Afterlife and salvation
Robert Little
Baha'u'llah teaches, as you have no doubt already read here, that human life
is eternal, so that "death" is tantamount to a change of status, rather than
an end of life.
In this world, Baha'u'llah writes, humans progress via the medium of free
will. We are given choice, and we choose. We progress based upon effort, we
feel pain and joy as a result of our actions and decisions, and the actions
and decisions of others.
Upon our death, as I understand it, we leave behind our free will as well as
our physical existence, and we will progress from that point on at the mercy
of God. I take this to mean that whereas here we ascend based upon our
choices, in the next life we will not have the ability to choose. I
interpret this to mean that in this world, our choices lead to the
perfection of our character, and our station, or closeness to God, in both
this world and in the next. If we choose to lie and steal and hate here, we
will be in a state of hell there, for we cannot do these things there. In
that life, the spiritual laws are the laws that govern that existence, as
the physical laws govern existence here. We cannot disobey physical laws in
this physical world, and will not be able to disobey the spiritual laws
there, that we routinely break here.
My interpretations, please understand.
Robert A. Little
"Jon" <h...@nettaxi.com> wrote in message
news:DUJAQ.A....@bounty.bcca.org...
> hi
> Does Baha'i teach that one will be resurrected after they die, if they
don't
> get into heaven? Otherwise, what happens to you after you die if you
don't
> get into heaven?
>
> thanks
>
>
Suzanne Gerstner
>
> Interesting! Your description of the afterlife using
> our Holy Scriptures matches the Roman Catholic (R.C.)
> description using only different images. Regarding
> the part about gradually coming closer to God,
> Catholics call it Purgatory, meaning one can purge
> away one's obstacles to encountering God during the
> time spent in that state. It seems clear on both
> sides that one can continue to improve oneself and
> gradually cleanse all the dross away.
Dear Winne,
I think this makes a lot of sense. It's hard to imagine a loving Creator
who would consign a soul (His own creation) to eternal punishment without
any chance of their making amends and trying to improve their lot. I've
read that the Zoroastrians believe that hell is just temporary, and that the
fires of hell are in order to purify the soul and not so much as punishment.
There is a dream of 'Abdu'l-Baha which is recorded in Memorials to the
Faithful which I find to be interesting. It's about a believer who passed
away, and 'Abdu'l-Baha talking to him in the next world. What interests me
is that at the end He explains what teaching is in the next world, which
means, it would seem, that there *is* teaching in the next world. Here's
the dream:
"One night, not long ago, I saw him in the world of dreams. Although his
frame had always been massive, in the dream world he appeared larger and
more corpulent than ever. It seemed as if he had returned from a journey.
I said to him, "Jinab, you have grown good and stout." "Yes," he answered,
"praise be to God! I have been in places where the air was fresh and sweet,
and the water crystal pure; the landscapes were beautiful to look upon, the
foods delectable. It all agreed with me, of course, so I am stronger than
ever now, and I have recovered the zest of my early youth. The breaths of
the All-Merciful blew over me and all my time was spent in telling of God.
I have been setting forth His proofs, and teaching His Faith." (The meaning
of teaching the Faith in the next world is spreading the sweet savors of
holiness; that action is the same as teaching.)..."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Memorials of the Faithful, Page: 12)
I think that this description of teaching is applicable to this world as
well, since spiritually speaking, that's what happens when souls teach in
the right way with the assistance of the Holy Spirit and the Concourse on
High. And this sort of teaching brings about the transformation of souls,
and ultimately the whole world of humanity -- both in this world and the
next.
> >From my own native American traditions, there is no
> hell, and eventually everybody will be reunited in the
> Happy Hunting Grounds living the traditional life at
> its best.
This sounds like true paradise, since I think it's hard to be completely
happy knowing that others (perhaps our loved ones) are suffering eternally.
Warmest regards,
Suzanne
Bruce Burrill
>Upon our death, as I understand it, we leave behind our free will as well as
>our physical existence, and we will progress from that point on at the mercy
>of God.
Can you quote texts to support this?
john haukness
Robin Williams I think the movie very well captures the Baha'i essance. Even
though Robin had to go to hell to retreive Annabel, and the Baha'i Faith
doesn't have much of a hell, but Bahaullah does use the term a few times as
Gary Matthews brings to our attention, still the movies trip to hell, as the
lover get's rescued from it, it thus does not become an eternal place. What
I liked that to me mirrors the Baha'i Writings, is that at the beginning of
the movie, they instantly find each other as soul mates, and later an angel,
Cuba Gooding, tells them that's very rare on earth. But that set's up the
stage of the two lovers to traverse all the stages, heaven and hell and find
each other and remain true to each other. For it's when Robin tells the
angels to go away, he's staying in hell with his wife, that is like the
prince kiss of the frog and that declaration is what frees the wife from
hell and they both end up back in heaven.
It's a love without any boundaries. Bahaullah in the Seven Valleys mentions
love in the later Valleys in an impediment, that in the end, utter
nothingness, and submission are more important. So, the soul mates who
transend everything in What Dreams May Come, end up with nothing ness just
prior to the end and with their nothingness resignation, they are
transformed into heaven. And Bahaullah has a Writing about soul mates being
together in the afterlife. Which is one of the most profound. au revoir j
-----Original Message-----
From: Winona Lineberger <winnie...@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
To: bahai...@bcca.org <bahai...@bcca.org>
Date: Thursday, January 03, 2002 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: Afterlife and salvation
>Dear Suzanne,
>
>Interesting! Your description of the afterlife using
>our Holy Scriptures matches the Roman Catholic (R.C.)
>description using only different images. Regarding
>the part about gradually coming closer to God,
>Catholics call it Purgatory, meaning one can purge
>away one's obstacles to encountering God during the
>time spent in that state. It seems clear on both
>sides that one can continue to improve oneself and
>gradually cleanse all the dross away. Dante gave the
>definitive image of Purgatory to the Church in his
>Commedia Divina, (Il Purgatorio). Totally
>nonbiblical, yet it echoes the hope of other major
>religions as well. Don't Hindu and Buddhist belief
>systems also include the possibility of gradual
>improvement through the cycles of reincarnation until
>one becomes an Avatar and reaches Nirvana?
>
>>From my own native American traditions, there is no
>hell, and eventually everybody will be reunited in the
>Happy Hunting Grounds living the traditional life at
>its best. But not everyone will enjoy the same
>status, so I intuit a chance for growth and perfection
>there too.
>
>Hope is such a wonderful virtue!
>
>Winnie
>
>--- Suzanne Gerstner <suzanne....@ntlworld.com>
>wrote:
>> > hi
>> > Does Baha'i teach that one will be resurrected
>> after they die, if they
>> don't
>> > get into heaven? Otherwise, what happens to you
>> after you die if you
>> don't
>> > get into heaven?
>> >
>> > thanks
>>
>>
>> Hi Jon,
>>
>> The Baha'i Writings teach that we all live eternally
>> after death, but we
>> don't all have the same sort of reception or life in
>> the next world. The
>> quality of our afterlife (as the quality of our life
>> in this world) is
>> dependent on our relationship with God. Heaven, in
>> our Faith, is not a
>> place, but is defined as the state of "nearness to
>> God", and this is true in
>> this world and in the next:
>>
>> "For those who believe in God, who have love of God,
>> and faith, life is
>> excellent - that is, it is eternal; but to those
>> souls who are veiled from
>> God, although they have life, it is dark, and in
>> comparison with the life of
>> believers it is nonexistence.
>> For example, the eye and the nail are living;
>> but the life of the nail
>> in relation to the life of the eye is nonexistent...
>> In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God,
>> although they exist in
>> this world and in the world after death, are, in
>> comparison with the holy
>> existence of the children of the Kingdom of God,
>> nonexisting and separated
>> from God."
>> (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 243)
>>
>> But separation from God isn't necessarily something
>> which is "eternal". Our
>> Writings also teach that people in the next world
>> can be changed, and grow
>> closer to God:
>>
>> "It is even possible that the condition of those
>> who have died in sin and
>> unbelief may become changed - that is to say, they
>> may become the object of
>> pardon through the bounty of God, not through His
>> justice - for bounty is
>> giving without desert, and justice is giving what is
>> deserved. As we have
>> power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we
>> shall possess the same
>> power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of
>> God. Are not all the
>> people in that world the creatures of God?
>> Therefore, in that world also
>> they can make progress. As here they can receive
>> light by their
>> supplications, there also they can plead for
>> forgiveness and receive light
>> through entreaties and supplications..."
>> (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 232)
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Suzanne
>>
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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>
Bruce Burrill
>Baha'u'llah taught that life and death are actually spiritual
>qualities. Everyone continues to exist after death, but existence for
>some will be gloomy and dismal. Everyone will retain (or re-acquire)
>reasoning power and memory.
Can we act badly in the afterlife? Do we have ethical choice after we die?
Suzanne Gerstner
> Can we act badly in the afterlife? Do we have ethical choice after we die?
Dear Bruce,
I believe that from a Baha'i point of view the answer would be no for a
number of reasons. Firstly, 'Abdu'l-Baha compares the life in this world
to the life of the fetus in the womb of the mother. In that world the baby
develops all the things it needs to succeed and make good progress in this
world. It doesn't need eyes, ears, a nose, a mouth, limbs or a brain in the
womb world but it develops them because it will need them here. If it
doesn't develop these things it will be handicapped. He said that we should
be developing the limbs and members we will need in the next world. The
limbs and members we will need there are our spiritual qualities. We need
to develop love, compassion, kindness to others, wisdom, sincerity,
trustworthiness, truthfulness, etc. If we don't develop virtues in this
world, we will be handicapped when we are born into the spiritual world.
Secondly, 'Abdu'l-Baha explained that "evil" has no real existence of its
own. "Error is a lack of guidance; darkness is absence of light; ignorance
is lack of knowledge; falsehoood is lack of truthfulness; blindness is lack
of sight; and deafness is lack of hearing. Therefore, error, blindness,
deafness and ignorance are nonexistent things."
That which doesn't exist won't go with you to the next world. If you have
developed virtues, they'll go with you, but if you haven't developed them
you will have their lack, but you won't have the negative quality since it
doesn't really exist. This becomes a weakness and a handicap, but not
anything which can do harm to others.
And finally, I don't think anyone would choose to act badly in the next
world, because the next world is the "world of vision." 'Abdu'l-Baha says:
"The mysteries of which man is heedless in this earthly world, those he will
discover in the heavenly world, and there will he be informed of the secret
of truth;" (Baha'i World Faith*, Page: 367) One reason that people go
astray in this world is because they are veiled from the truth, and think
their advantage is in the disadvantage of another. Anyone with spiritual
insight knows this is wrong; and in that world they will know it too. They
*couldn't* choose to harm another soul, since this would be a great evil to
themselves.
I think that free will -- the ability to choose between good and evil -- is
only in this world because this world *has* both good and evil. The next
world doesn't. It isn't a world of dualities. There will be other
challenges and opportunities to advance there; but they won't be the same
ones as in this world. However, according to 'Abdu'l-Baha, a soul *can*
initiate his own spiritual advancement there, and they *can* communicate
with others and pray for other souls, so it would seem that they do have
will to choose, but not the free will to choose to do evil. They wouldn't
want to.
Anyway, that's my understanding.
Kind regards,
Suzanne
cbre...@northlink.com
"The progress of man's spirit in the divine world, after the severance
of its connection with the body of dust, is through the bounty and
grace of the Lord alone, or through the intercession and the sincere
prayers of other human souls, or through the charities and
important good works which are performed in its name." Some
Answered Questions, chapter 66. (The Existence of the Rational
Soul After the Death of the Body)
Robert Little
> Hi Bruce
>
> It is my understanding that free will is our medium of change and progress
> in this world, and only in this world. We will continue progress
> afterwards - apparently change is a law in all the worlds of God - but
that
> progress will be effected differently.
>
> Apparently, prayers of those in that world, and in this world, have power
to
> aid in our progress, and this raises an interesting question: is prayer an
> act of volition? Perhaps prayer is an acquired attribute, such as purity,
> and must be practiced diligently and sincerely over a period of time to
> become something other than a choice, to become part of our character.
>
> I'll look for the quotes you ask for and get back in the next day or two.
>
> Robert A. Little
>
> "Bruce Burrill" <brb...@mailbag.com> wrote in message
> news:s9GGXC.A....@bounty.bcca.org...
> > At 05:29 PM 1/3/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Baha'u'llah taught that life and death are actually spiritual
> > >qualities. Everyone continues to exist after death, but existence for
> > >some will be gloomy and dismal. Everyone will retain (or re-acquire)
> > >reasoning power and memory.
> >
Suzanne Gerstner
> > > >Upon our death, as I understand it, we leave behind our free will
> > as
> > > >well as our physical existence, and we will progress from that
> > point
> > > >on at the mercy of God.
> > >
> > >
> > > Can you quote texts to support this?
> >
> > "The progress of man's spirit in the divine world, after the severance
> > of its connection with the body of dust, is through the bounty and
> > grace of the Lord alone, or through the intercession and the sincere
> > prayers of other human souls, or through the charities and
> > important good works which are performed in its name." Some
> > Answered Questions, chapter 66. (The Existence of the Rational
> > Soul After the Death of the Body)
>
will
> in the next world. I think it's an interpretation which has become common
> among Baha'is based on the quote you cite. Of course it's not a physical
> world, and so a soul can't progress based on good deeds, but here's
another
> quote from the same book, which ends by saying that the person can plead
for
> forgiveness and light:
>
> "It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and
> unbelief may become changed - that is to say, they may become the object
of
> pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice - for bounty is
> giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have
> power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same
> power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God. Are not all the
> people in that world the creatures of God? Therefore, in that world also
> they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their
> supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness and receive light
> through entreaties and supplications..."
> (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 232)
>
of
> independent thinking, will and the possibility to make choices. The next
> world is as different from this world, we are told, as this world is from
> the child in the womb. It will certainly have properties, attributes and
> goals which we know nothing about. We can't really imagine what it will
be
> like, and if we try, then we are undoubtedly wrong. We can infer things
> from quotes, but still that's just sketchy at best, and doesn't tell us
what
> it will really be like for souls in the next world.
>
> I think it's important for us to make use of our lives in this world, the
> physical classroom, and not let opportunities go. We should live our lives
> in awareness of the fact that we do go on and it's important to our future
> life that we develop our spiritual qualities and live a life which
benefits
> ourselves and others; and strive to draw near to God. But as for other
> souls in the next world, I don't know what their lives will be like.
> However, if this world is a reflection of the divine world, then I can't
> imagine that it will be a world where individuals lack will to act and to
> progress. They may lack the possibility of choosing between good and evil
> since there is no evil there. And they make lack the ability to do "good
> works" since there is no physical reality. But they will have will to do
> something -- whatever it is that is important for them to do in that
world.
> And assistance from God is vital in this world as well! We can't progress
> without it.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Suzanne
>
>
S.G. Cawe
Dear Susan
I find your response to Burril quite interesting, but I do not quite feel
at home with it. Of course none of us really know our fate in the
hereafter, but I get the impression that we will retain some sort of will
as the following passages seem to imply:
Know that nothing which exists remains in a state of repose - that is to
say, all things are in motion. Everything is either growing or declining;
all things are either coming from nonexistence into being, or going from
existence into nonexistence. So this flower, this hyacinth, during a
certain period of time was coming from the world of nonexistence into
being, and now it is going from being into nonexistence. This state of
motion is said to be essential - that is, natural; it cannot be separated
from beings because it is their essential requirement, as it is the
essential requirement of fire to burn.
Thus it is established that this movement is necessary to existence,
which is either growing or declining. Now, as the spirit continues to
exist after death, it necessarily progresses or declines; and in the other
world to cease to progress is the same as to decline; but it never leaves
its own condition, in which it continues to develop.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 233)
Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in
perfection but not in state.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 237)
The personality of the rational soul is from its beginning; it is not due
to the instrumentality of the body, but the state and the personality of
the rational soul may be strengthened in this world; it will make progress
and will attain to the degrees of perfection, or it will remain in the
lowest abyss of ignorance, veiled and deprived from beholding the signs of
God.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 240)
I seem to be noticing BOTH the possibility of progress (by the grace of
God, etc) and the possibility of separation. The instrumentality of God's
grace and bounty necessary in the progress of the soul in the hereafter
might well be an absolute "free gift" or it might be conditional as in:
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no
wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
(Baha'u'llah: Arabic Hidden Words, Page: 5).
To me the above suggests that some act of will is necessary on my part to
access God's love. I suspect it is the same in the hereafter.
My take on evil is informed by the following:
"We know absence of light is darkness, but no one would assert darkness
was not a fact. It exists even though it is only the absence of something
else. So evil exists too, and we cannot close our eyes to it, even though
it is a negative existence. We must seek to supplant it by good, and if we
see an evil person is not influenceable by us, then we should shun his
company for it is unhealthy.
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 404)
"Regarding your question as to the meaning of Jin or Genii referred to in
the Qur'an, these are not beings or creatures that are actually living, but
are symbolic references to the power of men of evil and may be likened to
evil spirits. But the point to bear in mind is that these have no positive
existence of any kind."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 498)
"Baha'is recognize that evil is negative and has no existence in its own
right, but that does not mean that there is no power in evil. Do not
Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha warn us repeatedly of the spiritual infection
of Covenant-breaking?
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 521).
Kindest regards
Sizwe.
-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne Gerstner [SMTP:suzanne....@ntlworld.com]
Sent: 06 January 2002 01:41
To: bahai...@bcca.org
Subject: Re: Afterlife and salvation
Bruce Burrill wrote:
> Can we act badly in the afterlife? Do we have ethical choice after we
die?
Dear Bruce,
Suzanne Gerstner
> at home with it. Of course none of us really know our fate in the
> hereafter, but I get the impression that we will retain some sort of will
> as the following passages seem to imply:
Dear Sizwe,
Either you have mistaken my meaning or I have mistaken yours, since I'm not
sure what you are disagreeing with in my posting. I too believe we will
retain some sort of will in the next world. In fact, the posting you are
responding to ends with this sentence:
>However, according to 'Abdu'l-Baha, a soul *can*
> initiate his own spiritual advancement there, and they *can* communicate
> with others and pray for other souls, so it would seem that they do have
> will to choose, but not the free will to choose to do evil. They wouldn't
> want to.
I also believe we have the possibility to progress after death. In fact I
agree with all the points you made. One of the passages I love from
Gleanings is this one which modifies the passage about a tree without fruit
being fit for the fire:
"Consider, moreover, how the fruit, ere it is formed, lieth potentially
within the tree. Were the tree to be cut into pieces, no sign nor any part
of the fruit, however small, could be detected. When it appeareth, however,
it manifesteth itself, as thou hast observed, in its wondrous beauty and
glorious perfection. Certain fruits, indeed, attain their fullest
development only after being severed from the tree."
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 155)
There's always hope for progress, and, as I stated in another posting in
this thread, 'Abdu'l-Baha says that a soul can initiate his own salvation in
the next world through prayer:
"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and
unbelief may become changed - that is to say, they may become the object of
pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice - for bounty is
giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have
power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same
power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God. Are not all the
people in that world the creatures of God? Therefore, in that world also
they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their
supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness and receive light
through entreaties and supplications..."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 232)
The only thing I am not quite sure about is your take on evil in the next
world. What do you deduce from the two quotes you cited? Do you think
there is evil in the next world? Do you think the second quote relates to
the next world?
"Regarding your question as to the meaning of Jin or Genii referred to in
the Qur'an, these are not beings or creatures that are actually living, but
are symbolic references to the power of men of evil and may be likened to
evil spirits. But the point to bear in mind is that these have no positive
existence of any kind."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 498)
"Baha'is recognize that evil is negative and has no existence in its own
right, but that does not mean that there is no power in evil. Do not
Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha warn us repeatedly of the spiritual infection
of Covenant-breaking?
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 521).
Kind regards,
Suzanne
dmcadam
Dear friends-
How does this quote relate to your conclusions?
( nn ) The progress of man's spirit in the divine world, after the
severance of its connection with the body of dust, is through the bounty
and grace of the Lord alone, or through the intercession and the sincere
prayers of other human souls, or through the charities and important good
works which are performed in its name. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered
Questions, Page: 240)
I noticed primarily the phrase "...is through the bounty and grace of the
Lord alone...
warmly,
doug
Sizwe Cawe
Dear Susan
Your initial response to Bruce Burril's questions:
> Can we act badly in the afterlife? Do we have ethical choice after we die?
was as follows:
=====BEGIN QUOTE====
"Dear Bruce,
I believe that from a Baha'i point of view the answer would be no for a
number of reasons. Firstly, 'Abdu'l-Baha compares the life in this world
to the life of the fetus in the womb of the mother. In that world the baby
develops all the things it needs to succeed and make good progress in this
world. It doesn't need eyes, ears, a nose, a mouth, limbs or a brain in the
womb world but it develops them because it will need them here. If it
doesn't develop these things it will be handicapped. He said that we should
be developing the limbs and members we will need in the next world. The
limbs and members we will need there are our spiritual qualities. We need
to develop love, compassion, kindness to others, wisdom, sincerity,
trustworthiness, truthfulness, etc. If we don't develop virtues in this
world, we will be handicapped when we are born into the spiritual world.
Secondly, 'Abdu'l-Baha explained that "evil" has no real existence of its
own. "Error is a lack of guidance; darkness is absence of light; ignorance
is lack of knowledge; falsehood is lack of truthfulness; blindness is lack
of sight; and deafness is lack of hearing. Therefore, error, blindness,
deafness and ignorance are nonexistent things."
That which doesn't exist won't go with you to the next world. If you have
developed virtues, they'll go with you, but if you haven't developed them
you will have their lack, but you won't have the negative quality since it
doesn't really exist. This becomes a weakness and a handicap, but not
anything which can do harm to others.
And finally, I don't think anyone would choose to act badly in the next
world, because the next world is the "world of vision." 'Abdu'l-Baha says:
"The mysteries of which man is heedless in this earthly world, those he will
discover in the heavenly world, and there will he be informed of the secret
of truth;" (Baha'i World Faith*, Page: 367) One reason that people go
astray in this world is because they are veiled from the truth, and think
their advantage is in the disadvantage of another. Anyone with spiritual
insight knows this is wrong; and in that world they will know it too. They
*couldn't* choose to harm another soul, since this would be a great evil to
themselves.
I think that free will -- the ability to choose between good and evil -- is
only in this world because this world *has* both good and evil. The next
world doesn't. It isn't a world of dualities. There will be other
challenges and opportunities to advance there; but they won't be the same
ones as in this world. However, according to 'Abdu'l-Baha, a soul *can*
initiate his own spiritual advancement there, and they *can* communicate
with others and pray for other souls, so it would seem that they do have
will to choose, but not the free will to choose to do evil. They wouldn't
want to.
Anyway, that's my understanding.
Kind regards,
Suzanne"
======END QUOTE====
I understand you to be saying no to both questions posed by Burril, i.e., we
can neither act badly in the afterlife nor do we have ethical choice after
we die. I have problems with both those propositions. I think we can act
badly in the afterlife (i.e. be remote from God) and we do have ethical
choices. I am not persuaded that mere knowledge of the consequences of
acting badly would necessarily restrain us in the afterlife any more than it
does on this plane of existence.
You further asked:
"The only thing I am not quite sure about is your take on evil in the next
world. What do you deduce from the two quotes you cited? Do you think
there is evil in the next world? Do you think the second quote relates to
the next world?"
I think evil does exist in the afterlife: remoteness from God constitutes
"evil" as much in the afterlife as it does on this plane. I am aware that
according to our Writings the spirits of the departed cannot cause us harm
on this plane, but I do not know if they cannot cause harm in the other
world. I speculate that they can.
Kindest regards
Sizwe Cawe.
Margaret Bristol
I REALLY like your explanation here. :-)
Tying in the idea of the nonexistence of evil (because it's simply the
absence of good) and hence the nonexistence of evil in the spiritual realm
really helps me understand both concepts (relation of evil to good and
conditions in the next life) much more clearly.
And I think that what Robert Little said at the ends of his post ties
right in:
>We cannot disobey physical laws in
>this physical world, and will not be able to disobey the spiritual laws
>there, that we routinely break here.
Hence one will be unable to "choose" to disobey spiritual laws in the
spiritual realm (i.e., choose to behave unethically) just as do not have
the choice to disobey the laws of physics in the physical realm.
I think I finally understand this now.
peace,
m
Suzanne Gerstner
> I think evil does exist in the afterlife: remoteness from God constitutes
> "evil" as much in the afterlife as it does on this plane.
Dear Sizwe,
I thought that "remoteness from God" is the Baha'i definition of hell. Not
evil. As to "evil", 'Abdu'l-Baha wrote that it doesn't exist as a real
force. Speaking of the nonexistence of evil, 'Abdu'l-Baha writes;
"Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and
admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply
their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the
want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want
of good sense. All these things have no real existence...
Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists;
evil is nonexistent.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 264)
How do you understand the above passage in relation to the spiritual realm;
the realm where spiritual qualities, according to 'Abdu'l-Baha, make up our
"limbs and members"?
I am aware that
> according to our Writings the spirits of the departed cannot cause us harm
> on this plane, but I do not know if they cannot cause harm in the other
> world. I speculate that they can.
Yes. I have read this as well. I can't find the passage or I would have
quoted it.
What are the quotes from the Baha'i Writings which make you speculate that
souls can harm each other in the next world? The fact that remoteness from
God also exists there, or is it something else?
Kind regards,
Suzanne
Sizwe Cawe
We may well be in pursuit of the will-o-the-wisp here. Be that as it may, it
is my understanding of the Covenant that Shoghi Effendi, and not
Abdu'l-Baha, has the last word. In respect of evil Shoghi effendi has
written:
"We know absence of light is darkness, but no one would assert darkness was
not a fact. It exists even though it is only the absence of something else.
So evil exists too, and we cannot close our eyes to it, even though it is a
negative existence. We must seek to supplant it by good, and if we see an
evil person is not influenceable by us, then we should shun his company for
it is unhealthy.
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 404).
He further states:
"In regard to your question concerning evil spirits and their influence
upon souls, Shoghi Effendi wishes me to inform you that what is generally
called evil spirit is a purely imaginary creation and has no reality
whatever. But as to evil, there is no doubt that it exerts a very strong
influence both in this world and in the next. Abdu'l-Baha in the `Some
Answered Questions' gives us a thorough and true analysis of the problem of
evil. You should preferably refer to that book for further explanation on
that point."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual
believer, November 1, 1934)
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Pages: 522-523).
>From the passage above it looks as if I have not misunderstood the Master
too badly. The condition of being remote from God in the afterlife (as on
this plane) suggests that the possibility of a soul doing harm to itself or
to other souls exists. The above excerpt seems to suggest this also. Apart
from this, I honestly cannot see the point of acquiring virtues on this
plane if in the final analysis all will be virtuous, anyway. In this regard
the following comments seem pertinent:
"To make it plainer for you, if there were no wealth in the world, you would
not have poverty. If there were no light in the world, you could not
conceive of darkness, for we know things philosophically by their
antitheses. We know, for example, that poverty is the lack of wealth.
Where there is no knowledge, there is no ignorance. What is ignorance? It
is the absence of knowledge.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 425)"
Concerning evil and remoteness from God, I think one is remote from God when
one says, does or thinks evil things - things devoid of virtue. In that
state one could be said to be "in hell". I do not find a contradiction;
neither am I able to unscramble the two.
Regarding "limbs and members" I suppose Abdu'l-Baha was conveying the idea
that without these divine qualities we will be "disabled" in the afterlife -
like one without limbs. Incidentally, our Baha'i Centre is next to a home
for the disabled. One of the residents of that home lost both her legs and
both her arms in a train accident. Life is not very easy for her, but she is
a wonderful soul.
In the final analysis, we really do not understand these things ....
Kindest regards
Sizwe.
-----Original Message-----