God and Human Government Part 1

[bwme...@toast.net]

God and Human Governments

At the time of Jacob's death there never was, nor had there been, a
king over Israel.

Nor would there be, until Israel sinned by rejecting God's direction
and demanding a human king, instead, the first of whom was Saul the
Benjamite, the son of Kish. There had been rulers: ie Moses, who
even "gave The Law of Moses," and there had been Judges, whom God
raised up from time to time to take command and deliver Israel from
the consequences of her repeated sinning and idolatry. But these
were not kings: they only relayed the Laws and directives of God, or
at least were supposed to, which is the point, here.

But long before king Saul, who was a BENJAMITE, not a Judaean, God
had made a strange promise through Jacob: "The Scepter shall not
pass from JUDAH, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh
be come" --- Genesis 49:10. Most Believer commentators are agreed
that this means something like "it will be from the descendants of
Judah that the rightful kings over Israel will come, until the
Christ, the Messiah, comes," which is perhaps somewhat
oversimplified.

There are some problems associated with this Divine Prophecy, as to
its fulfillment over the course of the following millenia. For one
thing, it ought to be a proof to any godly Believing Jew that the
Lord Jesus is that Messiah, since He fulfilled that Promise, among
many others that are even more easy to see.

Because JUDAH LOST THE SCEPTER SHORTLY AFTER HIS (SHILOH'S) BIRTH.
The Jews of that time fully recognized that fact, when it was
recorded:

*********************************************
The Talmud itself
admits that "a little more than forty years before the destruction
of the Temple (which would be around 30 AD), the power of pronouncing
capital sentences was taken away from the Jews."

Rabbi Rachmon says, "When the members of the Sanhedrin found
themselves deprived of their right over life and death, a general
consternation took possession of them; they covered their heads with
ashes, and their bodies with sackcloth, exclaiming: `Woe unto us,
for the scepter has departed from Judah, and the Messiah has not
come!' "

--- Evidence that Demands a Verdict, pp 168-169
*********************************************

Thus, presumably the most knowledgeable Jews, of the Law, of that
time, admit that this Prophecy had been fulfilled, UP TO THAT TIME,
the objections of modern commentators and "scholars" notwithstanding.
Judah, up to then, in their minds, had never lost the Scepter, as
Jacob had Prophesied.

It also shows that these Jews paid close heed to that Prophecy, and
were very concerned about it, or they would have had no reason to be
upset over the turn of events "about 40 years before the destruction
of the Temple." It was obvious to them that THE SCRIPTURES OF GOD
HAD FAILED! And if they had recognized that Shiloh HAD come (which
Luke 2:11-18 makes clear they should have), they would have had no
reason to be so upset.

Conclusion: Genesis 49:10 is another proof that the Lord Jesus is the
Eternal Messiah (+ Micah 5:2).

But other Jews, who DID see that fact, that Shiloh had come (Matthew
2:1-3), were also very upset (for very different reasons), along
with the monster, Herod the Great, and evidently collaborated with
him, their otherwise hated enemy, to have Shiloh murdered at his
hands (fulfilling Psa 2:1-3, as Acts 4 below shows). As they did 31
years later, at Pilate's hands.

It is alluded to also in Acts 4:25-27, and Psa. 2:1-3, which the Acts
passage points to. These three passages seem to me to make the
point beyond controversy --- but Nicodemus testifies to it also
about 30 years later, in John 3, by his use of "we" in the 2nd verse.
"HE CAME TO HIS OWN, AND HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT."

When there are "problems" with a Divine Prophecy, experience always
shows that there is great benefit in CAREFULLY looking at EXACTLY
what the Prophecy says. This usually uncovers precision and detail
making the Prophecy even more spectacular than otherwise. Here, the
Prophecy was that the "Scepter would not depart from JUDAH . . ."

But the first king did not come till hundreds of years later (Saul),
and when he did come, he was not of Judah, but rather of Benjamin.

But as to precision of the Prophecy, it was that the Scepter would
not DEPART from Judah. Now any fifth grader can tell you that
something cannot depart from somewhere until it is there in the
first place!

And the Scepter was not in the hands of Judah until the successor of
Saul, David, came to the throne. THAT is the point from which the
Prophecy must commence.

Exit the first two "problems" with the Prophecy!

Bob
Christ Died to Save You

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[Menno van Barneveld]

<bwme...@toast.net> schreef in bericht news:3681EB11-DC94-A370-
B7F8-15C...@art.srcbs.org...

Where is this described?

Luke 2:11-18 does not write about Shiloh and Jesus is no Shiloh at all.

>
> Conclusion: Genesis 49:10 is another proof that the Lord Jesus is the
> Eternal Messiah (+ Micah 5:2).
>
> But other Jews, who DID see that fact, that Shiloh had come (Matthew
> 2:1-3), were also very upset (for very different reasons), along
> with the monster, Herod the Great, and evidently collaborated with
> him, their otherwise hated enemy, to have Shiloh murdered at his
> hands (fulfilling Psa 2:1-3, as Acts 4 below shows). As they did 31
> years later, at Pilate's hands.
>

No, Shiloh did not come in Matthew 2:1-3, Jesus was born.

> It is alluded to also in Acts 4:25-27, and Psa. 2:1-3, which the Acts
> passage points to. These three passages seem to me to make the
> point beyond controversy --- but Nicodemus testifies to it also
> about 30 years later, in John 3, by his use of "we" in the 2nd verse.
> "HE CAME TO HIS OWN, AND HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT."
>

Also it is not Shiloh.

> When there are "problems" with a Divine Prophecy, experience always
> shows that there is great benefit in CAREFULLY looking at EXACTLY
> what the Prophecy says. This usually uncovers precision and detail
> making the Prophecy even more spectacular than otherwise. Here, the
> Prophecy was that the "Scepter would not depart from JUDAH . . ."
>

The virgin Mary is a descendend of king David who is from Judah. So with
Jesus Christ as a king the scepter is not past from Judah at all. So Siloh
has not yet come.

> But the first king did not come till hundreds of years later (Saul),
> and when he did come, he was not of Judah, but rather of Benjamin.
>
> But as to precision of the Prophecy, it was that the Scepter would
> not DEPART from Judah. Now any fifth grader can tell you that
> something cannot depart from somewhere until it is there in the
> first place!
>
> And the Scepter was not in the hands of Judah until the successor of
> Saul, David, came to the throne. THAT is the point from which the
> Prophecy must commence.
>
> Exit the first two "problems" with the Prophecy!
>
> Bob
> Christ Died to Save You
>

Which two problems?

Menno van Barneveld

[bwme...@toast.net]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:52:59 -0500 (CDT), "Menno van Barneveld"
<g.van.b...@hccnet.nl> wrote:

>
.. . .

>> There are some problems associated with this Divine Prophecy, as to
>> its fulfillment over the course of the following millenia. For one
>> thing, it ought to be a proof to any godly Believing Jew that the
>> Lord Jesus is that Messiah, since He fulfilled that Promise, among
>> many others that are even more easy to see.
>>
>> Because JUDAH LOST THE SCEPTER SHORTLY AFTER HIS
>>(SHILOH'S) BIRTH.
>
>Where is this described?
>

Immediately below your question: --->

>> The Jews of that time fully recognized that fact, when it was
>> recorded:
>>
>> *********************************************
>> The Talmud itself
>> admits that "a little more than forty years before the destruction
>> of the Temple (which would be around 30 AD), the power of pronouncing
>> capital sentences was taken away from the Jews."
>>
>> Rabbi Rachmon says, "When the members of the Sanhedrin found
>> themselves deprived of their right over life and death, a general
>> consternation took possession of them; they covered their heads with
>> ashes, and their bodies with sackcloth, exclaiming: `Woe unto us,
>> for the scepter has departed from Judah, and the Messiah has not
>> come!' "
>>
>> --- Evidence that Demands a Verdict, pp 168-169
>> *********************************************
>>

The word "Messiah" above refers to The Christ. Clearly Rabbi Rachmon
is assuming, as were the Sandhedrim, that "Shiloh" meant The Messiah,
which means the Christ. If you don't know that the Lord Jesus IS the
Christ, as you show below, there's no point in further conversation.

This is what I was saying --->

>> Thus, presumably the most knowledgeable Jews, of the Law, of that
>> time, admit that this Prophecy had been fulfilled, UP TO THAT TIME,
>> the objections of modern commentators and "scholars" notwithstanding.
>> Judah, up to then, in their minds, had never lost the Scepter, as
>> Jacob had Prophesied.
>>

And again:=20

*************************************************
until Shiloh come; which all the three Targums interpret of the
Messiah, as do many of the Jewish writers, ancient and modern {p}; and
is the name of the Messiah in their Talmud {q}, and in other writings
{r}; and well agrees with him, coming from a root which signifies to
be "quiet," "peaceable," and "prosperous"; as he was of a quiet and
peaceable disposition, came to make peace between God and men, and
made it by the blood of his cross, and gives spiritual peace to all
his followers, and brings them at length to everlasting peace and
happiness; having prospered and succeeded in the great work of their
redemption and salvation he undertook:
*************************************************
--- From John Gill on Genesis 49:10

>
>Luke 2:11-18 does not write about Shiloh and Jesus is no Shiloh at all.

************************************************
"For unto you is born this day in the City of David (Bethlehem) a
Saviour (referring to the Lord Jesus, "thou shalt call His Name Jesus,
for He shall save His People from their sins"), Who is also The Christ
(that is, the Messiah, and Shiloh), and Who is also the Lord (God
Himself) (The One Whom Micah 5:2 says is from Eternity).=20
************************************************
--- Luke 2:11 --- We still hear it quoted every Christmas Time. =20

>>

Here is John Gill's word on the same passage: --->

**********************************************
Which is Christ the Lord; the Messiah [or Shiloh] spoken of by the
prophets; the anointed of the Lord, with the Holy Ghost without
measure, to be a prophet, priest, and king in his church; and who is
the true Jehovah, the Lord our righteousness, the Lord of all
creatures, the Lord of angels, good and bad, the Lord of all men, as
Creator, the Prince of the kings of the earth, the Lord of lords, and
King of kings; and who is particularly the Lord of saints by his
Father=92s gift, his own purchase, the espousal of them to himself, and
by the power of his grace upon them: and the birth of such a person
must needs be joyful, and is to be accounted good news, and glad
tidings.=20
***********************************************

>>
>> Bob
>> Christ Died to Save You
>>
>Which two problems?

The problem you have, above. If you don't believe in Him, you will die
in your sins. And that is a terrible problem. John 3:36, 8:24.

>
>Menno van Barneveld=20
>

Bob

[Menno van Barneveld]

Dear Bob,

<bwme...@toast.net> wrote in item
news:3D4F329A-C56D-B6C2...@art.srcbs.org...

Shiloh does not mean Messiah but is a name.
Shiloh is not Jesus Christ our lord.
In the Bible not anywhere is stated that Shihloh is the Messiah.

Menno.