Did God really command Prophet Abraham to sacrifice his son?‏

[Optagon]

Check out the following paper which was just published in the peer-
reviewed journal ( http://scigod.com/ ) which is both thought-
provoking and an eye opener regarding this historical event:


http://scigod.com/index.php/sgj/article/view/141

Prophet Abraham and the Causal Loop: A New Perspective on a Landmark
Historical Event & Its Universal Implications

[DKleinecke]

On Nov 20, 5:02=A0pm, Optagon <opta...@mail.com> wrote:
> Check out the following paper which was just published in the peer-

> reviewed journal (http://scigod.com/) which is both thought-

> provoking and an eye opener regarding this historical event:
>
> http://scigod.com/index.php/sgj/article/view/141
>
> Prophet Abraham and the Causal Loop: A New Perspective on a Landmark
> Historical Event & Its Universal Implications

I had considerable difficulty reading this article both physically and
intellectually. I was unable to finish it because it seems to drift
off into babbling. But here is what I think I saw:

This a piece of conventional tafsir in the same old tired mode.
Whatever scigod.com is trying to do - I can detect no genuine
science.

The Casual Loop, as nearly as I could understand, is that Abraham
dreamed a true dream of the future that was true at the time he
dreamed it. But Allah intervened and changed the future before
Ishmael (!) was sacrificed.

I assume that the author thinks of the idea that the future "already"
is written and we just move through time experiencing it as something
new and scientific. If so he has not done his homework. I assume it
can be found in works of classical antiquity. I know it can be found
in John Scotus Erigena who lived in the third Islamic century and
might well have been influenced by early Muslim philosophers.

If I understood correctly - this is a mistake. The author knows Allah
is outside of time and the book of the future is "already" written.
Hence there cannot be intervention between two events - because if
there were Allah would be a time-bound entity.

But I hope I am wrong and that I missed the point because I did not
soldier on to the very end.

[Optagon]

//The Casual Loop, as nearly as I could understand, is that Abraham

dreamed a true dream of the future that was true at the time he
dreamed it. But Allah intervened and changed the future before

Ishmael (!) was sacrificed.//

No, the future wasn't changed. Allah's intervention was part of the
future however the premonition that Abraham received was only the
'part' right before Allah's intervention.

For an elaboration I do suggest that you go through the entire paper
at least once, however I will try to convey, in a very simplified way,
what the article is pointing: Allah did not command Prophet Abraham to
sacrifice his son, because if Allah did command it (which He did not)
then it would cause a contradiction with the Quranic law that Allah
doesn't command evil such as murder of innocents. The dream was
interpreted as a command by both Abraham and Ismail. The dream was
rather a premonition of a future event -- this premonition acted as
the cause of this event that became evident (i.e. Allah tells Prophet
Abraham that you have 'fulfilled' the premonition (true dream vision).
This is the causal loop.

Even though you may not like the style of how the article's been
presented I do suggest to you to bear to read the entire paper once --
it should be made clear to you.

Peace.

[DKleinecke]

On Nov 21, 9:51=A0pm, Optagon <opta...@mail.com> wrote:
> //The Casual Loop, as nearly as I could understand, is that Abraham
> dreamed a true dream of the future that was true at the time he

> dreamed it. =A0But Allah intervened and changed the future before

> Ishmael (!) was sacrificed.//
>
> No, the future wasn't changed. Allah's intervention was part of the
> future however the premonition that Abraham received was only the
> 'part' right before Allah's intervention.
>
> For an elaboration I do suggest that you go through the entire paper
> at least once, however I will try to convey, in a very simplified way,
> what the article is pointing: Allah did not command Prophet Abraham to
> sacrifice his son, because if Allah did command it (which He did not)
> then it would cause a contradiction with the Quranic law that Allah
> doesn't command evil such as murder of innocents. The dream was
> interpreted as a command by both Abraham and Ismail. The dream was
> rather a premonition of a future event -- this premonition acted as
> the cause of this event that became evident (i.e. Allah tells Prophet
> Abraham that you have 'fulfilled' the premonition (true dream vision).
> This is the causal loop.
>
> Even though you may not like the style of how the article's been
> presented I do suggest to you to bear to read the entire paper once --
> it should be made clear to you.
>
> Peace.

You should be aware that I am an extreme skeptic. I don't think any
of the supposed facts about Abraham in either the Jewish or the
Islamic version are anything more than folklore. But I am interested
in theology. I would deny Allah gave Abraham a false command because
I don't believe Allah gives human beings commands.

Part of my confusion is exactly what you are trying to prove or
disprove. Given the alleged facts (the same in both traditions - which
son is not significant) it would seem that the primary question should
be - why did this event happen (or, translated into skeptical terms,
what does this story tell us). The lesson to be learned is not
obvious. It seems to me that the best reading is that it is a koan -
like so many of the teaching of Jesus in the Christian tradition.
That is, there is no overt meaning in the rational sense - rather it
is a tool to make you think.

In that case it has succeeded with you - you have thought, quite
deeply, about the event.

But I detect some preconceptions that might not be widely shared.
Dreams are not taken now, regardless of earlier thought, to reflect
anything more than the recent life of the dreamer. Thus Abraham's
dream might have been the result of indigestion or the like. I
believe that the idea that dreams must somehow reflect the future
cannot be defended from the Quran (although there are hadiths - I am
uneasy about interpreting the Quran on the basis of hadiths). I could
go on but my point is that there seem to be covert preconceptions
which should be made explicit.

I quite agree that Allah would not command Abraham to sacrifice his
son and the idea that the command, as stated, was given, but Allah
knew it would never be carried out seems unlike the acts of Allah to
me.

Personally I believe the story is edifying folklore (in the koan
sense) or, if it recounts an actual event, the event was intended from
the beginning as a edifying event. The notion that the dream of a
prophet must be true is post-quranic and not to be taken seriously.

[Zev]

On Nov 23 2011, 4:49=A0am, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Nov 21, 9:51=3DA0pm, Optagon <opta...@mail.com> wrote:

> The lesson to be learned is not obvious.

Why not accept it as what it is said to be, a test
(one which most of us would fail)?

The lesson might be that life is a series of such tests,
without dramatic background music,
and that we should *always* follow the laws of our religion,
even if it appears unwise.