motss.con reflections, and the passage of time

Robert S. Coren

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Jul 1, 2009, 12:26:08 PM7/1/09

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I have no intention of posting a detailed .con report, here or
elsewhere, but I've been thinking about what this con (and indeed, the
last several) suggest about what I think of as the changing
demographic of soc.motss.

The simple fact is, of course, that those of us who have been to lots
of cons are older than we were when we started going (big surprise,
eh?); and thus I noted that, in discussing what we might do in and
around Portland, places such as Rooster Rock and Bagby Hot Springs
were never suggested, and even hot gay night spots got the barest
mention.

This put me in mind of some discussion prior to (I think) the
DC .con, in which somebody mentioned a concern that it might be nothing
but YAMMFF[1]. Of course the cons were never just that, but the
reports from the early and middle 90s did tend to highlight that
aspect (and there were also FFFF aspects, of course, but the men did
tend to dominate, as men tend to do).

These days, the partner-swapping and short- or long-term hookups seem
to have disappeared (or, if not, people are a *lot* more discreet
about it than they used to be). I take it as a sign of my own
advancing age that, over this past weekend, I made no attempt to jump
the bones of, say, {PersonX} or {PersonY}, but rather observed them
with a combination of mild lust and wistfulness.

This still leaves us with wonderful food and drink, enjoying the
various tourist and other attractions of the locale, and, of course,
the camaraderie and delight in each other's company that has always
been the main point of the cons. Which is quite enough to make for a
fabulous weekend, which this indeed was.

Thanks to David, Chuk, and Kathryn for organizing and managing this
delightful occasion, and to all other attendees for being yourselves
and being lots of fun (which are of course the same thing).

[1] Yet Another Male-Male Fuck-Fest, for those who need a gloss.
--
---Robert Coren (co...@panix.com)------------------------------------
"I am FAGGOT, Lord of the flames! Feel my wrath!" -- Kaz Underworld

Mike Jankulak

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Jul 1, 2009, 1:53:41 PM7/1/09

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Robert S. Coren <co...@panix.com> wrote:
>I have no intention of posting a detailed .con report, here or
>elsewhere,

It occurred to me that my own .con report, were I to construct one,
would mostly be describing groupings and regroupings of people, as
opportunities for conversation developed and shifted. Who carpooled
together, who sat next to whom at dinner, who woke up in time for
a morning meal or stayed up late in the courtyard. I might entirely
forget to mention that I'd visited the art museum but I'd know who
walked there with me, and how the group splintered off and came back
together among the various exhibits.

I can't quite imagine that such a report would be remotely readable,
not even to the people who were present.

>The simple fact is, of course, that those of us who have been to lots
>of cons are older than we were when we started going (big surprise,
>eh?);

If we calculated correctly, I, though only a few months shy of 40,
was the second-youngest. And even then only by a few months.

The biggest change about this .con, to my mind, was the Facebook
element. I've never been very active on Facebook, but FB was *the*
place to be to catch pictures and comments. I didn't actually cut
short any in-person visits to run up to my laptop and check for FB
updates, but almost.

I still don't like Facebook, or Livejournal for that matter, as
social fora, they can't hold a candle to usenet as far as I've
experienced them. FB comments aren't even threaded, for heaven's
sake. On the other hand, I can think of more than one soc.motss
regular who isn't to be found in this newsgroup anymore, but who
has an active presence in one of these other places. So it's
difficult to dismiss these venues out of hand.

>Thanks to David, Chuk, and Kathryn for organizing and managing this
>delightful occasion, and to all other attendees for being yourselves
>and being lots of fun (which are of course the same thing).

I'm a little upset with the evil trio, for we all know that there's
nothing so enjoyable as complaining, and they've left us very little
to complain about. This meta-complaint sort of thing isn't nearly
as satisfying as the real thing.

jank+, altho kathryn's picked out a spot for my grave, which is nice

--
i'm your daytime waitress
at the taco tiki hut
i'm your daytime waitress
here's your stupid 7-up -- the B-52s

Michael Thomas

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Jul 1, 2009, 3:28:48 PM7/1/09

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co...@panix.com (Robert S. Coren) writes:
> These days, the partner-swapping and short- or long-term hookups seem
> to have disappeared (or, if not, people are a *lot* more discreet
> about it than they used to be). I take it as a sign of my own
> advancing age that, over this past weekend, I made no attempt to jump
> the bones of, say, {PersonX} or {PersonY}, but rather observed them
> with a combination of mild lust and wistfulness.

I don't suppose that Normandy combat vets do much hand to hand
these days while visiting either.
--
Michael Thomas (mi...@mtcc.com http://www.mtcc.com/~mike/)
shirikodama is best enjoyed through the anus

Kathryn

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Jul 1, 2009, 6:35:20 PM7/1/09

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On Jul 1, 10:53 am, jankp...@panix.com (Mike Jankulak) wrote:
>
> It occurred to me that my own .con report, were I to construct one,
> would mostly be describing groupings and regroupings of people, as
> opportunities for conversation developed and shifted. Who carpooled
> together, who sat next to whom at dinner, who woke up in time for
> a morning meal or stayed up late in the courtyard. I might entirely
> forget to mention that I'd visited the art museum but I'd know who
> walked there with me, and how the group splintered off and came back
> together among the various exhibits.
>
> I can't quite imagine that such a report would be remotely readable,
> not even to the people who were present.

Though that's how I think of it too, so it probably would. One thing
that helped was that the group was the perfect size. Large enough to
offer opportunities to mix and remix, small enough we could all spend
some time with everyone.

> I'm a little upset with the evil trio, for we all know that there's
> nothing so enjoyable as complaining, and they've left us very little
> to complain about.

That was indeed our evil plan. As much as I enjoy the kvetching of my
Cranky Cousins, I really didn't want to hear complaints about my
lovely city, with which I am besotted, as you can all tell.

> jank+, altho kathryn's picked out a spot for my grave, which is nice

I will come plant pansies on your grave and weep until a squirrel
scolds me

David Kaye

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Jul 1, 2009, 7:55:35 PM7/1/09

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On Jul 1, 9:26 am, co...@panix.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote:

> I noted that, in discussing what we might do in and
> around Portland, places such as Rooster Rock and Bagby Hot Springs
> were never suggested, and even hot gay night spots got the barest
> mention.

This is sad. Bagby is the epitome of a hot spring. I've traveled
across North America, all through our part of the Ring of Fire, and
have never found anything to match it. It's sad that people would
rather eat than go hiking and then enjoy hot tubbing in one of the
most beautiful spots in the world

As to gay night spots, well, they were always more fun to me than SF's
gay night spots. But there are so many other thing going on besides
gay venues that when I visit there I hardly ever venture into the gay
ones.

Michael Thomas

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Jul 1, 2009, 10:48:57 PM7/1/09

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David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> writes:
> On Jul 1, 9:26�am, co...@panix.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote:
>
>> I noted that, in discussing what we might do in and
>> around Portland, places such as Rooster Rock and Bagby Hot Springs
>> were never suggested, and even hot gay night spots got the barest
>> mention.
>
> This is sad. Bagby is the epitome of a hot spring. I've traveled
> across North America, all through our part of the Ring of Fire, and
> have never found anything to match it. It's sad that people would
> rather eat than go hiking and then enjoy hot tubbing in one of the
> most beautiful spots in the world

By all means, swear off eating and hike back and forth to
Bagby until you die. Should take about 6-10 years.

Kathryn

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Jul 2, 2009, 11:37:33 AM7/2/09

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On Jul 1, 4:55 pm, David Kaye <sfdavidka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> This is sad. Bagby is the epitome of a hot spring. I've traveled
> across North America, all through our part of the Ring of Fire, and
> have never found anything to match it. It's sad that people would
> rather eat than go hiking and then enjoy hot tubbing in one of the
> most beautiful spots in the world

David, we had a diverse group with multiple levels of mobility. Many
of us did in fact hike or do a long walk each day. But we wanted to be
together, not leave people who couldn't go to pine alone at the hotel.
Again, please do plan your own event. These disparaging comments about
an event you didn't attend are really extremely unwelcome.

Robert S. Coren

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Jul 2, 2009, 12:11:09 PM7/2/09

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In article <94d26e15-aa0b-416b...@h2g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

But easily ignored. (Especially since David's comment completely ignores the
context, and therefore completely misses the point, of my post.)
--
---Robert Coren (co...@panix.com)------------------------------------
"Trust me -- I'm fast when I know what I want."
--Will Parsons

Sammie

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Jul 2, 2009, 2:33:49 PM7/2/09

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On Jul 1, 1:53 pm, jankp...@panix.com (Mike Jankulak) wrote:
> Robert S. Coren <co...@panix.com> wrote:
>

> <..........>

> >The simple fact is, of course, that those of us who have been to lots
> >of cons are older than we were when we started going (big surprise,
> >eh?);
>
> If we calculated correctly, I, though only a few months shy of 40,
> was the second-youngest. And even then only by a few months.

A mere babe in the woods

>
> The biggest change about this .con, to my mind, was the Facebook
> element. I've never been very active on Facebook, but FB was *the*
> place to be to catch pictures and comments. I didn't actually cut
> short any in-person visits to run up to my laptop and check for FB
> updates, but almost.
>
> I still don't like Facebook, or Livejournal for that matter, as
> social fora, they can't hold a candle to usenet as far as I've
> experienced them. FB comments aren't even threaded, for heaven's
> sake. On the other hand, I can think of more than one soc.motss
> regular who isn't to be found in this newsgroup anymore, but who
> has an active presence in one of these other places. So it's
> difficult to dismiss these venues out of hand.

I know you are probably not talking about me, but I do have Facebook.
I am relatively new to it so can someone let me know what to search
for. I check it anyway to keep up with my neice who is in CA. I miss
you guys
(well, some of you) and it would nice to be able to see how yall are
without wading through here.
I guess I could just search for random members, but if there is an
official (FSVO) page......?

Sammie ,who is well and living in Statesboro, GA.

David W. Fenton

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Jul 2, 2009, 2:34:51 PM7/2/09

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co...@panix.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote in
news:h2im6t$nk4$1...@panix3.panix.com:

> David's comment completely ignores the
> context, and therefore completely misses the point

DAK seems to raised that kind of followup to an art form -- he never
posts anything that addresses the context and content of what he's
following up. His only context is in his head.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/

Jul 2, 2009, 4:49:40 PM7/2/09

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On Jul 2, 1:37 pm, Jed Davis <j...@panix.com> wrote:

>
> Is there anything you will not use as an excuse to be holier-than-thou?

I put up a post on the wonderful, exquisite Bagby Hot Springs,
possibly my favorite place on earth. If your self-esteem is so poor
that you can only think that what I wrote is a slight against you,
then you have more problems than you can solve without professional
help. Sorry about that, but I wasn't intending to slight anyone.

David Kaye

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Jul 2, 2009, 5:35:43 PM7/2/09

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On Jul 1, 9:26 am, co...@panix.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote:

> I have no intention of posting a detailed .con report, here or
> elsewhere, but I've been thinking about what this con (and indeed, the
> last several) suggest about what I think of as the changing
> demographic of soc.motss.

Old technologies tend to yield old users. If you think soc.motss is
skewing old, just consider that the average age of a ham radio
operator is 71. The average age of AM radio listeners is 60.

As for myself, not being one to particularly like aging, I try to keep
myself as fresh and viable as possible. It gives me shivers to see
the tour buses let out in SF and a bunch of elderly folks getting off,
the women wearing their pastel pantsuits, the men their fishing hats,
looking around, snapping photos, buying something to eat, then getting
back on the bus. I swore long ago I'd never want to be one of those
people.

Actually, as a kid, my parents, being older, socialized a lot with
people like that, and I often went on trips with them. So, I've done
a lot of the "quaint village" tours of do-nothing towns (Solvang,
Buellton, Occidental, etc) with gift shops and restaurants and nothing
else to recommend them. I've climbed on and off the tour buses with
them. I decided at age 17 or whatever that that was enough for me.

When I was in my 20s I had a penpal (talk about old-school) who lived
in Walla Walla. He invited me for a visit. I arrived and was
astonished. The guy was mid-20s, but acted like he was in his 80s or
90s. Our tour of Walla Walla involved driving past the various
nursing homes where he had worked, and the various graveyards where
his various clients were buried. (He was a nurse.) The guy had
adapted the walk and talk and general demeanor of his deteriorating
patients. I was so spooked by him that I begged off staying overnight
with him and drove back to Portland as fast as I could.

This is not to say that I don't like people in their 60s-80s. In
fact, I have lots of them as freelance tech support customers. But
these are people who want to get out there an experience life and
learn about things (which is likely why they're on the Web to begin
with).

Two of my favorites are a guy who has written several books about
organizing the longshoremen and warehouse workers in the 1930s. He's
about 85 and he's always on deadline for a book or an article. He
lives in North Beach.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?ATH=Reg+Theriault

Another is a woman who was part of a group of 3 women who successfully
fought off the freeways in SF in the 1960s. Her group defied the
common pro-freeway mentality of the era, and I believe managed to be
the first group to ever successfully beat back state plans to build
freeways. I believe she is 84. She's on Facebook, LinkedIn,
ZoomInfo, etc. She is involved in political campaigns, etc.

But both these folks are vital. They get out and get around and stay
active in their communities. So, a person can get old and not go the
"quaint village tour" route.

Jack Hamilton

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Jul 2, 2009, 11:37:02 PM7/2/09

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I think we now have an Official Motto for the next .con!

Jack Hamilton

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Jul 2, 2009, 11:47:34 PM7/2/09

to

On Thu, 2 Jul 2009 14:35:43 -0700 (PDT), David Kaye
<sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Jul 1, 9:26�am, co...@panix.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote:
>
>> I have no intention of posting a detailed .con report, here or
>> elsewhere, but I've been thinking about what this con (and indeed, the
>> last several) suggest about what I think of as the changing
>> demographic of soc.motss.
>
>Old technologies tend to yield old users. If you think soc.motss is
>skewing old, just consider that the average age of a ham radio
>operator is 71.

Not for active operators in northern California, in my experience.

>The average age of AM radio listeners is 60.
>
>As for myself, not being one to particularly like aging, I try to keep
>myself as fresh and viable as possible. It gives me shivers to see
>the tour buses let out in SF and a bunch of elderly folks getting off,
>the women wearing their pastel pantsuits, the men their fishing hats,
>looking around, snapping photos, buying something to eat, then getting
>back on the bus. I swore long ago I'd never want to be one of those
>people.

They're getting out and seeing the world. Maybe not the way you want
them to, but they're not sitting at home. More power to them.

Robert S. Coren

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Jul 2, 2009, 11:53:27 PM7/2/09

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One detail I did want to mention about the con: How delightful it was
to finally meet the Mother of All the Burlinghams!
--
---Robert Coren (co...@panix.com)------------------------------------
"People in small towns have beliefs the way caves have bats."
--Ursula LeGuin, _Always Coming Home_

Kathryn

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Jul 3, 2009, 12:48:09 AM7/3/09

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On Jul 2, 1:44 pm, David Kaye <sfdavidka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 2, 8:37 am, Kathryn <pi...@pacifier.com> wrote:
>
> > Again, please do plan your own event. These disparaging comments about
> > an event you didn't attend are really extremely unwelcome.
>
> Mine was a GENERAL post to the readers at large to say that unless
> they do the hike from the end of the road to Bagby (literally over the
> river and through the woods) and enjoy the hot tubs they are missing
> out on one of THE most beautiful, refreshing, and enjoyable
> experiences on earth. I feel THAT strongly about it.

You have a tin ear for social interaction, David. None of us would
have any problem with you extolling the virtues of Bagby, and talking
about how you miss it, if you unhooked it from commentary about how we
misused our own time together. And I know you don't know us as
individuals, but we know each other quite well, and part of what we
know is that some of us could not physically do the hike you're
talking about. So it's a lovely topic for conversation, and a good
suggestion for future reference for people who can get there, but
wasn't in the running as a .con event this year. Our day trip this
year involved the gorge waterfalls. Can't do it all.

The activities are fun, but are really just a framework to hang the
real part of the .con on, which is to look at the beautiful faces of
the people we love, and see all too seldom. To hear their voices,
which we can then carry with us to hear in our mind's ear as we read
what they write online the rest of the year--or for years, if we can't
get to .cons often. That's what .cons are, these days.

Ken Rudolph

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Jul 3, 2009, 1:43:29 AM7/3/09

to

Kathryn wrote:
> On Jul 2, 1:44 pm, David Kaye <sfdavidka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 2, 8:37 am, Kathryn <pi...@pacifier.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Again, please do plan your own event. These disparaging comments about
>>> an event you didn't attend are really extremely unwelcome.
>> Mine was a GENERAL post to the readers at large to say that unless
>> they do the hike from the end of the road to Bagby (literally over the
>> river and through the woods) and enjoy the hot tubs they are missing
>> out on one of THE most beautiful, refreshing, and enjoyable
>> experiences on earth. I feel THAT strongly about it.
>
> You have a tin ear for social interaction, David. None of us would
> have any problem with you extolling the virtues of Bagby, and talking
> about how you miss it, if you unhooked it from commentary about how we
> misused our own time together. And I know you don't know us as
> individuals, but we know each other quite well, and part of what we
> know is that some of us could not physically do the hike you're
> talking about. So it's a lovely topic for conversation, and a good
> suggestion for future reference for people who can get there, but
> wasn't in the running as a .con event this year. Our day trip this
> year involved the gorge waterfalls. Can't do it all.

That reminds me: back in 2006 there was a really nice little indie
film called "Old Joy" which was about two guys hiking to Bagby Hot
Springs. I just looked at my review of the film and found this
quote: "I think I'm going to try to search out Bagby Hot Springs
before I get too old to hike in."

Review at: http://kenru.net/movies/2006_siff_journal.html#OLD_JOY

--Ken Rudolph

David Kaye

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Jul 3, 2009, 2:00:42 AM7/3/09

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On Jul 2, 9:48 pm, Kathryn <pi...@pacifier.com> wrote:

> None of us would
> have any problem with you extolling the virtues of Bagby, and talking
> about how you miss it, if you unhooked it from commentary about how we
> misused our own time together.

And had anyone else made such a comment you'd have just shrugged and
moved on. I thought the whole idea of having a moving motss.con was
to explore different communities. Otherwise, why not just hold it in
a central, convenient hub like Kansas City or Atlanta each time?

> [....] some of us could not physically do the hike you're

> talking about. So it's a lovely topic for conversation, and a good
> suggestion for future reference for people who can get there, but
> wasn't in the running as a .con event this year. Our day trip this
> year involved the gorge waterfalls. Can't do it all.

Remember that I didn't bring up Bagby. It was brought up by Robert S.
Coren at the top of this thread. He remarked that Bagby wasn't
selected and I hooked onto that because, as I've said, I think Bagby
is heaven on earth. As to physically doing the hike, well, all I can
say is that it's possible to do it if one has physical difficulties,
but it takes awhile. My friend Jeff did it with one leg and
crutches. It's a bit of a bear to get over the bridge, but he made it
just fine, so it's doable, just a big challenge.

Whatever, just keep Bagby in mind for future reference. That's all.

> The activities are fun, but are really just a framework to hang the
> real part of the .con on, which is to look at the beautiful faces of
> the people we love, and see all too seldom.

Well, seeing the photos it appears that it's a happy bunch, despite
the stuff I read here.

Kathryn

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Jul 3, 2009, 3:07:53 AM7/3/09

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On Jul 2, 11:00 pm, David Kaye <sfdavidka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 2, 9:48 pm, Kathryn <pi...@pacifier.com> wrote:
>
> > None of us would
> > have any problem with you extolling the virtues of Bagby, and talking
> > about how you miss it, if you unhooked it from commentary about how we
> > misused our own time together.
>
> And had anyone else made such a comment you'd have just shrugged and
> moved on. I thought the whole idea of having a moving motss.con was
> to explore different communities. Otherwise, why not just hold it in
> a central, convenient hub like Kansas City or Atlanta each time?

You really don't understand how your comments read at all. I'm
actually much less likely to respond to you on much of anything, given
your history. I took a shot at patience and communication. How people
respond to you is of course partly what you've said in the present,
and partly from the memories of past encounters. But any number of
people have managed to come in from the "disaffected" cold to the warm
and prickly climes of motssdom. (Like a rash!)

We may get to the fully sedentary, central .con yet. We are already
scheming of an Edgefield.con in 10 years or so, when all we want to do
is put our feet up.

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Jul 3, 2009, 11:59:55 AM7/3/09

to

In article <a96a994a-1094-4c86...@s1g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,

Kathryn <pi...@pacifier.com> wrote:
>
>The activities are fun, but are really just a framework to hang the
>real part of the .con on, which is to look at the beautiful faces of
>the people we love, and see all too seldom. To hear their voices,
>which we can then carry with us to hear in our mind's ear as we read
>what they write online the rest of the year--or for years, if we can't
>get to .cons often. That's what .cons are, these days.

Something I realize I didn't emphasize as much as I intended in my
original post is that that's what they *always* were, along with an
opportunity to attach faces and voices to the names of people one had
not previously met. The sexual aspect was a bonus (for those who found
it to be so).

--
---Robert Coren (co...@panix.com)------------------------------------
"Compared to my lover, toilet paper looks trivial, but I have
no intention of giving it up."
--John Whiteside

Tim McDaniel

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Jul 3, 2009, 7:08:51 PM7/3/09

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In article <b4423eaa-d487-408f...@h2g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

*Plant* pansies? Invite those lads over to your place for drinks and
memories of the Dear Departed.

Tim (and send the twinks my way, thx) McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

Michael Palmer

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Jul 3, 2009, 10:51:04 PM7/3/09

to

Haven't you heard the news? A *fabulous* new retro heavy metal rock
band, "Gluttonous Venality", has just announced its "Gay For Pay"
world tour.

M I understand there's a venue in London with 50 dates available P

--
Michael Palmer
Claremont, California
mpa...@panix.com

Kathryn

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Jul 3, 2009, 11:41:48 PM7/3/09

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On Jul 3, 4:08 pm, t...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
> Kathryn <pi...@pacifier.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 1, 10:53 am, jankp...@panix.com (Mike Jankulak) wrote:
> >> jank+, altho kathryn's picked out a spot for my grave, which is
> >> nice
>
> >I will come plant pansies on your grave and weep until a squirrel
> >scolds me
>
> *Plant* pansies? Invite those lads over to your place for drinks and
> memories of the Dear Departed.

He's going to want them in the afterlife

Rod Williams

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Jul 4, 2009, 1:06:07 PM7/4/09

to

Mike Jankulak:

> > >> jank+, altho kathryn's picked out a spot for my grave, which is
> > >> nice

Kathryn:

> > >I will come plant pansies on your grave and weep until a squirrel
> > >scolds me

Tim McDaniel:

> > *Plant* pansies? Invite those lads over to your place for drinks and
> > memories of the Dear Departed.

Kathryn:

> He's going to want them in the afterlife

Pansies, lads, drinks, memories? There might be something to this
afterlife notion after all...