Phobe Alert: American Family Assn boycotting Levi Strauss and Toyota
Bryan J. Blumberg
passing along a copy of their latest newsletter. I have written letters
to Toyota and Levi Strauss in support of their policies.
AMERICAN FAMILY ASSOCIATION
Dr. Donald E. Wildmon, President
P.O. Drawer 2440 * 107 Parkgate * Tupelo, Mississippi 38803
Dear AFA Friend,
Great news! We won! The federal judge threw out the suit brought
against your AFA by People for the American Way and the American Civil
Liberties Union.
However, some of these same parties have filed a similar suit in
federal court in Mississippi. The ACLU and People for the American Way
decided not to get involved in this lawsuit. Keep this new suit in your
prayers. Our AFA Law Center attorneys feel like we will win this one,
also. I will keep you informed.
But right now, I need your help again! Please take the following
actions today:
(1) Mail the enclosed postcards to Levi Strauss, to Toyota and to
your local Toyota dealer. (You can find the address for your
local Toyota dealer in the phone book.)
(2) Call Levi Strauss (1-800-872-5384) and Toyota (1-800-331-4331)
and politely tell them you are boycotting them. Also, call
the manager of your local Toyota dealership and tell him you
are boycotting Toyota.
Here's why.
Levi Strauss, which makes Levi's clothing (including jeans) and
Dockers clothing, are punishing the Boy Scouts of America because the
Boy Scouts will not bow down to homosexual activists' demands to use
homosexuals as scoutmasters in their local Boy Scout troops.
And Toyota has begin an advertising campaign in support of the
homosexual lifestyle.
Here are the particulars.
Levi Strauss supported the radical homosexuals who demanded that
Levi Strauss stop giving the Boy Scouts of America financial support
because the Boy Scouts would not accept homosexuals as scoutmasters.
For the past five years Levi Strauss gave between $40,000 and $80,000 a
year to the Boy Scouts.
But now Levi Strauss has sided with the radical homosexuals and
withdrawn its support. In other words,...Levi Strauss feels it is
better business to support the demands of radical homosexuals than the
Boy Scouts of America.
And Levi Strauss did this knowing the Boy Scouts have been sued
because a homosexual scoutmaster molested some young scouts.
Molestation of young scouts by homosexual scoutmasters is a
reality. Here is only one example. On March 21 the Associated Press
carried this article:
Ex-scout leader pleads guilty to rape of 2 boys
Nashville (AP) -- A former Boy Scout leader pleaded guilty to
raping two members of his troop and was sentenced to 30 years in
prison.
Ronald W. Rice pleaded guilty in Williamson County Circuit
Court to two counts of aggravated rape involving a 13-year-old boy
and a former troop member who is now 21. Rice must serve at least
nine years before he is eligible for parole.
Rice was arrested march 18 after a 13-year-old boy told police
Rice had been paying him for sexual favors over the last year.
Police searched a building behind Rice's house and found about 600
photographic negatives of nude children in sexual acts with Rice,
investigators said.
Write Chrm. Robert D. Haas. Tell him you won't buy Levi clothing,
including jeans, or Dockers clothing until Levi Strauss restores its
funding to the Boy Scouts and ends its support of the radical homosexual
agenda.
Also, give Levi Strauss a call. Politely register your complaint.
The toll-free customer service number is 1-800-872-5384.
Also ask stores where you do business to stop selling Levi and
Dockers clothing.
Toyota has also decided to help promote the homosexual lifestyle.
Not only was Toyota the leading sponsor of pro-homosexual TV programs
during the May 1 - July 31, 1991 monitoring period,...but Toyota decided
to recognize and endorse the homosexual lifestyle, and to promote
homosexuals as "family" through their advertising.
Toyota ran ads in Australia which read:
"For some people, a family car is one that has room for a tribe.
When we talk to you about a family car, we mean a car that is big enough
for a couple and their friends to stretch out in comfort."
The "family" in the photo is composed of two men. The ad was run
in a homosexual publication. Toyota has decided it will be good for
their business to push the homosexual lifestyle.
If Toyota doesn't get the message, they no doubt will begin
promoting the homosexuals as "family" in their advertising in America
also.
Sign and mail the enclosed postcard to Mr. Y. Togo, president of
Toyota.
And make your phone call, too. Toyota's toll-free customer service
number is 1-800-331-4331.
Also, write or call your local Toyota dealer and tell him that you
will not purchase another Toyota until Toyota stops advertising in
homosexual publications and sponsoring pro-homosexual television
programs.
Levi Strauss and Toyota can help push the radical homosexual agenda
if they wish. After all, it is their money. But we can also refuse to
buy Levi clothing (including jeans) and Dockers clothing and Toyota
automobiles as long as they continue to push the homosexual agenda. It
is our money! If you want Levi Strauss and Toyota to hear you, speak
with your money.
Thank you for all your support over the past several months. Your
words of encouragement help sustain me.
Your prayers, too, are very much appreciated.
And so are your financial contributions. I know the economy has
been down for some time now. Your sacrifices in support of our work are
uplifting.
If you can help us with a contribution at this time, I will greatly
appreciate it. If not, I understand.
But please mail the cards and make the phone calls today! I'm
really counting on you to do that. Let me remind you how important it
is that you participate in our projects. Without your participation,
your AFA could not be effective.
If possible, write a personal letter to Levi Strauss and Toyota.
If you can't do that, put the card in an envelope and address it. And
if you can't do that, then please mail the card. And be sure to call
Levi Strauss, Toyota and your local Toyota dealer.
Thanks for everything you do. God bless you.
Sincerely,
Donald E. Wildmon
President
P.S. I am counting on you to mail the cards and make the calls!
Let me know you did so by returning the enclosed response form. Thanks
again.
[Note: He did not mention anything about his heart attack in this
letter. I wonder if he even actually wrote the letter himself. Even
Focus on the Family notified all of their members when James Dobson had
a heart attack two years ago. Why would Wildmon not even ask for his
members prayers for his recovery? How very strange.]
========================================
Bryan J. Blumberg, The MacNeal-Schwendler Corporation
815 Colorado Boulevard, Los Angeles, California 90041-1777
(213) 259-4914, B_BLU...@MACSCH.COM
John Dorrance
$$$ is mentioned *lots*. I think I can guess what this group has the most
'faith' in...
--
John Dorrance ** Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico ** tha...@odin.unomaha.edu
I always thought of you as my brick wall
Built like an angel, six feet tall.
Ann Carlson
If you have the mailing addresses for Levi-Strauss and Toyota customer
services departments, would you please post them. I would like to write
in support of their policies and I imagine some of the rest of the group
would also.
I learned last week in a training class that people who are unhappy with
a policy are more than twice as likely to write or phone to complain than
people who support a policy. That means we all have to work twice as hard
to let organizations like this know that the stand they are taking is
appreciated.
--
*************************************************
*Dr. Ann B. Carlson (car...@ab24.larc.nasa.gov)* O .
*MS 366 * o _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center * <`)= _<<
*Hampton, VA 23665-5225 * \\\ \\
*************************************************
Martin H. Brooks
car...@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) writes:
>
> If you have the mailing addresses for Levi-Strauss and Toyota customer
Thanks to li...@hri.com (Craig Hughes) for posting the address for
Levi, Strauss & Company in article <65...@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com>.
For those who like to cut, paste, format, print, and send:
Liz Ahern, Consumer Affairs Manager
Levi Strauss & Company
1155 Battery Street
San Francisco, CA 94111
I am writing to commend your companyUs decision to withdraw its
financial support from the Boy Scouts of America due to its
outrageous discriminatory policy in regard to both children and
adults who are gay or lesbian.
Institutions that are entrusted with shaping the values of our
youth need to deliver a message of tolerance and inclusiveness if
they hope to have a positive impact on the lives of young people.
By continuing the atmosphere of discrimination and the outcasting
of gays and lesbians, I feel that the Boy Scouts contribute to
the disproportionately high rate of teenage suicide within that
group.
Allow me to applaud your company for taking a constructive stand
in this matter.
Sincerely,
After sending a letter, I was impressed that they sent a pamphlet
describing their anti-discriminatory policy in regard to their
charitable contributions. Any organization applying for such funding
must meet certain criteria to qualify for approval. With its blatant
anti-gay/lesbian policy, the Boy Scouts of America simply does not
qualify. Levi Strauss seems committed to defending its policy.
--
Martin Brooks
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Email: mb...@prism.gatech.edu
Tane' Tachyon
In article <thaaang.710755499@odin> tha...@odin.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes:
>Notice that prayer is only mentioned once in this letter, but contributing
>$$$ is mentioned *lots*. I think I can guess what this group has the most
>'faith' in...
I once got an "evil homosexuals" letter from Anita Bryant which put it
all in terms of "love offerings", even to the point of having "I am
sending a love offering of $35[] $50[] ..." boxes to check off on the
reply coupon. Talk about perverse!
And in the nostalgia-for-college-days department, these days I can
write a letter telling someone like her off, and it just means I'm not
getting any work-work done while I'm doing it. But in *those* days I
could do it and then also get credit for turning a copy of it in as a
writing assignment. :-)
--
____________________________________________________________________________
|tac...@deeptht.armory.com \ /__ One of the Bivariant Illuminati |
| tac...@ucscb.ucsc.edu \ / / I only like sigs on *other* people|
| tac...@gorn.echo.com \/ / I should go log off and get to work!|
----------------------------------\/----------------------------------------
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
>Note: I do not agree with the American Family Association. I'm just
>passing along a copy of their latest newsletter. I have written letters
>to Toyota and Levi Strauss in support of their policies.
>
Please, do not post this untreated sewage on soc.motss, no
matter what your intentions are; it pollutes the space and
I for one do not want to swim in shit.
If you must "alert" us to something we should all be
entirely too familiar with already, do it on one of alt
groups, not here.
--
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"Only the mediocre can always be at their best." -- Mencken
For an average time write uunet!microsoft!frankm
For an even more mediocre time try fra...@microsoft.com
Frank Elliott
A little indirection might be helpful. Why not post the article in
a.p.h. and post a pointer to it in soc.motss.
Regards,
Another Frank
Steve Dyer
>A little indirection might be helpful. Why not post the article in
>a.p.h. and post a pointer to it in soc.motss.
A veritable King Solomon he is. Doesn't this sound like the best
solution?
--
Steve Dyer
dy...@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
ryerson.schwark
>>Note: I do not agree with the American Family Association. I'm just
>>passing along a copy of their latest newsletter. I have written letters
>>to Toyota and Levi Strauss in support of their policies.
>>
>
>Please, do not post this untreated sewage on soc.motss
I agree, but several other people do seem to like to shit where they
eat, as long at they point out that it isn't THEIR shit, they just
wanted you to see this really ugly shit. Look at it, isn't it gross?
Doesn't it stink? it isn't mine, but I thought I'd bring it here cause
it was so gross that I thought you'd want to see it, even though I know
you've seen lots of ugly shit before, its just you haven't seen THIS ugly
shit before. Are you sure you get it? Want another wiff? Pretty gross
huh?
Ry Schwark
r...@usl.com
Ron Buckmire
>In article <1992Jul9.1...@draco.macsch.com> Bryan J. Blumberg <b_blu...@macsch.com (Bryan J. Blumberg)> writes:
>>Note: I do not agree with the American Family Association. I'm just
>>passing along a copy of their latest newsletter. I have written letters
>>to Toyota and Levi Strauss in support of their policies.
>>
>If you must "alert" us to something we should all be
>entirely too familiar with already, do it on one of alt
>groups, not here.
Arggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! Not THIS argument again! Didn't we already do this?
There was a $%$Ying label on the post, Mr. Maloney! If you don't want to read
it, then hit 'n'! Sheeeeeeeeesh!
Thank you, Bryan for posting this. Please post often!
--
RON BUCKMIRE, 54 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735. ``D.C. in 93!''
vox:(518)-276-8919 fax:(518)-276-6920 buc...@rpi.edu buc...@rpitsmts.bitnet
"Yes, you can get AIDS from a mosquito...*IF* you have unprotected
receptive anal intercourse with an infected mosquito..." -- Randy Shilts
The God-Bitch Emperor of Snuggle Bunnies
>In article <1992Jul9.1...@draco.macsch.com> Bryan J. Blumberg <b_blu...@macsch.com (Bryan J. Blumberg)> writes:
>Please, do not post this untreated sewage on soc.motss, no
>matter what your intentions are; it pollutes the space and
>I for one do not want to swim in shit.
>If you must "alert" us to something we should all be
>entirely too familiar with already, do it on one of alt
>groups, not here.
Ummm... That post wasn't remotely fair... He informed us (us being
soc.motss at large) of something that a) not all of us were aware of
(I can think of about 5 people myself) and b) even if we all were
aware, we needed to be reminded of anyway (keeps us on our toes).
Not everyone may be as well informed or socially alert as you
apparently are.. You didn't have to read it you know. Either
shooting the messenger because you didn't like the message is a pretty
shitty thing to do, so practice what you preach and if your gonna
flame.. Take it to alt.flame (or even better mail).. (I was going to
mail this but, I felt that a show of support for the poster (whose
name I can't remember) was necessary.)
Have A Day
-Olu
*Vox Domini*
******** ___________________________ All expressed opinions are mine unless
* bi * | omho...@acsu.buffalo.edu | otherwise noted.. (UB wouldn't have
**** | V117...@acsu.buffalo.edu | any opinions (besides popular ones)
** --------------------------- anyway..)
Good quote follows:
"I believe that homophobia is equivalent to racism. Prejudicial violence
towards gays and lesbians is as irrational as hostility towards African
Americans. A bigot is a bigot." -L.S. Welch
a flying squirrel
>>A little indirection might be helpful. Why not post the article in
>>a.p.h. and post a pointer to it in soc.motss.
Steve Dyer:
>A veritable King Solomon he is. Doesn't this sound like the best
>solution?
Only if you declare the pointer as float -- as in turds floating on the
surface of the cesspool, of which AFA is certainly a large, juicy specimen.
--
a flying squirrel is: ric...@apple.com Apple Computer Inc.
i'm your girl friend
i'm your squirrel friend
i'm your round the world friend
Stephen Chappell
my support for their policies. They seemed very happy to hear support,
and according to Levi's representative, they've gotten quite a number
of phone calls from people who say they'll boycott their company.
Just thought I'd pass along what I found out.
[] Urso
...who is wearing Levi brand jeans and suspenders as he's typing this
--
[] Stephen Chappell (a.k.a. "Urso")
[] ur...@ursa-major.spdcc.com
[] 15 Walker Street, Powder House Square
[] Somerville, MA 02144-1622, USA
J. N. Shaumeyer
> Notice that prayer is only mentioned once in this letter, but contributing
> $$$ is mentioned *lots*. I think I can guess what this group has the most
> 'faith' in...
Oh, but you're *wrong*. Since every
bill has 'In God We Trust' printed on it,
each dollar is *just* like a prayer....
--jns
Kathy Beatty
: fra...@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney) writes:
:
: >In article <1992Jul9.1...@draco.macsch.com> Bryan J. Blumberg <b_blu...@macsch.com (Bryan J. Blumberg)> writes:
: >>Note: I do not agree with the American Family Association. I'm just
: >>passing along a copy of their latest newsletter. I have written letters
: >>to Toyota and Levi Strauss in support of their policies.
: >>
:
: >If you must "alert" us to something we should all be
: >entirely too familiar with already, do it on one of alt
: >groups, not here.
: Arggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! Not THIS argument again! Didn't we already do this?
: There was a $%$Ying label on the post, Mr. Maloney! If you don't want to read
: it, then hit 'n'! Sheeeeeeeeesh!
:
: Thank you, Bryan for posting this. Please post often!
What he said!!!
Kathy
Mike Drayton
>Notice that prayer is only mentioned once in this letter, but contributing
>$$$ is mentioned *lots*. I think I can guess what this group has the most
>'faith' in...
----------
Mr. Pat: "Pound notes is the best religion in the world."
Ropeen: "And the best politics!"
"The Hostage", Brendan Behan
Mike Drayton
mdra...@sr.hp.com
Jess Anderson
In article <1992Jul10.2...@auto-trol.com>
kat...@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty) writes:
As do quite a few other people. This subject has been
around more than once before. What there was in the way of
an actual argument has already been aired, probably more
than enough.
What's coming up this time is a fairly vivid demonstration
of how little tolerance we have for one another. The phobes
must like that, as it's one of our greatest weaknesses.
While I don't need the phobe broadcasts, and while I would
prefer the suggested indirection (posting in a.s.p.h w/
point here), that won't work for many people, whereas just
about everybody can skip a posting they don't want to see.
All things taken together, as long as phobic documents are
labeled as such in the Subject: line, it's probably more
useful to more people for them to be posted here than not
posted here. If it manifests as an annoyance for some, it's
a real service for others -- that seems *real* clear -- and
on balance, accepting a little annoyance for the common good
seems bearable to me.
--
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: ande...@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: ande...@yak.macc.wisc.edu Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Steve Dyer
>>A little indirection might be helpful. Why not post the article in
>>a.p.h. and post a pointer to it in soc.motss.
>A veritable King Solomon he is. Doesn't this sound like the best
>solution?
Well, perhaps you could make a case for receiving it, then.
Gad, what a concept. (Actually, it's your good fortune and
your sysadmin's good taste that you don't, but that's another
discussion.)
Look, Bryan put "Phobe Alert" in the Subject, put a
warning of the toxic contents in his first paragraph.
Anyone who chose to read any further knew exactly
what they were getting into.
My, how cut 'n dried it must seem to you!
Leave him alone & let him continue posting. Thank you.
I really don't care, myself. Brian's relayed phobe postings are the
kind of stuff I skip over anyway (but then, I'd skip over the longer
press releases from the NGLTF, too.) They hold no resonance for me,
unlock no bogeymen, arouse no fears or revulsion, just a weird kind
of pity for the perpetrators. I can completely understand why
Brian does this, and I can understand why some people might find
reading these articles useful.
However, this is not the first time this discussion has cropped up.
Apparently a lot of people have problems with this stuff being posted
here. A lot of people have expressed the opinion that they feel that
their space is being invaded, and would just as soon not care to see it,
even to the point of typing 'n'. I understand and respect those opinions.
Given that there are other possible venues for this material,
specifically alt.politics.homosexuality (and I find the plea
"we don't get that group" rather irrelevant), and given that
these articles don't contain original motss material, but rather
quoted material from phobes, AND that such material seems to disturb
quite a few people such that "leave him alone" isn't going to
make much difference, doesn't it make sense to try to compromise
as was suggested in the basenote quoted above? I don't think it's
at all an unreasonable solution.
Bryan J. Blumberg
>Bryan,
> If you have the mailing addresses for Levi-Strauss and Toyota customer
>services departments, would you please post them. I would like to write
>in support of their policies and I imagine some of the rest of the group
>would also.
Dear Ann,
I don't have the stuff with me at work today. I promise that
on Monday, I will post the addresses that the American Family
Association provided.
It was an error on my part to omit them from my original posting.
I'm sorry.
Bryan
Nelson Minar
>If you must "alert" us to something we should all be
>entirely too familiar with already, do it on one of alt
>groups, not here.
get over it, honey.
or maybe it is time to make soc.motss.nice.. whadda ya think?
--
__
nel...@reed.edu \/ You stupid vulgar greedy ugly American death sucker
Donn F. Pedro
:>Note: I do not agree with the American Family Association. I'm just
:>passing along a copy of their latest newsletter. I have written letters
:>to Toyota and Levi Strauss in support of their policies.
:>
:
:Please, do not post this untreated sewage on soc.motss, no
:matter what your intentions are; it pollutes the space and
:I for one do not want to swim in shit.
:
:If you must "alert" us to something we should all be
:entirely too familiar with already, do it on one of alt
:groups, not here.
Here we go again .....
How many oppose? How many support?
The survey says!!!!!
BING!
Donn Pedro ....................................dfp...@uswnvg.com
There are no ordinary moments.
Donn F. Pedro
:In article <1992Jul10....@news2.cis.umn.edu> ell...@a8.ima.umn.edu (Frank Elliott) writes:
After Maloneys post:
:>A little indirection might be helpful. Why not post the article in
:>a.p.h. and post a pointer to it in soc.motss.
:
:A veritable King Solomon he is. Doesn't this sound like the best
:solution?
And with that let me add:
{pointing each direction}
What he said, and what *he* said, and what HE said.
Donn F. Pedro
[ Sounds of wind howling and snow crunching under fur boots ]
Eskimo_1: Chabornic!
Chabornic: Huh.
Eskimo_1: What dat?
Chabornic: Look like digchit.
Eskimo_1: Touch.
[ **SQUISH!!!** ]
Chabornic: Feel like dogchit.
Eskimo_1: Sniff.
[ sniff!!!! ]
Chabornic: EEEEoooouuuuuuuu! Smell like dogchit.
[ gasp, gasp ]
Eskimo_1: Taste.
[ **lick** ]
Chabornic: ***Blech*** ***ptooey*** ***gag*** Taste like dogchit.
Eskimo_1: Hmmmmm. Good thing we not step in it.
[ sounds of wind blowing and snow chruching as they trudge off. ]
With thanks to Cheech and Chong.
Donn F. Pedro
>
>In article <1992Jul10.2...@auto-trol.com>
>kat...@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty) writes:
>
>As do quite a few other people. This subject has been
>around more than once before. What there was in the way of
>an actual argument has already been aired, probably more
>than enough.
>
>What's coming up this time is a fairly vivid demonstration
>of how little tolerance we have for one another. The phobes
>must like that, as it's one of our greatest weaknesses.
I know this stuff exists and I understand Bryan's motives.
I am not faulting him for posting here because, as you point
out below, he does lable the stuff, and others may not get the
alt groups.
But, like having blood drawn, or climbing a phone pole in the
driving rain, I know it has to be sone (somewhere) but I
don't have to enjoy it.
>While I don't need the phobe broadcasts, and while I would
>prefer the suggested indirection (posting in a.s.p.h w/
>point here), that won't work for many people, whereas just
>about everybody can skip a posting they don't want to see.
How about one keyword that those with killfiles can use to
skip articles besides using /Blumberg/ .
>If it manifests as an annoyance for some, it's
>a real service for others -- that seems *real* clear -- and
>on balance, accepting a little annoyance for the common good
>seems bearable to me.
Like I said, I can see the necesity for some, but that doesn't
mean it is enjoyable.
In some ways, along with all the phobes that call into the
talk radio host I like to listen to, I find it quite depressing
at times.
So much hate, and so little time.
Nelson Minar
>How about one keyword that those with killfiles can use to
>skip articles besides using /Blumberg/ .
Like, say, oh, I dunno, gee...
"^Subject:.*Phobe Alert"
Amazing what you can find out if you pay a little attention to how
Bryan titles his posts.
--
__
nel...@reed.edu \/ The sully-van vultures are on the prowl
J. N. Shaumeyer
Nelson Minar (nel...@reed.edu) asks:
> ...or maybe it is time to make soc.motss.nice.. whadda ya think?
As the sole inmate of soc.motss.nice, hoping
as I am for parole any day now, I've been
giving this a lot of thought.
I propose soc.motss.algonquin as the place
to be.
Witness Clare Boothe Luce: "You couldn't say
`Pass the salt' without somebody turning it
into a pun or trying to top it."
--jns
00dare...@bsu-ucs.uucp
*smirk*
Personally, I was glad it was posted. Living in a small Indiana hick town
as I do, stories such as this are filtered from the media. I'm also a poor
college student, so buying magazines, (WHERE?) wouldn't work either. So
my only source of information is soc.motss, and that is only when I can
get to a computer system.
Dar
ale...@bsu-cs.bsu.edu
Yeah, so what, did I ask for the black-book treatment? -me
Kathy Beatty
:
: Nelson Minar (nel...@reed.edu) asks:
Excuse me, John. Would you pass the schmaltz?
Kathy, expecting to see only schmaltz in soc.motss.nice.
Donn F. Pedro
>In article <24...@uswnvg.uswnvg.com> dfp...@uswnvg.com.UUCP (Donn F. Pedro) writes:
>>How about one keyword that those with killfiles can use to
>>skip articles besides using /Blumberg/ .
>
>Like, say, oh, I dunno, gee...
>
>"^Subject:.*Phobe Alert"
>
>Amazing what you can find out if you pay a little attention to how
>Bryan titles his posts.
For the most part, Nelson, I didn't pay much attention, for reasons
stated in a post following the one you quote, so I missed it.
I accept your tone ( I deserved it ).
BTW: Are you marching against the OCA in July?
Roger B.A. Klorese
>Given that there are other possible venues for this material,
>specifically alt.politics.homosexuality (and I find the plea
Try this:
The AltNet is *not* part of Usenet; it travels along with it, and
while we might appropriately find "we don't get that group" pleas
irrelevant for *real* Usenet groups, the fact that it appears in a
different and tenuously related network is itself irrelevant.
If soc.motss is to be a party space or a queer feel-good spot as its
only purpose, I agree with you. But I can't see that as a goal. There
are many on the net who look to this space for their political information,
their GLB context. Maybe the "don't disturb my hidey-place" crowd needs
to create alt.gay-bar...
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rog...@unpc.QueerNet.ORG {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!mips!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
-- J. Foster
Steve Dyer
>>Given that there are other possible venues for this material,
>>specifically alt.politics.homosexuality (and I find the plea
>>"we don't get that group" rather irrelevant)...
>while we might appropriately find "we don't get that group" pleas
>irrelevant for *real* Usenet groups, the fact that it appears in a
>different and tenuously related network is itself irrelevant.
The alt groups are arguably as much a part of USENET at this point as
the comp groups. An argument like yours is better used in international
diplomacy, and not wasted here. You'd be great for the Arab/Israeli
negotiations...
>If soc.motss is to be a party space or a queer feel-good spot as its
>only purpose, I agree with you. But I can't see that as a goal. There
>are many on the net who look to this space for their political information,
>their GLB context. Maybe the "don't disturb my hidey-place" crowd needs
>to create alt.gay-bar...
First, this is just a cheap shot: the people who were complaining about
such posts aren't objecting to political information, nor can they be
described as "feel-good" or "hidey-place" types. Why don't you take
another look to see who was complaining? Melinda Shore and Frank Maloney.
Wow. True disco-queen lightweights.
Second, you're the one who created a.p.h. Had a change of heart since
then?
Gary Klein, bear at heart
(Donn F. Pedro) writes:
>...
>
> How many oppose? How many support?
>
> The survey says!!!!!
>
> BING!
69 people from our audience replied HOPE!
Tell us Gene, who are tonight's contestants?
On this side of the stage, we welcome the HOMOPHOBES. Jesse's at the
helm, and his posse is lined up along side him.
And over on the other side of the FEUD we have that lovely opposing
family, the HOMOHOMOPHOBES, led by the leading closet designer from New York
City, the one and only Roy Cohn!
--
"Librarian, Leather bound"
Gary Klein, Business Librarian, (Univ of Toledo) * * * *
PO Box 12650 Toledo OH 43606-0250 * *
(w): 419-537-2629 fac2813@uoft01 *
(h): 419-243-2740 fac...@uoft01.utoledo.edu B4 t+ w- g s+ k
Roger Phillips
j...@wam.umd.edu (Chey. Enne. Shawneeyer) writes:
> I propose soc.motss.algonquin as the place to be.
>
> Witness Clare Boothe Luce: "You couldn't say
> `Pass the salt' without somebody turning it
> into a pun or trying to top it."
Sioooooux, soc.motss.nice has algonquintessentially wrong, has it?
Ojibwaaaahahahaha!
It's not the chi-chinook you were hopi-ing for?
Huron your own, which you navajoped would happen?
Well hang on natick: I wouldn't kickapoor brother when he's down,
so I've decided to comancheer you up.
Try not to be choktaw disappointed;
I can offer apache solace - illinois you sometimes -
but ute be surprised what a difference my being dynamicmacs!
--
Roger Phillips ro...@quantime.co.uk
"Pooter, n. a petit bourgeois, conventional and unimaginative."
-- Chambers English Dictionary (1988)
adolphson
| I propose soc.motss.algonquin as the place
| to be.
|
| Witness Clare Boothe Luce: "You couldn't say
| `Pass the salt' without somebody turning it
| into a pun or trying to top it."
From Marion Meade's fabu bio of Dorothy Parker:
One evening at the home of Dorothy and Richard
Rodgers, dinner guests were happily and lengthily
denigrating Clare Boothe. Her sole defender at the
table was Ilka Chase, who protested that Clare was
always loyal to her friends. Moreover, added
Chase, Clare was always kind to her inferiors.
"And where does she find them?" asked Dorothy, without
looking up from her plate or missing a bite.
Arne
J. N. Shaumeyer
>
> "And where does she find them?" asked Dorothy, without
> looking up from her plate or missing a bite.
From Jon Winokur's _The Portable Curmudgeon_ [NB, Jake]:
On another occasion, the two women arrived simultaneously
at the door of a nightclub. "Age before beauty," was all
Mrs. Luce could muster.
"And pearls before swine," said Mrs. Parker as she
glided through the doorway.
Or...
Her husband, Alan Campbell, had just died, and as his body
was being removed from the house, a female acquaintance
asked Dorothy if there was anything she could do. "Get
me a new husband," she replied.
"Why, that's the most callous, disgusting remark I've
ever hears," the woman said.
Mrs. Parker turned to her and said quietly, "Okay, then
run down to the corner and get me a ham and cheese on rye
and tell them to hold the mayo."
--jns ["Pass the salt"]
Roger B.A. Klorese
>The alt groups are arguably as much a part of USENET at this point as
>the comp groups. An argument like yours is better used in international
>diplomacy, and not wasted here. You'd be great for the Arab/Israeli
>negotiations...
Arguably, yes. Arguably, no.
>First, this is just a cheap shot: the people who were complaining about
>such posts aren't objecting to political information, nor can they be
>described as "feel-good" or "hidey-place" types. Why don't you take
>another look to see who was complaining? Melinda Shore and Frank Maloney.
>Wow. True disco-queen lightweights.
I agree with you on the former, but I'm not sure one way or the other about
the latter. Besides, I don't know where you dredged up this "disco-queen"
jive from.
How *would* you choose to enlighten the folks in the hinterlands? Should
we post "there's trouble in Oregon... go to your library and read a paper"?
How helpful.
>Second, you're the one who created a.p.h. Had a change of heart since
>then?
Not at all. It was created as a location for discussion about attitudes
toward homosexuality. What Bryan posts is not discussion, nor is the
intent of the poster to question the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality.
On the other hand, if someone were to propose the creation of a moderated
soc.motss.announce, to hold action announcements, phobe alerts, and the
like, I'd be glad to moderate it...
Bob Donahue
>Not at all. It was created as a location for discussion about attitudes
>toward homosexuality. What Bryan posts is not discussion, nor is the
>intent of the poster to question the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality.
>On the other hand, if someone were to propose the creation of a moderated
>soc.motss.announce, to hold action announcements, phobe alerts, and the
>like, I'd be glad to moderate it...
I prefer soc.motss.info (which is more in tradition with other
groups that have done the same thing), and also volunteer to moderate...
(some system like soc.feminism with multi-moderators? It would do
a lot to eliminate the "XXXX censored me!" potential problem with
articles turned down...
So, who is going to bite the e-bullet and do a real RFD?
BBC
Richard McKewen
> I called both Toyota's and Levi-Strauss's toll free numbers and voiced
> my support for their policies. They seemed very happy to hear support,
> and according to Levi's representative, they've gotten quite a number
> of phone calls from people who say they'll boycott their company.
>
Ditto for me. The woman at Levi-Strauss seemed thrilled that she
actually got a call in *support* of their policy. She said that
many more anti- people called than pro-. She also told me to tell
all my friends and family to call and let Levi-Strauss know they
support the policy. They like to hear friendly people every so
often...
As for the original posting of the hate mail from the right-to-oppression
people, I'm glad the original poster shared it with us.
If you don't want to read it, hit the "n" key.
But, any strategist will tell you that you can't win any war unless
you know what your enemy is up to.
> ...who is wearing Levi brand jeans and suspenders as he's typing this
It is much too hot to be wearing jeans today.....guess
what I'm not wearing.....
------------------------------------->
Richard McKewen
University of Louisville
Internet: remc...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Bitnet: remcke01@ulkyvx SIC VOLVUNT PARCAE
<------------------------------------
John Fisher
In article <1992Jul10.1...@PacBell.COM>,
rjw...@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
> Look, Bryan put "Phobe Alert" in the Subject, put a
> warning of the toxic contents in his first paragraph.
The last time this came round, I got quite annoyed with
Bryan and asked him to flag these postings in the subject
line. Since he's done this ever since I've got no reason
to complain.
I admit I take advantage of his courtesy to kill these
postings on sight...
--John
Donn F. Pedro
>
>How *would* you choose to enlighten the folks in the hinterlands? Should
>we post "there's trouble in Oregon... go to your library and read a paper"?
>How helpful.
>
>
>soc.motss.announce, to hold action announcements, phobe alerts, and the
>like, I'd be glad to moderate it...
As one of the 'whiners' I second this motion. While the posts don't
*really* bother me all that much (I just wish they weren't here and
that's just a wish for me), they should be available for those that
want them. This seems like a fine idea.
David Christopher Rogers
Message-ID: <1992Jul11.0...@spdcc.com>
From: dy...@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
>However, this is not the first time this discussion has cropped up.
>Apparently a lot of people have problems with this stuff being posted
>here. A lot of people have expressed the opinion that they feel that
>their space is being invaded, and would just as soon not care to see it,
>even to the point of typing 'n'. I understand and respect those opinions.
>
>Given that there are other possible venues for this material,
>specifically alt.politics.homosexuality (and I find the plea
>"we don't get that group" rather irrelevant), and given that
>these articles don't contain original motss material, but rather
>quoted material from phobes, AND that such material seems to disturb
>quite a few people such that "leave him alone" isn't going to
>make much difference, doesn't it make sense to try to compromise
>as was suggested in the basenote quoted above? I don't think it's
>at all an unreasonable solution.
In a word, no. With due respect to people with a desire not to see
"their space [being] invaded" with objectionable material, I do not
believe we should structure our space to be sanitized with a lowest-
common denominator of objectionability.
Steve makes three points: 1) there are other venues; so what? This
is the one that I read. This is my home, too. 2) they don't contain
original motss material; so what? quoted material is often of
interest to me. 3) the content disturbs some readers, even with
appropriate subject headers; we, of all people, should not use
"objectionable" to put restrictions on material that others want to
read.
Rather than putting to onus on those who want to limit content, I'd
vote to create soc.motss.nice (moderated) for those who want to restrict
content.
I find it ironic and disheartening that in the same newsgroup that
just mentioned Tipper Gore and her campaign to label records, we find
a group of people first advocate "voluntary" labeling of offensive
postings, then after the success of that campaign, advocate banning
them from here.
Finally, I disagree strongly with Steve in his claim it's "[not] at all
an unreasonable solution". I have never supported the intent of the
mythical "charter" which bans homophobes from posting here; now we
see it used against each other. Unreasonable? More like
unconscionable.
David Christopher Rogers
Nelson Minar
>On the other hand, if someone were to propose the creation of a moderated
>soc.motss.announce, to hold action announcements, phobe alerts, and the
>like, I'd be glad to moderate it...
We've got a sucker^H^H^H^H^H^Hvolunteer, let's do it!
I'm curious if the CFV would pass, personally.. was net.motss ever
voted on, or were the rules different back in the flat heirarchy stone
age days?
--
__
nel...@reed.edu \/ It's a sky blue sky, the satellites are out tonight
Jack B. Nimble
r...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark) writes:
>
>In article <1992Jul10.1...@microsoft.com> fra...@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul9.1...@draco.macsch.com> Bryan J. Blumberg <b_blu...@macsch.com (Bryan J. Blumberg)> writes:
>>>Note: I do not agree with the American Family Association. I'm just
>>>passing along a copy of their latest newsletter. I have written letters
>>>to Toyota and Levi Strauss in support of their policies.
>>>
>>
>>Please, do not post this untreated sewage on soc.motss
>
>I agree, but several other people do seem to like to shit where they
>eat, as long at they point out that it isn't THEIR shit, they just
>wanted you to see this really ugly shit. Look at it, isn't it gross?
>Doesn't it stink? it isn't mine, but I thought I'd bring it here cause
>it was so gross that I thought you'd want to see it, even though I know
>you've seen lots of ugly shit before, its just you haven't seen THIS ugly
>shit before. Are you sure you get it? Want another wiff? Pretty gross
>huh?
>
In fairness to Bryan, the point of his posting the article is to call
upon the readers of soc.motss to take some action to counter what the
phobes are doing, not to offend anyone's delicate sensibilities.
As one who has witnessed FIRSTHAND some of Bryan's top notch research
and activism in the struggle against defamation from within GLAAD/LA,
I am appalled at the hatchet job being done here to his reputation.
>Ry Schwark
>r...@usl.com
>
-jbn
Steve Dyer
>Finally, I disagree strongly with Steve in his claim it's "[not] at all
>an unreasonable solution". I have never supported the intent of the
>mythical "charter" which bans homophobes from posting here;
The intent of the "charter" (such as it was--we're merely talking about
the first posting--I'd never heard of a "charter" until people started
calling it that) was merely that soc.motss was not created as a forum
for the mindless discussion of homosexuality right or wrong, but that I
had a different vision of the newsgroup. Now, in an anarchy like this,
invoking this so-called charter to handle a homophobe is just plain dumb
since it carries no weight behind it. However, some are dumb enough to go
away anyway, the rest get tired eventually, and occasionally some can be
argued with.
Now, what did this have to do with what we're discussing?
>now we see it used against each other. Unreasonable?
>More like unconscionable.
Yeah, right. The end of the world is next.
Gosh, David, I just thought it was a matter of courtesy based on a
discussion coming to a common agreement. You know, sort of like not
posting the latest Aryan Nation news releases to soc.culture.jewish or
soc.culture.african-american. Pardon me for acknowledging and
recognizing that such material really bothers some people and because
of that, thinking that it might only be good manners (not to mention
good taste) to post it somewhere else. So, please excuse me for
suggesting that. Pardon me for assuming that it's sometimes possible
to treat motssers as a community of people who might have some common
interests and goals, people who may be open to persuasion, and that the
lowest-common-denominator (another one) of the anarchic rabble is not
always exalted as preferable. (Just another form of laissez-faire
capitalism, IMHO.)
If someone says "<X> bothers me", I try to take that at face value and
then decide on what basis I should act. If I think the person is being
unreasonable, I'll probably say so in no uncertain terms. On the other
hand, I am easily persuaded that hate speech and its derivatives are
discomforting to a number of people. So what's left is some sort of
sense of equity, if that word can be used here. Whose claim is more
valid? I don't know. I don't even think it can be answered. So, I
try to look for other aspects of the question. People are routinely
exposed to expressions of homophobia both in other newsgroups and in
the larger world, so if they don't want to hear it here, why can't I
accomodate them? Well, *I'm* happy to do so. You can do what you
like, and pretend that you're championing free speech at the same time.
Steve Dyer
>I'm curious if the CFV would pass, personally.. was net.motss ever
>voted on, or were the rules different back in the flat heirarchy stone
>age days?
I feel like I'm describing the old days of the Democratic "bosses"
and the machine. :-)
There was no formal vote, per se. There was a lot of discussion and
persuasion in net.admin (or some similar newsgroup--I can't remember),
there was a lot of behind-the-scenes discussion, and a single person,
Mark Horton, who was the "first among equals" among the "backbone sites",
an informal group of UUCP sites which agreed to carry the bulk of news
cross-country. Any new group had to be approved by the backbone cabal.
Clearly, this was well before the widespread use of NNTP and the
Internet (which at the time was the relatively slow ARPAnet.)
Steve Dyer
>In fairness to Bryan, the point of his posting the article is to call
>upon the readers of soc.motss to take some action to counter what the
>phobes are doing, not to offend anyone's delicate sensibilities.
>As one who has witnessed FIRSTHAND some of Bryan's top notch research
>and activism in the struggle against defamation from within GLAAD/LA,
>I am appalled at the hatchet job being done here to his reputation.
Well, I could say that if you help spread shit around, you're not going to
end up smelling like fresh-mowed clover.
But mostly, Brian's intentions and motives have always been very clear
and not under attack here.
Jess Anderson
In article <1992Jul14.0...@spdcc.com> dy...@spdcc.com
(Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <1992Jul13.2...@riacs.edu>
>dro...@riacs.edu (David Christopher Rogers) writes:
If there is no middle way between viewpoints, even when one
seems irreconcilable with the other, then we are left with
the political equivalent of relgious sectarianism,
factionalism. It is extremely unlikely that that tendency
can be of lasting benefit to the cohort as a whole.
I think it's possible to preserve very nearly all of one's
individual persepctive on almost any issue at the same time
as one cedes validity and respect to points of view are in a
variety of ways *quite* unlike one's own. People have been
doing this since time immemorial. Alas, they have also been
doing its opposite, too.
One does not have to be so liberal one's brains fall out,
but I think in a civilized society the social and political
glue -- good will toward one another, despite differences,
plus a sense of belonging to a cohort sharing a broadly
similar set of experiences arising from issues in our
sexuality -- is fundamental to any hope of prevailing in a
world that very nearly despises us *in toto*.
So we may debate all manner of things -- *if* we do not lose
sight of what binds us with one another beyond all
differences. It isn't always a sure thing, I think, to
assume this commonality, which tends to be lost when the
rhetoric of opposing viewpoints reaches a certain kind of
pitch. At such times, I think it's useful to be explicit
about what we are in *shared* space.
--
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: ande...@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: ande...@yak.macc.wisc.edu Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
A Usenet Pal
>end up smelling like fresh-mowed clover.
But wait a while, and, oh, what a beautiful flower garden you'll have!
(For the metaphorically challenged, I think the so-called shit-spreading is
in our own long term best interests.)
-paul asente
ase...@adobe.com ...decwrl!adobe!asente moo-...@cs.stanford.edu
Looking out the window she saw Herbert, Albert, and Harold, the gardener,
an exceptionally well-made youth, disporting themselves on the lawn.
David R. Preston
>>On the other hand, if someone were to propose the creation of a moderated
>>soc.motss.announce, to hold action announcements, phobe alerts, and the
>>like, I'd be glad to moderate it...
>
>We've got a sucker^H^H^H^H^H^Hvolunteer, let's do it!
I wonder how the multi-moderator system works (I probably have a copy
of the paper that was written about sci.med.aids. Somewhere....)?
One of the desired features of s.m.i. would be that there wouldn't
be duplicates of the same news story or whatever, could that be done
with multi-moderators?
>
>I'm curious if the CFV would pass, personally.
Sure, why not? I don't think that there are enough homophobes reading
news.groups that they could overwhelm soc.motss voters.
>voted on, or were the rules different back in the flat heirarchy stone
>age days?
The "backbone" had much more to do with it back then.
--
David R. Preston d...@dosbears.uucp
We're here, we're bored, but we won't be ignored!
D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
David R. Preston
>
>The AltNet is *not* part of Usenet; it travels along with it, and
>while we might appropriately find "we don't get that group" pleas
>irrelevant for *real* Usenet groups, the fact that it appears in a
>different and tenuously related network is itself irrelevant.
Not to put *words* in your mouth, but Shirley you meant relevant, not
irrelevant. Otherwise the "and while" doesn't make much sense.
Irregardless, I like the idea of an *.info or *.announce group, not
so much because of the off-loading of the offensive articles, but
more because it discourages irrelevant follows-up.
David R. Preston
>recognizing that such material really bothers some people and because
>of that, thinking that it might only be good manners (not to mention
>good taste) to post it somewhere else. So, please excuse me for
>suggesting that.
Also, there are a great many newsgroups that have spawned spin-off
newsgroups and there is no longer any reason that we shoudn't. Isn't
it a little odd that there are six official usenet Startrek groups and
only one gay group? Are "we" worried that we'll get voted down? Soc.bi
has certainly been a success....Maybe we should take a page from
rec.motorcycles and have a soc.motss.dirt and soc.motss.racing :-)
David R. Preston
>end up smelling like fresh-mowed clover.
>
>But mostly, Brian's intentions and motives have always been very clear
>and not under attack here.
Well, they were quite a bit at first, but the "phobe alert" is
sufficient as far as I'm concerned.
Melinda Shore
>On the other hand, if someone were to propose the creation of a moderated
>soc.motss.announce, to hold action announcements, phobe alerts, and the
>like, I'd be glad to moderate it...
This is a *splendid* idea. There's quite a bit of stuff
posted here of the announcement ilk, and it tends to get
lost among the dish and the fla^H^H^Hconversation. Phobe
alerts aren't the only postings that could use a more
appropriate home.
--
Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - sh...@tc.cornell.edu
Bryan J. Blumberg
>Bryan,
> If you have the mailing addresses for Levi-Strauss and Toyota customer
>services departments, would you please post them. I would like to write
>in support of their policies and I imagine some of the rest of the group
>would also.
Dear Ann,
I'm sorry I didn't post the addresses on Monday as originally
promissed. I didn't come into work. I feel better today, so here's
the info I promised....
(I'll also include the text of the the AFA's pre-printed post cards
so you can get an idea of what Donald Wildmon would like his followers
to say.)
CHRM. ROBERT D. HAAS
Levi Strauss & Company
Post Office Box 7215
San Francisco, CA 94120
Dear Mr. Haas
I've been informed by the American Family Association that Levi
Strauss has punished the Boy Scouts of America because they will
not accept homosexuals as scoutmasters. Levi Strauss has announced
they are punishing the Boy Scouts by ending their support of
$40,000 to $80,000 per year.
Because of your support for the radical homosexual movement,
I am boycotting Levi Strauss. No more Levi clothing, including
jeans, or Dockers clothing for me. In addition, I will share the
information about your support for the radical homosexual
movement with my family, friends, church members and others. I
will ask them to boycott Levi Strauss and Dockers clothing.
If you want my business back, I must hear from you that you have
agreed to fund the Boy Scouts again.
PRES. Y. TOGO
Toyota Motor Sales
Post Office Box 2991
Torrance, CA 90509
Dear Mr. Togo:
I will never consider purchasing a Toyota automobile until you
announce that Toyota will stop running ads identifying a family as
being two homosexuals, cease advertising in homosexual
publications, and stop sponsoring pro-homosexual programs on
television. If you want me to consider Toyota automobiles, I must
hear from you that you have agreed to the terms for securing
my business.
MANAGER
(your local toyota dealer)
Dear Manager:
I will be unable to consider purchasing a Toyota automobile until
Toyota announces that the company will stop running ads identifying
a family as being two homosexuals, cease advertising in homosexual
publications, and stop sponsoring pro-homosexual programs on
television.
If Toyota wants my business, I must hear from Toyota that they
have agreed to the terms for securing my business.
I hope you will let Toyota know that I am upset with their support
for homosexuality. Perhaps you were not even aware of it.
========================================
Bryan J. Blumberg, The MacNeal-Schwendler Corporation
815 Colorado Boulevard, Los Angeles, California 90041-1777
(213) 259-4914, B_BLU...@MACSCH.COM
Steve Dyer
>Also, there are a great many newsgroups that have spawned spin-off
>newsgroups and there is no longer any reason that we shoudn't. Isn't
>it a little odd that there are six official usenet Startrek groups and
>only one gay group?
Yes, but it doesn't reflect on us! :-)
>Are "we" worried that we'll get voted down? Soc.bi
>has certainly been a success....Maybe we should take a page from
>rec.motorcycles and have a soc.motss.dirt and soc.motss.racing :-)
I find some of these new newsgroup subdivisions excessively anal-retentive.
On the other hand, I think a soc.motss.info or a soc.motss.announce
is fine. I'd hesitate to go much further.
Donn F. Pedro
>upon the readers of soc.motss to take some action to counter what the
>phobes are doing, not to offend anyone's delicate sensibilities.
He made his motives very clear in the origional 'discussion'.
>As one who has witnessed FIRSTHAND some of Bryan's top notch research
>and activism in the struggle against defamation from within GLAAD/LA,
>I am appalled at the hatchet job being done here to his reputation.
Ya know, some of us only voiced that we wished it was not
here, not that it should not be, or that Bryan was a bad guy.
Sheesh! Ya speak from the heart and they hand you a knife
to shut you up.
Elaine Richards
>Bryan,
> If you have the mailing addresses for Levi-Strauss and Toyota customer
>services departments, would you please post them. I would like to write
>in support of their policies and I imagine some of the rest of the group
>would also.
I agree.
I would also like to point out that the kind of pinheads who are into
this pseudo-family shit are prone to living in Winnebagos, drive used
American gashog cars and wear K-Mart polyester pants with stretch belts
to accomodate the mass being dragged downward by the force of gravity.
It might be useful to point out to Toyota and Levis the buying habits
of these ninnies would have no impact on their sales anyway.
ER
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know when it was that I scratched Fate's car door, but I should have
left a note. --Tim Mefford
David Christopher Rogers
Message-ID: <1992Jul14.0...@spdcc.com>
From: dy...@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
>Gosh, David, I just thought it was a matter of courtesy based on a
>discussion coming to a common agreement. You know, sort of like not
>posting the latest Aryan Nation news releases to soc.culture.jewish or
>soc.culture.african-american.
I have seen no "common agreement" that such postings should not take
place here. I cannot comment on what kinds of common agreement exist
in other groups.
>Pardon me for acknowledging and
>recognizing that such material really bothers some people
I acknowledge that people were bothered.
>and because of that, thinking that it might only be good
>manners (not to mention good taste) to post it somewhere else.
I was once asked not to post S/M related material in soc.motss, because
some found it offensive (not to mention beyond "good taste").
Would it have been "good manners" for me to post elsewhere?
>So, please excuse me for suggesting that.
I find it hard to discuss things with you when you use that tone. To
me, it sounds like you're trying to score hits rather than clarify issues.
> Pardon me for assuming that it's sometimes possible
>to treat motssers as a community of people who might have some common
>interests and goals, people who may be open to persuasion, and that the
>lowest-common-denominator (another one) of the anarchic rabble is not
>always exalted as preferable. (Just another form of laissez-faire
>capitalism, IMHO.)
Eloquence worthy of Antonin Scalia!
More seriously, I think I'll avoid trying to disentangle that paragraph,
which is heady with concepts and implications. I think your main
point is stated elsewhere with more directness.
>If someone says "<X> bothers me", I try to take that at face value and
>then decide on what basis I should act. If I think the person is being
>unreasonable, I'll probably say so in no uncertain terms.
OK, try this: people trying to limit what others read because it is
offensive to them bothers me.
>On the other
>hand, I am easily persuaded that hate speech and its derivatives are
>discomforting to a number of people.
We are in agreement that people are offended. What we are in disagreement
on is where to to from there.
So what's left is some sort of
>sense of equity, if that word can be used here. Whose claim is more
>valid? I don't know. I don't even think it can be answered.
On the contrary, you propose an answer.
>So, I try to look for other aspects of the question. People are
>routinely exposed to expressions of homophobia both in other
>newsgroups and in the larger world, so if they don't want to hear
>it here, why can't I accomodate them? Well, *I'm* happy to do so.
You can't accomodate them by giving away OTHERS ability to speak, as
happy as you are to do so. YOU can choose not to post such articles,
but I do not believe any of us should have the ability or right to
choose what OTHERS may post.
>You can do what you like, and pretend that you're championing
>free speech at the same time.
So what makes you think I'm pretending? Care to suggest what you
think my "true" agenda is?
You have a habit of phrasing your arguments in a way that calls into
question the motives of the other participants. Uses such as "pardon me"
and "pretend" add little to the valid point you are making, and
cloud the essence of a valid disagreement.
David Christopher Rogers
Steve Dyer
>I have seen no "common agreement" that such postings should not take
>place here.
Of course not. The discussion hadn't finished.
>I cannot comment on what kinds of common agreement exist
>in other groups.
OK, you can either assume it's OK to post KKK articles to
soc.culture.african-american and the Protocols of the
Elders of Zion to soc.culture.jewish, or you can trust me.
>I was once asked not to post S/M related material in soc.motss, because
>some found it offensive (not to mention beyond "good taste").
>Would it have been "good manners" for me to post elsewhere?
No, it would have been good manners to discuss it (if only to say
"no fucking way" :-)). Was this ever more than an isolated incident?
I could never imagine that if such a suggestion were brought up,
it would ever be taken seriously.
> >So, please excuse me for suggesting that.
>I find it hard to discuss things with you when you use that tone. To
>me, it sounds like you're trying to score hits rather than clarify issues.
As oppposed to you, who would like to cast this as a censorship issue,
with me as the autocratic censor? I rarely fire the first shot.
>Eloquence worthy of Antonin Scalia!
That's good, very good, I admit!
> >If someone says "<X> bothers me", I try to take that at face value and
> >then decide on what basis I should act. If I think the person is being
> >unreasonable, I'll probably say so in no uncertain terms.
>OK, try this: people trying to limit what others read because it is
>offensive to them bothers me.
This is where you're beginning to distort the issue. No one is trying
to limit what others read. The suggestion is to compartmentalize the
articles so that clearly defined "phobe speech" (Brian's quoted stuff)
appears somewhere where that content is expected and accepted. That
could have been a.p.h, it could be this new group that's been proposed.
Why don't you tell us how this is limiting what others read?
> >So what's left is some sort of
> >sense of equity, if that word can be used here. Whose claim is more
> >valid? I don't know. I don't even think it can be answered.
>On the contrary, you propose an answer.
Egad! Now THAT's a crime against nature, isn't it?
Note that you used the verb "propose", not "impose".
I agree with that choice. So what's the problem?
> >So, I try to look for other aspects of the question. People are
> >routinely exposed to expressions of homophobia both in other
> >newsgroups and in the larger world, so if they don't want to hear
> >it here, why can't I accomodate them? Well, *I'm* happy to do so.
>You can't accomodate them by giving away OTHERS ability to speak, as
>happy as you are to do so.
C'mon, David. Really. How do you suggest that I might do that?
>YOU can choose not to post such articles,
>but I do not believe any of us should have the ability or right to
>choose what OTHERS may post.
Snort. People can post whatever the hell they like to. However,
not all of it is going to be greeted warmly, and I see nothing wrong
with trying to come to a consensus which accomodates all parties.
That was my "hidden agenda".
>You have a habit of phrasing your arguments in a way that calls into
>question the motives of the other participants. Uses such as "pardon me"
>and "pretend" add little to the valid point you are making, and
>cloud the essence of a valid disagreement.
Pardon me for pretending to be offended at being called a censor.
Roger B.A. Klorese
>In article <1992Jul12....@queernet.org> rog...@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese) writes:
>>
>>The AltNet is *not* part of Usenet; it travels along with it, and
>>while we might appropriately find "we don't get that group" pleas
>>irrelevant for *real* Usenet groups, the fact that it appears in a
>>different and tenuously related network is itself irrelevant.
>
>Not to put *words* in your mouth, but Shirley you meant relevant, not
>irrelevant. Otherwise the "and while" doesn't make much sense.
No, it makes sense: the pleas would be irrelevant for real groups,
because it should be possible to add them, but the pleas would be
relevant for crossovers with Altnet, because it ain't Real Usenet,
so the presence of the crossovers is meaningless.
Robert White
{Arggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! Not THIS argument again! Didn't we already do this?
{There was a $%$Ying label on the post, Mr. Maloney! If you don't want to read
{it, then hit 'n'! Sheeeeeeeeesh!
{
Agreed. I thought labeling the stuff "phobe alert" was working pretty
well, and I'd hate to see it go to a.h.p since I don't get that group
and I DO write letters.
Perhaps it could be rot-thirteened for those people
with brain-dead software forced to look through the
malodorous contents. This would be the equivalent of stuffing it into
little plastic baggies that can be opened for a sniff when needed.
--
[ Robert Carleton White, Jr. ]
[ If not you, who? If not now, when? ]
[ r...@scicom.alphacdc.com ]
Ann Carlson
|> In article <1992Jul10.1...@news.larc.nasa.gov> car...@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) writes:
|> > If you have the mailing addresses for Levi-Strauss and Toyota customer
|> >services departments, would you please post them. I would like to write
|> >in support of their policies and I imagine some of the rest of the group
|> >would also.
|>
|> this pseudo-family shit are prone to living in Winnebagos, drive used
|> American gashog cars and wear K-Mart polyester pants with stretch belts
|> to accomodate the mass being dragged downward by the force of gravity.
|>
Judging from an earlier article, they won't be wearing K-Mart clothes much
longer. Where *will* they get anything to wear? :-)
--
*************************************************
*Dr. Ann B. Carlson (car...@ab24.larc.nasa.gov)* O .
*MS 366 * o _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center * <`)= _<<
*Hampton, VA 23665-5225 * \\\ \\
*************************************************
Michelle Elliott
>
>irrelevant.
>
Shirley you meant "regardless"
Michelle
Mike Drayton
>Judging from an earlier article, they won't be wearing K-Mart clothes much
>longer. Where *will* they get anything to wear? :-)
----------
How 'bout Sears 'n Rareback, or Monkey Wards?
Mike D.
Gene Ward Smith
>Gosh, David, I just thought it was a matter of courtesy based on a
>discussion coming to a common agreement. You know, sort of like not
>posting the latest Aryan Nation news releases to soc.culture.jewish or
>soc.culture.african-american.
I doubt if there is likely to be a consensus on this issue. My own
opinion is that the really nasty stuff has nothing to do with phobe
alerts nor even the occasional phobes. It is the way we keep sticking
the shiv into each other around here. Given that we do *that*, why
worry about phobe alerts?
--
Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/CICMA/Concordia University
gsm...@cs.concordia.ca
Jess Anderson
In article <45...@daily-planet.concordia.ca>
gsm...@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>I doubt if there is likely to be a consensus on this issue.
>My own opinion is that the really nasty stuff has nothing to
>do with phobe alerts nor even the occasional phobes. It is
>the way we keep sticking the shiv into each other around
>here. Given that we do *that*, why worry about phobe alerts?
I think there is a very big difference between what you call
sticking it to each other and the impetus behind the
articles in question.
Our exchanges here are analogous to the theological debates
among the various Jewish sects, whereas the aim of the
phobes is analogous to the Holocaust.
Our arguments are just that, whereas the phobes want us
quite literally not to exist, all of us, not matter who we
are or what we think.
Even some of those we count on to be decent enough not to
want us literally to die would be quite content for us to be
second-class citizens, unable to enjoy the rights they
enjoy.
The point that our internal differences sometimes work
against our own interests I would not dispute. But to
equate that to the threat phobes pose to our integrity,
peace, and security is, I believe, seriously misguided. And
to suggest that given our differences, such as they are, we
should relax our vigilance or concern with phobes, is in my
view a disservice to ourselves.
Solidarity does not consist of papering over the chasms
indicated by our debates; it consists of agreeing who the
enemy is.
Mara Chibnik
In article <1280@dosbears> d...@dosbears.uucp writes:
>>Not to put *words* in your mouth, but Shirley you meant relevant, not
>>irrelevant.
>Shirley you meant "regardless"
I would like Shirley's email address. Can anyone oblige?
And can anyone tell me why s/he doesn't show up in Jimmy's
statistics? As "most frequent vocative" or some such?
Or is this just an apostrophe?
--
Mara Chibnik
ma...@panix.com Life is too important to be taken seriously.
John Dorrance
> If you want my business back, I must hear from you that you have
>agreed to fund the Boy Scouts again.
>If you want me to consider Toyota automobiles, I must
>hear from you that you have agreed to the terms for securing
>my business.
> If Toyota wants my business, I must hear from Toyota that they
>have agreed to the terms for securing my business.
Jesus. Has the 'unconditional love' clause been removed since the last
time I perused a Bible? :/
--
John Dorrance ** Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico ** tha...@odin.unomaha.edu
I always thought of you as my brick wall
Built like an angel, six feet tall.