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Islam and Spirituality
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whisp...@gmail.com
Apr 22, 2013, 7:24:14 PM4/22/13
to
I have seen much emphasis on ritualism in Islam, like 5 daily prayers, mont=
h of fasting, the Haj and Zakat, and what they call Shahadah.
I have not seen much talk about Spiritualism in Islam, except some in the c=
ontext of Sufism.=20
I would like to know what Muslims think about spirituality in Islam. Do the=
y think that the five pillars of Islam are also the Spirituality of Islam? =
Or do they think that the Spirituality in Islam is separate entity from the=
five pillars. If it is held that the five pillars are useful practices tow=
ards spirituality, then please explain how and why; and explain if there ar=
e alternative means to spirituality other than the five pillars?
Currently I am doing some research on Spirituality, and that is the reason =
behind this post.
h of fasting, the Haj and Zakat, and what they call Shahadah.
I have not seen much talk about Spiritualism in Islam, except some in the c=
ontext of Sufism.=20
I would like to know what Muslims think about spirituality in Islam. Do the=
y think that the five pillars of Islam are also the Spirituality of Islam? =
Or do they think that the Spirituality in Islam is separate entity from the=
five pillars. If it is held that the five pillars are useful practices tow=
ards spirituality, then please explain how and why; and explain if there ar=
e alternative means to spirituality other than the five pillars?
Currently I am doing some research on Spirituality, and that is the reason =
behind this post.
Fariduddien
Apr 23, 2013, 6:24:08 PM4/23/13
to
On Apr 23, 8:30=A0am, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have seen much emphasis on ritualism in Islam, like 5 daily prayers, mo=
nt=3D
c=3D
> ontext of Sufism.=3D20
> I would like to know what Muslims think about spirituality in Islam. Do t=
he=3D
> y think that the five pillars of Islam are also the Spirituality of Islam=
? =3D
> Or do they think that the Spirituality in Islam is separate entity from t=
he=3D
> =A0five pillars. If it is held that the five pillars are useful practices=
tow=3D
> ards spirituality, then please explain how and why; and explain if there =
ar=3D
n =3D
> behind this post.
Classically, to my understanding, Tasawwuf or "Sufism" is considered
to be the Islamic branch of knowledge regarding perfecting your
sincerity (Ikhlas).
When we think of Tasawwuf or Sufism nowadays, we tend to think of the
formalized Sufi tariqas, or Sufi orders. However, in the past people
considered themselves as following a Sufi path without necessarily
formally following a Sufi order. Abu Hamid al-Ghazali may have been
one of these. Another might be Imam Nawawi.
In the modern era, there are those who also are considered by some to
be following a Sufi-type of path, without necessarily formally joining
a Sufi tariqa. I have read Bediuzzaman Said Nursi and also Fethullah
Gulen mentioned in this context.
Maybe you could define what you mean by "spirituality" in your
question more precisely?
> I have seen much emphasis on ritualism in Islam, like 5 daily prayers, mo=
nt=3D
> h of fasting, the Haj and Zakat, and what they call Shahadah.
> I have not seen much talk about Spiritualism in Islam, except some in the=
c=3D
> ontext of Sufism.=3D20
> I would like to know what Muslims think about spirituality in Islam. Do t=
he=3D
> y think that the five pillars of Islam are also the Spirituality of Islam=
? =3D
> Or do they think that the Spirituality in Islam is separate entity from t=
he=3D
> =A0five pillars. If it is held that the five pillars are useful practices=
tow=3D
> ards spirituality, then please explain how and why; and explain if there =
ar=3D
> e alternative means to spirituality other than the five pillars?
> Currently I am doing some research on Spirituality, and that is the reaso=
n =3D
> behind this post.
Classically, to my understanding, Tasawwuf or "Sufism" is considered
to be the Islamic branch of knowledge regarding perfecting your
sincerity (Ikhlas).
When we think of Tasawwuf or Sufism nowadays, we tend to think of the
formalized Sufi tariqas, or Sufi orders. However, in the past people
considered themselves as following a Sufi path without necessarily
formally following a Sufi order. Abu Hamid al-Ghazali may have been
one of these. Another might be Imam Nawawi.
In the modern era, there are those who also are considered by some to
be following a Sufi-type of path, without necessarily formally joining
a Sufi tariqa. I have read Bediuzzaman Said Nursi and also Fethullah
Gulen mentioned in this context.
Maybe you could define what you mean by "spirituality" in your
question more precisely?
Fariduddien
Apr 23, 2013, 7:05:44 PM4/23/13
to
On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 7:30:03 AM UTC+10, Fariduddien wrote:
> When we think of Tasawwuf or Sufism nowadays, we tend to think of the
> formalized Sufi tariqas, or Sufi orders. However, in the past people
> considered themselves as following a Sufi path without necessarily
> formally following a Sufi order. Abu Hamid al-Ghazali may have been
> one of these. Another might be Imam Nawawi.
After doing a little bit of research, I think I was probably wrong
> When we think of Tasawwuf or Sufism nowadays, we tend to think of the
> formalized Sufi tariqas, or Sufi orders. However, in the past people
> considered themselves as following a Sufi path without necessarily
> formally following a Sufi order. Abu Hamid al-Ghazali may have been
> one of these. Another might be Imam Nawawi.
here regarding Imam al-Ghazali.
I read that, according to G. F. Haddad...
"Among his [i.e. Al-Ghazali's] shaykhs in tasawwuf were al-Fadl ibn
Muhammad ibn =91Ali al-Farmadi al-Tusi =96 one of Abu al-Qasim al-
Qushayri=92s students =96 and Yusuf al-Sajjaj."
From
http://www.sunnah.org/history/Scholars/imam_alghazali.htm
I think it is right about Imam Nawawi, though.
More information from Nuh Keller in this audio on YouTube...
Was Imam Nawawi a Sufi or in a Tariqa? - Nuh Keller
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dwphj0qb9isk
Fariduddien
Apr 23, 2013, 7:20:44 PM4/23/13
to
On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:10:02 AM UTC+10, Fariduddien wrote:
> Was Imam Nawawi a Sufi or in a Tariqa? - Nuh Keller
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dwphj0qb9isk
The link got corrupted. Here is a shortened link which will hopefully work.
> Was Imam Nawawi a Sufi or in a Tariqa? - Nuh Keller
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dwphj0qb9isk
http://bit.ly/ZjmbSO
whisp...@gmail.com
Apr 25, 2013, 2:05:08 PM4/25/13
to
Fariduddin Rice Commented:
Maybe you could define what you mean by "spirituality" in your question mor=
e precisely?
My Answer:
Actually what is meant by spirituality itself is part of my research on spi=
rituality. If spirituality is important in Islam, then it defines what is s=
pirituality. Whatever definition Islam (or some other forum) assigns to spi=
rituality, I want to know that definition, and what details are directly co=
vered under that definition. For example what spirituality is, why it is im=
portant, how it is attained, etc.
Maybe you could define what you mean by "spirituality" in your question mor=
e precisely?
My Answer:
Actually what is meant by spirituality itself is part of my research on spi=
rituality. If spirituality is important in Islam, then it defines what is s=
pirituality. Whatever definition Islam (or some other forum) assigns to spi=
rituality, I want to know that definition, and what details are directly co=
vered under that definition. For example what spirituality is, why it is im=
portant, how it is attained, etc.
sam...@hotmail.com
Apr 25, 2013, 10:18:01 PM4/25/13
to
10. The Human Paradox
11. Art , Environment and Mysticism
12. Other Dimensions
might provide insights to your question
Wassalam ...
yasme...@gmail.com
Apr 28, 2013, 10:12:34 PM4/28/13
to
I guess I will have to do without that book, or another from Islamic source. Sufiism does seem to discuss some spirituality, but that is mostly at individual level with no discussion of spirituality in the context of community.
I have some ideas of my own which I can pursue. Just thought if I could get some notions from Islam. The answer seems no, at this stage.
DKleinecke
Apr 29, 2013, 8:37:55 PM4/29/13
to
On Apr 25, 10:10=A0am, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
> Actually what is meant by spirituality itself is part of my research on s=
pi=3D
> rituality. If spirituality is important in Islam, then it defines what is=
s=3D
> pirituality. Whatever definition Islam (or some other forum) assigns to s=
pi=3D
> rituality, I want to know that definition, and what details are directly =
co=3D
> vered under that definition. For example what spirituality is, why it is =
im=3D
know what you are looking for. I fear your attempt to tell us what
you are seeking is not helped by this paragraph.
It seems to me that what is called "spirituality" in other traditions
is the part played by some of the Sufi's in Islam. Sufi covers a lot
of things some of which I would not call "spirituality". But probably
the test case is Rumi. If you do not find Rumi addressed toward where
you want to go then I think Islam cannot help you. If, on the other
hand, Rumi appeals to you, he can open up a vast treasure house of
Sufi literature to you. If you need information on Rumi just google
"Rumi" and there are plenty of references.
> Actually what is meant by spirituality itself is part of my research on s=
pi=3D
> rituality. If spirituality is important in Islam, then it defines what is=
s=3D
> pirituality. Whatever definition Islam (or some other forum) assigns to s=
pi=3D
> rituality, I want to know that definition, and what details are directly =
co=3D
> vered under that definition. For example what spirituality is, why it is =
im=3D
> portant, how it is attained, etc.
It is hard to help you in your quest for spirituality when we don't
know what you are looking for. I fear your attempt to tell us what
you are seeking is not helped by this paragraph.
It seems to me that what is called "spirituality" in other traditions
is the part played by some of the Sufi's in Islam. Sufi covers a lot
of things some of which I would not call "spirituality". But probably
the test case is Rumi. If you do not find Rumi addressed toward where
you want to go then I think Islam cannot help you. If, on the other
hand, Rumi appeals to you, he can open up a vast treasure house of
Sufi literature to you. If you need information on Rumi just google
"Rumi" and there are plenty of references.
whisp...@gmail.com
May 3, 2013, 12:55:51 PM5/3/13
to
On Monday, April 29, 2013 7:40:01 PM UTC-4, DKleinecke wrote:
> On Apr 25, 10:10=3DA0am, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > Actually what is meant by spirituality itself is part of my research on=
s=3D
>=20
> pi=3D3D
>=20
> > rituality. If spirituality is important in Islam, then it defines what =
is=3D
>=20
> s=3D3D
>=20
> > pirituality. Whatever definition Islam (or some other forum) assigns to=
s=3D
>=20
> pi=3D3D
>=20
> > rituality, I want to know that definition, and what details are directl=
y =3D
>=20
> co=3D3D
>=20
> > vered under that definition. For example what spirituality is, why it i=
s =3D
>=20
> im=3D3D
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
ject of "spirituality" as such. The Iranian people call Rumi's Mathnavi Hal=
f Quran. Rumi describes stories that illustrate Quran according to him. So =
if spirituality is not in Quran, it is not in Rumi. Other writings of Rumi =
are mostly Love Ghazals, which are mostly what Rumi stands for in the West.
In fact it is fashionable to throw the name of Rumi. If you have actually s=
een Spirituality discussed by Rumi, point me to it, please.=20
Only spirituality I have seen mentioned is in Sufiism. But the Maulvi sufii=
sm is somewhat different, and not so widely practiced. To see how Maulvi su=
fiism is different, try comparing the Masthani with the Kashaful Mahjoob fo=
r example.=20
You could say there are some hints, not any discussion, on spirituality in =
Hadith Qudsi. But that seems a matter of interpretation. The way those Hadi=
th are generally interpreted, it has no spirituality in them.=20
The whole of Islamic practice seems to be not towards spirituality, but tow=
ards something else.
> On Apr 25, 10:10=3DA0am, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > Actually what is meant by spirituality itself is part of my research on=
s=3D
>=20
> pi=3D3D
>=20
> > rituality. If spirituality is important in Islam, then it defines what =
is=3D
>=20
> s=3D3D
>=20
> > pirituality. Whatever definition Islam (or some other forum) assigns to=
s=3D
>=20
> pi=3D3D
>=20
> > rituality, I want to know that definition, and what details are directl=
y =3D
>=20
> co=3D3D
>=20
> > vered under that definition. For example what spirituality is, why it i=
s =3D
>=20
> im=3D3D
>=20
> > portant, how it is attained, etc.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> It is hard to help you in your quest for spirituality when we don't
>=20
> know what you are looking for. I fear your attempt to tell us what
>=20
> you are seeking is not helped by this paragraph.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> It seems to me that what is called "spirituality" in other traditions
>=20
> is the part played by some of the Sufi's in Islam. Sufi covers a lot
>=20
> of things some of which I would not call "spirituality". But probably
>=20
> the test case is Rumi. If you do not find Rumi addressed toward where
>=20
> you want to go then I think Islam cannot help you. If, on the other
>=20
> hand, Rumi appeals to you, he can open up a vast treasure house of
>=20
> Sufi literature to you. If you need information on Rumi just google
>=20
> "Rumi" and there are plenty of references.
I am somewhat familiar with Rumi. I do not think Rumi has discussed the sub=
ject of "spirituality" as such. The Iranian people call Rumi's Mathnavi Hal=
f Quran. Rumi describes stories that illustrate Quran according to him. So =
if spirituality is not in Quran, it is not in Rumi. Other writings of Rumi =
are mostly Love Ghazals, which are mostly what Rumi stands for in the West.
In fact it is fashionable to throw the name of Rumi. If you have actually s=
een Spirituality discussed by Rumi, point me to it, please.=20
Only spirituality I have seen mentioned is in Sufiism. But the Maulvi sufii=
sm is somewhat different, and not so widely practiced. To see how Maulvi su=
fiism is different, try comparing the Masthani with the Kashaful Mahjoob fo=
r example.=20
You could say there are some hints, not any discussion, on spirituality in =
Hadith Qudsi. But that seems a matter of interpretation. The way those Hadi=
th are generally interpreted, it has no spirituality in them.=20
The whole of Islamic practice seems to be not towards spirituality, but tow=
ards something else.
Fariduddien
May 3, 2013, 1:47:33 PM5/3/13
to
Assalamu alaikum,
The word "spiritualism" has many diverse meanings - which is why it is
important to define what you are talking about. I wonder if the
different people posting on this here are talking about completely
different meanings.
When I think of the word, I tend to mean "spiritual experience." Does
this exist in Islam? The answer is yes.
"Truly it is in the remembrance of God that hearts find peace." (part
of Qur'an 13:28, Abdel Haleem translation)
Remember, reading works of Sufis is not the same thing as following a
Sufi path. At best, these are describing such experiences, but they
may not lead to these experiences themselves.
It is analogous to reading about or seeing a picture of a mango. If
you've never eaten a mango, you still have no idea of what a mango
really tastes like, no matter how much you read about mangos or how
many pictures of mangos you look at. You never really understand the
taste of a mango until you actually bite into a real mango itself.
The word "spiritualism" has many diverse meanings - which is why it is
important to define what you are talking about. I wonder if the
different people posting on this here are talking about completely
different meanings.
When I think of the word, I tend to mean "spiritual experience." Does
this exist in Islam? The answer is yes.
"Truly it is in the remembrance of God that hearts find peace." (part
of Qur'an 13:28, Abdel Haleem translation)
Remember, reading works of Sufis is not the same thing as following a
Sufi path. At best, these are describing such experiences, but they
may not lead to these experiences themselves.
It is analogous to reading about or seeing a picture of a mango. If
you've never eaten a mango, you still have no idea of what a mango
really tastes like, no matter how much you read about mangos or how
many pictures of mangos you look at. You never really understand the
taste of a mango until you actually bite into a real mango itself.
whisp...@gmail.com
May 4, 2013, 8:42:27 AM5/4/13
to
On Friday, May 3, 2013 12:50:02 PM UTC-4, Fariduddien wrote:
> Assalamu alaikum,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> different meanings.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
at is because spirituality does not mean anything specific, its meaning is =
left to the whims of the people. And that is because no religion defines sp=
irituality in any specific way. Even philosophy does not define spiritualit=
y.
Is it not strange that a concept so frequently talked about, is left comple=
tely undefined? Is it not ironic that religions and philosophers leave this=
fundamental thing in life completely undefined?
Sporadic statements like Zikr produces peace do not constitute spirituality=
. It is like saying dancing makes you feel good. But does the statement con=
stitute spirituality?
And it is basic that reading about something is different from actually doi=
ng it. There is no need to elaborate at length an obvious point.
> Assalamu alaikum,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The word "spiritualism" has many diverse meanings - which is why it is
>=20
> important to define what you are talking about. I wonder if the
>=20
> different people posting on this here are talking about completely
>=20
> different meanings.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> When I think of the word, I tend to mean "spiritual experience." Does
>=20
> this exist in Islam? The answer is yes.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> "Truly it is in the remembrance of God that hearts find peace." (part
>=20
> of Qur'an 13:28, Abdel Haleem translation)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Remember, reading works of Sufis is not the same thing as following a
>=20
> Sufi path. At best, these are describing such experiences, but they
>=20
> may not lead to these experiences themselves.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> It is analogous to reading about or seeing a picture of a mango. If
>=20
> you've never eaten a mango, you still have no idea of what a mango
>=20
> really tastes like, no matter how much you read about mangos or how
>=20
> many pictures of mangos you look at. You never really understand the
>=20
> taste of a mango until you actually bite into a real mango itself.
It is true that spirituality means different things to different people. Th=
at is because spirituality does not mean anything specific, its meaning is =
left to the whims of the people. And that is because no religion defines sp=
irituality in any specific way. Even philosophy does not define spiritualit=
y.
Is it not strange that a concept so frequently talked about, is left comple=
tely undefined? Is it not ironic that religions and philosophers leave this=
fundamental thing in life completely undefined?
Sporadic statements like Zikr produces peace do not constitute spirituality=
. It is like saying dancing makes you feel good. But does the statement con=
stitute spirituality?
And it is basic that reading about something is different from actually doi=
ng it. There is no need to elaborate at length an obvious point.
Fariduddien
May 4, 2013, 12:01:18 PM5/4/13
to
On May 4, 9:50=A0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
> It is true that spirituality means different things to different people. =
Th=3D
> at is because spirituality does not mean anything specific, its meaning i=
s =3D
> left to the whims of the people. And that is because no religion defines =
sp=3D
> irituality in any specific way. Even philosophy does not define spiritual=
it=3D
> y.
> Is it not strange that a concept so frequently talked about, is left comp=
le=3D
> tely undefined? Is it not ironic that religions and philosophers leave th=
is=3D
> =A0fundamental thing in life completely undefined?
Keep in mind that "spirituality" is an English word, with Latin roots
(as I found out from looking it up). The primary Islamic sources are
all in Arabic, so perhaps it is not so surprising that you cannot find
the definition of an English/Latin word in Islamic primary sources.
Is there an Arabic word which is the equivalent of what you are asking
about?
> Sporadic statements like Zikr produces peace do not constitute spirituali=
ty=3D
> =A0. It is like saying dancing makes you feel good. But does the statemen=
t con=3D
> stitute spirituality?
Without a definition of what you mean by "spirituality," I don't even
really know what you are asking... If you look up "spirituality" in a
dictionary (online or offline), you'll see the definition is very
broad.
For example, the online Merriam-Webster dictionary provides the
following definitions.
Definition of SPIRITUALITY
1: something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a
cleric as such
2: clergy
3: sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4: the quality or state of being spiritual
Definition of SPIRITUAL
1: of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit :
incorporeal <spiritual needs>
2
a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs>
b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority>
<lords spiritual>
3: concerned with religious values
4: related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual
heir>
5
a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena
b : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism : spiritualistic
According to some of these definitions, anything "concerned with
religious values" or "relating to sacred matters" is by definition
"spiritual."
According to these definitions, since all of Islam is "concerned with
religious values" or "related to sacred matters," all of Islam is
therefore, by definition, "spiritual."
(This statement would also hold, by definition, for any other
religion, since all religions are presumably "concerned with religious
values.")
> It is true that spirituality means different things to different people. =
Th=3D
> at is because spirituality does not mean anything specific, its meaning i=
s =3D
> left to the whims of the people. And that is because no religion defines =
sp=3D
> irituality in any specific way. Even philosophy does not define spiritual=
it=3D
> y.
> Is it not strange that a concept so frequently talked about, is left comp=
le=3D
> tely undefined? Is it not ironic that religions and philosophers leave th=
is=3D
> =A0fundamental thing in life completely undefined?
Keep in mind that "spirituality" is an English word, with Latin roots
(as I found out from looking it up). The primary Islamic sources are
all in Arabic, so perhaps it is not so surprising that you cannot find
the definition of an English/Latin word in Islamic primary sources.
Is there an Arabic word which is the equivalent of what you are asking
about?
> Sporadic statements like Zikr produces peace do not constitute spirituali=
ty=3D
> =A0. It is like saying dancing makes you feel good. But does the statemen=
t con=3D
> stitute spirituality?
Without a definition of what you mean by "spirituality," I don't even
really know what you are asking... If you look up "spirituality" in a
dictionary (online or offline), you'll see the definition is very
broad.
For example, the online Merriam-Webster dictionary provides the
following definitions.
Definition of SPIRITUALITY
1: something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a
cleric as such
2: clergy
3: sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4: the quality or state of being spiritual
Definition of SPIRITUAL
1: of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit :
incorporeal <spiritual needs>
2
a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs>
b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority>
<lords spiritual>
3: concerned with religious values
4: related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual
heir>
5
a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena
b : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism : spiritualistic
According to some of these definitions, anything "concerned with
religious values" or "relating to sacred matters" is by definition
"spiritual."
According to these definitions, since all of Islam is "concerned with
religious values" or "related to sacred matters," all of Islam is
therefore, by definition, "spiritual."
(This statement would also hold, by definition, for any other
religion, since all religions are presumably "concerned with religious
values.")
DKleinecke
May 4, 2013, 8:01:45 PM5/4/13
to
On May 4, 8:10=A0am, Fariduddien <faridudd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 4, 9:50=3DA0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > It is true that spirituality means different things to different people=
. =3D
> Th=3D3D
> > at is because spirituality does not mean anything specific, its meaning=
i=3D
> s =3D3D
> > left to the whims of the people. And that is because no religion define=
s =3D
> sp=3D3D
> > irituality in any specific way. Even philosophy does not define spiritu=
al=3D
> it=3D3D
> > y.
> > Is it not strange that a concept so frequently talked about, is left co=
mp=3D
> le=3D3D
> > tely undefined? Is it not ironic that religions and philosophers leave =
th=3D
> is=3D3D
> > =3DA0fundamental thing in life completely undefined?
li=3D
> ty=3D3D
> > =3DA0. It is like saying dancing makes you feel good. But does the stat=
emen=3D
> t con=3D3D
In fact the chief objection to this or that form of a religion has
always been that they have stopped being concerned with religious
values and are following some other goal.
> On May 4, 9:50=3DA0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > It is true that spirituality means different things to different people=
. =3D
> Th=3D3D
> > at is because spirituality does not mean anything specific, its meaning=
i=3D
> s =3D3D
> > left to the whims of the people. And that is because no religion define=
s =3D
> sp=3D3D
> > irituality in any specific way. Even philosophy does not define spiritu=
al=3D
> it=3D3D
> > y.
> > Is it not strange that a concept so frequently talked about, is left co=
mp=3D
> le=3D3D
> > tely undefined? Is it not ironic that religions and philosophers leave =
th=3D
> is=3D3D
> > =3DA0fundamental thing in life completely undefined?
>
> Keep in mind that "spirituality" is an English word, with Latin roots
> (as I found out from looking it up). The primary Islamic sources are
> all in Arabic, so perhaps it is not so surprising that you cannot find
> the definition of an English/Latin word in Islamic primary sources.
>
> Is there an Arabic word which is the equivalent of what you are asking
> about?
>
>
>
> > Sporadic statements like Zikr produces peace do not constitute spiritua=
> Keep in mind that "spirituality" is an English word, with Latin roots
> (as I found out from looking it up). The primary Islamic sources are
> all in Arabic, so perhaps it is not so surprising that you cannot find
> the definition of an English/Latin word in Islamic primary sources.
>
> Is there an Arabic word which is the equivalent of what you are asking
> about?
>
>
>
li=3D
> ty=3D3D
> > =3DA0. It is like saying dancing makes you feel good. But does the stat=
emen=3D
> t con=3D3D
always been that they have stopped being concerned with religious
values and are following some other goal.
Yusuf B Gursey
May 5, 2013, 3:18:39 AM5/5/13
to
On Apr 22, 6:30=A0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have seen much emphasis on ritualism in Islam, like 5 daily prayers, mo=
nt=3D
he=3D
> y think that the five pillars of Islam are also the Spirituality of Islam=
? =3D
> Or do they think that the Spirituality in Islam is separate entity from t=
he=3D
> =A0five pillars. If it is held that the five pillars are useful practices=
tow=3D
> ards spirituality, then please explain how and why; and explain if there =
ar=3D
rather the material and prescriptive.
there is a current of Islamic thought that looks down upon
prescriptive ritual, saying that these are merely cruches for the
unitiate, true believers, they maintain, have no need of what they
describe as petty prohibitions or rituals, like fasting, the
pilgrimage, prohibition on alcohol or wine, some even going as far as
to include daily prayers or going to mosques. this is no modern
inovation, but has been active since medieval times. it can be
discerned particularly in the works of poets. I might mention a very
recent incident of a Turkish musician who was prosecuted for Tweeting
a verse from Omar Khayyam that alledgedly disparaged, the pilgrimage
(IIRC or some other "pillar"). the charge, BTW in alledgedly secular
Turkey, was "offending the religious sensibilities of a portion of the
population" (he was given a 10 month suspended sentence). well, one
wonders how Omar Khayyam was tolerated and rose to high office (under
a Turkish dynasty BTW) in medieval times is not tolerated in modern
Turkey. while now and then labeled as heretics they survived because
they had a populist appeal and they provided a framework which
encouraged.conversions from other religions.
Sufis have been divided as bi:-Shar`i: (< be:-Shar`i:) "without
Shariah" in Persian, and ba:-Shar`i: "with Shar`iah in Persian.
the Shahadah OTOH is a terse and undisputed (among Muslims) statement
of the Oneness of God. "spiritual" Muslims have claimed to uphold its
principles and sufficiency even more. well, every Muslim school of
thought has claimed for itself the best understanding of it.
I haven't read Rumi myself but I have read and heard that while
maintining the primacy of the importance of the love of God, he did
consider adherence to Sharia and ritual a manifestation of that love.
apparently his followers are divided (I also discern from self
proclaimed Mevlevis (Turkish pronounciation of the followers of
Mawlawiyya / Mevlevi darwish / Sufi order that consider Rumi their
founder). the bi-Shar`i wing (non Sharia following) known as the Shams
tradition (from Shams-i Tabrizi / Shams of Tabriz, the name of Rumi's
mentor, who was, his name indicates from Tabriz) and the Sultan Veled
(Arabic: Walad) tradition, the name of Rumi's son who organized Rumi's
following after Rumi's death, which is ba:-Shar`i ("with Sharia"). it
is the latter that has enjoyed official support and recognition under
the Ottoman Empire
> I have seen much emphasis on ritualism in Islam, like 5 daily prayers, mo=
nt=3D
> h of fasting, the Haj and Zakat, and what they call Shahadah.
> I have not seen much talk about Spiritualism in Islam, except some in the=
c=3D
> ontext of Sufism.=3D20
> I would like to know what Muslims think about spirituality in Islam. Do t=
c=3D
> ontext of Sufism.=3D20
he=3D
> y think that the five pillars of Islam are also the Spirituality of Islam=
? =3D
> Or do they think that the Spirituality in Islam is separate entity from t=
he=3D
> =A0five pillars. If it is held that the five pillars are useful practices=
tow=3D
> ards spirituality, then please explain how and why; and explain if there =
ar=3D
> e alternative means to spirituality other than the five pillars?
> Currently I am doing some research on Spirituality, and that is the reaso=
n =3D
> behind this post.
I understand from "spirituality" a leaning towards the otherwordly
n =3D
> behind this post.
rather the material and prescriptive.
there is a current of Islamic thought that looks down upon
prescriptive ritual, saying that these are merely cruches for the
unitiate, true believers, they maintain, have no need of what they
describe as petty prohibitions or rituals, like fasting, the
pilgrimage, prohibition on alcohol or wine, some even going as far as
to include daily prayers or going to mosques. this is no modern
inovation, but has been active since medieval times. it can be
discerned particularly in the works of poets. I might mention a very
recent incident of a Turkish musician who was prosecuted for Tweeting
a verse from Omar Khayyam that alledgedly disparaged, the pilgrimage
(IIRC or some other "pillar"). the charge, BTW in alledgedly secular
Turkey, was "offending the religious sensibilities of a portion of the
population" (he was given a 10 month suspended sentence). well, one
wonders how Omar Khayyam was tolerated and rose to high office (under
a Turkish dynasty BTW) in medieval times is not tolerated in modern
Turkey. while now and then labeled as heretics they survived because
they had a populist appeal and they provided a framework which
encouraged.conversions from other religions.
Sufis have been divided as bi:-Shar`i: (< be:-Shar`i:) "without
Shariah" in Persian, and ba:-Shar`i: "with Shar`iah in Persian.
the Shahadah OTOH is a terse and undisputed (among Muslims) statement
of the Oneness of God. "spiritual" Muslims have claimed to uphold its
principles and sufficiency even more. well, every Muslim school of
thought has claimed for itself the best understanding of it.
I haven't read Rumi myself but I have read and heard that while
maintining the primacy of the importance of the love of God, he did
consider adherence to Sharia and ritual a manifestation of that love.
apparently his followers are divided (I also discern from self
proclaimed Mevlevis (Turkish pronounciation of the followers of
Mawlawiyya / Mevlevi darwish / Sufi order that consider Rumi their
founder). the bi-Shar`i wing (non Sharia following) known as the Shams
tradition (from Shams-i Tabrizi / Shams of Tabriz, the name of Rumi's
mentor, who was, his name indicates from Tabriz) and the Sultan Veled
(Arabic: Walad) tradition, the name of Rumi's son who organized Rumi's
following after Rumi's death, which is ba:-Shar`i ("with Sharia"). it
is the latter that has enjoyed official support and recognition under
the Ottoman Empire
Yusuf B Gursey
May 5, 2013, 3:46:58 AM5/5/13
to
On Apr 23, 5:30=A0pm, Fariduddien <faridudd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 23, 8:30=3DA0am, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have seen much emphasis on ritualism in Islam, like 5 daily prayers, =
mo=3D
> nt=3D3D
he=3D
> =A0c=3D3D
> > ontext of Sufism.=3D3D20
> > I would like to know what Muslims think about spirituality in Islam. Do=
t=3D
> he=3D3D
> > y think that the five pillars of Islam are also the Spirituality of Isl=
am=3D
> ? =3D3D
> > Or do they think that the Spirituality in Islam is separate entity from=
t=3D
> he=3D3D
> > =3DA0five pillars. If it is held that the five pillars are useful pract=
ices=3D
> =A0tow=3D3D
> > ards spirituality, then please explain how and why; and explain if ther=
e =3D
> ar=3D3D
so=3D
> n =3D3D
consider the greatest Turkish poet in the court / diwan style, a Shia
Turcoman from Iraq writing in a mixed Azeri and Ottoman dialect),
Yunus Emre (a Sunni in pre-Ottoman Anatolia. writing in the Turkish
folk tradition), Pir Sultan Abdal (an Alevi Shia from eastern
Anatolia) in the Turkish folk tradition. unfortunately I can't name an
Arab, as I am not that familiar with Arab poets, but I am 100% sure
that such exist.
> On Apr 23, 8:30=3DA0am, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have seen much emphasis on ritualism in Islam, like 5 daily prayers, =
mo=3D
> nt=3D3D
> > h of fasting, the Haj and Zakat, and what they call Shahadah.
> > I have not seen much talk about Spiritualism in Islam, except some in t=
he=3D
> =A0c=3D3D
> > ontext of Sufism.=3D3D20
> > I would like to know what Muslims think about spirituality in Islam. Do=
t=3D
> he=3D3D
> > y think that the five pillars of Islam are also the Spirituality of Isl=
am=3D
> ? =3D3D
> > Or do they think that the Spirituality in Islam is separate entity from=
t=3D
> he=3D3D
> > =3DA0five pillars. If it is held that the five pillars are useful pract=
ices=3D
> =A0tow=3D3D
> > ards spirituality, then please explain how and why; and explain if ther=
e =3D
> ar=3D3D
> > e alternative means to spirituality other than the five pillars?
> > Currently I am doing some research on Spirituality, and that is the rea=
so=3D
> n =3D3D
> > behind this post.
>
> Classically, to my understanding, Tasawwuf or "Sufism" is considered
> to be the Islamic branch of knowledge regarding perfecting your
> sincerity (Ikhlas).
>
or for that matter many poets, such as Omar Khayyam, Fuzuli (whom I
>
> Classically, to my understanding, Tasawwuf or "Sufism" is considered
> to be the Islamic branch of knowledge regarding perfecting your
> sincerity (Ikhlas).
>
consider the greatest Turkish poet in the court / diwan style, a Shia
Turcoman from Iraq writing in a mixed Azeri and Ottoman dialect),
Yunus Emre (a Sunni in pre-Ottoman Anatolia. writing in the Turkish
folk tradition), Pir Sultan Abdal (an Alevi Shia from eastern
Anatolia) in the Turkish folk tradition. unfortunately I can't name an
Arab, as I am not that familiar with Arab poets, but I am 100% sure
that such exist.
Yusuf B Gursey
May 5, 2013, 4:01:00 AM5/5/13
to
On May 5, 2:20=A0am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 22, 6:30=3DA0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have seen much emphasis on ritualism in Islam, like 5 daily prayers, =
mo=3D
> nt=3D3D
t=3D
> he=3D3D
> > y think that the five pillars of Islam are also the Spirituality of Isl=
am=3D
> ? =3D3D
> > Or do they think that the Spirituality in Islam is separate entity from=
t=3D
> he=3D3D
> > =3DA0five pillars. If it is held that the five pillars are useful pract=
ices=3D
> =A0tow=3D3D
> > ards spirituality, then please explain how and why; and explain if ther=
e =3D
> ar=3D3D
in the sense of earning his living writing for a patron. so he freely
expressed his own views. his "day job" was that of an astronomer,
mathematician, engineer and political consultant. much like Chaucer.
> On Apr 22, 6:30=3DA0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have seen much emphasis on ritualism in Islam, like 5 daily prayers, =
mo=3D
> nt=3D3D
> > h of fasting, the Haj and Zakat, and what they call Shahadah.
> > I have not seen much talk about Spiritualism in Islam, except some in t=
he=3D
> =A0c=3D3D
> > ontext of Sufism.=3D3D20
> > I would like to know what Muslims think about spirituality in Islam. Do=
he=3D
> =A0c=3D3D
> > ontext of Sufism.=3D3D20
t=3D
> he=3D3D
> > y think that the five pillars of Islam are also the Spirituality of Isl=
am=3D
> ? =3D3D
> > Or do they think that the Spirituality in Islam is separate entity from=
t=3D
> he=3D3D
> > =3DA0five pillars. If it is held that the five pillars are useful pract=
ices=3D
> =A0tow=3D3D
> > ards spirituality, then please explain how and why; and explain if ther=
e =3D
> ar=3D3D
> > e alternative means to spirituality other than the five pillars?
> > Currently I am doing some research on Spirituality, and that is the rea=
so=3D
> n =3D3D
> > behind this post.
>
> =A0I understand from "spirituality" a leaning towards the otherwordly
so=3D
> n =3D3D
> > behind this post.
>
> rather the material and prescriptive.
>
> there is a current of Islamic thought that looks down upon
> prescriptive ritual, saying that these are merely cruches for the
> unitiate, true believers, they maintain, have no need of what they
> describe as petty prohibitions or rituals, like fasting, the
> pilgrimage, prohibition on alcohol or wine, some even going as far as
> to include daily prayers or going to mosques. this is no modern
> inovation, but has been active since medieval times. it can be
> discerned particularly in the works of poets. I might mention a very
> recent incident of a Turkish musician who was prosecuted for Tweeting
> a verse from Omar Khayyam that alledgedly disparaged, the pilgrimage
> (IIRC or some other "pillar"). the charge, BTW in alledgedly secular
Omar Khayyam wrote poetry for himself, he wasn't a proffessional poet
>
> there is a current of Islamic thought that looks down upon
> prescriptive ritual, saying that these are merely cruches for the
> unitiate, true believers, they maintain, have no need of what they
> describe as petty prohibitions or rituals, like fasting, the
> pilgrimage, prohibition on alcohol or wine, some even going as far as
> to include daily prayers or going to mosques. this is no modern
> inovation, but has been active since medieval times. it can be
> discerned particularly in the works of poets. I might mention a very
> recent incident of a Turkish musician who was prosecuted for Tweeting
> a verse from Omar Khayyam that alledgedly disparaged, the pilgrimage
> (IIRC or some other "pillar"). the charge, BTW in alledgedly secular
in the sense of earning his living writing for a patron. so he freely
expressed his own views. his "day job" was that of an astronomer,
mathematician, engineer and political consultant. much like Chaucer.
Yusuf B Gursey
May 5, 2013, 9:53:43 AM5/5/13
to
On May 3, 12:00=A0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 29, 2013 7:40:01 PM UTC-4, DKleinecke wrote:
> > On Apr 25, 10:10=3D3DA0am, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 29, 2013 7:40:01 PM UTC-4, DKleinecke wrote:
> >=3D20
> >=3D20
> >=3D20
> > > Actually what is meant by spirituality itself is part of my research =
on=3D
> =A0s=3D3D
> >=3D20
> > pi=3D3D3D
> >=3D20
> > > rituality. If spirituality is important in Islam, then it defines wha=
t =3D
> is=3D3D
> >=3D20
> > =A0s=3D3D3D
> >=3D20
> > > pirituality. Whatever definition Islam (or some other forum) assigns =
to=3D
> =A0s=3D3D
> >=3D20
> > pi=3D3D3D
> >=3D20
> > > rituality, I want to know that definition, and what details are direc=
tl=3D
> y =3D3D
> >=3D20
> > co=3D3D3D
> >=3D20
> > > vered under that definition. For example what spirituality is, why it=
i=3D
> s =3D3D
> >=3D20
> > im=3D3D3D
> >=3D20
> > > portant, how it is attained, etc.
> >=3D20
> >=3D20
> >=3D20
> > It is hard to help you in your quest for spirituality when we don't
> >=3D20
> > know what you are looking for. =A0I fear your attempt to tell us what
> >=3D20
> > you are seeking is not helped by this paragraph.
> >=3D20
> >=3D20
> >=3D20
> > It seems to me that what is called "spirituality" in other traditions
> >=3D20
> > is the part played by some of the Sufi's in Islam. =A0Sufi covers a lot
> >=3D20
> > of things some of which I would not call "spirituality". =A0But probabl=
y
> >=3D20
> > the test case is Rumi. If you do not find Rumi addressed toward where
> >=3D20
> > you want to go then I think Islam cannot help you. If, on the other
> >=3D20
> > hand, Rumi appeals to you, he can open up a vast treasure house of
> >=3D20
> > Sufi literature to you. If you need information on Rumi just google
> >=3D20
> > "Rumi" and there are plenty of references.
>
> I am somewhat familiar with Rumi. I do not think Rumi has discussed the s=
>
ub=3D
> ject of "spirituality" as such. The Iranian people call Rumi's Mathnavi H=
al=3D
> f Quran. Rumi describes stories that illustrate Quran according to him. S=
o =3D
> if spirituality is not in Quran, it is not in Rumi. Other writings of Rum=
i =3D
> are mostly Love Ghazals, which are mostly what Rumi stands for in the Wes=
t.
"Love" is a central concept in Sufism. what is outwardly a romantic
love poem is also a metaphor of Love of God and the implications it
has. my father knew a modern bi-shar`i ("without Shar`iah") Turkish
poet and had explained it, unfortunately I forgot the argument but if
you Google "concept of love in Sufism" you will find much about it.
> In fact it is fashionable to throw the name of Rumi. If you have actually=
s=3D
> een Spirituality discussed by Rumi, point me to it, please.=3D20
> Only spirituality I have seen mentioned is in Sufiism. But the Maulvi suf=
ii=3D
> sm is somewhat different, and not so widely practiced. To see how Maulvi =
su=3D
> fiism is different, try comparing the Masthani with the Kashaful Mahjoob =
fo=3D
> r example.=3D20
> You could say there are some hints, not any discussion, on spirituality i=
n =3D
> Hadith Qudsi. But that seems a matter of interpretation. The way those Ha=
di=3D
> th are generally interpreted, it has no spirituality in them.=3D20
> The whole of Islamic practice seems to be not towards spirituality, but t=
ow=3D
> ards something else.
Fariduddien
May 7, 2013, 5:40:56 AM5/7/13
to
On May 5, 4:20=A0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I haven't read Rumi myself but I have read and heard that while
> maintining the primacy of the importance of the love of God, he did
> consider adherence to Sharia and ritual a manifestation of that love.
>
> apparently his followers are divided (I also discern from self
> proclaimed Mevlevis (Turkish pronounciation of the followers of
> Mawlawiyya / Mevlevi darwish =A0/ Sufi order that consider Rumi their
> I haven't read Rumi myself but I have read and heard that while
> maintining the primacy of the importance of the love of God, he did
> consider adherence to Sharia and ritual a manifestation of that love.
>
> apparently his followers are divided (I also discern from self
> proclaimed Mevlevis (Turkish pronounciation of the followers of
> founder). the bi-Shar`i wing (non Sharia following) known as the Shams
> tradition (from Shams-i Tabrizi / Shams of Tabriz, the name of Rumi's
> mentor, who was, his name indicates from Tabriz) and the Sultan Veled
> (Arabic: Walad) tradition, the name of Rumi's son who organized Rumi's
> following after Rumi's death, which is ba:-Shar`i ("with Sharia"). it
> is the latter that has enjoyed official support and recognition under
> the Ottoman Empire
Assalamu alaikum,
> tradition (from Shams-i Tabrizi / Shams of Tabriz, the name of Rumi's
> mentor, who was, his name indicates from Tabriz) and the Sultan Veled
> (Arabic: Walad) tradition, the name of Rumi's son who organized Rumi's
> following after Rumi's death, which is ba:-Shar`i ("with Sharia"). it
> is the latter that has enjoyed official support and recognition under
> the Ottoman Empire
Here are some relevant passages, I think...
Rumi scholar Ibrahim Gamard writes the following about Mevlana/
Jalaluddin Rumi and Shams-i Tabrizi...
<<In the context of Islam, Mevlana and Shams were both very pious
Muslims. Mevlana was a religious authority who inherited the mantle of
religious scholarly authority from his father. He also earned income
to support his family as an Islamic teacher and judge. He was a Sunni
Muslim who followed the Hanafi school of Islamic law. We have more
information about Shams now, from his "Discourses" [Maqalat], a
collection of excerpts from his talks written down by his disciples.
We know that he was not an uneducated, "wild", or "heretical" dervish.
He was a Sunni Muslim, with a solid Islamic education in the Arabic
language, who followed the Shafi`i school of Islamic law. There are
translated quotes from Shams in which he criticized other sufi
teachers as "not following" the example of the Prophet sufficiently.>>
>From http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/rumi-shams.html
Ibrahim Gamard also writes more about the adherence of Mevlana/Rumi
and Shams to "orthodox" Sunni Islam on the following web page...
http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html
(I haven't quoted from here, but people can check out the page
themselves...)
Furthermore, Rumi wrote the following in his preface to the fifth book
of the Mathnawi...
<<This is the fifth bound volume of the books of the Mathnawi and the
clarification of spiritual meanings, in explanation that the (Islamic)
religious Law [shari`at] is like a candle (which) shows the way. For
if you can't bring a candle to hand, there is no travelling on the
way. And when you have come onto the way, that travelling of yours is
(called) the (mystical) Path [Tariqat], and when you have arrived to
the goal, that is the Truth [Haqiqat]. And in regard to this, it has
been said, "If (Divine) truths and realities were evident (for all to
see), religious laws would be made useless. -- Masnavi V: Preface>>
The above translation is also from Ibrahim Gamard -
http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/rumi-on-masnavi.html
In "The Sufi Path of Love," William C. Chittick translates part of the
introduction to the fifth book of the Mathnawi the following way...
<<The Law is like a lamp: It shows the way. Without a lamp, you will
not be able to go forward. When you enter the path, your going is the
Way. And when you reach the goal, that is the Truth.
The Law may be compared to learning the theory of medicine. The Way
involves avoiding certain foods and consuming certain remedies on the
basis of this theory. Then the Truth is to find everlasting health and
to have no more need for theory and practice.
When man dies to the life of this world, the Law and the Way will be
cut off from him, and only the Truth will remain. . . . The Law is
knowledge, the Way is works and the Truth is attainment to God.>>
(From William C. Chittick, "The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual
Teachings of Rumi," pp. 10-11.)
Here is the fuller passage, as Reynold A Nicholson translates it.
<<This is the Fifth Book of the Poem in rhymed couplets and the
spiritual Exposition, setting forth that the Religious Law is like a
candle showing the way. Unless you gain possession of the candle,
there is no wayfaring; and when you have come on to the way, your
wayfaring is the Path; and when you have reached the journey's end,
that is the Truth. Hence it has been said, "If the truths (realities)
were manifest, the religious laws would be naught." As (for example),
when copper becomes gold or was gold originally, it does not need the
alchemy which is the Law, nor need it rub itself upon the
philosophers' stone, which (operation) is the Path; (for), as has been
said, it is unseemly to demand a guide after arrival at the goal, and
blameworthy to discard the guide before arrival at the goal. In short,
the Law is like learning the theory of alchemy from a teacher or a
book, and the Path is (like) making use of chemicals and rubbing the
copper upon the philosophers' stone, and the Truth is (like) the
transmutation of the copper into gold. Those who know alchemy rejoice
in their knowledge of it, saying, =93We know the theory of this
(science)=94; and those who practise it rejoice in their practice of it,
saying, "We perform such works"; and those who have experienced the
reality rejoice in the reality, saying, "We have become gold and are
delivered from the theory and practice of alchemy: we are God's
freedmen." Each party is rejoicing in what they have.
Or the Law may be compared to learning the science of medicine, and
the Path to regulating one's diet in accordance with (the science of)
medicine and taking remedies, and the Truth to gaining health
everlasting and becoming independent of them both. When a man dies to
this (present) life, the Law and the Path are cut off (fall away) from
him, and there remains (only) the Truth. If he possess the Truth, he
will be crying, "Oh, would that my people knew how my Lord hath
forgiven me"; and if he possess it not, he will be crying, "Oh, would
that I had not been given my scroll and had not known my reckoning!
Oh, would that it (death) had been the (final) decision! My riches
have not availed me, my authority hath perished from me." The Law is
knowledge, the Path action, the Truth attainment unto God. Then whoso
hopeth to meet his Lord, let him do good works and associate none
other in the service of his Lord. And God bless the best of His
creatures, Mohammed, and his Family and his Companions and the people
of his House, and grant them peace!>>
>From this, it seems clear that Mevlana's/Rumi's view was that Sharia
(the "Law") was an important component along the path...
Yusuf B Gursey
May 7, 2013, 7:35:56 PM5/7/13
to
On May 4, 11:10=A0am, Fariduddien <faridudd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 4, 9:50=3DA0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > It is true that spirituality means different things to different people=
. =3D
> Th=3D3D
> > at is because spirituality does not mean anything specific, its meaning=
i=3D
> s =3D3D
> > left to the whims of the people. And that is because no religion define=
s =3D
> sp=3D3D
> > irituality in any specific way. Even philosophy does not define spiritu=
al=3D
> it=3D3D
> > y.
> > Is it not strange that a concept so frequently talked about, is left co=
mp=3D
> le=3D3D
> > tely undefined? Is it not ironic that religions and philosophers leave =
th=3D
> is=3D3D
> > =3DA0fundamental thing in life completely undefined?
impotant. Rumi wrote mostly in Persian. many Sufi movements like the
Bektashi use practically only Turkish. the works of of the heterodox
Ali Ilahi in Iran are in Gorani Kurdish. Shah Ismail, founder of the
Safavid Dynasty of Iran made his da`wah in Azeri Turkish, and is
widely credited for elevating Azeri as an alternative to Ottoman
Turkish. Turkish was used in all walks of life in the Ottoman Empire,
and all the fatwas concerning state matters issued by the Shaykh-ul-
Islam (the mufti of Istanbul, known in the West as the Grand Mufti)
were in Turkish. the same for Persian in Iran. "all walks of life"
include the religious sphere.
a heard of someone who had learned Arabic for Islamic studies. when
she decided to specialize in Sufism, she had to take up Persian and
Turkish as well. I am sure there is much written in Urdu as well.
> the definition of an English/Latin word in Islamic primary sources.
>
> Is there an Arabic word which is the equivalent of what you are asking
> about?
>
the Arabic word is al-ru:Hiyyah . ru:Haniyy is more for
"ecclessiastical" though apparnetly it originally "a class of angels
that are pure spirit (whereas most angels have form, though made from
light)". Turkish uses ruhi^ for "psychological" (which in Arabic is
properly nafsiyy) while ruha^ni^ is "spiritual" (though coudl also
mean "ecclesiastical".
"theology" in Arabic is properly divided into fiqh (matters of law and
conduct) and `ilm al-kala:m "Science of Discourse" which deals with
matters of the Hereafter or polemics with other relgions. this is
supposed ot be based an reason, philosophy and logic using the Qur'an
and Hadith as sources. the more mystical approach is called `ilm al-
ba:Tin "Science of the Inner (self) or what is hidden" or more
commonly taSawwuf i.e. Sufism.
>
>
> > Sporadic statements like Zikr produces peace do not constitute spiritua=
li=3D
> ty=3D3D
> > =3DA0. It is like saying dancing makes you feel good. But does the stat=
emen=3D
> t con=3D3D
> On May 4, 9:50=3DA0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > It is true that spirituality means different things to different people=
. =3D
> Th=3D3D
> > at is because spirituality does not mean anything specific, its meaning=
i=3D
> s =3D3D
> > left to the whims of the people. And that is because no religion define=
s =3D
> sp=3D3D
> > irituality in any specific way. Even philosophy does not define spiritu=
al=3D
> it=3D3D
> > y.
> > Is it not strange that a concept so frequently talked about, is left co=
mp=3D
> le=3D3D
> > tely undefined? Is it not ironic that religions and philosophers leave =
th=3D
> is=3D3D
> > =3DA0fundamental thing in life completely undefined?
>
> Keep in mind that "spirituality" is an English word, with Latin roots
> (as I found out from looking it up). The primary Islamic sources are
> all in Arabic, so perhaps it is not so surprising that you cannot find
for Sufism this is certainly untrue. Persian and Turkish are certainly
> Keep in mind that "spirituality" is an English word, with Latin roots
> (as I found out from looking it up). The primary Islamic sources are
> all in Arabic, so perhaps it is not so surprising that you cannot find
impotant. Rumi wrote mostly in Persian. many Sufi movements like the
Bektashi use practically only Turkish. the works of of the heterodox
Ali Ilahi in Iran are in Gorani Kurdish. Shah Ismail, founder of the
Safavid Dynasty of Iran made his da`wah in Azeri Turkish, and is
widely credited for elevating Azeri as an alternative to Ottoman
Turkish. Turkish was used in all walks of life in the Ottoman Empire,
and all the fatwas concerning state matters issued by the Shaykh-ul-
Islam (the mufti of Istanbul, known in the West as the Grand Mufti)
were in Turkish. the same for Persian in Iran. "all walks of life"
include the religious sphere.
a heard of someone who had learned Arabic for Islamic studies. when
she decided to specialize in Sufism, she had to take up Persian and
Turkish as well. I am sure there is much written in Urdu as well.
> the definition of an English/Latin word in Islamic primary sources.
>
> Is there an Arabic word which is the equivalent of what you are asking
> about?
>
"ecclessiastical" though apparnetly it originally "a class of angels
that are pure spirit (whereas most angels have form, though made from
light)". Turkish uses ruhi^ for "psychological" (which in Arabic is
properly nafsiyy) while ruha^ni^ is "spiritual" (though coudl also
mean "ecclesiastical".
"theology" in Arabic is properly divided into fiqh (matters of law and
conduct) and `ilm al-kala:m "Science of Discourse" which deals with
matters of the Hereafter or polemics with other relgions. this is
supposed ot be based an reason, philosophy and logic using the Qur'an
and Hadith as sources. the more mystical approach is called `ilm al-
ba:Tin "Science of the Inner (self) or what is hidden" or more
commonly taSawwuf i.e. Sufism.
>
>
> > Sporadic statements like Zikr produces peace do not constitute spiritua=
li=3D
> ty=3D3D
> > =3DA0. It is like saying dancing makes you feel good. But does the stat=
emen=3D
> t con=3D3D
Yusuf B Gursey
May 7, 2013, 7:42:05 PM5/7/13
to
On May 7, 4:50=A0am, Fariduddien <faridudd...@gmail.com> wrote:
nevertheless. this does not neccesarily reflect on Shams, after all in
Egypt I am told that many visit Imam al-Shafi`'s tomb and attach
wishes and wants to his tomb, even though I am told the Imam in his
lifetime wrote specifically against such practices! mainstream
Mevlevi's are called Sultan Veled supporters because it was he had
made the movement into an organized one.
> in their knowledge of it, saying, =3D93We know the theory of this
> (science)=3D94; and those who practise it rejoice in their practice of it=
> On May 5, 4:20=3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I haven't read Rumi myself but I have read and heard that while
> > maintining the primacy of the importance of the love of God, he did
> > consider adherence to Sharia and ritual a manifestation of that love.
>
> > apparently his followers are divided (I also discern from self
> > proclaimed Mevlevis (Turkish pronounciation of the followers of
> > Mawlawiyya / Mevlevi darwish =3DA0/ Sufi order that consider Rumi their
>
> > I haven't read Rumi myself but I have read and heard that while
> > maintining the primacy of the importance of the love of God, he did
> > consider adherence to Sharia and ritual a manifestation of that love.
>
> > apparently his followers are divided (I also discern from self
> > proclaimed Mevlevis (Turkish pronounciation of the followers of
> > founder). the bi-Shar`i wing (non Sharia following) known as the Shams
> > tradition (from Shams-i Tabrizi / Shams of Tabriz, the name of Rumi's
> > mentor, who was, his name indicates from Tabriz) and the Sultan Veled
> > (Arabic: Walad) tradition, the name of Rumi's son who organized Rumi's
> > following after Rumi's death, which is ba:-Shar`i ("with Sharia"). it
> > is the latter that has enjoyed official support and recognition under
> > the Ottoman Empire
>
> Assalamu alaikum,
>
> Here are some relevant passages, I think...
>
> Rumi scholar Ibrahim Gamard writes the following about Mevlana/
> Jalaluddin Rumi and Shams-i Tabrizi...
>
> <<In the context of Islam, Mevlana and Shams were both very pious
> Muslims. Mevlana was a religious authority who inherited the mantle of
> religious scholarly authority from his father. He also earned income
> to support his family as an Islamic teacher and judge. He was a Sunni
> Muslim who followed the Hanafi school of Islamic law. We have more
> information about Shams now, from his "Discourses" [Maqalat], a
> collection of excerpts from his talks written down by his disciples.
> We know that he was not an uneducated, "wild", or "heretical" dervish.
> He was a Sunni Muslim, with a solid Islamic education in the Arabic
> language, who followed the Shafi`i school of Islamic law. There are
> translated quotes from Shams in which he criticized other sufi
> teachers as "not following" the example of the Prophet sufficiently.>>
>
> >Fromhttp://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/rumi-shams.html
> > tradition (from Shams-i Tabrizi / Shams of Tabriz, the name of Rumi's
> > mentor, who was, his name indicates from Tabriz) and the Sultan Veled
> > (Arabic: Walad) tradition, the name of Rumi's son who organized Rumi's
> > following after Rumi's death, which is ba:-Shar`i ("with Sharia"). it
> > is the latter that has enjoyed official support and recognition under
> > the Ottoman Empire
>
> Assalamu alaikum,
>
> Here are some relevant passages, I think...
>
> Rumi scholar Ibrahim Gamard writes the following about Mevlana/
> Jalaluddin Rumi and Shams-i Tabrizi...
>
> <<In the context of Islam, Mevlana and Shams were both very pious
> Muslims. Mevlana was a religious authority who inherited the mantle of
> religious scholarly authority from his father. He also earned income
> to support his family as an Islamic teacher and judge. He was a Sunni
> Muslim who followed the Hanafi school of Islamic law. We have more
> information about Shams now, from his "Discourses" [Maqalat], a
> collection of excerpts from his talks written down by his disciples.
> We know that he was not an uneducated, "wild", or "heretical" dervish.
> He was a Sunni Muslim, with a solid Islamic education in the Arabic
> language, who followed the Shafi`i school of Islamic law. There are
> translated quotes from Shams in which he criticized other sufi
> teachers as "not following" the example of the Prophet sufficiently.>>
>
>
> Ibrahim Gamard also writes more about the adherence of Mevlana/Rumi
> and Shams to "orthodox" Sunni Islam on the following web page...
that may very well be but the more heterodox champion Shams
> Ibrahim Gamard also writes more about the adherence of Mevlana/Rumi
> and Shams to "orthodox" Sunni Islam on the following web page...
nevertheless. this does not neccesarily reflect on Shams, after all in
Egypt I am told that many visit Imam al-Shafi`'s tomb and attach
wishes and wants to his tomb, even though I am told the Imam in his
lifetime wrote specifically against such practices! mainstream
Mevlevi's are called Sultan Veled supporters because it was he had
made the movement into an organized one.
> (science)=3D94; and those who practise it rejoice in their practice of it=
whisp...@gmail.com
May 14, 2013, 2:11:42 PM5/14/13
to
To me spirituality would be something like AL BATNIYA. Not in the sense of =
some esoteric thing, but in the sense of LOOKING INWARD. And when you look =
inward, whatever you find and experience is spirituality. What someone else=
experiences is his spirituality. In a sense spirituality is both personal =
and universal.
In this context I can use the prayer or fasting or pilgrimage as a toolset,=
together with other toolsets. If a tool works for me, I keep it for as lon=
g as it works for me. If a tool does not work for me, I discard it. In this=
context there seems no place for either Sharia or Tariqa which both seem t=
o be non quranic concepts. Not that spirituality is quranic, but quran is t=
he foundation of everything Islamic. So yes for Islamic Spirituality, whate=
ver that means, quran would be the foundation, in principle.
It is ironic that when you look inward, it obliges you to also look outward=
. It becomes a 'people thing'.=20
On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 6:50:02 PM UTC-4, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> On May 7, 4:50=3DA0am, Fariduddien <faridudd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> > On May 5, 4:20=3D3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> > > Mawlawiyya / Mevlevi darwish =3D3DA0/ Sufi order that consider Rumi t=
heir
>=20
> > > founder). the bi-Shar`i wing (non Sharia following) known as the Sham=
s
>=20
> > > (Arabic: Walad) tradition, the name of Rumi's son who organized Rumi'=
s
>=20
> > > the Ottoman Empire
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Assalamu alaikum,
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> > >Fromhttp://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/rumi-shams.html
>=20
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >
>=20
> > http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html
>=20
> >
>=20
> > themselves...)
>=20
> >
>=20
> > of the Mathnawi...
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> > http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/rumi-on-masnavi.html
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> > in their knowledge of it, saying, =3D3D93We know the theory of this
>=20
> > (science)=3D3D94; and those who practise it rejoice in their practice o=
f it=3D
>=20
> ,
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
some esoteric thing, but in the sense of LOOKING INWARD. And when you look =
inward, whatever you find and experience is spirituality. What someone else=
experiences is his spirituality. In a sense spirituality is both personal =
and universal.
In this context I can use the prayer or fasting or pilgrimage as a toolset,=
together with other toolsets. If a tool works for me, I keep it for as lon=
g as it works for me. If a tool does not work for me, I discard it. In this=
context there seems no place for either Sharia or Tariqa which both seem t=
o be non quranic concepts. Not that spirituality is quranic, but quran is t=
he foundation of everything Islamic. So yes for Islamic Spirituality, whate=
ver that means, quran would be the foundation, in principle.
It is ironic that when you look inward, it obliges you to also look outward=
. It becomes a 'people thing'.=20
On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 6:50:02 PM UTC-4, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> On May 7, 4:50=3DA0am, Fariduddien <faridudd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> > On May 5, 4:20=3D3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> >
>=20
> > > I haven't read Rumi myself but I have read and heard that while
>=20
> > > maintining the primacy of the importance of the love of God, he did
>=20
> > > consider adherence to Sharia and ritual a manifestation of that love.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > > apparently his followers are divided (I also discern from self
>=20
> > > proclaimed Mevlevis (Turkish pronounciation of the followers of
>=20
> > > Mawlawiyya / Mevlevi darwish =3D3DA0/ Sufi order that consider Rumi t=
heir
>=20
> > > founder). the bi-Shar`i wing (non Sharia following) known as the Sham=
s
>=20
> > > tradition (from Shams-i Tabrizi / Shams of Tabriz, the name of Rumi's
>=20
> > > mentor, who was, his name indicates from Tabriz) and the Sultan Veled
>=20
> > > (Arabic: Walad) tradition, the name of Rumi's son who organized Rumi'=
s
>=20
> > > following after Rumi's death, which is ba:-Shar`i ("with Sharia"). it
>=20
> > > is the latter that has enjoyed official support and recognition under
>=20
> > > the Ottoman Empire
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Assalamu alaikum,
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Here are some relevant passages, I think...
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Rumi scholar Ibrahim Gamard writes the following about Mevlana/
>=20
> > Jalaluddin Rumi and Shams-i Tabrizi...
>=20
> >
>=20
> > <<In the context of Islam, Mevlana and Shams were both very pious
>=20
> > Muslims. Mevlana was a religious authority who inherited the mantle of
>=20
> > religious scholarly authority from his father. He also earned income
>=20
> > to support his family as an Islamic teacher and judge. He was a Sunni
>=20
> > Muslim who followed the Hanafi school of Islamic law. We have more
>=20
> > information about Shams now, from his "Discourses" [Maqalat], a
>=20
> > collection of excerpts from his talks written down by his disciples.
>=20
> > We know that he was not an uneducated, "wild", or "heretical" dervish.
>=20
> > He was a Sunni Muslim, with a solid Islamic education in the Arabic
>=20
> > language, who followed the Shafi`i school of Islamic law. There are
>=20
> > translated quotes from Shams in which he criticized other sufi
>=20
> > teachers as "not following" the example of the Prophet sufficiently.>>
>=20
> >
>=20
> > >Fromhttp://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/rumi-shams.html
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Ibrahim Gamard also writes more about the adherence of Mevlana/Rumi
>=20
> > and Shams to "orthodox" Sunni Islam on the following web page...
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> that may very well be but the more heterodox champion Shams
>=20
> nevertheless. this does not neccesarily reflect on Shams, after all in
>=20
> Egypt I am told that many visit Imam al-Shafi`'s tomb and attach
>=20
> wishes and wants to his tomb, even though I am told the Imam in his
>=20
> lifetime wrote specifically against such practices! mainstream
>=20
> Mevlevi's are called Sultan Veled supporters because it was he had
>=20
> made the movement into an organized one.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >
>=20
> > http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html
>=20
> >
>=20
> > (I haven't quoted from here, but people can check out the page
>=20
> > themselves...)
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Furthermore, Rumi wrote the following in his preface to the fifth book
>=20
> > of the Mathnawi...
>=20
> >
>=20
> > <<This is the fifth bound volume of the books of the Mathnawi and the
>=20
> > clarification of spiritual meanings, in explanation that the (Islamic)
>=20
> > religious Law [shari`at] is like a candle (which) shows the way. For
>=20
> > if you can't bring a candle to hand, there is no travelling on the
>=20
> > way. And when you have come onto the way, that travelling of yours is
>=20
> > (called) the (mystical) Path [Tariqat], and when you have arrived to
>=20
> > the goal, that is the Truth [Haqiqat]. And in regard to this, it has
>=20
> > been said, "If (Divine) truths and realities were evident (for all to
>=20
> > see), religious laws would be made useless. -- Masnavi V: Preface>>
>=20
> >
>=20
> > The above translation is also from Ibrahim Gamard -
>=20
> >
>=20
> > http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/rumi-on-masnavi.html
>=20
> >
>=20
> > In "The Sufi Path of Love," William C. Chittick translates part of the
>=20
> > introduction to the fifth book of the Mathnawi the following way...
>=20
> >
>=20
> > <<The Law is like a lamp: It shows the way. Without a lamp, you will
>=20
> > not be able to go forward. When you enter the path, your going is the
>=20
> > Way. And when you reach the goal, that is the Truth.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > The Law may be compared to learning the theory of medicine. The Way
>=20
> > involves avoiding certain foods and consuming certain remedies on the
>=20
> > basis of this theory. Then the Truth is to find everlasting health and
>=20
> > to have no more need for theory and practice.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > When man dies to the life of this world, the Law and the Way will be
>=20
> > cut off from him, and only the Truth will remain. . . . The Law is
>=20
> > knowledge, the Way is works and the Truth is attainment to God.>>
>=20
> >
>=20
> > (From William C. Chittick, "The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual
>=20
> > Teachings of Rumi," pp. 10-11.)
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Here is the fuller passage, as Reynold A Nicholson translates it.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > <<This is the Fifth Book of the Poem in rhymed couplets and the
>=20
> > spiritual Exposition, setting forth that the Religious Law is like a
>=20
> > candle showing the way. Unless you gain possession of the candle,
>=20
> > there is no wayfaring; and when you have come on to the way, your
>=20
> > wayfaring is the Path; and when you have reached the journey's end,
>=20
> > that is the Truth. Hence it has been said, "If the truths (realities)
>=20
> > were manifest, the religious laws would be naught." As (for example),
>=20
> > when copper becomes gold or was gold originally, it does not need the
>=20
> > alchemy which is the Law, nor need it rub itself upon the
>=20
> > philosophers' stone, which (operation) is the Path; (for), as has been
>=20
> > said, it is unseemly to demand a guide after arrival at the goal, and
>=20
> > blameworthy to discard the guide before arrival at the goal. In short,
>=20
> > the Law is like learning the theory of alchemy from a teacher or a
>=20
> > book, and the Path is (like) making use of chemicals and rubbing the
>=20
> > copper upon the philosophers' stone, and the Truth is (like) the
>=20
> > transmutation of the copper into gold. Those who know alchemy rejoice
>=20
> > in their knowledge of it, saying, =3D3D93We know the theory of this
>=20
> > (science)=3D3D94; and those who practise it rejoice in their practice o=
f it=3D
>=20
> ,
>=20
> > saying, "We perform such works"; and those who have experienced the
>=20
> > reality rejoice in the reality, saying, "We have become gold and are
>=20
> > delivered from the theory and practice of alchemy: we are God's
>=20
> > freedmen." Each party is rejoicing in what they have.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Or the Law may be compared to learning the science of medicine, and
>=20
> > the Path to regulating one's diet in accordance with (the science of)
>=20
> > medicine and taking remedies, and the Truth to gaining health
>=20
> > everlasting and becoming independent of them both. When a man dies to
>=20
> > this (present) life, the Law and the Path are cut off (fall away) from
>=20
> > him, and there remains (only) the Truth. If he possess the Truth, he
>=20
> > will be crying, "Oh, would that my people knew how my Lord hath
>=20
> > forgiven me"; and if he possess it not, he will be crying, "Oh, would
>=20
> > that I had not been given my scroll and had not known my reckoning!
>=20
> > Oh, would that it (death) had been the (final) decision! My riches
>=20
> > have not availed me, my authority hath perished from me." The Law is
>=20
> > knowledge, the Path action, the Truth attainment unto God. Then whoso
>=20
> > hopeth to meet his Lord, let him do good works and associate none
>=20
> > other in the service of his Lord. And God bless the best of His
>=20
> > creatures, Mohammed, and his Family and his Companions and the people
>=20
> > of his House, and grant them peace!>>
>=20
> >
>=20
> > >From this, it seems clear that Mevlana's/Rumi's view was that Sharia
>=20
> >
>=20
Yusuf B Gursey
May 14, 2013, 5:30:45 PM5/14/13
to
On May 14, 1:20=A0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
> To me spirituality would be something like AL BATNIYA. Not in the sense o=
f =3D
Batiniya
> some esoteric thing, but in the sense of LOOKING INWARD. And when you loo=
k =3D
that's what it refers to, although it can also refer to trying to find
out what is hidden.
> inward, whatever you find and experience is spirituality. What someone el=
se=3D
> =A0experiences is his spirituality. In a sense spirituality is both perso=
nal =3D
> and universal.
>
> In this context I can use the prayer or fasting or pilgrimage as a toolse=
t,=3D
> =A0together with other toolsets. If a tool works for me, I keep it for as=
lon=3D
> g as it works for me. If a tool does not work for me, I discard it. In th=
is=3D
> =A0context there seems no place for either Sharia or Tariqa which both se=
em t=3D
> o be non quranic concepts. Not that spirituality is quranic, but quran is=
t=3D
> he foundation of everything Islamic. So yes for Islamic Spirituality, wha=
te=3D
rd=3D
> =A0. It becomes a 'people thing'.=3D20
>
>
> To me spirituality would be something like AL BATNIYA. Not in the sense o=
f =3D
Batiniya
> some esoteric thing, but in the sense of LOOKING INWARD. And when you loo=
k =3D
that's what it refers to, although it can also refer to trying to find
out what is hidden.
> inward, whatever you find and experience is spirituality. What someone el=
se=3D
> =A0experiences is his spirituality. In a sense spirituality is both perso=
nal =3D
> and universal.
>
> In this context I can use the prayer or fasting or pilgrimage as a toolse=
t,=3D
> =A0together with other toolsets. If a tool works for me, I keep it for as=
lon=3D
> g as it works for me. If a tool does not work for me, I discard it. In th=
is=3D
> =A0context there seems no place for either Sharia or Tariqa which both se=
em t=3D
> o be non quranic concepts. Not that spirituality is quranic, but quran is=
t=3D
> he foundation of everything Islamic. So yes for Islamic Spirituality, wha=
te=3D
> ver that means, quran would be the foundation, in principle.
> It is ironic that when you look inward, it obliges you to also look outwa=
rd=3D
> =A0. It becomes a 'people thing'.=3D20
>
>
whisp...@gmail.com
May 14, 2013, 8:25:43 PM5/14/13
to
For my purpose, spirituality can not be finding something hidden. For spiri=
tuality is as obvious as hunger, thirst, sex drive, love. How then it can b=
e hidden.=20
Spirituality is part of you, for your inside is part of you, and it was bor=
n with you. It can not be hidden from you. You just have to look inside to =
find it there, and to see it there. But you experience it whether oor not y=
ou look inside. If you ignore it, it nevertheless makes is presence felt, b=
y making you realize that you are off balance.=20
On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 4:40:03 PM UTC-4, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> On May 14, 1:20=3DA0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>=20
> > To me spirituality would be something like AL BATNIYA. Not in the sense=
o=3D
>=20
> f =3D3D
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Batiniya
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > some esoteric thing, but in the sense of LOOKING INWARD. And when you l=
oo=3D
>=20
> k =3D3D
>=20
>=20
>=20
> out what is hidden.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > inward, whatever you find and experience is spirituality. What someone =
el=3D
>=20
> se=3D3D
>=20
> > =3DA0experiences is his spirituality. In a sense spirituality is both p=
erso=3D
>=20
> nal =3D3D
>=20
> > and universal.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > In this context I can use the prayer or fasting or pilgrimage as a tool=
se=3D
>=20
> t,=3D3D
>=20
> > =3DA0together with other toolsets. If a tool works for me, I keep it fo=
r as=3D
>=20
> lon=3D3D
>=20
> > g as it works for me. If a tool does not work for me, I discard it. In =
th=3D
>=20
> is=3D3D
>=20
> > =3DA0context there seems no place for either Sharia or Tariqa which bot=
h se=3D
>=20
> em t=3D3D
>=20
> > o be non quranic concepts. Not that spirituality is quranic, but quran =
is=3D
>=20
> t=3D3D
>=20
> > he foundation of everything Islamic. So yes for Islamic Spirituality, w=
ha=3D
>=20
> te=3D3D
>=20
> > It is ironic that when you look inward, it obliges you to also look out=
wa=3D
>=20
> rd=3D3D
>=20
> > =3DA0. It becomes a 'people thing'.=3D3D20
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
tuality is as obvious as hunger, thirst, sex drive, love. How then it can b=
e hidden.=20
Spirituality is part of you, for your inside is part of you, and it was bor=
n with you. It can not be hidden from you. You just have to look inside to =
find it there, and to see it there. But you experience it whether oor not y=
ou look inside. If you ignore it, it nevertheless makes is presence felt, b=
y making you realize that you are off balance.=20
On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 4:40:03 PM UTC-4, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> On May 14, 1:20=3DA0pm, whisper2...@gmail.com wrote:
>=20
> > To me spirituality would be something like AL BATNIYA. Not in the sense=
o=3D
>=20
> f =3D3D
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Batiniya
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > some esoteric thing, but in the sense of LOOKING INWARD. And when you l=
oo=3D
>=20
> k =3D3D
>=20
>=20
>=20
> that's what it refers to, although it can also refer to trying to find
>=20
> out what is hidden.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > inward, whatever you find and experience is spirituality. What someone =
el=3D
>=20
> se=3D3D
>=20
> > =3DA0experiences is his spirituality. In a sense spirituality is both p=
erso=3D
>=20
> nal =3D3D
>=20
> > and universal.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > In this context I can use the prayer or fasting or pilgrimage as a tool=
se=3D
>=20
> t,=3D3D
>=20
> > =3DA0together with other toolsets. If a tool works for me, I keep it fo=
r as=3D
>=20
> lon=3D3D
>=20
> > g as it works for me. If a tool does not work for me, I discard it. In =
th=3D
>=20
> is=3D3D
>=20
> > =3DA0context there seems no place for either Sharia or Tariqa which bot=
h se=3D
>=20
> em t=3D3D
>=20
> > o be non quranic concepts. Not that spirituality is quranic, but quran =
is=3D
>=20
> t=3D3D
>=20
> > he foundation of everything Islamic. So yes for Islamic Spirituality, w=
ha=3D
>=20
> te=3D3D
>=20
> > ver that means, quran would be the foundation, in principle.
>=20
> > It is ironic that when you look inward, it obliges you to also look out=
wa=3D
>=20
> rd=3D3D
>=20
> > =3DA0. It becomes a 'people thing'.=3D3D20
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
islamcal...@gmail.com
May 15, 2013, 7:45:37 AM5/15/13
to
Check Out This Book - http://www.islamcalls.com/ChapterWiseLink.html and http://www.islamcalls.com/Downloads.html . I found it very useful. Hope you will also like it and may also get benefited!
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