The Shining Spark of Truth
diamondsouled
no occasion for ill-feeling or discord may arise. This can be attained
when every member expresseth with absolute freedom his own opinion and
setteth forth his argument. Should anyone oppose, he must on no
account feel hurt for not until matters are fully discussed can the
right way be revealed. The shining spark of truth cometh forth only
after the clash of differing opinions. If after discussion, a decision
be carried unanimously well and good; but if, the Lord forbid,
differences of opinion should arise, a majority of voices must
prevail.
[1 Of a Spiritual Assembly]
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 87)
This site is not so bad Kent. For humanity to get from where it is
now to where it should be will take a lot of the: "clashing of
differing opinions".
This is one job that is impossible to leave at work though since it
should be the very manner in which we attempt to conduct our day to
day lives: in a deep and abiding relationship with the truth, no
matter how difficult that truth is to accept, and no matter how deeply
that truth shakes the very foundation of our personal cosmos and world
views.
Cheers
Larry Rowe
compx2
and you can be so reasonable.
My issue is that the Baha'i Faith is not inclusive as it exists but
rather divisive. Issues like homosexuality are the crux, but what we
lack is tolerance for opposing ideas.
I see no reason why people like you and me could not be main stream
"Baha'is" if we can see the Faith in its intended light, as the
Religion of God, instead of what it has become.
If our views were accepted as those who believe, wrongly, that there
will be one world Baha'i government one day... There are so many
examples of what main stream Baha'is accept that are just oh so
wrong. I mean all religions accept such foolishness, prayer will cure
cancer, calamities, all sorts of magic ... But these people who are
so wrong think they own the Baha'i Faith and create doctrinal
divisions and tensions.
Anyway, if you and I can accept the authority of the institutions of
the administrative order of the Baha'i Faith (as opposed to what we
believe that administration is or might be one day) the Baha'i Faith
would include us and millions of others.
Up to an including those who do not wish to have "voting rights" but
wish to be Baha'is. I am not discounting the importance of
administrative membership, but rather extending Baha'i Faith
membership beyond such administrative countenance. We all know the
proclaimation that soon all that dwell here will be enlisted. That
does not mean everyone will have administrative membership, all
homosexuals will be "cured" and there will be no recreational drug use
or sex outside of marraige. But it could mean that all of us will
accept the principles of spirituality and virtue expounded in all
religion.
It often seems to me that if our beliefs are foolish, simple, counter
to science and just wierd we can be Baha'is. But if we make sense we
have to withdraw. My main issue here is that this site has become a
clearing house for criticism as all the other sites have become. No
one can reasonably defend the Baha'i status quo and so criticism is
all that is left.
On the other hand, if main stream Baha'is were as tolerant of
homosexuality as we are of the idea that the Universal House of
Justice will rule the earth in kingship free of homosexuality and all
other evil sex and illicit recreational drugs, we would have millions
of new Baha'is.
Thanks for reading. -- Kent
diamondsouled
> Thanks, Larry, for answering. We go back several years, you and I,
> and you can be so reasonable.
Thanks for responding as well Kent.
This is something that I've had to work on, being reasonable.
>
> My issue is that the Baha'i Faith is not inclusive as it exists but
> rather divisive. Issues like homosexuality are the crux, but what we
> lack is tolerance for opposing ideas.
In it's present state the Baha'i faith, or at least those who believe
they are in control of it ( of course the truth is God's in control )
cannot tolerate even allowing the open discussion of concepts and
ideas which are gravely effecting the Baha'i faith, basically sucking
the spirit out of it-the shining spark of truth.
If we cannot openly, honestly, have a: "clashing of differing
opinions", on women's full equality in the Baha'i faith; if we cannot
openly and honestly have a: "clashing of differing opinions", on the
full equality of individuals regardless of sexual orientation, then:
"the shining spark of truth", will not be found, at least not by
Baha'is.
>
> I see no reason why people like you and me could not be main stream
> "Baha'is" if we can see the Faith in its intended light, as the
> Religion of God, instead of what it has become.
The religion of God is so all embracing that it defies containment. It
began when we first starting believing in an after life, and as we
developed socially our mythic world view to support such beliefs
developed as well. The religion of God is in every spiritual act, from
those of the Amazonian shaman, to us here today speaking with one
another of the religion of God.
>
> If our views were accepted as those who believe, wrongly, that there
> will be one world Baha'i government one day... There are so many
> examples of what main stream Baha'is accept that are just oh so
> wrong. I mean all religions accept such foolishness, prayer will cure
> cancer, calamities, all sorts of magic ... But these people who are
> so wrong think they own the Baha'i Faith and create doctrinal
> divisions and tensions.
Agreed.
>
> Anyway, if you and I can accept the authority of the institutions of
> the administrative order of the Baha'i Faith (as opposed to what we
> believe that administration is or might be one day) the Baha'i Faith
> would include us and millions of others.
The religion of God has never excluded even one soul, it includes us
regardless of our awareness or unawareness of it. It is intrinsic to
existence itself.
Lately my personal belief to do with God have been in flux. I've
found that I'm content in not knowing whether a God like being which
is comprehensible to humanity exists, or conversely does not exist.
What I cannot deny the existence of is Existence Itself. The
existence of all the has, does, and will exist. Whether Existence
Itself experiences consciousness it any manner that I am capable of I
can never know for sure, at empirically. Another thing that I cannot
deny is that I personally am a part and parcel of what Existence
Itself Is. A part of It's Totality, a small part, makes up my
totality, my existence.
> Up to an including those who do not wish to have "voting rights" but
> wish to be Baha'is. I am not discounting the importance of
> administrative membership, but rather extending Baha'i Faith
> membership beyond such administrative countenance. We all know the
> proclaimation that soon all that dwell here will be enlisted. That
> does not mean everyone will have administrative membership, all
> homosexuals will be "cured" and there will be no recreational drug use
> or sex outside of marraige. But it could mean that all of us will
> accept the principles of spirituality and virtue expounded in all
> religion.
>
> It often seems to me that if our beliefs are foolish, simple, counter
> to science and just wierd we can be Baha'is. But if we make sense we
> have to withdraw. My main issue here is that this site has become a
> clearing house for criticism as all the other sites have become. No
> one can reasonably defend the Baha'i status quo and so criticism is
> all that is left.
And that is exactly why we have to have the:"clashing of differing
opinions", to get to: "the shining spark of truth".
Once open, honest, straightforward, dialogue is cut off, is not
allowed, entropy and stagnation set in.
> On the other hand, if main stream Baha'is were as tolerant of
> homosexuality as we are of the idea that the Universal House of
> Justice will rule the earth in kingship free of homosexuality and all
> other evil sex and illicit recreational drugs, we would have millions
> of new Baha'is.
Humanities picture of what constitutes the religion of God has to
undergo a paradym shift.
This stands as true for Baha'is as it does for religionists from all
other religions.
Later Kent
Larry Rowe
compx2
You: > In it's present state the Baha'i faith, or at least those who
believe
> they are in control of it ( of course the truth is God's in control )
> cannot tolerate even allowing the open discussion of concepts and
> ideas which are gravely effecting the Baha'i faith, basically sucking
> the spirit out of it-the shining spark of truth.
I understood that to be your view, and I do not share it. I think a
lot of people just assume that "Baha'is" all believe such and such or
so and so, and that is not true. I have been on Assemblies and I know
that people come up with all kinds of startling, and sometimes very
wisely guided, opinions. Whoever you believe can "control" the Baha'i
Faith is more a function of your own belief system and less a function
of what the Baha'i Faith is. The control of the Baha'i Faith is
written, for the most part, and I believe it will stand up fine to
challenges eventually. What it should not have to stand is the
innuendo and silly interpretations people like you and I attribute to
it. We need to be tolerant of its members silliness, and those
members need to understand the there are many conflicting opinion,
that there is not a single earthly truth, but rather several.
Tolerance is needed on both sides, Larry.
I see the actions of the Administrative Order as the heart and soul of
the Faith as it stands today. That is not to say your or my
interpretations of those actions, but the actions themselves.
Obviously people who withdraw are allowed to withdraw, as I believe
was your case. People like me are, to my knowledge, listened to and
mainly left alone. And distance is placed between those who work to
undermine the institutions of the Faith and those institutions. It
makes sense to me.
> If we cannot openly, honestly, have a: "clashing of differing
> opinions", on women's full equality in the Baha'i faith; if we cannot
> openly and honestly have a: "clashing of differing opinions", on the
> full equality of individuals regardless of sexual orientation, then:
> "the shining spark of truth", will not be found, at least not by
> Baha'is.
The clash need not be public. I call it tolerance. All religions
have their idiot fringes and the Baha'i Faith is no exception. We
tolerate idiocy, but in public it appears as if the main-stream
Baha'is are the idiots. We don't want to cross the line of pointing
out the sillyness of main-stream beliefs. At some point, if the
Baha'i Faith is to grow, we need to tolerate points of view that are
reasonable as well as the idiot main-stream.
For example, it is my view that the Baha'i Faith does not interfere
with the sex lives of individuals any more than it interferes with
their financial affairs. Dishonesty or blatent disregard for
community norms needs to be addressed. Other than that we need to
follow the advice of Baha'u'llah and worry about how we ourselves act
and not how others act. I know there are myriad stories of where
Baha'i institutions have crossed this line, and I don't dispute it,
but I hesitate to spread rumors about what might or might not be
correct. I can only hope that as reason enters the rank and file of
the Faith these instances will become less frequent.
Women will not be on the Universal House of Justice. That is just a
fact. Everything else is interpretation. No reason to talk about it
unless such talk is not approval or disapproval, but rather
clarification. One does not reasonably approve or disapprove of other
facts of life. We can complain about the US Congress, but why?
> Lately my personal belief to do with God have been in flux. I've
> found that I'm content in not knowing whether a God like being which
> is comprehensible to humanity exists, or conversely does not exist.
I have always seen God as extended metaphor.
>...Whether Existence
> Itself experiences consciousness it any manner that I am capable of I
> can never know for sure, at empirically.
Consciousness, however, exists, without which there is no God. And
with the existence of consciousness comes the existence of the Highest
Conceivable Consciousness.
> Humanities picture of what constitutes the religion of God has to
> undergo a paradym shift.
If the Baha'i Faith taught me anything at all, the only paradigm that
matters is my own. I am saying we all need to accept the paradigms of
others, even if they are silly (and they usually are).
Nice talking to you. --Kent
> Larry Rowe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -