Another question about "hell"
mike3
I saw this quote:
"The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one
and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are
united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however,
must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the
same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity,
character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade,
however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of
estimating the merits, of those that rank above them."
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Selection LXXXVI, pp.
169-170)
But what determines this "grade"? Is it fixed and unchangeable? Also,
if one is sufficiently "low" in this "grade" then is one in some sort
of miserable state? If _both_ are so, then it would seem a permanent
miserable state is possible, and so for a number of people that might
be larger than one thinks, there is little hope... eternal hell -- but
that seems too dark! What's up here?
Suzanne
Mike3 wrote:
> But what determines this "grade"?
It says in the passage that the grade is determined by their faith and
conduct.
Mike3:
>Is it fixed and unchangeable?
No. Heaven and hell are defined in the Baha'i Writings as the
spiritual states of being near or far from God. We will spend all
eternity growing nearer to God. So there's nothing there are
permanent hell.
Mike3:
> Also,
> if one is sufficiently "low" in this "grade" then is one in some sort
> of miserable state?
Possibly, but the next sentence after the last one you cited was:
"Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that
hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love,
until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of
all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 170)
As far as I can see from the passage, the fact that some people are of
a lower grade doesn't mean they are miserable. Just that they aren't
necessarily in the Concourse on High. At least not yet.
Mike3:
> If _both_ are so, then it would seem a permanent
> miserable state is possible, and so for a number of people that might
> be larger than one thinks, there is little hope... eternal hell -- but
> that seems too dark! What's up here?
I don't know, Mike. I have the feeling that you are being influenced
by Christian ideas about eternal damnation. Not all passages are
about a positive afterlife. For instance, Baha'u'llah says:
"The souls of the infidels, however, shall -- and to this I bear
witness -- when breathing their last be made aware of the good things
that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall
humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the
separation of their souls from their bodies."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 170)
This sounds very bad, but do you see anything in the above passage
about this state being permanent?
Best wishes,
Suzanne
mike3
> Mike3 wrote:
> > But what determines this "grade"?
>
> It says in the passage that the grade is determined by their faith and
> conduct.
>
Because at one point he says "state", the next "grade", and I wasn't
sure if they referred to the same thing.
And if it's determined by "conduct" which I presume equals the
conduct done here in the material universe, then upon exiting this
material universe at death (or at least not being bound by it any
more),
that becomes firm as no more can be done to it, and I thought that
because of that, the "grade" is therefore no longer subject to change,
and so if a sufficiently low "grade" were attained then one is "stuck"
with it forever and if that type of condition is miserable, then this
becomes a sort of "eternal hell". But maybe that's not so.
> Mike3:
>
> >Is it fixed and unchangeable?
>
> No. Heaven and hell are defined in the Baha'i Writings as the
> spiritual states of being near or far from God. We will spend all
> eternity growing nearer to God. So there's nothing there are
> permanent hell.
>
Ah. So then could the "grade" be advanced?
> Mike3:
>
> > Also,
> > if one is sufficiently "low" in this "grade" then is one in some sort
> > of miserable state?
>
> Possibly, but the next sentence after the last one you cited was:
>
> "Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that
> hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love,
> until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of
> all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.
> (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah,
p. 170)
>
> As far as I can see from the passage, the fact that some people are of
> a lower grade doesn't mean they are miserable. Just that they aren't
> necessarily in the Concourse on High. At least not yet.
>
So this is not necessarily related to hell. But I was thinking that
maybe
if the grade was low _enough_, then it could be miserable, hence hell,
and so if this grade cannot be advanced, that would equal eternal
hell.
> Mike3:
>
> > If _both_ are so, then it would seem a permanent
> > miserable state is possible, and so for a number of people that might
> > be larger than one thinks, there is little hope... eternal hell -- but
> > that seems too dark! What's up here?
>
> I don't know, Mike. I have the feeling that you are being influenced
> by Christian ideas about eternal damnation. Not all passages are
> about a positive afterlife. For instance, Baha'u'llah says:
>
> "The souls of the infidels, however, shall -- and to this I bear
> witness -- when breathing their last be made aware of the good things
> that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall
> humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the
> separation of their souls from their bodies."
> (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah,
p. 170)
>
> This sounds very bad, but do you see anything in the above passage
> about this state being permanent?
>
No. So then "hell" may exist, but that doesn't imply "eternal hell".
Note
the "eternal" qualifier.
compx2
You: "We will spend all eternity growing nearer to God."
I don't believe the Writings bears up this sentiment. Although it is
possible after passing on to continue to progress toward God, I don't
think such progress is said to be inevitable.
But I have been wrong before.
--Kent
Suzanne
Kent:
> I don't believe the Writings bears up this sentiment. Although it is
> possible after passing on to continue to progress toward God, I don't
> think such progress is said to be inevitable.
>
> But I have been wrong before.
>
> --Kent
Hi Kent,
Definitely different souls will have vastly different receptions in
the next world. As Baha'u'llah says in Gleanings:
"It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical
death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their
hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the
horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true
God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such
joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that
live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall
be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 170)
I could be wrong, but I believe that all will ultimately progress. We
have this passage:
"And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its
survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its
separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth
the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the
revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this
world, can alter..."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 155)
The above seems to be generic. It's not about certain souls
progressing and others not progressing. Progress can be fast or slow,
pain free or exceedingly painful, but as there is no time in the next
world and no physical bodies, I have no idea how this works. It is,
of course, way better for the state of our souls if we do not "live in
error" in this life but follow the guidance of the Manifestation of
God.
But I do believe that God is All-Loving, All-Merciful and forgiving
and can change the state of those who died in sin and error. As
'Abdu'l-Baha says in a prayer:
"Although some souls have spent the days of their lives in ignorance,
and became estranged and contumacious, yet, with one wave from the
ocean of Thy forgiveness, all those encompassed by sin will be set
free."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Baha'i Prayers (US edition), Page: 47)
I wouldn't recommend living "in error" in the expectation of this,
however. As it says in a letter written on behalf of the Guardian,
"We must be hopeful of God's mercy, but not impose upon it." (Lights
of Guidance, Page: 366)
All the best,
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
Here is an excerpt from a wonderful book that shows how Baha'i
Teachings treat many subjects that have been the object of
misinterpretations. It is long but I felt it would answer your
questions.
Enjoy,
doug
BAHÁ’Í EXPLANATION OF HEAVEN AND HELL
1. A "Paradise" and a "Hell" are found in this world and the next just
as the Bible indicates: (See Hell is Not a Literal Place, p 94, and
Heaven is Not a Literal Place, p 96) "The immortality of the spirit is
mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine
religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds:
first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the
other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all
the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly
worlds, (emphasis added) Gaining these rewards is the gaining of
eternal life. That is why Christ said 'Act in such a way that you may
find eternal life, and that you may be bom of water and the spirit, so
that you may enter into the Kingdom'" (saq, p 223)
2. The Rewards or Spiritual "Paradise" of this world: "The rewards of
this iife are the virtues and perfections which adorn the reality of
man. For example...he was earthly, and he becomes heavenly; he was
material and becomes spiritual. Through these rewards he gains
spiritual birth and becomes a new creature. He becomes the
manifestation of the verse in the Gospel where it is said of the
disciples that they were bom not of blood, nor of the will of the
flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:13): that is to say,
they were delivered from the animal characteristics and qualities
which are the characteristics of human nature, and they became
qualified with the divine characteristics, which are the bounty of
God." (0p Cit, p 223). [Accepting Christ and the Return of Christ into
a soul's life therefore allows a spiritual rebirth that brings
spiritual "virtues and perfections" which lead to spiritual
fulfillment and true happiness: "For those who live according to the
flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live
according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally
minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Rom
8:5-6)]
3. The punishment or the hell of this world: "For such people, there
is no greater torture than being veiled from God, and no more severe
punishment than sensual vices, dark qualities, lowness of nature,
engrossment in carnal desires.. .they consider that the spiritual
punishment, that is to say the torture and punishment of existence, is
to be subjected to the world of nature, to be veiled from God, ...to
fall into carnal lusts; ...being immersed in satanic ideas; for them
these are the greatest punishments and tortures." (Op Cit, p 224) [To
be "veiled from God," to not recognize and follow the divine guidance
of Christ and the Return of Christ, is a spiritual punishment and a
hell in itself while living this earthly life: "For if you live
according to the flesh., you will die; but if by the Spirit, you put
to death the deeds of the body, you will live." (Rom 8:13)
BAHÁ’Í EXPLANATION OF HEAVEN AND HELL (continued)
4. The Rewards or Spiritual "Paradise of Heaven: "Likewise, the
rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly
mentioned in all the Holy Books...The rewards of the other world are
peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the
Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul,
and the meeting of God in the world of eternity." (Op Cit, p 224)
[Christ promises the criminal who accepts him as they both were being
crucified: "Today thou shalt be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)]
"For just as the effects and the fruitage of the uterine life are not
to be found in that dark and narrow place, and only when the child is
transferred to this wide earth do the benefits and uses of growth and
development in that previous world become revealed—so likewise reward
and punishment, heaven and hell, requittal and retribution for actions
done in this present life, will stand revealed in that other world
beyond." (swab, p 185) [Again, as taught in the Bible, our actions in
this world bring "reward and punishment," "heaven and hell" in the
next world.]
5. The "Punishment" or the "Hell" of the next world: "In the same way,
the
punishments of the other world, that is to say, the torments of the
other world, consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings
and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of
existence. He who is deprived of these divine favours, although he
continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of
truth." (saq, p 225) [Paul refers to the condition of being
"considered as dead" by similarly describing unresurrected souls as
"asleep" (1 Cor 15:51)] (See #7 Hell is Not a Literal Place, p. 95,)
Bahá’u’lláh states: "Where is Paradise, and where is Hell? Say:
The
one is reunion with Me, the other thine own self (tb, p 118) which
could apply to both this world and the next as indicated in both the
Bible and Bahá’í Scriptures. Accepting Christ and the Return of
Christ
is "heaven" in both this world and the next, while rejecting leaves a
soul without the Word of God, in the greatest "tribulation" (Matt
24:21) and the greatest "famine...of hearing the words of the Lord
" (Amos 8:11), and the "hell" of the pursuit of selfish desires as
indicated in both the Bible and Bahá’í Scripture.]
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 15, 2009, at 2:52 PM, mike3 wrote:
>> Mike3:
>>
>> >Is it fixed and unchangeable?
>>
>> No. Heaven and hell are defined in the Baha'i Writings as the
>> spiritual states of being near or far from God. We will spend all
>> eternity growing nearer to God. So there's nothing there are
>> permanent hell.
>>
>
> Ah. So then could the "grade" be advanced?
Hi Mike-
I don't have time to find and post relevant quotes but I do think that
logically we can say that if God has created us to know and worship
Him then we can deduce that we will forever advance. The difference,
according to my understanding of the Writings, is that the body
returns to the earth and recycles so to speak while the soul
progresses into the eternal Worlds of God but at His Mercy and not by
our choice. Here we have a choice, our free will to choose to advance
and progress by acquiring virtues or not but in the next world only
the virtues go forward and the soul advances only by God's Mercy, not
by our own choice. Analogies are not truly representative of the
reality of things but in a way they can get an idea across and I think
about a baby in the womb of the mother. It has no choice but to obey
natural law. The mother has a choice about how good this newborn will
enter this world and survive. If the mother does not herself follow
natural and spiritual laws then the child will be born with limited
capacity and powers and its progress in this world will be limited.
Although a soul may enter the next world with limited virtues, having
not been entirely obedient in this world, the Mercy of God will
continue to advance it by His Will not that of the soul.
Like I said there are many quotes regarding the progress of the soul
in this and the next world but the gist of it to me is that we are
created to Know and Worship God and thus this will continue forever
for we can never fully know anything, let alone God.
regards,
doug
Douglas McAdam
Strange thing happened after I wrote you saying I had no time to find
all the relevant quotes regarding the progress of the soul for just a
minute ago I happened to be looking for something else and lo and
behold a book I have caught my attention and I copied a few relevant
quotes and there are more but these should suffice I think.
#575. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its
separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth
the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the
revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this
world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His
sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the
signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving-kindness
and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to
befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station.
The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as
no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency
describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation
from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples
of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the
Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Selection LXXXI, pp.
155-156
#576. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will
assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of
its celestial habitation. Such an existence is a contingent and not an
absolute existence, inasmuch as the former is preceded by a cause,
whilst the latter is independent thereof.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Selection LXXXI, p.
157
#577. Thou hast, moreover, asked Me concerning the state of
the soul after its separation from the body. Know thou, of a truth,
that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will,
assuredly, return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved. By the
righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can
depict, or tongue describe. The soul that hath remained faithful to
the Cause of God, and stood unwaveringly firm in His Path shall, after
his ascension, be possessed of such power that all the worlds which
the Almighty hath created can benefit through him. Such a soul
provideth, at the bidding of the Ideal King and Divine Educator, the
pure leaven that leaveneth the world of being, and furnisheth the
power through which the arts and wonders of the world are made
manifest. Consider how meal needeth leaven to be leavened with. Those
souls that are the symbols of detachment are the leaven of the world.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Selection LXXXII, p.
161
#578. ....concerning thy question whether human souls
continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from
the body. Know thou that the souls of the people of Bahá, who have
entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate
and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely
associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings
as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-
informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding.
Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one
and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are
united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however,
must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the
same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity,
character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade,
however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of
estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall
receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned
his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his
soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the
Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.
The souls of the infidels, however, shall—and to this I bear witness—
when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have
escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble
themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the
separation of their souls from their bodies.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Selection LXXXVI,
pp.
169-171
#579. ….all men shall, after their physical death, estimate
the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have
wrought….They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the
moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness
as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error
shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with
such consternation, as nothing can exceed.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Selection LXXXVI, p.
171
[From the Talks of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá:]
#580. It is even possible that the condition of those who
have died in sin and unbelief may become changed—that is to say, they
may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through
His justice—for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving
what is deserved. As we have power to pray for these souls here, so
likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is
the Kingdom of God. Are not all the people in that world the creatures
of God? Therefore, in that world also they can make progress. As here
they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can
plead for forgiveness and receive light through entreaties and
supplications. Thus as souls in this world, through the help of the
supplications, the entreaties and the prayers of the holy ones, can
acquire development, so is it the same after death. Through their own
prayers and supplications they can also progress, more especially when
they are the object of the intercession of the Holy Manifestations.
Some Answered Questions, Chapter 62: “Perfections are without Limit”,
p. 232
#581. ….movement is necessary to existence, which is either
growing or declining. Now, as the spirit continues to exist after
death, it necessarily progresses or declines; and in the other world
to cease to progress is the same as to decline; but it never leaves
its own condition, in which it continues to develop.
Some Answered Questions, Chapter 63: “The Progress of Man in the Other
World”, p. 233
#582. The progress of man’s spirit in the divine world,
after the severance of its connection with the body of dust, is
through the bounty and grace of the Lord alone, or through the
intercession and the sincere prayers of other human souls, or through
the charities and important good works which are performed in its name.
Some Answered Questions, Chapter 66: “The Existence of the Rational
Soul after the Death of the Body”, p. 240
[From the unauthenticated Talks of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá:]
#583. As to the soul of man after death, it remains in the
degree of purity to which it has evolved during life in the physical
body, and after it is freed from the body it remains plunged in the
ocean of God’s Mercy.
From the moment the soul leaves the body and arrives in the Heavenly
World, its evolution is spiritual, and that evolution is: The
approaching unto God.
Paris Talks, “3 November 1911, The Evolution of Matter and Development
of the Soul”, p. 66
#584. The very fact that our spiritual instinct, surely
never given in vain, prompts us to pray for the welfare of those, our
loved ones, who have passed out of the material world: does it not
bear witness to the continuance of their existence?
Paris Talks, “10 November 1911, The Evolution of the Spirit, 15 Rue
Greuze”, p. 90
[From the unauthenticated Writings or Talks of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá:]
#585. As to the question whether the souls will recognize
each other in the spiritual world: This fact is certain; for the
Kingdom is the world of vision where all the concealed realities will
become disclosed. How much more the well-known souls will become
manifest. The mysteries of which man is heedless in this earthly
world, those he will discover in the heavenly world, and there will he
be informed of the secret of truth; how much more will he recognize or
discover persons with whom he hath been associated.
Bahá’í World Faith, p. 367
mike3
Well of course not, but one should also not live their life filled
with fear about "hell"
either like some Christian preachers try to instill.
I suppose then as there's lots of different levels of progress, this
also answers
my previous questions about what happens to the good-hearted soul who
wants
to help the whole world but never heard of the messenger and if they'd
be "zeroed out" with no progress and in the same boat as a cruel
dictator
or something. I guess the answer would likely be "no", they wouldn't
be in the
same boat.
mike3
wrote:
<snip>
Thank you for your response, though it doesn't quite address the
questions I had
about possible connections between "hell" and the "grade" that I
mentioned in the
starting post and if this "grade" can/can't be advanced.
Suzanne
>
> I suppose then as there's lots of different levels of progress, this
> also answers
> my previous questions about what happens to the good-hearted soul who
> wants
> to help the whole world but never heard of the messenger and if they'd
> be "zeroed out" with no progress and in the same boat as a cruel
> dictator
> or something. I guess the answer would likely be "no", they wouldn't
> be in the
> same boat.
I suppose then as there's lots of different levels of progress, this
also answers
my previous questions about what happens to the good-hearted soul who
wants
to help the whole world but never heard of the messenger and if they'd
be "zeroed out" with no progress and in the same boat as a cruel
dictator
or something. I guess the answer would likely be "no", they wouldn't
be in the
same boat.
Hi Mike3,
No. God is not in any way a cruel dictator but is infinitely loving
and merciful. Shoghi Effendi says:
"... spiritual progress in the other world is limitless, and is not
confined to those who have attained unto the knowledge and recognition
of the Cause while still in this world."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual
believer, April 30, 1940; Lights of Guidance, p. 208)
I also thought this quote might interest you since it explains what
the "fear of God" is all about, and how God is not a tyrant:
"You ask him about the fear of God: perhaps the friends do not
realize that the majority of human beings need the element of fear in
order to discipline their conduct? Only a relatively very highly
evolved soul would always be disciplined by love alone. Fear of
punishment, fear of the anger of God if we do evil, are needed to keep
people's feet on the right path. Of course we should love God - but
we must fear Him in the sense of a child fearing the righteous anger
and chastisement of a parent; not cringe before Him as before a
tyrant, but know His mercy exceeds His Justice!"
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an
individual
believer, July 26, 1946: Baha'i Education, A Compilation,
compiled
by the Universal House of Justice: Lights of Guidance,
Page: 239)
Best wishes,
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
Hi Mike3-
Is this the post you were questioning---
> Because at one point he says "state", the next "grade", and I wasn't
> sure if they referred to the same thing.
>
> And if it's determined by "conduct" which I presume equals the
> conduct done here in the material universe, then upon exiting this
> material universe at death (or at least not being bound by it any
> more),
> that becomes firm as no more can be done to it, and I thought that
> because of that, the "grade" is therefore no longer subject to change,
> and so if a sufficiently low "grade" were attained then one is "stuck"
> with it forever and if that type of condition is miserable, then this
> becomes a sort of "eternal hell". But maybe that's not so.
I would say that by state is meant the state of the soul which is
described as being spiritual not material whereas the body is in a
material state. By grade is meant how that soul has progressed in
this world in terms of acquiring virtues and fulfilling its duty
towards God and humanity by acts of service. Those who are new to the
spiritual teachings obviously would be in a lower grade than those who
have spent years in obedience. It is sort of like school, those in
the early grades are lower than those in the higher learning. However
there could be souls who have been aware of the Manifestation for a
long time who are not in the same grade as one that is new but who is
more obedient.
Here is a quote that I have always favored -
"The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones.
" (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 126)g
In other words development is relative in each case.
regards,
doug
>
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 16, 2009, at 2:14 PM, mike3 wrote:
>>
>> I wouldn't recommend living "in error" in the expectation of this,
>> however. As it says in a letter written on behalf of the Guardian,
>> "We must be hopeful of God's mercy, but not impose upon it." (Lights
>> of Guidance, Page: 366)
>>
>
> Well of course not, but one should also not live their life filled
> with fear about "hell"
> either like some Christian preachers try to instill.
>
> I suppose then as there's lots of different levels of progress, this
> also answers
> my previous questions about what happens to the good-hearted soul who
> wants
> to help the whole world but never heard of the messenger and if they'd
> be "zeroed out" with no progress and in the same boat as a cruel
> dictator
> or something. I guess the answer would likely be "no", they wouldn't
> be in the
> same boat.
>
Hi Mike3-
Once again my recall from my own studies indicates all souls go
forward to the next world. The one quote that appears to come to mind
is one about a child born and lost in early years who cannot hear
about the Manifestation. They will get an opportunity in the next
world I understand.
regards,
doug
mike3
wrote:
You mention how it has progressed in _this_ world. So does that mean
that after death, this becomes fixed eternally, and so if it was very
low it
stays that way eternally, hence eternal hell, if a very low "grade"
brings
with it misery/pain/etc.?
[Mod: Several people have posted quotes indicating that all souls progress toward God continually after death]
mike3
On Aug 16, 9:59 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
mike3
wrote:
> On Aug 15, 2009, at 2:52 PM, mike3 wrote:
>
> >> Mike3:
>
> >> >Is it fixed and unchangeable?
>
> >> No. Heaven and hell are defined in the Baha'i Writings as the
> >> spiritual states of being near or far from God. We will spend all
> >> eternity growing nearer to God. So there's nothing there are
> >> permanent hell.
>
> > Ah. So then could the "grade" be advanced?
>
> Hi Mike-
> I don't have time to find and post relevant quotes but I do think that
> logically we can say that if God has created us to know and worship
> according to my understanding of the Writings, is that the body
> returns to the earth and recycles so to speak while the soul
> progresses into the eternal Worlds of God but at His Mercy and not by
> our choice. Here we have a choice, our free will to choose to advance
> and progress by acquiring virtues or not but in the next world only
> the virtues go forward and the soul advances only by God's Mercy, not
> by our own choice. Analogies are not truly representative of the
> reality of things but in a way they can get an idea across and I think
> about a baby in the womb of the mother. It has no choice but to obey
> natural law. The mother has a choice about how good this newborn will
> enter this world and survive. If the mother does not herself follow
> natural and spiritual laws then the child will be born with limited
> capacity and powers and its progress in this world will be limited.
> Although a soul may enter the next world with limited virtues, having
> not been entirely obedient in this world, the Mercy of God will
> continue to advance it by His Will not that of the soul.
> Like I said there are many quotes regarding the progress of the soul
> in this and the next world but the gist of it to me is that we are
> created to Know and Worship God and thus this will continue forever
> for we can never fully know anything, let alone God.
>
Thank you for your answer here. I have one quesiton: you say it
progresses
by the mercy of God alone: so does this mean that some soul who is in
a
low state of advance relative to others, though it progresses, the
others
are progressing as well, so it stays in this _relative_ low state
forever?
And if as you say the "heaven" and "hell" are relative, then does not
this
imply "relative" eternal hell? As you mentioned in one post:
mike3
Thanks for the answer.
Douglas McAdam
I'm not sure I can answer this but it makes sense to me that the
Writings say that all souls progress in the next world by the Mercy of
God and whether than means they will stay relatively in the same
condition to each other always is not something I can answer for I
suppose only God knows who He is advancing and why. The quote I
offered was to show that good and bad deeds are relative conditions.
For example a small child of two or three might enter the living room
nude where you have guests and the guests will twitter and exclaim
how cute the child is. But when that child becomes an adult and does
the same thing we would frown on its behavior for the adult should
know better.
regards,
doug
>
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 16, 2009, at 2:14 PM, mike3 wrote:
>>
>> I wouldn't recommend living "in error" in the expectation of this,
>> however. As it says in a letter written on behalf of the Guardian,
>> "We must be hopeful of God's mercy, but not impose upon it." (Lights
>> of Guidance, Page: 366)
>>
>
> Well of course not, but one should also not live their life filled
> with fear about "hell"
> either like some Christian preachers try to instill.
>
> I suppose then as there's lots of different levels of progress, this
> also answers
> my previous questions about what happens to the good-hearted soul who
> wants
> to help the whole world but never heard of the messenger and if they'd
> be "zeroed out" with no progress and in the same boat as a cruel
> dictator
> or something. I guess the answer would likely be "no", they wouldn't
> be in the
> same boat.
>
Hi Mike3-
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 17, 2009, at 2:46 PM, mike3 wrote:
I'm not sure I can answer this but it makes sense to me that the
Douglas McAdam
On Aug 17, 2009, at 2:46 PM, mike3 wrote:
I'm not sure I can answer this but it makes sense to me that the
compx2
"We will spend all eternity growing nearer to God" is not true to the
Baha'i Writings, although it is definitely true to standard Baha'i
thought, dogma, teachings etc.
I am not saying that we do not "grow" or progress when we pass on to
the next world.
Nor am I saying that some of us do and some of us don't. Nor am I
implying that you think the "we" who spend eternity growing are just
Baha'is, not members of other religions or those who do not believe in
such growth. I think we are agreed that all consciousness grows and
ends in the same ways.
What I am questioning is your implication that All ... Grow,,, for
Eternity. I don't think that is necessarily true. Some of us
stagnate or stay stationary, to use your imagery, for eternity, to use
your terminology. Some of us, perhaps all of us, lose ourselves,
become as nothing in comparison with the rest of existence for
eternity. One should not believe that our lives and accomplishments,
in comparison with all of existence for eternity, are comparable.
It seems an important point to me because people should not think
that, regardless of their actions in this world they will eventually,
sometime before eternity, join up with God and everything will be
okay.
As I said, it is an important issue to me that such platitudes and
incorrect understandings not be nodded into the Baha'i Faith just
because they are comforting.
You quoting Baha'u'llah:
> ...the soul, after its
> separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth
> the presence of God...
Attaining the presence of God is not the same as reunion with Him, or
necessarily a wonderful, warm, or comforting sensation. As one of
your other quotes suggests, some of us "shall be seized with such fear
and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing
can exceed".
I guess the question is if such presence, whether fearful or joyous,
can be said to be progress, necessarily. And if we serve the Baha'i
Faith by implying that it is.
--Kent
"Suzanne" <sb.ge...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:uvidncAMK4WwhhXX...@giganews.com...
Suzanne
or
necessarily a wonderful, warm, or comforting sensation. As one of
your other quotes suggests, some of us "shall be seized with such fear
and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing
can exceed". >>
I wouldn't say that souls who are "seized with trembling and
consternation" upon reaching the next world have "attained the
presence of God." Baha'u'llah says that heaven is neaness to God and
hell is being far from God, so I imagine those souls are far from God,
and not in His presence. I don't have any problem with believing in
souls being in a state of hell -- of being far from God -- both in
this world and in the next. I just have a problem with believing that
it's eternal. If you can find a passage that says it's eternal,
please share it here.
I wouldn't imagine that all souls progress quickly in the next world
either. Abdu'lBaha said that spiritual qualities are the limbs and
members we need to progress in the next world. I imagine that those
who don't develop those qualities are handicapped in the next world
and progress much more slowly, if at all. But there is the point that
God is All-loving and All-forgiving, as 'Abdu'l-Baha also said:
"Although some souls have spent the days of their lives in ignorance,
and became estranged and contumacious, yet, with one wave from the
ocean of Thy forgiveness, all those encompassed by sin will be set
free."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Baha'i Prayers (US edition), Page: 47)
From all I've read in the Writings, I can't believe that God who is
All-Loving, All-Merciful, and Ever-Forgiving would create a state of
eternal punishment for any soul.
None of us knows what will happen in the next world. We only know
what we've read in the Writings and how we've interpreted it, and
surely, whatever we believe, we're bound to be wrong. We have some
broad strokes ideas, but that's all. This is something we will have
to wait and find out.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
Suzanne
> The issue in my mind Suzanne, is that what you imply in your statement
> "We will spend all eternity growing nearer to God" is not true to the
> Baha'i Writings, although it is definitely true to standard Baha'i
> thought, dogma, teachings etc.
I don't know of any "standard Baha'i thoughts or dogmas" on this
subject. I get my own thoughts and inspirations directly from the
Baha'i Writings. I have been re-reading the compilation I have of
passages relating to the soul and its progress after death. Truly it
is 98% encouraging about souls progressing; especially the passages
from 'Abdu'l-Baha who is, after all, the Interpreter of the Word of
God. He knows better than we do what Baha'u'llah intended. . I could
cite many more quotes about the progress of souls, but I won't unless
you want me to.
However, just to give some balance, here are the ones I can find which
would support the view that not all souls progress:
"...Whoso hath failed to recognize Him [the Manifestation of God] will
have condemned himself to the misery of remoteness, a remoteness which
is naught but utter nothingness and the essence of the nethermost
fire. Such will be his fate, though to outward seeming he may occupy
the earth's loftiest seats and be established upon its most exalted
throne.
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Pages: 70-71)
Even though the above looks pretty bleak for those souls, there are
passages which say that the state of souls can be changed after
death. They can become the object of intercession of the
Manifestations of God. We can pray for them, do charitable works in
their names, they can suplicate God themselves and we can even teach
souls in the next world.
And, in Some Answered Questions 'Abdu'l-Baha speaks of the difference
between people who seem outwardly to be enemies of the Faith of God
through their actions, and yet are not, in reality, because once they
discover who the Manifestation of God really is, they become friends.
However, those souls who actually know the Manifestations of God and
hate the light, their own feelings of hatred does seem to create an
eternal state of hell:
"The meaning is this: to remain far from the light-holder does not
entail everlasting banishment, for one may become awakened and
vigilant; but enmity toward the light is the cause of everlasting
banishment, and for this there is no remedy."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 128)
This makes me think of this Hidden Word:
"Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in
no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."
(Baha'u'llah: Arabic Hidden Words, Page: 5)
The love and mercy of God surround all of us at all times, whoever we
may be, whatever we may believe. God wants us all to draw near to
Him. But if we don't love Him, and, in fact if we hate Him, then
there's nothing He can do to help us. We condemn our own selves to
remoteness, which is what hell is. But it isn't God who is condemning
us to eternal hell. It's us who are condemning our own selves, and we
can also change this at any time; whether in this world or in the
next, according to my reading of the Writings. And eternity is a long
time.
Best wishes,
Suzanne
compx2
considering all sides of this issue.
But I consider myself a Baha'i and I do not believe as you believe.
Our differences are fundamental. I can only hope that you will try to
see the issues as I do.
When you say "Manifestation of God" I am thinking of the meaning of
those words. Those words mean, variously, God on Earth, His
Evidences, His direct Influence, or a Man with a Name of God we should
worship and adore.
So, when you say someone has failed to recognize a Manifestation of
God, well, I hope you can see that I believe even those who call
Baha'u'llah by a name that is approved by the Baha'i Faith can have
failed to recognize Him.
Are we together on this issue so far?
--Kent
Suzanne
> But I consider myself a Baha'i and I do not believe as you believe.
> Our differences are fundamental. I can only hope that you will try to
> see the issues as I do.
I don't look to other Baha'is to interpret my Faith for me. I look
directly to the teachings of Baha'u'llah and to the interpretations of
'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. If you feel there are things I am
not understanding from the Baha'i Writings, then please cite your
references, and I will see how I understand them.
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
Along the idea of recognizing the Manifestation what does
Manifestation of God mean? What is the definition and explanation of
the word Manifestation?
How can one know if others have or have not recognized the
Manifestation?
regards,
doug
Suzanne
> How can one know if others have or have not recognized the
> Manifestation?
Why do we need to know that? Isn't that something personal between a
human soul and God?
And even if someone has recognized the Manifestation of God, that
doesn't mean that they will stay steadfast to the end, or that someone
else who hasn't recognized the Manifestation of God won't do so in
their final moments. As Baha'u'llah said:
"How often hath a sinner, at the hour of death, attained to the
essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his
flight unto the celestial Concourse. And how often hath a devout
believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to
fall into the nethermost fire."
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 194-195)
I believe that the purpose of the above quote is to keep us from
attempting to judge the state of another's soul or to think we know
what their (or our own) end will be.
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
Yes you are quite right but I was asking this in relation to what Kent
posted.
He said in response to your earlier post --
> So, when you say someone has failed to recognize a Manifestation of
> God, well, I hope you can see that I believe even those who call
> Baha'u'llah by a name that is approved by the Baha'i Faith can have
> failed to recognize Him.
However to me it is obvious that if a person, when confronted by the
knowledge of the Manifestation denies Him then we can say he did not
recognize Him.
For example can we say that the Jews did not recognize the
Manifestation of God Jesus? Don't the Baha'i Writings mention that
certain people had failed to recognize God's Manifestation?
regards,
doug
compx2
I think it is a very important question you are asking. Baha'is
should examine the meanings of the words they bandy about like
"manifestation" and "day spring" and "all powerful". If we have an
understanding of those kinds of words in relation to our religion that
is in accord with science and reason, and we follow this and other
direct and clear commands of God as we understand Him, only then are
we attempting to be members of the Religion of God.
The meanings of words are where we start when we read Baha'i
Writings. The words have histories, and we cannot be expected to have
a different meaning to a word like "manifestation" than the rest of
the population of the earth has, especially not different from what
that word meant when it was first translated into English in the
Baha'i Writings.
I am absolutely certain I could write a book in answer to your
question, and I would not be telling you what "manifestation" means,
but rather giving you things to think about. As Suzanne said,
interpretations are yours alone.
But a manifestation is stronger than an evidence. But an evidence is,
kind of, a weak manifestation of a thing. An appearance is a
manifestation. A vision is a weaker manifestation. The word was used
for a reason in the Baha'i Writings, and that reason should not be
lost, garbled or misconstrued.
We are told that there were very few manifestations of God on earth,
and we have some of them named by their earthly names. For example
Jesus and Muhammad are named in the Baha'i Writings as Manifestations
of God. In my mind, my interpretation of my religion, my thoughts on
the subject are such that I believe these named Manifestations of God,
by Their Lives, demonstrated, provided evidences, visions, appearences
or *manifestations* of God on earth.
To think of it in another way the words lose their meanings, and
Manifestation of God just becomes a synonym for one of nine Founders
of Major Religions. It is my contention that the meanings of the
words used are fundamental to understanding the concepts conveyed.
I hope this helps you understand, in your own mind, your own
interpretation, of how one recognizes a manifestation of God. When
capitalized in the Baha'i Writings the words are referent to a Founder
of a Religion, but that does not mean those referent words lose their
meanings. It is the Lives, the Appearances, the Evidences of God that
makes these Holy Manifestations Who They are. It is not their names,
their religions, their books, or what people thought about them. Our
Writings refer to the *Manifestations* of God, not the names of men
however great they were.
Shall I go on to write about the dual station of these men?
Warmly, --Kent
On Aug 31, 3:54 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
compx2
The expression "Manifestation of God " appears in more than a few
places in our Baha'i Writings. I refer you to any and every use of
that expression and ask you to consider if we should think of that
expression as a referent to the holy founder of a major religion as a
synonym, like, Jesus means the 'manifestionofgodonearth of the year 1
AD" or whether we should consider the meanings of the words of the
expression as they were when the words were first used to translate
Baha'i Writings.
And I ask you to see my view not adopt it. Only you can interpret the
Writings and decide what you believe.
Warmly --Kent
Suzanne
>
> And I ask you to see my view not adopt it. Only you can interpret the
> Writings and decide what you believe.
Thanks, Kent. I haven't actually figured out what your view of the
Manifestations of God is or what is so radically different from my
view based on my reading of the Baha'i Writings. I can assure you,
though, I have read and reflected on this topic quite a bit though.
Maybe you'd like to join us on the Manifestations of God thread.
"Hell" doesn't seem to be an appropriate thread title for this
discussion. ;-)
Best wishes,
Suzanne
mike3
However it is not necessarily an end, is it, for the hell need not be
eternal and there is also no end to the progress of the soul?
(If it were an end then that would equal real eternal hell) So perhaps
a better way to say the above would be "we shouldn't think we know
what course someone's development will take"?