MIscellaneous Runes
Heidi Graw
rune Elder Furthark. The Havamal rune verses only cover 18 of them. The
extra runes are as follows:
Fehu: mobile property, cattle, money.
Key words: Mobile force, energy, fertility, creation/destruction
(becoming)
Jera: the (good) year harvest, year, (good) season
Key words: Cyclical development, solar year cycle, reward,
fruition, eagle.
Perthro: device for casting lots, dice cup.
Key words: Orlog, time, Urdhr=Verdandhi-Skuld, cause and
effect, evolution.
Sowilo: sun
Key words: Solar wheel, magical will, guide, goal and path,
success, honor.
Mannaz: human, man
Key words: divine structure, divine link, intelligence,
androgyne, initiate.
Othala: ancestral property, homeland, natural inborn quality.
Key words: Sacred enclosure, inherited power, preserved
freedom, prosperity.
Mannuz - Perthro - Jera - Fehu - Sowilo - Othala.
The divine man, by the fates blessed with good harvests and wealth, is on
his path to receive a sacred inheritance. ;-)
You can now see why Snorri, a Christian, would not and could not make
reference to rune verses which claim that the rich and successful shall
receive everlasting life. The Christian notion has it that the rich and
successful man is doomed to hellfires and brimstone, ie. rich man passing
through the eye of a needle to get to heaven...it ain't gonna happen! ;-)
Any other thoughts about the above?
Heidi
Rexx Magnus
I think you may have gone a little awry with some of those. ;-)
Here's the 24 and 16 younger with names as taught through Stav (Norwegian-
Danish set, apologies for lacking the accents/correct vowels, I can't
remember them at the moment.)
Fehu - Fé
Uruz - Ur
Thurisaz - Thurs
Ansuz - Ås
Raido - Rei
Kenaz - Kreft
Gebo -
Wunjo -
Hagalaz - Hagl
Nauthiz - Nød
Isa - Is
Jera - Ár
Eihwaz - (Same meaning as Yr, but that comes at the end)
Perth -
Algiz -
Sowilo - Sol
Tiwaz - Tyr
Berkana - Bjørk
Ehwaz -
Mannaz - Mann
Laguz - Laug
Ingwaz -
Othala -
Dagaz -
- Yr
Below is the poem that they use in Stav, and I've listed the runes (elder
names) that are effectively associated with them. I may go through this and
put down some of the discussion that we had at the Stav camp (or at least my
interpretations of those definitions).
>From Runic and Heroic Poems by Bruce Dickins
[Fehu] Wealth is a source of discord among kinsmen;
the wolf lives in the forest.
[Uruz] Dross comes from bad iron;
the reindeer often races over the frozen snow.
[Thurisaz] Giant causes anguish to women;
misfortune makes few men cheerful.
[Ansuz] Estuary is the way of most journeys;
but a scabbard is of swords.
[Raido] Riding is said to be the worst thing for horses;
Reginn forged the finest sword.
[Kenaz] Ulcer is fatal to children;
death makes a corpse pale.
[Hagalaz] Hail is the coldest of grain;
Christ created the world of old.
[Nauthiz] Constraint gives scant choice;
a naked man is chilled by the frost.
[Isa] Ice we call the broad bridge;
the blind man must be led.
[Jera] Plenty is a boon to men;
I say that Froði was generous.
[Sowilo] Sun is the light of the world;
I bow to the divine decree.
[Tiwaz] Týr is a one-handed god;
often has the smith to blow.
[Berkana] Birch has the greenest leaves of any shrub;
Loki was fortunate in his deceit.
[Mannaz] Man is an augmentation of the dust;
great is the claw of the hawk.
[Laguz] A waterfall is a River which falls from a mountain-side;
but ornaments are of gold.
[Eihwaz] Yew is the greenest of trees in winter;
it is wont to crackle when it burns.
http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/nrune.htm
--
http://www.rexx.co.uk
To email me, visit the site.
http://www.rexx.co.uk/runes/ - personal online rune readings
Heidi Graw
>"Rexx Magnus" <tras...@uk2.net> wrote in message
>news:Xns983D670A077...@130.133.1.4...
(snip)
>Rexx wrote:
> I think you may have gone a little awry with some of those. ;-)
<chuckle>.... I'm an amateur, Rexx! ;-)
> Rexx wrote:
> Here's the 24 and 16 younger with names as taught through Stav (Norwegian-
> Danish set, apologies for lacking the accents/correct vowels, I can't
> remember them at the moment.)
(snip)
>Rexx wrote:
> Below is the poem that they use in Stav, and I've listed the runes (elder
> names) that are effectively associated with them. I may go through this
> and
> put down some of the discussion that we had at the Stav camp (or at least
> my
> interpretations of those definitions).
Are you inviting me into a UPG competition? May the one with the most
creative and interesting interpretation win! ;-)
(snip)
> http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/nrune.htm
The main site has some pretty good resources. I've bookmarked it for
further perusal.
As to the development of runes, the Wikipedia has some good information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_alphabet
I still don't know what sort of Runes Snorri was familiar with and which
ones were most popular in Iceland. Given the information from the
Wikipedia, I'm leaning towards the 24 Elder Furthark...a more versatile and
popular alphabet, used over a greater span of time, to accomodate the
writing of speech. The 16 rune Younger Futhark enjoyed *limited*
popularity. It was a reduced version of the 24 rune Elder Futhark and was
used later and only temporarily.
Heidi
Rexx Magnus
> I still don't know what sort of Runes Snorri was familiar with and which
> ones were most popular in Iceland. Given the information from the
> Wikipedia, I'm leaning towards the 24 Elder Furthark...a more versatile
> and popular alphabet, used over a greater span of time, to accomodate
> the writing of speech. The 16 rune Younger Futhark enjoyed *limited*
> popularity. It was a reduced version of the 24 rune Elder Futhark and
> was used later and only temporarily.
>
> Heidi
>
>From what I've read, the 16 younger got more use after the revision, as they were intended to unify the scheme
for writing purposes. Obviously with the inclusion of other sounds (such as Anglo Saxon) they ended up getting
re-expanded again, although they remained at the core.
Rexx Magnus
[Fehu] Wealth is a source of discord among kinsmen;
the wolf lives in the forest. [Or grows up in the forest]
Money is hard to come by, and even harder to keep. Cattle keeps getting picked off
occasionally by wolves (problems) that are hidden in the forest (implying that they are
unforseen difficulties). It's also the source of many family arguments and with those in the
community - implying that even though you may be the source of the food, you're taking up
valuable space - meaning you'll have a commitment to them.
[Uruz] Dross comes from bad iron;
the reindeer often races over the frozen snow.
Hard work is required to extract ore from the rock - bloody hard work.
The reindeer comment is a bit cryptic though. Perhaps it means that given time, something
soft can be made strong - enough so to support the great weight of the reindeer.
[Thurisaz] Giant causes anguish to women;
misfortune makes few men cheerful.
Periods, menstrual blood (ref.Thor crossing the stream that the giantess raises the water).
Nobody really wants to make love whilst the other is bleeding, and women can be awful
testy around that time - a trial.
[Ansuz] Estuary is the way of most journeys;
but a scabbard is of [for] swords.
Obviously all journeys start with the mouth of the river, but the important thing here for me is
the importance of words. Scabbards may hold swords, but it also implies that words can be
used (diplomacy) instead of swords.
[Raido] Riding is said to be the worst thing for horses;
Reginn forged the finest sword.
Heading out on a journey without realizing that you're not prepared is the worst thing to do.
Going off on a trip and not knowing that the horse under you is lame. Regin forges the best
sword, but everybody dies in the end - and doesn't it get broken?
[Kenaz] Ulcer is fatal to children;
death makes a corpse pale.
This one is not good at all. There's a reference to fire in the elder futhark - but likewise
whilst fire can be good for you, turn your back and your house is burnt down. This
embodies Loki's creativity. He gets himself into a mess, but his creativity comes into play in
order to get him out of it.
Heidi Graw
> Here we go, a quick attempt at some of them:
>
> [Fehu] Wealth is a source of discord among kinsmen;
> the wolf lives in the forest. [Or grows up in the forest]
>
> Money is hard to come by, and even harder to keep. Cattle keeps getting
> picked off
> occasionally by wolves (problems) that are hidden in the forest (implying
> that they are
> unforseen difficulties). It's also the source of many family arguments and
> with those in the
> community - implying that even though you may be the source of the food,
> you're taking up
> valuable space - meaning you'll have a commitment to them.
Rexx, I don't disagree that wealth can be a source of all kinds of trouble,
especially when there is great disparity between rich and poor. Wealth,
however, can also be a source of comfort provided it is *not* the main focus
in one's life. Edred Thorsson wrote this about Fehu:
Edred Thorsson "Furthark-A Handbook of Rune Magic".
GMC fehu: mobile property, cattle
GO faíhu: cattle, mobile property
OE foeh: cattle, money
ON fé: livestock, money
Phonetic value: f
Esoteric interpretaion of name: mobile property; power.
Ideographic interpretation: the horns of bovine livestock.
Notes:
Archetypal energy of motion and expansion in the multiverse.
Basic force of fertility.
Essence of mobile power.
Defines a mobile form of power.
Otherworldly glow around grave mounds and hills, even as ring of fire.
Key words:
Mobile force
Energy, fertility
Creation/destruction (Becoming)
Magical workings:
1. Strengthens psychic powers.
2. Channel for power transference or projeciton; the sending rune.
3. Drawing the projected power of the sun, moon, and stars into the personal
sphere.
4. Promotion of personal and social evolution.
5. Increase in personal monetary wealth.
****
My thoughts: I associate Fehu with Audhumla...the Cosmic Cow. She willed
herself into existence, licked Ymir to emerge from the ice in which he was
embedded. She nurtured and fed him to keep him alive. From Ymir emerged
the giant race.
So, while the Catholics may have their Papal Bull, we Heathens have our
Cosmic Cow! ;-)
Papal Bull dictates and issues directives: Obey! Taurus the bull features
prominently within Greek/Roman mythology and has been incorporated into
Catholicism. One of the apostles is associated with Taurus (the animal, not
the place)...there appears to be a dispute over which one. Jayne might have
some ideas of her own regarding this. Paul, John, Andrew???
The Cosmic Cow, however, invites exploration into her mysteries. And just
as a cow provides food for the body, the Cosmic Cow provides food for our
souls, our hearts and our minds. Look into the heavens and become inspired!
Search for a pattern of stars in the heavens where we might find
Audhumla...perhaps a constellation which we can claim for our very own! No
bully is she, but a nurturing one and a provider.
The Havamal lists a series of rune verses (145 onward), none of which
adequately capture the essence of Fehu, cattle and wealth, nor the nurturing
and providing qualities of Audhumla.
*****
So, what is missing in the Havamal rune verses is a spell dealing with
wealth. We do not know whether or not such a spell existed and if it did,
did Snorri deliberately leave it out? Or, was wealth creation a sin
according to our ancient ancestors? Other portions of the Havamal don't
seem to think wealth is a sin. One man may be blessed with lots of sons,
another may be blessed with money. There's no shame in either case.
Havamal 69.
No man is completely wretched, even if he has bad luck;
one man is blessed with sons,
another with kinsmen, another has enough meoney,
another has done great deeds.
> Rexx continues:
> [Uruz] Dross comes from bad iron;
> the reindeer often races over the frozen snow.
>
> Hard work is required to extract ore from the rock - bloody hard work.
> The reindeer comment is a bit cryptic though. Perhaps it means that given
> time, something
> soft can be made strong - enough so to support the great weight of the
> reindeer.
I interpret that as a mixed blessing. Uruz can be treacherous or it can be
of benefit. The frozen snow may appear treacherous, but it can also prove
to be useful for traveling on. So, instead of walking for miles around a
lake, once it is frozen, one can take a short-cut across it. So, if it
looks dangerous, treacherous and awesome, you can indeed find ways and means
to make it work for you. What appears a barrier, may turn out not to be
one. Engage brain, and think! ;-)
Edred Thorsson has this to say about Uruz:
GMC uruz: the aurochs
GO úrus: the aurochs
OE úr: ox, bison
ON úr: drizzle, rain
Phonetic values: u, v
Esoteric interpretation of names: aurochs--primal forming force; Audhumla
in the Edda, or drizzle--the primal fertilizing essence.
Ideographic interpretation: the horns of the aurochs, or falling drizzle.
Notes:
The U-rune is the mother of manifestation (Audhumla).
Uruz is the patterning and formulating powr in the multiverse, the source of
the ordering principles that lead to the final formulation of the world.
This is the cosmic seed.
It contains the formulation of the self.
The U-rune is the shaping power that defines the origin and the destiny of
all things.
Symbolizes wisdom and lore.
Key words:
Archetypal patterning
Organic organization
Wisdom
Health
Vital strength
Magical workings:
1. Shaping and forming circumstances creatively through will and
inspiration.
2. Healing and maintence of good mental and physical health.
3. Bringer of fortunate circumstances.
4. Induction of magnetic earth streams.
5. Realization of causality.
6 Knowledge and understanding of the self.
*****
My thoughts: Although Edred claims Uruz is associated with Audhumla, I'm
associating it with the primal fertilizing essence...the cosmic seed, the
drizzle...the semen of a male aurock. Organic organization requires both
male and female substances. This rune complements Fehu quite nicely in this
regard. Also, before a male can exist, a female must first bear him.
Audhumla first, Uruz her male partner, second. The Uruz rune also involves
Wisdom.
For this fertilization to occcur, it requires the use of vitality,
mind-games and love-play (iow...courtship). The rune verse in the Havamal
which I think reflects this well is:
161. I know a sixteenth if I want to have all
a clever woman's heart and love-play;
I can turn the thoughts of the white-armed women
and change her mind entirely.
******
At issue is the barrier....it may be that ice. It may be a reluctant woman.
One can overcome those barriers by engaging the Uruz rune. It is an active
rune! It has power...one can use it for one's advantage. Dross comes from
bad iron, but a sharp clean edge can be had from good iron. That edge can
cut through a barrier.
>Rexx continues:
> [Thurisaz] Giant causes anguish to women;
> misfortune makes few men cheerful.
>
> Periods, menstrual blood (ref.Thor crossing the stream that the giantess
> raises the water).
> Nobody really wants to make love whilst the other is bleeding, and women
> can be awful
> testy around that time - a trial.
Looks to me like a reference to Freya and her *almost* marriage to a giant.
Thor rescued her from that potential demise. ;-) And for a mere mortal to
tackle a giant can be quite discouraging...nothing to be happy about.
As for menstrual blood, that is hardly a giant problem and it's only very
few women for whom this may be a source of anguish. For most women it's
simply just a nuisance that one learns to live with. There are also some
women who place great importance on the mentrual cycle...it helps them
remain in touch with their feminine side and their child-bearing abilities.
Some fall into a deep depression when they hit menopause because the loss of
this mentrual cycle becomes for them a sign that they're no longer a *whole*
woman...their child-bearing days have come to an end and they find this
tragic.
Edred Thorsson has this to say about Thurisaz:
GMC thurisaz: the strong one, giant
GO thiuth: the good one
OE thorn: thorn
ON thurs: giant
Phonetic value: voiceless th as in "thorn."
Esoteric interpretation of name: Asa-Thórr, the enemy of unfriendly forces.
Ideographic interpretaions: the hammer, or the thorn on a branch.
Notes:
Thurisaz is the directed cosmic force of destruction nd defence.
The TH-rune is the container of the life-death polarity.
A rune of regeneration and fertilization.
This is the cosmic phallic power.
Key words:
Force of destruction/defense
Action
Applied power
Direction of polarities
Regeneration (following destruction)
Magical workings:
1. Defense (active)
2. Destruction of enemies, curses.
3. Awakening of the will to action.
4. Preparedness for generation in all realms.
5. Love magic.
6. Knowledge of the division and unity of all things.
******
My thoughts: Avoid casting curses. They're bound to come around and bite
you in the behind. In elder days when the world was a flat disk, one might
have gotten away with it. But not today! In a world that is a sphere with
a gravitational force, what goes around comes around! So, if you're going
hurl curses, make sure they're of the kind you yourself can accept, too.
;-)
The Havamal rune verse which seems to capture the workings of this rune
quite well is.
148. I know a third one which is very useful to me,
which fetters my enemy;
the edges of my foes I can blunt,
neither weapon nor club will bite for them.
I also associate Thurisaz with the STUMP moderation program! A defense
against spam, and it can blunt sharp words! ;-)
******
Basically...a giant problem requires a giant defense. Fight Thurisaz with
Thurisaz. ;-)
> Rexx wrote:
> [Ansuz] Estuary is the way of most journeys;
> but a scabbard is of [for] swords.
>
> Obviously all journeys start with the mouth of the river, but the
> important thing here for me is
> the importance of words. Scabbards may hold swords, but it also implies
> that words can be
> used (diplomacy) instead of swords.
Estuaries are, however, places of sanctuary for migrants while they're
travelling abroad. So, while the scabbard provides protection for the
sword, so does an estuary provide sanctuary for travellers. The hope is
that the deities will protect us humans as we make our way about this world.
Edred Thorsson has this to say about Ansuz:
Edred Thorsson, "Furthark-A Handbook of Rune Magic."
GMC ansuz: a god, ancestral god
GO ansus: a runic god name
OE ós: a god
ON áss: a god, one of the AEsir
Phonetic values: a (o in the A-S row)
Esoteric interpretation of name: Odhinn of the AEsir.
Ideographic interpretation: the wind-blown cloak of Odhinn.
Notes:
Ansuz is the mysterium tremendum of the rune row.
The A-rune is instrumental in the creation of mankind.
Ansuz is the receiver-container/transformer-expresser of spirtual power and
numnous knowledge.
This is the rune of the word, song, poetry, and magical incantation (galdr)
as a container and expresser of magical force.
Ansuz is a magical ancestral power, one that has been handed down from
generation to generation along genetic lines.
The A-rune embodies the death mysteries of the AEsir.
Key words:
Reception--transformation--expression
Container/contained
Numinous knowledge
Inspiration
Ecstacy
Word-song
Death mysteries
Magical workings:
1. Increase of both active and passive magical powers and clairvoyant
abilities, etc.
2. Convincing and magnetic speech, and the power of suggestion and hypnosis.
3. Acquisition of creative wisdom, inspiration, ecstacy, and divine
communication.
4. Banishing of death and terror through knowledge of Odhinn.
*****
My thoughts: I'm reminded of my advocacy work. Convincing and magnetic
speech was vitally important when I wrote my letters or spoke before a panel
of authorities with folks in the audience. This was really scary stuff for
me. So, to bolster my confidence, I'd imagine I was wrapped up in Odin's
cloak, plus I'd wear my "mammoth ivory talisman" as a psychological aide to
help me feel huge and powerful. ;-) I had to somehow assume an aura of
authority being only 5'3" tall and slight in size. And all too often, when
I spoke to such a group of people, I felt as if it wasn't really me
speaking. Someone else was doing this and I got what I wanted! LOL... ;-)
As for Ansuz being that ancestral power passed down from one generation to
another, I think the rune verse in the Havamal which best captures this idea
is...
159. I know a fourteenth if I have to reckon up
the gods before men:
AEsir and elves, I know the difference between them,
few who are not wise know that.
Gods are gods, men are men, elves are elves, giants are giants. Know the
difference.
*****
So, Ansuz can be very helpful...use it to get in touch with the gods. The
gods can protect you, like a sword inside a scabbard, like an estuary to the
wanderer. As for me, in my mind's eye, I wrap myself in Odin's cloak. It's
big enough, that's he's let me a have a corner of it. No harm comes to me
when I'm wearing it. ;-)
> Rexx continues:
> [Raido] Riding is said to be the worst thing for horses;
> Reginn forged the finest sword.
>
> Heading out on a journey without realizing that you're not prepared is the
> worst thing to do.
> Going off on a trip and not knowing that the horse under you is lame.
> Regin forges the best
> sword, but everybody dies in the end - and doesn't it get broken?
Yes, the horse can turn lame, the wheel can break off from its axle. Reginn
forged the finest sword. We can also rear the finest horses and build the
finest wheels. Riding is not without its dangers. Be prepared for a rough
ride! ;-)
Edred Thorsson has this to say about Raido:
GMC raidho: wagon
GO raidha: wagon, ride
OE rádh: a riding, way
ON reidh: riding, chariot
Phonetic value: r
Esoteric interpretation of name: the solar wagon, and the chariot of Thórr.
Ideographic interpretations: a wheel under the chariot in the view: as a
hlf of the solar whee (see the S-rune).
Notes:
Raidho is the cosmic law of right and archetypal order in the multiverse.
Raidho came to be a symbol of organized religion, or better said, of Asatru,
the ancient form of Germanic religion.
This rune represents the right order of the initiate's journey through the
paths of the Nine Words of Yggdrasill.
Good advice and judgment according to right are ascribed to raidho.
The mystery of the R-rune is that of ritual; arrangement of energy and
actions according to a cosmic order for a specific purpose.
Raidho is the channeling of force according to natural laws along the right
road leading to the right result.
The concept of rhythm and dance also are important to the R-rune.
Raidho also may be expressed in the concept of spiral development.
In popular tradition it is a symbol for the Vehmic Court, deep indigenous
religious laws having precedence over those of the civil authority.
Key words:
Right action and order
Cosmic cyclical law
Religion - magic
Ritual
Rhythm
Journey
Magical workings:
1. Strengthens ritual abilities and experience.
2. Access to "inner advice."
3. Raises consciousness to right and natural processes.
4. Blending with personal and world rhythms.
5. Obtaining justice according to right.
*****
My thoughts: I once had the happy circumstance to meet a woman who was
wearing a Raidho pendant. We were at a Provincial Parent Advisory Council
annual convention. She had stood up to speak in support of a particular
motion that was about to be voted on, and she made such an impressive case,
that during break-time I simply just had to go over to her table where she
sat with a bunch of other people. First thing I saw was that pendant and I
said, "I love your Raidho pendant. What an appropriate symbol to wear for
this occasion." She was massively surprised that I recognized it. However,
bearing in mind there were a bunch of Christian ladies at this gathering, we
just exchanged knowing smiles while I congratulated her for her well spoken
words. ;-)
It's too bad too many other things were going on at this convention...I
would have loved to have more of a chance to talk to her. Ah well...
In any case, to my mind the Raidho rune is that rune for motion, action,
getting unstuck to move ahead in the right and just direction. Take away
the shackles of the mind and the body, *think* and *do* something useful and
beneficial. ;-)
The Havamal rune verse which seems to fit this quite well is...
149. I know a fourth one if men put
chains upon my limbs;
I can chant so that I can walk away,
fetters spring from my feet,
and bonds from my hands.
Release and Roll... ;-)
******
Basically, Raidho is about *movement*... it's also about being prepared for
making such a journey, anticipating disasters and finding ways and means to
overcome them. Fix a broken wheel. Circumvent an obstacle. Cross any
barriers.
> Rexx wrote:
> [Kenaz] Ulcer is fatal to children;
> death makes a corpse pale.
>
> This one is not good at all. There's a reference to fire in the elder
> futhark - but likewise
> whilst fire can be good for you, turn your back and your house is burnt
> down. This
> embodies Loki's creativity. He gets himself into a mess, but his
> creativity comes into play in
> order to get him out of it.
Yet, an ulcer feels like fire in one's belly. It can be fatal if nothing is
done about it. Keep children away from the fire. And as for the adults:
treat fire *responsibly!* Learn to cope with the fire in your belly. Use
the fire in your mind in responsible and thoughtful ways. Take control
over the fire and make it work for you in useful and meaningful ways.
Edred Thorsson has this to say about Kenaz:
GMC kenaz: torch
GO kusma: swelling
OE cén: torch
ON kaun: sore, boil
Phonetic value: k
Esoteric interpretation of names: the controlled fire; cremation. The
Gothic and Old Norse names are secondary--internal fire, inflammation, etc.
Ideographic interpretation: flame of the torch.
Notes:
The K-rune portrays the mystery of regeneration through death or sacrifice.
Ritually, kenaz is the fire of creation, sacrifice, the hearth and the
forge--fire controlled by mankind toward a willed result.
Kenaz is the ability and the will to generate and create.
A large amount of knowledge and technical lore is embodied in the K-rune,
knowledge combined with ability.
The K-rune is the rune of human passion, lust , and sexual love--as positive
attributes.
Kenaz also is important to the concept kin, and especially to that part of
clanic tradition.
Key words:
Controlled energy
Ability
Transformation
Regeneration
Will to generate
Sexual lust
Creativity
Magical workings:
1. Strengthen of abilities in all realms.
2. Creative inspiration.
3. Higher polarization as a tool of operation.
4. Operations of regeneration, healing.
5. Love (especially sexual love).
******
My thoughts: The Havamal rune verse which seems relevant is...
153. I know an eighth one, which is most useful
for everyone to know;
where hatred flares up between the sons of warriors,
then I can quickly bring settlement.
It takes great skill, knowledge and creative thinking to bring about peace
between warriors. This is not simply a matter of bashing one's opponent
into oblivion. Settlement requires opposing factions have their differences
negotiated in such a way that both parties can find an agreeable resolution
to the conflict. It's kinda like using the fires of the mind to fight the
fires of hostile emotions.
*****
Notice that the ulcer, sore and that boil can feel like fire! In any case,
I think the rune poem you unveiled really does not undermine anything that
Edred Thorsson came up with. The themes are similar, although expressed
somewhat differently. I also don't think my interpretations are all that
off base either.
We seem to agree moreso than disagree. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Rexx Magnus
> Notice that the ulcer, sore and that boil can feel like
> fire! In any case, I think the rune poem you unveiled
> really does not undermine anything that Edred Thorsson came
> up with. The themes are similar, although expressed
> somewhat differently. I also don't think my
> interpretations are all that off base either.
>
> We seem to agree moreso than disagree. ;-)
Indeed - the Norwegian rune poem seems to be all about the
negative connotations of each rune, so that's what I focused
on, rather than adding my own understanding of the rune in
its entirety (that I did in each separate rune's post and
didn't want to just reiterate.)
A lot of the time in modern rune literature, the positive
meanings are presented in lengthy discourse, whilst the
negative ones are very brief and left to interpretation. The
rune poems seem to be the other way around, as it's usually
best to know about problems before they occur than it is for
the good things (ever noticed how most premonitions focus on
negative happenings rather than good ones?)
Obviously if you use reversed forms then the positive
meanings can be extrapolated, which is implied in the
Havamal.
Admittedly, I've not read through the rune poems in Havamal
yet, but I'll go through those with my own ideas another
time.
Rexx Magnus
[Hagalaz] Hail is the coldest of grain;
Christ created the world of old.
An implication that whilst it is cold, it is also the source
of life. Christ here may refer to Heimdall (the White Christ
as he's also been referred to. Remember that Christ is a
title, not a name that applies only to Christian terms). The
implication that it was the world of old seems to indicate
change, as in there's a new world.
[Nauthiz] Constraint gives scant choice;
a naked man is chilled by the frost.
Bound into one action, this one is very obvious. If the cold
is coming, you'd better learn how to knit.
[Isa] Ice we call the broad bridge;
the blind man must be led.
Ice freezes rivers, giving one the opportunity to pass
obstacles that may have otherwise been too treacherous. Being
snowblinded though, is an obstacle - you can't go forward and
can't go back as you've lost your bearings and can't see.
[Jera] Plenty is a boon to men;
I say that FroĐi was generous.
Reaping what you sow, profit and comfort - fairly obvious.
[Sowilo] Sun is the light of the world;
I bow to the divine decree.
High spirituality is indicated here, and success that is all
encompassing.
[Tiwaz] Těr is a one-handed god;
often has the smith to blow.
I'm sure we all know the story of Fenris and his binding by
Tyr. Vigilance is also indicated and at least persistence - a
smith's forge will cool if he doesn't pay attention to it.
[Berkana] Birch has the greenest leaves of any shrub;
Loki was fortunate in his deceit.
Fertility and growth represented by the birch, but also the
possibility of achieving success by subversive means (women's
magic comes under this, so further feminine connotations).
[Mannaz] Man is an augmentation of the dust;
great is the claw of the hawk.
I've read a different version that says man is the build up
of dust. This could refer to death (ashes to ashes, dust to
dust) or that people multiply quickly, or have great effect
on the environment - yet the hawks claws are great, so none
escape death.
[Laguz] A waterfall is a River which falls from a
mountain-side;
but ornaments are of gold.
A river can be soft, but can pound even the biggest of rocks
to sand, so hidden strength can be indicated - along with the
ability to adapt and flow with the surroundings. Gold is
costly, but adds nothing to your life overall - you can't
manage without water, it's infinitely more valuable.
[Eihwaz] Yew is the greenest of trees in winter;
it is wont to crackle when it burns.
Life through death, or at least persisting life in a near-
dead environment. When it burns it gives great heat, showing
that it can be a comfort and a source of life in the face of
adversity.
Heidi Graw
> Interpretations continued:
>
> [Hagalaz] Hail is the coldest of grain;
> Christ created the world of old.
>
> An implication that whilst it is cold, it is also the source
> of life.
Yes...and the egg has also been associated with this rune. The egg, of
course, represents the earliest of a new life...and just like a snowflake,
it is different from all the others, so is that new life...unique and
different from all others.
(snip)
> [Nauthiz] Constraint gives scant choice;
> a naked man is chilled by the frost.
>
> Bound into one action, this one is very obvious. If the cold
> is coming, you'd better learn how to knit.
When I was in grade 3 and still in elementary school in Germany (1963/4),
all the boys in my class had to learn how to knit, too. They actually
didn't mind it. We all had to learn to knit, crochet and sew...boys and
girls alike. ;-)
Of course, when I got to Canada, when I told that to my new friends, the
boys all claimed they wouldn't be caught dead with a knitting needles in
hand! Knitting is for girls they claimed! Sexism reigned supreme out here
on the West Coast! ;-)
In any case, the comment, "Constraint gives scant choice," is so
true...that's why I could never be a conservative. To be conservative is to
conserve, to contrain, to limit oneself...have fewer choices available.
Basically, to be conservative means to lack imagination. And when one lives
in a harsh environment one must be adaptable and wise. One must have a much
greater tool-box on hand for living one's life. So, if a man does not learn
how to knit, he cannot knit that warm scarf to keep his head and neck warm
should he find himself without that woman to do it for him.
On the other hand, for a woman to learn to hunt and skin an animal is also
vitally important. She would need to know how to cure and tan the hide,
too.
In harsh environments one cannot afford the luxury of sex roles! Do what
you can with what you have to the extent you are able! That's how one
survives. If the need is there, do it! Doesn't matter if you're man or
woman. When in a crisis...*all hands* on deck!
>
> [Isa] Ice we call the broad bridge;
> the blind man must be led.
>
> Ice freezes rivers, giving one the opportunity to pass
> obstacles that may have otherwise been too treacherous. Being
> snowblinded though, is an obstacle - you can't go forward and
> can't go back as you've lost your bearings and can't see.
Also, if blinded, one must be careful to choose one's guide. Remember when
Hod trusted Loki? Not a good choice for Hod to have made.
>
> [Jera] Plenty is a boon to men;
> I say that FroĐi was generous.
>
> Reaping what you sow, profit and comfort - fairly obvious.
However, care must be taken that that boon doesn't turn into greed. Frodi
learned that lesson well when he didn't allow the giant women to rest while
they were churning out this wealth for him. Frodi spured them on until they
rebelled and went on strike! Some say they broke the mill, others claimed
it was tossed into the sea. The point being: abuse the workers and
they'll eventually fight against it. The "Song of Grotti" demonstrates this
lesson well.
>
> [Sowilo] Sun is the light of the world;
> I bow to the divine decree.
>
> High spirituality is indicated here, and success that is all
> encompassing.
The Havamal teaches moderation: Don't drink too much, don't eat too much,
don't overstay your welcome. Come washed and groomed to the Assembly. Try
not to be too smart either! Be not a dumb ass nor a smart ass. And don't
worry overly much! Things eventually do work out! ;-)
>
> [Tiwaz] Těr is a one-handed god;
> often has the smith to blow.
>
> I'm sure we all know the story of Fenris and his binding by
> Tyr. Vigilance is also indicated and at least persistence - a
> smith's forge will cool if he doesn't pay attention to it.
Yep.
>
> [Berkana] Birch has the greenest leaves of any shrub;
> Loki was fortunate in his deceit.
>
> Fertility and growth represented by the birch, but also the
> possibility of achieving success by subversive means (women's
> magic comes under this, so further feminine connotations).
Good grief, Rexx! Women being those subversives? LOL...Must I remind you
of the greatest subversives of all time? Loki...a male! And the Christians
have their male serpent/Satan who beguiled Eve. If women are to be
considered the subversive sex, then they've learned it from the men! ;-)
>
> [Mannaz] Man is an augmentation of the dust;
> great is the claw of the hawk.
>
> I've read a different version that says man is the build up
> of dust. This could refer to death (ashes to ashes, dust to
> dust) or that people multiply quickly, or have great effect
> on the environment - yet the hawks claws are great, so none
> escape death.
Man from the dust is a Christian import from the Middle East...a dry and
dusty place. European lore, however, has as a predominant feature those
trees. Man made from the logs of trees. Trees, however, can be turned into
ashes by burning them. Life into ashes...and from the ashes new life can
emerge.
>
> [Laguz] A waterfall is a River which falls from a
> mountain-side;
> but ornaments are of gold.
>
> A river can be soft, but can pound even the biggest of rocks
> to sand, so hidden strength can be indicated - along with the
> ability to adapt and flow with the surroundings. Gold is
> costly, but adds nothing to your life overall - you can't
> manage without water, it's infinitely more valuable.
Amazing, eh? The power of a raindrop. Even the tender roots of a dandelion
can break apart a rock. In nature, the soft overcomes the hard.
>
> [Eihwaz] Yew is the greenest of trees in winter;
> it is wont to crackle when it burns.
>
> Life through death, or at least persisting life in a near-
> dead environment. When it burns it gives great heat, showing
> that it can be a comfort and a source of life in the face of
> adversity.
Yes. Good thoughts, Rexx. I've really enjoyed exploring the runes. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Rexx Magnus
>> [Berkana] Birch has the greenest leaves of any shrub;
>> Loki was fortunate in his deceit.
>>
>> Fertility and growth represented by the birch, but also the
>> possibility of achieving success by subversive means (women's
>> magic comes under this, so further feminine connotations).
>
> Good grief, Rexx! Women being those subversives? LOL...Must I
> remind you of the greatest subversives of all time? Loki...a
> male! And the Christians have their male serpent/Satan who
> beguiled Eve. If women are to be considered the subversive sex,
> then they've learned it from the men! ;-)
>
Yebbut Odin and Loki are exceptions, both use subversive means. :)
Seid is seen as the more subversive type of magic as opposed to
Galdr, which is where I drew the parallel.
Jayne Kulikauskas
>
> So, while the Catholics may have their Papal Bull, we Heathens have our
> Cosmic Cow! ;-)
>
> Papal Bull dictates and issues directives: Obey! Taurus the bull features
> prominently within Greek/Roman mythology and has been incorporated into
> Catholicism.
A papal bull does not have anything to do with the bovine animal nor with
Roman mythology. The words are homonyms with distinct etymologies. The
animal "bull" comes from the Old English "boli" while the papal edict
"bull" comes from the medieval Latin "bulla" meaning "seal or sealed
document" from Latin "bubble or rounded object"
> One of the apostles is associated with Taurus (the animal, not
> the place)...there appears to be a dispute over which one. Jayne might have
> some ideas of her own regarding this. Paul, John, Andrew???
Luke is the one represented in hagiography as a bull. The Four Evangelists
(not apostles) are associated with a vision recorded in Revelation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Evangelists
--
Jayne Check out soc.men.moderated. If your news provider
doesn't carry it, ask. While you're waiting for it use
the web interface:
http://news.killfile.org/?group=soc.men.moderated
Doug Freyburger
>
> As to the development of runes, the Wikipedia has some good information.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_alphabet
Good source on the many variants.
> I still don't know what sort of Runes Snorri was familiar with and which
> ones were most popular in Iceland. Given the information from the
> Wikipedia, I'm leaning towards the 24 Elder Furthark...a more versatile and
> popular alphabet, used over a greater span of time, to accomodate the
> writing of speech. The 16 rune Younger Futhark enjoyed *limited*
> popularity. It was a reduced version of the 24 rune Elder Futhark and was
> used later and only temporarily.
I don't think is absolutely certain that he was able to read any
of the runic futharks but I don't think anyone doubts that he
could read at least one of them in spite of that uncertainty.
The roman alphabet may have replaced runes in common
writing by his lifetime but runes were associated with his lore
work. No way did he just ignore runes completely.
The younger futhark is *far* more common in runestones and
was in active but occasional use from a couple of centuries
before Snorri's birth until several centuries after his death. I
would be astonished if it turned out he couldn't read and write
using them.
The anglo-frisian futhroc is less common but was current not
too long before he lived. It has undergone somewhat of a
revival because JRR Tolkein used it in The Hobbit so it is now
once again known to some. I would not be surprised if Snorri
could use it but it is unlikely he used it with any regularity.
The elder futhark was out of use except on the most obscure
runestones by the time Snorri lived. Likely he knew of it.
Maybe he could puzzle out writings in it. Possibly he could
carve his own writings in it. None as likely as his knowing
the younger futhark that he probably encountered multiple
times in his travels.
Heidi Graw
>"Jayne Kulikauskas" <jayne.ku...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1sv3my941fjuy.8...@40tude.net...
>> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:19:06 CST, Heidi Graw wrote:
>>
>> So, while the Catholics may have their Papal Bull, we Heathens have our
>> Cosmic Cow! ;-)
>>
>> Papal Bull dictates and issues directives: Obey! Taurus the bull
>> features
>> prominently within Greek/Roman mythology and has been incorporated into
>> Catholicism.
> Jayne wrote:
> A papal bull does not have anything to do with the bovine animal nor with
> Roman mythology. The words are homonyms with distinct etymologies. The
> animal "bull" comes from the Old English "boli" while the papal edict
> "bull" comes from the medieval Latin "bulla" meaning "seal or sealed
> document" from Latin "bubble or rounded object"
I know that, Jayne. I'm using Papal Bull as a figure of speech....Papal
Bullsh*t. ;-)
>
>> One of the apostles is associated with Taurus (the animal, not
>> the place)...there appears to be a dispute over which one. Jayne might
>> have
>> some ideas of her own regarding this. Paul, John, Andrew???
>
> Luke is the one represented in hagiography as a bull.
Yes, thanks. Early Christian paintings featured the Bull quite prominently.
The Bull is a popular animal in all sorts of cultures...Greek and Roman,
too...and it's not surprising that Christians also adopted this animal.
Heidi
Jayne Kulikauskas
>>"Jayne Kulikauskas" <jayne.ku...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1sv3my941fjuy.8...@40tude.net...
>>> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:19:06 CST, Heidi Graw wrote:
>>>
>>> So, while the Catholics may have their Papal Bull, we Heathens have our
>>> Cosmic Cow! ;-)
>>>
>>> Papal Bull dictates and issues directives: Obey! Taurus the bull
>>> features
>>> prominently within Greek/Roman mythology and has been incorporated into
>>> Catholicism.
>
>> Jayne wrote:
>> A papal bull does not have anything to do with the bovine animal nor with
>> Roman mythology. The words are homonyms with distinct etymologies. The
>> animal "bull" comes from the Old English "boli" while the papal edict
>> "bull" comes from the medieval Latin "bulla" meaning "seal or sealed
>> document" from Latin "bubble or rounded object"
>
> I know that, Jayne. I'm using Papal Bull as a figure of speech....Papal
> Bullsh*t. ;-)
In that case you were being offensive rather than ignorant.
Heidi Graw
(snip)
>>Heidi wrote:
>> I know that, Jayne. I'm using Papal Bull as a figure of speech....Papal
>> Bullsh*t. ;-)
> Jayne wrote:
> In that case you were being offensive rather than ignorant.
No, Jayne, I'm being defensive. In my book, I rate the Catholic Church as a
terror organization. It's got a long and violent history behind it. And
any member belong to this terror organization is not welcome in my house.
Heidi
Marcel Beaudoin
news:w3kOg.554276$IK3.36725@pd7tw1no:
The Catholic Church is as much a terror organization as Asatru are white
supremicists.
--
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
Doug Freyburger
> Jayne Kulikauskas wrote:
> >>Heidi wrote:
>
> >> I know that, Jayne. I'm using Papal Bull as a figure of speech....Papal
> >> Bullsh*t. ;-)
>
>
> No, Jayne, I'm being defensive.
And of chose you never admit that you're wrong either. But admit
it or not, you're wrong fairly regularly. This is one of those times.
You were offensive in a place that generally doesn't mind being
offensive.
> In my book, I rate the Catholic Church as a terror organization.
You're bashing another religion without comparing to Asatru.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
I have to agree.
If you are going to bash another religion, at least compare and contrast.
FFF
Dirk
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress - The UK's only occult talk show
Presented by Dirk Bruere and Marc Power on ResonanceFM
Heidi Graw
>"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:4n0oieF...@individual.net...
>>Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>> Heidi Graw wrote:
>>> In my book, I rate the Catholic Church as a terror organization.
>> Doug wrote:
>> You're bashing another religion without comparing to Asatru.
> Dirk wrote:
> I have to agree.
> If you are going to bash another religion, at least compare and contrast.
Fortunately, for us, secular laws have taken the bite out of Catholicism.
No longer can the Church wage terror on those whom it considers heretics and
the "ungodly." I know of no accounts where our heathen ancestors waged
terror in the name of Odin in order to convert others to their heathen
religion. And, within our Western democracies the Church cannot force a
raped 12-year old child to bear a child. This sort of child abuse is no
longer permitted. A pregnant 12-year old girl can opt for an abortion
should she choose so.
Should those secular laws ever become dismantled, I'm prepared to bet that
the Church would take that opportunity to once again search out and destroy
those who do not submit to the will of the Church.
The role of the Pope is exactly the same as the role of a dictator. All
dictators are tyrants, benevolent or not. Within Asatru we do not have a
religious dictatorship. We do not have an Asa-Pope. We are offered
information in the form of advice and not commandments!
As for any charitable works the Church provides...they're like those
vultures who feed off the bones of the poor and ailing folk. The Church
squeezes them even harder and builds a dependency which make it virtually
impossible for folks to pull themselves out of the rut. The poor become
poorer, the middle class becomes impoverished. It's a rare thing to find a
wealthy Catholic. The Church takes and keepeth.
Within Asatru we don't have that kind of dependency and that kind of
"charity." What we do encourage, however, is to help people help
themselves. We don't just hand a man a fish, we teach them how to fish. We
also encourage reciprocal give and take.
I could make a list of all the crimes against humanity that the Church
committed...conversion by sword, the German Inquisition, the Spanish
Inquisition, collusion with the Nazis, crimes against women and
children...however, all that would simply take way too much of my time....I
could write *volumes!* As it is, all sorts of other people have already
written reports about the abuses committed by the Church, both historically
and presently ongoing...<sigh>
Heidi
Jayne Kulikauskas
> I could make a list of all the crimes against humanity that the Church
> committed...conversion by sword, the German Inquisition, the Spanish
> Inquisition, collusion with the Nazis, crimes against women and
> children...however, all that would simply take way too much of my time....I
> could write *volumes!* As it is, all sorts of other people have already
> written reports about the abuses committed by the Church, both historically
> and presently ongoing...<sigh>
And people have written volumes about the violence, destruction, raping,
and plundering committed by Vikings. Apparently following Asatru does not
prevent people from doing evil either. Even without a pope to organize
them they managed murder and mayhem.
Of course, much of the reports of Viking violence are biased and inaccurate
and even that which is true has little bearing on modern Asatruar. But
wait ... the same can be said of Catholic violence. Not that I expect
Heidi to acknowledge these as parallel situations.
Anyhow, I think I will be unsubbing from SRA. Lately, far too large a
proportion of the posts are by Heidi for me to be able to enjoy this group
and I have other demands on my time. I wish you all well.
--
Jayne
Marcel Beaudoin
@pd7tw1no:
> I know of no accounts where our heathen ancestors waged
> terror in the name of Odin in order to convert others to their heathen
> religion.
And of course, Ancient Vikings never raped and pillaged villages in the
name of the gods...
bowman
Heidi Graw wrote:
>
> As for any charitable works the Church provides...they're like those
> vultures who feed off the bones of the poor and ailing folk. The Church
> squeezes them even harder and builds a dependency which make it virtually
> impossible for folks to pull themselves out of the rut. The poor become
> poorer, the middle class becomes impoverished. It's a rare thing to find a
> wealthy Catholic. The Church takes and keepeth.
You really should journey out of your fantasy world every now and then.
You are confusing the Church with the secular state with which you are
so enthralled. Speaking of thralls, what do you know about the history
of the unfree in Europe?
Marcel Beaudoin
news:XgHOg.558168$IK3.38197@pd7tw1no:
> I could make a list of all the crimes against humanity that the Church
> committed...conversion by sword, the German Inquisition, the Spanish
> Inquisition, collusion with the Nazis, crimes against women and
> children...however, all that would simply take way too much of my
> time....I could write *volumes!* As it is, all sorts of other people
> have already written reports about the abuses committed by the Church,
> both historically and presently ongoing...<sigh>
Also...
Let Asatru be around for 2000 years, and see just how much it changes from
how it started.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:39:04 CST, Heidi Graw wrote:
>
>
>> I could make a list of all the crimes against humanity that the Church
>> committed...conversion by sword, the German Inquisition, the Spanish
>> Inquisition, collusion with the Nazis, crimes against women and
>> children...however, all that would simply take way too much of my time....I
>> could write *volumes!* As it is, all sorts of other people have already
>> written reports about the abuses committed by the Church, both historically
>> and presently ongoing...<sigh>
>
> And people have written volumes about the violence, destruction, raping,
> and plundering committed by Vikings. Apparently following Asatru does not
> prevent people from doing evil either. Even without a pope to organize
> them they managed murder and mayhem.
True, but not in order to spread their religion.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Well, 'Asatru' was around for millennia, right up to about 1000yrs ago
so we know what it developed into. As to how it started, we would have
to go back to the pre-IndoEuropean era.
Heidi Graw
>"Marcel Beaudoin" <marcel....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns983FD51CDCCBB...@130.133.1.4...
> Heidi Graw <heid...@shaw.ca> wrote in news:XgHOg.558168$IK3.38197
> @pd7tw1no:
>
>> I know of no accounts where our heathen ancestors waged
>> terror in the name of Odin in order to convert others to their heathen
>> religion.
>Marcel wrote:
> And of course, Ancient Vikings never raped and pillaged villages in the
> name of the gods...
Raiding expeditions in response to Church encroachment. The Vikings learned
pretty quick that the well-financed missionaries brought with them all sorts
of goodies. What the Church collected along the way, the Vikings took away
and redistributed.
Heidi
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Not that I'm aware of, although they certainly raped and pillaged in the
name of fun and profit.
Heidi Graw
(snip)
>Jayne wrote:
> Anyhow, I think I will be unsubbing from SRA. Lately, far too large a
> proportion of the posts are by Heidi for me to be able to enjoy this group
> and I have other demands on my time. I wish you all well.
Suit yourself.
As for me, I'm certainly not going to stop posting into SRA just to make you
happy. Fellow Asatruar went to an awful lot of effort and trouble to create
SRA. And to acknowledge their effort, I've made it my job to post into SRA
as time allows me.
It would be nice to have other Asatruar post into SRA, too. However, I can
understand their reluctance. Many have found private forums to discuss
things away from prying eyes. Currently there are 559 Asatru related
Yahoo.groups. Some are open forums, others private. Even if just one
person from each of those Yahoo groups would post a periodic message, it
would keep SRA quite busy with varied discussions.
Ah well...Usenet is having to compete with Yahoo.groups and other web-based
discussion forums. Not everyone uses a newsreader program either. How many
people actually even know about Usenet? How heavily is it being promoted,
if at all?
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>"Doug Freyburger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1158354107.1...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Heidi Graw wrote:
>> Jayne Kulikauskas wrote:
>> >>Heidi wrote:
>>
>> >> I know that, Jayne. I'm using Papal Bull as a figure of
>> >> speech....Papal
>> >> Bullsh*t. ;-)
>> >Jayne wrote:
>> > In that case you were being offensive rather than ignorant.
>>Heidi wrote:
>> No, Jayne, I'm being defensive.
> Doug wrote:
> And of chose you never admit that you're wrong either.
I don't mind people correcting me when it comes to *factual* errors.
However, when it comes to matters of *opinions*, there is room for
differences of opinion. Your opinion and my opinion could be different, yet
neither one needs to be necessarily wrong.
So, give me an example of when a factual error was pointed out to me that I
did not acknowledge.
>But admit
> it or not, you're wrong fairly regularly.
Like what? Give me an example.
>This is one of those times.
> You were offensive in a place that generally doesn't mind being
> offensive.
Doug, it is my honest and considered opinion, given all I've ever read about
the Catholic Church and about its past and present activities, and about its
dogma, that it is indeed a terror organization.
Terror is defined as follows:
1. A state of intense fear.
2. one that inspires fear.
syn. panic, consternation, dread, alarm, dismay, horror, trepidation.
Terrorism is defined as:
the systematic use of terror esp, as a means of coercion.
Terrorize:
1. to fill with terror, scare
2. to coerce by threat or violence
syn. terrify, frighten, alarm, startle.
>>Heidi wrote:
>> In my book, I rate the Catholic Church as a terror organization.
> Doug wrote:
> You're bashing another religion without comparing to Asatru.
Well...think about the Asatru religion. Do we go around trying to scare
people into the faith? Do we threaten and/or attempt to co-erce people into
the faith? Catholicism does precisely just that kind of thing: Believe and
obey, or go to Hell.
Does Asatru insist on the subjugation of women? Do we in our dogma have
anything that claims 12-year old children who've been raped and gotten
pregnant *must* continue with the pregnancy, no matter what health risks to
that 12-year old the birth experience may have on her immature body? Does
our religion insist we abuse little girls? I don't think so!
Catholicism is abusive and harmful. Its dogmas contribute to the worsening
conditions of humankind and the degradation of the environment. It's akin
to the Taliban and Muslim extremism.
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>"bowman" <bowr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1158369528.8...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Heidi Graw wrote:
>>
>> As for any charitable works the Church provides...they're like those
>> vultures who feed off the bones of the poor and ailing folk. The Church
>> squeezes them even harder and builds a dependency which make it virtually
>> impossible for folks to pull themselves out of the rut. The poor become
>> poorer, the middle class becomes impoverished. It's a rare thing to find
>> a
>> wealthy Catholic. The Church takes and keepeth.
> bowman wrote:
> You really should journey out of your fantasy world every now and then.
> You are confusing the Church with the secular state with which you are
> so enthralled. Speaking of thralls, what do you know about the history
> of the unfree in Europe?
You mean the Catholic/Christian Feudal System? Rather quite exploitive,
wouldn't you agree? It was also fraught with all kinds of power struggles.
The peasants finally had enough and revolted!
As for the slave trade...all sorts of pagans, heathens and Christians
practised slavery. No-one has the high ground in this regard.
In any case, bowman, I know I'm not supposed to "bash" other religions.
But, am I supposed to refrain entirely from criticising other religions?
Should I tone it down to merely claiming, "I find Catholicism unattractive?"
Is that PC enough for SRA?
So, what about freedom of speech? If I'm of the opinion that the Catholic
Church is a terror organization, am I just supposed to keep that to myself?
Shut up about it? I happen to believe my observation of the Church is
legitimate, well reasoned, and based on factual information. The history of
the Church is recorded for anyone to read about. That information allows
people to form opinions. Am I only supposed to write favorable opinions
about other religions?
Here's a laudable thing the Catholic Church allowed for: Women who didn't
want to marry real live men and raise families of their own had the option
of marrying the spirit of Jesus...iwo...they could marry a dead man and
serve the community instead. Being a nun was an alternate choice to being a
wife. Millions of women over the past centuries found marrying a dead man
the more attractive choice over a live one. ;-)
Is there a comparable practise within Asatru? I don't recall reading
anything about Asatru nuns. Priestesses, yes. But, I don't think they
actually married the spirit of one of the deities, did they? Nor do I
recall reading anything about Asatru Priestesses marrying the spirits of
deceased men.
Considering I didn't yet read all the family sagas, I might have missed
reading about this practise.
Heidi
>
Nik Warrensson
<marcel....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Heidi Graw <heid...@shaw.ca> wrote in news:XgHOg.558168$IK3.38197
>@pd7tw1no:
>
>> I know of no accounts where our heathen ancestors waged
>> terror in the name of Odin in order to convert others to their heathen
>> religion.
>
>And of course, Ancient Vikings never raped and pillaged villages in the
>name of the gods...
Indeed men from Scandinavia did raid villages but it is worth noting that,
within Norway, Sweden and Denmark at the time, rape was a crime punishable
by death...
It is also worth noting that practically everybody with the wherewithal to
do so was also...it just happens that the Vikings did it a lot and the
people that they raided happened to be the main body of literate people in
western europe...
Nik
Nik Warrensson
<marcel....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Heidi Graw <heid...@shaw.ca> wrote in
>news:XgHOg.558168$IK3.38197@pd7tw1no:
>
>> I could make a list of all the crimes against humanity that the Church
>> committed...conversion by sword, the German Inquisition, the Spanish
>> Inquisition, collusion with the Nazis, crimes against women and
>> children...however, all that would simply take way too much of my
>> time....I could write *volumes!* As it is, all sorts of other people
>> have already written reports about the abuses committed by the Church,
>> both historically and presently ongoing...<sigh>
>
>Also...
>
>Let Asatru be around for 2000 years, and see just how much it changes from
>how it started.
It has been around considerably longer...if you allow that the modern
incarnation is a recreation of an ancient tradition.
In any event, one thing that I have learned is that it is a mistake to
confuse the behaviour of corrupt/evil/less than perfect individuals and
their actions within an organisation with the central message of that
organisation.
I've made my peace with the Catholic church...and I have to say, I'm quite
glad that I have.
Nik
bowman
Heidi Graw wrote:
>
> You mean the Catholic/Christian Feudal System? Rather quite exploitive,
> wouldn't you agree? It was also fraught with all kinds of power struggles.
> The peasants finally had enough and revolted!
Was the kingdom of Clovis a social paradise before his conversion? Was
the structure described in the Rigsthula any different? Or do we
discard that document as tainted by the Christian feudal system? How
about the society described in the Icelandic sagas? Much is made of the
proto-libertarian democracy -- conveniently ignoring all the slaves
back home slopping the hogs while the big men ran the country through
the intriques of the gothi.
For that matter, what was the outcome of the peasant revolts, either in
France, England, or Germany? Did they have anything better to offer?
For that matter, how are the 21st century peasants doing? The Church
certaily had its problems, but I would contend it also offered several
centuries of comparitive stability.
> In any case, bowman, I know I'm not supposed to "bash" other religions.
> But, am I supposed to refrain entirely from criticising other religions?
> Should I tone it down to merely claiming, "I find Catholicism unattractive?"
> Is that PC enough for SRA?
Calling it a terrorist organization is extreme. My ancestors, and
presumably yours, seemed to have survived a thousand years or so of the
Church.
> So, what about freedom of speech? If I'm of the opinion that the Catholic
> Church is a terror organization, am I just supposed to keep that to myself?
> Shut up about it? I happen to believe my observation of the Church is
> legitimate, well reasoned, and based on factual information. The history of
> the Church is recorded for anyone to read about. That information allows
> people to form opinions. Am I only supposed to write favorable opinions
> about other religions?
If you wish to show your shallowness in a public forum, have at it. The
Gods know it never has slowed you down before. Just keep in mind that,
whatever its roots, the Church was shaped and administered by Europeans
for centuries. If is is a terrorist organization, it found fertile
soil.
> Is there a comparable practise within Asatru? I don't recall reading
> anything about Asatru nuns. Priestesses, yes. But, I don't think they
> actually married the spirit of one of the deities, did they? Nor do I
> recall reading anything about Asatru Priestesses marrying the spirits of
> deceased men.
What we know about the religious in pre-Christian society would fill a
39 cent pocket notebook. Drawing parallels from better documented
paganism, I wouldn't be surprised to find a bride of Wotan or two. I'll
say it again; we don't know. I would be very surprised if the Europeans
were one of the few peoples to have distilled their religious beliefs
into a few suggestions.
Marcel Beaudoin
> In any case, bowman, I know I'm not supposed to "bash" other
> religions. But, am I supposed to refrain entirely from criticising
> other religions? Should I tone it down to merely claiming, "I find
> Catholicism unattractive?" Is that PC enough for SRA?
The thing is, from my point of view, if you persist in bashing other
religions based on historic activities which have been condemned by
todays church leaders, then it opens the door to allowing people to post
in SRA bashing Asatru for being a haven for White Supremicists.
I have the intellectual honesty to admit that the White Supremicists that
practice Odinism or Asatru form only a small part of the religion and
have no bearing or reflection on the whole.
Do you have the intellectual honesty to admit that while the church has
done the things that you have said, it has also apologized for them and
condemned them, adn is in no way related to the church of today.
> So, what about freedom of speech?
If you want freedom of speech, a moderated UseNet forum is the wrong
place to be looking.
> If I'm of the opinion that the
> Catholic Church is a terror organization, am I just supposed to keep
> that to myself? Shut up about it? I happen to believe my observation
> of the Church is legitimate, well reasoned, and based on factual
> information. The history of the Church is recorded for anyone to read
> about. That information allows people to form opinions. Am I only
> supposed to write favorable opinions about other religions?
No, but if you are being honest, you should be including the facts that
the past several popes have said that those things were wrong, and should
never have happened and apologized for it.
Telling only part of the truth, when that part is selected to make
something look bad is just as bad as lieing in my opinion.
> Here's a laudable thing the Catholic Church allowed for: Women who
> didn't want to marry real live men and raise families of their own had
> the option of marrying the spirit of Jesus...iwo...they could marry a
> dead man and serve the community instead. Being a nun was an
> alternate choice to being a wife. Millions of women over the past
> centuries found marrying a dead man the more attractive choice over a
> live one. ;-)
Over the past centuries being the important term in the previous phrases.
Not applicable in todays society.
> Is there a comparable practise within Asatru? I don't recall reading
> anything about Asatru nuns. Priestesses, yes. But, I don't think
> they actually married the spirit of one of the deities, did they? Nor
> do I recall reading anything about Asatru Priestesses marrying the
> spirits of deceased men.
Ahhh, necrophlia.
Or at least that's what I would be accusing Asatru of if I were using
your methods...
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Has it made its peace with you?
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
----- Original Message -----
From: "Heidi Graw" <heid...@shaw.ca>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.asatru
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 7:13 PM
Subject: Miscellaneous Runes
> >"Nik Warrensson" <mi...@iconz.co.nz> wrote in message
>>news:003a01c6d96a$c37763a0$af0ab9d2@huginn...
> (snip)
>
>> I've made my peace with the Catholic church...and I have to say, I'm
>> quite
>> glad that I have.
>>
>> Nik
>
> Nik, the only thing that is preventing the Church from burning you at the
> stake for being Asatru is a flimsy piece of paper with some writing
on it.
> That's it!
>
> http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
> Article 18.
> Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion;
> this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and
freedom,
> either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to
> manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and
> observance.
>
> ****
>
> You can thank a secular humanist for this little bit of protection. The
> Pope and the Ayatollahs hate it, as do assorted Christian
Fundamentalists.
>
> Heidi
Rexx Magnus
> Indeed men from Scandinavia did raid villages but it is worth
> noting that, within Norway, Sweden and Denmark at the time, rape
> was a crime punishable by death...
>
Perhaps, within a domestic or community setting, but it's well-known
that rape was often carried out as an act of humiliation on an enemy
- hence the negative association with homosexual couples. The active
role is accepted, but the passive one is frowned upon for the reason
stated above.
--
http://www.rexx.co.uk
To email me, visit the site.
http://www.rexx.co.uk/runes/ - personal online rune readings
Doug Freyburger
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> >>> Heidi Graw wrote:
>
> >>> In my book, I rate the Catholic Church as a terror organization.
>
>
>
> Fortunately, for us, secular laws have taken the bite out of Catholicism.
This is exactly because "separation of church and state" is real is
actual life. Secular law prevales, church law does not. It's why
Sharia must never be allowed to get so much as lip service in any
court in the civilized world.
Does separation of church and state come out of Asatru? Not
really. It comes out of northern Europe mostly England and it
has arguable Asatru root.
Does the primacy of secular law have Asatru roots? Most
certainly. The secular law was recited at the local and national
Thing.
> I know of no accounts where our heathen ancestors waged
> terror in the name of Odin in order to convert others to their heathen
> religion.
Throughout history pagan armies have conquered, built temples
to their dieties, marched back home, built temples to the dieties
of the conquered peoples who were now part of the nation. Pick
any pagan nation who built temples in the conquered land without
building temples to the gods of the conquered land back home,
and you'll find an example of that. I have no doubt plenty of such
examples occur across history. None of which are ancient Asatru
examples. Part of the reason ancient Asatru fell is it was willing
to add a new diety to the Pantheon not knowing that the new
diety insisted on being the only one followed.
> Should those secular laws ever become dismantled, I'm prepared to bet that
> the Church would take that opportunity to once again search out and destroy
> those who do not submit to the will of the Church.
Secular law and separation of church and state comes from
abuses of church authority in European history. While I like
to stress the Asatru roots of the movement, it happened
because of the Catholic church.
> I could make a list of all the crimes against humanity that the Church
> committed...
You could but doing so would be childish and pointless. Stuff
hundreds of years ago. Stuff which resulted in the primacy
of secular law and the separation of church and state that are
among the highest principles of human acheivement, and the
church grew up and started living within those principles.
Hail Asgard!
Doug Freyburger
bowman
Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> Does separation of church and state come out of Asatru? Not
> really. It comes out of northern Europe mostly England and it
> has arguable Asatru root.
As long as the king or queen of the United Kingdom holds the title
'Defender of the Faith' and is annoited during the coronation, I would
question the separation. James I was one of the more eloquent defenders
of the concept of the divine right of kings, on which point he was
challenged by Robert Bellarmine, a Jesuit.