance and
Light.
So how does that equate to "original sin," as if we were predisposed
and destined to do wrong, or a "punishment" for what we had not yet done?
> Steve Cleary
was-salaam,
abujamal
--
astaghfirullahal-ladhee laa ilaha illa
howal-hayyul-qayyoom wa 'atoobu 'ilaihi
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
On 12/9/2011 4:34 PM, Steve Cleary wrote:
> Given the above, how can a Muslim claim that original sin is not true,
> if the Qu'ran and Hadith says it is? Anyone around here care to
> answer?
Allah also says "Surely man is in loss, except those who keep faith
and do the good, and counsel with truth and recommend with patience."
He says "Surely there comes to you from Me a guidance," which shows
that this is not the "loss" we are in. Then you say "This definitely
excludes Satan since he stands condemned to hell and will not follow the
guidance," ignoring the fact that he was given respite "until the Day
they are raised."
But the Shaitan was respited ~ and remained in the heavens from
which man was being excluded, knowing that unless he repented from his
opposition to ALLAH, he would be "cast down" as we had been cast down,
with the heavens closed to him entirely ~ no Guidance, no nothing, just
the outer darkness where ALLAH ta'ala has provided us with Guidance and
Light.
So how does that equate to "original sin," as if we were predisposed
and destined to do wrong, or a "punishment" for what we had not yet done?
> Steve Cleary
was-salaam,
abujamal
--
astaghfirullahal-ladhee laa ilaha illa
howal-hayyul-qayyoom wa 'atoobu 'ilaihi
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
Steve Cleary
Dec 11, 2011, 5:17:45 AM12/11/11
to
On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 18:02:14 CST, DKleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com>
wrote:
There is also the issue of whether the Quran and the hadith literature
deny original sin and whether these sources teach that humans are born
pure. Take Surah 2:36-38 for example -
But the Satan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart
from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of
YOU being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an
abode and a provision for a time. Then Adam received from his Lord
words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the
relenting, the Merciful. We said: Go down, ALL OF YOU, from hence; but
verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth
My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they
grieve. S. 2:36-38
The above expressly demonstrates that Adam’s fall had a negative
impact on all future generations of mankind since in Arabic the YOU in
both 2:36 and 38 is plural (referring to more than two), as opposed to
the dual. Surah 2:38 speaks of Allah sending guidance to those who
are expelled. This definitely excludes Satan since he stands condemned
to hell and will not follow the guidance, and proves that the plural
is addressed to all of mankind, e.g. all humanity suffered expulsion
due to their federal head Adam, a point which the Quran reiterates
elsewhere:
Evidently Adam is the type of all mankind, and the sexes go together
in all spiritual matters.
There is a Hadith about the supplication of Musa, "O my Lord! Show me
Adam who caused us and himself to be thrown out of Paradise." When
Musa met Adam, he said to him, "Are you Adam whom Allah created with
His Own Hands, blew life into and commanded the angels to prostrate
before?" (Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Abridged) (Surat Al-Fatihah to Verse 252
of Surat Al-Baqarah)
Maybe someone can explain the following hadith which clearly shows
that Allah actually predestined expulsion from Paradise for Adam and
his seed!
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said
to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father WHO DISAPPOINTED US AND TURNED US
OUT OF PARADISE.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you
with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for
you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action WHICH ALLAH HAD
WRITTEN IN MY FATE forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted
Moses, Adam confuted Moses," the Prophet added, repeating the
Statement three times. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number
611)
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira and Hudhaifa that
the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Allah, the
Blessed and Exalted, would gather people. The believers would stand
till the Paradise would be brought near them. They would come to Adam
and say: O our father, open for us the Paradise. He would say: What
turned you out from the Paradise WAS THE SIN OF YOUR FATHER ADAM. I am
not in a position to do that; ... (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number
0380)
Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu
Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him
peace, said, "Adam and Musa argued and Adam got the better of Musa.
Musa rebuked Adam, 'You are Adam WHO LED PEOPLE ASTRAY and brought
them out of the Garden.' Adam said to him, 'You are Musa to whom Allah
gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His
message.' He said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you then censure me for a
matter WHICH WAS DECREED FOR ME BEFORE I WAS CREATED?'" (Malik's
Muwatta, Book 46, Number 46.1.1)
Given the above, how can a Muslim claim that original sin is not true,
if the Qu'ran and Hadith says it is? Anyone around here care to
answer?
Steve Cleary
wrote:
deny original sin and whether these sources teach that humans are born
pure. Take Surah 2:36-38 for example -
But the Satan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart
from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of
YOU being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an
abode and a provision for a time. Then Adam received from his Lord
words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the
relenting, the Merciful. We said: Go down, ALL OF YOU, from hence; but
verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth
My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they
grieve. S. 2:36-38
The above expressly demonstrates that Adam’s fall had a negative
impact on all future generations of mankind since in Arabic the YOU in
both 2:36 and 38 is plural (referring to more than two), as opposed to
the dual. Surah 2:38 speaks of Allah sending guidance to those who
are expelled. This definitely excludes Satan since he stands condemned
to hell and will not follow the guidance, and proves that the plural
is addressed to all of mankind, e.g. all humanity suffered expulsion
due to their federal head Adam, a point which the Quran reiterates
elsewhere:
Evidently Adam is the type of all mankind, and the sexes go together
in all spiritual matters.
There is a Hadith about the supplication of Musa, "O my Lord! Show me
Adam who caused us and himself to be thrown out of Paradise." When
Musa met Adam, he said to him, "Are you Adam whom Allah created with
His Own Hands, blew life into and commanded the angels to prostrate
before?" (Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Abridged) (Surat Al-Fatihah to Verse 252
of Surat Al-Baqarah)
Maybe someone can explain the following hadith which clearly shows
that Allah actually predestined expulsion from Paradise for Adam and
his seed!
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said
to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father WHO DISAPPOINTED US AND TURNED US
OUT OF PARADISE.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you
with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for
you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action WHICH ALLAH HAD
WRITTEN IN MY FATE forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted
Moses, Adam confuted Moses," the Prophet added, repeating the
Statement three times. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number
611)
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira and Hudhaifa that
the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Allah, the
Blessed and Exalted, would gather people. The believers would stand
till the Paradise would be brought near them. They would come to Adam
and say: O our father, open for us the Paradise. He would say: What
turned you out from the Paradise WAS THE SIN OF YOUR FATHER ADAM. I am
not in a position to do that; ... (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number
0380)
Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu
Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him
peace, said, "Adam and Musa argued and Adam got the better of Musa.
Musa rebuked Adam, 'You are Adam WHO LED PEOPLE ASTRAY and brought
them out of the Garden.' Adam said to him, 'You are Musa to whom Allah
gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His
message.' He said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you then censure me for a
matter WHICH WAS DECREED FOR ME BEFORE I WAS CREATED?'" (Malik's
Muwatta, Book 46, Number 46.1.1)
Given the above, how can a Muslim claim that original sin is not true,
if the Qu'ran and Hadith says it is? Anyone around here care to
answer?
hajj abujamal
Dec 11, 2011, 5:18:12 AM12/11/11
to
Salaam!
On 12/9/2011 4:00 PM, DKleinecke wrote:
> And then there is the perennial question of exactly what "sin" means.
Well, that one's pretty easy: "sin" is whatever I'll never forget
you did, that Jesus already forgave me for doing.
Or alternatively, it's anything I turned completely away from
forever until next time.
Or alternatively, it's what everybody but me does, whether they got
caught at it or not.
I think there are a lot of people who are going to regret saying
"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us,"
when they're being confronted with their own trespasses.
On 12/9/2011 4:00 PM, DKleinecke wrote:
> And then there is the perennial question of exactly what "sin" means.
you did, that Jesus already forgave me for doing.
Or alternatively, it's anything I turned completely away from
forever until next time.
Or alternatively, it's what everybody but me does, whether they got
caught at it or not.
I think there are a lot of people who are going to regret saying
"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us,"
when they're being confronted with their own trespasses.
Steve Cleary
Dec 11, 2011, 5:17:21 AM12/11/11
to
1. Man is unjust and ungrateful.
And He gives you of all that you ask Him; and if you count Allah's
favors, you will not be able to number them; most surely man is very
unjust, very ungrateful. S. 14:53 Shakir
Cursed be man! how ungrateful is he! S. 80:17 Shakir
"Truly man is, to his Lord, ungrateful; And to that (fact) he bears
witness (by his deeds); And violent is he in his love of wealth." S.
100:6-8
2. Man is foolish and fails to do what is commanded.
"We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the
Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof: but
man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish;-" S. 33:72 Shakir
"By no means hath he fulfilled what Allah hath commanded him." S.
80:23 Shakir
3. Man is created impatient.
"Verily, man is created impatient and miserly. When evil touches him,
he is full of lamentations, But when good falls to his lot, he is
niggardly, Except those who pray, Those who are constant in their
Prayer; And those in whose wealth there is a known right–" S. 70:19-24
Sher Ali
"And man prays for evil as he ought to pray for good, and man is ever
hasty." S. 17:11 Shakir
4. Man is created weak.
"Allah doth wish to lighten your (difficulties): For man was created
weak (in flesh)." S. 4:28
5. Man inclines to evil.
"Nor do I absolve my own self (of blame): the (human) soul is
certainly prone to evil, unless my Lord do bestow His Mercy: but
surely my Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." S. 12:53
The Quran explains that the reason why man has a natural tendency for
evil is because Allah breathed wickedness into him!
By a Soul and Him who balanced it, And BREATHED INTO IT ITS WICKEDNESS
and its piety, S. 91:7-8 Rodwell
6. Man is lost.
"Verily Man is in loss, Except such as have Faith, and do righteous
deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of
Patience and Constancy." S. 103:2-3
7. Man thinks he is self-sufficient.
"Day, but man doth transgress all bounds, In that he looketh upon
himself as self-sufficient." S. 96:6-7
8. Sin is universal.
"And if Allah were to seize mankind for their wrong-doing, He would
not leave on it (the earth) a single moving (living) creature, but He
postpones them for an appointed term and when their term comes,
neither can they delay nor can they advance it an hour (or a moment)."
S. 16:61 Hilali-Khan
"If Allah were to punish men according to what they deserve. He would
not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He
gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily
Allah has in His sight all His Servants." S. 35:45
9. Man is incapable of becoming pure in and of himself.
"O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow
the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and
wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not
one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He
pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things)." S. 24:21
If man is born pure then why would anyone need the grace of Allah to
be purified? Aren’t they pure to begin with? If you contend that man
becomes impure later on by disobeying Allah, then what is it about a
man’s nature that causes him to do that which is evil thereby
necessitating his need to be purified by Allah?
10. Man is created in distress.
"Certainly We have created man to be in distress." S. 90:4 Shakir
11. Allah debases unbelievers.
"Certainly We created man in the best make. Then We render him the
lowest of the low. Except those who believe and do good, so they shall
have a reward never to be cut off." S. 95:4-6 Shakir
So where do you get the idea that man is born sinless?
Steve Cleary
DKleinecke
Dec 11, 2011, 7:53:31 PM12/11/11
to
On Dec 11, 2:17=A0am, Steve Cleary <steve.cle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So where do you get the idea that man is born sinless?
I haven't time to do my home work but the Quran makes it clear that
> So where do you get the idea that man is born sinless?
each man is responsible for his own sins and not for the sins of any
other man. And a newly-born child has not yet had time to sin.
I don't know whether such teachings (no man responsible for another's
sins) is directly aimed against Paul's doctrine of an original sin
(the Quran, perhaps everywhere, ignores Paul). From a secular POV it
is obviously an attribute of a just deity.
We really need to find out the mainline Islamic position on this
point.
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