Manifestations of God
Suzanne
Manifestations of God. I felt that this was an excellent question and
warranted a new thread so that passersby who might be interested in
the topic may be able to find it.
According to the Baha'i Writings, the Manifestations of God are the
Founders of the world's great Religions. Some of the Manifestations
of God have been Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha,
Krishna, and, in this age, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
The Manifestations of God are the Educators of the world of humanity.
They usually appear about once in a thousand years (give or take
several hundred), and they renew the eternal spiritual laws of God and
give the new teachings which are needed for humanity to grow and
develop to another level of spiritual maturity.
>What is the definition and explanation of
> the word Manifestation?
Manifest is to show or reveal something. Baha'u'llah says the
Manifestations of God are like mirrors reflecting and manifesting all
the signs and attributes of God:
"These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are,
one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of
the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed
their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The
beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and
their revelation a sign of His deathless glory...By the revelation of
these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such
as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom,
glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest."
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Pages: 47-48)
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
I post this to that other forum for the friends to consider?
Thanks,
doug
Suzanne
> This is something along the lines that I was looking for Suzanne. Can
> I post this to that other forum for the friends to consider?
>
Hi Doug,
Sure. Go ahead.
There is another point about the Manifestations of God. Baha'u'llah
says that each one has a two-fold station. They have the station of
distinction. In this station, they each have a different name,
different mission and come at a different point in history where the
needs of humanity are different. But they also have a station of
unity and oneness. . Each one is speaking as the Mouthpiece of God.
Each manifests all the attributes of God. Each is in a state of
complete and utter servitude to God.
Here's a quote from Baha'u'llah which speaks about the Manifestations
of God:
"These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is
the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect,
if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the
same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath
revealed: "No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers."
For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge
the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite
grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood,
and are honored with the mantle of glory...
It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the
Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers
attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt
behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same
heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and
proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of
Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor!
Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim
saying: "I am the return of all the Prophets," He, verily, speaketh
the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return
of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly
established....
The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth
to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this
respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a
definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially
designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different
name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite
mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He
saith: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To
some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus,
Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the
Holy Spirit."
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Pages: 50-52)
This makes a lot of sense of some of the sayings of Jesus which seem
to be quite contradictory. Sometimes He spoke as if He was merely a
humble servant of God, and at other times He spoke as if He was God.
Actually, both things are true. It also makes sense of how some
Manifestations of God speak with the voice of Divinity and others
speak as if they are merely humble servants of God. Baha'u'llah says
that the Manifestations of God are in the utmost servitude to God, but
to our limited human world, they are all that we can actually know of
God. To us they *are* God.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
Saffire
Please consider these inclusions to your discussion.
> "These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are,
> one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of
> the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose.
>
> According to the Baha'i Writings, the Manifestations of God are the
> Founders of the world's great Religions.
Starr*: Which in the case of Baha'i it claims its beginnings in
Babism.
It wasn't till after the Conference of Badasht (1848) that the Bab
said he was the Mahdi; and it wasn't till after 1857-63 that
Baha'u'llah made a claim to Manifestationhood.
What is interesting, is that prior to these claims, Tahirih was known
as the Point of Divine Knowledge - and the Bab writes of Her:
[viii] “Concerning what you have inquired about that Mirror which has
purified its soul in order to reflect the Word
by which all matters are solved; She is a righteous, learned, active,
and pure woman; and do not dispute al-Tahira in her command for she is
aware of the circumstances of the cause and there is nothing for you
but submission to her since it is not destined for you to realize the
truth of her status” (Amanat, Abbas, “Resurrection and Renewal”, p.
307).
Amanat’s footnote 78 says: For an even stronger endorsement of
Qurratu’l-Ayn status by the Bab see passages cited in ZH (Tarikh Zuhur
al Haqq, History of the Manifestation of Truth, vol. III, by Fazil
Mazandarani, pgs 331-34), where she is praised as “the proof for
all” (hujja ala al-kull) whose instructions are binding for all
believers”. http://tahirihstarr.wordpress.com/
Starr*: Looking at this chronologically, and considering Baha'i finds
its roots in the earlier movement it could be said Tahirih was the
founder Mirror. This is especially interesting when we read what She
proclaimed at the Conference of Badasht prior to the Bab's claim as
the Mahdi.
[i] She declared: `I am the Word which the Qa’im is to utter, the Word
which shall put to flight the chiefs and nobles of the earth! (The
Dawn-Breakers, translated from the original Persian and edited by
Shoghi Effendi (1932), Baha’i Publishing Trust, Wilmette, Illinois,
1970, pp 296-297)
One should note here that the Word of his Revelation was communicated
to Baha'u'llah by the Maid of Heaven. If Tahirih is the Word, then
aside from Her Manifestationhood, She is also the Maid of Heaven, or
Most Great Spirit which communicates the Word.
> Manifest is to show or reveal something. Baha'u'llah says the
> Manifestations of God are like mirrors reflecting and manifesting all
> the signs and attributes of God:
IMO She, as the Manifestation, came to end the past, and begin the new
universal cycle - as she proclaimed at the Conference of Badasht. She
should never be omitted as humanity moves forward... for She is the
Source of the Zeigeist for the advancement of civilization.
Starr*
Suzanne
> It wasn't till after the Conference of Badasht (1848) that the Bab
> said he was the Mahdi;
The Bab declared that He was the promised One of Islam (whether you
call that the Qa'im or the Mahdi) on the 23rd of May, 1844, the date
Baha'is celebrate as the Declaration of the Bab.
> What is interesting, is that prior to these claims, Tahirih was known
> as the Point of Divine Knowledge
Tahirihi was one of the Letters of the LIving, the disciples of the
Bab. She was one of the first to recognize the station of the Bab,
even before she met Him. She had great spiritual qualities and a very
important role to play at the inception of our Faith, but she wasn't a
Manifestation of God. At least not with a capital letter M. She was,
however, very pure and had amazing spiritual and intellectual powers
and a very high station. I would agree that she was absolutely
exceptional and should never be forgotten.
> IMO She, as the Manifestation, came to end the past, and begin the new
> universal cycle - as she proclaimed at the Conference of Badasht. She
> should never be omitted as humanity moves forward... for She is the
> Source of the Zeigeist for the advancement of civilization.
If that were really true why wasn't more said about her being a
Manifestation of God by Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi,
and why do they repeatedly insist it was the Bab? We have, literally,
hundreds of books of Baha'i Writings on every possible topic, but
nowhere is this station of Tahirih made expicit. Why would we have to
deduce it from a couple of easily misinterpreted passages, one of
which was from a book which isn't even Baha'i Writings?
Best wishes,
Suzanne
Suzanne
> It wasn't till after the Conference of Badasht (1848) that the Bab
> said he was the Mahdi;
The Bab declared that He was the promised One of Islam (whether you
call that the Qa'im or the Mahdi) on the 23rd of May, 1844, the date
Baha'is celebrate as the Declaration of the Bab.
> What is interesting, is that prior to these claims, Tahirih was known
> as the Point of Divine Knowledge
Tahirihi was one of the Letters of the LIving, the disciples of the
Bab. She was one of the first to recognize the station of the Bab,
even before she met Him. She had great spiritual qualities and a very
important role to play at the inception of our Faith, but she wasn't a
Manifestation of God. At least not with a capital letter M. She was,
however, very pure and had amazing spiritual and intellectual powers
and a very high station. I would agree that she was absolutely
exceptional and should never be forgotten.
> IMO She, as the Manifestation, came to end the past, and begin the new
> universal cycle - as she proclaimed at the Conference of Badasht. She
> should never be omitted as humanity moves forward... for She is the
> Source of the Zeigeist for the advancement of civilization.
If that were really true why wasn't more said about her being a
compx2
further, that our own personal crusades appear to each of us more
important than the crusades of others.
You: "Thanks, Kent. I haven't actually figured out what your view of
the Manifestations of God is or what is so radically different from my
view based on my reading of the Baha'i Writings."
The first time I read that I misinterpreted you to mean that you DID
figure out my view, that you DID understand, and I decided I did not
need to answer about this anymore, that I had made my point. To me
it is so simple I don't understand why Baha'is understand a
Manifestation of God as a person instead what I believe most obviously
was intended by those words. A manifestation, an apparition,
evidence, exposition or display of the Glory of God on earth. God has
not manifested very many times, and the Best of those manifestations
surrounded holy People Who devoted Their lives to Him.
So I don't understand entirely what you don't understand. Is it that
you think a Manifestation must be a Man? Because I don't. I don't
even think of a Manifestation of God ever was a man, but rather the
Manifestation surrounded and focused on the life of a few Men in
history. When we are referred to a Manifestation I believe we are
refered to a time period, a life and works and the events surrounding
and the personal behavior of an individual Who can be said to have
most completely manifested the earthly attributes of God. To call
Them by name misinterprets the point. The point is He Is Manifested
in the relationships, aspects and attributes of the life of this
Man.
This to me is very different than asserting that there were Nine or so
and naming Them.
And I am doggedly trying to make this point, that we must see the
Spirit of God regardless of the Name we call Him, we cannot convert
people, we must recognize God in those around us, that if we don't
love that Spirit we will never recognize it even if it is called by
the approved and legally registered name, and the Love of God can
never reach those who think God has more to do with words than with
actions, devotion and love...
You are also trying doggedly to accomplish something. I hesitate to
put your intentions in my words because I am afraid you will feel I
belittle or misrepresent those intentions, so suffice it to say I
respect your efforts here. As I respect the efforts of Starr who, as
far as I am concerned has similar intentions to yours, if you two only
realized. You both have understandings of people, places and things
which lead you to think some such recollection is the correct history
and we all need to heed it to be correct and receive our justice. It
is a misconstrual of all religion throughout all history, and Baha'is
are just as likely as anyone else to be wrong.
I don't think that way. I would love to go on, but I am afraid you
don't understand.
Your friend, --Kent
sb.ge...@ntlworld.com
My only intention is to represent what is written in the Bahaí Writing
s on this and every other subject as accurately as possible. If you imagin
e I have another intention, then you are mistaken.
You seem to understand only part of what I have said. I am not saying th
at a Manifestation of God is a Man only. They are another level of existen
ce altogether. They are pre-existent and exist in the spiritual realm whet
her or not they are being manifested in the world through human form at any
point in time. They are all one and the same on some level. If you were
to call them all by one name, on that level of essential unity, then you wo
uldn't be wrong. They are all "the return" of every other Manifestation of
God.
Also, I do believe that we can all manifest God in our lives. In the Hidde
n Words Bahaú'llah says, "Thy spirit is my place of revelation. Clean
se it for my manifstation."
I honestly don't see this subject in the black and white sort of way you se
em to imagine.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
> > Manifestation of God. At least not with a capital letter M. Â
compx2
What have I misunderstood?
What is the dichotemy, the "black and white" in my understanding.
I honestly don't think you have shown a view to which I could
misunderstand in this thread, and it is insulting for you to
characterize my view as "black and white" without explanation.
--Kent
> > > Suzanne- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
sb.ge...@ntlworld.com
I did not say that you have a black and white understanding; merely that I
don't. I had the feeling from your previous posting that you thought I did
, and that I only understood part of dual station of the Manifestations of
God; the station of being the human Founders of the world's great religions
; and that I didn't understand that they also have a spiritual dimension wh
ich is beyond time and space. You said that I had a "fundamentally differ
ent" different view of them than you did, so I was just explaining that I t
oo understand what you understand about this dimension, although I can't cl
aim to understand all the in's and out's of it, since, as Abdu'l-Baha says,
they are a level higher than us and so we can't really understand them. N
one of us can. We can only understand what is written about them according
to our own capacity. I am sorry for any misunderstanding.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
> > > you think a Manifestation must be a Man? Because I don't. Â
> > > and we all need to heed it to be correct and receive our justice. Â
sb.ge...@ntlworld.com
I did not say that you have a black and white understanding; merely that I
don't. I had the feeling from your previous posting that you thought I did
, and that I only understood part of dual station of the Manifestations of
God; the station of being the human Founders of the world's great religions
; and that I didn't understand that they also have a spiritual dimension wh
ich is beyond time and space. You said that I had a "fundamentally differ
ent" different view of them than you did, so I was just explaining that I t
oo understand what you understand about this dimension, although I can't cl
aim to understand all the in's and out's of it, since, as Abdu'l-Baha says,
they are a level higher than us and so we can't really understand them. N
one of us can. We can only understand what is written about them according
to our own capacity. I am sorry for any misunderstanding.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
> > > you think a Manifestation must be a Man? Because I don't. Â
> > > and we all need to heed it to be correct and receive our justice. Â
compx2
Thank you for clarifying, I am sorry I misunderstood.
That the Manifestation of God, the Person, is said in the Baha'i
Writings to have a dual station does not mean that a Manifestation of
God is a Person with a dual station. It is rather like saying a
school is both a building and a state of mind. But saying so does not
mean that schools are nothing more than buildings in which people have
states of mind.
The spirituality, the import, the meaning and essence of Manifesting
God on earth is a huge subject. To dismiss that subject as a dual
station seems to me a mistake. But that is just one Baha'is opinion.
The larger question is what is spirituality. A manifestation of God
has a lot of it, but what is it?
Thanks for reading. --Kent
I hope you understand me.On Sep 8, 2:11 am, <sb.gerst...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> Hi Kent,
>
> I did not say that you have a black and white understanding; merely that
I
> don't. I had the feeling from your previous posting that you thought I
did
> , and that I only understood part of dual station of the Manifestations o
f
> God; the station of being the human Founders of the world's great religio
ns
> ; and that I didn't understand that they also have a spiritual dimension
wh
> ich is beyond time and space. You said that I had a "fundamentally di
ffer
> ent" different view of them than you did, so I was just explaining that I
t
> oo understand what you understand about this dimension, although I can't
cl
> aim to understand all the in's and out's of it, since, as Abdu'l-Baha say
s,
> they are a level higher than us and so we can't really understand them
.. N
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
compx2
Thank you for clarifying, I am sorry I misunderstood.
That the Manifestation of God, the Person, is said in the Baha'i
Writings to have a dual station does not mean that a Manifestation of
God is a Person with a dual station. It is rather like saying a
school is both a building and a state of mind. But saying so does not
mean that schools are nothing more than buildings in which people have
states of mind.
The spirituality, the import, the meaning and essence of Manifesting
God on earth is a huge subject. To dismiss that subject as a dual
station seems to me a mistake. But that is just one Baha'is opinion.
The larger question is what is spirituality. A manifestation of God
has a lot of it, but what is it?
Thanks for reading. --Kent
I hope you understand me.On Sep 8, 2:11 am, <sb.gerst...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> Hi Kent,
>
> I did not say that you have a black and white understanding; merely that
I
> don't. I had the feeling from your previous posting that you thought I
did
> , and that I only understood part of dual station of the Manifestations o
f
> God; the station of being the human Founders of the world's great religio
ns
> ; and that I didn't understand that they also have a spiritual dimension
wh
> ich is beyond time and space. You said that I had a "fundamentally di
ffer
> ent" different view of them than you did, so I was just explaining that I
t
> oo understand what you understand about this dimension, although I can't
cl
> aim to understand all the in's and out's of it, since, as Abdu'l-Baha say
s,
> they are a level higher than us and so we can't really understand them
.. N
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Suzanne
<<The spirituality, the import, the meaning and essence of Manifesting
God on earth is a huge subject. To dismiss that subject as a dual
station seems to me a mistake. But that is just one Baha'is opinion.
>>
Hi Kent,
Yes, this is a huge subject and shouldn't and the spiritual side of
God Manifesting on earth shouldn't be dismissed at all. It is because
of the Spiritual station that they came into this world, and it is
that station which spiritualizes and revolutionizes the human world.
It is certainly what makes them so important. But we can't completely
dismiss the human station of a Manifestation of God either
Baha'u'llah speaks of the "two-fold station" of the Manifestations of
God. Speaking of the Manifestations of God He says:
"...Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath
assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of
matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God
Himself."
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 66)
He reiterates this point in many places. For instance, speaking of
His own Self He says:
"When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth
me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things "verily
I am God"; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it
coarser than clay!"
(Baha'u'llah: Aqdas: Notes, Page: 234)
'Abdu'l-Baha actually talks about not two but three stations of the
Manifestaiton of God; the physical side of their natures, the human
soul and the "Divine appearance; the Holy Spirit". I believe it is
this third one you are stressing:
THE THREE STATIONS OF THE
DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS
Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees
of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three
stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is
the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of
the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.
The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements,
and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to
decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be
disintegrated.
The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the
human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations
share it with all mankind.
Know that, although the human soul has existed on the earth for
prolonged times and ages, yet it is phenomenal. As it is a divine
sign, when once it has come into existence, it is eternal. The spirit
of man has a beginning, but it has no end; it continues eternally. In
the same way the species existing on this earth are phenomenal, for it
is established that there was a time when these species did not exist
on the surface of the earth. Moreover, the earth has not always
existed, but the world of existence has always been, for the universe
is not limited to this terrestrial globe. The meaning of this is
that, although human souls are phenomenal, they are nevertheless
immortal, everlasting and perpetual; for the world of things is the
world of imperfection in comparison with that of man, and the world of
man is the world of perfection in comparison with that of things.
When imperfections reach the station of perfection, they become
eternal.(1) This is an example of which you must comprehend the
meaning.
The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly
splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy
Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are
related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world.
For God the end is the same thing as the beginning. So the reckoning
of days, weeks, months and years, of yesterday and today, is connected
with the terrestrial globe; but in the sun there is no such thing -
there is neither yesterday, today nor tomorrow, neither months nor
years: all are equal. In the same way the Word of God is purified
from all these conditions and is exempt from the boundaries, the laws
and the limits of the world of contingency. Therefore, the reality of
prophethood, which is the Word of God and the perfect state of
manifestation, did not have any beginning and will not have any end;
its rising is different from all others and is like that of the sun.
For example, its dawning in the sign of Christ was with the utmost
splendor and radiance, and this is eternal and everlasting. See how
many conquering kings there have been, how many statesmen and princes,
powerful organizers, all of whom have disappeared, whereas the breezes
of Christ are still blowing; His light is still shining; His melody is
still resounding; His standard is still waving; His armies are still
fighting; His heavenly voice is still sweetly melodious; His clouds
are still showering gems; His lightning is still flashing; His
reflection is still clear and brilliant; His splendor is still
radiating and luminous; and it is the same with those souls who are
under His protection and are shining with His light.
Then it is evident that the Manifestations possess three
conditions: the physical condition, the condition of the rational
soul, and the condition of the divine appearance and heavenly
splendor. The physical condition will certainly become decomposed,
but the condition of the rational soul, though it has a beginning, has
no end: nay, it is endowed with everlasting life. But the Holy
Reality, of which Christ says, "The Father is in the Son,"(1) has
neither beginning nor end. When beginning is spoken of, it signifies
the state of manifesting; and, symbolically, the condition of silence
is compared to sleep. For example, a man is sleeping - when he begins
to speak, he is awake - but it is always the same individual, whether
he be asleep or awake; no difference has occurred in his station, his
elevation, his glory, his reality or his nature. The state of silence
is compared to sleep, and that of manifestation to wakefulness. A man
sleeping or waking is the same man; sleep is one state, and
wakefulness is another. The time of silence is compared to sleep, and
manifestation and guidance are compared to wakefulness.
In the Gospel it is said, "In the beginning was the Word, and the
Word was with God."(2) Then it is evident and clear that Christ did
not reach to the station of Messiahship and its perfections at the
time of baptism, when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the
likeness of a dove. Nay, the Word of God from all eternity has always
been, and will be, in the exaltation of sanctification.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Pages: 151-153)
But God must have had a reason to manifest Himself through human
Beings who had ears to hear, and mouths to speak, and, in the case of
Baha'u'llah, pens to write, and who could feel real human pain and
suffering. I remember when I was a fairly new Baha'i not being
particularly impressed by the suffering of Baha'u'llah because I knew
He was a Manifestation of God and could rise above all that and just
live on the spiritual plane of existence. And then I went on
pilgrimage and saw His portrait which was taken shortly after being
poisoned by His own half-brother, Mirza Yahya. I saw real pain and
suffering etched in His face. Yes, the Manifestations of God are,
essentially, God on earth. There is no doubt about it. And they can
activate the spiritual side of human beings and transform them. And
they are at least as active in our world once they leave the physical
plane of existence. But there is also a human side to the
Manifestations of God while they are on earth. They are flesh and
blood people, and, according to 'Abdu'l-Baha, they also have a human
soul. And they also stress their sufferings. this too must be for a
reason. As Baha'u'llah said in the Tablet to Ahmad:
"Remember My days during thy days, and My distress and banishment in
this remote prison. And be thou so steadfast in My love that thy heart
shall not waver, even if the swords of the enemies rain blows upon
thee and all the heavens and the earth arise against thee."
(Baha'u'llah: Baha'i Prayers (US), Page: 212)
Remembering what the Manifestations of God were prepared to suffer and
sacrifice in the path of God helps their followers to become more
steadfast and prepared to suffer, too, in the path of God (imv). This
too has a function.
All best wishes,
Suzanne
p.s. "What is spirituality?" is a great question, although a
difficult one to pin down. Do you think it should be in a new thread?
compx2
the Writings say, the meaning of the words used in the Writings, or
any other consideration you just say: "It is because of the Spiritual
station that they came into this world..."
To you, and every other Baha'i I know, it is just a truth that the
manifestation of God on earth throughout human history can be
explained as "they" wanted to. Besides being inaccurate according to
the Writings of our Faith, it is very much like polytheism in point of
view, and we all agree it is incomplete and over simplified. But we
perpetuate the errors with our comments and mindless assent to the
unchallenged untrue *fact* that the manifestation of God on earth are
people.
Why? Because it supports the view that the Baha'i Faith is the
unchanging Religion of God on earth, and that Baha'is know a secret
name that will, in a 'round about way, give them an advantage over
everyone else, regardless the Writings of our religion say that is not
true either.
Are we together on this point?
Warmly, --Kent
compx2
the Writings say, the meaning of the words used in the Writings, or
any other consideration you just say: "It is because of the Spiritual
station that they came into this world..."
To you, and every other Baha'i I know, it is just a truth that the
manifestation of God on earth throughout human history can be
explained as "they" wanted to. Besides being inaccurate according to
the Writings of our Faith, it is very much like polytheism in point of
view, and we all agree it is incomplete and over simplified. But we
perpetuate the errors with our comments and mindless assent to the
unchallenged untrue *fact* that the manifestation of God on earth are
people.
Why? Because it supports the view that the Baha'i Faith is the
unchanging Religion of God on earth, and that Baha'is know a secret
name that will, in a 'round about way, give them an advantage over
everyone else, regardless the Writings of our religion say that is not
true either.
Are we together on this point?
Warmly, --Kent
On Sep 13, 12:37 pm, Suzanne <sb.gerst...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Suzanne
Actually I have cited repeatedly and extensively from the Baha'i
Writings to make my points, and you have not done so even once to make
yours. Why should we believe that your interpretation is correct?
Just because you say so and insult those who disagree?
If the Manifestations of God do not have a human station in addition
to their divine one, perhaps you could explain to me why it says
repeatedly in our Writings that they do. And if it's polytheistic to
talk about them as a "They", then why do Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha
do so? Why do they use plural when talking about them, and name
different ones: Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Buddha, Zoroaster,
the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Yes, they are all One in essence. Yes, they
are all "soaring in the same heaven, and seated upon the same
throne." I am well aware of this fact and can quote extensively on
this point as well. But they are also all different. They had
different names and different missions. Baha'u'llah said that they
did. He explains this point at great length in the Kitab-i-Iqan.
This is not my interpretation but His. As far as I'm concerned, this
"two-fold station" is what explains all the seeming differences
between the Founders of all the world's great religions and reconciles
them all. In my mind, this is the key to brining unity to all the
world's great religions.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
Suzanne
But we
> perpetuate the errors with our comments and mindless assent to the
> unchallenged untrue *fact* that the manifestation of God on earth are
> people.
I cited quotes from the Central Figures of our Faith to say that they
have both a human and a Divine station. What do you mean by saying
this is untrue? Please read what 'Abdu'l-Baha wrote:
"... Then it is evident that the Manifestations possess three
conditions: the physical condition, the condition of the rational
soul, and the condition of the divine appearance and heavenly
splendor. The physical condition will certainly become decomposed,
but the condition of the rational soul, though it has a beginning,
has
no end: nay, it is endowed with everlasting life. But the Holy
Reality, of which Christ says, "The Father is in the Son,"(1) has
neither beginning nor end.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Pages: 151-153
Kent wrote:
> Why? Because it supports the view that the Baha'i Faith is the
> unchanging Religion of God on earth, and that Baha'is know a secret
> name that will, in a 'round about way, give them an advantage over
> everyone else, regardless the Writings of our religion say that is not
> true either.
I find the above extremely cynical and a gross distortion of other
Baha'is views and intents; people who are just accurately trying to
relate what the Writings say, (sometimes by quoting them directly). Is
this the unchanging Religion of God? Yes. Baha'u'llah says so:
"This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in
the future."
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Page: 85)
Is it important that Baha'u'llah has come? Yes, because He's the
Divine Physician. He's the only One who knows the remedy for this
particular age in which we live:
"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind.
He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom,
the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its
particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-
day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age
may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live
in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 213)
We have the duty to society let people know that He's come:
"The friends have a great duty, first towards the Cause and then
towards society at large. Baha'u'llah has come to the world with a
divine Message and devoted all His life and withstood all forms of
persecution in the hope of establishing it firmly. We are now the
trustees of that Mission. It is for us to bring that task begun by
Baha'u'llah to a final consummation. Should we fail, we have been
untrue to our Lord and also remained deaf to the cry of humanity
seeking salvation."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an
individual
believer, November 15, 1931: Baha'i News, No. 71, p. 2,
February
1933: Lights of Guidance, Page: 80)
It seems to me that your disagreement is with the Baha'i Writings
themselves. I think we will have to agree to disagree.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
Suzanne
But we
> perpetuate the errors with our comments and mindless assent to the
> unchallenged untrue *fact* that the manifestation of God on earth are
> people.
I cited quotes from the Central Figures of our Faith to say that they
have both a human and a Divine station. What do you mean by saying
this is untrue? Please read what 'Abdu'l-Baha wrote:
"... Then it is evident that the Manifestations possess three
conditions: the physical condition, the condition of the rational
soul, and the condition of the divine appearance and heavenly
splendor. The physical condition will certainly become decomposed,
but the condition of the rational soul, though it has a beginning,
has
no end: nay, it is endowed with everlasting life. But the Holy
Reality, of which Christ says, "The Father is in the Son,"(1) has
neither beginning nor end.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Pages: 151-153
Kent wrote:
> Why? Because it supports the view that the Baha'i Faith is the
> unchanging Religion of God on earth, and that Baha'is know a secret
> name that will, in a 'round about way, give them an advantage over
> everyone else, regardless the Writings of our religion say that is not
> true either.
I find the above extremely cynical and a gross distortion of other
compx2
I think the Writings say that "manifestation of God " means what the
words say, and not what people will generally believe those words mean
150 years from when they were written.
I am inspired by and understand the Writings, but the common
understandings I see among Baha'is, well, notsomuch.
How should people believe? As they want to. It is certainly much
easier to give a Bishop money to absolve your sins than to try to live
a better life. Should we do the easier? We all make our choices.
Listen to me only if you want to. Ignore me because what I say is
controversial, and no one believes me anyway. But I will not shut up
just because I find those who follow my religion prefer not to think
or listen, and want to feel special for misunderstanding the Baha'i
Writings. We all want what is easier. It appears to be the human
condition. And only a religion might have the power to change that
condition.
But it is part and parcel to my religion that God does not want us to
accept the easy answers. Do you want some quotes?
We all know the Writings do not say Baha'is have special dispensation
just for being Baha'is. Let deeds not words...
The Writings do not say the Baha'i Faith is the eternal Religion of
God, Baha'i general belief notwithstanding. The Baha'i Faith is
administrative and guided by God. The Eternal Religion of God is
eternal, ideal, and we should strive for it as have the best of the
human race for as long as there have been human beings.
The Writings do not say there is any advantage to being Baha'i over
not. It says denying God and His Manifestations on earth is a bad
thing. And I think Baha'is are just as guilty of that as are members
of every religion. Good people do good things. Bad people do bad
things. But it takes a religion to make good people do bad things.
The Writings give extensive, wonderful advice about how to live one's
life. That is the focus of a Baha'i life if you ask me. Do you want
more quotes? Let deeds not words.... Be worthy of the trust of your
neighbor, Be generous.... Just because Baha'is overlook the obvious,
well explained, bulk of the Baha'i Writings in favor of a few choice
lines that make them feel special, well, that is in spite of me, not
because of me. I find comfort in that.
I am not disputing any of what you quote, I am disputing your
meaning: That a manifestation of God is a man. The obvious meaning
of the words "manifestation" and "of" and "God" are the reasons I
dispute your meaning. "They" are not anything. The manifestations of
God are not "They".
The manifestations of God on earth are not the same or different as
one would compare one personality with another The manifestations of
God on earth were and are awesome, and in history those manifestations
were undeniably and inextricably associated with the life and times of
the Founders of major religions. But those manifestations were not
the people. To say so is extreme oversimplification, and just not
true in any useful way.
Thanks for reading. --Kent
compx2
Thanks for reading. --Kent
compx2
errors with our misunderstandings. I do not dispute your quotes, I
dispute your understanding. And I believe I have been very clear
about that.
You find my view cynical. Fine. I find the Baha'i Faith entrenched
in error. I see Baha'is going down the same path as every other
religion, and we will soon forget the bulk of the Baha'i teachings in
favor of those teachings which make us complacent, arrogant, silly,
just like all religions before us.
If that is cynical, okay. But ignoring the obvious problem is worse,
in my opinion.
You have ignored precisely what is the changeless faith of God is:
"...a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have
been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming
with joy, hasten ye unto Him".
If you want to talk about what sort of "Cause" that is, since our
Writings captitalize it as we capitalize "Manifestation" perhaps you
will say that the "Cause" is a man as well? I don't think so. But
the full quote says our determination is required, as is our own
personal discovery of wisdom and truth. These things are done in a
lifetime, not something we do once and forgetaboutit.
Warmly. --Kent
Suzanne
The reason that the Baha'i Faith will never go the route of past
religions is because, for the first time in religious history, we have
a Covenant which makes clear whose interpretations are authoritiative
and whose are not. Mine are not and yours are not. No normal Baha'i
can claim authority over the Writings and tell all the other Baha'is
what they should and shouldn't believe. We all have the same body of
Writings which we are supposed to read from every evening and every
morning, and reflect on. It is this body of Writings which informs
our beliefs and opinions about our Faith. This is what I have been
doing for the past quarter century. It is the reason I keep quoting
from the Writings. My personal views are unimportant, although I do
strive to bring them into alignment with the Baha'i Writings. The
most important thing is what the Writings themselves say on any
particular subject, and the more quotes we can bring together on a
particular subject, the more we are enabled to find the truth of the
matter. In the past, Holy Scripture was left to clergy to interpret,
and there were those who insisted upon a particular interpretation and
because of that doctrines were created and schisms sprang up, and many
people believed the doctrines and never actually read the Writings of
the Founders of their Faiths. This will not ever happen, we are told,
in the Baha'i Faith. There may be those out there insisting that
every other Baha'i on earth is wrong, and only *they* know the true
meaning of the Writings, but nobody pays much attention to that. In
fact, we're told not to:
"A clear distinction is made in our Faith between authoritative
interpretation and the interpretation or understanding that each
individual arrives at for himself from his study of its
teachings...... although individual insights can be enlightening and
helpful, they can also be misleading. The friends must therefore learn
to listen to the views of others without being over-awed or allowing
their faith to be shaken, and to express their own views without
pressing them on their fellow Bahá'ís.
(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual
believer, May 27, 1966)
If Baha'is are not listening to you, it is probably because it is
their right and responsibility to interpret the Writings for
themselves. You say that Baha'is don't think and are "mindless".
Believe me, Baha'is *do* think. I have attended and tutored countless
study circles and I have seen and heard all the thoughts going on.
It's amazing how we can all read the same passages and get such
different insights from them, and how, by sharing our insights with
others who are open-minded and interested, all of us are enriched.
And, believe me, Kent, I certainly do think about the Writings all
the time. I have done so for the past quarter century. And I also
think about how *all* the Writings can be seen as a whole, since
certain quotes give different shades of nuance and meanings to other
ones. I don't cherry pick the quotes which agree with my particular
view. I am quite happy to have people show me other quotes I hadn't
thought of before and other ways of seeing them. But they do need to
share quotes with me for me to take them seriously. Just saying that
they know better and I don't know anything doesn't work for me. I
don't actually know anyone (Baha'i or not) who that would work for.
Best wishes,
Suzanne