Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Age Differences

66 views
Skip to first unread message

John Howard Osborn

unread,
Mar 15, 1990, 2:11:51 AM3/15/90
to
Well, we did it. Against all our better judgement, we fell in love.
He is 27, I'm 20. We are both concerned about the difference in ages.
Yes, I know that 7 years isn't that long a time, but at our ages it feels
like it. There is a tremendous difference between a couple aged 27 & 20
and a couple aged 47 and 40. So, I'd like to see some discussion about
the experiences people have had with age differences in relationships.
In other words, is there anything that we should be aware of as we grow
together.


-
John H. Osborn * University of Texas at Austin Comp. Sci. Dept.
osb...@cs.utexas.edu * "Love your SysAdmin."
"Ooooo, *sex*, IIIIIICCKKY-DOO-DOO!" -Clay Bond (bo...@spdcc.COM)

Douglas Gault

unread,
Mar 15, 1990, 10:26:57 AM3/15/90
to
In article <81...@cs.utexas.edu> osb...@cs.utexas.edu (John Howard Osborn) writes:
>Well, we did it. Against all our better judgement, we fell in love.
>He is 27, I'm 20. We are both concerned about the difference in ages.
>Yes, I know that 7 years isn't that long a time, but at our ages it feels
>like it. There is a tremendous difference between a couple aged 27 & 20
>and a couple aged 47 and 40. So, I'd like to see some discussion about
>the experiences people have had with age differences in relationships.
>In other words, is there anything that we should be aware of as we grow
>together.
>-
>John H. Osborn
BRAVO!! BRAVO!! ... C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S ...

I for one am very happy for you... HOWEVER....(you knew this was comming didn't you...)

Take a look back in your own life to when you were 20... What were you like. What were
your views on people, politics, RELATIONSHIPS.... Now, I realize that your new/potential
SO is not you.. And may be much more mature than most people his own age, As some of us
are (I am 22 going on 40...)

For example, I am attracted to, and would rather date people of my own age or younger,
and this has created a problem for me when it comes to starting a relationship...
Many of the people my age are still at the maturity level of a 17 year old..
All they wanna do is party and F##K (oops sorry that was very un-PC of me...)
Not that that is bad... I think most of us went through this stage...
(I just went through it when I was 17...).

** NOW PLEASE... NO FLAMES FROM THE 23 AND UNDER CROWD.. When I said MANY I ment many **
** of the people I have been exposed to ... I can not speak for those who I have not **
** met.. BUT from personal experience I have to say that most of the people my age **
** that I have met are just not (or choose not to be) very mature when it comes to **
** commitments and relationships.

I guess what you should really look at is:

Do you love each other?

If yes, Then not much else matters... Although there are still
some gotchas out there... (My ex and I STILL love each other but
we have been apart for about a year... Because of one of those
"gotchas"... He became confused as to his "OREINTATION" and
wanted to date women again.. (EEWWW!) It was very hard for me..
But not totally unforseen....) If you are both sincere, and both
in love.. AGE should make NO DIFFERENCE WHAT SO EVER...

I wish you NOTHING but happiness and Love... Good Luck..

Doug.

=======================================================================
In the immortal words of Bill the Cat ....
________
" ... ACK! THPPPPPP! .... " \ /
\ /
\ /
Doug Gault (dga...@digi.UUCP) \/
======================================================================

Bob Donahue

unread,
Mar 15, 1990, 11:33:18 AM3/15/90
to
[John O., asks a questions about age differences, and yesterday
Erik B. makes a statement about those who self-ID as straight acting.]

It does bug me that our community is SOOOOO age/lookist oriented.
Although we insist that were are "very accepting" due largely, I 'spose
to the fact the we're an oppressed minority or sorts, but as more time passes
I guess I'm seeing too much of the other side... Look at the way we present
ourselves in the media: gays are: 1) VERY youthful in appearence, 2) VERY
well built, muscular, not an ounce of fat, 3) very hairless [no doubt to
reflect #1], and 4) vcery blond :-) and oceanically oriented...

... Which is just fine, provided you naturally fit into any
or all of those categories, you have a lot to be happy about; many
people would consider you very beautiful, and do.

But, looking at the flipside, I am aghast: people who see the
light of some magic age (I'll call it 30) are now "over the hill".
Those who were born, let's say a more comfortable distance from the
apocalypse, are VERY much shunned, unwelcome, "trolls", etc. Here are
people who lived as active gay people at the time of Stonewasll and before
(I was just a little too late, OK 10 yearsplus a little...), who have
paved the way to where we are today. Sure there's still plenty to be
done, but we wouldn't even be THIS far (and probably not even *close*
given our current "kind and gentle (and Opressive)" society. Hrmpf.

It would be very nice if we could display to the outside world
what we say we believe on the inside. It would be nice to be an
example to the outer community to show our diversities and how we
rejoice in them. (For starters slightly er, "un-built" bearcubs
modelling Levi 501's would be a start... They really think that if
I wore those jeans I would look like their models, or even sillier
they expect ME to believe that, or believe that I want to look like
that. I come in a 34/30; BBC size, shape and appearance. Why would I
want to look like someone else when inside I look like me?

There's a guy who hangs out at one of the local "Bars"
(read 70's style disco with music so loud it would drown out
the noise on the tarmacs at most airports), whoin the 3 years
I have lived here has somehow achieved a hair color that can
be most likely expressed as "crayola yellow". It's obvious
(at least to me) that his intent is such that if he tries to look
much younger than he really is, he'll be "better"... His perogative
I guess, but IMHO it's very silly.

And to add my $0.03 on the straight acting/appearing thing.
What you see is what you get, and if it walks like a duck and quacks....
Like I said before, I look like me. The *image* I get when I hear
"straight looking" is something not unentirely unlike what I feel I
look like. I don't want to be stright, I am not trying to "keep my
little dark secret", I am not ashamed to be with gfay people.
I *am* however quite offended, that someone would think this. Why?...

Here we have set up a society where when people hear
the word "gay" or "homosexual" they conjure up an image of a
"type" of person. We, on the other hand will admit that gays
like stright folk, like pine trees, come in tall shapes and sizes,
but when we have the opportunity to express this, we give the media
(generally) exactly what the "default" picture is. Look at the
new gay soap opera (of which I have seen clips)... Look at the
ads in IM or GQ, etc. Look at the portrayal of most gay people
in books, TV, moveis, plays, etc. And then someone has the
(pardon the expression) balls to say that I am internally homophobic
because I want to look like I naturally do, and not look like
we-whho-are-all-the-same? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Time to place
one ruby slipper on the OTHER foot m'dear, and perhaps the other
one in your mouth...

I don't want to look like anyone else but me. i don't
want everyone else to think that they should look like me. You(pl.)
set up the rules on "fashion" and "eyepleasing" etc... I don't have
to follow them... You don't like the phrase "straight-acting, etc."?
Then rewrite *your* rules so that all of us are better accepted/included.
Gee, eventually no one will be able to tell ANY Of us apart from
anyone else. (horrors) No barriers. Wow what a nice concept!

Sorry Erik... you don't go to the bonus round, you
don't win the Maytag washer... You don't even get a copy of the home
games for that one...


BBC, or BtT whichever you prefer... it's all the same onthe outside
and inside as well....
()() | BBC a/k/a Bobby bear cub a/k/a Bob Donahue
() ()() | rdon...@arktouros.mit.edu
() () | (and other places)
() |

Lindsay Patten

unread,
Mar 15, 1990, 3:02:29 PM3/15/90
to
In article <1990Mar15.1...@athena.mit.edu> rdon...@arktouros.MIT.EDU (Bob Donahue) writes:

>Look at the way we present ourselves in the media:

I think the question you have to ask is who is this "we" that you
perceive is presenting us to the media?

> But, looking at the flipside, I am aghast: people who see the
>light of some magic age (I'll call it 30) are now "over the hill".
>Those who were born, let's say a more comfortable distance from the
>apocalypse, are VERY much shunned, unwelcome, "trolls", etc.

But by whom? By 19 year old fashion fanatics for sure. While there
are definately some 35 year olds trying to fit in with the 20 year
olds my perception is that the majority of people are attracted to
people of their own approximate age. I know that the average age
of people I'm attracted to has followed my own age fairly closely.
Most of my over 30 friends have as little interest in teenagers as
vica versa.

I think most of the examples you gave (levi adds, IM, GQ) involve
advertisers trying to sell goods not the gay community trying to
project an image for itself. In fact, I don't see the gay community
(whatever that is) having much input at all.

> And to add my $0.03 on the straight acting/appearing thing.
>What you see is what you get, and if it walks like a duck and quacks....
>Like I said before, I look like me. The *image* I get when I hear
>"straight looking" is something not unentirely unlike what I feel I
>look like.

And I think this is the basis of the argument against the term,
here we are buying into the stereotypes to the extent that our own
internal images correspond to society's twisted notions. As long
as "straight looking" and "gay looking" conjure different images
there are deep seated stereotypes in action.

I do think that stating that anyone who describes themselves as
"straight looking/acting" is self hating is wrong, some are, but
most are just following misguided but generally accepted practice.

Cheers,
Lindsay

Lindsay Patten Never get angry at stupid people! -Erasure
Pattern Analysis & Machine Intelligence Group lin...@watnow.uwaterloo.ca
Department of Systems Design Engineering lin...@watnext.waterloo.edu
University of Waterloo {utai|decvax|uunet}!watmath!watnext!lindsay

Lance A. Sibley

unread,
Mar 15, 1990, 9:18:26 PM3/15/90
to
In article <81...@cs.utexas.edu> osb...@cs.utexas.edu (John Howard Osborn) writes:
>Well, we did it. Against all our better judgement, we fell in love.
>He is 27, I'm 20. We are both concerned about the difference in ages.
>Yes, I know that 7 years isn't that long a time, but at our ages it feels
>like it. There is a tremendous difference between a couple aged 27 & 20
>and a couple aged 47 and 40. So, I'd like to see some discussion about
>the experiences people have had with age differences in relationships.
>In other words, is there anything that we should be aware of as we grow
>together.

I have found myself in two relationships where I have been the younger
by a good number of years. In my relationship with David, who is 7 years
older than me, I found that I was feeling a lot of pressure to mature
faster than I wanted to. This, I feel, is not a good thing; I tended to
feel a bit resentful at times.

I don't think it was a *personal* resentment; even now, 6 months after
we broke up, we're still friends. But the fact that I was only just
realising that I was attracted to men, and the fact that he'd been out
for about 5 years, forced me to confront my own sexuality perhaps a bit
quicker than I would have liked.

And the fact that I was a virgin, in both the physical *and* psychological
sense (thanks, no doubt, to my parents' ideas of "discussing" sex...by
giving me a book on sex and telling me that it was wrong to masturbate...),
and the fact that Dave is something of a masochist, didn't help either,
I'm sure.

In my relationship with Linda, who is 11 years older than me (I'll keep
this short, as I'm not certain of the PC-ness of posting about het
relationships in this group, even if I *have* a point to make...) I was
a little bit shy at first, but Linda never pressured me. As a result, I
felt a lot more at ease in the relationship despite her advantage in
maturity and experience.

I think now that I'd be very hesitant about getting involved with a much
older person (of *either* gender) unless they were prepared to deal with
my relative inexperience. (Give me a couple of years, though, and I may
no longer worry about it.) It's quite possible that you may be a lot more
sexually experienced and mature than I am, in which case you can take any
or all of my comments with the proverbial grain of salt.

--
Lance A. Sibley "Americans know as much about Canada as straight people do
U. of Waterloo about gays. Americans arrive at the border with skis in
Waterloo, Ontario July, and straight people think being gay is just a phase."
- Scott Thompson, "The Kids in the Hall"

Henry Mensch

unread,
Mar 15, 1990, 10:24:08 PM3/15/90
to
lin...@watnow.waterloo.edu (Lindsay Patten) wrote:
->I think most of the examples you gave (levi adds, IM, GQ) involve
->advertisers trying to sell goods not the gay community trying to
->project an image for itself. In fact, I don't see the gay community
->(whatever that is) having much input at all.

i don't believe the 'gay community' (wtf that is...) has formal input
in this process, but we know for a fact that many employed in the
creative departments of ad agencies are "traditionally masculine"
queers who wouldn't say shit if they had a mouthful if an ad campaign
they were working on exploited uncomplimentary (and, presumably
untrue) stereotypes of gay or lesbian people.

i also believe that most of these ads aren't created specifically for
gay markets (although i'm sure that some are, i expect that most
aren't).

having said that, i do want to get to know the guy who appears in the
REV2 ads (in new york's village voice) better ... he's not the sort i
notice usually, but sometimes one has to make exceptions.

# Henry Mensch / <he...@garp.mit.edu> / E40-379 MIT, Cambridge, MA
# <hme...@uk.ac.nsfnet-relay> / <he...@tts.lth.se> / <men...@munnari.oz.au>

Amelia T. Smith

unread,
Mar 16, 1990, 8:34:47 AM3/16/90
to
In article <81...@cs.utexas.edu>, osb...@cs.utexas.edu (John Howard Osborn) writes:
> Well, we did it. Against all our better judgement, we fell in love.
> He is 27, I'm 20. We are both concerned about the difference in ages.
> Yes, I know that 7 years isn't that long a time, but at our ages it feels
> like it. There is a tremendous difference between a couple aged 27 & 20
> and a couple aged 47 and 40. So, I'd like to see some discussion about
> the experiences people have had with age differences in relationships.
> In other words, is there anything that we should be aware of as we grow
> together.

CONGRATULATIONS!

I fell in love with my current SO (10-year anniversary in less than a month!)
at the tender (HAH! As if *I* could ever have been considered tender!) age
of 23. Mine schweetie was 30 at the time. Verily, I say unto you, seven years
may or may not mean anything. We've (me and mine) found that we're essentially
of the same generation, have very similar value systems, and were at
approximately the same level of maturity when we tumbled into this encoupled
bliss. Our differences have served to enrich our relationship (sometimes after
*MUCH* teeth-gnashing and sighing and some of those other things that go with
disagreements and misunderstanding).

How to answer your question more succinctly...I suppose I can just say be
aware of each other. Be aware of your individual selves. Be honest with
yourselves and each other. And if this relationship is destined to work,
you will have done everything destiny requires. I hope your relationship
lasts as long and as well as I expect mine to.

Hugs and other happiness,

Amelia

P.S. I've said it before, but I should probably say it again, we don't live
together - by mutual choice. It's inconvenient when we suddenly want to be
together *right now*, but it works very well otherwise. Keeps us both saner.
(Can you imagine living with someone like me? Sometimes I'm too much for me!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard disclaimer applies! University of Pennsylvania
Medical School Computer Facility
Internet: sm...@mscf.med.upenn.edu C511 Richards Bldg.
Voice: (215) 898-7158 (work) Philadelphia, PA 19104-6062 U.S.A.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

$Elaine_May

unread,
Mar 17, 1990, 12:25:45 PM3/17/90
to
> So, I'd like to see some discussion about
> the experiences people have had with age differences in relationships.
> In other words, is there anything that we should be aware of as we grow
> together.

All my relationships have been with older women. In two cases, the
age difference was very significant (>10 years). My SO now is 44 and
I am 29. I am more mature than she in some ways and she is more mature
than I in some ways so it works out quite well. In my previous relationship,
I had always had a "big sister/little sister" relationship with this woman,
and after a little while it started feeling too incestous for the both
of us.

IMHO, it is not so much the *age* difference that makes relationships wierd
sometimes as it is the *maturity* difference. My current relationship works
well because I can help Bess out with her trials at work and she helps me
out with my inexperience in settling down with someone. Barbara and I
stopped being lovers because I always felt "younger" with her. Perhaps this
is no big deal for either you or your SO, but for me, it is important.

I matured a great deal between 20 and 28: first sexual experiences, first
career job, etc... I'm a lot different now than I was then. My first lover
has changed a great deal as well (she was only 3 weeks older than me). I
don't think we could have stayed together through all those changes. Betty
Barbozian (sp?) who wrote Permanent Partners mentions this as something
to watch out for. As the younger person grows, will the older person
be able to adjust? (She is 15 years older than her SO which made me
feel better about Bess & I).

At any rate -- Congratulations! I wish you and your lover the best.

Elaine May
HP Manufacturing Test Division
Loveland CO
elaine%hpm...@hplabs.hp.com -OR- elaine%hpm...@hp-sde.hp.com

Doug Matlock

unread,
Mar 16, 1990, 8:18:17 PM3/16/90
to

7 Years age difference? Of all the gay couples I know (including my
very own personal one), that is one of the smallest differences. Most
are about 10, but I do know one couple only 5 years apart.

I have been told age difference matters more in heterosexual relationships
(I don't know).

Problems? Well, when one is settling down and the other is still playful
and when one has retired and the other is still working seem to be common
crisis periods. FWIW.
--
Doug.

"If you want Peace, work for Justice."

Chris Thomas

unread,
Mar 17, 1990, 7:14:34 PM3/17/90
to
In article <1990Mar15.1...@athena.mit.edu>
rdon...@arktouros.MIT.EDU (Bob Donahue) writes:
>Look at the way we present
>ourselves in the media: gays are: 1) VERY youthful in appearence, 2) VERY
>well built, muscular, not an ounce of fat, 3) very hairless [no doubt to
>reflect #1], and 4) vcery blond :-) and oceanically oriented...
>
> ... Which is just fine, provided you naturally fit into any
>or all of those categories, you have a lot to be happy about; many
>people would consider you very beautiful, and do.

Look at the way that -all- of society portrays itself in the media: very
youthful in appearance; very well built, muscular; .... I don't really
see much difference, except that we have a much smaller universe of
"examples from the media" to pick from.

> But, looking at the flipside, I am aghast: people who see the
>light of some magic age (I'll call it 30) are now "over the hill".
>Those who were born, let's say a more comfortable distance from the
>apocalypse, are VERY much shunned, unwelcome, "trolls", etc.

As someone who is rapidly approaching the top of that hill, I often find
myself fretting about this. However, the only people I really see getting
"shunned" are those that use their age to devalue themselves. This
manifests itself in how they present themselves to their self and others:
physical appearance, clothing, eye contact, and attitude, to name but a
few traits. If that person feels bad about themselves because they're
31 and un-beachworthy -- or even because they're 22 and very beachworthy
-- then others will naturally feel uncomfortable around them and, yes,
they will not feel welcome.

>Why would I want to look like someone else when inside I look like me?

Good choice of words. A more common situation -- and the one I've found
myself in before -- is that how I looked didn't, in my opinion, accurately
portray "me". So, yes, I've worked on it over a period of two years (not
fully there yet) -- not because I have a burning desire to look like the
guy in the "probe your options" ad, but because I didn't want to hide
behind 210 pounds of what I don't feel I am. (Please, no claims that I've
been brainwashed by those very ads. For me, good health goes beyond a
good pair of 501's -- it works for me; it may or may not work for you;
that's -your- choice, not mine.)

>It's obvious
>(at least to me) that his intent is such that if he tries to look
>much younger than he really is, he'll be "better"... His perogative
>I guess, but IMHO it's very silly.

How does one "look" 30, 40, or 20? Maybe you have an impression of
what "30" looks like, but I'll bet everyone has a different impression.
So what if it's silly? :) I think it's fantastic to let oneself go
like that (I wish I did it more often!). Now, if he's only doing it
out of desparation, that's another story entirely....

>We, on the other hand will admit that gays

>like stright folk, like pine trees, come in tall shapes and sizes...

Bravo...

>...but when we have the opportunity to express this, we give the media


>(generally) exactly what the "default" picture is.

...but every other group does just about the same thing. Maybe we should
just try harder.

>You(pl.)
>set up the rules on "fashion" and "eyepleasing" etc... I don't have
>to follow them...

That's right. You have to set -your- rules, and I have to set -mine-,
and heaven forbid one of us should try to impose our rules on the other.

--
Chris Thomas, Litton/Integrated Automation
1301 Harbor Bay Parkway, Alameda, California 93501
+1 415 769-5560 {uunet,sfsun}!lia!thomas
"It's in every one of us..."

Christina Lanter

unread,
Mar 18, 1990, 8:26:37 PM3/18/90
to

_It's about time!_BBC keeps telling me! But thanks to his help, I may have
figured this system out enough to post!

There were so many things I wanted to reply to, but I thought the best way
to do so would be to present a *short* sketch of myself in a way that might
demonstrate some of MHOs about various topics, for anyone who may want to
read them.

I'm 25; my SO is 34, and we're still doing great after 2+ years, but in
general that's probably because we are compatable *individuals*.

I'm a lot of things, like a student of medical anthropology and also a
Dyke, Lesbian, womon-who-Loves-womyn, etc. and I use those words because
I enjoy taking the power back from them. If someone calls me a _Dyke_ I
merely smile and call them a _Straight_! I believe every group has an _us_
and _them_ and vocabulary which distinguishes the two. I think many of us
have merely taken this vocabulary and its impact away from _them_ and give it
back to _us._

Well, that's it! Hi motssers! I'll be estatic if this runs!

| | Chris Lanter cla...@hydra.unm.edu (internet)
| ! ! | clanter@unmb (bitnet)
| ` ' "Some people think Sappho was a little touched...
\ \__/ I just think she loved that touch we all love so much!"
| | Chris Lanter cla...@hydra.unm.edu (internet)
| ! ! | clanter@unmb (bitnet)
| ` ' "Some people think Sappho was a little touched...
\ \__/ I just think she loved that touch we all love so much!"

Robert Kelly

unread,
Mar 19, 1990, 1:27:17 AM3/19/90
to
Christina Lanter writes:
>
>Well, that's it! Hi motssers! I'll be estatic if this runs!

Well, we are too, Chris :)

Now, I would like to tell you that I did have the honor
of meeting the little Bear Cub Bob Donohue last night at
the bar and had little time to talk to him. I'd like
everyone to send me all you can on the Little Furball :)
so I can have some leverage and blackmail information.

What does this have to do with Chris? Well, she is a
friend of Monica, who I know pretty well and Bob stayed
the nights he was up here in Albuquerque with ...
-------<gossip-gossip>--------------

And he THREATENED me with a smear campaign since he knows
all of you..

Bob, this is a subtle way of saying, I wish we could have talked more...
Give me a Talk, I really enjoyed talking to you on the phone.

Bob Kelly-----
rkelly@hydra (or carina) .unm.edu

"Bend Over, Master? But Yesterday you told me to..."
"Ahhh, Grasshopper, That was Zen, this is Tao."
-James Miera

Steve Dyer

unread,
Mar 19, 1990, 8:33:40 AM3/19/90
to
In article <81...@cs.utexas.edu> osb...@cs.utexas.edu (John Howard Osborn) writes:
>So, I'd like to see some discussion about
>the experiences people have had with age differences in relationships.
>In other words, is there anything that we should be aware of as we grow
>together.

There is a 10 year age difference between my lover and me. I'm 34, he's 44.
While I would say that it hasn't been that big a deal, all in all, it IS true
that a space of 10 years is going to emphasize some different priorities.
For example, I'm still a bit of a blithe spirit in financial matters, whereas
he's beginning to start thinking seriously about security, financial stability,
planning for retirement, etc. Just the other day, he remarked that it helped
for him to remember that when he was my age, he didn't worry at all about these
things either, which I thought was a rather interesting and illuminating
comment.

--
Steve Dyer
dy...@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
dy...@arktouros.mit.edu, dy...@hstbme.mit.edu

Steven Fruitbat Foster

unread,
Mar 19, 1990, 3:51:10 AM3/19/90
to

In article <3...@mscf.med.upenn.edu>, sm...@mscf.med.upenn.edu (Amelia T. Smith) writes...

>I fell in love with my current SO (10-year anniversary in less than a month!)
>at the tender (HAH! As if *I* could ever have been considered tender!) age
>of 23. Mine schweetie was 30 at the time. Verily, I say unto you, seven years
>may or may not mean anything. We've (me and mine) found that we're essentially
>of the same generation, have very similar value systems, and were at
>approximately the same level of maturity when we tumbled into this encoupled
>bliss. Our differences have served to enrich our relationship (sometimes after
>*MUCH* teeth-gnashing and sighing and some of those other things that go with
>disagreements and misunderstanding).

But is being similar a particularly good thing? True, it gets rid of a few
of the disagreements, but it takes some of the fun out of it. To be in a
relationship that's going to be successful, you need to learn how to cope
with differences in opinion. But I doubt that anybody who has had the
misfortune to have tangled with me would agree :-)

I don't personally think that age has got anything to do with it. If people
don't mind having a fruitbat that runs about excitedly making silly meeping
noises, then thats fine by me. I don't want to grow up and become all sober
and serious for as long as possible. But then I suppose all those ancients
out there have learned how to tolerate us young things...

Happy anniversary BTW, I hope you'll wish me the same when its mine (we
can swap wheelchair anecdotes - I'll be over thirty. Meep!)

>How to answer your question more succinctly...I suppose I can just say be
>aware of each other. Be aware of your individual selves. Be honest with
>yourselves and each other. And if this relationship is destined to work,
>you will have done everything destiny requires. I hope your relationship
>lasts as long and as well as I expect mine to.

And maybe the world will be a nicer place as a result. Theres enough vitriol
about at the moment around here.

>(Can you imagine living with someone like me? Sometimes I'm too much for me!)

Well if you stopped being so wonderful, maybe you'd have less to be jealous
about :-)

Fruitbat.

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Steve Fruitbat Foster | fos...@jumbly.dec.com [+...@uk.ac.nsfnet-relay] |
| Digital Equipment Corp. | s...@rosemary.cs.reading.ac.uk (If you have to) |
| Reading, UK. |--------------------------------------------------|
+-------------------------+ These opinions are mine and not those of DEC. +

So this is the real world? Meeeeep. I don't want it. I want Snuffy. <sob>
There's work, bills, the poll tax and <whisper> *heterosexuals* Meep!

Jonathan

unread,
Mar 19, 1990, 7:22:50 AM3/19/90
to
In article <81...@cs.utexas.edu> osb...@cs.utexas.edu (John Howard Osborn) writes:
>Well, we did it. Against all our better judgement, we fell in love.
>He is 27, I'm 20. We are both concerned about the difference in ages.
>Yes, I know that 7 years isn't that long a time, but at our ages it feels
>like it. There is a tremendous difference between a couple aged 27 & 20
>and a couple aged 47 and 40. So, I'd like to see some discussion about
>the experiences people have had with age differences in relationships.
>In other words, is there anything that we should be aware of as we grow
>together.

My SO is 23 I am 37. We have been together almost 15 months and we
are very much in love. Our age difference seems to add rather than
detract from our relationship. I find myself doing things I haven't
done for years...his biggest problem is trying to coax me to do these
things :-).

From my viewpoint, maybe its the age difference that created the
relationship in the first place. Up until know I haven't had any
longterm relationships...maybe I wasn't dating anyone young enough for
me :-)

15 months isn't that long, so I don't know what the future will
hold...but for know, I am very very happy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ps Thank you henry for the account. Thus allowing me to post for
the first time (I've been a poppy seed muffin for over a year (My SO
is a Wasa Crisp bread muffin))

Amelia T. Smith

unread,
Mar 19, 1990, 8:58:00 AM3/19/90
to
In article <93...@shlump.nac.dec.com>, fos...@jumbly.dec.com (Steven Fruitbat Foster) writes:
>
> In article <3...@mscf.med.upenn.edu>, sm...@mscf.med.upenn.edu (Amelia T. Smith) writes...
>> [stuff deleted]

>> Our differences have served to enrich our relationship (sometimes after
>>*MUCH* teeth-gnashing and sighing and some of those other things that go with
>>disagreements and misunderstanding).
>
> But is being similar a particularly good thing? True, it gets rid of a few
> of the disagreements, but it takes some of the fun out of it. To be in a
> relationship that's going to be successful, you need to learn how to cope
> with differences in opinion. But I doubt that anybody who has had the
> misfortune to have tangled with me would agree :-)

Note that I did *not* say we're exactly alike, *and* that I said our
differences have have enriched (Is that a legitimate word?) our
relationship.

> I don't personally think that age has got anything to do with it. If people
> don't mind having a fruitbat that runs about excitedly making silly meeping
> noises, then thats fine by me. I don't want to grow up and become all sober
> and serious for as long as possible. But then I suppose all those ancients
> out there have learned how to tolerate us young things...

I don't know 'bout meeping fruitbats, but I intend to remain as child-like
as possible. (I hope to avoid childish, but childlike is ok.)



> Happy anniversary BTW, I hope you'll wish me the same when its mine (we
> can swap wheelchair anecdotes - I'll be over thirty. Meep!)

Thenk yew. Catch me on a cold, rainy day in Philadelphia, and I'm almost
ready to look for a wheelchair now! (An old athletic injury, doncha know!)
But then again, I'm already over thirty - and got the gray hairs to prove it!
(Yes, there too.)

>>(Can you imagine living with someone like me? Sometimes I'm too much for me!)
>
> Well if you stopped being so wonderful, maybe you'd have less to be jealous
> about :-)

<blush> Thank you. And same to you.

Amelia

David R. Preston

unread,
Mar 19, 1990, 6:04:08 PM3/19/90
to
In article <59...@ozdaltx.UUCP> do...@ozdaltx.UUCP (Doug Matlock) writes:
>
>7 Years age difference? Of all the gay couples I know (including my
>very own personal one), that is one of the smallest differences. Most
>are about 10, but I do know one couple only 5 years apart.

My cuddle-bear is chronologically about 17 years older than I am.

>Problems? Well, when one is settling down and the other is still playful...

Especially when it's the younger of the two who is settling down and
the elder who is still "playful".... :-)


d...@muslix.llnl.gov Information gladly given, but safety
requires the avoidance of unnecessary conversation
D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA

Rich Braun

unread,
Mar 19, 1990, 6:19:18 PM3/19/90
to
dy...@ursa-major.spdcc.COM (Steve Dyer) writes:
> I'm still a bit of a blithe spirit in financial matters, whereas he's
>beginning to start thinking seriously about security, financial stability,
>planning for retirement, etc. Just the other day, he remarked that it helped
>for him to remember that when he was my age, he didn't worry at all about
>these things either, which I thought was a rather interesting and illuminating
>comment.

Sigh. I guess I'm old before my time. I opened my first IRA and Keough-
like pension plan at age 22.

;-)

-rich
P.S. You know the worst thing about finally considering yourself an adult
instead of a "youth"? Insurance. Insurance premiums, claims,
surcharges, agents, everything.

Christina Lanter

unread,
Mar 19, 1990, 6:08:32 PM3/19/90
to
>In article <81...@cs.utexas.edu> osb...@cs.utexas.edu (John Howard Osborn) writes:
>>So, I'd like to see some discussion about
>>the experiences people have had with age differences in relationships

I've already posted saying that me and my SO are 10 years apart, but I want
to ammend that to explain that age differences have had their disadvantages
and some pressure. It took me a long time to understand one of the pressures,
and that it was about our age. The pressure was a feeling of being tied down
to settle down before I intended to. I'm an anthro-type, and I had intended to
galavant around here and there as much as I could before my GSLs were due...
but whamo!! I fell head over heals for a womon who wanted a nice home, cat,
microwave, etc. etc.

Well, to make a short story short, I finally realized why I was sometimes
angry with our life-style. So, we talked about it (thankfully I'm in a
relationship where we can talk!) and we realized that I don't have to
accept everything about the lifestyle she wants. It takes comprimise on
both sides, but now I'm looking for a job in Mexico or South America for
the summer (anything!!) and she still gets the cat (kitty-terror-from-Hell)
and the microwave (and the matching towel-set, etc.)

Of course, there are advantages, too!! For example, as a womon in her early
thirties, she should be going through her sexual prime about now. Then, in
about ten years, we get to go through mine!

Frank MALONEY

unread,
Mar 20, 1990, 1:04:44 PM3/20/90
to
[lots of interesting talk about the younger/older paradigm]

Lyn was born in 1929 and I was born in 1945, so we're both
old farts now (60 and 44, today at least). We've been
together since 1976. I must say that sometimes I miss the
febrile passions of when we first met (and the cute little
1st apartment we got condo'd out of), but I definitely do
not miss the tensions that arose out of not enough money and
my thrashing around to find myself (any more than I miss
depending on the kindness of strange landlords).

After I found myself at Microsoft, the squeaking-by days
squoke their last and we could at last really concentrate on
home remodeling, which what the middle-aged and older use as
a sex-substitute.

Lately, we let a younger, mostly het friend of ours move
into our "mother-in-law apartment" in exchange for his labor
and energy. We had gotten into some deep, comfortable ruts
and Robobob (as I named him in a fit of fittingness) has
really shaken us up. I'm supposed to be his work-out partner
when we gets some weights, &c., set up in the basement. Lyn
stays awake way past 8 o'clock some nights. Work is getting
done that we had successfully closed our eyes to for
(literally) years. On the other hand, we find ourselves
getting sucked into his 29-year-old's morass of personal
problems, finding himself, finding and keeping a
job-with-a-future, defining his own complicated sexuality, &c.

He drinks too much, he's too noisy,
bossy, and obscene; he demands a lot of attention. By summer
we ought to know if it is going to work out or had been an
unfortunate mistake. But so far, I'd say we're a better
couple for letting Robobob into our lives and home than we
would have been in our previous sleepy twilight of
home-improvement magazines and quiet, good books
and purring cats. Pretty boring.

And now we have something to complain about besides my mother.


--
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
Disclaimer: Microsoft doesn't even know I work here.
"Something's wrong with my throat. It must be laryngitis"
- Daffy Duck

Linc Madison

unread,
Mar 20, 1990, 9:57:47 PM3/20/90
to
A couple of points caught my eye in this discussion. I'm currently in
a relationship (note that relationship != Relationship...) with someone
who is 22 to my 26. It's a rather complicated situation in many respects,
one of those where we almost feel we're too close as friends to consider
being lovers.

Another complication, though, is that I occasionally get freaked out
thinking about the fact that he is now about the age I was when I came
out, and yet he has had far more Experience of the World than I have
even now. Yea, indeed, he had had more experience by the time he was
18 than I have had now at 26. At 18, I hadn't even masturbated yet!
I am thus in the position that someone (sorry -- lost track of who)
mentioned about the younger one being ready to settle down and the
older one wanting to go play with all the other kids in the playground.
As I commented to a mutual friend, "Yes, but *he's* the older and wiser
one!"

On an aside, for those of you following the Barrington Hall saga, it
is calming down to where life almost seems semi-normal. We have a
court hearing tomorrow on our motion for summary judgment; keep your
fingers crossed.

-- Linc Madison = rmad...@euler.berkeley.edu
"Yn ddilys ar ddydd ei roi'n unig" [No, it's *not* a letter-substitution code!]

Mike Lipsie

unread,
Mar 21, 1990, 11:15:28 AM3/21/90
to
In article <52...@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> d...@muslix.llnl.gov (David R. Preston) writes:
>In article <59...@ozdaltx.UUCP> do...@ozdaltx.UUCP (Doug Matlock) writes:
>>
>>7 Years age difference? Of all the gay couples I know (including my
>>very own personal one), that is one of the smallest differences. Most
>>are about 10, but I do know one couple only 5 years apart.
>
>My cuddle-bear is chronologically about 17 years older than I am.

16 1/2, but who's counting?

>>Problems? Well, when one is settling down and the other is still playful...
>
>Especially when it's the younger of the two who is settling down and
>the elder who is still "playful".... :-)

We have had some age related problems but they've been minor. The
more major problems have been just because we are two different
individuals. In some ways we are too much alike; in some, we are
much too different. But that's what make life (and love) great.

And don't let him fool you. He is plenty playful. (Excessive
thanks to whichever diety is appropriate. :-)

-----------
Mike Lipsie mi...@pyramid.com
Pyramid Technology Corp, Mountain View, CA +1 415 335 8657
"Toto kansasoseum non est cognito" -- Phil Frank

Wendy Thrash

unread,
Mar 21, 1990, 4:17:04 PM3/21/90
to
David R. Preston:

>>My cuddle-bear is chronologically about 17 years older than I am.
Mike Lipsie:

>16 1/2, but who's counting?

Well, since these two are responsible for the cupcake* and I having
gotten together**, I thought I'd say a word or two.

I'm 18 1/2 years older than the cupcake. She was born about two
months before I got my B.S. When I think like that, things seem
rather scary. They also seem scary when I think about the other
end of life, when I could be 70 with her just hitting her fifties.
Nevertheless, if we make it that far, we'll cope.

There are times when I want to club her over the head and scream
"Don't _do_ that! I did that twenty years ago! It just doesn't
work!" but as I often have similar impulses with strangers it's
probably not specific to the relationship. She teases me now and
then about my "old professor" aspirations, but that's OK.

I've dated plenty of women who were my age (or ten years older).
Nobody has matched her for commitment, for caring, for being willing
to work through problems, for maturity, for just plain sanity.
(Maybe she'll post later and let y'all know what it's like being
with an older woman. Then again, I'm fairly non-traditional. ;-) )

*She prefers not to have her name plastered all over the net.

**Actually, it was David's little sister's visit that was responsible.
---
-Wendy T., who says Remember: I'm not robbing the cradle,
she's robbing the grave.

Steven Fruitbat Foster

unread,
Mar 22, 1990, 4:39:15 AM3/22/90
to

In article <23...@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, rmad...@euler.Berkeley.EDU (Linc Madison) writes...

>Another complication, though, is that I occasionally get freaked out
>thinking about the fact that he is now about the age I was when I came
>out, and yet he has had far more Experience of the World than I have
>even now. Yea, indeed, he had had more experience by the time he was
>18 than I have had now at 26. At 18, I hadn't even masturbated yet!

This sort of comment is one of my pet hates. The mind-wrenchingly dull
comments such as "just think, when I was your age, you were still sucking
your dummy..." and "Well *I'd* done that by the time I was your age".
Meeeeeeeep! What the zarkin splutfuck does it matter? Yes, I am well aware
of the concept of things being relative, I don't need to be reminded ad
infinitum. Coo, gosh: if somebody had told me six months ago that in six
months time I'd be writing about them telling me this... Quite frankly
I'd have told them where to put it. Without the rubber gloves or the KY
either. It is an insidious version of "You seem to have fallen down a
forty foot well, are you alright?".

Pardon me for ranting, but I just hope to the splutty bootfrat of Zod that
in ten years time I won't be saying "ooh, I was doing that before you'd
even discovered that your dick wasn't just a cat bludgeoning device". Yawn
city Arizona. What's wrong with the much more concise "Open your mouth and
lets test your gag reflex", huh?

>I am thus in the position that someone (sorry -- lost track of who)
>mentioned about the younger one being ready to settle down and the
>older one wanting to go play with all the other kids in the playground.
>As I commented to a mutual friend, "Yes, but *he's* the older and wiser
>one!"

Well I'm the devastatingly intelligent and ravenously sexy one (ahem). And
I'm also the one who rolls himself up in all the bedclothes, grouches in
the morning and launches himself at the older one, realising in mid flight
that the bad back is almost terminal today... Oh well, if you can put up
with all that, I'd say you're either wise or stupid!

David R. Preston

unread,
Mar 21, 1990, 7:19:42 PM3/21/90
to
In article <106...@pyramid.pyramid.com> mi...@pyrps5.pyramid.com (Mike Lipsie) writes:
>In article <52...@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> d...@muslix.llnl.gov (David R. Preston) writes:
>>
>>My cuddle-bear is chronologically about 17 years older than I am.
>
>16 1/2, but who's counting?

Not I. If I were, I would have said 17 years, 4 months, 3 weeks, and
an era.

>And don't let him fool you. He is plenty playful.

Shhh! I wouldn't want to get a reputation :-)

Carl M. Fongheiser

unread,
Mar 21, 1990, 8:41:22 PM3/21/90
to
In article <11...@june.cs.washington.edu> wen...@june.cs.washington.edu (Wendy Thrash) writes:
>*She prefers not to have her name plastered all over the net.

Of course not! I suspect she'd much rather have it tastefully framed. :-)

Carl Fongheiser
c...@unix.cis.pitt.edu

Jay Schuster

unread,
Mar 22, 1990, 9:21:22 AM3/22/90
to
>> So, I'd like to see some discussion about
>> the experiences people have had with age differences in relationships.
>> In other words, is there anything that we should be aware of as we grow
>> together.

[I have always hated talking about age and maturity because it
pushes so many people's buttons. If I offend someone with what I
say, please accept my apologies in advance -- I've been sitting
on my hands for days.]

A couple comments:

ela...@hpmtlx.HP.COM ($Elaine_May) writes:
>IMHO, it is not so much the *age* difference that makes relationships wierd
>sometimes as it is the *maturity* difference.

YES. When I was younger (when it made more of a difference) I used
to ask people how long they'd been out instead of how old they
were.

When I was eighteen (and had been out to myself and friends for a
few years, and out in ``the gay community'' for one) I was dating
a man who was thirty-four, closeted, and who lived with his common-law
wife of six years. In that relationship, I was the more mature
one in a lot of respects (self-esteem, self-confidence, sex).
That's what made that one work.

When my brother was fourteen, he started dating a twenty year-old
woman. That relationship lasted for five years, a lot because,
for them, there was little if any of a maturity difference.

As you get older (and hopefully more mature), I get the impression
that delta(maturity)/delta(age) decreases substantially, so that
once you are in your thirties, if you have had the standard set of
life experiences, there isn't enough of a maturity difference with
anyone else past their thirties to jeopardize a relationship. [Of
course, I am not there yet, so I don't really know personally.]

My mother, when she was forty-five, was dating a guy who was thirty
(younger than some of my boyfriends). They seemed just fine. The
relationship did break up over maturity differences -- but instead
of coming out-type issues, it was divorce-type issues -- she had
gone through her divorce and subsequent post-divorce slut-syndrome
years previous, he was just starting to go through it.

wen...@cs.washington.edu (Wendy Thrash) writes:
>There are times when I want to club her over the head and scream
>"Don't _do_ that! I did that twenty years ago! It just doesn't
>work!"

This is what annoyed me the most about the relationship with the
thirty-four year-old when I was eighteen. In a lot of ways he was
reliving his past through me, and I can hear him saying the exact
same thing. Eventually, I went back to school, fell in love, again,
and broke up with him (Thanksgiving, twelve hour bus ride home,
ten minutes in the car with him (he was noble, telling me a story
about some play(?) about a queen who has a young lover she eventually
tells to go out and live his life without her), a drive to a friend's
house where I spent a six hour night, twelve hours on the bus back
to school, greeting my friends at the end of their Thanksgiving
dinner (eating scraps off of people's plates because I hadn't
eaten), everyone knew why I had left and what it meant to be back
so soon, then dropping acid and having a *great* time).

I guess the key is to give advice when it is wanted or needed, and
to not end up in situations when you could say ``I told you so'',
because that hurts a lot.
--
Jay Schuster <j...@pcc.COM> uunet!uvm-gen!banzai!jay, attmail!banzai!jay
The People's Computer Company `Revolutionary Programming'

Ellen EADES

unread,
Mar 22, 1990, 1:41:41 PM3/22/90
to
>There are times when I want to club her over the head and scream
>"Don't _do_ that! I did that twenty years ago! It just doesn't
>work!" but as I often have similar impulses with strangers it's
>probably not specific to the relationship.

It's strange ... when I was 22 I suddenly thought to myself, "Gosh -- all
of a sudden I feel like I can talk to adults on their level! Maybe there
isn't that more to growing up -- they're treating me like I'm on their
level, and it feels comfortable to me." And I had a great time, thinking
I was done with Maturity 101.

Of late (within the last 12 months), I've been thinking to myself, "How
incredibly naive some of the college-age people I know are! They certainly
have a lot more growing up to do." And I had a great time, thinking I
was done with Maturity 101.

This morning it occurs to me that, quite probably, many of the "adults"
I talked to at 22 were thinking the same thing about me that I was
thinking about the college kids ... :-) but it's okay to do that. And
both perceptions probably have a certain amount of truth to them. The
only problem is that the 38-year-old can understand the arguments of
the 28-year-old, whereas the 28-year-old really has to be a talented
empath to understand the perspective of the 38-year-old. It therefore
behooves the 38-year-old to do lots of talking and sharing with the
28-year-old, and the 28-year-old to do lots of thinking and receiving.
Kind of a reversal.

Maybe it's time to take a refresher course on Maturity 101... Naw. I'd
really rather have an affair. :-)



>-Wendy T., who says Remember: I'm not robbing the cradle,
> she's robbing the grave.

Awwww ... I think you're both treasures, you two.

Ellen Eades (uunet!microsoft!ellene)

Steve Dyer

unread,
Mar 22, 1990, 6:16:41 PM3/22/90
to
In article <ka2JPK_00...@andrew.cmu.edu> dk...@andrew.cmu.edu (David Jason Kyle) writes:
>I 've been told by many that I seem a lot
>older than I am because of my attitude...that doesn't make snese to me.

Yeah, I'd say it doesn't make sense to me either. I don't think your
attitude makes you seem older than you are.

>Is emotional maturity contingent on physical age?

Not always, of course.

Jeff Dauber

unread,
Mar 22, 1990, 4:35:50 PM3/22/90
to
In article <53...@microsoft.UUCP> ell...@microsof.uucp (Ellen Eades) writes:
>In article <11...@june.cs.washington.edu> wen...@june.cs.washington.edu (Wendy Thrash) writes:
>
>This morning it occurs to me that, quite probably, many of the "adults"
>I talked to at 22 were thinking the same thing about me that I was
>thinking about the college kids ... :-) but it's okay to do that. And
>both perceptions probably have a certain amount of truth to them. The
>only problem is that the 38-year-old can understand the arguments of
>the 28-year-old, whereas the 28-year-old really has to be a talented
>empath to understand the perspective of the 38-year-old. It therefore
>behooves the 38-year-old to do lots of talking and sharing with the
>28-year-old, and the 28-year-old to do lots of thinking and receiving.
>Kind of a reversal.

Oh bullshit. Sorry, is that immature? I find most people who I deal
with are immature and clueless. This includes people who are 20, 30, 40
and even 50. Saying that a 28-year-old should listen to the all the
wisdom of a 38-year-old is looking at the problem in too narrow of a
way. I get a lot of shit from the older people I deal with along the
lines of "I am older, therefore you should respect me." Respect needs
to be earned, not just given. I don't accept the advice of anyone as
the "gospel truth." It just doesn't pay.

Yes, I am just 23. You can say, "talk to me in 10 years and then see
what you think." However, attitudes like that turn me off to the person
completely. I learn best from experience, and worst from being told
what I should do. Pompous ageism I do not listen too.


Jeff
Him - "If I were ten years younger, maybe things would be different"
Me - "If you were ten years younger, it wouldn't have to be different"

David Jason Kyle

unread,
Mar 22, 1990, 5:51:02 PM3/22/90
to
Any and all of the lines about people (specifically gay men) getting
better with age is such crap. DO NOT take this as a slight against
anyone of any age. I've just had the experience that it is by far the
person, not the age, that's the issue at hand. There are a kerjillion
men out there who are older then me who act like 13 year olds and have
no grasp of who they are. I 've been told by many that I seem a lot

older than I am because of my attitude...that doesn't make snese to me.
Is emotional maturity contingent on physical age?

Question to J. Schuster: you said in you last letter "that once you are


in your thirties, if you have had the standard set of

life experiences,..." etc, etc. What are they (the standard set of life
experiences)? I'm worried that I may be missing out...gotta collect
those proof of purchase seals...send in for valuable prizes!

And one other...

"Follow your BLISS and doors open where there were no doors before."
Is this Marshall McCluen's? Just curious...

-I've got a little red car, and mechanical hips...

Ron Rizzo

unread,
Mar 22, 1990, 7:43:19 PM3/22/90
to
In article <7...@massenet.nsc.com> dau...@massenet.UUCP (Jeff Dauber) writes:
>
>Oh bullshit. Sorry, is that immature?

No, it's beside the point.

>I find most people who I deal with are immature and clueless.

Who do you hang with? Are they actually "immature and clueless," or is
this perception of yours maybe just a relic of your attitude to others?

>Saying that a 28-year-old should listen to the all the wisdom of a
>38-year-old is looking at the problem in too narrow of a way.

Where did Wendy or Ellen say that? You're wandering again. If
there's any point to be made, it's a different one: it may be that

1. many people tend to have a given set of experiences at a particular
age-level;
2. given 1, if you're older than a given age-level, you're MORE
LIKELY to have had those experiences than people in or younger
than that age-level;
3. given 3, you're MORE LIKELY to know what these experiences are
like.

I don't think the issue is necessarily understanding, nevermind
advice or authority, but the mere fact older people are more likely
to have had more (sex) simply because they've had more time to. And
so they know to some extent, at least for themselves or their time
and place, WHAT IT'S LIKE. Not wiser, more jaded, fulfilled, sated,
or worn. To deny it is silly. It's like railing against the ocean
for making waves.

>I get a lot of shit from the older people I deal with along the
>lines of "I am older, therefore you should respect me."

Does anyone actually say or imply this? Or are you reading all this
in? It sounds like a 50s grade-B movie, or as if you spend all your
time in hustler bars, JayCee meetings or have unwittingly enrolled
in a B&D training course.

>Pompous ageism I do not listen too.

Point of information: "ageism" was coined to refer to discrimination
AGAINST the elderly and as far as I know still does.

Regards,
The Yearling
(aka Ron)

"I yam 15 an' 1/2 years old."

David Jason Kyle

unread,
Mar 23, 1990, 1:35:27 PM3/23/90
to

"I don't think your attitude makes you seem older than you are."
Crossed wires...I think that a person's attitude can greatly affect the
perception of that person's maturity level, age nonwithstanding. By
"seem a lot older" I was taking the general view of
age=maturity/wisdom...what doesn't make sense to me is the fact that
instead of saying that I seem to be more mature than others, I am told I
seem older...get it? I have found that there are a lot of older women
and men who have taught me much more then anyone my own age could've,
but the respect of that came not from them trumpeting the fact they they
were "older" and therefore more "mature"...it was because they had
fantastic attitudes and (forgive me) a love of life itself.

<<JD- "I get a lot of shit from the older people I deal with along the


lines of "I am older, therefore you should <<respect me."

<<RR- "Does anyone actually say or imply this? Or are you reading all
this in?"

actually, I;ve had the same experience, with folks actually using the
words. (and no, I don't hang in hustler bars, JayCee meetings, nor have
I joined a B&D training course...)

-Cassius

Stephen ARRANTS

unread,
Mar 23, 1990, 1:34:58 PM3/23/90
to
In article <ka2JPK_00...@andrew.cmu.edu> dk...@andrew.cmu.edu (David Jason Kyle) writes:
|"Follow your BLISS and doors open where there were no doors before."
|Is this Marshall McCluen's? Just curious...

Goodness no. Joseph Campbell. From a seminar he gave at my univ.
back in the 70s.

--
Steve Arrants (And here it is, the enormous night.)
Best path: ...uunet!microsof!stephena
Blame me, not Microsoft. I work for them, they let me post.

Asmodeus

unread,
Mar 24, 1990, 2:03:52 PM3/24/90
to
In article <52...@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> d...@muslix.llnl.gov (David R. Preston) writes:


>the younger of the two who's settling down

David, David, David. That's not what *I* heard.

--
"Children are never too tender to be whipped. Like tough beefsteaks,
the more you beat them, the more tender they become."
-- Edgar Allan Poe

Mutual Life

unread,
Mar 26, 1990, 2:11:54 PM3/26/90
to
In article <81...@cs.utexas.edu> osb...@cs.utexas.edu (John Howard Osborn) writes:
>Well, we did it. Against all our better judgement, we fell in love.
>He is 27, I'm 20. We are both concerned about the difference in ages.
>Yes, I know that 7 years isn't that long a time, but at our ages it feels
>like it. There is a tremendous difference between a couple aged 27 & 20
>and a couple aged 47 and 40. So, I'd like to see some discussion about

>the experiences people have had with age differences in relationships.
>In other words, is there anything that we should be aware of as we grow
>together.
>
>
Well the most stable couple I know are 24 and 42...they survive by not
trying to be like the other person...nor like the other persons age!!
Part of your attraction my well be this difference in attitudes etc that come
from age disparities...don't dwell on it...don't talk about it, don't worry
about it...just live with it!
It's others big mouths that will keep bringing it up..."oh how can you" or
'doesn't it bother you that..". Tell them the truth..say....NO! I Love it!
p.

Mutual Life

unread,
Mar 26, 1990, 2:18:31 PM3/26/90
to
I'm almost 6 months older than my plaything, and we have alot of problems
due to the differences in our astrological signs...can anyone help!
:^) :^) :^) :^)

p.

jd...@cs.uoregon.edu

unread,
Mar 26, 1990, 5:39:11 PM3/26/90
to
Steve Dyer (dy...@spdcc.COM) writes:

>In article <81...@cs.utexas.edu> osb...@cs.utexas.edu (John Howard Osborn) writes:
>>So, I'd like to see some discussion about
>>the experiences people have had with age differences in relationships.
>>In other words, is there anything that we should be aware of as we grow
>>together.
>

>There is a 10 year age difference between my lover and me. I'm 34, he's 44.
>While I would say that it hasn't been that big a deal, all in all, it IS true
>that a space of 10 years is going to emphasize some different priorities.

You ain't kidding.

Not to put a damper on all of this "we've got an age difference, and we're
doing just fine" stuff, but it isn't all sweets and roses (I wanted to say
Guns 'n' Roses there, but I hate Guns 'n' Roses B-). I'm 23, and Gregg is
35. The main problem in our relationship (if you can call it that -- I
won't be calling it that if I don't hear from him by Tuesday. We haven't
seen or spoken to each other for more than 2 minutes in a month and a half)
is the independence factor. Gregg had been single for 6 years before we
met (and I wasn't single yet -- not that that stopped me B-). He has
thus learned to be *too* independent. Add to this his tendency to be
very paranoid about people "finding out" that he is gay, and a pair of
college schedules that didn't mesh, and you end up with a very frustrated
me.

***********************

Jim Drew "Life's a death, then you BITCH!"
jd...@cs.uoregon.edu - unknown source
(SCA: Colyn du Corynthe)

Dan R. Greening

unread,
Mar 26, 1990, 6:49:37 PM3/26/90
to
Since the age-difference business has evolved to other issues, such
as independence and out vs. not-out, I changed the topic.

jd...@CS.UOREGON.EDU writes:

>The main problem in our relationship (if you can call it that -- I
>won't be calling it that if I don't hear from him by Tuesday. We haven't
>seen or spoken to each other for more than 2 minutes in a month and a half)
>is the independence factor. Gregg had been single for 6 years before we
>met (and I wasn't single yet -- not that that stopped me B-). He has
>thus learned to be *too* independent. Add to this his tendency to be
>very paranoid about people "finding out" that he is gay, and a pair of
>college schedules that didn't mesh, and you end up with a very frustrated
>me.

It doesn't sound like you have enough in common to build a relationship.

I am of the overly-independent mindset, and I have apparently sustained
a couple of multi-year relationships. I hate having cloying partners,
and, though I didn't recognize why at the time, I got rid of them
post-haste by my avoidance behavior. It seems likely that this fellow is
knowingly or unknowingly playing the same game to get rid of you.

My best partners have been those who like hanging around lots of people,
enjoy challenging the system, allow me a substantial amount of
freedom, impose few demands (I prefer invitations, or seduction), and
demonstrate love by action rather than words. They don't seem easy to
find, but they exist.

The problem of out vs. not-out seems intractable to me. How can anyone
who is closeted have an acceptable relationship with someone who is not?
Your assertive behavior threatens to inadvertantly betray him.

Maybe you don't deserve him. Maybe you should be on the lookout for a
better relationship, with someone who shares your need for closeness.

My advice? Dump the guy. I can't imagine how a conversation could
patch this up, if he hasn't talked to you in 1.5 months.

Dan Greening | NY 914-784-7861 | 12 Foster Court
dgr...@cs.ucla.edu | CA 213-825-2266 | Croton-on-Hudson, NY 10520

Ellen EADES

unread,
Mar 28, 1990, 1:24:37 PM3/28/90
to

>>The main problem in our relationship is the independence factor.

>>Add to this his tendency to be very paranoid about people "finding out"
>>that he is gay, and a pair of college schedules that didn't mesh,

>It doesn't sound like you have enough in common to build a relationship.

TIME OUT, DAN!

I think this is a bit hasty. Besides, I had it abruptly brought to my
attention yesterday that even with my close friends, I don't have the
perspective to make a comment about the status of a relationship, not
having firsthand knowledge of all the problems that might have existed.
And whatever I might think about "should Cyn break up with Annie or is
she just overreacting to this one incident?", from Cyn's perspective, she
isn't dealing with one incident, she's dealing with one incident which
is a metaphor for many incidents and a buildup of problems over time. I
haven't got the perspective.

I'll grant you that Jim's presenting some very strong arguments against
continuing his relationship with Gregg. However, we can't, as motssers,
know that there aren't equally good arguments for the relationship which
he hasn't brought up (among which must be at least a good reason why
he's persisted in waiting for Gregg for quite a while now). And while
I'm sure you'd agree that Jim gets to make the ultimate decision, the
flat-out "I think you should dump him" is a bit rough. If I'd said, "I
think you're overreacting. You should work things out with Annie, she's
worth it!" to Cyn last night, I'd have been WAY out of line.

Good luck, Jim -- let us know how it goes.

Ellen Eades (uunet!microsoft!ellene)

Tom Gandet

unread,
Mar 28, 1990, 3:22:09 PM3/28/90
to
In article <53...@microsoft.UUCP> ell...@microsof.uucp (Ellen Eades) writes:
>In article <33...@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> dgr...@squid.cs.ucla.edu () writes:
>>jd...@CS.UOREGON.EDU writes:
>
>>>The main problem in our relationship is the independence factor.
>>>Add to this his tendency to be very paranoid about people "finding out"
>>>that he is gay, and a pair of college schedules that didn't mesh,
>
>>It doesn't sound like you have enough in common to build a relationship.
>
>TIME OUT, DAN!
>
>I think this is a bit hasty. Besides, I had it abruptly brought to my
>attention yesterday that even with my close friends, I don't have the
>perspective to make a comment about the status of a relationship, not
>having firsthand knowledge of all the problems that might have existed.

Yes, it struck me as overly hasty, too. Two of my dearest
friends have been together for twelve years now. One is 42, the other 40.
They've gone through most of the problems Jim talks about, including a
one year career-enforced separation while one was in Houston and one in
LA. They survived and seem now to be as happy together as they were
12 years ago, which is VERY happy! Keeps faith in love alive, it do...

===============================================================================
== Tom Gandet | \ | Telos/Jet Propulsion Lab - NASA ==
== gan...@mars.Jpl.Nasa.Gov | \ | Work: (818) 351-2341 x 234 ==
== "Walls impede my progress."| / \ | Standard disclaimer ==
== - rec.humour.funny (1635) | / \ | applies.... ==
===============================================================================
===============================================================================
== Tom Gandet | \ | Telos/Jet Propulsion Lab - NASA ==
== gan...@mars.Jpl.Nasa.Gov | \ | Work: (818) 351-2341 x 234 ==
== "Walls impede my progress."| / \ | Standard disclaimer ==

Dan R. Greening

unread,
Mar 29, 1990, 2:42:05 PM3/29/90
to
In previous articles, Tom Gandet and Ellen Eades warned me against
advising Jim Drew to cut his relationship with an independent-type.

They are, of course, right. I shouldn't go out meddling in other
people's relationships. Perhaps my comments can shed some
light on his relationship or lack thereof, and hopefully it will
benefit his perspective. But whether my experiences have any bearing
on his situation is solely for him to judge.

Linc Madison

unread,
Mar 29, 1990, 5:54:29 PM3/29/90
to
In article <94...@shlump.nac.dec.com>

fos...@jumbly.dec.com (Steven Fruitbat Foster) writes:
>
>In article <23...@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>,
>rmad...@euler.Berkeley.EDU (Linc Madison) writes...
>
>This sort of comment is one of my pet hates....


Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments, Stephen. Please be
assured that I will refrain from ever posting anything that could
conceivably make you gag. Please let me know if indeed my very
existence offend thee, and I shall surely end it.

-- Linc Madison = rmad...@euler.berkeley.edu

"Folk wisdom: Never judge a man until you have danced in his high heels."
[Alan Miller, "At the Club"]

P.S. Euler will be down from this evening until Monday, so wait until
next week (April 2) before replying to this message by e-mail.

David Bonyun

unread,
Mar 29, 1990, 9:33:22 PM3/29/90
to
My SO and I have been together for 13 years and differ in age by just
about that much. We are the most stable relationship we know! At a party
for his mother the other night, he remarked to me that we were the couple
among the several there that had been together the longest.
I am the older and he complains sometimes that he will have a life to lead
when I am gone, and then be too old to find a replacement. That, it seems
to me, is the real problem with age differences; I like to believe that it
is a problem - that people to stay together long enough to outlive one
another.
Comments from other long-lasting age-difference couples would be approciated.
David

Amelia T. Smith

unread,
Mar 30, 1990, 9:26:40 AM3/30/90
to
In article <57...@paperboy.OSF.ORG>, coren@speed (Robert Coren) writes:
>
> Well, my lover and I have been together for about 16 years, and our
> ages are about 7 1/2 years apart. At this point, the difference
> doesn't seem to be an issue (actually, it never seemed to be much of
> issue, possibly because we were both past 25, and therefore both in
> what's generally considered "adult" range, when we met). When my hair
> started to get noticeably gray (I'm a lot grayer than he is, although
> he is the elder) he started to joke about turning me in for a younger
> model. Hasn't happened yet (as far as I know :-)).

Here's a mildly funny anecdote. (If I've told it here before, go to
the next message. B-) )

[Background: Mine Schweethardt is about 7 years older than me, I'm larger
(MUCH larger, like about twice as large), and have much more gray hair.
We will have been together 10 years in 12 days. Neither of has plans for
trading the other in for a younger model, as far as *I* know.]

I went away for my annual week-with-the-family vacation [read: torture].
When I came back to Philadelphia, Schweetie met me at the train station.
We had our hugs 'n' stuff, walked out to her car, I placed my bags in
the trunk, climbed into the passenger seat, reached over and unlocked
the driver's side door, fastened my seatbelt, and rolled down my window
(It was, after all, mid-August, and she has no air conditioning in
her car.) Anyway, as all this stuff was happening around and in the car,
a man was standing there next to a car parked beside (on my side of)
the car, smiling at us. As we were pulling out of the parking spot, this
man said to me, "That's a lovely daughter you have there."

I laughed, loudly, and for quite some time. Schweethardt also laughed, and
screamed out her window, "But I'm seven years older than she is!" We then
peeled, laughing loudly, out of the parking lot. I guess I *do* look
matriarchal, huh?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Opinions: MINE! MINE! MINE! University of Pennsylvania
Medical School Computer Facility
Internet: sm...@mscf.med.upenn.edu C511 Richards Bldg.
Voice: (215) 898-7158 (work) Philadelphia, PA 19104-6062 U.S.A.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Robert Coren

unread,
Mar 30, 1990, 10:49:33 AM3/30/90
to
From article <7...@ncs.dnd.ca>, by dbo...@ncs.dnd.ca (David Bonyun):

> My SO and I have been together for 13 years and differ in age by just
> about that much. We are the most stable relationship we know! ...

> Comments from other long-lasting age-difference couples would be approciated.

Well, my lover and I have been together for about 16 years, and our


ages are about 7 1/2 years apart. At this point, the difference
doesn't seem to be an issue (actually, it never seemed to be much of
issue, possibly because we were both past 25, and therefore both in
what's generally considered "adult" range, when we met). When my hair
started to get noticeably gray (I'm a lot grayer than he is, although
he is the elder) he started to joke about turning me in for a younger
model. Hasn't happened yet (as far as I know :-)).

Robert

Frank MALONEY

unread,
Apr 2, 1990, 5:14:19 PM4/2/90
to
In article <7...@ncs.dnd.ca> dbo...@ncs.dnd.ca (David Bonyun) writes:
>My SO and I have been together for 13 years and differ in age by just
>about that much. We are the most stable relationship we know! At a party
>for his mother the other night, he remarked to me that we were the couple
>among the several there that had been together the longest.
>I am the older and he complains sometimes that he will have a life to lead
>when I am gone, and then be too old to find a replacement. That, it seems
>to me, is the real problem with age differences; I like to believe that it
>is a problem - that people to stay together long enough to outlive one
>another.

Excuse me, but I just a little pissed by this. Who the fuck
knows when anyone is going to die? Your partner is being
more than a little arrogant, IMHO, when he assumes you'll
kick the bucket before him -- may you live a hundred
years together. And what does he mean by replacing you? You,
my dear, are irreplaceable. I sure as hell am and the minute
my partner of 14 years thinks otherwise, he'll find out just
how fucking unique I really am. And furthermore, what makes
him think old people don't love, fuck, and find each other?
Such nonsense and you, you let him get away with this
bullshit. For shame!

--
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
Disclaimer: Microsoft doesn't even know I work here.
"Something's wrong with my throat. It must be laryngitis"
- Daffy Duck

Steven Fruitbat Foster

unread,
Apr 2, 1990, 10:15:27 AM4/2/90
to

In article <23...@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, rmad...@euler.Berkeley.EDU (Linc Madison) writes...

>Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments, Stephen. Please be


>assured that I will refrain from ever posting anything that could
>conceivably make you gag. Please let me know if indeed my very
>existence offend thee, and I shall surely end it.

I don't think that my control over the gag reflex is anything I can test over
the net (unless anybody has a kinky AI program and a naughty cybernetic device
I could borrow).

Meep, the power I can command over people. Just one word and I have them
falling at my feet. I suppose you'd better all address me as Queen Fruitbat
(or is that 'Outrageous Queen'?) :-)

I'll let you live for the moment, darlingjk. I'm not *terribly* petulant.

His Royal Pervertedness,

Queen Fruitbat.

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Steve Fruitbat Foster | fos...@jumbly.dec.com [+...@uk.ac.nsfnet-relay] |

| Digital Equipment Corp. +--------------------------------------------------|
| Reading, UK. | These opinions are not necessarily those of DEC, |
| **STUFF THE POLL TAX** | my assorted cuddly toys or anybody whatsoever. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Homosexuality: Eight out of ten owners (who expressed a preference) said their
bats *preferred* it.

Jack Hamilton

unread,
Apr 2, 1990, 1:33:25 PM4/2/90
to
I recently (Friday) had a date with a grad student at UCSF who, it turned
out, is 12 years younger than I am. I had guessed that he was older, and
he told me later "I didn't tell you that I'm only 22 because I was afraid
you'd get freaked out."

That was a wise precaution on his part. I'm mildly bothered by it, but I
don't think it would be a barrier if other things worked out. Somehow, I
didn't feel like we were in different generations. He said "I had three
sisters, and one of them's almost your age, so I'm used to older people".
Great. I'm looking forward to collecting social security, which
I guess will be any day now.

I had dated someone else closer to my age earlier this year, and he really
did make me feel like I was robbing the grave. I guess it's a matter of
behavior rather than of chronology.
--
Jack Hamilton
j...@netcom.com
netcom!j...@apple.com

Owen Rowley

unread,
Apr 3, 1990, 3:37:38 PM4/3/90
to

In article <21...@ursa-major.SPDCC.COM>, dy...@spdcc.COM (Steve Dyer) writes:
> There is a 10 year age difference between my lover and me. I'm 34, he's 44.
>While I would say that it hasn't been that big a deal, all in all, it IS true
> that a space of 10 years is going to emphasize some different priorities.
>For example, I'm still a bit of a blithe spirit in financial matters, whereas
>he's beginning to start thinking seriously about security,
>financial stability, planning for retirement, etc.

Theres 16 years difference for my SO and I.
But in our case he's the one who's serious about security, and future
financial stability.
I remain the squandering fool I've always been :-)

>Just the other day, he remarked that it helped
>for him to remember that when he was my age,
>he didn't worry at all about these things either, which I thought was a
>rather interesting and illuminating comment.

Yeah when I was in my thirtys I was thinking about how I'ld like
to find someone who would love me, and who fit my fantasy lover profile,
and who would someday support me in the style to which I'ld like to be
acustomed :-)
well two out of three ain't bad.. he tells me not to forget my IRA
and 401K contributions :-)

LUX.. owen
_____________________________________________________________________________
| ^ | | Owen Rowley | | | |
| / \ | | {uunet,well,sun}!acad!owen | | \ / |
| / \ | | | | _=_ * _=_ |
| / <@> \ | | GWM, 6', 200, red/blue, | | / \ |
| / \ | | B3, p,f,t,m,w+,d+,s++, | | | |
| ___________ | | | | Every Man and |
| NIL | | "No matter where you go, | | Every Woman |
| CARBORUNDUM | | There you are!" | | Is A Star |
| ILLEGITIMO | | | | Liber AL |
|_______________|_|____________________________________|_|____________________|

0 new messages