Eternal inescapable hell?
mike3
I saw this:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/faac186e56cf83cd?hl=en&dmode=source
" Both before and after putting off this material form, there is
progress in
perfection but not in state.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 237)
The personality of the rational soul is from its beginning; it is not
due
to the instrumentality of the body, but the state and the personality
of
the rational soul may be strengthened in this world; it will make
progress
and will attain to the degrees of perfection, or it will remain in the
lowest abyss of ignorance, veiled and deprived from beholding the
signs of
God.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 240)"
I'm wondering what's up with that. Notice that the first says
"progress in perfection but NOT in 'state'" (emphasis mine), even
"before" putting off the material form (death, as we call it) not just
after, yet the latter says that the "state" can be strengthened _while
in this world_. It seems a little contradictory. What's up there?
Furthermore, if this is the only time that "state" can be increased,
then how can one take advantage of this life-time as best as possible
to increase it as far as possible? And if the "state" remains or is
made very low (does evil negatively affect it, and possibly also
failure to find out about the Manifestation due to circumstances
beyond one's control?), and then is "frozen" after death, then isn't
that sort of essentially an eternal hell for which there is no escape,
and so even the tiniest wrong will lead to, gasp, eternal hell (as
isn't that what hell is, a failure to develop spiritually, and to be
"remote from God" (is that the same as "state"))? And therefore that
the only place where a wrong can truly be forgiven is only at the
beginnings of our eternal lives, in this world, this realm, and so for
the vast rest of those lives, in the infinite worlds of God, we cannot
really be forgiven for that wrong and so we'll always be held back by
it? Or perhaps I don't understand what is meant here by "state".
Perhaps it means something else, and I'm also wondering if maybe it is
being used to refer to two different things and I don't have enough
context to determine which is which.
Douglas McAdam
Many years ago, when I ran into what "appeared" to me to be
contradictions in the Writings one of my old teachers said that the
reason was due to not being deep enough in my immersion into His
Word. That teacher was right for as time went on I found all that
appeared as contradictions were not for they were due to my
misunderstanding due to the degree of my deepening at the time.
I see no such contradiction in the quotes you mention because to me
the soul is a state, the body is a state and while we may do things to
strengthen each we do not change the essence of each. A chair is a
chair regardless if we put on more support or less, make it stronger
or weaker. A soul is the result of the Creator's creation and it is
in seed form to begin with and on this plane we have the free will to
either help or hinder (strengthen or weaken) its progress.
A human being is created when the sperm meets the egg, when the soul
connects to the physical world and even though it may not look human
at first it is still a human state.
regards,
doug
Suzanne
> " Both before and after putting off this material form, there is
> progress in
> perfection but not in state.
> (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 237)
>
> The personality of the rational soul is from its beginning; it is not
> due
> to the instrumentality of the body, but the state and the personality
> of
> the rational soul may be strengthened in this world; it will make
> progress
> and will attain to the degrees of perfection, or it will remain in the
> lowest abyss of ignorance, veiled and deprived from beholding the
> signs of
> God.
> (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 240)"
>
> I'm wondering what's up with that. Notice that the first says
> "progress in perfection but NOT in 'state'" (emphasis mine), even
> "before" putting off the material form (death, as we call it) not just
> after, yet the latter says that the "state" can be strengthened _while
> in this world_. It seems a little contradictory. What's up there?
Hi Mike,
My understanding of that passage is that the "state" he is speaking of
is our soul. A soul can be developed and trained in all the virtues,
but our state will never change. We will always have (or be) a soul.
However much we progress, we will only have a more fully developed
soul. We will never become a Manifestation of God, for instance.
That would be changing our state.
Mike wrote:
> Furthermore, if this is the only time that "state" can be increased,
> then how can one take advantage of this life-time as best as possible
> to increase it as far as possible?
I believe that the soul develops endlessly throughout all the worlds
of God. But you are right that it's very important to do what we can
to develop it in this world. Baha'u'llah said that the Manifestations
of God have been sent for the purpose of training our souls so that at
death we will ascend in the utmost purity. If you want to develop your
soul, you should follow their spiritual teachings.
You are right that the development of our soul is very important in
this world. This is the world of free will where our choices and
deeds will have a profound effect on the development of our souls.
After death, we progress through the bounty of God, and not through
our own deeds and actions, although 'Abdu'l-Baha says that souls in
the next world can "supplicate" God to progress:
"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin
and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the
object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice;
for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is
deserved. As we have power to pray for these souls here, so likewise
we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the
Kingdom of God. Are not all the people in that world the creatures of
God? Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they
can receive light by their supplication, there also they can plead for
forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.
Thus as souls in this world, through the help of the supplications,
the entreaties, and the prayers of the holy ones, can acquire
development, so is it the same after death. Through their own prayers
and supplications they can also progress; more especially when they
are the object of the intercession of the Holy Manifestations.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 330)
There is no Baha'i teachings about eternal damnation and hell. Hell
is the state of being far from God, but one can always progress.
God's forgiveness is great. As it says in one prayer for the dead:
"Although some souls have spent the days of their lives in ignorance,
and became estranged and contumacious, yet, with one wave from the
ocean of Thy forgiveness, all those encompassed by sin will be set
free."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Baha'i Prayers (US edition), Page: 47)
Suzanne
mike3
wrote:
> Dear Mike3-
> Many years ago, when I ran into what "appeared" to me to be
> contradictions in the Writings one of my old teachers said that the
> reason was due to not being deep enough in my immersion into His
> Word. That teacher was right for as time went on I found all that
> appeared as contradictions were not for they were due to my
> misunderstanding due to the degree of my deepening at the time.
You may not have noticed, but I did mention that perhaps I didn't
understand
it properly, or know what was meant, etc.
> I see no such contradiction in the quotes you mention because to me
> the soul is a state, the body is a state and while we may do things to
> strengthen each we do not change the essence of each. A chair is a
> chair regardless if we put on more support or less, make it stronger
> or weaker. A soul is the result of the Creator's creation and it is
> in seed form to begin with and on this plane we have the free will to
> either help or hinder (strengthen or weaken) its progress.
> A human being is created when the sperm meets the egg, when the soul
> connects to the physical world and even though it may not look human
> at first it is still a human state.
>
But then what's up with that other bit?:
"...but the *state* and the personality of
the rational soul may be strengthened in this world..." (emph. mine)
mike3
That's sort of what I thought but then what's that other bit where it
talks
about "...but the *state* and the personality of the rational soul may
be
strengthened in this world..." (emph. mine) Is there another use of
the
term involved here?
> Mike wrote:
> > Furthermore, if this is the only time that "state" can be increased,
> > then how can one take advantage of this life-time as best as possible
> > to increase it as far as possible?
>
> I believe that the soul develops endlessly throughout all the worlds
> of God. But you are right that it's very important to do what we can
> to develop it in this world. Baha'u'llah said that the Manifestations
> of God have been sent for the purpose of training our souls so that at
> death we will ascend in the utmost purity. If you want to develop your
> soul, you should follow their spiritual teachings.
>
> You are right that the development of our soul is very important in
> this world. This is the world of free will where our choices and
> deeds will have a profound effect on the development of our souls.
> After death, we progress through the bounty of God, and not through
> our own deeds and actions, although 'Abdu'l-Baha says that souls in
> the next world can "supplicate" God to progress:
>
However if this is the only world of "free will", then does that mean
that our
eternal life in the other worlds of God is therefore a prewritten
"tape"?
> "It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin
> and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the
> object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice;
> for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is
> deserved. As we have power to pray for these souls here, so likewise
> we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the
> Kingdom of God. Are not all the people in that world the creatures of
> God? Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they
> can receive light by their supplication, there also they can plead for
> forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.
> Thus as souls in this world, through the help of the supplications,
> the entreaties, and the prayers of the holy ones, can acquire
> development, so is it the same after death. Through their own prayers
> and supplications they can also progress; more especially when they
> are the object of the intercession of the Holy Manifestations.
> (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p
.. 330)
>
> There is no Baha'i teachings about eternal damnation and hell. Hell
> is the state of being far from God, but one can always progress.
> God's forgiveness is great. As it says in one prayer for the dead:
>
> "Although some souls have spent the days of their lives in ignorance,
> and became estranged and contumacious, yet, with one wave from the
> ocean of Thy forgiveness, all those encompassed by sin will be set
> free."
> (`Abdu'l-Baha: Baha'i Prayers (US edition), Page: 47)
>
This makes more sense.
Suzanne
> That's sort of what I thought but then what's that other bit where it
> talks
> about "...but the *state* and the personality of the rational soul may
> be
> strengthened in this world..." (emph. mine) Is there another use of
> the
> term involved here?
Hi Mike,
I remember reading in a letter from the Universal House of Justice
that the translation of Some Answered Questions is not the best, and
at some point the Universal House of Justice will have a committee
look at it again. So I wouldn't worry too much about individual
words. But my impression is that He is talking about the development
of the soul. The soul starts out very simple, but as we gain in
spiritual qualities it develops. I think of a diamond which, in its
uncut state, is still a diamond, but as the diamond is cut and various
facets are revealed it attains much more brilliance and can reflect
all sorts of colors and light. It's our tests in life, and how we
pass them (or don't), and it's our reading the Writings daily,
praying, bringing ourselves to account, and striving to turn the
counsels in our Writiings into action in the world which determines
how many beautiful facets we develop in our souls.
It's often useful to look at other passages which talk about a similar
theme in more understandable language. When I think of the
development of the soul from childhood to adulthood, this quote comes
to mind:
"The hearts of all children are of the utmost purity. They are
mirrors upon which no dust has fallen. But this purity is on account
of weakness and innocence, not on account of any strength and testing,
for as this is the early period of their childhood, their hearts and
minds are unsullied by the world. They cannot display any great
intelligence. They have neither hypocrisy nor deceit. This is on
account of the child's weakness, whereas the man becomes pure through
his strength. Through the power of intelligence he becomes simple;
through the great power of reason and understanding and not through
the power of weakness he becomes sincere. When he attains to the
state of perfection, he will receive these qualities; his heart
becomes purified, his spirit enlightened, his soul is sensitized and
tender - all through his great strength. This is the difference
between the perfect man and the child. Both have the underlying
qualities of simplicity and sincerity - the child through the power
of weakness and the man through the power of strength.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 53)
> However if this is the only world of "free will", then does that mean
> that our
> eternal life in the other worlds of God is therefore a prewritten
> "tape"?
No. My understanding is that free will has to do with choosing
between doing good and evil; choosing to follow the instructions of
the Manifestation of God or to cast them behind one's back and follow
one's own egos instead. This is the world of dualities where such
choices can be made. The next world is not a world of dualities.
Everything there is good. No bad exists. But there will be willed
actions, as the quote I cited in my last posting make clear. For
instance, 'Abdu'l-Baha said that people could pray in the next world.
Isn't that a willed action? The thing is, we have no idea what the
next world will be like. We have some clues in our Writings, but they
are all written so that we can understand, but it's a different
dimension and different reality. I'm sure that there will be willed
actions there than what we know about. I know it will be wonderful.
As Baha'u'llah says in the Hidden Words:
"O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee.
Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its
splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?"
I believe that the reality will be very good for pretty much everyone.
It won't be more limited than this world but much more expansive.
Maybe some will get off to a rocky, start, but we have all eternity to
progress towards God.
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
I guess I can best explain this by referring you to a physical thing.
We have muscles and their state can be strengthened by exercise.
Likewise the state of the soul is strengthened by the acquisition of
virtues.
regards,
doug
Douglas McAdam
I'm sure Suzanne will offer you a more complete explanation but I just
thought I would interject something that might be of further interest.
Our Writings tell us this world is but a reflection of the next. We
can see in our world various types of existences such a mineral,
vegetable, plant, human and spiritual. Only the human has free will
to obey or disobey, etc. The lower kingdoms are captives of nature.
We are also told that in the next world the progress of the soul is
strictly from the Mercy of God, that the soul then has no free will.
Could it be that when we enter the next world we are sort of like
spiritual minerals, vegetables, animals etc. and we involuntarily
react to the Holy Spirit much like the material world here
involuntarily reacts to the natural laws?
Just an idea.
regards,
doug
mike3
wrote:
> Hi Mike-
> I guess I can best explain this by referring you to a physical thing.
> We have muscles and their state can be strengthened by exercise.
> Likewise the state of the soul is strengthened by the acquisition of
> virtues.
>
So then "state" is being used in different senses here?
mike3
> > That's sort of what I thought but then what's that other bit where it
> > talks
> > about "...but the *state* and the personality of the rational soul may
> > be
> > strengthened in this world..." (emph. mine) Is there another use of
> > the
> > term involved here?
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I remember reading in a letter from the Universal House of Justice
> that the translation of Some Answered Questions is not the best, and
> at some point the Universal House of Justice will have a committee
> look at it again. So I wouldn't worry too much about individual
> words. But my impression is that He is talking about the development
> of the soul. The soul starts out very simple, but as we gain in
> spiritual qualities it develops. I think of a diamond which, in its
> uncut state, is still a diamond, but as the diamond is cut and various
> facets are revealed it attains much more brilliance and can reflect
> all sorts of colors and light. It's our tests in life, and how we
> pass them (or don't), and it's our reading the Writings daily,
> praying, bringing ourselves to account, and striving to turn the
> counsels in our Writiings into action in the world which determines
> how many beautiful facets we develop in our souls.
>
So then the term "state" is being used in different senses in each
of the two quotes? And I suppose then that this "cutting" of the
spiritual "diamond" is the thing that is "peculiar" to this life. And
so
if we fail to "cut" our spiritual "diamond" right, then we will be
stuck
with the less-than-nice "diamond" forever... still a "diamond", sure,
but not as nice as it would be. Isn't that a sort of eternal hell,
though,
albeit perhaps not a grave one?
So then there's still free will in the sense of free action, just no
free
will in the sense of good-vs-evil stuff.
> For
> instance, 'Abdu'l-Baha said that people could pray in the next world.
> Isn't that a willed action? The thing is, we have no idea what the
> next world will be like. We have some clues in our Writings, but they
> are all written so that we can understand, but it's a different
> dimension and different reality.
Is this the only other dimension and reality, though? If so then what
is
all this stuff about "worlds of God" (plural) which makes it sound
like
there's even more (which sounds even more incredible, too)?
> I'm sure that there will be willed
> actions there than what we know about. I know it will be wonderful.
> As Baha'u'llah says in the Hidden Words:
>
> "O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee.
> Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its
> splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?"
>
> I believe that the reality will be very good for pretty much everyone.
> It won't be more limited than this world but much more expansive.
> Maybe some will get off to a rocky, start, but we have all eternity to
> progress towards God.
>
So then hell is not eternal either, but then what about what I
mentioned
earlier?
Sen
> " Both before and after putting off this material form, there is
> progress in perfection but not in state (rutbat rank).
> (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 237)
That is, we can approximate to the 'perfect man' station, but not
transcend the human to reach the station of prophecy. That is
something granted, not attained.
> The personality of the rational soul is from its beginning; it is not
> due
> to the instrumentality of the body, but the state and the personality
> of
> the rational soul may be strengthened in this world; (SAQ 240)
This is a bad translation: the original says that the individualities
and particularlities of the rational soul can be strengthened and
progress in this world
~~ Sen
Douglas McAdam
Hi Mike-
Not sure what you mean. It is a different example but a "state" is a
state. The state of the soul, the state of the body, etc..
regards,
doug
Suzanne Gerstner
<<So then the term "state" is being used in different senses in each of the
two quotes?>>
I'm not sure what you mean. How is it used differently in the different
quotes?
Mike: <<And I suppose then that this "cutting" of the spiritual "diamond"
is the thing that is "peculiar" to this life.>>
Not necessarily. That could go on for all eternity for all I know.
Mike << And so if we fail to "cut" our spiritual "diamond" right, then we
will be stuck with the less-than-nice "diamond" forever... still a
"diamond", sure,
but not as nice as it would be.>>
No. I don't believe that's true. As I said, we can always advance
spiritually. I'm sure that God will help us to develop whatever we didn't
develop in this world, and a whole lot more that we can't even imagine now,
no matter in what state we arrive in the next world. God is All-loving,
All-merciful and forgiving. He wants us all to succeed and draw near to
Him.
Mike; << Isn't that a sort of eternal hell, though, albeit perhaps not a
grave one?>>
The quotes I know say that souls will progress. Not that they will be
stuck forever in a sort of spiritual limbo. Also, we have no idea who will
have a good start in the next world and who won't. Here's what Baha'u'llah
says about that:
"And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension,
been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire."
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 194-195)
Some people may have a rough time to begin with, but nothing in the Writings
says it's a permanent state.
The Writings are like a giant puzzle, in a way. Each quote is like a puzzle
piece. When you take one puzzle piece and inflate it to the level of the
sole truth, then it becomes a distortion. All we can do is little by litte,
learn enough of the Writings so that we can see what quotes might modify
other ones, and we get a big picture of how it all fits together. And, at
the end of the day, none of us knows what the next world will be like. We
have to wait until we go there to find out for sure.
Mike: <<So then there's still free will in the sense of free action, just
no free will in the sense of good-vs-evil stuff.>>
That's my understanding.
<<Is this the only other dimension and reality, though? If so then what is
all this stuff about "worlds of God" (plural) which makes it sound like
there's even more (which sounds even more incredible, too)?>>
The Worlds of God are endless, and we will progress endlessly. But we have
all eternity to do it.
Suzanne
mike3
wrote:
> Mike wrote:
>
> <<So then the term "state" is being used in different senses in each of t
he
> two quotes?>>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean. How is it used differently in the differen
t
> quotes?
>
Because in one case it seems the "state" cannot change, and if one
possible
meaning of "state" is that of being a (human) soul, which cannot
change, i.e.
we cannot go from the human realm to say the state of the
Manifestation of God,
however this meaning would seem to be at odds with the other
mentioning of "state"
as something that can be improved in this life. Yet if something else
is being
referred to by each, then there would be no problem.
> Mike: <<And I suppose then that this "cutting" of the spiritual "diam
ond"
> is the thing that is "peculiar" to this life.>>
>
> Not necessarily. That could go on for all eternity for all I know.
>
It could, I suppose.
> Mike << And so if we fail to "cut" our spiritual "diamond" right, then we
> will be stuck with the less-than-nice "diamond" forever... still a
> "diamond", sure,
> but not as nice as it would be.>>
>
> No. I don't believe that's true. As I said, we can always advance
> spiritually. I'm sure that God will help us to develop whatever we did
n't
> develop in this world, and a whole lot more that we can't even imagine no
w,
> no matter in what state we arrive in the next world. God is All-loving
,
> All-merciful and forgiving. He wants us all to succeed and draw near t
o
> Him.
>
This sure seems a lot more positive than all that Christian stuff with
the
Hell fire that burns you forever and what not if you slipped up...
> Mike; << Isn't that a sort of eternal hell, though, albeit perhaps not
a
> grave one?>>
>
> The quotes I know say that souls will progress. Not that they will be
> stuck forever in a sort of spiritual limbo. Also, we have no idea who
will
> have a good start in the next world and who won't. Here's what Baha'u'
llah
> says about that:
>
> "And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascensio
n,
> been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire."
> (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 194-195)
>
So does this mean one should quiver in fear that they might "slip" at
the point
of death, and get into a lot of trouble? I hope not.
> Some people may have a rough time to begin with, but nothing in the Writi
ngs
> says it's a permanent state.
>
> The Writings are like a giant puzzle, in a way. Each quote is like a p
uzzle
> piece. When you take one puzzle piece and inflate it to the level of t
he
> sole truth, then it becomes a distortion. All we can do is little by l
itte,
> learn enough of the Writings so that we can see what quotes might modify
> other ones, and we get a big picture of how it all fits together. And,
at
> the end of the day, none of us knows what the next world will be like.
We
> have to wait until we go there to find out for sure.
>
I suppose so.
> Mike: <<So then there's still free will in the sense of free action, j
ust
> no free will in the sense of good-vs-evil stuff.>>
>
> That's my understanding.
>
> <<Is this the only other dimension and reality, though? If so then what i
s
> all this stuff about "worlds of God" (plural) which makes it sound like
> there's even more (which sounds even more incredible, too)?>>
>
> The Worlds of God are endless, and we will progress endlessly. But we
have
> all eternity to do it.
>
It sounds a lot more amazing than the idea you just go off to
heaven if you were good to "rest" forever in bliss in your heavenly
home or something like in Christianity or whatever.
mike3
wrote:
Because one seems to suggest "state" cannot be changed, the other
suggests it can.
Douglas McAdam
On Jun 28, 2009, at 3:27 AM, mike3 wrote:
>>>
>>
>> Hi Mike-
>> Not sure what you mean. It is a different example but a "state" is a
>
>> state. The state of the soul, the state of the body, etc..
>>
>
> Because one seems to suggest "state" cannot be changed, the other
> suggests it can.
>
Hi Mike-
I did not get that meaning. Again, like Suzanne points out, one must
take each quote in a larger context. To me that quote says we are
created in a certain state and it cannot be changed but we can perfect
it. For example the state of the body is a physical state and it has
innate body wisdom and an inherent behavior pattern for survival at
all cost and involuntarily must abide by natural law. But we humans
can perfect that state by using science, reason, etc. to provide the
body with its needs to develop. We gain more muscle power, quickness,
etc. Or with proper education we will not pervert the physical nature
and thus prevent it from doing is proper function to serve the higher
nature. No matter what we do or don't do the body is a physical
state, but we can perfect it or delay or corrupt its natural powers.
regards,
doug
Suzanne Gerstner
Suzanne quoted: "And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his
soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire."
> (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 194-195)
>
The way I see it, Baha'u'llah is cautioning us against compacency. When you
have the idea that you are "saved" once and for always, you may feel that
you don't have to do anything more about it ever again. You can stop
growing spiritually. Realizing that your condition can change for the worse
at the end of your life keeps you on your toes, spiritually speaking. You
have more incentive to pray, reading the Writings and try to approach this
last great test in a spiritual manner, and you're more likely to gain the
benefits from it.
Suzanne wrote: > The Worlds of God are endless, and we will progress
endlessly. But we have all eternity to do it.
Mike: <<It sounds a lot more amazing than the idea you just go off to
heaven if you were good to "rest" forever in bliss in your heavenly
home or something like in Christianity or whatever.>>
Yes. There's work and challenges at every stage, although in different forms
which we can't imagine now. It does sound a lot more exciting than sitting
around paradise just strumming a harp or something. Eventually that could
seem like hell.
Suzanne
mike3
wrote:
I think I get it now... it talks about "strengthening" the state, not
"changing"
the state, and I guess "progress in state" would mean a change of
state, and that progress is not possible, hence why the first quote
mentioned says progress in perfection is possible but not that in
state.
mike3
wrote:
> Suzanne quoted: "And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of
his
> soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire.">
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 194-195)
>
> Mike wrote: "So does this mean one should quiver in fear that they mig
ht
>
> "slip" at the point of death, and get into a lot of trouble? I hope not."
>
> The way I see it, Baha'u'llah is cautioning us against compacency. Whe
n you
> have the idea that you are "saved" once and for always, you may feel that
> you don't have to do anything more about it ever again. You can stop
> growing spiritually. Realizing that your condition can change for the
worse
> at the end of your life keeps you on your toes, spiritually speaking.
You
> have more incentive to pray, reading the Writings and try to approach thi
s
> last great test in a spiritual manner, and you're more likely to gain the
> benefits from it.
>
I.e. it's a safety against the type of attitude, say, some
"Christians" like to take --
"Woohoo!! I'm SAVED!!! I accepted Jesus!!!" like that somehow
invalidates the
need to follow any of the spiritual teaching, laws, etc.
> Suzanne wrote: > The Worlds of God are endless, and we will progress
>
> endlessly. But we have all eternity to do it.
>
> Mike: <<It sounds a lot more amazing than the idea you just go off to
> heaven if you were good to "rest" forever in bliss in your heavenly
> home or something like in Christianity or whatever.>>
>
> Yes. There's work and challenges at every stage, although in different fo
rms
> which we can't imagine now. It does sound a lot more exciting than sit
ting
> around paradise just strumming a harp or something. Eventually that co
uld
> seem like hell.
>
Yes, I suppose so. So in this world, we have the challenge of good and
evil.
In the worlds to come, we will have other challenges (though we won't
know
what those are until we get there and face them.).
Suzanne
> I.e. it's a safety against the type of attitude, say, some
> "Christians" like to take --
> "Woohoo!! I'm SAVED!!! I accepted Jesus!!!" like that somehow
> invalidates the
> need to follow any of the spiritual teaching, laws, etc.
Yes, exactly.
Mike:
>
> Yes, I suppose so. So in this world, we have the challenge of good and
> evil.
> In the worlds to come, we will have other challenges (though we won't
> know
> what those are until we get there and face them.).
Right. We can't know until we get there.
Suzanne
>
> Yes, I suppose so. So in this world, we have the challenge of good and
> evil.
> In the worlds to come, we will have other challenges (though we won't
> know
> what those are until we get there and face them.).
Hi Mike,
In thinking some more about this, I would say that our challenge in
this world isn't simply between good and evil, but the challenge is to
strive to follow the guidance in the Writings; to be of service to
others, to struggle to win spiritual battles and develop one's
spiritual qualities; as opposed to just living one's life in a purely
materialistic, self-centered way.. Most of us don't ever go so far as
being evil, but we don't go nearly far enough along the path of
righteousness either.
Suzanne
mike3
To me though such things like the service to others, winning
spiritual battles, and developing the spiritual qualities is part of
the
"good" that I mentioned in the "good and evil" bit.