Do you tip the barber?
Summer
"hairdresser." I have always tipped the hairdresser for the cut he or
she gave me, and on my first trip to the new barber (self-titled, male
clients only, no muss no fuss), I tipped him appropriately, as well.
Upon hearing that, a friend told me that it was not necessary and could
even be inappropriate to tip a barber. He's from the east coast, old
school barbers you know, so I don't know if it's a regional thing or a
(time-)period thing, so I'm asking you all.
Do you tip the barber? He gives great...hair. :)
Thanks.
Frank McQuarry
Summer wrote:
> Do you tip the barber? He gives great...hair. :)
Yes. I usually go to cheap haircut places, (about $10 to $15 for a
haircut), and I tip from $3 to $5 dollars usually.
Donald Baxter
though her husband owns the shop).
Donald Baxter
"Summer" <susit...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19b57765...@news-50.giganews.com...
David Kaye
>
> Do you tip the barber? He gives great...hair. :)
I've tipped barbers and stylists all my life as far as I can remember.
To me, a barber is to a hair stylist as a DDS is to a DMD (both are
dentists). That is, different approach; same end result.
I once had a hair stylist tip *me*. I'd go into it, but Michael would
get queasy.
Richard Jasper
Ditto.
rpj
DRS
Why?
And I'm not being facetious. Tipping a waitron I can almost understand but
a barber??? If the haircut costs $10 then it costs $10. Why would you give
him more? If he wants more he can raise the price.
--
"I am gentle and wise, even inside my scrotum."
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030705.rvmaga/BNStory/Entertainment/
Ken Rudolph
> Frank McQuarry <fmcq...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> 3F4BECC4...@earthlink.net
>
>>Summer wrote:
>>
>>>Do you tip the barber? He gives great...hair. :)
>>
>>Yes. I usually go to cheap haircut places, (about $10 to $15 for a
>>haircut), and I tip from $3 to $5 dollars usually.
>
>
> Why?
>
> And I'm not being facetious. Tipping a waitron I can almost understand but
> a barber??? If the haircut costs $10 then it costs $10. Why would you give
> him more? If he wants more he can raise the price.
Many barbers are employees, give a large proportion of their fees to
the establishment and depend on tips to make a living wage. I'm
generally not a big tipper; but I do tip 10% to my barber, even if
he's the proprietor. It does seem to be the custom in this area.
--Ken Rudolph
Patti Beadles
DRS <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> wrote:
>Why?
>And I'm not being facetious. Tipping a waitron I can almost understand but
>a barber??? If the haircut costs $10 then it costs $10. Why would you give
>him more? If he wants more he can raise the price.
Why tip the waiter? If the meal costs $15 it costs $15. If the
restaurant wants to pay the waiter more, they can raise the price.
The same argument holds true for any situation where tipping is
customary.
Nonetheless, there are certain professions wherein the custom is
to charge a lower price and expect that employees will be compensated
partially through tips. Offhand I can think of waiters, hairdressers
(and barbers, apparently), valets, bellmen, poker and other casino
dealers and staff, taxi drivers, hotel maids, skycaps, but I'm sure
there are more.
I know that there's debate in the poker world about this-- do tips
encourage better dealing? The answer is entirely unclear.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles |
pat...@gammon.com | Never ever argue with a clown.
http://www.gammon.com/ |
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | The clown ALWAYS wins.
Frank McQuarry
DRS wrote:
>
> Frank McQuarry <fmcq...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> 3F4BECC4...@earthlink.net
> > Summer wrote:
> >> Do you tip the barber? He gives great...hair. :)
> >
> > Yes. I usually go to cheap haircut places, (about $10 to $15 for a
> > haircut), and I tip from $3 to $5 dollars usually.
>
> Why?
>
> And I'm not being facetious. Tipping a waitron I can almost understand but
> a barber??? If the haircut costs $10 then it costs $10. Why would you give
> him more? If he wants more he can raise the price.
Having worked for many years in the service industry here, I can tell
that we often cringe when getting Australian or European customers,
especially when we are hard up for cash.
The answer is because it is customary to tip for these services in the
US and Canada. Waitrons, cab drivers, doormen, and other service
industry jobs don't make a very large hourly wage, and depend on tips to
make up the difference. The wage of barbers and hair dressers depends
largely on the house they are working for and the employees reputation.
RobertVB
> Frank McQuarry <fmcq...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> 3F4BECC4...@earthlink.net
> > Summer wrote:
> >> Do you tip the barber? He gives great...hair. :)
> >
> > Yes. I usually go to cheap haircut places, (about $10 to $15 for a
> > haircut), and I tip from $3 to $5 dollars usually.
>
> Why?
>
> And I'm not being facetious. Tipping a waitron I can almost understand but
> a barber??? If the haircut costs $10 then it costs $10. Why would you give
> him more? If he wants more he can raise the price.
One of those father-son instructional things like tying a tie, dressing
to the left was also his telling me you ALWAYS tip your barber. I tip
about $5 like the rest.
Why? Probably mostly because it is a service more than a product, and
its customary to reward services with tips, especially if it might
include service provider optional things - the moustache trim, the neck
massage, prompt work, etc.
My barber is 83 years old still charges $10 bucks but I give him $15.
The primary reason I go to him is gest you in the chair and gets the
job done - stylists waste my time with chit chat and take 30 minutes to
do what Mike will do it in 10. (plus he is quite a bit cheaper - I can
afford to tip ;)
Les Farnell
> > > haircut), and I tip from $3 to $5 dollars usually.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > And I'm not being facetious. Tipping a waitron I can almost understand but
> > a barber??? If the haircut costs $10 then it costs $10. Why would you give
> > him more? If he wants more he can raise the price.
>
> Having worked for many years in the service industry here, I can tell
> that we often cringe when getting Australian or European customers,
> especially when we are hard up for cash.
>
> The answer is because it is customary to tip for these services in the
> US and Canada. Waitrons, cab drivers, doormen, and other service
> industry jobs don't make a very large hourly wage, and depend on tips to
> make up the difference. The wage of barbers and hair dressers depends
> largely on the house they are working for and the employees reputation.
This is one reason why North America is a distinctly alien place to me.
The going rate for the barber in these parts is max 10 AUD, meaning
about
6-7 USD, and I've never heard of anyone tipping. I do think that's low -
especially in contrast to the endodontrist I've been visiting recently -
but I'm with DRS. If he wants more he can raise the price. If people
don't make a very large hourly wage, then raise the wage.
LF
Tim Wilson
> This is one reason why North America is a distinctly alien place to me.
> The going rate for the barber in these parts is max 10 AUD, meaning
> about
> 6-7 USD, and I've never heard of anyone tipping. I do think that's low -
> especially in contrast to the endodontrist I've been visiting recently -
> but I'm with DRS. If he wants more he can raise the price. If people
> don't make a very large hourly wage, then raise the wage.
Hasn't it ever occurred to you that one of the joys of the world is the
different ways that different people "solve" (FSVO) the same problems by
different means.
Just because that's the way it would be done where you live doesn't mean
that other people should do it that way. If it was all done the same
way world wide, then there wouldn't be very much interesting about travel.
Another idea: Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean it's
not widespread. Likely neither you nor I are as wordly or as
knowledgable as we'd each like to think.
--
Tim Wilson, Daytona Beach, Florida, USA
home: http://home.cfl.rr.com/mackandtim/
blog: http://timatollah.blogspot.com/
mail: meano...@netscape.net
Frank McQuarry
You write as though "he" were a single person, and most of the time "he"
is only an employee and has no control over price. If you ever find
yourself living in the US, you will also find plenty of people who share
your attitude and refuse to tip. (I've known foreigners who tip this
way in the US even though they know the customs. It looks so much like
an equivalent to the Ugly American sort of thing to me.) It's generally
true that the people who get tips are not making a living wage. It only
becomes a living wage when tips are added to the base wage.
Personally, I think we in the US would do a lot better to cut our
defense spending, tax the fuck out of the rich (or even just make them
pay their fair share of taxes), and pass the windfall to the sorts of
goods and services the rest of the Western world gets from their
governments. That barber, (and most of the tip dependent professions)
is probably not getting health care and retirement benefits from their
employer to any degree that makes it noticeable to the employees. But
then, that's just my inner communist talking. (What I mean to say is
that there is a lot more wrong with the division of wealth in this
country than just our tipping habits. (And it recent years, it hasn't
been getting any prettier.))
Michael Thomas
> This is one reason why North America is a distinctly alien place to me.
> The going rate for the barber in these parts is max 10 AUD, meaning
> about
> 6-7 USD, and I've never heard of anyone tipping. I do think that's low -
> especially in contrast to the endodontrist I've been visiting recently -
> but I'm with DRS. If he wants more he can raise the price. If people
> don't make a very large hourly wage, then raise the wage.
In the mean time, be sure to be an asshole as you're
teaching the locals how stupid their customs are.
Not to mention that the quality of service outside of the
US is uniformly crap.
--
Michael Thomas (mi...@mtcc.com http://www.mtcc.com/~mike/)
It's ironic: these old people are being kept alive by the
organs of the people they run over.
*Chief Wiggums* <-- Hi Alex!
kokomoN...@hotmail.com
>
> In article <bij2po$d7$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
> DRS <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> wrote:
> >Why?
>
> >And I'm not being facetious. Tipping a waitron I can almost understand but
> >a barber??? If the haircut costs $10 then it costs $10. Why would you give
> >him more? If he wants more he can raise the price.
>
> Why tip the waiter? If the meal costs $15 it costs $15. If the
> restaurant wants to pay the waiter more, they can raise the price.
> The same argument holds true for any situation where tipping is
> customary.
Waiters in the US are paid barely over $2.00 hourly wage, so they depend
almost entirely on tips to make a living. Barbers/hairdressers normally
make more non-tip wage than that, though they are certainly not
particularly well paid im most cases.
Brian Vogel
> Patti Beadles wrote:
>
>>In article <bij2po$d7$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
>>DRS <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>Why?
>>
>>>And I'm not being facetious. Tipping a waitron I can almost understand but
>>>a barber??? If the haircut costs $10 then it costs $10. Why would you give
>>>him more? If he wants more he can raise the price.
>>
>>Why tip the waiter? If the meal costs $15 it costs $15. If the
>>restaurant wants to pay the waiter more, they can raise the price.
>>The same argument holds true for any situation where tipping is
>>customary.
>
>
> Waiters in the US are paid barely over $2.00 hourly wage, so they depend
> almost entirely on tips to make a living.
True. Been there, done that.
> Barbers/hairdressers normally
> make more non-tip wage than that, though they are certainly not
> particularly well paid im most cases.
Yes, their wage is higher, but the time versus
"throughput" is lower, much lower. I think you'd also
be shocked what the percentage take of salon owners is
(or, if not percentage, "chair rent").
Brian
Kevin Michael Vail
wrote:
> Waiters in the US are paid barely over $2.00 hourly wage, so they depend
> almost entirely on tips to make a living. Barbers/hairdressers normally
> make more non-tip wage than that, though they are certainly not
> particularly well paid im most cases.
Not only that, but taxes are withheld on a percentage of their sales, on
the assumption that people will tip. So some waitpeople don't even take
home a paycheck; they depend entirely on tips for money in their pocket.
--
Kevin Michael Vail | Dogbert: That's circular reasoning.
ke...@vaildc.net | Dilbert: I prefer to think of it as no loose ends.
http://www.vaildc.net/kevin/
paulx
>
> One of those father-son instructional things like tying a tie, dressing
> to the left was also his telling me you ALWAYS tip your barber. I tip
> about $5 like the rest.
Yes, one of those "life's lessons".
>
> Why? Probably mostly because it is a service more than a product, and
> its customary to reward services with tips, especially if it might
> include service provider optional things - the moustache trim, the neck
> massage, prompt work, etc.
I think this also works in restaurants. You tip a waiter/waitress well,
esp.
for very good service, they're likely to remember you if you're a pretty
regular customer, therefore getting "special" service next time. They'll
do
their very best for you to keep bringing you back. And the customer is
happy with great service.
>
> My barber is 83 years old still charges $10 bucks but I give him $15.
> The primary reason I go to him is gest you in the chair and gets the
> job done - stylists waste my time with chit chat and take 30 minutes to
> do what Mike will do it in 10. (plus he is quite a bit cheaper - I can
> afford to tip ;)
--
To send e-mail, take out the 3 and the 4
David Kaye
> Waiters in the US are paid barely over $2.00 hourly wage, so they depend
> almost entirely on tips to make a living.
This is only true in those backward states where workers haven't
pressured the government to raise the wages. In California, Oregon,
and other enlightened states, a restaurant cannot pay below minimum
wage, no matter what the tips are.
> Barbers/hairdressers normally
> make more non-tip wage than that, though they are certainly not
> particularly well paid im most cases.
Tipping is based on etiquette rules of personal service. If someone
does you a personal service, you tip. Therefore, you tip your barber,
your waiter, your bellhop, your maid, etc. Or, you're an oaf. The
choice is yours.
David Kaye
> And I'm not being facetious. Tipping a waitron I can almost understand but
> a barber??? If the haircut costs $10 then it costs $10. Why would you give
> him more? If he wants more he can raise the price.
It's funny that I used resent tipping. When I ate at the counter of a
restaurant I didn't tip at all, because I was told erroneously that
the person working the counter "made enough money anyway". Of course,
I was probably 20 at the time. Then I woke up.
I've found that the people who most resent tipping are the people who
have the least-developed social skills, and are not at *all* fun to be
around. Whenever I go on a date or other social engagement and I see
the other person being a tightwad in their tipping, I drop any further
involvement with them. I have no use for such cheapskates. They are
energy sucks.
David Kaye
> This is one reason why North America is a distinctly alien place to me.
> The going rate for the barber in these parts is max 10 AUD, meaning
> about 6-7 USD, and I've never heard of anyone tipping.
You probably live among social misfits and awkward oafs. Tipping is
customary in the U.S. and Canada for personal services. Go write to
Miss Manners (longtime social etiquette maven Judith Martin) and ask
her about tipping.
Myself, I prefer not to associate with tightwads who won't tip because
they're simply no fun to be with. They're sour people who criticize
everything and everybody.
Marina Muilwijk
news:v7vfsih...@fasolt.mtcc.com:
> Not to mention that the quality of service outside of the
> US is uniformly crap.
That's OK, we don't know any better.
Marina
Mike Jankulak
>Another idea: Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean it's
>not widespread.
Exactly! So... what's a "barber," anyway?
--
"Your Uncle Albert and I had a whirlpool romance,"
Aunt Ruthie tells me. Then she pauses. "Is that
the word I mean?" -- Patricia Volk
RobertVB
Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Plus I find its just isn't worth the effort anymore to slip the
appropriate tip difference onto the table. I just drop it on at my
place as I leave and let them either learn or get pissed - eitherway
the problem is solved.
I won't 'not tip' unless the service has been truly sub-standard.
DRS
6b49c602.03082...@posting.google.com
[...]
> Tipping is based on etiquette rules of personal service. If someone
> does you a personal service, you tip. Therefore, you tip your barber,
> your waiter, your bellhop, your maid, etc. Or, you're an oaf. The
> choice is yours.
That's an extremely parochial way of looking at it. Where I come from
service is included in the price. Therefore I don't tip because that would
mean I'm paying twice for the same service.
DRS
WTc3b.3201$7M6.2...@twister.tampabay.rr.com
> Les Farnell wrote:
>> This is one reason why North America is a distinctly alien place to
>> me. The going rate for the barber in these parts is max 10 AUD,
>> meaning about
>> 6-7 USD, and I've never heard of anyone tipping. I do think that's
>> low - especially in contrast to the endodontrist I've been visiting
>> recently - but I'm with DRS. If he wants more he can raise the
>> price. If people don't make a very large hourly wage, then raise the
>> wage.
>
> Hasn't it ever occurred to you that one of the joys of the world is
> the different ways that different people "solve" (FSVO) the same
> problems by different means.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I find the business of having someone standing
with their hand held out openly expecting me to put cash in it demeaning for
them and embarassing and often inconvenient for myself. They're forcing me
into a position I really don't want to be in.
DRS
v7vfsih...@fasolt.mtcc.com
> Les Farnell <le...@maths.usyd.edu.au> writes:
>> This is one reason why North America is a distinctly alien place to
>> me. The going rate for the barber in these parts is max 10 AUD,
>> meaning about
>> 6-7 USD, and I've never heard of anyone tipping. I do think that's
>> low - especially in contrast to the endodontrist I've been visiting
>> recently - but I'm with DRS. If he wants more he can raise the
>> price. If people don't make a very large hourly wage, then raise the
>> wage.
>
> In the mean time, be sure to be an asshole as you're
> teaching the locals how stupid their customs are.
>
> Not to mention that the quality of service outside of the
> US is uniformly crap.
As is the quality of service inside the US, fool. Remember to get your
bonus points by pointing out how wrong it is to generalise when you cut and
paste your bilious reply.
DRS
>> This is one reason why North America is a distinctly alien place to
>> me. The going rate for the barber in these parts is max 10 AUD,
>> meaning about 6-7 USD, and I've never heard of anyone tipping.
>
> You probably live among social misfits and awkward oafs.
Just because he doesn't live in North America is no reason for you to abuse
him or the rest of us.
> Tipping is
> customary in the U.S. and Canada for personal services.
He doesn't live in the US or Canada.
> Go write to
> Miss Manners (longtime social etiquette maven Judith Martin) and ask
> her about tipping.
Better yet, you write and ask her about how you can stop being such a
reflexive arsehole by actually reading what people write before you respond.
> Myself, I prefer not to associate with tightwads who won't tip because
> they're simply no fun to be with. They're sour people who criticize
> everything and everybody.
Pot, meet kettle.
DRS
[...]
> It's funny that I used resent tipping. When I ate at the counter of a
> restaurant I didn't tip at all, because I was told erroneously that
> the person working the counter "made enough money anyway". Of course,
> I was probably 20 at the time. Then I woke up.
>
> I've found that the people who most resent tipping are the people who
> have the least-developed social skills, and are not at *all* fun to be
> around. Whenever I go on a date or other social engagement and I see
> the other person being a tightwad in their tipping, I drop any further
> involvement with them. I have no use for such cheapskates. They are
> energy sucks.
Don't come to my country, arsehole. You'd hate it and we'd hate you.
DRS
Lge3b.2162$xD2....@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com
> kokomoN...@hotmail.com wrote:
[...]
>> Barbers/hairdressers normally
>> make more non-tip wage than that, though they are certainly not
>> particularly well paid im most cases.
>
> Yes, their wage is higher, but the time versus
> "throughput" is lower, much lower. I think you'd also
> be shocked what the percentage take of salon owners is
> (or, if not percentage, "chair rent").
That makes sense (in a very *context*context*context* sort of way).
Michael Thomas
> > the different ways that different people "solve" (FSVO) the same
> > problems by different means.
>
> Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I find the business of having someone standing
> with their hand held out openly expecting me to put cash in it demeaning for
> them and embarassing and often inconvenient for myself. They're forcing me
> into a position I really don't want to be in.
You poor fucking thing. What were you saying to DAK about
not coming here, etc?
DRS
> "DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> writes:
>> Tim Wilson <meano...@netscape.net> wrote in message
>>> Hasn't it ever occurred to you that one of the joys of the world is
>>> the different ways that different people "solve" (FSVO) the same
>>> problems by different means.
>>
>> Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I find the business of having someone
>> standing with their hand held out openly expecting me to put cash in
>> it demeaning for them and embarassing and often inconvenient for
>> myself. They're forcing me into a position I really don't want to
>> be in.
>
> You poor fucking thing. What were you saying to DAK about
> not coming here, etc?
Chalk and cheese, dipshit.
Beautiful Flyaway
wrote this:
>Tim Wilson <meano...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>Another idea: Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean it's
>>not widespread.
>
>Exactly! So... what's a "barber," anyway?
One of those waxed green coats, innit?
--
Bess.
Present listening: Orthrelm, last night's gig (mad!)
Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
>>They're forcing me into a position I really don't want to be
>>in.
>
> In all due respect, that feeling could be more about you than
> about them.
Well, of course it is. Tipping introduces complexities into
transactions that are (in most parts of the word) simple commercial
transactions. They say how much something cost, and you pay.
Tipping requires learning quite a lot of social graces. When to tip,
when not to tip, how to tip, how much to tip. If you transgress
against these customs, you're considered either a fool or an asshole,
which can be rather nerve-racking. (Especially if you're a sensitive
soul like DRS and me.)
(I'm not saying that tipping is bad or anything. I'm just saying
that it's a complication.)
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
la...@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
Michael Thomas
> ande...@wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>
> >>They're forcing me into a position I really don't want to be
> >>in.
> >
> > In all due respect, that feeling could be more about you than
> > about them.
> Tipping requires learning quite a lot of social graces.
Which immediately disqualifies the DRSbot. No wonder it he
doesn't want to be forced.
David Kaye
> Plus I find its just isn't worth the effort anymore to slip the
> appropriate tip difference onto the table. I just drop it on at my
> place as I leave and let them either learn or get pissed - eitherway
> the problem is solved.
One wonders what sort of hostility you have that you treat service
workers like so much trash. I'm glad I don't harbor the kind of
hatred you appear to have.
As for my own tipping style, I prefer to HAND the tip to the server
and thank them for their service. They then thank me for the tip and
everyone's happy. And you can BET that I get treated well in
restaurants and bars. I don't typically tip more than 15%, but I
think the fact that I treat the server as an equal instead of as a
slave is why they respond positively to me.
David Kaye
> Just because he doesn't live in North America is no reason for you to abuse
> him or the rest of us.
I believe he was commenting about the difference between North America
and Europe and expressing disdain for the North American way of doing
things. No, that doesn't go over well with me, just as Americans
trying to tell Iraqis how to run their own country doesn't go over
well with me, either. Both cases are cultural imperialism: telling
people in other countries what they should and should not do,
irrespective of the cultural history that made the places different in
the first place.
>
> He doesn't live in the US or Canada.
But he was responding to a post about tipping here, not where he
lives.
RobertVB
> RobertVB <nos...@4me.com> wrote:
>
> > Plus I find its just isn't worth the effort anymore to slip the
> > appropriate tip difference onto the table. I just drop it on at my
> > place as I leave and let them either learn or get pissed - eitherway
> > the problem is solved.
>
> One wonders what sort of hostility you have that you treat service
> workers like so much trash.
What are you talking about? I was replying to the note about
cheapskates and talking about leaving the 'tip difference' for the
'service worker' so they wouldn't be short-changed. I don't understand
how you can consider that hostile.
> I'm glad I don't harbor the kind of hatred you appear to have.
I'm glad I'm not as quick to jump to conclusions.
>
> As for my own tipping style, I prefer to HAND the tip to the server
> and thank them for their service. They then thank me for the tip and
> everyone's happy. And you can BET that I get treated well in
> restaurants and bars. I don't typically tip more than 15%, but I
> think the fact that I treat the server as an equal instead of as a
> slave is why they respond positively to me.
Another cheapskate - 20% is pretty much the norm for good service
around here. :) Since I usually pay by credit card there isn't an
opportunity to hand them the tip.
Oh, and the guy I see each week who was leaving 5% or less now leaves a
decent tip even though he never once commented on my leaving extra tip
money at my place setting while leaving.
Frank McQuarry
David Kaye wrote:
> As for my own tipping style, I prefer to HAND the tip to the server
> and thank them for their service. They then thank me for the tip and
> everyone's happy.
Your patronization is *so* Noble.
> I don't typically tip more than 15%
And cheap.
Mike McKinley
>David Kaye wrote:
>
>
>>As for my own tipping style, I prefer to HAND the tip to the server
>>and thank them for their service. They then thank me for the tip and
>>everyone's happy.
>>
>>
>Your patronization is *so* Noble.
>
>
Is this a word?
>>I don't typically tip more than 15%
>>
>>
>And cheap.
>
>
I always tip 16%.
--
Ascetic by nature, they derive satisfaction from the bare simplicity of their lives and scorn the amenities which others would consider essential.
Sir Wilfred Thesiger
Frank McQuarry
Mike McKinley wrote:
>
> Frank McQuarry wrote:
>
> >David Kaye wrote:
> >
> >
> >>As for my own tipping style, I prefer to HAND the tip to the server
> >>and thank them for their service. They then thank me for the tip and
> >>everyone's happy.
> >>
> >>
> >Your patronization is *so* Noble.
> >
> >
> Is this a word?
Yes, "this" is a word.
> >>I don't typically tip more than 15%
> >>
> >>
> >And cheap.
> >
> >
>
> I always tip 16%.
Do they have to pull it from your cold white fingers.
Frank McQuarry
the artist formerly known as rzepelaa wrote:
>
> In article <3F4E6B05...@earthlink.net>, Frank McQuarry wrote:
> > David Kaye wrote:
> > > As for my own tipping style, I prefer to HAND the tip to the server
> > > and thank them for their service. They then thank me for the tip and
> > > everyone's happy.
>
> > Your patronization is *so* Noble.
>
> At one dump where I eat more meals than I should, the human
> traffic is such that I will not ever leave money on the table
> and walk out.
It's probably unnecessary to hand the waitron the tip, even in that
joint. You'd be surprised at how aware wait people are of the money left
on their tables, and how honest people can be in such a place. I've
worked in places like that. People don't often try to steal your tips.
Mike McKinley
>Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen:
>Tipping requires learning quite a lot of social graces. When
>to tip, when not to tip, how to tip, how much to tip. If you
>transgress against these customs, you're considered either a
>fool or an asshole, which can be rather nerve-racking.
>(Especially if you're a sensitive soul like DRS and me.)
>
>
>Seems to me being a sensitive soul would be an inducement to
>acquiring the requisite experience, aka social graces. I
>suppose individual experience varies widely, but it never
>seemed that hard to me. As for screwing up and being thought a
>fool or an asshole, that has happened so many times in so many
>contexts, some of them doubtless justified, that it's hardly
>worth being concerned about; the world does not end.
>
>
>
That is *such* a relief!
Frank McQuarry
the artist formerly known as rzepelaa wrote:
>
> In article <3F4E725E...@earthlink.net>, Frank McQuarry wrote:
>
> > It's probably unnecessary to hand the waitron the tip, even in that
> > joint.
>
> I'll reserve the right to disagree about the dump and
> what walks through there.
I have no problem with that.
Brian Vogel
And what, pray tell, is your "base tip percentage"?
Convention across most of the country has been 15% for
"basic service," 20% for "better than expected," and
25% to whatever you wish for "stellar."
I loved it when I was given a really large tip
for really good service, but never, ever, expected
more than 15% (and, God knows, there are plenty of
cheapskates who still believe that 10% is a great
tip, as well as plenty of stiffers).
Brian
Frank McQuarry
The customary 15% changed to %20 sometime in the 90s.
Tim Wilson
> As for screwing up and being thought a
> fool or an asshole, that has happened so many times in so many
> contexts, some of them doubtless justified, that it's hardly
> worth being concerned about; the world does not end.
>
--
Tim Wilson, Daytona Beach, Florida, USA
home: http://home.cfl.rr.com/mackandtim/
blog: http://timatollah.blogspot.com/
mail: meano...@netscape.net
Brian Kane
>Tipping is based on etiquette rules of personal service. If someone
>does you a personal service, you tip. Therefore, you tip your barber,
>your waiter, your bellhop, your maid, etc.
There are exceptions if you are being served by the owner
of the business you are patronizing, and that owner also
employs a staff.
--
Brian Kane (Washington, DC) | Sad-eyed baby I'm not that kind of girl
astroplace.com/brian.asp | When the dice stop rolling, there's no
>bri...@SPAMastroplace.com<| more to the game :::: Stephin Merritt
Brian Vogel
>
> Brian Vogel wrote:
>> And what, pray tell, is your "base tip percentage"?
>>Convention across most of the country has been 15% for
>>"basic service," 20% for "better than expected," and
>>25% to whatever you wish for "stellar."
>>
>> I loved it when I was given a really large tip
>>for really good service, but never, ever, expected
>>more than 15% (and, God knows, there are plenty of
>>cheapskates who still believe that 10% is a great
>>tip, as well as plenty of stiffers).
>
>
> The customary 15% changed to %20 sometime in the 90s.
Not according to any "official" reference
I can find, nor custom anywhere I've been in the
last 10 years. (Web research on tipping has
even revealed some who still talk of 10% being
adequate, but that's a small minority).
Brian
Kevin Michael Vail
Brian Kane <bri...@SPAMastroplace.com> wrote:
> [someone]:
> >Tipping is based on etiquette rules of personal service. If someone
> >does you a personal service, you tip. Therefore, you tip your barber,
> >your waiter, your bellhop, your maid, etc.
>
> There are exceptions if you are being served by the owner
> of the business you are patronizing, and that owner also
> employs a staff.
Although David always liked getting tips even though he was the owner of
the business. It didn't happen very often, though.
--
Kevin Michael Vail | Dogbert: That's circular reasoning.
ke...@vaildc.net | Dilbert: I prefer to think of it as no loose ends.
http://www.vaildc.net/kevin/
Frank McQuarry
Well then, you can feel fully justified in your parsimony, because you
couldn't find a web reference.
Tim Wilson
> In article <3F4E6B05...@earthlink.net>, Frank McQuarry wrote:
>
>>David Kaye wrote:
>>> I don't typically tip more than 15%
>
>>And cheap.
>
> Okay, I know this number. I'll join in.
Zappa sez: "And when you pay the bill // kindly leave a little tip //
and help the next poor sucker // on this one way trip".
Aside to The Artist: Your trip sounded cool, but I didn't know there was
a Margaritaville in Atlantic City. It figures, though.
Michael Sarris
> ande...@wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>
>
>>>They're forcing me into a position I really don't want to be
>>>in.
>>
>>In all due respect, that feeling could be more about you than
>>about them.
>
>
> Well, of course it is. Tipping introduces complexities into
> transactions that are (in most parts of the word) simple commercial
> transactions. They say how much something cost, and you pay.
>
> Tipping requires learning quite a lot of social graces. When to tip,
> when not to tip, how to tip, how much to tip. If you transgress
> against these customs, you're considered either a fool or an asshole,
> which can be rather nerve-racking. (Especially if you're a sensitive
> soul like DRS and me.)
Especially since I believe most people want to Do The Right Thing,
but they're not 100% sure if a tip in a given situation is
expected/desirable/necessary/enough/insulting.
> (I'm not saying that tipping is bad or anything. I'm just saying
> that it's a complication.)
Well, I'll say it's bad. I think it would be better if the
cost was the cost and that's that. Simple. No guessing games,
no having to keep track which industries require tips and
how much. Those who receive tips don't have to worry about
being stiffed, dealing with substandard wages, or all the
tax oddities.
That said, I always tip. I may not like the system as it stands,
but I won't penalize those who have to work within it.
Michael, with something on the tip of my tongue
--
Michael Sarris -- mund...@hotmail.com
"I want to kill this waitress
I can't believe this violence in mind
And is her power all in her club sandwich?"
-- Tori Amos, "The Waitress"
Michael Sarris
> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen:
>
>
>>to tip, when not to tip, how to tip, how much to tip. If you
>>transgress against these customs, you're considered either a
>>fool or an asshole, which can be rather nerve-racking.
>>(Especially if you're a sensitive soul like DRS and me.)
>
>
> acquiring the requisite experience, aka social graces.
I don't think of tipping as a social grace -- more like
a necessary evil. Apparently, Miss Manners agrees:
Michael, not the only one who thinks tipping is "unseemly"
--
Michael Sarris -- mund...@hotmail.com
"Well, God bless the day that you came along
And you tipped my apple cart."
-- Iris DeMent, "Hotter Than Mojave In My Heart"
Tim Wilson
> In article <3F4E725E...@earthlink.net>, Frank McQuarry wrote:
>
>
>>It's probably unnecessary to hand the waitron the tip, even in that
>>joint.
>
>
> I'll reserve the right to disagree about the dump and
> what walks through there.
Thread tie: I'm paranoid about leaving a signed credit-card tab out,
even in a nice place. I like to know that it's in the hands of the
server before I go.
Same, often at least, with the tip.
kokomoN...@hotmail.com
>
> kokomoN...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Waiters in the US are paid barely over $2.00 hourly wage, so they depend
> > almost entirely on tips to make a living.
>
> This is only true in those backward states where workers haven't
> pressured the government to raise the wages. In California, Oregon,
> and other enlightened states, a restaurant cannot pay below minimum
> wage, no matter what the tips are.
I mostly live in two "backward" states, Indiana and Florida, where the
base pay at most resaurants is that required by law, I think $2.13/hr or
something like that.
kokomoN...@hotmail.com
>
> In article <6b49c602.0308...@posting.google.com>,
> sfdavi...@yahoo.com (David Kaye) wrote:
>
> > I've found that the people who most resent tipping are the people who
> > have the least-developed social skills, and are not at *all* fun to be
> > around. Whenever I go on a date or other social engagement and I see
> > the other person being a tightwad in their tipping, I drop any further
> > involvement with them. I have no use for such cheapskates. They are
> > energy sucks.
>
> A friend told me a little tip:
>
> Watch the guy your dating at a restaurant. Notice how he treats the
> waiters and busboys. This is most likely how _you_ will be treated in 6
> months.
If your date treats a really cute waiter really well, does that mean he
will treat you as well in 6 months, even if you're not nearly as cute at
the waiter? Just a thought.
Cornelia Wyngaarden
vogelbp@SPAM_ICK.yahoo.com wrote on 8/28/03 3:28 PM:
15% for Breakfast & Lunch, 20% for Dinner.
Sometimes more depends what lingering mood the experience has left me.
I'm programmed to tip even for bad service which is always a subjective call
at best.
corry
Tim Wilson
> Tim Wilson:
>
>>Jess Anderson:
>
>
>>>As for screwing up and being thought a fool or an asshole, that
>>>has happened so many times in so many contexts, some of them
>>>doubtless justified, that it's hardly worth being concerned
>>>about; the world does not end.
>
>
>>You, too? I thought it was me.
>
>
> Piffle (tm). I've known you to be cross now and then, but never
> a fool.
>
Since I gave up being cross, being a fool is all I have left.
Brian Kane
>Brian Kane:
>>[someone]:
>>>Tipping is based on etiquette rules of personal service. If someone
>>>does you a personal service, you tip. Therefore, you tip your barber,
>>>your waiter, your bellhop, your maid, etc.
>>
>>There are exceptions if you are being served by the owner
>>of the business you are patronizing, and that owner also
>>employs a staff.
>
>Although David always liked getting tips even though he was the owner of
>the business. It didn't happen very often, though.
There are exceptions to the exceptions. :^)
Astroboy, not cheap.
Brian Vogel
And you, clearly, do feel fully justified
in your condescension. I'm not terribly sorry
that you find me parsimonious, since you are
apparently profligate when it comes to tipping.
Brian
Brian Vogel
> in article 5cv3b.3123$xD2...@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com, Brian Vogel at
> vogelbp@SPAM_ICK.yahoo.com wrote on 8/28/03 3:28 PM:
>
>
>>Frank McQuarry wrote:
>>
>>>Mike McKinley wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Frank McQuarry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>David Kaye wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>I don't typically tip more than 15%
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>And cheap.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I always tip 16%.
>>>
>>>
>>>Do they have to pull it from your cold white fingers.
>>
>>And what, pray tell, is your "base tip percentage"?
>>Convention across most of the country has been 15% for
>>"basic service," 20% for "better than expected," and
>>25% to whatever you wish for "stellar."
>>
>>I loved it when I was given a really large tip
>>for really good service, but never, ever, expected
>>more than 15% (and, God knows, there are plenty of
>>cheapskates who still believe that 10% is a great
>>tip, as well as plenty of stiffers).
>>
>
>
> 15% for Breakfast & Lunch, 20% for Dinner.
I'm consistent at 15% starting level for
acceptable service.
> Sometimes more depends what lingering mood the experience has left me.
This is what starts bumping the percentage up
(and, in truly horrific circumstances, down).
> I'm programmed to tip even for bad service which is always a subjective call
> at best.
I tend to, too, but at a percentage that is
10% or less. I don't think I've ever refused to
leave a tip at all, though I've been sorely
tempted a handful of times.
Brian
Jed Davis
> I tend to, too, but at a percentage that is
> 10% or less. I don't think I've ever refused to
> leave a tip at all, though I've been sorely
> tempted a handful of times.
The other thing is that if you just don't leave a tip, the waitron might
just think you forgot. Whereas if you instead leave a very small amount
of money, the point will definitely be gotten across.
--
Jed Davis <jld...@cs.oberlin.edu> Selling of self: http://panix.com/~jdev/rs/
<jd...@panix.com> PGP<-finger A098:903E:9B9A:DEF4:168F:AA09:BF07:807E:F336:59F9
\ "But life wasn't yes-no, on-off. Life was shades of gray, and rainbows
/\ not in the order of the spectrum." -- L. E. Modesitt, Jr., _Adiamante_
Brian Vogel
> Brian Vogel <vogelbp@SPAM_ICK.yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
>> I tend to, too, but at a percentage that is
>>10% or less. I don't think I've ever refused to
>>leave a tip at all, though I've been sorely
>>tempted a handful of times.
>
>
> The other thing is that if you just don't leave a tip, the waitron might
> just think you forgot. Whereas if you instead leave a very small amount
> of money, the point will definitely be gotten across.
Precisely. It makes clear that you know the custom
and the concept behind it. It also might make clear that
the waiter/waitress in question might want to brush up
on their "method".
Many people, after having waited tables themselves,
become complete pushovers when it comes to tips. They'll
tip any service, however poor. My experience made my
attitude anything but that one. If service is less than
adequate, a message needs to be sent. The same is true
if the service is great. Thus, my upper limits went
up significantly while my disinclination to tip below
the customary minimum vanished (both, of course, as
circumstances warrant).
Brian
Ruth Lawrence
"DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> wrote in message
news:bile5a$ksb$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> 6b49c602.03082...@posting.google.com
>
> [...]
>
> > Tipping is based on etiquette rules of personal service. If someone
> > does you a personal service, you tip. Therefore, you tip your barber,
> > choice is yours.
>
> That's an extremely parochial way of looking at it. Where I come from
> service is included in the price. Therefore I don't tip because that
would
> mean I'm paying twice for the same service.
I don't ordinarily tip, but it's for the reason that
feeding a dependence on tips rather than fair
wages is on the pathway to having a Working Poor.
As for differential tips- I'd regard it as degrading to
be expected to assess workers that way. For them
and me.
Mind you, I've no interest in patronising the kind
of venue where tipping is Appropriate here.
I both tip and 'forget' to bargain in, say, SE Asia.
r pinko dyke l
Ruth Lawrence
"Jess Anderson" <ande...@wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:billjp$96m$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu...
>
> DRS:
>
> >I find the business of having someone standing with their hand
> >held out openly expecting me to put cash in it
>
> I have done a lot of tipping in my 68 years, and I have yet
> to see that, actually, so I've not found myself ...
>
> >demeaning for them and embarassing and often inconvenient for
> >myself.
>
> ... in any such position. The customary situation may differ
> down there, of course.
It does. We have fixed minimum wages. Not
great, but a single person ought certainly to be
able to live on them without tips. They're significantly
better than welfare.
> What I *have* seen is that where a service has been performed,
> like valet parking or hotel staff bringing me food or fetching
> me a taxi, is that when I put out my hand with the tip in it,
> they extend their hand to take it. Tipping is routine in such
> cases, but I have never seen the handshake start from their
> side. Maybe it would if I didn't make it unnecessary.
>
> You leave money in an envelope for hotel housecleaning staff at
> the end of your stay, or cash on the table in a restaurant
> (though more usually a tip is added to the credit card chit).
> In taxis or at the barber, you give them enough bills to
> overpay and tell them how much change to give you.
This is what I've done when travelling in
Asia, only I don't ask for change.
What bothers me is the necessity of doing
so in a very, very, wealthy country.
> It seems to me a considerate, polite person does what they can
> to make tipping as smooth and uncomplicated as possible for all
> concerned. For the other person, it's for sure a hard way to
> make a decent living.
>
> >They're forcing me into a position I really don't want to be
> >in.
>
> In all due respect, that feeling could be more about you than
> about them.
Most Australians would feel this way, I'm thinking.
r l
David Kaye
> Although David always liked getting tips even though he was the owner of
> the business. It didn't happen very often, though.
If people wanted to tip me, fine. If I was working with others, I'd
give the tip to the others. If I was working alone I'd take the tip.
I don't refuse gifts because it's not polite to do so. If someone
offers me a cigarette or a Budweiser I'll accept them even though I
don't smoke or drink anything as hideous as Budweiser. I give them
away at the first opportunity.
Usually. I have an unopened can of Bud sitting in my car at this
moment. I think it's been there for 2 months. Some nice guy who
didn't speak much English gave it to me. I had meant to give it away,
but it rolled under the seat and I forgot about it until last night.
I hope it's still good (or as good as Budweiser can be at any rate).
At the moment I play music in the subways now that the software
industry appears to be drying up. I needed the break anyhow. I'm
bored to tears with software right now. Anyhow, I play music for
tips. If people wish to tip me, it's great. But, if they don't, I at
least hope for a smile.
David Kaye
>
> Don't come to my country, arsehole. You'd hate it and we'd hate you.
Australia's even a more racist country than the USA. I don't intend
on ever setting foot there.
David Kaye
> > A friend told me a little tip:
> > Watch the guy your dating at a restaurant. Notice how he treats the
> > waiters and busboys. This is most likely how _you_ will be treated in 6
> > months.
Hi Michael! Long time, no see! It's funny that Feather from the
Atlas and I were talking about you the other day. Remember the time
you had Jeanie announce during a Gonif's show that I was looking for a
date? We had a good laugh over that one.
I agree with the tip. Another tip is to see how the date treats your
pet.
Marina Muilwijk
news:bilql0$c0q$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu:
>
> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen:
>
>>Tipping requires learning quite a lot of social graces. When
>>to tip, when not to tip, how to tip, how much to tip. If you
>>transgress against these customs, you're considered either a
>>fool or an asshole, which can be rather nerve-racking.
>>(Especially if you're a sensitive soul like DRS and me.)
>
> Seems to me being a sensitive soul would be an inducement to
> acquiring the requisite experience, aka social graces. I
> suppose individual experience varies widely, but it never
> seemed that hard to me.
If you're from a part of the world where tipping is unusual, it takes
time to get the necessary experience. Especially when your time in a
"tipping" culture is limited to a few weeks a year.
During my visits to the US, it happens quite often that I don't realise
until later that perhaps I should have left a tip. Friends don't always
remind me and I don't do it automatically.
Marina
xym...@suds.com
<mund...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:
>> (I'm not saying that tipping is bad or anything. I'm just saying
>> that it's a complication.)
>
>Well, I'll say it's bad. I think it would be better if the
>cost was the cost and that's that. Simple. No guessing games,
>no having to keep track which industries require tips and
>how much. Those who receive tips don't have to worry about
>being stiffed, dealing with substandard wages, or all the
>tax oddities.
Oh, no, the Republicans wouldn't like such a simple straighforward
*FAIR* system (actually, "fair" would mean that minimum wage would be
based on true living costs, not some stupid arbitrary outdated
figure); this method seems to parallel their preference for charity
doled out by Christian organizations rather than social services
administered by government organizations.
>That said, I always tip. I may not like the system as it stands,
>but I won't penalize those who have to work within it.
Me, too.
Katie, whose xymergy account was killed and now has to reconfigure the
e-mail addy on the newsreader, but can't be bothered right now
Mike McKinley
>The customary 15% changed to %20 sometime in the 90s.
>
>
And nobody informed the Belmopan Drag Queen Society?
--
Ascetic by nature, they derive satisfaction from the bare simplicity of their lives and scorn the amenities which others would consider essential.
Sir Wilfred Thesiger
Frank McQuarry
Mike McKinley wrote:
>
> Frank McQuarry wrote:
>
> >The customary 15% changed to %20 sometime in the 90s.
> >
> >
>
> And nobody informed the Belmopan Drag Queen Society?
Perhaps, one day we'll find a web reference for this.
DRS
3f4ec344$0$4186$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au
> "DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bile5a$ksb$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>> David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> 6b49c602.03082...@posting.google.com
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Tipping is based on etiquette rules of personal service. If someone
>>> does you a personal service, you tip. Therefore, you tip your
>>> barber, your waiter, your bellhop, your maid, etc. Or, you're an
>>> oaf. The choice is yours.
>>
>> That's an extremely parochial way of looking at it. Where I come
>> from service is included in the price. Therefore I don't tip
>> because that would mean I'm paying twice for the same service.
>
> I don't ordinarily tip, but it's for the reason that
> feeding a dependence on tips rather than fair
> wages is on the pathway to having a Working Poor.
Yes.
> As for differential tips- I'd regard it as degrading to
> be expected to assess workers that way. For them
> and me.
Yes.
> Mind you, I've no interest in patronising the kind
> of venue where tipping is Appropriate here.
>
> I both tip and 'forget' to bargain in, say, SE Asia.
Well, when in Rome and all that. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.
--
"I am gentle and wise, even inside my scrotum."
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030705.rvmaga/BNStory/Entertainment/
Mike McKinley
>I don't ordinarily tip, but it's for the reason that
>feeding a dependence on tips rather than fair
>wages is on the pathway to having a Working Poor.
>
>As for differential tips- I'd regard it as degrading to
>be expected to assess workers that way. For them
>and me.
>
>Mind you, I've no interest in patronising the kind
>of venue where tipping is Appropriate here.
>
>I both tip and 'forget' to bargain in, say, SE Asia.
>
>
>
>
Having been weaned on tequila along the Mexican border, I was
trained to tip and bargain. Both are expected cultural norms. I do
love visiting a country like Costa Rica where there is no tipping in
restaurants and bargaining in the marketplace is not so common. In
Mexico, one usually tips 10% (face it, Mexico has been corrupted by
gringo culture), but typically you must bargain like crazy in most
shopping situations as it is part of the shopping experience. The
Mexican painter is a fierce bargainer and there is a saying in Latin
America, "no te deja dar gato para liebre" or don't let them give you a
cat for a rabbit.
DRS
> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen:
>
>> Tipping requires learning quite a lot of social graces. When
>> to tip, when not to tip, how to tip, how much to tip. If you
>> transgress against these customs, you're considered either a
>> fool or an asshole, which can be rather nerve-racking.
>> (Especially if you're a sensitive soul like DRS and me.)
>
> Seems to me being a sensitive soul would be an inducement to
> acquiring the requisite experience, aka social graces. I
> suppose individual experience varies widely, but it never
> seemed that hard to me.
You grew up with it. I didn't. Moreover, the practice offends certain
Australian cultural assumptions as well as my personal politics.
DRS
v7d6eph...@fasolt.mtcc.com
> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <la...@gnus.org> writes:
>> ande...@wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>>
>>>> They're forcing me into a position I really don't want to be
>>>> in.
>>>
>>> In all due respect, that feeling could be more about you than
>>> about them.
>
>
> doesn't want to be forced.
Ooh, did you think that up all by yourself???
DRS
>
>>
>> Don't come to my country, arsehole. You'd hate it and we'd hate you.
>
> Australia's even a more racist country than the USA.
What the fuck would you know about it?
> I don't intend
> on ever setting foot there.
We'll be sure to count our blessings.
Michael Thomas
> Ruth Lawrence <curly...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> > feeding a dependence on tips rather than fair
> > wages is on the pathway to having a Working Poor.
>
> Yes.
Er, no. Many jobs where tipping is customary are well paid
here. Bartenders, for example, usually make good money and
their jobs are highly desirable. Indeed, if tipping were
done away with many of these jobs *would* be minimum wage
jobs. Quickly. Manifestly.
> > As for differential tips- I'd regard it as degrading to
> > be expected to assess workers that way. For them
> > and me.
>
> Yes.
Er, no. If they're assholes or lazy or what have you it's
a way of showing it in no uncertain terms. When you get
crap service elsewhere, what recourse do you have? None.
> Well, when in Rome and all that. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.
You poor, poor thing.
--
Michael Thomas (mi...@mtcc.com http://www.mtcc.com/~mike/)
It's ironic: these old people are being kept alive by the
organs of the people they run over.
*Chief Wiggums* <-- Hi Alex!
Michael Thomas
> > Australia's even a more racist country than the USA.
>
> What the fuck would you know about it?
About the same as you know about QEftSG.
DRS
> "DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> writes:
>>> Australia's even a more racist country than the USA.
>>
>> What the fuck would you know about it?
>
> About the same as you know about QEftSG.
I've seen enough of QEftSG to comment. But I've already said that at least
twice before, so as usual you're just being a fool.
John Higdon
Michael Thomas <mi...@mtcc.com> wrote:
> "DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> writes:
> > Ruth Lawrence <curly...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> > > I don't ordinarily tip, but it's for the reason that
> > > feeding a dependence on tips rather than fair
> > > wages is on the pathway to having a Working Poor.
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Er, no. Many jobs where tipping is customary are well paid
> here. Bartenders, for example, usually make good money and
> their jobs are highly desirable. Indeed, if tipping were
> done away with many of these jobs *would* be minimum wage
> jobs. Quickly. Manifestly.
A waiter at a place I frequent in downtown San Jose is a recreational
pilot as well as owning a sailboat. I have known many people who have
been waiters and they never took a backseat to anyone in terms of being
comfortable.
I know a couple of waiters in the Sacramento area who put together
enough money to open their own restaurant. Last I heard, they were doing
pretty well.
Waiting tables in a real, sit-down restaurant is not to be compared to a
fast food job.
> > > As for differential tips- I'd regard it as degrading to
> > > be expected to assess workers that way. For them
> > > and me.
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Er, no. If they're assholes or lazy or what have you it's
> a way of showing it in no uncertain terms. When you get
> crap service elsewhere, what recourse do you have? None.
Many people have an aversion to "merit pay". Just look at the hue and
cry that went up when such a thing was suggested for teaching. Some
people don't like the idea that one is rewarded for what he
accomplishes. These people ought to savor the world of self-employment
some time.
--
John Higdon | Email Address Valid | SF: +1 415 428-COWS
+1 408 264 4115 | Anytown, USA | FAX: +1 408 264 4407
Mike McKinley
>"DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> writes:
>
>
>Well, when in Rome and all that. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.
>
>
> You poor, poor thing.
>
>
I remember how sucky the service in restaurants was in Rome. Gurl!
And I spoke decent Italian. The rest of Italy was fine, but Rome? And
don't let me commence about the Roman stagehands. Of course, that was
when Jess was dating Hadrian. They were soooooo cute in their little
peplums!
Mike McKinley
>Michael Thomas <mi...@mtcc.com> wrote in message
>v7znhsf...@fasolt.mtcc.com
>
>
>>"DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> writes:
>>
>>
>>>>Australia's even a more racist country than the USA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>What the fuck would you know about it?
>>>
>>>
>>About the same as you know about QEftSG.
>>
>>
>I've seen enough of QEftSG to comment. But I've already said that at least
>twice before, so as usual you're just being a fool.
>
>
>
Kiwi girlfriend, you need to move on to new and fresh topics to
pique your choler.
DRS
spam-bait-72E54...@equine.announcetech.com
[...]
> Many people have an aversion to "merit pay". Just look at the hue and
> cry that went up when such a thing was suggested for teaching. Some
> people don't like the idea that one is rewarded for what he
> accomplishes. These people ought to savor the world of self-employment
> some time.
I'm living it. It's got fuck-all to do with what Ruth and I are talking
about.
DRS
binpmu$bvq$2...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu
[...]
> Kiwi girlfriend, you need to move on to new and fresh topics to
> pique your choler.
Soul-sister, you've got me severely confused with a certain psychotic from
San Francisco.
Michael Thomas
> Michael Thomas <mi...@mtcc.com> wrote in message
> v7znhsf...@fasolt.mtcc.com
> > "DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> writes:
> >>> Australia's even a more racist country than the USA.
> >>
> >> What the fuck would you know about it?
> >
> > About the same as you know about QEftSG.
>
> I've seen enough of QEftSG to comment.
Which is why your comment to DAK is so rich. Because he
too has seen enough of Australia by your counting to
comment.
DRS
> "DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> writes:
>> Michael Thomas <mi...@mtcc.com> wrote in message
>> v7znhsf...@fasolt.mtcc.com
>>> "DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> writes:
>>>>> Australia's even a more racist country than the USA.
>>>>
>>>> What the fuck would you know about it?
>>>
>>> About the same as you know about QEftSG.
>>
>> I've seen enough of QEftSG to comment.
>
> Which is why your comment to DAK is so rich. Because he
> too has seen enough of Australia by your counting to
> comment.
So critiquing the complex social attitudes of a country you've never been to
is now equivalent to commenting on the premise of a TV show? Your stupidity
only grows.
John Higdon
"DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> wrote:
> I'm living it. It's got fuck-all to do with what Ruth and I are talking
> about.
Sorry to intrude in your private conversation.
Michael Thomas
> > too has seen enough of Australia by your counting to
> > comment.
>
> So critiquing the complex social attitudes of a country you've never been to
> is now equivalent to commenting on the premise of a TV show?
The common thread is parading your uninformed opinion
around as if it were unassailable. That's why you're both
three letter D people. But as far as it goes, DAK's idiocy
was a lot closer to target than your uninformed stupidity
surrounding QEftSG. And I've been to Oz.
Michael Thomas
> Michael Thomas wrote:
>
> >"DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> writes:
> > Well, when in Rome and all that. Doesn't mean I have to like it
> > though.
>
> > You poor, poor thing.
>
> I remember how sucky the service in restaurants was in Rome.
> Gurl! And I spoke decent Italian. The rest of Italy was fine,
> but Rome? And don't let me commence about the Roman stagehands.
> Of course, that was when Jess was dating Hadrian. They were
> soooooo cute in their little peplums!
It's really startling to an American at how awful service
is abroad. And it's like a national pastime for local
patrons to whine about how awful the service is, etc.
This simply doesn't happen here. It's completely obvious
what changes the cycle.
DRS
> "DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> writes:
>> Michael Thomas <mi...@mtcc.com> wrote in message
>>> Which is why your comment to DAK is so rich. Because he
>>> too has seen enough of Australia by your counting to
>>> comment.
>>
>> So critiquing the complex social attitudes of a country you've never
>> been to is now equivalent to commenting on the premise of a TV show?
>
> The common thread is parading your uninformed opinion
> around as if it were unassailable.
Uninformed? I've seen enough of QEftSG to comment on its premise. This
bullshit about me being uninformed is your invention, merely yet another
fantasy from Michael Thomas Al-Sahaf. Have the Americans reached Baghdad
yet? Are you still beating them off with your slippers?
> That's why you're both
> three letter D people. But as far as it goes, DAK's idiocy
> was a lot closer to target than your uninformed stupidity
> surrounding QEftSG.
I know what I was talking about with regard to QEftSG since I've seen enough
of it to comment on its premise.
> And I've been to Oz.
So?
Michael Thomas
Speaking of which, one thing I've never quite groked is
the custom of "rounding up" which is popular in many
non-tipping countries -- France at least. So, like, if the
bill comes to something that there's little or nothing to
round up to -- say it was $39.57 -- how does one handle
the situation? Just give them the $.43 and no insult
implied?
DRS
> Mike McKinley <mpmck...@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
>> Michael Thomas wrote:
>> I remember how sucky the service in restaurants was in Rome.
>
> Speaking of which, one thing I've never quite groked is
> the custom of "rounding up" which is popular in many
> non-tipping countries -- France at least.
You poor, poor thing.
--
"I am gentle and wise, even inside my scrotum."
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030705.rvmaga/BNStory/Entertainment/
Chris Ambidge
>>Another idea: Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean it's
>>not widespread.
[jank+]
>Exactly! So... what's a "barber," anyway?
fie! not to say for shame! have you never seen the best
cartoon of all time, Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd in *Barber of
Seville*???
you should rectify this gap in your education at the earliest
opportunity.
manly panda
who thinks that "barbering" has something to do with the rabbit standing
behind you in a chair and massaging your scalp, first with his ears and
later with his toes
Michael Thomas
> Michael Thomas <mi...@mtcc.com> wrote in message
> v7isogf...@fasolt.mtcc.com
> > "DRS" <d...@removethis.ihug.com.au> writes:
> >> Michael Thomas <mi...@mtcc.com> wrote in message
> >>> Which is why your comment to DAK is so rich. Because he
> >>> too has seen enough of Australia by your counting to
> >>> comment.
> >>
> >> So critiquing the complex social attitudes of a country you've never
> >> been to is now equivalent to commenting on the premise of a TV show?
> >
> > The common thread is parading your uninformed opinion
> > around as if it were unassailable.
>
> Uninformed? I've seen enough of QEftSG to comment on its premise.
You've never sat through a single show. Not even once.
And it shows every time you talk about it because your
opinions of the show are so far off base for those of us
who have. As in uninformed. Which is on a par with DAK's
uninformed jab at Oz.
DRS
[...]
> You've never sat through a single show. Not even once.
> And it shows every time you talk about it because your
> opinions of the show are so far off base for those of us
> who have. As in uninformed. Which is on a par with DAK's
> uninformed jab at Oz.
I don't have to have sat through every second of every episode to comment on
its premise, Michael Thomas Al-Sahaf.
David W. Fenton
<BB73F49A.F402%cor...@telus.net>:
>I'm programmed to tip even for bad service which is always a
>subjective call at best.
It depends on why the service is bad. An overworked waiter doesn't
deserve to be penalized for being assigned so many tables that she
can't serve them all well.
On the otherhand, rude and insulting service deserves to be
penalized.
I was once in a restaurant with friends when the drink order was
repeatedly screwed up (it took 4 tries to get it right!), including
a Martini that was requested with a twist (the person ordering it
never drank a Martini with an olive and so would never
"accidentally" order it with one). The second try that came back
was just the olive Martini with the olive replaced with a twist,
which was immediately detectable by anyone who's ever consumed a
Martini. I can't remember what happened with the other drinks, but
the Martini thing was the one that sticks in my mind.
And it just got worse from there, including serving the wrong main
course for not just one but two of the members of our dining party.
When this was pointed out the waiter, we were explicitly accused of
changing our minds once we'd seen the dishes.
After the meal the manager came over. We were expecting to get a
free round of drinks in apology for the multiple problems with the
service. Instead, the manager accused us of being troublemakers and
re-iterated the accusation that we'd changed our minds on our
orders.
We left not one penny in tip.
And we told the waiter and the manager that we were doing so.
This was also a party that routinely left tips in excess of 20% (we
were all poor, of course).
So, sometimes, it really is the right thing to not leave a tip.
--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
Gwendolyn Alden Dean
> The customary 15% changed to %20 sometime in the 90s.
Peaches tells me it differs by region and that now that I live in the
boonies, I should tip 15% not the 20% that was my standard in Atlanta
and the Bay Area. I don't do what she tells me, so now I'm single but I
tip well.
Gwendolyn
David W. Fenton
<binsv8$hqs$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>:
>Mike Thomas:
>
>>It's really startling to an American at how awful service
>>is abroad.
>
>I'm not all that well traveled, but I did not see bad service
>in Japan, England, Scotland, Germany, Austria or the
>Netherlands. In France, I've been in a couple cafés (but not
>restaurants) where the service was indifferent and/or surly.
I saw uniformly bad and neglectful service in Germany, mediocre in
Austria.
I tended to round up all payments to the nearest Mark in Germany,
and the nearest bill I happened to have in my pocket in Austria. I
got grateful reactions from everyone I did this with, from waiters
to cab drivers. In the few places that I visited repeatedly, I got
better service. Maybe it was because I was a regular. Maybe it was
because the appreciated the little extra bit.
I think it's wrong to attribute the differences in service culture
entirely to differences in culture. I think there's a much
different idea of the role of work and one's attitude to it and
this drives the differences far more than the whole tip thing.