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Pre-Islamic female Infanticide
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Yusuf B Gursey
May 18, 2012, 11:20:33 PM5/18/12
to
pre-Islamic female infanticide (wa'd al-bana:t), mentioned in the
Qur'an, was actually
practiced, as evidenced from a 2nd Cent. BCE Sabaic inscription from
Yemen, MAFRAY - Qutra 1.
the details are discussed in:
Manfred Kropp, Free and bound prepositions: a new look at the
inscription Mafray/Qutra 1 Proceedings of the Seminar for Arabian
Studies, Vol. 28, Papers from the thirty-first meeting of the Seminar
for Arabian Studies held in Oxford, 17-19 July 1997 (1998), pp.
169-174
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41223623
"It is unlawful for anyone of the tribal-alliance of Matara to kill
his daughter"
Qur'an, was actually
practiced, as evidenced from a 2nd Cent. BCE Sabaic inscription from
Yemen, MAFRAY - Qutra 1.
the details are discussed in:
Manfred Kropp, Free and bound prepositions: a new look at the
inscription Mafray/Qutra 1 Proceedings of the Seminar for Arabian
Studies, Vol. 28, Papers from the thirty-first meeting of the Seminar
for Arabian Studies held in Oxford, 17-19 July 1997 (1998), pp.
169-174
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41223623
"It is unlawful for anyone of the tribal-alliance of Matara to kill
his daughter"
Fariduddien Rice
Jun 4, 2012, 1:33:18 PM6/4/12
to
On May 19, 1:20=A0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> pre-Islamic female infanticide (wa'd al-bana:t), mentioned in the
> Qur'an, was actually
> practiced, as evidenced from a =A02nd Cent. BCE Sabaic inscription from
> pre-Islamic female infanticide (wa'd al-bana:t), mentioned in the
> Qur'an, was actually
> Yemen, MAFRAY - Qutra 1.
>
> the details are discussed in:
>
> Manfred Kropp, Free and bound prepositions: a new look at the
> inscription Mafray/Qutra 1 Proceedings of the Seminar for Arabian
> Studies, Vol. 28, Papers from the thirty-first meeting of the Seminar
> for Arabian Studies held in Oxford, 17-19 July 1997 (1998), pp.
> 169-174
>
> Stable URL:http://www.jstor.org/stable/41223623
>
> "It is unlawful for anyone of the tribal-alliance of Matara to kill
> his daughter"
Assalamu alaikum,
>
> the details are discussed in:
>
> Manfred Kropp, Free and bound prepositions: a new look at the
> inscription Mafray/Qutra 1 Proceedings of the Seminar for Arabian
> Studies, Vol. 28, Papers from the thirty-first meeting of the Seminar
> for Arabian Studies held in Oxford, 17-19 July 1997 (1998), pp.
> 169-174
>
> Stable URL:http://www.jstor.org/stable/41223623
>
> "It is unlawful for anyone of the tribal-alliance of Matara to kill
> his daughter"
Thanks for sharing this information regarding female infanticide in
pre-Islamic Arabia.
I have read that female infanticide still occurs today, in India and
China. In China, the practice is connected to China's one-child
policy. For example, see
http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html
The Qur'an, of course, condemns female infanticide...
"When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned - For what
crime she was killed" (Yusuf Ali translation, 81:8-9)
Describing the practices of the Arabian polytheists, the Qur'an also
says in meaning:
"When news is brought to one of them, of (the birth of) a female
(child), his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief! With
shame does he hide himself from his people, because of the bad news he
has had! Shall he retain it on (sufferance and) contempt, or bury it
in the dust? Ah! what an evil (choice) they decide on" (Yusuf Ali
translation, 16:58-59)
Fariduddien
Yusuf B Gursey
Jun 4, 2012, 7:04:05 PM6/4/12
to
On Jun 4, 1:33=A0pm, Fariduddien Rice <faridudd...@gmail.com> wrote:
revisonists counter that the Qur'an isthe only evidnce for this
practice in Pre-Islamic Arabia. the inscription counters this
argument.
furthermore the way it is phrased "it against the <s3n> {to kill his
daughter etc.}"
the phoneme /s3/ was pronounced [s] and corresponds etymologically to
Arabic sin. the word anticipates Arabic sunna(t) (doubled consonants
were not indicated in South Arabian writing)
that Arabic had a special verb for infanticide (wa'd) shows that this
practice was widespread.
> On May 19, 1:20=3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > pre-Islamic female infanticide (wa'd al-bana:t), mentioned in the
> > Qur'an, was actually
> > practiced, as evidenced from a =3DA02nd Cent. BCE Sabaic inscription fr=
>
>
>
>
>
> > pre-Islamic female infanticide (wa'd al-bana:t), mentioned in the
> > Qur'an, was actually
practice in Pre-Islamic Arabia. the inscription counters this
argument.
furthermore the way it is phrased "it against the <s3n> {to kill his
daughter etc.}"
the phoneme /s3/ was pronounced [s] and corresponds etymologically to
Arabic sin. the word anticipates Arabic sunna(t) (doubled consonants
were not indicated in South Arabian writing)
that Arabic had a special verb for infanticide (wa'd) shows that this
practice was widespread.
DKleinecke
Jun 4, 2012, 9:32:17 PM6/4/12
to
On Jun 4, 4:04=A0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 1:33=3DA0pm, Fariduddien Rice <faridudd...@gmail.com> wrote:
n fr=3D
I don't see any reason to doubt that old-fashioned men in historical
Arabia practiced infanticide. There is plenty of evidence for
infanticide in other cultures close to Arabia two thousand years ago.
Nor should there be any doubt that Islam prohibited infanticide. The
core of Islam is set of moral commands - such as the prohibition
against alcohol and against any sexual activity outside of marriage -
of which a prohibition of infanticide is in clear agreement.
There are a few loose ends still unresolved - not that they matter
much. The verb w'd may mean female infanticide by burying alive or it
may mean infanticide of either sex by any means - or perhaps the
meaning varied from place. I incline toward the second reading because
there are references - in the hadiths and, I think in the Qur'an - to
not killing one's children because of poverty
Another loose end is how effective the Islamic prohibition actually
was. We know that the prohibition of sex outside of marriage was
quite ineffective (and some revisionists have taken the phrase about
"those whom your right hand possesses" as clear evidence that the
Qur'an has been meddled with and altered please the powerful.)
The almost underground practice of female genital mutilation still
endures as a legacy from the bad habits of pre-Islamic Arabia. I will
be very reluctant to deny that infanticide does not still occur among
Mulsims.
> On Jun 4, 1:33=3DA0pm, Fariduddien Rice <faridudd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 19, 1:20=3D3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > pre-Islamic female infanticide (wa'd al-bana:t), mentioned in the
> > > Qur'an, was actually
> > > practiced, as evidenced from a =3D3DA02nd Cent. BCE Sabaic inscriptio=
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 19, 1:20=3D3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > pre-Islamic female infanticide (wa'd al-bana:t), mentioned in the
> > > Qur'an, was actually
n fr=3D
Arabia practiced infanticide. There is plenty of evidence for
infanticide in other cultures close to Arabia two thousand years ago.
Nor should there be any doubt that Islam prohibited infanticide. The
core of Islam is set of moral commands - such as the prohibition
against alcohol and against any sexual activity outside of marriage -
of which a prohibition of infanticide is in clear agreement.
There are a few loose ends still unresolved - not that they matter
much. The verb w'd may mean female infanticide by burying alive or it
may mean infanticide of either sex by any means - or perhaps the
meaning varied from place. I incline toward the second reading because
there are references - in the hadiths and, I think in the Qur'an - to
not killing one's children because of poverty
Another loose end is how effective the Islamic prohibition actually
was. We know that the prohibition of sex outside of marriage was
quite ineffective (and some revisionists have taken the phrase about
"those whom your right hand possesses" as clear evidence that the
Qur'an has been meddled with and altered please the powerful.)
The almost underground practice of female genital mutilation still
endures as a legacy from the bad habits of pre-Islamic Arabia. I will
be very reluctant to deny that infanticide does not still occur among
Mulsims.
Yusuf B Gursey
Jun 4, 2012, 11:48:55 PM6/4/12
to
On Jun 4, 9:32=A0pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 4:04=3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 4, 1:33=3D3DA0pm, Fariduddien Rice <faridudd...@gmail.com> wrote=
:
ptio=3D
> n fr=3D3D
> infanticide in other cultures close to Arabia two thousand years ago.
> Nor should there be any doubt that Islam prohibited infanticide. The
> core of Islam is set of moral commands - such as the prohibition
> against alcohol and against any sexual activity outside of marriage -
> of which a prohibition of infanticide is in clear agreement.
>
> There are a few loose ends still unresolved - not that they matter
> much. The verb w'd may mean female infanticide by burying alive or it
> may mean infanticide of either sex by any means - or perhaps the
wa'd means infanticide in general. but there are two passages in the
Qur'an that specifically refer to female infanticide.
> meaning varied from place. I incline toward the second reading because
> there are references - in the hadiths and, I think in the Qur'an - to
> not killing one's children because of poverty
>
> Another loose end is how effective the Islamic prohibition actually
> was. =A0We know that the prohibition of sex outside of marriage was
sensibilities but no more.
> The almost underground practice of female genital mutilation still
> endures as a legacy from the bad habits of pre-Islamic Arabia. I will
> be very reluctant to deny that infanticide does not still occur among
> Mulsims.
yes, there have been articles on it.
> On Jun 4, 4:04=3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 4, 1:33=3D3DA0pm, Fariduddien Rice <faridudd...@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
> > > On May 19, 1:20=3D3D3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > pre-Islamic female infanticide (wa'd al-bana:t), mentioned in the
> > > > Qur'an, was actually
> > > > practiced, as evidenced from a =3D3D3DA02nd Cent. BCE Sabaic inscri=
> > > On May 19, 1:20=3D3D3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > pre-Islamic female infanticide (wa'd al-bana:t), mentioned in the
> > > > Qur'an, was actually
ptio=3D
> n fr=3D3D
> > om
> > > > Yemen, MAFRAY - Qutra 1.
>
> > > > the details are discussed in:
>
> > > > Manfred Kropp, Free and bound prepositions: a new look at the
> > > > inscription Mafray/Qutra 1 Proceedings of the Seminar for Arabian
> > > > Studies, Vol. 28, Papers from the thirty-first meeting of the Semin=
> > > > Yemen, MAFRAY - Qutra 1.
>
> > > > the details are discussed in:
>
> > > > Manfred Kropp, Free and bound prepositions: a new look at the
> > > > inscription Mafray/Qutra 1 Proceedings of the Seminar for Arabian
ar
> > > > for Arabian Studies held in Oxford, 17-19 July 1997 (1998), pp.
> > > > 169-174
>
> > > > Stable URL:http://www.jstor.org/stable/41223623
>
> > > > "It is unlawful for anyone of the tribal-alliance of Matara to kill
> > > > his daughter"
>
> > > Assalamu alaikum,
>
> > > Thanks for sharing this information regarding female infanticide in
> > > pre-Islamic Arabia.
>
> > > I have read that female infanticide still occurs today, in India and
> > > China. In China, the practice is connected to China's one-child
> > > policy. For example, see
>
> > >http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html
>
> > > The Qur'an, of course, condemns female infanticide...
>
> > > "When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned - For what
> > > crime she was killed" (Yusuf Ali translation, 81:8-9)
>
> > > Describing the practices of the Arabian polytheists, the Qur'an also
> > > says in meaning:
>
> > > "When news is brought to one of them, of (the birth of) a female
> > > (child), his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief! With
> > > shame does he hide himself from his people, because of the bad news h=
> > > > for Arabian Studies held in Oxford, 17-19 July 1997 (1998), pp.
> > > > 169-174
>
> > > > Stable URL:http://www.jstor.org/stable/41223623
>
> > > > "It is unlawful for anyone of the tribal-alliance of Matara to kill
> > > > his daughter"
>
> > > Assalamu alaikum,
>
> > > Thanks for sharing this information regarding female infanticide in
> > > pre-Islamic Arabia.
>
> > > I have read that female infanticide still occurs today, in India and
> > > China. In China, the practice is connected to China's one-child
> > > policy. For example, see
>
> > >http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html
>
> > > The Qur'an, of course, condemns female infanticide...
>
> > > "When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned - For what
> > > crime she was killed" (Yusuf Ali translation, 81:8-9)
>
> > > Describing the practices of the Arabian polytheists, the Qur'an also
> > > says in meaning:
>
> > > "When news is brought to one of them, of (the birth of) a female
> > > (child), his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief! With
e
> > > has had! Shall he retain it on (sufferance and) contempt, or bury it
> > > in the dust? Ah! what an evil (choice) they decide on" (Yusuf Ali
> > > translation, 16:58-59)
>
> > > Fariduddien
>
> > revisonists counter that the Qur'an isthe only evidnce for this
> > practice in Pre-Islamic Arabia. the inscription counters this
> > argument.
>
> > furthermore the way it is phrased "it against the <s3n> {to kill his
> > daughter etc.}"
>
> > the phoneme /s3/ was pronounced [s] and corresponds etymologically to
> > Arabic sin. the word anticipates Arabic sunna(t) (doubled consonants
> > were not indicated in South Arabian writing)
>
> > that Arabic had a special verb for infanticide (wa'd) shows that this
> > practice was widespread.
>
> I don't see any reason to doubt that old-fashioned men in historical
> Arabia practiced infanticide. There is plenty of evidence for
some have argued against a particular bias towards infant girls.
> > > has had! Shall he retain it on (sufferance and) contempt, or bury it
> > > in the dust? Ah! what an evil (choice) they decide on" (Yusuf Ali
> > > translation, 16:58-59)
>
> > > Fariduddien
>
> > revisonists counter that the Qur'an isthe only evidnce for this
> > practice in Pre-Islamic Arabia. the inscription counters this
> > argument.
>
> > furthermore the way it is phrased "it against the <s3n> {to kill his
> > daughter etc.}"
>
> > the phoneme /s3/ was pronounced [s] and corresponds etymologically to
> > Arabic sin. the word anticipates Arabic sunna(t) (doubled consonants
> > were not indicated in South Arabian writing)
>
> > that Arabic had a special verb for infanticide (wa'd) shows that this
> > practice was widespread.
>
> I don't see any reason to doubt that old-fashioned men in historical
> Arabia practiced infanticide. There is plenty of evidence for
> infanticide in other cultures close to Arabia two thousand years ago.
> Nor should there be any doubt that Islam prohibited infanticide. The
> core of Islam is set of moral commands - such as the prohibition
> against alcohol and against any sexual activity outside of marriage -
> of which a prohibition of infanticide is in clear agreement.
>
> There are a few loose ends still unresolved - not that they matter
> much. The verb w'd may mean female infanticide by burying alive or it
> may mean infanticide of either sex by any means - or perhaps the
Qur'an that specifically refer to female infanticide.
> meaning varied from place. I incline toward the second reading because
> there are references - in the hadiths and, I think in the Qur'an - to
> not killing one's children because of poverty
>
> Another loose end is how effective the Islamic prohibition actually
> quite ineffective (and some revisionists have taken the phrase about
> "those whom your =A0right hand possesses" as clear evidence that the
> Qur'an has been meddled with and altered please the powerful.)
>
I don't find any problem with that phrase. it may ruffle modern
>
sensibilities but no more.
> The almost underground practice of female genital mutilation still
> endures as a legacy from the bad habits of pre-Islamic Arabia. I will
> be very reluctant to deny that infanticide does not still occur among
> Mulsims.
DKleinecke
Jun 6, 2012, 11:52:02 PM6/6/12
to
On Jun 4, 8:48=A0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
culture prized sons and deplored daughters.
> wa'd means infanticide in general. but there are two passages in the
> Qur'an that specifically refer to female infanticide.
which, it seems clear was the usual infanticide and therefore in need
of explicit condemnation.
> > We know that the prohibition of sex outside of marriage was
> > quite ineffective (and some revisionists have taken the phrase about
> > "those whom your right hand possesses" as clear evidence that the
that it "proves" the Qur'an has been corrupted by exemplifying a
corruption - of both the words of the Qur'an and the teaching of the
prophet.
The assumption is that the original Islamic teaching on sexual
relations was that there should be no sexual activity outside of
marriage. The scenario goes on that as the Empire grew and great
numbers of slaves were captured (all of this after the death of
Muhammad) the rich and powerful men among the Muslims wanted to
legitimize their use of concubines - even though the teaching forbade
them. So they changed Islam to allow for concubines and added the
phrase in question to the Qur'an to justify it.
Mu'awiya and the other men of the first generation appear to have had
only one or two wives and no known concubines but Abd al-Malik, a long
generation later, had a classical harem and a dozen or more sons.
This would indicate a change in Muslim morality around the middle of
the first century.
I myself am inclined to believe that Muhammad forbade concubines but
his followers could not tolerate such a restriction and altered the
religion to accommodate their lusts.
> On Jun 4, 9:32=3DA0pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't see any reason to doubt that old-fashioned men in historical
> > Arabia practiced infanticide. There is plenty of evidence for
>
> some have argued against a particular bias towards infant girls.
I would assume that infanticide was mostly confined to girls. Arabic
> > I don't see any reason to doubt that old-fashioned men in historical
> > Arabia practiced infanticide. There is plenty of evidence for
>
> some have argued against a particular bias towards infant girls.
culture prized sons and deplored daughters.
> wa'd means infanticide in general. but there are two passages in the
> Qur'an that specifically refer to female infanticide.
of explicit condemnation.
> > We know that the prohibition of sex outside of marriage was
> > quite ineffective (and some revisionists have taken the phrase about
> > Qur'an has been meddled with and altered please the powerful.)
>
> I don't find any problem with that phrase. it may ruffle modern
> sensibilities but no more.
The point of phrase is not whether it degrades women or whatever but
>
> I don't find any problem with that phrase. it may ruffle modern
> sensibilities but no more.
that it "proves" the Qur'an has been corrupted by exemplifying a
corruption - of both the words of the Qur'an and the teaching of the
prophet.
The assumption is that the original Islamic teaching on sexual
relations was that there should be no sexual activity outside of
marriage. The scenario goes on that as the Empire grew and great
numbers of slaves were captured (all of this after the death of
Muhammad) the rich and powerful men among the Muslims wanted to
legitimize their use of concubines - even though the teaching forbade
them. So they changed Islam to allow for concubines and added the
phrase in question to the Qur'an to justify it.
Mu'awiya and the other men of the first generation appear to have had
only one or two wives and no known concubines but Abd al-Malik, a long
generation later, had a classical harem and a dozen or more sons.
This would indicate a change in Muslim morality around the middle of
the first century.
I myself am inclined to believe that Muhammad forbade concubines but
his followers could not tolerate such a restriction and altered the
religion to accommodate their lusts.
Yusuf B Gursey
Jun 7, 2012, 6:02:28 AM6/7/12
to
On Jun 6, 11:52=A0pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 8:48=3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> relations was that there should be no sexual activity outside of
> marriage. The scenario goes on that as the Empire grew and great
Islam is not particularly puritanical, and views marriage as a
contract rather than as a sacrement, so it stands to reason that it
would allow sexual relations with someone taht has the contractual
relationship of servitude. after all, Islam initially allowed mu`ta
("tempoaray") marriages, as Shia still do.
> numbers of slaves were captured (all of this after the death of
> Muhammad) the rich and powerful men among the Muslims wanted to
> legitimize their use of concubines - even though the teaching forbade
tradition says that Muhammad had at least one concubine, Marya the
Copt.
> them. =A0So they changed Islam to allow for concubines and added the
you are arguing in a vaccuum.
> On Jun 4, 8:48=3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 4, 9:32=3D3DA0pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I don't see any reason to doubt that old-fashioned men in historical
> > > Arabia practiced infanticide. There is plenty of evidence for
>
> > some have argued against a particular bias towards infant girls.
>
> I would assume that infanticide was mostly confined to girls. Arabic
> culture prized sons and deplored daughters.
>
> > wa'd means infanticide in general. but there are two passages in the
> > Qur'an that specifically refer to female infanticide.
>
> which, it seems clear was the usual infanticide and therefore in need
> of explicit condemnation.
>
> > > We know that the prohibition of sex outside of marriage was
> > > quite ineffective (and some revisionists have taken the phrase about
> > > "those whom your right hand possesses" as clear evidence that the
> > > Qur'an has been meddled with and altered please the powerful.)
>
> > I don't find any problem with that phrase. it may ruffle modern
> > sensibilities but no more.
>
> The point of phrase is not whether it degrades women or whatever but
> that it "proves" the Qur'an has been corrupted by exemplifying a
> corruption - of both the words of the Qur'an and the teaching of the
> prophet.
>
> The assumption is that the original Islamic teaching on sexual
that is your assumption.
> > On Jun 4, 9:32=3D3DA0pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I don't see any reason to doubt that old-fashioned men in historical
> > > Arabia practiced infanticide. There is plenty of evidence for
>
> > some have argued against a particular bias towards infant girls.
>
> I would assume that infanticide was mostly confined to girls. Arabic
> culture prized sons and deplored daughters.
>
> > wa'd means infanticide in general. but there are two passages in the
> > Qur'an that specifically refer to female infanticide.
>
> which, it seems clear was the usual infanticide and therefore in need
> of explicit condemnation.
>
> > > We know that the prohibition of sex outside of marriage was
> > > quite ineffective (and some revisionists have taken the phrase about
> > > "those whom your right hand possesses" as clear evidence that the
> > > Qur'an has been meddled with and altered please the powerful.)
>
> > I don't find any problem with that phrase. it may ruffle modern
> > sensibilities but no more.
>
> The point of phrase is not whether it degrades women or whatever but
> that it "proves" the Qur'an has been corrupted by exemplifying a
> corruption - of both the words of the Qur'an and the teaching of the
> prophet.
>
> The assumption is that the original Islamic teaching on sexual
> relations was that there should be no sexual activity outside of
> marriage. The scenario goes on that as the Empire grew and great
contract rather than as a sacrement, so it stands to reason that it
would allow sexual relations with someone taht has the contractual
relationship of servitude. after all, Islam initially allowed mu`ta
("tempoaray") marriages, as Shia still do.
> numbers of slaves were captured (all of this after the death of
> Muhammad) the rich and powerful men among the Muslims wanted to
> legitimize their use of concubines - even though the teaching forbade
Copt.
> them. =A0So they changed Islam to allow for concubines and added the
> phrase in question to the Qur'an to justify it.
>
> Mu'awiya and the other men of the first generation appear to have had
> only one or two wives and no known concubines but Abd al-Malik, a long
> generation later, =A0had a classical harem and a dozen or more sons.
>
> Mu'awiya and the other men of the first generation appear to have had
> only one or two wives and no known concubines but Abd al-Malik, a long
> This would indicate a change in Muslim morality around the middle of
> the first century.
>
> I myself am inclined to believe that Muhammad forbade concubines but
> his followers could not tolerate such a restriction and altered the
> religion to accommodate their lusts.
that's your belief without foundation.
> the first century.
>
> I myself am inclined to believe that Muhammad forbade concubines but
> his followers could not tolerate such a restriction and altered the
> religion to accommodate their lusts.
you are arguing in a vaccuum.
Yusuf B Gursey
Jun 7, 2012, 7:01:26 AM6/7/12
to
On Jun 6, 11:52=A0pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 8:48=3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> them. =A0So they changed Islam to allow for concubines and added the
should a Judaizing religion like Islam forbid it? (rhetorical
question)
> Mu'awiya and the other men of the first generation appear to have had
> only one or two wives and no known concubines but Abd al-Malik, a long
> generation later, =A0had a classical harem and a dozen or more sons.
parties, not so powerful, didn't use this as a polemic, in fact the
Shia even continued mu`ta marriages (in addition the regular wives).
> On Jun 4, 8:48=3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> phrase in question to the Qur'an to justify it.
>
Judaism allowed relations with female slaves (cf. Hagar), so why
>
should a Judaizing religion like Islam forbid it? (rhetorical
question)
> Mu'awiya and the other men of the first generation appear to have had
> only one or two wives and no known concubines but Abd al-Malik, a long
> This would indicate a change in Muslim morality around the middle of
> the first century.
don't forget there were civil wars in between, and the opposing
> the first century.
parties, not so powerful, didn't use this as a polemic, in fact the
Shia even continued mu`ta marriages (in addition the regular wives).
Yusuf B Gursey
Jun 9, 2012, 7:15:45 AM6/9/12
to
On Jun 4, 11:48=A0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 9:32=3DA0pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 4, 4:04=3D3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 4, 1:33=3D3D3DA0pm, Fariduddien Rice <faridudd...@gmail.com> w=
rote=3D
> :
>
> > > > On May 19, 1:20=3D3D3D3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wr=
scri=3D
> ptio=3D3D
> > n fr=3D3D3D
in=3D
h=3D
> e
> > > > has had! Shall he retain it on (sufferance and) contempt, or bury i=
correction: lexicographers give it as specifically as burial of infant
girls, but outside of the Qur'an it seems to be used for infanticide
in general as well.
> > meaning varied from place. I incline toward the second reading because
> > there are references - in the hadiths and, I think in the Qur'an - to
> > not killing one's children because of poverty
>
> > Another loose end is how effective the Islamic prohibition actually
> > was. =3DA0We know that the prohibition of sex outside of marriage was
> On Jun 4, 9:32=3DA0pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 4, 4:04=3D3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 4, 1:33=3D3D3DA0pm, Fariduddien Rice <faridudd...@gmail.com> w=
rote=3D
> :
>
> > > > On May 19, 1:20=3D3D3D3DA0pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
>
> > > > > pre-Islamic female infanticide (wa'd al-bana:t), mentioned in the
> > > > > Qur'an, was actually
> > > > > practiced, as evidenced from a =3D3D3D3DA02nd Cent. BCE Sabaic in=
>
> > > > > pre-Islamic female infanticide (wa'd al-bana:t), mentioned in the
> > > > > Qur'an, was actually
scri=3D
> ptio=3D3D
> > n fr=3D3D3D
> > > om
> > > > > Yemen, MAFRAY - Qutra 1.
>
> > > > > the details are discussed in:
>
> > > > > Manfred Kropp, Free and bound prepositions: a new look at the
> > > > > inscription Mafray/Qutra 1 Proceedings of the Seminar for Arabian
> > > > > Studies, Vol. 28, Papers from the thirty-first meeting of the Sem=
> > > > > Yemen, MAFRAY - Qutra 1.
>
> > > > > the details are discussed in:
>
> > > > > Manfred Kropp, Free and bound prepositions: a new look at the
> > > > > inscription Mafray/Qutra 1 Proceedings of the Seminar for Arabian
in=3D
> ar
> > > > > for Arabian Studies held in Oxford, 17-19 July 1997 (1998), pp.
> > > > > 169-174
>
> > > > > Stable URL:http://www.jstor.org/stable/41223623
>
> > > > > "It is unlawful for anyone of the tribal-alliance of Matara to ki=
> > > > > for Arabian Studies held in Oxford, 17-19 July 1997 (1998), pp.
> > > > > 169-174
>
> > > > > Stable URL:http://www.jstor.org/stable/41223623
>
ll
> > > > > his daughter"
>
> > > > Assalamu alaikum,
>
> > > > Thanks for sharing this information regarding female infanticide in
> > > > pre-Islamic Arabia.
>
> > > > I have read that female infanticide still occurs today, in India an=
> > > > > his daughter"
>
> > > > Assalamu alaikum,
>
> > > > Thanks for sharing this information regarding female infanticide in
> > > > pre-Islamic Arabia.
>
d
> > > > China. In China, the practice is connected to China's one-child
> > > > policy. For example, see
>
> > > >http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html
>
> > > > The Qur'an, of course, condemns female infanticide...
>
> > > > "When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned - For what
> > > > crime she was killed" (Yusuf Ali translation, 81:8-9)
>
> > > > Describing the practices of the Arabian polytheists, the Qur'an als=
> > > > China. In China, the practice is connected to China's one-child
> > > > policy. For example, see
>
> > > >http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html
>
> > > > The Qur'an, of course, condemns female infanticide...
>
> > > > "When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned - For what
> > > > crime she was killed" (Yusuf Ali translation, 81:8-9)
>
o
> > > > says in meaning:
>
> > > > "When news is brought to one of them, of (the birth of) a female
> > > > (child), his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief! With
> > > > shame does he hide himself from his people, because of the bad news=
> > > > says in meaning:
>
> > > > "When news is brought to one of them, of (the birth of) a female
> > > > (child), his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief! With
h=3D
> e
> > > > has had! Shall he retain it on (sufferance and) contempt, or bury i=
girls, but outside of the Qur'an it seems to be used for infanticide
in general as well.
> > meaning varied from place. I incline toward the second reading because
> > there are references - in the hadiths and, I think in the Qur'an - to
> > not killing one's children because of poverty
>
> > Another loose end is how effective the Islamic prohibition actually
> > quite ineffective (and some revisionists have taken the phrase about
> > "those whom your =3DA0right hand possesses" as clear evidence that the
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