Disabling the HIV virus
David Gartner
ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis
manly department of redundant redundancies panda
T
inv...@invalid.invalid says...
> http://www.kvue.com/news/state/stories/072908kvuehivbreakthrough-cb.14e217f8.html
>
It'll be very interesting to see if the get funding to go to human
trials. And more interesting if the trials prove effective.
HIV and Hepatitis-C (And to a small part B) are the only ones that kill
with some great regularity and aren't curable. You survive HSV2, and can
cure syphillis, chlamydia, and the other sexually transmitted dieseases
with relatively common antibiotics.
It's end one of the plagues of the 20th and 21st centuries. The only
thing that concerns me is that the drug companies make a hell of a lot
of money selling the retroviral drugs and that gives me a bad feeling
about the chances for success of the above mentioned trials.
Rod Williams
> isn't "HIV virus" sorta like "PIN number" or "one-year anniversary"?
>
> manly department of redundant redundancies panda
...and let's not forget The La Brea Tar Pits.
Blunt and Opaque
>isn't "HIV virus" sorta like "PIN number" or "one-year anniversary"?
Criticisms of the formation "PIN number" are really starting to bug
me. Come on! How are you to distinguish between "pin" (and "pen")
and "PIN number" in speech? What is so gosh-darned awful about
disambiguation? (And don't even try to tell me that "PI number" would
be better. We already have a pi number.)
--
Piglet
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
> ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis <chris....@utoronto.ca>, in
article
<ed338132-826f-4dc5...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
dixit:
> >isn't "HIV virus" sorta like "PIN number" or "one-year anniversary"?
>
> Criticisms of the formation "PIN number" are really starting to bug
> me. Come on! How are you to distinguish between "pin" (and "pen")
> and "PIN number" in speech?
By speaking with my accent, of course!
What does Chris think of PIN code? ;)
--
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about.
Otherwise they should just shut up about it." -Richard Dawkins
ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis
> >isn't "HIV virus" sorta like "PIN number" or "one-year anniversary"?
> Criticisms of the formation "PIN number" are really starting to bug
> me. Come on! How are you to distinguish between "pin" (and "pen")
> and "PIN number" in speech?
why do you need the "number" part of the phrase? how many times are
you going to be using "PIN" (secret number-like signature) and
"pin" (small sharp metal stick) in contexts where the two are likely
to be confused? It's like people objecting to "Chair" as the title
for the chief person in a department because there are several pieces
of furniture by the same name in their office.
Shirley the phrases "key in your PIN and press OK" or "pin the label
to the fabric" are clear enough, even when spoken (where you can't see
the capital letters). I don't think too many people are going around
stabbing needles (or pins, or other thin sharp objects) into automatic
teller machines[*].
"number" in the "PIN number" context is redundant, just like "virus"
in "HIV virus".
[*]and, for that matter, like "machine" in the phrase "ATM machine"
to quote someone else from this neck of the woods, "context, context,
context"; it frequently clarifies the usage.
ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis
David Gartner
Yeah, and like the ATM machine.
d
Cornelia Wyngaarden
"David Gartner" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Well, I find the M in ATM already redundant. What else is an Automatic
Teller going to be, a clairvoyant bank employee doling out twenties in a
daze?
corry
Ellen Evans
ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis <chris....@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>> >[panda]
>> >isn't "HIV virus" sorta like "PIN number" or "one-year anniversary"?
>> [piglet]
>> Criticisms of the formation "PIN number" are really starting to bug
>> me. Come on! How are you to distinguish between "pin" (and "pen")
>> and "PIN number" in speech?
>
>why do you need the "number" part of the phrase?
Because the point of talking is to use the language in the way that the
people you are talking *to* use it so that they will understand you?
That's what has come into the language. Maybe in some ideal future it
will be the way you think is logical, but that's not the way it is used
now.
--
--
Ellen Evans If my life wasn't funny, it would
je...@panix.com just be true, and that's unacceptable.
Carrie Fisher
ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis
> >why do you need the "number" part of the phrase?
> Because the point of talking is to use the language in the way that the
> people you are talking *to* use it so that they will understand you?
when I use a phrase like "I had to go to the bank and change my PIN",
people seem to understand what I'm saying. They might not where you
live, but I can only speak for my own experience.
> That's what has come into the language. Maybe in some ideal future it
> will be the way you think is logical, but that's not the way it is used
> now.
Oh I understand that "PIN number" is a locution used by people. but,
as I said, using the phrase without "number" seems to work too.
sorta like "it's our 5 month anniversary!" grates and makes no
grammatical sense. I can interpret what it means, but I have no
intention of using it myself.
ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis
Robert S. Coren
And nobody will atttempt to force you to do so. But at my advanced age
I'm beginning to learn that there's not much point in fretting about
such things, and even less point in whingeing about them.
--
---Robert Coren (co...@panix.com)------------------------------------
"After a recent trip to New York one French journalist remarked that
leafing through a copy of _Forbes_ or _Fortune_ is like reading the
operating manual of a strangely sanctimonious pirate ship." --Adam Gopnik
Blunt and Opaque
>Shirley the phrases "key in your PIN and press OK" or "pin the label
>to the fabric" are clear enough, even when spoken (where you can't see
>the capital letters). I don't think too many people are going around
>stabbing needles (or pins, or other thin sharp objects) into automatic
>teller machines[*].
"Enter your PIN." In my dialect, that sounds exactly like "enter your
pen". You've never done this before. Someone is talking you through
it over the phone. You're standing there at an ATM machine (nyah!),
holding the pen you've just used to fill out your deposit slip. What
do you do?
>to quote someone else from this neck of the woods, "context, context,
>context"; it frequently clarifies the usage.
So do more words. Redundancy is not a bad thing in communication;
it's one of the ways we confirm that we are receiving correctly, and
the extra words give our brains a chance to process the ones we have
already heard.
People aren't computers; fewest words is a silly goal. (Says Brevity
Girl, o, the irony it burns.)
I speak as someone who just confused two people (at least two; who
knows how many didn't comment?) with the phrase "make well".
--
Piglet, not to mention "1/4 vanilla bean scrapings"
Ann Burlingham
> Criticisms of the formation "PIN number" are really starting to bug
> me. Come on! How are you to distinguish between "pin" (and "pen")
> and "PIN number" in speech?
Troll! Troll! Troll!
--
What use was it having all that money if you could never sit still
or just watch your cattle eating grass?
- Alexander McCall Smith, _The No.1 Ladies' Detective Agency_
NowYouKnowBetter
> isn't "HIV virus" sorta like "PIN number" or "one-year anniversary"?
>
> manly department of redundant redundancies panda
The redundancy isn't there for the phrase "one-year anniversary" because
an anniversary is a commemoration of one or more years' elapsing since a
significant event occurred in one's life or surroundings.
I do concur that there is redundancy in the terms HIV virus and PIN number.
Jack Hamilton
torontonensis <chris....@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>> >[panda]
>> >isn't "HIV virus" sorta like "PIN number" or "one-year anniversary"?
>> [piglet]
>> Criticisms of the formation "PIN number" are really starting to bug
>> me. Come on! How are you to distinguish between "pin" (and "pen")
>> and "PIN number" in speech?
>
>why do you need the "number" part of the phrase? how many times are
>you going to be using "PIN" (secret number-like signature) and
>"pin" (small sharp metal stick) in contexts where the two are likely
>to be confused? It's like people objecting to "Chair" as the title
>for the chief person in a department because there are several pieces
>of furniture by the same name in their office.
But if someone says "I sat on the department chair", how am I to know
what they meant?
Jack Hamilton
wrote:
>In article <1kf5i0q424ib3$.1513g3jjkttdj$.d...@40tude.net>,
>inv...@invalid.invalid says...
>> http://www.kvue.com/news/state/stories/072908kvuehivbreakthrough-cb.14e217f8.html
>>
>
>It'll be very interesting to see if the get funding to go to human
>trials. And more interesting if the trials prove effective.
>
>HIV and Hepatitis-C (And to a small part B) are the only ones that kill
>with some great regularity and aren't curable. You survive HSV2, and can
>cure syphillis, chlamydia, and the other sexually transmitted dieseases
>with relatively common antibiotics.
Less and less so, as they develop resistance to antibiotics.
>It's end one of the plagues of the 20th and 21st centuries. The only
>thing that concerns me is that the drug companies make a hell of a lot
>of money selling the retroviral drugs and that gives me a bad feeling
>about the chances for success of the above mentioned trials.
Don't worry, new diseases will come along, or old ones will come back.
Most of the west coast of Mexico has endemic dengue fever. Parts of
California have endemic plague. Malaria is making a comeback; so is
drug-resistant tuberculosis. There's still no cure for the cold, or
some stains of influenza.
ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis
> > isn't "HIV virus" sorta like "PIN number" or "one-year anniversary"?
> > manly department of redundant redundancies panda
> The redundancy isn't there for the phrase "one-year anniversary" because
> an anniversary is a commemoration of one or more years' elapsing since a
> significant event occurred in one's life or surroundings.
if it has been 365 days or so since an event, it's "the first
anniversary", or "one year since". "year" and the "ann___" part of
"anniversary" mean the same thing. Putting "year" and "anniversary"
in the same phrase creates redundancy among the words.
if people want to use these locutions, they will of course do so and
don't need any permission or approval from moi. but there is
unnecessary verbiage, redundant redundancy, excessive text,
repetitious repetition (or is that redundant repetition and
repetitious redundancy? I can never keep those two distinct)
manly panda
who has never used his pen to do anything to an automatic teller
machine, so isn't quite sure what piglet's problem is with the phrase
"enter your PIN". but then, my ATMs don't talk to me, they show text.
Mike McKinley
news:C4BDFD61.1BC8D%cor...@telus.net...
In Mexico, I always tell people that, instead of the cajero automatico
(ATM), I want to go to the callejera automatica (automatic street-walker).
Mike McKinley
news:g7am0l$in$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> "Enter your PIN." In my dialect, that sounds exactly like "enter your
> pen".
Well, my dear, if you had been put in the meat grinder that is drama
school in a southern state, you woulda learned this distinction and quick.
I always said that UT couldn't teach you to act, but boy, were they adept at
ironing out a Texas accent.
Pin-Pen was liken to get. Inny became any. Cain't became can't. My brother
still says "warsh" for wash. We are victims of the very dipthongs we speak.
Then I got to New York as a dancer and no longer had to speak onstage,
they all wanted to hear the accent. Especially in class or rehearal, they'd
bust out laughing if I asked in a thick Texas accent, "How do you do a coupé
jeté en tournant (koo-pay, jet-tay on tornan)?"
Tim McDaniel
Do you find those in Puto Vallarta?
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
the zak
> On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:46:36 -0400, T <nospam.k...@cox.nospam.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <1kf5i0q424ib3$.1513g3jjkttdj$....@40tude.net>,
> >inva...@invalid.invalid says...
> >>http://www.kvue.com/news/state/stories/072908kvuehivbreakthrough-cb.1...
>
> >It'll be very interesting to see if the get funding to go to human
> >trials. And more interesting if the trials prove effective.
>
> >HIV and Hepatitis-C (And to a small part B) are the only ones that kill
> >with some great regularity and aren't curable. You survive HSV2, and can
> >cure syphillis, chlamydia, and the other sexually transmitted dieseases
> >with relatively common antibiotics.
>
> Less and less so, as they develop resistance to antibiotics.
>
> >It's end one of the plagues of the 20th and 21st centuries. The only
> >thing that concerns me is that the drug companies make a hell of a lot
> >of money selling the retroviral drugs and that gives me a bad feeling
> >about the chances for success of the above mentioned trials.
>
> Don't worry, new diseases will come along, or old ones will come back.
> Most of the west coast of Mexico has endemic dengue fever. Parts of
> California have endemic plague. Malaria is making a comeback; so is
> drug-resistant tuberculosis. There's still no cure for the cold, or
> some stains of influenza.
Imagine a disease organism of the future both parasitic
and cannibalistic, if you don't have sex, you die.
So A calls up B, "You've got to come over."
B says, "I can't, I'm goin' over to C's."
A cries, "You've got to come over now, it's beginning to gnaw at me!"
ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis
> In Mexico, I always tell people that, instead of the cajero automatico
> (ATM), I want to go to the callejera automatica (automatic street-walker).
now THAT will make my next trip to what the British call a "hole in
the wall" MUCH more entertaining.
(when I was in Canterbury last week, a couple of (british columbian)
gays in our number expressed scepticism when I said I needed to visit
a hole in the wall. they (imagine!) made some rude connection and
risque allusions. I was forced - FORCED - to photograph the machine
in question and bring back the image in my camera to Steve, who then
acknowledged that I had not been making that phrase up, you know.
[it's actually a trademark of Barclays, who label their machines as
such; but like Asprin, the name has become generic])
so - hole in the wall - automatic street-walker. how to choose, how
to choose....
manly panda
Mike McKinley
news:g7cfhk$ddb$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> Do you find those in Puto Vallarta?
ATM's are all over. In P.V., I was sitting having coffee with a nice
gay guy (we were just talking or at least *I* was) who worked at the gay
gringo's coffee bar next door. Let's face, gurl, the area is gay as
Liberace's diamond encrusted butt plug. It was summer and NO ONE was in
town. I was followed around that morning by a young guy who gave off
working boy vibes and who stood across the street, staring at me. (As I
said NO ONE was in town and he was after the only gringo around. A working
boy's gotta work, after all) Finally, he came over and bummed a cigarette
off of the guy I was chatting with and I said, "I'm sorry, I'm puto magnet."
Jed Davis
>> [our ballerina brings cross-cultural experiences]
>> In Mexico, I always tell people that, instead of the cajero automatico
>> (ATM), I want to go to the callejera automatica (automatic street-walker).
>
> now THAT will make my next trip to what the British call a "hole in
> the wall" MUCH more entertaining.
>
> (when I was in Canterbury last week, a couple of (british columbian)
> gays in our number expressed scepticism when I said I needed to visit
> a hole in the wall.
Oh. Over here that means a cheap/seedy restaurant, so I was even more
confused.
--
"When I was one of the devil's lesbians, my headmistress Countess Clitoria
would reward me with hot tubs and vacations to Spain and Greece. I'm sorry
you're still at the toaster level. You must do your vampirizing only in scummy
out-of-the-way places." -- Mother Bernadette Strange <exle...@wowmail.com>
Ned Deily
>ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis <chris....@utoronto.ca> writes:
>> (when I was in Canterbury last week, a couple of (british columbian)
>> gays in our number expressed scepticism when I said I needed to visit
>> a hole in the wall.
>
>Oh. Over here that means a cheap/seedy restaurant, so I was even more
>confused.
Um, not always. You'll have to visit ours next time, assuming 2.0
outlives Web 2.0.
--
Ned Deily,
n...@visi.com -- []
Jed Davis
Fancy restaurants using the name self-consciously Do Not Count, if
that's what you mean.
--
(let ((C call-with-current-continuation)) (apply (lambda (x y) (x y)) (map
((lambda (r) ((C C) (lambda (s) (r (lambda l (apply (s s) l)))))) (lambda
(f) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) C (lambda (k) (display (car l)) ((f (cdr l))
(C k))))))) '((#\J #\d #\D #\v #\s) (#\e #\space #\a #\i #\newline)))))
Ellen Evans
Jed Davis <jd...@panix.com> wrote:
>Ned Deily <n...@visi.com> writes:
>
>> JedD:
>>> ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis <chris....@utoronto.ca> writes:
>>>> (when I was in Canterbury last week, a couple of (british columbian)
>>>> gays in our number expressed scepticism when I said I needed to visit
>>>> a hole in the wall.
>>>
>>> Oh. Over here that means a cheap/seedy restaurant, so I was even more
>>> confused.
>>
>> Um, not always. You'll have to visit ours next time, assuming 2.0
>> outlives Web 2.0.
>
>Fancy restaurants using the name self-consciously Do Not Count, if
>that's what you mean.
Bar. The opposite of fancy.
Ellen Evans
ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis <chris....@utoronto.ca> wrote:
[]
>if it has been 365 days or so since an event, it's "the first
>anniversary", or "one year since". "year" and the "ann___" part of
>"anniversary" mean the same thing.
In different languages.
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
> In article <63899640-da2b-46fc...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
> ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis <chris....@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
> []
>
>> if it has been 365 days or so since an event, it's "the first
>> anniversary", or "one year since". "year" and the "ann___" part of
>> "anniversary" mean the same thing.
>
> In different languages.
Not important to some of our more cosmopolitan and polyglottal
colleagues. I have seen complaints here that Sahara Desert and Gobi
Desert are pleonasms (sahra, pl. sahara, being desert in Arabic; gobi
being desert in Mongolian). Likewise, Avon is a cognate of a Welsh word
for river, afon (pronounced avon). Interesting all, but I doubt I will
change my usage.
--
Frank in Seattle
____
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"Millennium hand and shrimp."
NowYouKnowBetter
If you wish to be pedantic about it, the word "anniversary" comes from
the Latin roots "annus" (year) and "vertere," (to turn). An anniversary,
therefore, is a celebration of the turning of the year (since x occurred)!
NUKB
NowYouKnowBetter
He'd have better luck in Guanajoto! ;>)
NUKB
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
And if memory serves, annulus means a ring and by extension a year. See
"annular" and "annulus", the latter being the diminutive of "anus", btw.
Jed Davis
> Jed Davis <jd...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Ned Deily <n...@visi.com> writes:
>>> JedD:
>>>> ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis <chris....@utoronto.ca> writes:
>>>>> (when I was in Canterbury last week, a couple of (british columbian)
>>>>> gays in our number expressed scepticism when I said I needed to visit
>>>>> a hole in the wall.
>>>>
>>>> Oh. Over here that means a cheap/seedy restaurant, so I was even more
>>>> confused.
>>>
>>> Um, not always. You'll have to visit ours next time, assuming 2.0
>>> outlives Web 2.0.
>>
>> Fancy restaurants using the name self-consciously Do Not Count, if
>> that's what you mean.
>
> Bar. The opposite of fancy.
Oh. Well, given that I'm vastly more likely to be seen in, say, a
mildly dodgy Chinese restaurant than, say, Paradise[*], I may perhaps
be forgiven my excessive specificity.
[*] Which may or may not be as seedy on the inside as it looks on the
outside; I Wouldn't Know.
Rod Williams
> If you wish to be pedantic about it...
Hello? Isn't that in the soc.motss charter?!
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
> In article <63899640-da2b-46fc...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
> ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis <chris....@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
> []
>
> >if it has been 365 days or so since an event, it's "the first
> >anniversary", or "one year since". "year" and the "ann___" part of
> >"anniversary" mean the same thing.
>
> In different languages.
Indeed, but make sure you get the double n right when asking Italians
their age...
--
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about.
Otherwise they should just shut up about it." -Richard Dawkins
Mike McKinley
news:1ilaohs.1erv6fx1tjv3zvN%d4g...@yahoo.co.uk...
> Indeed, but make sure you get the double n right when asking Italians
> their age...
Darling, that's one of my pet peeves with MS Word's Spanish dictionary.
It happily accepts ano (anus) over año (year), and one doesn't want to be
caught writing "hace muchos anos" (many anuses ago) as opposed to "hace
muchos años" (many years ago).
Mike McKinley
news:W9rmk.18342$89....@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> He'd have better luck in Guanajoto! ;>)
Very funny. I know you're trying.
Como una perra que el mar encierra,
así te guarda mí corazón.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
And asking someone how many arses they have may get an odd look. :)
Arnold Zwicky
frank maloney <fr...@blarg.net> wrote:
>Ellen Evans wrote:
>> In article
>> <63899640-da2b-46fc...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
>> ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis <chris....@utoronto.ca>
>> wrote:
>>> if it has been 365 days or so since an event, it's "the first
>>> anniversary", or "one year since". "year" and the "ann___"
>>> part of "anniversary" mean the same thing.
>> In different languages.
well, strictly speaking, "ann-" is NOT a meaningful part of "anniversary" *in
modern english*. the chunk "ann-" has its historical origin in a latin root
meaning 'year', true, but that isn't actually relevant for the
interpretation of "anniversary" in modern english.
this sort of etymological thinking leads to all sorts of craziness: since
the "pass-" part of "passion" goes back to a latin root meaning 'suffer
pain', the word "passion" should not be used in any other sense; since
the "agri-" part of "agriculture" goes back to a latin root meaning
'field', the word "agriculture" should be limited to referring to cultivating
fields, and not extended (as it was, long ago, according to the OED)
to farming in general, including raising livestock; and so on.
we don't even have to look to other languages: since the "on-" part
of "only" is in fact historically the number word "one" ("only" is,
historically, one-ly), "only" should be used only with singular
nouns; "the only problems were with small details" is therefore
contradictory.
i could go on like this for hours.
>Not important to some of our more cosmopolitan and polyglottal
>colleagues. I have seen complaints here that Sahara Desert and Gobi
>Desert are pleonasms (sahra, pl. sahara, being desert in Arabic; gobi
>being desert in Mongolian). Likewise, Avon is a cognate of a Welsh
>word for river, afon (pronounced avon). Interesting all, but I doubt
>I will change my usage.
interesting, but not relevant to modern english usage.
etymology is fascinating, but it doesn't determine current usage.
w m in ca
Ken Rudolph
But does that make all the complaints about "the La Brea Tar Pits"
also irrelevant? Nobody in L.A. actually says 'I'm going to La Brea
Pits', although I've never polled the Hispanics hereabouts.
--Ken Rudolph
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
Of course, I agree with you. I would add that etymology, when properly
applied, provides a wonderful road map and history of language and
culture generally.
Every morning the first thing in my in-box that I read is
Merriam-Webster’s Word of the Day, which almost always has a lovely bit
of etymology included. For example, today:
'Today the word "plausible” usually means “reasonable” or “believable,”
but it once held the meanings "worthy of being applauded" and
"approving." It comes to us from the Latin adjective "plausibilis"
("worthy of applause"), which in turn derives from the verb "plaudere,"
meaning "to applaud or clap.” Other "plaudere" descendants in English
include "applaud," "plaudit" (the earliest meaning of which was "a round
of applause"), and "explode” (from Latin “explodere,” meaning “to drive
off the stage by clapping”).'
Mike McKinley
news:g7f8iq$1ue$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
> Well, to be excruciately correct, one would say "I'm going to Los
> Huecos de la Brea."
Goddam Robert Coren's Typist!
Mike McKinley
news:d_idnXkg-puHvAbV...@supernews.com...
Well, to be excruciately correct, one would say "I'm going to Los Huecos
de la Brea."
Ellen Evans
If they're actually complaints, and not just ironic comments about Anglo
inability to understand the language of a substantial number of their
co-inhabitants, yes.
Robert S. Coren
Ellen Evans <je...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <d_idnXkg-puHvAbV...@supernews.com>,
>Ken Rudolph <ke...@nospamkenru.net> wrote:
>>Arnold Zwicky wrote:
>>> in article <ffWdnb2Wld2dqAfV...@posted.isomediainc>,
>>> frank maloney <fr...@blarg.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Not important to some of our more cosmopolitan and polyglottal
>>> >colleagues. I have seen complaints here that Sahara Desert and Gobi
>>> >Desert are pleonasms (sahra, pl. sahara, being desert in Arabic; gobi
>>> >being desert in Mongolian). Likewise, Avon is a cognate of a Welsh
>>> >word for river, afon (pronounced avon). Interesting all, but I doubt
>>> >I will change my usage.
>>>
>>> interesting, but not relevant to modern english usage.
>>
>>But does that make all the complaints about "the La Brea Tar Pits"
>>also irrelevant? Nobody in L.A. actually says 'I'm going to La Brea
>>Pits', although I've never polled the Hispanics hereabouts.
>
>If they're actually complaints, and not just ironic comments about Anglo
>inability to understand the language of a substantial number of their
>co-inhabitants, yes.
No, I think it's more (or less) than that. I've never understood why
people actually object (if anyone seriously does) to this usage. Nor
ia it a matter of "not understanding" the language, it's a matter of
which language one is speaking.
"La Brea" is the name of a place. The name happens to mean "The Tar"
in Spanish, but we're not speaking Spanish.
There are tar pits in La Brea. One could reasonably refer to them as
"the tar pits at La Brea", and "The La Brea tar pits" is a perfectly
normal English locution for same.
Nobody expects English-speakers to suddenly start speaking Spanish, or
to pause to consider what they would be saying if they *were* speaking
Spanish, just because they happen to have mentioned, oh, San Francisco
or Los Angeles or Paso Robles or just about any place name in
California.
--
---Robert Coren (co...@panix.com)------------------------------------
"My fax machine, which was made by the French state, always blames
someone else when things go wrong."
--Adam Gopnik
Mike McKinley
news:g7faa4$5n0$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> Nobody expects English-speakers to suddenly start speaking Spanish, or
> to pause to consider what they would be saying if they *were* speaking
> Spanish
Boy, ain't it truth! Ain't it the truth!
You should listen to me trying to explain "ain't" or "schlepp" to
Alfonso. Especially all the Yiddishisms. Even though Spanish is
chockablock with Arabic-derived words, he just looks at me like I'm a
ridiculous pedant.
Butcha'yar, Blanche, ch'yar a ridiculous pedant!
(I beat you bitches to the punch!)
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
[]
> Nobody expects English-speakers to suddenly start speaking Spanish, or
> to pause to consider what they would be saying if they *were* speaking
> Spanish, ...
That's just it- _nobody_ expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Robert S. Coren
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) <d4g...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Robert S. Coren <co...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>[]
>> Nobody expects English-speakers to suddenly start speaking Spanish, or
>> to pause to consider what they would be saying if they *were* speaking
>> Spanish, ...
>
>That's just it- _nobody_ expects the Spanish Inquisition!
You are Michael Palin, and I claim my five pounds.
--
---Robert Coren (co...@panix.com)------------------------------------
"Little baklavas pulsate in the oven. It's scary and somewhat
erotic." --BBC
Ellen Evans
Actually, in this case, I think it just means the place where the tar is.
There is a town called La Brea and also a street, but this La Brea is just
a park where there is tar.
>There are tar pits in La Brea. One could reasonably refer to them as
>"the tar pits at La Brea", and "The La Brea tar pits" is a perfectly
>normal English locution for same.
In this case, and I'm pulling this out of thin air, my guess is that "tar
pits" got added so that English speakers would know what was there. And
then it became the name of the place (the whole "the La Brea tar pits" as
a unit) where you could see bits of very old bones and methane bubbles.
>Nobody expects English-speakers to suddenly start speaking Spanish, or
>to pause to consider what they would be saying if they *were* speaking
>Spanish, just because they happen to have mentioned, oh, San Francisco
>or Los Angeles or Paso Robles or just about any place name in
>California.
Well, I personally think it would be a very, very good thing if the Anglos
here could speak Spanish, as it is the native and sole languge of a
substantial part of the population, a population that was, after all, here
first. I am, of course, one of those Anglos who does not speak Spanish,
but I am, in fact, slightly ashamed of that.
David W. Fenton
Well, except when you *mean* to.
Thought of you the other night watching the movie "Gilda" in which
the title character declares "If I were a ranch, I'd be called the
'Bar None.'"
--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jack Hamilton
wrote:
>Well, I personally think it would be a very, very good thing if the Anglos
>here could speak Spanish, as it is the native and sole languge of a
>substantial part of the population, a population that was, after all, here
>first.
Second, at least, behind the Chumash. They probably weren't first
either. And I'm not sure that the majority of the current
Spanish-speaking population of Los Angeles is descended from the
original Spanish settlers.
>I am, of course, one of those Anglos who does not speak Spanish,
>but I am, in fact, slightly ashamed of that.
Agreed.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
[]
> Well, I personally think it would be a very, very good thing if the Anglos
> here could speak Spanish, as it is the native and sole languge of a
> substantial part of the population, a population that was, after all, here
> first.
Well, before English speakers.
Mike McKinley
news:Xns9AF3D22AE228f9...@64.209.0.94...
> Thought of you the other night watching the movie "Gilda" in which
> the title character declares "If I were a ranch, I'd be called the
> 'Bar None.'"
Darling, I'm so flattered!
Dennis Lewis
>
>... Every morning the first thing in my in-box that I read is
Tangentially related to word etymology is the origin of place names.
One thing I enjoy about reading AAA TourBooks is learning how some
towns got their names; i.e. these examples from the Idaho TourBook:
* Pocatello was named for a Bannock chief who granted right-of-way
through tribal lands to the Utah & Northern railroad. The community
was originally called Pocatello Junction. ("Come ride the little train
that is going round the track to the junction...")
* Boise was so named because early French-Canadian trappers were so
overjoyed to see trees after their long trek across the semi-arid
plain.
* Coeur d'Alene ("heart of the awl") was a term French trappers
bestowed on a local tribe who were particularly shrewd in trade
negotiations.
* Kooskia is a Nez Perce phrase meaning "where the waters join."
* Montpelier was so dubbed by Brigham Young because he was from
Vermont.
* Nampa derives its name from Shoshone Chief Nampuh, who was the
original "Bigfoot" due to his 17-inch-long feet (and his ... no,
strike that other thought).
Then there are those places that AAA leaves you wondering (though
these days I suppose you could satisfy your curiosity via Wikipedia):
* Moscow was a favorite summer haven for the Nex Perce and the
preferred trapping ground of French Canadians. No clue, though, as to
how it ended up sharing the name of Russia's capital.
* Kamiah lies just south of where Meriwether Lewis and William Clark
camped in the spring of 1806. No hint as to origin of the word,
though. ("Oh, kamiah, William!" "Yeah? Well, kamiah on you and your
whole house, Meriwether!" "Oh yeah?" "Yeah!")
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
> On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:26:37 -0700, Frank R.A.J. Maloney wrote:
>> ... Every morning the first thing in my in-box that I read is
>> Merriam-Webster’s Word of the Day, which almost always has a lovely bit
>> of etymology included. ...
>
> Tangentially related to word etymology is the origin of place names.
> One thing I enjoy about reading AAA TourBooks is learning how some
> towns got their names; i.e. these examples from the Idaho TourBook:
[deletion]
You're quite right. Why towns are so named is often fascinating and
sometimes a look into the past as your list demonstrates.
One of my favorite Idaho names is Owyhee (county, river, and dam). It's
an obsolete spelling of "Hawaii". The river was so named about 1820 for
three Hawaiian trappers -- Kanakas or Sandwich Islanders, as they were
called in those days -- who were killed by men of a local Bannock band.
Tim McDaniel
Dennis Lewis <d...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>* Moscow was a favorite summer haven for the Nex Perce and the
>preferred trapping ground of French Canadians. No clue, though, as to
>how it ended up sharing the name of Russia's capital.
At the time it was named, Russia's second city, surely?
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
From History of Latah County
(http://users.moscow.com/lchs/history.html#moscow):
Moscow (Hog Heaven; Paradise Valley)
"In 1871 the Lieuallen brothers, Asbury and Noah, and around 20 other
families arrived in the valley. Drawn by the abundant grassland and
availability of timber for building, they established their homes. They
first called the area Hog Heaven and later renamed it Paradise Valley.
With the establishment of the business district in 1875, the town, by
then called Moscow, began developing as a trading center. The coming of
the Oregon Railroad & Navigation Company's rail line (now Union Pacific)
in 1885 touched off a migration that boosted the young town's population
to 2000 in 1890. In 1889, the year before Idaho became a state, the
decision to locate the University of Idaho at Moscow gave new impetus to
Moscow's growth. A second railroad line, the Northern Pacific, reached
the town in 1890.
"Moscow was not the first name given to this northern Idaho town. The
first permanent settlers, many of whom were farmers, brought their
families along with all their belongings including their livestock.
Their pigs especially enjoyed the wild camas flower bulbs growing on the
lush, rolling hills and proceeded to root them out. The farmers called
the area “Hogs' Heaven,” but their wives preferred “Paradise Valley.”
When it came time to register an official town name the women said no to
Hog Heaven, and the postal service said no to Paradise Valley because
there already an Idaho town with that name.
"The origin of the name Moscow has long been disputed. There is no
evidence that it was named by a Russian or for a Russian city. What can
be verified is this: five of the settlers met to choose a proper name.
They wanted a prestigious name, one that would bode well for the town.
They failed to come to an agreement quickly, and so they designated the
postmaster, Samuel Neff, to complete the official papers. He chose
Moscow, which because of its favorable meaning, ‘city of brotherly
love,’ met the desired requirements. An interesting sidelight to the
choice is that Neff was born in Moscow, Pennsylvania and later moved to
Moscow, Iowa."
BTW, the original Moscow was named after the Moskva river, but the
origin of that word is disputed. One common etymology derives it from
the Slavic for "boggy, swampy". However, another theory links it to the
Urgo-Finnish for "cow's river" or "bear". But "city of brotherly love"
is not an interpretation I've never run into before.
Joe Fineman
> * Moscow was a favorite summer haven for the Nex Perce and the
> preferred trapping ground of French Canadians. No clue, though, as
> to how it ended up sharing the name of Russia's capital.
George R. Stewart, in _American Place Names_, opines:
Though occurring in some 15 states as a habitation-name, it seems
to have been bestowed for no important reason, except that fashion
of the 19th century was to name towns after large foreign cities.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Setting too good an example is a kind of slander seldom :||
||: forgotten. :||
Ann Burlingham
> Second, at least, behind the Chumash. They probably weren't first
> either. And I'm not sure that the majority of the current
> Spanish-speaking population of Los Angeles is descended from the
> original Spanish settlers.
Probably not any more than the current English-speakers are decended
from the original English-speaking immigrants.
--
What use was it having all that money if you could never sit still
or just watch your cattle eating grass?
- Alexander McCall Smith, _The No.1 Ladies' Detective Agency_
Rod Williams
> BTW, the original Moscow was named after the Moskva river, but the
> origin of that word is disputed. One common etymology derives it from
> the Slavic for "boggy, swampy". However, another theory links it to the
> Urgo-Finnish for "cow's river" or "bear". But "city of brotherly love"
> is not an interpretation I've never run into before.
I live for stuff like this.
Michael Thomas
> There are tar pits in La Brea.
No. Seriously.
--
Michael Thomas (mi...@mtcc.com http://www.mtcc.com/~mike/)
shirikodama is best enjoyed through the anus
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
My inadvertent double negative? Or something else?
Rod Williams
> >> BTW, the original Moscow was named after the Moskva river, but the
> >> origin of that word is disputed. One common etymology derives it from
> >> the Slavic for "boggy, swampy". However, another theory links it to the
> >> Urgo-Finnish for "cow's river" or "bear". But "city of brotherly love"
> >> is not an interpretation I've never run into before.
Rod Williams:
> > I live for stuff like this.
Frank R.A.J. Maloney:
> My inadvertent double negative? Or something else?
No, dear -- the whole delicious paragraph (I knew what you meant),
combining useless information and deadpan commentary to hilarious
effect.
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
I agree. I love this stuff, too. Spasibo bolshoye.
Rod Williams
> >>>> BTW, the original Moscow was named after the Moskva river, but the
> >>>> origin of that word is disputed. One common etymology derives it from
> >>>> the Slavic for "boggy, swampy". However, another theory links it to the
> >>>> Urgo-Finnish for "cow's river" or "bear". But "city of brotherly love"
> >>>> is not an interpretation I've never run into before.
Rod Williams:
> >>> I live for stuff like this.
Frank R.A.J. Maloney:
> >> My inadvertent double negative? Or something else?
Rod Williams:
> > No, dear -- the whole delicious paragraph (I knew what you meant),
> > combining useless information and deadpan commentary to hilarious
> > effect.
Frank R.A.J. Maloney:
> I agree. I love this stuff, too. Spasibo bolshoye.
<google, google, google...> pazhalsta!
Mike McKinley
news:489cd96b...@news.west.earthlink.net...
> * Pocatello was named for a Bannock chief who granted right-of-way
> through tribal lands to the Utah & Northern railroad. The community
> was originally called Pocatello Junction. ("Come ride the little train
> that is going round the track to the junction...")
That's where I was born in a trunk!
> * Coeur d'Alene ("heart of the awl") was a term French trappers
> bestowed on a local tribe who were particularly shrewd in trade
> negotiations.
Did summer stock (or schlock) theatre in that town. Very pretty, but
too cold and now the Neo-Nazis have taken over.
Mike McKinley
news:295019fe-d39a-4208...@s1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
You poor dear.
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
Not entirely true about Coeur d'Alene (CDA) and the right-wingers. There
is a substantial resistance by many locals to make a more
moderate/liberal voice heard. In addition, there is a major resort in
CDA and a huge up-tick in tourism in the last decade or so has diluted
the provincialism and fear of outsiders.
The Southern Poverty Law Center won a $6.3 million judgment that closed
Richard Girnt Butler's Aryan Nations and his Church of Jesus
Christ-Christian compound outside Hayden Lake back in 2000. His
remaining followers have splintered into other groups, but the blush is
definitely off that rose.
To get the the real deal (white supremacists/separatists) you need to go
further up the Idaho panhandle than CDA where the hatred is palpable in
towns like Bonners Ferry way the hell up in Boundary County and only 8
miles (13 km) from Ruby Ridge.
Mike McKinley
news:2ISdnc5HdPhLcjzV...@posted.isomediainc...
> Not entirely true about Coeur d'Alene (CDA) and the right-wingers. There
> is a substantial resistance by many locals to make a more moderate/liberal
> voice heard. In addition, there is a major resort in CDA and a huge
> up-tick in tourism in the last decade or so has diluted the provincialism
> and fear of outsiders.
Actually, I worked there in 1972 and the Aryan Nation was still in
Argentina. But some of the locals were terrifying anyway.
Chris Hansen
wrote:
>ailuropoda melanoleuca torontonensis <chris....@utoronto.ca>, in article <ae2aef4c-abb1-48ce...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, dixit:
>>Shirley the phrases "key in your PIN and press OK" or "pin the label
>>to the fabric" are clear enough, even when spoken (where you can't see
>>the capital letters). I don't think too many people are going around
>>stabbing needles (or pins, or other thin sharp objects) into automatic
>>teller machines[*].
>
>"Enter your PIN." In my dialect, that sounds exactly like "enter your
>pen".
That sound like a job for someone whom we would have described, decades ago,
as having a "pin dick";.
I suppose as I'm quite tardy about reading posts, I shouldn't reply to this
one anent "PIN number" or "ATM machine" or even "La Brea Tar Pits".
One does hear "Enter your PIN" quite often, or see it on a screen of said ATM.
Chris "My PIN ought to be '42', I think. I never did get the hang of
Thursdays."
--
Chris Hansen | chrishansenhome at btinternet dot com
http://www.christianphansen.com or
http://chrishansenhome.livejournal.com
"Everything I know about being an evil cult leader,
I learned from my cat." Mike Jankulak
Chris Hansen
wrote:
>"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <d4g...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1ilaohs.1erv6fx1tjv3zvN%d4g...@yahoo.co.uk...
>> Indeed, but make sure you get the double n right when asking Italians
>> their age...
>
> Darling, that's one of my pet peeves with MS Word's Spanish dictionary.
>It happily accepts ano (anus) over año (year), and one doesn't want to be
>caught writing "hace muchos anos" (many anuses ago) as opposed to "hace
>muchos años" (many years ago).
I'm sure that I have recounted this story before, but when I was in seminary
decades ago, we had to take Spanish courses (we all dropped them as soon as we
were allowed to, which I now regret, but in a few years I gather that most RC
in the US will be Hispanics, so it won't be optional). Our instructor, an
older deacon, told us that one new priest, who had been to the immersion
course that the archdiocese conducted in Puerto Rico, came back all fired up
to take on his new curacy in a South Bronx parish, where Spanish was the
lingua franca (now THERE'S an odd phrase, as only French should be the lingua
franca, but I digress). As he was greeting the people coming out of church, he
saw a 5 or 6 year old boy and as he shook hands with him, asked "Quantos anos
tiene usted?" thinking that meant "How old are you?" The little boy looked at
him and replied, "Solamente uno, Padre." or "Only one, Father.", since the
priest's question was really "How many assholes do you have."
Chris "On the other hand, 'many anuses ago' is a good description of my
pre-marital life..." Hansen
Robert Marshall
> On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 07:41:05 -0500, "Mike McKinley"
> <mp...@mail.utexas.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <d4g...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
>>message news:1ilaohs.1erv6fx1tjv3zvN%d4g...@yahoo.co.uk...
>>> Indeed, but make sure you get the double n right when asking
>>> Italians their age...
>>
>> Darling, that's one of my pet peeves with MS Word's Spanish
>> dictionary.
>>It happily accepts ano (anus) over año (year), and one doesn't want
>>to be caught writing "hace muchos anos" (many anuses ago) as opposed
>>to "hace muchos años" (many years ago).
>
> I'm sure that I have recounted this story before, but when I was in
> seminary decades ago, we had to take Spanish courses (we all dropped
> them as soon as we were allowed to, which I now regret, but in a few
> years I gather that most RC in the US will be Hispanics, so it won't
> be optional). Our instructor, an older deacon, told us that one new
> priest, who had been to the immersion course that the archdiocese
> conducted in Puerto Rico, came back all fired up to take on his new
> curacy in a South Bronx parish,
An immersion course? - it wasn't a Baptist seminary?
Robert
--
La grenouille songe..dans son château d'eau
Links and things http://rmstar.blogspot.com/
Dennis Lewis
>
>... As he was greeting the people coming out of church, he
>saw a 5 or 6 year old boy and as he shook hands with him, asked "Quantos anos
>tiene usted?" thinking that meant "How old are you?" The little boy looked at
>him and replied, "Solamente uno, Padre." or "Only one, Father.", since the
And how long did it take the good padre to realize the lad was
responding to a malapropism?
(En Espanol: "No, you're more than one -- surely!")
Chris Hansen
No. Cold-water Babtists aren't allowed to do immersion courses after they've
been babtised.
Chris "I had water poured on my forehead, I presume...having been rather young
at the time I can't actually remember." Hansen
Chris Hansen
I suspect that, while he realised that the kid was too old-looking to be just
one year old, the people falling about laughing at him after he'd said it
would have given him a clue.
Chris "It's a misteak one only makes once." Hansen