Hadith Jabir - Nur of the Prophet (peace be upon him)

[Azycool]

Hello
Just a question for scholars of the group.

It is regarding the Hadith of The Noor of the Prophet (peace be upon
him) to be the first of the creation, and the rest of creation derived
from that. It was reported to be in Musannaf of Abdu Razzaq which was
published last century but was "ommitted" and recently another version
has been published which included "missing juz", but this has been
described as 'fabricated'. Would anyone please shed some light?

Thank You

[DKleinecke]

The interpretation of the "nur" in the last sentence of 5.15 in the
Quran as The Prophet is more a matter of tafsir than of hadiths. In
context it is almost automatic and is usually accepted by Muslim
commentators without hesitation. The hadith in Abd al-Razzaq looks
like nothing more than an expansion of the tafsir into a rather
fanciful story. I will limit my comments on its authenticity to the
observation that apparently none of the six (all of whom must have
been aware of the Musannaf) thought it good enough to accept.

In the strict sense then it was fabricated - you did not mention who
described it as fabricated - but fabricated is really too strong. It
is based on a sound Quranic text and customary tafsir. But it has been
elaborated mystically to an embarrassing extent. If you are
mystically inclined (a Sufi perhaps) you might find it helpful. But
the hadith, not the tafsir, is not authentic enough for most people to
use in theological discussions.

[hajj abujamal]

Salaam!

On 10/1/2011 7:46 PM, DKleinecke wrote:

> In the strict sense then it was fabricated - you did not mention who
> described it as fabricated - but fabricated is really too strong.

It's not "too strong," it's slander and a lie. That something is
not included in the Sahih Sitta is meaningless as to its actual probity.
The crowd of Sahaba who heard the Messenger say (to the effect) "I
have brought forty new things" dispersed, leaving the Messenger alone
with Salman al-Farsi, who asked "And what are they, Ya Rasulullah?" See
the answer at http://www.muslimamerica.net/mp/fawariq.htm near the end
of the page.

But because this hadith came only through Salman, it is not included
in the Sahih collections. That does not at all mean that it is
"fabricated" ~ it's included in several other collections preserved by
the shuyukh of the tariqas. The Abbasid courts, where the Sahihain were
considered "evidence," are not the place to learn about the faith, but
only the sad and "glorious" history of the muslims.

was-salaam,
abujamal
--
astaghfirullahal-ladhee laa ilaha illa
howal-hayyul-qayyoom wa 'atoobu 'ilaihi

Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

[DKleinecke]

On Oct 1, 11:15=A0pm, hajj abujamal <musl...@muslimamerica.net> wrote:
> Salaam!
>
> On 10/1/2011 7:46 PM, DKleinecke wrote:
>
> > In the strict sense then it was fabricated - you did not mention who
> > described it as fabricated - but fabricated is really too strong.
>

> =A0 =A0 It's not "too strong," it's slander and a lie. =A0That something =

is
> not included in the Sahih Sitta is meaningless as to its actual probity.

> =A0 The crowd of Sahaba who heard the Messenger say (to the effect) "I

> have brought forty new things" dispersed, leaving the Messenger alone

> with Salman al-Farsi, who asked "And what are they, Ya Rasulullah?" =A0Se=
e
> the answer athttp://www.muslimamerica.net/mp/fawariq.htmnear the end
> of the page.
>
> =A0 =A0 But because this hadith came only through Salman, it is not inclu=
ded
> in the Sahih collections. =A0That does not at all mean that it is

> "fabricated" ~ it's included in several other collections preserved by

> the shuyukh of the tariqas. =A0The Abbasid courts, where the Sahihain wer=
e

> considered "evidence," are not the place to learn about the faith, but
> only the sad and "glorious" history of the muslims.
>
> was-salaam,
> abujamal
> --
> astaghfirullahal-ladhee laa ilaha illa
> howal-hayyul-qayyoom wa 'atoobu 'ilaihi
>
> Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,

> a Mercy for us. =A0Be like the better son of Adam.

As Abu Jamal makes clear. - this is a Shi'ite Theory. To make that
even more obvious here is a relatively subdued version of the hadith

"Fourteen thousand years before Adam, upon whom be peace, was created,
I and Ali were a light in the presence of God. When God created Adam,
upon whom be peace, He divided it into two parts. I am one of the
parts and Ali is the other part."

and the Shi'ite source I copied it from adds "Al Muhibb al Tabari
narrates this tradition on the authority of Salman (r.a) from the
Prophet (pbuh&hp) in al Riyad al Nadirah, ii, 163:" You must forgive
me for observing that Shi'ite sources often give false attributions
and I am not expert at verifying them.

There no possibility that a believing Sunni would recite such a
hadith. And it is easy to find much exuberant treatments of the hadith
online.

But there is a grain of authenticity in it. As I mentioned before it
grew out of the last sentence in ayat 5.15 of the Quran. Then in
Shi'ite circles it seems to have just grown like Topsy - bigger and
bigger and wilder and wilder. Interesting if that sort of thing
appeals to you.

[hajj abujamal]

Salaam!

On 10/2/2011 11:47 AM, DKleinecke wrote:

> As Abu Jamal makes clear. - this is a Shi'ite Theory. To make that
> even more obvious here is a relatively subdued version of the hadith

I certainly have not made anything "clear." I've mentioned nothing
that has come through the Shi'ah to my knowledge.

> "Fourteen thousand years before Adam, upon whom be peace, was created,
> I and Ali were a light in the presence of God. When God created Adam,
> upon whom be peace, He divided it into two parts. I am one of the
> parts and Ali is the other part."

I've never heard anything like that, but I'm not surprised.

> and the Shi'ite source I copied it from adds "Al Muhibb al Tabari
> narrates this tradition on the authority of Salman (r.a) from the
> Prophet (pbuh&hp) in al Riyad al Nadirah, ii, 163:" You must forgive
> me for observing that Shi'ite sources often give false attributions
> and I am not expert at verifying them.

So they like Salman. So did Rasulullah.

> There no possibility that a believing Sunni would recite such a
> hadith. And it is easy to find much exuberant treatments of the hadith
> online.

I suspect that only Shi'ah would recite such a thing as that.

> But there is a grain of authenticity in it. As I mentioned before it
> grew out of the last sentence in ayat 5.15 of the Quran. Then in
> Shi'ite circles it seems to have just grown like Topsy - bigger and
> bigger and wilder and wilder. Interesting if that sort of thing
> appeals to you.

"Ana min-nurallahi" does not strike me as exaggerated. But I don't
see it in Q5:15 at all ~ I see something quite different in Q5:15. We
see BY light, we don't see light.

was-salaam,
abujamal
--
astaghfirullahal-ladhee laa ilaha illa
howal-hayyul-qayyoom wa 'atoobu 'ilaihi

Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,

a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

[DKleinecke]

On Oct 2, 3:32=A0pm, hajj abujamal <musl...@muslimamerica.net> wrote:
> Salaam!
>
> On 10/2/2011 11:47 AM, DKleinecke wrote:
>
> > As Abu Jamal makes clear. - this is a Shi'ite Theory. To make that
> > even more obvious here is a relatively subdued version of the hadith
>

> =A0 =A0 I certainly have not made anything "clear." =A0I've mentioned not=

hing
> that has come through the Shi'ah to my knowledge.
>
> > "Fourteen thousand years before Adam, upon whom be peace, was created,
> > I and Ali were a light in the presence of God. When God created Adam,
> > upon whom be peace, He divided it into two parts. I am one of the
> > parts and Ali is the other part."
>

> =A0 =A0 I've never heard anything like that, but I'm not surprised.

>
> > and the Shi'ite source I copied it from adds "Al Muhibb al Tabari

> > narrates this tradition on the authority of Salman (r.a) =A0from the

> > Prophet (pbuh&hp) in al Riyad al Nadirah, ii, 163:" You must forgive
> > me for observing that Shi'ite sources often give false attributions
> > and I am not expert at verifying them.
>

> =A0 =A0 So they like Salman. =A0So did Rasulullah.

>
> > There no possibility that a believing Sunni would recite such a
> > hadith. And it is easy to find much exuberant treatments of the hadith
> > online.
>

> =A0 =A0 I suspect that only Shi'ah would recite such a thing as that.

>
> > But there is a grain of authenticity in it. As I mentioned before it
> > grew out of the last sentence in ayat 5.15 of the Quran. Then in
> > Shi'ite circles it seems to have just grown like Topsy - bigger and
> > bigger and wilder and wilder. Interesting if that sort of thing
> > appeals to you.
>

> =A0 =A0 "Ana min-nurallahi" does not strike me as exaggerated. =A0But I d=
on't
> see it in Q5:15 at all ~ I see something quite different in Q5:15. =A0We

> see BY light, we don't see light.
>
> was-salaam,
> abujamal
> --
> astaghfirullahal-ladhee laa ilaha illa
> howal-hayyul-qayyoom wa 'atoobu 'ilaihi
>
> Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,

> a Mercy for us. =A0Be like the better son of Adam.

It might help if the original poster were to post the text of the
hadith that concerns him.