unknown
John Walker
Dear Ayse,
It is simple in my opinion.
You independently investigate, but when or if you determine to the best of
your ability that Baha'u'llah is the mesenger from God who claims our
obedience, then we obey.
We are still free to and enjoined to investigate reality as He has bidden us
do, but there are some things he encourages us to do, such as teach His
Faith, some he forbids us, such as adultery. So there is freedom within the
Faith , but it is limited, because He says there are some things we should
not do (vast majority of these make a lot of sense). Some we must take on
faith. Children make mistakes and should listen to the parent. That is the
way I see the relationship.
Best wishes in your search.
John Walker
John Walker
----- Original Message -----
From: <ul...@linkage.rockefeller.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
To: <bahai...@bcca.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 10:01 AM
Subject: unknown
>
> Dear friends,
>
> Can someone please explain to me the meaning of the Bahai
> principle of independent investigation of truth and its relationship
> to the complete obedience to the teachings?
>
>
> thanks,
> Ayse
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Susan Maneck
>Can someone please explain to me the meaning of the Bahai
>principle of independent investigation of truth and its relationship
>to the complete obedience to the teachings?
Dear Ayse,
Independent investigation of truth certainly involves more than simply
determing who the Manifestation is, it continues long after one becomes a
Baha'i. But searching for the truth does not absolve one from following the
rules. A few years ago the House sent me a letter which dwelt for a long
time
on issues such as conscience, the search for the truth and obedience. You
might
be interested in reading part of it.
" As you well understand, not only the right but also the responsibility of
each believer to explore truth for himself or herself are fundamental to the
Baha'i teachings. This principle is an integral feature of the coming of age
of
humankind, inseparable from the social transformation to which Baha'u'llah
is
calling the peoples of the world. It is as relevant to specifically
scholarly
activity as it is to the rest of spiritual and intellectual life. Every
human
being is ultimately responsible to God for the use which he or she makes of
these possibilities; conscience is never to be coerced, whether by other
individuals or institutions.
Conscience, however, is not an unchangeable absolute. One dictionary
definition, although not covering all the usages of the term, presents the
common understanding of the word "conscience" as "the sense of right and
wrong
as regards things for which one is responsible; the faculty or principle
which
pronounces upon the moral quality of one's actions or motives, approving the
right and condemning the wrong".
The functioning of one's conscience, then, depends upon one's
understanding
of right and wrong; the conscience of one person may be established upon a
disinterested striving after truth and justice, while that of another may
rest
on an unthinking predisposition to act in accordance with that pattern of
standards, principles and prohibitions which is a product of his social
environment. Conscience, therefore, can serve either as a bulwark of an
upright
character or can represent an accumulation of prejudices learned from one's
forebears or absorbed from a limited social code.
A Baha'i recognizes that one aspect of his spiritual and intellectual
growth is to foster the development of his conscience in the light of divine
Revelation -- a Revelation which, in addition to providing a wealth of
spiritual and ethical principles, exhorts man "to free himself from idle
fancy
and imitation, discern with the eye of oneness His glorious handiwork, and
look
into all things with a searching eye". This process of development,
therefore,
involves a clear-sighted examination of the conditions of the world with
both
heart and mind. A Baha'i will understand that an upright life is based upon
observance of certain principles which stem from Divine Revelation and which
he
recognizes as essential for the well-being of both the individual and
society.
In order to uphold such principles, he knows that, in certain cases, the
voluntary submission of the promptings of his own personal conscience to the
decision of the majority is a conscientious requirement, as in
wholeheartedly
accepting the majority decision of an Assembly at the outcome of
consultation.
In the discussion of wisdom in your email of 21 September 1997, you
observe
that maybe "Baha'i academics all too often have not recognized that to a
great
extent failure to exercise wisdom represents a failure of love." The House
of
Justice agrees that the exercise of wisdom calls for a measure of love and
the
development of a sensitive conscience. These, in turn, involve not only
devotion to a high standard of uprightness, but also consideration of the
effects of one's words and actions.
A Baha'i's duty to pursue an unfettered search after truth should lead
him
to understand the Teachings as an organic, logically coherent whole, should
cause him to examine his own ideas and motives, and should enable him to see
that adherence to the Covenant, to which he is a party, is not blind
imitation
but conscious choice, freely made and freely followed."
The full text along with the letters I wrote them can be found here:
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/House_letter_academic_methodologies.html
warmest,
warmest, Susan
Susan Maneck
Associate Professor of History
Jackson State University
"And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time
left to start again . . "
Don McLean's American Pie
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
janine van rooij
I read those replies from the Universal House of Justice to your questions
since the answers were so much putting into words what I felt within myself.
I never was satisfied with the more commonly heard answer that investigation
of the truth referred to recognising the Manifestation of this day and once
you recognised Him you just had to be obedient. I thought it was because I
always need to be given a for me valid reason why I should obey rules.
Whenever I think about it I felt that asking questions is a phenomenon of
human nature. If nobody had asked questions we probably still would be
living like apes, as questions lead to experiment and inventions. But it can
be tricky, as our ancestors tried to tell us by the allegory of Adam and Eve
and they being expelled from paradise after eating from the fruits of the
tree of knowledge. Experimenting and questioning can lead you astray. I find
prayers for protection and spiritual growth very helpful when I am trying to
gain insight into the why's and wherefores of the teachings of the bahai
faith.
janine van rooij
dublin, ireland
> A Baha'i recognizes that one aspect of his spiritual and intellectual
>growth is to foster the development of his conscience in the light of
>divine
>Revelation -- a Revelation which, in addition to providing a wealth of
>spiritual and ethical principles, exhorts man "to free himself from idle
>fancy
>and imitation, discern with the eye of oneness His glorious handiwork, and
>look
>into all things with a searching eye". This process of development,
>therefore,
>involves a clear-sighted examination of the conditions of the world with
>both
>heart and mind.
> A Baha'i's duty to pursue an unfettered search after truth should lead
>him
>to understand the Teachings as an organic, logically coherent whole, should
>cause him to examine his own ideas and motives, and should enable him to
>see
>that adherence to the Covenant, to which he is a party, is not blind
>imitation
>but conscious choice, freely made and freely followed."
>
>The full text along with the letters I wrote them can be found here:
>http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/House_letter_academic_methodologies.html
>
>warmest, Susan
>
>
>
>
>
>Susan Maneck
>Associate Professor of History
>Jackson State University
>
>"And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no
>time
>left to start again . . "
>Don McLean's American Pie
>http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
>
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
news
To: bahai...@bcca.org
From: Robin Baylor or Fred Capp
<cadr...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Baha'i webcast
>[Moderators Note: It is the policy of the moderators of
>Soc.religion.bahai that we do not publish "announcements"
>However, sometimes, somthing is just plain neat enough that
the
>mod-on-duty overrides the policy and posts it. Do not presume
>from this, that we will start posting all sorts of announcements,
>but this one is in fact, really really neat. - Mods. ]
><snipped>
I knew about the restrictions, that is why I sat on this for a month
before announcing it. I wanted to be certain that it would be the
right way to inform people. If there is any offence, for any reason,
about this from anybody, please direct it at me & not the
moderators.
Thank you.
& happy listening. ;{D>
--
Fredrick B. Capp
If communication were a strong point in this world,
Wal-mart would be selling maypoles by the million
& violence would be studied by professors as a quaint
historical conceit.
Thomas K. Dye
------- End of forwarded message -------
Susan Maneck
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject: Re: Christ in India
>It is about the 'missing' childhood years of Jesus life, saying that
He went
>to India as a child and learned many spiritual things there that He
then
>brought back to the Holy Land.
Dear Romanita,
My grandmother who was a Rosecrucian you to insist that Jesus
had gone to India
or someplace and learned all this knowledge during His childhood.If
one takes
seriously the notion of revelation there is no need to postulate and
outside
source for Jesus' knowledge. Nothing is easier and more tempting
than to
speculate what Jesus did with those 'lost' years. But in all likelihood
nothing
was written about them because there was nothing much to say. He
probably just
worked in His father's shop making tables and chairs.
>It also says that He survived the cross, went
>back to India, married and died there.
>
>There also seems to be a Muslim faction that supports this theory.
The Ahmadiyya sect believes this. Ahmadis believed that Jesus was
crucified on
the cross, though that he did not die there. Instead, they believed
that Jesus
was in a swoon, and then was revived in the cool of the night, and
later went
to the 10 lost tribes of Israel in Kashmir and Tibet, and died after
living a
long, full life, and was buried in Kashmir.
Most Muslims, btw, do not believe that Jesus was crucified at all.
But Baha'i
accept the crucifixtion.
> i have heard of 'notes' of Abdu'l Baha's that say Christ is buried in
>'The Holy Land'.
Yes, I heard something to the effect that His remains are
underneath the Church
of the Holy Sepulchre.
warmest, Susan
Susan Maneck
Associate Professor of History
Jackson State University
"And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space,
with no time
left to start again . . "
Don McLean's American Pie
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
------- End of forwarded message -------
news
Romanita saith:
>i have several friends (including Native American's and Christians)
>that have read the book Christ Lived in India and find it very
>interesting. They have asked me if i know of anything in the Baha'i
>Writings to either validate or dispute it.
>
>It is about the 'missing' childhood years of Jesus life, saying that
>He went to India as a child and learned many spiritual things there
>that He then brought back to the Holy Land. It also says that He
>survived the cross, went back to India, married and died there.
>
>There also seems to be a Muslim faction that supports this theory.
>i am looking for any difinitive Authoritative Baha'i scripture that
>clears this up. i have heard of 'notes' of Abdu'l Baha's that say
>Christ is buried in 'The Holy Land'.
Ooh boy! Jesus sure did get around as a kid. I've seen some (so
called) "authenticated" texts that promote the claim that He spent
much of His childhood in England studying with Druids. Apparently
He
was a guest of one Joseph of Aramethea (per one account) who
had some
interests in tin mines or something. Considering the difficulties
inherent in traveling during that epoch I find myself wondering about
how long He was in Israel for that famous dispute with the Temple
elders.
Of course, everybody wants to claim such a Personage as Jesus
for
themselves & if there is anything akin to a mystical tradition in a
region.... Why can't people just accept that His Message was Divine
in origin & not taught to Him by any worldly tradition?
I keep waiting for Him to show up in West Africa or Central
America.
(No! Wait! the Mormons claim that He came to Mexico once.)
>Any information that can be shared would be helpful. Thank you,
I personally don't believe that anybody will find any confirming
evidence for any such visits in the Baha'i writings; since I tend to
suspect that this was too much world travel for a simple carpenter,
living in Roman occupied territory, to be able to afford. Anybody
care to prove me wrong.
--
Fredrick B. Capp
If communication were a strong point in this world,
Wal-mart would be selling maypoles by the million
& violence would be studied by professors as a quaint
historical conceit.
Thomas K. Dye
------- End of forwarded message -------
news
>Regarding myself, my family , and the Assembly in question.
>
>Members of the Assembly called our friends, demanded that they
listen
>to all charges against my husband. ( Which were all fabrications. )
<<Gong!>> Why? What matter would it be to anybody who is not
immediately involved? If any of the members of our LSA were to try
that (outside of a specially formed committee) they'd get more than
their hands slapped. In fact, somebody once did.
>Members of the Assembly in question visited members of our
community
>brought with them letters which had been written about my
husband and
>DEMANDED that community members read the letters.
<<GONG!>> Repetition of earlier questions...
>When people refused the Assembly in question wrote to the NSA
and
>reported that
>many community members were not abiding with directives from
an
>LSA.
& I believe that the community members in question were, in this
instance, in the right of it. Extenuating circumstances may exist,
but I can't see any in the story as told. Was there a special
committee formed to investigate the claims & counter-claims?
>I was always lead to believe that an Assembly is only an Assembly
when
>9 members are present, and that INDIVIDUALS are just that. The
>members of the Assembly in question acted very badly.
Yes, yes & yes.
>Indeed it seemed to be only one or two people who were members
of
>the Assembly that had a vendeta against our family. But the
results were
>the same.
This is where your appeal to a higher authority might have saved
things. This is also where such an appeal might have gotten even
messier. Depends on the personalities involved. Still, the appeal to
higher authority would have been in order.
True story, an Assembly (which a dear friend of mine lived near)
once voted to support a political candidate. The local ABM was
apparently unaware of this until one of the dissenting members of
the
Assembly brought it to his attention. Guess the ending.
>Because this particular Assembly is made up of LONG TIME
Bahai's who
>have ties to the NSA, people in our area bow to their opinions.
<<Gong!>> Such affiliations and histories should have no bearing
on
the facts. ref: John Mason Remey.
>Things like this cause the Faith to be looked at in the wrong way.
>Our 19 year old son, who was raised in the Faith has turned away,
>feeling that the Faith has become cult like. Our Daughter who at
the
>time was 21 and a declared Bahai was deeply hurt by these
actions and
>felt that the people from the community and Assembly in question
were
>acting like they were conducting a "witch hunt".
Is your daughter still a Baha'i? If so then I say "more power to her"
& "Learn from their mistakes." If not, then I am *truly* sorry for
the individuals responsible.
>All because a very clever woman who hadn't been able to lead my
>husband away decided to ruin our lives.
Lord save us from clever people!
I can't help but wonder though, is her life any better for the
experience?
> It was done with a vengance,
>she looked into personal files at my husbands palce on
employment,
>discovered that he was a member of the Bahai Faith. She then
>contacted National got names, began attending firesides, declared,
>MAILED us a photo copy of her membership card. Then went to
the
>Assembly telling them that she and my husband were involved in
an
>affair and she was "feeling very badly about it now that she was a
>Bahai."
Did you take the photocopy & any of her letters to the Assembly? Do
you still have any of them? Do you have any documentation on her
actions in any way? This could be a civil case in a judicial court.
BTW: Why was your husband's religious affiliation listed in his
employment files? What bearing would such data have on his ability
to
preform his duties as required?
>The Assembly in question set out to PROVE her correct in any way
>possible. We set out to PROVE that she had entered the Faith
only to
>cause trouble for our family and our community.
I believe that the concept of "innocent until shown otherwise" exists
in Baha'i jurisprudence also. They may have been "Long Time
Baha'is"
but even LTB's can be needy in the deepening department. Such in
fact
are often the crimps in our teaching plans. There they are,
comfortable in their exclusive club with their picayune powers &
really not wanting large numbers of new believers to be rocking their
cockleshells.
I say "Go! Learn the Writings better than they. Then, return & teach
them." If they choose to not learn then on their own heads be it.
See if you & your family can turn this whole affair (pun not
intended) into a "forgiving contest" instead of that other kind.
news
From: mspm...@msn.com (Matt Menge)
Subject: Re: Christ in India
Organization: ----
Date sent: 12 Apr 2002 17:23:53 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
It is not impossible. For example Baha'is believe that Socrates
traveled in his early life. However, we also believe that the
Manifestations, such as Christ, had intuitive knowledge. So while
He
had intuitive knowledge of India it is not strictly necessary for Him
to have traveled there to attain it.
Best Regards,
Matt
"Romana Harrison" <snow...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<MwFt8.14608$GS6.1...@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.co
m>...
> Dear Friends,
>
> i have several friends (including Native American's and Christians) that
> have read the book Christ Lived in India and find it very interesting. They
> have asked me if i know of anything in the Baha'i Writings to either
> validate or dispute it.
>
> It is about the 'missing' childhood years of Jesus life, saying that He went
> to India as a child and learned many spiritual things there that He then
> brought back to the Holy Land. It also says that He survived the cross, went
> back to India, married and died there.
>
> There also seems to be a Muslim faction that supports this theory. i am
> looking for any difinitive Authoritative Baha'i scripture that clears this
> up. i have heard of 'notes' of Abdu'l Baha's that say Christ is buried in
> 'The Holy Land'.
>
> Any information that can be shared would be helpful. Thank you,
> blessings to all,
> Romanita
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
news
Rat...@skynet.be>
From: "J.K.A. Singh-Rathore" <J.K.A.Singh-
Rat...@skynet.be>
Subject: Re: Former Bahai has a question.
Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 12:29:37 +0200
Organization: INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE OF POLICY
STUDIES
Dear Ellen,
It is quite heartening to see the variety of solutions that have been
developing as the remedy to the problems you have cited. Also,
from reading
your responses, I believe that the right choice is to pursue the
matter to
the very end through the legitimate channels of administration.
First and the foremost, as you can understand, the advice and
suggestions you will receive from the contributors to this forum aree
based
almost solely on the information you have provided. I have not seen
a
single posting from those of whom you have held responsible for the
pain and
suffering of your family. I assume that you have informed them
about you
bringing up the issue here. Hence, the advice and suggestions you
will
obtain from this forum may not be the most sound or effective.
Nevertheless, I believe you will be incorporating them into your own
strategy.
While the information you have provided is clearly your side of the
episode, and naturally coloured by personal points of view and
probably
incomplete, it is evident that you and the members of your family
have been
deeply hurt in every important aspect of personal and family life.
The pain
and misery you have described is immense, and few people would
have waited
for five years before taking any action.
As for the options available to you, there are two.
One is that you could pursue the matter through the Baha'i
administrative channels, i.e. the NSA, and ultimately the Universal
House of
Justice. It may take considerable amount of time to resolve those
issues.
Meanwhile, as teaching and propagation seem to be the highest on
the agenda
of Baha'i institutions, personal conflicts stand much lower on their
agenda.
However, a solution will eventually emerge out of your initiatives
through
those channels. Even when they do, as I have observed in my
surroundings in
the past, Baha'i institutions seem to distance themselves from
personal
conflicts and attempt to be neutral in their decisions - extremely
neutral
(if one can indulge in a grammatical redundancy). By this, their
decisions
and directives tend to be ambiguous, and open to conflicting
interpretations
by each party. Personally, I believe that is the best way to create
newer
debates among the parties.
Furthermore, the issues in this case are very local in nature, and
the
Baha'i administrative heirarchy in practice relies heavily on
established
Baha'i administrative order to obtain further information on your
case. The
fact that the LSA is a party to the conflict does not make it easier to
find
all the facts relevant to your case: in a number of cases I have seen,
the
"personnel" of the LSA do not even keep an accurate record of their
proceedings. That may occur for two reasons: one is administrative
ineptness, while the other is deliberate omissions and comissions.
One
cannot blame the Baha'i administrative order for that; it is the sheer
nature of individuals. Also, the NSAs and the Universal House of
Justice
are physically far from the scene makes their own tasks even more
difficult.
In spite of the above reasons, I believe that you should pursue
the
matter through the Baha'i administrative system. In the least, we
can
expect the institutions to gain some experience in handling personal
issues
and conflicts. As many seem to be quick to cite that the Baha'i
institutions are still in the state of infancy, cases like yours would
give
them the opportunity to exercise their prowess as the future houses
of
justice, and also grow out of their infancy.
The other option in front of you is something more locally based.
The
judiciary. If you had asked me some years ago, I would have
strongly stood
against taking our personal conflicts of civil nature to the courts, and
would have strongly recommended that Baha'is resolve them
through the Baha'i
system of Divine Justice. While I have faith in the eventual advent
of
Baha'i Justice, like a number of fellow Baha'is, I have come to the
conclusion that in this age, they are still in their infancy, need a lot of
exercise and growing up before they attain their true status.
On the basis of the information you have provided, I believe that
you
have a strong case of slander, and probably also libel. Provided you
have
all the facts, and are able to prove your point, I believe that the local
judiciary system has the qualification, competence and the authority
to make
a decision that is binding on all parties. Furthermore, they may have
better
access to the facts that are local in nature; they would also be in a
position to acquire first hand information, rather than "facts" being
relayed through individuals who might either be directly involved in
the
case, or are free to tamper with facts with impunity.
Like before, many Baha'is may argue that taking the matter to the
judiciary would only cause further conflicts and division. While their
hearts might be in the right place, most of them do not have any
personal
experience that is comparable to yours. Until now, I have not seen
or heard
of one case in which the Baha'i institutions have passed one
singular
binding "judgement" which if ignored would have serious
consequences.
However, I do admire the amount of time and efforts they put in with
the
object of instilling peace, harmony and unity. In addition, in this age,
it
is an impossible task to reconcile justice on one side and peace,
harmony
and unity on the other side. Furthermore, it appears that in your
case
there cannot be further disunity.
In conclusion, I believe that the extreme circumstances you have
cited
are better addressed by the judiciary. Their decisions would be
binding not
only on all individuals. In the least, that would bring a speedy end to
a
matter that has been left unresolved for five years, and has not
satisfactory end, should you want to pursue them solely through
Baha'i
administrative order.
--JKA
Brussels, BELGIUM
news
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
"Rabo Karabekian" <ra...@NOSPAM.emcglobal.com> wrote in
message
news:<cVDs8.61390$r7.50...@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>.
..
>
> The antagonist in the dispute has one extremely valid point however - the
> article on the Orthodox Baha'is does cover the Baha'i principles in great
> depth, and frankly the Baha'i article tends to focus solely on history and
> buildings. We (the editors) feel that the principles of the Faith should be
> encapsulated in the main Baha'i article and we should limit the OB article
> to the point of distinction (ie. the dispute about succession of the
> Guardianship). But none of us feel suitably qualified to redress this
> imbalance.
>
That's a coincidence to be sure. There are of course 'Abdu'l-Baha's
12 social principles:
1. The Oneness of God
2. The Oneness of religion
3. The Oneness of mankind
4. Equality of men and women
5. Elimination of all forms of prejudice
6. World peace
7. Harmony of religion and science
8. Universal compulsory education
9. Obedience to government
10. Non-involvement in politics
11. A spiritual solution to economic problems
12. Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty
These are mentioned by 'Abdu'l-Baha in Promulgation of Universal
Peace
and perhaps someone with this book can expand upon it.
Some other Baha'i principles include
Moderation in all things (specifically liberty, civilization,
religious zeal. and scriptural literalism)
The Covenant
Progressive Revelation
The principle of the heart (the idea that the heart must be changed
for the attainment of real knowledge)
Unity
Hope that helps start you off.
Matt
news
Romanita saith:
>i have several friends (including Native American's and Christians)
>that have read the book Christ Lived in India and find it very
>interesting. They have asked me if i know of anything in the Baha'i
>Writings to either validate or dispute it.
>
>It is about the 'missing' childhood years of Jesus life, saying that
>He went to India as a child and learned many spiritual things there
>that He then brought back to the Holy Land. It also says that He
>survived the cross, went back to India, married and died there.
>
>There also seems to be a Muslim faction that supports this theory.
>i am looking for any difinitive Authoritative Baha'i scripture that
>clears this up. i have heard of 'notes' of Abdu'l Baha's that say
>Christ is buried in 'The Holy Land'.
Ooh boy! Jesus sure did get around as a kid. I've seen some (so
called) "authenticated" texts that promote the claim that He spent
much of His childhood in England studying with Druids. Apparently
He
was a guest of one Joseph of Aramethea (per one account) who
had some
interests in tin mines or something. Considering the difficulties
inherent in traveling during that epoch I find myself wondering about
how long He was in Israel for that famous dispute with the Temple
elders.
Of course, everybody wants to claim such a Personage as Jesus
for
themselves & if there is anything akin to a mystical tradition in a
region.... Why can't people just accept that His Message was Divine
in origin & not taught to Him by any worldly tradition?
I keep waiting for Him to show up in West Africa or Central
America.
(No! Wait! the Mormons claim that He came to Mexico once.)
>Any information that can be shared would be helpful. Thank you,
I personally don't believe that anybody will find any confirming
evidence for any such visits in the Baha'i writings; since I tend to
suspect that this was too much world travel for a simple carpenter,
living in Roman occupied territory, to be able to afford. Anybody
care to prove me wrong.
--
Fredrick B. Capp
If communication were a strong point in this world,
Wal-mart would be selling maypoles by the million
& violence would be studied by professors as a quaint
historical conceit.
Thomas K. Dye
------- End of forwarded message -------
news
Yes, yes & yes.
Dempsey Morgan
To: bahai...@bcca.org
Subject: Re: Former Bahai has a question.
Dear Ms. Green and friends,
We here in America are materialistic and do not understand most
spiritual things. We all have spiritual stations, some higher than
others. The Hands of the Cause of God were regular believers like
you and me that did things that especially pleased the Beloved
Guardian of the Faith and the Sign of God on earth. As a result the
Beloved Guardian elevated their spiritual stations and called them
Hands of the Cause of God. Hand of the Cause of God Bill Sears
was one of them.
We are taught we who have lower spiritual stations do not
understand those with higher spiritual stations. We can not
understand Hand of the Cause Bill Sears because his spiritual
station is out of sight for us. He understands us but we do not
understand him. The Beloved Guardian has a very, very high
spiritual station, higher than the House of Jstice. The House of
Justice can not elevate spiritual stations like the Beloved Guardian
and for this reason there are no more Hands of the Cause of God.
There are only two Hands of the Cause of God still with us in this
plane, Mr. Furutan and Mr. Varqa.
Besides the Beloved Guardian is Prophetic and the House of
Justice is legelative only and not prophetic. Please read the letters
of the Beloved Guardian to the NSA-USA in the CIDADEL of FAITH
and in THE ADVENT OF DIVINE JUSTICE. Please read the letters
of the Beloved Guardian to other NSAs around the world, especially
India and England. The Baha'i Faith is spiritual and not material.
We Americans though we are spiritual our stations are so low we
really live on a material plane and even though we think we live
spiritual lives we really judge and look at the world with material
eyes. This is evidenced by our low numbers of believers compared
to our national population. The love of God in our country has
mostly died out and has been replaced by lifeless hearts and worldly
desires. morgan, DFC.
news
From: "john haukness" <hauk...@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Former Bahai has a question.
Organization: john haukness
Dear Friends: Karen's letter touches my heart as a homefront
pioneer.
I think we can put questions of our Institutions and individuals carrying degrees of
dysfunctioning within them into perspective by asking one question: What do you
expect?
Ok we are human we expect perfection, we want a rose garden, we want to illness
no sacrifice and we want money to grow on trees, but aside from that what do we
expect?
Look around at the old, rich, established Catholic Church's current turmoil, it puts our
troubles in the Baha'i Faith into prespective. Or look at the US Supreme Courts
functioning from Al Gores perspective?
The point is, what would you expect from a new world religion forming new little
Assemblies all over the world and appointing new Assistants to Board members and
new Board members? Would you expect if anyone else besides the Baha'is were to
set up a world wide system of Assemblies that they wouldn't have serious problems
and serious deficiencies from time to time?
Or do you think any non-Baha'is could do it and have perfection right away?
Like go out into outer Mongolia, rural South Dakota, downtown Lima Peru, reqruit 9
new people, your new so you can't always get the nine most famous and seasoned
people to join your new group, you might have to accept some people on the fringes
in fact to form your new assemblies.
Now if you look at it that way you may even say, that would be a bad idea, it would be
better not to form new Assemblies for justice based on new people running the new
Assemblies, it would be better to use the old traditional institutions. Which of course
Baha'u'llah realises and ingrained into His New Administration that His new on earth
Assemblies work with the existing traditional forms of legislators.
But, our new on earth Local Spiritual Assemblies are going to make mistakes,
sometimes unfortuneatly serious mistakes. Baha'u'llah had verses for that, one was
if a fellow Baha'i knocks you down, get up and forgive that person and see
Baha'u'llah in that person's face. See that every Baha'i, even the wrong ones reflect
Baha'u'llah. The wrong ones just reflect what Baha'is don't want to do. You have to
see what not to do to see it.
Well this is getting a little abstract now. But the question is do you expect a new
religion to start of perfect. Look in todays paper of one of the most esteemed
religious groups on earth, the Catholics, and not to pick on them, but if you say
Baha'is have pain and suffering within their Faith, well right now the Catholics are
airing out their dirty laundry too.
So, have a good airing out all, and carry on, Ya Baha El Abha. john
news
From: "Mavaddat" <joes...@earthlink.net>
Subject: A question about "male descendant"
Date sent: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 02:49:08 GMT
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
It is necessary to be the descendant of a male relative of the Báb or
Bahá'u'lláh in order to be an Afnán or Aghsán, respectively? Or, does it
imply that you are a male who is a descendant of either?
Susan Maneck
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject: Afnán or Aghsán
>
>It is necessary to be the descendant of a male relative of the Báb
or
>Bahá'u'lláh in order to be an Afnán or Aghsán, respectively? Or,
does it
>imply that you are a male who is a descendant of either?
Dear Mavaddat,
It implies a male but descent can be from either. Shoghi Effendi,
after all,
was an Aghsan on his mother's side and an Afnan on his father's.
warmest,
Dempsey Morgan
To: bahai...@bcca.org
Subject: Re: Former Bahai has a question.
Dear Baha'i friends,
Everything about LSAs are not in books. My experience after
putting toogether hundreds of LSAs all over the world and serving
on eleven different LSAs and advising some, I think and from what I
have seen the primary function of an LSA at this time is a teaching
committee. LSAs should and will some day have access to
speciallist such as socialogists, psychologist, lawyers and the like.
On my LSAs I have special committees to examine and investigate
marrital problems and report their findings and recomendationsto
the LSA for decisions. In this way the LSA can devote the
maximum time to its teaching committee, deepening and
literature.committees. The way I look at it the LSA wants a
knowledgeable, large and well financed community with
understanding, love and unity.
I have visited many LSAs, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Little Rock,
New Orleans, Nashville, Knoxville, Columbia, Charlotte and more
and talked with the chairmen, observed and suggested. I have
visited many LSAs overseas and will discuss them with you in
following notes. In my book the LSAs have not developed into
Houses of Justices a yet. They fall more into teaching committees
and need much development in this direction.
morgan,DFC.
john haukness
Subject: Re: Baha'i article in Encyclopedia
Date sent: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 11:16:37 -0500
Organization: john haukness
Dear Friends:
Orthodox Baha'is who are Covenant Breakers do sometimes reach
editors with their claims. The below indicates there isn't much
confusion about Baha'i Principals as the Orthodox group appears to
be in agreement with the Baha'is, which is not surprising. Most
everyone likes the Baha'i Principals, it's the new Baha'i
Administration and some of the Baha'i Laws, such as chastity and
no alcohol which can cause acute questioning or rejection.
The below post points out that one such disagreement does center
around the Baha'i Administration or the Guardian. All Covenant
Breaking do date has concerned itself with Baha'i Administration,
and it started with Mirza Yaya claiming Baha'u'llah the Prophet
Founder of the Baha'i Faith's Station, which forced Baha'u'llah to
cast his brother Yaya out. Then similar occurances happened to
Baha'u'llah's appointed successor Abdu'l Baha, and then Abdu'l
Baha's successor The Guardian, and then The Guardian's
Successor the Universal House of Justice.
So each time the Baha'i Faith had it's leader pass away a successor
was named and each time challenges to the successor occured.
Then these challengers have been expelled but naturally they
continue to attempt to find an audience that will accept their claim
that they be in charge of the Baha'i Faith.
They can say they are a Manifestation, or Center of the Baha'i
Covenant, or Guardian or The Universal House of Justice although I
am not aware of any group outside of the Baha'i Faith claiming to be
an alternate Universal House of Justice. But there are claims of
Prophethood, Center of the Covenant, (Abdu'l Baha's position) and
Guardian. It would be hard to envision 9 of these covenant breakers
agreeing with each other enough to form al alternative Universal
House of Justice as covenant breakers do not tend to agree to
much accept for a moment to moment schedual and hence we
many never see covenant breakers attempt to form an alternate
Universal House of Justice. But it is easier to take the prior
leadership postion which is the Guardian which was just one
person.
As far as extensive reasons and rational for justifying being a new
Guardian, it runs the gamut to infinity as to how anyone wants to
justify being a new Guardian. You can say you got a certificate from
a box of Cherrios, or you can make up more sophistiacted claims. I
would recomment getting a certificate from a box of Cherrios
though, much simpler. Probably right now, saying you are the new
Baha'i Guardian is more popular than saying your the Pope. Let the
Catholic controversy die down and in a few years the insane can
insist they are a new Pope but wait until the law suits go away. au
revoir j
----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Menge"
<mspm...@msn.com> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai To:
<bahai...@bcca.org> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'i article in Encyclopedia
Susan Maneck
>confusion about Baha'i Principals as the Orthodox group appears to
>be in agreement with the Baha'is, which is not surprising. Most
>everyone likes the Baha'i Principals,
Dear John,
There may be more reasons than that for the Remeyites to be especially fond of
the Twelve Principles. When 'Abdu'l-Baha gave talks in America He sometimes
sited eight principles, other times ten, etc. It was Mason Remey himself who
basically codified them into the twelve most Baha'is talk about today.
warmest, Susan
Dempsey Morgan
administrative procedures. I would suggest acquiring land offered by
the state at the feast. My wife had arranged land with a house on it
for transfer to the LSA . All the LSA had to do was to apply at no
cost. The secretary of the LSA was the best dressed woman in America
but didn't really function for the LSA with her heart. I found the LSA
did not discuss my suggestions at LSA meetings. The suggestions made at
feasts were never recorded or discussed at LSA meetings. Their excuse
was they were a young LSA. I checked and found the LSA was over 45
years old and had been founded by a very great homefront pioneer whom I
admired very much and to whose resting place I visited and said Baha''i
prayers. morgan DFC.
As you know I visited many LSAs in the States at my own expense and many
LSAs overseas and put hundreds of LSAs together in Asia and Africa that
are still functioning. I served on eleven different LSAs all over the
world, five different NTCs and four different NSAs, as chair of eight
different LSAs ( two in the States, Columbia and Bristol ) one in
Vietnam, chair of the LSA of Saigon, PhonomPen, Bangkok, and chair of
two different NSAs, Central Africa and Tchad. My LSA of Saigon had a
thousand believers and five institutes in the city in 1963. My LSA in
Tchad had three thousand believers and five institutes. With the help of
Dr Muhajur and the international lawyer Dr. Navidi, I got the LSA of Ft
Lamy incorporated with 30% of the city of Ft Lamy, Tchad Baha'is before
I left for Cambodia in 1971. morgan DFC.