Killing the apostate is NOT mentioned in the Koran
Amro
Koran 2:217, 2:256, 4:137, 5:54 & 10:99
DKleinecke
> Killing the apostate is NOT mentioned in the Koran and it contradicts
> Koran 2:217, 2:256, 4:137, 5:54 & 10:99
Neither is stoning adulterers.
But both of these punishments have been part of the Shari'ah since out
earliest records.
This is why it is a mistake to say that Islamic Law is based on the
Qur'an.
I believe Muslims should be aware that Islam and the Shari'ah are two
different things and can be discussed separately.
For example, maintaining that cutting off the hands of thieves is
immoral is an attack on (classical) Shari'ah and is not an attack on
Islam. Why the Qur'an appears to say that the hand of thieves should
be cut off is a theological question and is not a question of law.
drahcir
> Killing the apostate is NOT mentioned in the Koran and it contradicts
> Koran 2:217, 2:256, 4:137, 5:54 & 10:99
Are the hadith not important in Islam?
Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim)
discards his religion, kill him.' "
Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one
of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody
unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed
illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and
His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."
Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed
his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism
is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."
Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh
asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became
a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested
Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has
been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such
cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be
killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the
night prayers'"
Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there
will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but
their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no
faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes
out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever
kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"
Amro
mail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 24, 6:09=3DA0am, Amro <Amro_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Killing the apostate is NOT mentioned in the Koran and it contradicts
> > Koran 2:217, 2:256, 4:137, 5:54 & 10:99
>
> Neither is stoning adulterers.
>
> But both of these punishments have been part of the Shari'ah since out
> earliest records.
>
> This is why it is a mistake to say that Islamic Law is based on the
> Qur'an.
Islam is the act of submitting yourself to God
Koran 3:20, 31:22, 2:112, 4:125 while doing
good deeds, which we learn from the Koran.
So how can you or anyone impose on Islam
what contradicts the Koran? The Koran defines
Islam and is the reason we are muslims in the
first place
Amro
..@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 24, 9:09=3DA0am, Amro <Amro_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Killing the apostate is NOT mentioned in the Koran and it contradicts
> > Koran 2:217, 2:256, 4:137, 5:54 & 10:99
>
> Are the hadith not important in Islam?
What is Islam? Islam means submitting your
self to God as mentioned in Koran 2:211, 13:22, 3:20
& 4:125
If Hadith or Bukhari contradicts with the Koran
then that means that the Hadith you mentioned is wrong
and you have to decide which to follow. I decided
to follow the Koran and for that I don't mind being
called a Koranite as opposed of being a
Hadithite, mainley to distance my self from
all the Hadith that you mentioned. If you say hadith
abrogates the Koran then you have your religion
and I have mine. It is that serious!
>
> Bukhari (52:260), Bukhari (83:37) -."
> Bukhari (89:271) -Bukhari (84:57) -
> Bukhari (84:58) Bukhari (84:64-65- >
DKleinecke
>
> > > Killing the apostate is NOT mentioned in the Koran and it contradicts
> > > Koran 2:217, 2:256, 4:137, 5:54 & 10:99
>
> then that means that the Hadith you mentioned is wrong
> and you have to decide which to follow.
The section on killing apostates in the Muwatta of Malik ibn Anas
( aavailable on line ) is interesting in the respect. Malik has very
poor support for the idea. He has one story about two early Muslims
and one prophetic hadith. The isnad he has for the hadith is
completely inadequate by any test ever devised and it says "If a man
changes his religion strike off his head." Malik then spends a lot of
words explaining that the hadith only applies to converts from islam -
not to converts to Islam. Finally he punts and, without any
justification, declares for the usual position.
At least Malik had the decency to be embarassed by the question even
if he could not bring himself to disagree with traditional law.
drahcir
> On 19 =3DD8=3DAF=3DD9=3D8A=3DD8=3DB3=3DD9=3D85=3DD8=3DA8=3DD8=3DB1, 00:10=
, drahcir <justrichardsmu.=3D
>
> =A0....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 24, 9:09=3D3DA0am, Amro <Amro_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Killing the apostate is NOT mentioned in the Koran and it contradicts
> > > Koran 2:217, 2:256, 4:137, 5:54 & 10:99
>
> > Are the hadith not important in Islam?
>
> What is Islam?
Islam is the religion practiced by Muslims. For most Muslims, the
hadith are very important, therefore the hadith are important in
Islam.
Islam means submitting your
> self to God as mentioned in Koran 2:211, 13:22, 3:20
> =A0& 4:125
>
> If Hadith or Bukhari contradicts with the Koran
> then that means that the Hadith you mentioned is wrong
> and you have to decide which to follow.
They do not contradict the Koran. Nowhere is killing the apostate
expressly forbidden in the Koran. There are certainly Koran verses
that suggest killing the apostate, especially 4.89:
They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so
that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them
friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn
back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take
not from among them a friend or a helper.
Ambiguity prevents me from stating clearly the meaning of "fly in
Allah's way". The verb "fly" is in every translation I have read. If
"fly" means "go", then this verse is clearly instructing the killing
of apostates. In context, the case becomes clearer, but still not
definite:
4.88 What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two
parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to
unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom
Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall
by no means find a way for him.
"return to unbelief" certainly is apostasy. The answer, to me, is
really not so very important. The important question is, would an all-
knowing, all-seeing, good God leave ambiguous an act so grave as
seizing and killing people wherever found?
> I decided
> to follow the Koran and for that I don't mind being
> called a Koranite as opposed of being a
> Hadithite, mainley to distance my self from
> all the Hadith that you mentioned. If you say hadith
> abrogates the Koran then you have your religion
> and I have mine. It is that serious!
>
I don't say the Hadith abrogate the Koran. I say Islam is the religion
of Muslims - that means Islam is whatever Muslims say it is. If they
ascribe weight to the Hadith, then that is Islam. It's very nice that
you have decided that the Hadith are worthless, but it is also quite
meaningless.
>
> > Bukhari (52:260), Bukhari (83:37) -."
> > Bukhari (89:271) -Bukhari (84:57) -
> > Bukhari (84:58) =A0Bukhari (84:64-65- >