If tomorrow our elected administration adopted your views....
compx2
That writer fails to notice that no Baha'i elected administration has
adopted anyone's views on any matters.
I think this is a common misconception among Baha'is, that whatever
view they have is that of the Baha'i Faith.
There is no official Baha'i View, not Baha'i Interpretation. There
are just a lot of Baha'is who accept the Baha'i Writings, and the
authority of the Baha'i Administration.
Warmly, --Kent
mike...@yahoo.com
>Another writer wrote the line to me, the subject line of this thread.
>That writer fails to notice that no Baha'i elected administration has
>adopted anyone's views on any matters.
This depends on what you mean by adopt? If we are talking about
courses of action, when to or not to apply laws, how to apply
laws..etc. Then you are wrong. The administration regularly does this.
And in practicality this does impose a viewpoint on certain matters.
Historically in certain areas the administration has choosen to or not
to apply laws on everything from alcohol consumption in russia to hair
length for men in america. Most any law we have can be applied or not
applied as the administration sees fit.
The administration represents the collective sum total of our
community and how we all view our faith. It's beautiful to me, like
the unfolding flower of truth. That 5 or 6 million Baha'is elects our
administration that grows in size with the size of our respective
communities. It represents the truest form of representation and
democracy.
It wasn't some uber rich party which you had no relationship with
that presents you with option A or B. By contrast, these elected
people come from within your community, irrespective of their wealth
or political pull. You don't fear that exxon mobile is really running
the show, instead you know that everyday people like yourself get
together and consult.
I don't expect the Baha'i administration to adopt my views or anyone
elses for that matter. I expect that it must reflect the collective
truths that we all know. No one person alone possess all the answers.
When you express your dissatisfaction with this, what you are really
stating is that you somehow are superior to all the other 5 million
Baha'is out there, that somehow your version of the truth trumps the
collective answer you've received. It's expected that we will all
voice our concerns and respective truths at feast or in LSA. But
people who attack the Baha'i administration aren't attacking some
separate political body, it is rather an attack on every Baha'i and
their right to their own voice and contribution to the truth.
This is so different in concept from the master-student views in
traditional religions. In traditional religions one person studies the
truth and adopts a viewpoint which is transmitted to either his flock
or his student. Sometimes that person is flat out corrupted by local
corporate interest. In the Faith, we all have our respective
viewpoints and through collective study and consultation adopt and
enforce our most basic laws that must reflect our totality.
I may not have all the answers myself but one truth that I'm willing
to bet on is that I don't have all the answers nor does anyone else.
So I accept that I can contribute to peace when I submit to a group of
my peers and through consultation arrive at the truth.
compx2
Who are you talking to?
"> When you express your dissatisfaction with this,..."
Who expressed dissatisfaction with anything? Perhaps, as with our
other conversations, you have forgotten that you agree with me. On
the one hand I am saying what you are saying, on the other I am
completely wrong.
Perhaps if you confined yourself to talking to me about what I said we
could have a conversation.
Warmly, --Kent
compx2
Who are you talking to?
"> When you express your dissatisfaction with this,..."
Who expressed dissatisfaction with anything? Perhaps, as with our
other conversations, you have forgotten that you agree with me. On
the one hand I am saying what you are saying, on the other I am
completely wrong.
Perhaps if you confined yourself to talking to me about what I said we
could have a conversation.
Warmly, --Kent
On Jun 10, 11:27 am, mikera...@yahoo.com wrote:
mike
You:
"I believe the Baha'i Faith has many, many defects. So many that I
will not say that it is The Faith of God, however it is one Faith of
God on earth, One among many."
"That is the point I am trying to make. You and all the Baha'is have
it backwards. The Religion of God comes from the people who shine the
Light of God. And those who do not shine that Light, the Universally
Admired and Sought by all, Known to all, the Day Spring of the Ancient
of Days... Those who do not call people to that Light and shine for
all to see are lost even if they know the Greatest Name of God and
attend Feasts. "
>"Who expressed dissatisfaction with anything?"
I'm not certain what you consider the Baha'i administration. But from
any good source that I have (and by all means check this yourself),
The Baha'i international community is an integral component of the
Baha'i administration. Unlike western forms of religion, the community-
administration relationship is one and the same, there is no real
separation. In other words, you can't have a Baha'i administration
without a Baha'i community.
To illustrate the difference, a church may direct funds to build a
church in a given area and then seek congregants in that area via an
appointed person. By contrast, the Baha'i faith forms a congregation
when nine people are in any given area. This grass roots Baha'i
congregation eventually forms a community and even may raise funds to
build its' own center. The administration is not some artificial
entity separated from the Baha'i community.
This is the point I made earlier, and the point by virtue of your
question that you seem to miss. You can't generalize that all Baha'is
are backwards and turn around and express some twisted loyalty to the
Baha'i administration. The Baha'i administration is filled with
Baha'is, they depend of each other, and they are both components of
the same Baha'i Faith.
To claim as you have, that 'the Baha'i Faith has many, many defects'
is in essence the same as stating that our administration is
defective. Each component of the Baha'i Faith is a reflection of the
same truth. To attempt to separate the Baha'i administration,
community and Baha'i faith from each other is in my opinion a
blasphemy against the very basic concept of unity. Each component of
the Baha'i Faith is a reflection of the same truth.
It is very true that not all Baha'is are perfect, but this age old
statement applies equally to all of humanity regardless of religion.
The question will never be is everyone going to be perfect, the real
question will be what are we teaching our children. Not every child
that enters a math class is going to be the next Issac newton, but as
a society we still see the need to teach all our children basic math.
A society which fails to teach the Baha'i Faith is likened to a
society which fails to teach basic math, it will end up broke and
backward.
compx2
You quote me fairly. Then you claim I am saying something completely
different.
The Baha'i Faith has defects. You say so yourself. So are you
"expressing dissatisfaction"?
Those who shine the light of God are members of His Religion. Those
who do not are not, even if they know the Greatest Name and attend
feast.
Where is my "dissatisfaction" in that? It is as it should be. I am
very happy with the way things are. There is no magic, no special
dispensation for evil people, taciturn people, silly people, people
committed to pleasing their group with words but with their deeds show
no care for their neighbors, who believe they are special not because
of what they do, but because they know a magic word.
I am not dissatisfied, I am very satsified. I would be dissatisfied
if the Baha'i Faith got rewards it did not earn. If the Baha'i Faith
were as it is now, but got special treatment, special notice,
universal admiration. It does not, and it should not unless and until
the Baha'i Faith learns its lesson that people shine the light of God
with their lives, their virtue, reflecting teachings with behavior and
attitude and deeds and love. When Baha'is turn to such things it will
truly be a wonderful religion. Until then it has earned its
obscurity, and I am happy about it.
If everyone I know knew what I know about the Baha'i Faith they would
wonder why I would want to be a member. But I do want to be a member
because of faith, of hope, virtue, and wonder. I want to show that
the Faith is me, my soul, my essence, my being.
But according to you the Faith doesn't want me. You think you own the
Faith, as most Baha'is seem to think, and that my thoughts and
feelings about their Baha'i Faith are damaging. Keep it up and you
can have it. You can keep the trite, silly little Baha'i Faith,
because my Faith is the Faith of God, and it is certainly not the same
thing as your Baha'i Faith. I wouldn't want your Baha'i Faith, and
that does not dissatisfy me that I don't own the Baha'i Faith either.
It is as it should be.
My dissatisfaction? That would be in you and your kind who cannot
include people who want love, unity, justice, virtue, and personal
initiative in their religions because they believe in God instead of
Baha'u'llah, His Religion and not the Baha'i Faith, The Day Star of
Truth and not some person's name. People who stifle and contain and
stop the growth of wonder, astonishment, justice and truth and call it
"obedience" to the administration, when no such administration
exists. The limits are in their minds, not in the World of God.
I can't change others, however, so I am not dissatisfied. I am
satisified that is how things are, how they have always been, how they
will always be. People like you, Mikera, seem to want some sort of
clergy position, some feeling of importance or membership in a club
when that is not the religion of God. God has no need of such a
club. The point is for us, on our own, without help or encouragement
whatsoever to provide help and encouragment to those around us
unconditionally. It is up to us to make the world a better place
regardless the names of our religions. And those who do it best have
the best religion.
Do I really need to explain this to you, Mikera?
That religion which does the most good for the most people is the best
religion. But it is still not perfect. And I am deeply, profoundly
satsified with that. It is precisely as it should be.
> The Baha'i international community is an integral component of the
> Baha'i administration.
The community is part of the administration?
> ...the community-
> administration relationship is one and the same, there is no real
> separation.
You've lost me.
> The administration is not some artificial
> entity separated from the Baha'i community.
Hmmm. Perhaps you will clarify sometime.
> To claim as you have, that 'the Baha'i Faith has many, many defects'
> is in essence the same as stating that our administration is
> defective.
You said so yourself, in the same message, the following paragraph.
You: "The question will never be is everyone going to be perfect, the
real question will be what are we teaching our children."
It is my hope that we will teach our children virtue, love, justice,
and teach it with the example of our own lives. That is how God
taught us.
--Kent
mike
>> ...the community-
>> administration relationship is one and the same, there is no real
>> separation.
>You've lost me.
>You said so yourself, in the same message, the following paragraph.
>You: "The question will never be is everyone going to be perfect, the
>real question will be what are we teaching our children."
There is a difference between the Baha'i community and a Baha'i
individual. You may state that no individual is perfect. But where one
is deficient, others are not, so as a community, we may reflect all
those qualities of the ideal Baha'i.
I can recognize that Baha'is on an individual level have many short
comings, just like everyone else in society, but as a community, as
the Baha'i Faith, we represent the qualities of the ideal Baha'i.
>But according to you the Faith doesn't want me.
Whether or not you think the Faith wants you is between you and God.
Leave me out of that. I can state this, being a Baha'i is a blessing
without doubt, a gift from God to be cherished. To predicate your
belief as a Baha'i on the actions of other Baha'is is already an act
of disrespect to God. In essence, it states that your faith in God and
his revealed Faith depends paradoxically on the actions of men.
Whether one person believes in it or a million is irrelevant. You
should recall that at one time almost all of this world was
polytheist, monotheism was no less true then as it is now. All those
countless Egyptians, romans..etc. had it wrong, and their societies
crumbled and religions are left to history books.
Suzanne
> I think this is a common misconception among Baha'is, that whatever
> view they have is that of the Baha'i Faith.
>
> There is no official Baha'i View, not Baha'i Interpretation. There
> are just a lot of Baha'is who accept the Baha'i Writings, and the
> authority of the Baha'i Administration.
Kent,
While I agree that the view of individual Baha'is is not synonymous
with "the Baha'i view", we certainly do have Baha'i interpretations
which have been given to us by both 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi,
and elucidations and writings by the infallible Universal House of
Justice. Their explanations are synonymous with the Baha'i view.
Both Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice use the
phrase, "the Baha'i view", or "the Baha'i standpoint". Here are some
examples:
"...The Baha'i view of "reincarnation" is essentially different from
the Hindu conception..."
(Shoghi Effendi: Dawn of a New Day, Page: 201)
"..."The Baha'i view on that subject is that the Dispensation of
Muhammad, like all other Divine Dispensations, has been fore-ordained,
and that as such forms an integral part of the Divine plan for the
spiritual, moral and social, development of mankind. ..."
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 496)
..And this is from the Universal House of Justice:
"The queries you raise about donors of eggs or sperm in cases of
infertility and the state of the souls of frozen embryos relate to the
broader question of the Baha'i attitude toward recent advances in
medical science which increase the probability of conception in cases
of infertility.
"The Baha'i view is very balanced. While appreciating the value
of the new medical techniques which enable previously childless
couples to enjoy the blessings of a family, the teachings define such
limits as are necessary to preserve the dignity of the individual and
the sanctity of marriage..."
( (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice
to
a National Spiritual Assembly, October 25, 198, Lights of
Guidance, Page: 349)
"The Baha'i view" or "standpoint" is that which is derived from the
Writings of the Faith. It may be simple, straightforward quoting or
paraphrasing from the Writings, or it may be a context of the central
teachings of the Faith which other issues can be viewed from. For
instance, the Faith teaches the essential oneness of humankind. Or
the Faith teaches that each human being is, in essence, an immortal
soul. Those are contexts which other things can be viewed from. But
"the Baha'i view" doesn't stray at all from what the Writings say or
intend, and is not the views of individual Baha'is -- especially not
ones who present the Faith through the prism of their own
interpretations mixed with a lot of their own thinking which is found
nowhere in the Baha'i Writings.
Suzanne
compx2
> Their explanations are synonymous with the Baha'i view.
Their explanations are the Baha'i Writings, you have named the Central
Figures and the Universal House of Justice. Baha'is accept the Baha'i
Writings, and we interpret those Writings individually.
Our views hopefully agree with the Baha'i Writings, if we are Baha'is,
but they do not necessarily agree with other Baha'is, even if those
Baha'is are members of auspicious administrative bodies.
Perhaps you missed the examples I gave earlier in this thread:
Me: "There is no magic, no special dispensation for evil people,
taciturn people, silly people, people committed to pleasing their
group with words but with their deeds show no care for their
neighbors, who believe they are special not because of what they do,
but because they know a magic word."
Me: "..your kind who cannot include people who want love, unity,
justice, virtue, and personal initiative in their religions because
they believe in God instead of Baha'u'llah, His Religion and not the
Baha'i Faith, The Day Star of Truth and not some person's name.
People who stifle and contain and stop the growth of wonder,
astonishment, justice and truth and call it "obedience" to the
administration, when no such administration exists. The limits are in
their minds, not in the World of God."
And in the Shining Spark of Truth thread:
Me: 'those who believe, wrongly, that there will be one world Baha'i
government one day... There are so many examples of what main stream
Baha'is accept that are just oh so wrong. I mean all religions accept
such foolishness, prayer will cure cancer, calamities, all sorts of
magic ... But these people who are so wrong think they own the Baha'i
Faith and create doctrinal divisions and tensions."
And in the Baha'i Faith and Homosexuals thread:
Me: "..why Baha'is can see "Be generous" and say that is not a law,
but cutting one's hair is a law. How guidance is different from a
command. And that which was sent down in clouds of glory should be
analyzed for gematria and correlation with pearls of wisdom, but never
guide one's behavior."
And from the Is It Possible thread:
Me: "From my experience, spirituality and virtue has more to do with
Baha'i teachings than materialism, however Baha'is seem to ignore
those things and talk about calamity, materialism and such."
You:
> "The Baha'i view" or "standpoint" is that which is derived from the
> Writings of the Faith.
Then there are several Baha'i views one every issue, and many of them
are nonsensical. The most well-known ones are about women on the
House of Justice and homosexuality. I have my favorites, I am sure
you have yours.
You:
> For
> instance, the Faith teaches the essential oneness of humankind.
I have known Baha'is who have taught that we should all intermarry
racially to achieve the oneness of humanity. Is that the Baha'i
view? I don't think so, but according to your explanation it could
be.
You:
> Or
> the Faith teaches that each human being is, in essence, an immortal
> soul.
From my perspective that is a tautology. The soul is the essence, by
definition. So each human being is its essence or soul. As that soul
is not the body it is therefore not physical, not mortal. Is my view
then the Baha'i view?
The point is, Suzanne, those who share Baha'i views, who understand
perfectly the Religion of God and know His Truth and reflect that
Truth with their lives, their deeds, their love of humanity... These
people who are the epitome of the Baha'i teachings are disgusted by
the Baha'i Faith. And the Baha'is don't want them.
Thanks for reading. --Kent
Suzanne Gerstner
I'm very well, thanks, Kent.
Kent: <The point is, Suzanne, those who share Baha'i views, who understand
perfectly the Religion of God and know His Truth and reflect that Truth with
their lives, their deeds, their love of humanity... These people who are
the epitome of the Baha'i teachings are disgusted by the Baha'i Faith. And
the Baha'is don't want them.>>
Personally I find this offensive, Kent, and not worth debating. I would
agree with you, however, that your view and mine seem to be poles apart, and
since we both call ourselves Baha'is, then our views don't match. We can't
say that we have one shared view.
To repeat, though, Shoghi Effendi and 'Abdu'l-Baha use the phrase "Baha'i
view" without any qualms, and they meant the teachings espoused in our
Faith. So I think that Baha'is can feel free to use this phrase too as long
as they are talking about the actual teachings of the Faith and not their
own quirky beliefs that have nothing to do with the teachings.
Examples: "In the Baha'i view, all humanity is one." In the Baha'i view,
all the religions came originally from the same God." "In the Baha'i view,
there is only one race, the human race."
Suzanne
compx2
> Personally I find this offensive, Kent, and not worth debating.
I understand. That is how I find most Baha'is hear these challenges.
But I urge you to consider the next time you talk with a member of
another religion, a committed, virtuous, devoted follower of God as he/
she understands Him.... When you talk to someone like that watch her/
his eyes when you mention Baha'u'llah or 'Abdu'l-Baha or the Bab...
On the other hand, if you don't mention the Names, but rather stick to
the sentiments, the words, the ideas, the actions you will find
complete agreement.
You recently quoted Shoghi Effendi saying that the way 'Abdu'l-Baha
approached the public was unsurpassed. I believe one reason was
because He would substitute the words Religion of God or Daystar of
Truth or Ancient of Days where Baha'is say the Baha'i Faith or the
Name of a Central Figure.
If we could stick to the spiritual instead of the material Baha'i
Faith we would be in complete agreement, you and I, Suzanne.
I think you and I mean different things when we say The Baha'i Faith,
but the same thing when we say the Religion of God, for example.
In my religion, God said "Noble I created thee" is unarguable and a
fine idea to consider. But to say "Baha'u'llah said "Noble I created
thee" brings to the table a lot of open-ended ideas that will need to
be explained, usually badly.
In my opinion we don't want to change people's religions. We want to
inspire them to do God's work, as they themselves understand that
work.
--Kent
On Jun 29, 3:03 am, "Suzanne Gerstner" <sb.gerst...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> Hi Kent,
>
> I'm very well, thanks, Kent.
>
> Kent: <The point is,Suzanne, those who share Baha'i views, who underst
Suzanne
<The point is,Suzanne, those who share Baha'i views, who underst
and
> perfectly the Religion of God and know His Truth and reflect that Truth w
ith
> their lives, their deeds, their love of humanity... These people who a
re
> the epitome of the Baha'i teachings are disgusted by the Baha'i Faith.
And
> the Baha'is don't want them.>>
Suzanne said:
<<I find that statement offensive>>
Kent wrote:
> I understand. That is how I find most Baha'is hear these challenges.
I have to say, Kent, it was a very confusing statement you made. I
actually understood your statement in a very different way than you
apparently intended. It sounded like you were saying that people who
are the only true Baha'is are not Baha'is, and they find the Baha'i
Faith (the Faith of Baha'u'llah) disgusting, and Baha'is also reject
them. Just a whole lot of negativity!
However, even if you mean that we should never say the names Baha'i,
Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi or the Baha'i Faith to
spiritual people who have their own religion, I find that equally
wrong. It seems you are trying to encourage Baha'is never to teaching
the Faith directly. If nobody every says the names of the central
Figures of our Faith or lets people know that the beautiful sentiments
which they agree with have a Source, how will other people ever know
them? They will always sound strange.
Do you really think that God never wants humanity to know the name of
His new Manifestation?
Kent wrote:
<<I urge you to consider the next time you talk with a member of
another religion, a committed, virtuous, devoted follower of God as
he/
she understands Him.... When you talk to someone like that watch her/
his eyes when you mention Baha'u'llah or 'Abdu'l-Baha or the Bab... >>
I've done this many times, Kent, and I always look into people's
faces, and I've never experienced the "disgust" you mention. If I
did, I would hold my peace though.
The first time I taught the Faith directly to a devout Christian was
to a friend. Many times I offered to watch her children for her, and
she asked me about my religion, so I told her. I saw her go from
surprise and curiosity to real interest, and finally, after three
years of many long discussions and attending firesides, she declared.
Her daughter is also a Baha'i now, and her son has been raised with
Baha'i values. She also has taught Baha'i children's classes for many
years.
Since then I have run study circles and children's classes with my
Christian neighbors. They too have found it interesting, and have
asked many questions about Baha'u'llah. None of them have ever seemed
the slightest "disgusted." I also used to run a regular "unity feast"
with my friends from all different religions. They all were mildly
intersted and became friends of the Faith.
And just recently I have taken part in direct teaching campaigns in my
area. I have presented the Faith directly to people from Jewish,
Christian, Hindu and Muslim background. Once again, there was
absolutely no "disgust", but rather interest, respect and curiosity.
Of course I will never speak unless someone shows interest, and then I
will try to say less rather than more until they are truly curious
themselves. I would never force the teachings on anyone. But I am
not at all shy to speak about the Faith directly when I feel someone
might be interested, and to challenge people to investigate the
possibility that God has again spoken to humanity through a human
Mouthpiece.
If you have had negative experiences when you have spoken directly
about the Faith to people of other Faiths, I would suggest it may have
been something in the presentation. We often don't realize how much
of our own experiences are created by our own selves -- by our
approach to others and our expectations.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
compx2
I don't believe I said "never"or "nobody" and the negativity was all
yours.
I believe I said that one should watch the eyes of a committed
religionist when trying to convert her/him. My point is that we are
not trying to convert. We are trying to do God's work. At least that
is what my religion teaches, and I learned my religion from the Baha'i
teachings. I find it less and less coinciding with the way Baha'is
act. I also try not to mis-characterize what others say.
"It sounded like you were saying..."
Do you think you can get past that? I would love to talk about what I
was saying, but not about what it sounded like to you.
Me: "These people who are the epitome of the Baha'i teachings are
disgusted by the Baha'i Faith."
Can Baha'i get past the Name of God and instead look at His
attributes? His teachings? If someone does a good deed, can we see
that and think it is a good thing done for God and be happy for that?
Can we encourage such things even if they are not done by Baha'is?
> If you have had negative experiences when you have spoken directly
> about the Faith to people of other Faiths, I would suggest it may have
> been something in the presentation.
I invited Baha'is from other towns to speak to an Interfaith group.
Apparently they expected to convert these people overnight. The
Interfaith group was not disgusted, but I was. Every group we invite
to speak to us tries to convert us, generally. The precise instant
that the presenter tries to convert, eyes glaze, and people become
impatient. Can't we talk about these teachings?
> Do you really think that God never wants humanity to know the name of
> His new Manifestation?
I honestly don't think the name matters. The teachings, however, are
all important.
--Kent
Douglas McAdam
the subject of converts here are but two quotes to consider. Also we
might consider how our Universal House of Justice has given us plans
for increasing our numbers.
1922. As to his question about the permissibility of promulgating the
divine teachings without relating them to the Most Great Name, you
should answer: "This blessed Name hath an effect on the reality of
things. If these teachings are spread without identifying them with
this holy Name, they will fail to exert an abiding influence in the
world. The teachings are like the body, and this holy Name is like the
spirit. It imparteth life to the body. It causeth the people of the
world to be aroused from their slumber."(From a Tablet - translated
from the Persian)
"The translation and publication of Bahá'í literature in the
European and American Indian languages, allocated to your Assembly and
its European Teaching Committee under the provisions of the Ten-Year
Plan, is yet another objective of this second phase of this World
Crusade, at ask that must be resolutely pursued and speedily
consummated in order to facilitate the intensive teaching activity
which, at a later stage, must be conducted for the purpose of
converting a considerable number of the minority races in both Europe
and America to the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh."(Shoghi Effendi, Citadel of
Faith, p. 129)
“The second of these spiritual standards which apply to the possessor
of knowledge is that he should be the defender of his faith. It is
obvious that these holy words do not refer exclusively to searching
out the implications of the Law, observing the forms of worship,
voiding greater and lesser sins, practicing the religious ordinances,
and by all these methods, protecting the Faith. They mean rather that
the whole population should be protected in every way; that every
effort should be exerted to adopt a combination of all possible
measures to raise up the Word of God, increase the number of
believers, promote the Faith of God and exalt it and make it
victorious over other religions. If, indeed, the Muslim religious
authorities had persevered along these lines as they ought to have
done, by now every nation on earth would have been gathered into the
shelter of the unity of God and the bright fire of "that He may make
it victorious over every other religion"
*23 would have flamed out like the sun in the midmost heart of the
world.
*23- Qu'ran 9:33;48:28,61:19 Abdu’l-Baha) page 41, Secret of Divine
Civilization
Also I would like to point out that we have numerous quotes saying the
purpose God has created souls is so they can know and worship Him.
That means each soul has the capacity to know and love God. However
the outer and old world conditioned person often has ego problems that
can block this inner capacity to know and love God, to recognize the
Manifestation and accept the Teachings which is one reason why we must
find ways to reach hearts through their minds. At first they might
argue and reject but if we exemplify the Teachings then maybe in time
the soul will take overcome the outer persons rejection.
regards,
doug
Suzanne
approached the public was unsurpassed. I believe one reason was
because He would substitute the words Religion of God or Daystar of
Truth or Ancient of Days where Baha'is say the Baha'i Faith or the
Name of a Central Figure.>>
I decided to do an independent search on this subject to see if
'Abdu'l-Baha refrained from mentioning the name of Baha'u'llah when He
was speaking with religionists. First I did a word search in
Promulgations of Universal Peace for the name, Baha'u'llah and got 391
hits. Then I looked through the physical book to see how He spoke to
people of various Faiths, since it's possible that He was only
speaking about BAha'u'llah to Baha'is. 'Abdu'l-Baha often spoke of
Baha'u'llah to people from all backgrounds, including religionists.
He's a passage from the very first talk He gave at a church in the
U.S. a couple of days after His arrival in New York in 1912:
"In Persia among the various religions and sects there were
intense differences. Baha'u'llah appeared in that country and founded
the spiritual civilization. He established affiliation among the
various peoples, promoted the oneness of the human world and unfurled
the banner of the Most Great Peace. He wrote special Epistles
covering these facts to all the kings and rulers of nations. Sixty
years ago He conveyed His message to the leaders of the political
world and to high dignitaries of the spiritual world. Therefore,
spiritual civilization is progressing in the Orient, and oneness of
humanity and peace among the nations is being accomplished step by
step. Now I find a strong movement for universal peace emanating from
America. It is my hope that this standard of the oneness of the world
of humanity may be upraised with the utmost solidity so that the
Orient and Occident may become perfectly reconciled and attain
complete intercommunication, the hearts of the East and West become
united and attracted, real union become unveiled, the light of
guidance shine, divine effulgences be seen day by day so that the
world of humanity may find complete tranquillity, the eternal
happiness of man become evident and the hearts of the people of the
world be as mirrors in which the rays of the Sun of Reality may be
reflected. Consequently, it is my request that you should strive so
that the light of reality may shine and the everlasting felicity of
the world of man become apparent.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Pages: 12-13)
And here's a passage from a talk He gave on the same day at a Union
Meeting of Advanced Thought Center in Carnegie Lyceum:
In the Orient there were great differences among races and peoples.
They hated each other, and there was no association among them.
Various and divergent sects were hostile, irreconcilable. The
different races were in constant war and conflict. About sixty years
ago Baha'u'llah appeared upon the eastern horizon. He caused love and
unity to become manifest among these antagonistic peoples. He united
them with the bond of love; their former hatred and animosity passed
away; love and unity reigned instead. It was a dark world; it became
radiant. A new springtime appeared through Him, for the Sun of Truth
had risen again. In the fields and meadows of human hearts variegated
flowers of inner significance were blooming, and the good fruits of
the Kingdom of God became manifest.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Pages: 15-16)
And this is from His talk at the Bowery Mission in New YOrk:
Praise be to God! Our hope is in the mercy of God, and there is no
doubt that the divine compassion is bestowed upon the poor. Jesus
Christ said so; Baha'u'llah said so. While Baha'u'llah was in
Baghdad, still in possession of great wealth, He left all He had and
went alone from the city, living two years among the poor. They were
His comrades. He ate with them, slept with them and gloried in being
one of them. He chose for one of His names the title of The Poor One
and often in His Writings refers to Himself as Darvish, which in
Persian means poor; and of this title He was very proud. He
admonished all that we must be the servants of the poor, helpers of
the poor, remember the sorrows of the poor, associate with them; for
thereby we may inherit the Kingdom of heaven.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 33)
One of His purposes, it seems from looking through these talks, was
first to re-introduce people to the essential teachings of their own
Manifestation of God, and then to introduce the name, Mission,
Teachings and life of Baha'u'llah to people of all backgrounds,
including religionists of various Faiths, and to help people to
connect with Baha'u'llah in a loving, positive way.
Suzanne
Suzanne
attributes? His teachings? If someone does a good deed, can we see
that and think it is a good thing done for God and be happy for that?
I have always believed in the oneness of humanity, long before I was a
Baha'i. What that means to me is that God loves everybody, no matter
what their religion is. The name isn't so important to God. The
purity of heart is. Are good deeds from people who don't call
themselves Baha'is important. Yes, of course they are.
> I honestly don't think the name matters. The teachings, however, are
> all important.
It's not about the name mattering. It's the teachings, but equally
it's about connecting hearts with Baha'u'llah. He is, after all, the
Manifestation of God for this Day, and it's important that people come
to know and love Him. When this occurs, then they become much more
intersted in reading the Writings of God which have been revealed for
this Day. As Baha'u'llah said:
"... The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can
never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be
anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center
your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements."
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 213)
Baha'u'llah has given us the remedy for this age we are living in, and
that's important.
Suzanne
Suzanne
We should not, however, dispute with them over where they
> found the Truth of God. We should, rather, join them in their own Truth.
Agreed.
Suzanne wrote:
> You: "...it's about connecting hearts with Baha'u'llah."
Kent wrote:
> I say, it is about connecting hearts with God as these people themselves
> understand God.
If they already have an understanding of God and they love Him, then
we don't need to be any part of connecting them with God. It's
already done. Right?
Kent wrote:
> In my opinion, it is extremely important that Baha'is stop disputing, with
> me about how I understand God, with Christians about how they understand
> God, with others about what they understand.
I agree that Baha'is should not dispute with anybody. In fact it's
forbidden in our Faith and does great harm to it:
"Nothing whatever can, in this Day, inflict a greater harm upon this
Cause than dissension and strife, contention, estrangement and apathy,
among the loved ones of God."
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 9)
Kent:
If Baha'is want membership, if
> the world is going to be inspired by any religion at all, we must allow
> people to understand what they understand.
Agreed.
Kent wrote:
> Those who think homosexuality means homosexual marriage cannot be
> considered, neither can those who believe in women on the highest bodies of
> administration. Why? Not because of the Baha' i teachings, but because of
> Baha'i intolerance, our insistence on our own explanations of the matters
> brought to us. We can't let anyone make their own decisions.
I'm not sure what you mean. When you say "we", who do you mean? Do
you mean Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal
House of Justice, because they are the ones who made, interpretted and
elucidated the laws. Not us. We just follow what they say.
Suzanne wrote:
"Baha'u'llah has given us the remedy for this age we are living in,
and
> that's important."
Kent:
>
> If we were living that remedy we would show it was for this age. Since we
> are not, the point is moot. Perhaps some day, but I am afraid it is quite
> late for us to start. Our religion is less about the teachings in our
> personal lives and more about the administration and what we call teaching
> which is really telling people our own personal understandings. It is more
> about excluding those who don't believe as we think other Baha'is think.
Really? I thought our religion was about love, unity and submission
to the Will of God.
Kent:
> Less of that and more encouragement of others when they do good things for
> God and this Faith of God will grow.
I think it's admirable that you feel such love and unity with all the
people's of the earth, but aren't Baha'is part of the whole? Don't
they too deserve that love and encouragement?
Suzanne